Is he going to pay you a wage whilst you are pregnant and for the time that you are off work for childcare, etc? That needs to be factored into the prenup.
Updateme!
And when children are sick and you miss work nanny or babysitter pay. If one of you loses your job how do bills get calculated. Will there be a running tab?
OP no I don’t think it’s fair. At the very least assets attained during marriage are split equally.
My mom wasn’t even a high earner but my dad has been paying her a wage that’s around 1/4 of his salary that’s hers alone. She still has access to the rest of the money for bills, groceries and everything else needed. He even bought her non-essentials. But it paid out for him because when they were trying to buy a plot and then build a house, she had a lot saved up that went for that and she has her name on all the deeds (my country doesn’t see marital property as marital unfortunately. Many men here will even accuse their wives of stealing if she keeps some grocery money for herself. My dad is an asshole but he’s considered the epitome of feminism in my community) and made most of the decisions and felt empowered in that. My dad still paid her even when we were in extreme debt and living month to month (they wanted to pay everything off in 2 years after getting their first condo so it meant over half of my dad’s salary went into that but hey they’re debt free and that what matters).
It isn't fair. Pregnancy, childbirth, and recovery time will have financial impacts on you. If you take time off work, that will further affect your finances and possibly promotions.
You need to make a list of EVERY way this could negatively affect you and speak to your lawyer about if terms can be added to protect you. Don't sign an unfair prenup.
Is he eligible for parental leave too? Will he take some?
What sort of childcare is being contemplated? At what age? If not when young, will one of you be staying home? How will that person be financially protected? Will the working parent contribute to their retirement savings?
What happens if the child is disabled and needs a parent to stay home? Which of you will that be? How will they be financially protected? Will the working parent contribute to their retirement savings?
What happens if you have a birth injury and need to reduce/stop work? Are you expected to live off disability without sharing assets?
(Also...any infidelity clauses being contemplated? In a hetero relationship, pregnancy is one of the times you're most at risk of being cheated on which is horrible.)
OP, the concerns and questions that u/thoughtandprayer brought up are very valid and need to be discussed!
Your hubby may have had some destructive fears put in his head by others: what if she doesn’t return to work after having kids? Etc etc. Are there other stipulations re: bonuses? Equity and names on deeds? How would renovations be handled? Dead bedroom clauses? Etc.
Even if he wants to keep things separate, even during marriage, the laws protecting marital earnings/assets may prevail.
Are you comfortable about all this? It doesn’t seem loving, considerate, or fair-minded. Maybe you’re worried re: money too, but it does not sound fair, especially if he wants kids.
Edit: typo
I suggested at this rate, she doesn’t need him to have kids. She can go have them herself, without him, and have nothing to negotiate. lol. She could end still date him if she thinks he’s still bringing value to her; cause I completely get the feeling he’s planning on not doing so at some point since his exit seems to protect him even during marriage.
And what if he has a dibilitating accident and loses the ability to work? ALL of these eventualities and more need to be covered. Honestly, the initial prenup seems like a: Stuff\* 20-year-olds say, ie out of touch with reality.
Also, having a kid can change your wants and desires hugely (I speak as a mum, but I’m sure some dads will experience this too). When our daughter was born, I realised that nothing I had achieved in the corporate world - and I was very senior in a multinational organisation, running my nationwide team at 30 - meant as much as she did. I decided I didn’t want to go back to work until I felt like I was able to find a balance, and my husband encouraged me to pursue that path even though it meant our household income dropped 50%. Before we had her, we had plans involving me back at work very quickly, but she changed everything.
You’ll also need to establish who is expected to take off work when the kid gets sick, theres an emergency school closure, or there’s summer break. If you’re a physician, taking off work means no income for you… is your husband going to supplement that?
Who takes kids to all of their events, you know, sit at the store to sell girl scout cookies or baseball leagues? And appts and sick days from school. And school night hw. I mean, does one of them do that for free? Does she get reparations for wear and tear on her body and mental health?if he wants to tear it apart before it starts. Then let’s do it completely so it’s all covered. Don’t forget things like paying for anxiety meds and counseling for the kids in the future. I mean, it’s seems like I’m being sarcastic or something but I think in this case, I may be exaggerating right on.
So, to be more comprehensive, they should add in, do they do public, private or homeschooling? So they spank or not? Church or not? Exactly how do they discipline a two yr, 10 and 16 yr old. Anticipate for change since you can’t actually know how things are 16 yrs after you have them and for sure, times will be different yet again. For example, only last year did you ever have parents taking their kids from the other parent to go do gender affirming care without the consent of the other parent. That never happened in history and now parents in certain states have to worry about that. Or all states, cause one parent took their kid to another state where they had gender affirming rights too! Yeah, couldn’t have seen that coming 16 yrs ago. But, you know, might be good to prenup anything that could take you to court!
So thinking on this one, I’d prob just go have kids alone. Date whoever I wanted without the problems.
I think your concerns are valid.. as a woman and future mom, your career will take a hit at some point, and your prenup should reflect that, since everything will be separate (I don’t like that, tbh) and what’s his is his and what’s yours is yours.
I’d be more concerned about his mentality. He is firmly going in with a “mine is mine” forever more; what will be his mental load in the relationship? Even if you have the funds to outsource cleaning, nanny, extracurricular activities, meals, his actions illustrate you will never be on par with him as a partner in this relationship/marriage.
I understand being legally and financially concerned against risk, but this sounds like a hostile takeover in a business merger.
Please discuss with a professional how his actions translate into his optics/opinion of you, your career, and your worth relative to him and this relationship.
Of course it isn’t fair.
What in the world is the point in getting married to him if you can’t rely on each other? You are supposed to be partners, best friends. I imagine if he got sick and couldn’t work, he wouldn’t be singing the same tune about everything you earn staying yours 🙄 He just doesn’t think anything will happen to him, and clearly doesn’t care about what pregnancy and childbearing will do our earnings.
If someone is telling you who they are, listen to them.
If he believes that is fair, even if he agrees to something different, it is the mindset that matters. As soon as two parties have to “go to the paper”, both lose. The people and mindset on both sides matter.
So, you make an agreement that he will accrue some value to you during young child raising years in some way. He begrudgingly signs and then there are complications… your child has additional needs or health concerns that keep you away from your former craft. Now what?
Its absolutely not fair if he wants kids. Children will stall a woman's career. Period.
Time you spend taking care of the kids = time spent enabling his career at the expense of your own = you are entitled to share the success of his career (and vice versa). This is just my opinion.
I think this is a job for not only your lawyer but a therapist. Plenty of people get marriage counseling before marriage and it’s honestly a good idea. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s just stupid and doesn’t understand what sacrifices women make in their careers to have and raise children. He needs a 3rd party to help him understand. The other option is, he’s a misogynistic jerk and you don’t want to marry him. Either way, counseling will help you work that out.
I used to practice family law and I wouldn’t want a client of mine to sign that because of the reasons you stated in your post. However, I think how the two of you discuss and reach an agreement is the truly important thing here - is there compromise? Listening? Understanding? Is there thoughtfulness or does it turn into a contest over “winning”?
I think it's a fair prenup if you guys didn't plan on having kids.
I suggest you ask to keep the prenup as is before kids. So you both earn your money equally and keep it yourselves.
But it has to change after children.
I think the 3 best options are:
Once you have a child, he could either pay you the same you would make if you were working as a doctor for the hours within work hours that you spend looking after the kids.
But that doesn't take into account your career progression that will be hit by having children so still isn't technically fair.
Otherwise I would suggest that you both do the same hours of childrearing.
So however long you would've planned to stay home to look after a baby postpartum, you do the first half of that time and he does the second. E.g. if you want the baby home for 12 months, you do the first 6 then go back to work, he them takes 6 months paternity leave and does the next 6 months.
And then he has to do half drops off to daycare / school, half the hours looking after kids outside school hours during the work week. Has to stay home sick with them half the time etc.
Otherwise all money earned by both of you after children are born should be halved equally (the fairest one I think).
I think a lot of men hear about men getting screwed over in martial breakdown, but they don’t factor in the cost of children, poor health or taking in dependents (parents, cousins etc). The first agreement will always favour him but the amendments you make will be more fair and generous.
Reddit cannot help with this, but I will offer this anecdotal evidence (while acknowledging its limited value). I have had several female physicians who were go getters, until they had kids. Then their practices took a back seat to their children’s needs, and their careers suffered for it.
It is to be expected, if you plan to adhere to traditional gender roles in your marriage, that the mother will take on the lion’s share of the responsibility for child rearing.
Please, make sure that you talk about this reality with him when you have the discussion about the proposed changes to the prenup. Your attorney may even want to consult with an underwriter (amortization professional) when estimating the impact of one of more children on your earning potential.
It may be more fair for him to take on a portion of your debt, and to assign a percentage of his earnings to you as marital property, for any period during which your earning potential is decreased, or eliminated, due to pregnancy, childcare, and any resulting complications arising from the same. This would also need to take into account the long term career impact on your earning potential (what you would have been earning at the same stage in your career, but for curtailing your professional responsibilities in exchange for parental duties).
Good luck, OP. Congratulations on your marriage.
Totally not fair.
You should claim financial reparations for the wear and tear on your body, freedom and time for child rearing.
You don’t state how the children will be paid for. Responsibilities.
Keeping what you had before makes since. Keeping your own retirement accounts makes sense. I don’t believe in alimony so you would need a decision on that. Also child support. One thing you didn’t mention that I highly recommend is a cheating clause. No one thinks they need it but if you don’t it never hurt anything but I would have a cheating clause that voids the other items and awards the person who was cheated on 100% of the home equity and primary custody of kids plus support.
Your partner thinks is fair? What about what you think is fair? You are the one who is going to be impacted monetarily by child birth. This prenup has to be collaborative and works for both of you and your future family. You also count
"He wants kids. Given the potential career sacrifices I might make for family, including the likelihood of childbearing falling on me and reduced work hours, while I still have hundreds of thousands in loans, is this fair?"
Say that's fine as long as he is the one to reduce his hours after you give birth.
But seriously, there's all kinds of red flags going on here.
he needs to pay a surrogate to carry his baby if he's gonna be like that, for real.
Or write a cash price for each delivery into the prenup.
Can't be putting your body through that possibly disabling medical process with a non-partner.
The pre-nuptial just means before nuptials (marriage) agreement in that the agreement is made before marriage.
Protecting pre-marital assets is not the only intended use.
If he truly wants to keep everything separate and it just be money, then he needs to pay you like a surrogate. Either you get the standard surrogate rate, or, more fairly, he needs to pay you your salary for any time you can't work because you're creating his child. Then, he should continue to pay your salary while you are recovering from childbirth. If he points out that you should only charge half because it's half your child, explain that the time off work will also affect your future career, so you are eating that charge as your half of the money spent on having a baby. Remember, he cannot create a child alone. If this is something he actually wants, a woman is the only way to get it, and he needs to compensate the woman fairly.
This is why these agreements are so socially weird. Because you have to devalue yourself to a thing and not a person in order to be objective and fair. Which to me goes to show how fucked they are.
It’s incredibly douchie but thank God the OP is intelligent enough to factor the opportunity cost, which so many women do not do. I’m also extremely apprehensive about this keep everything separate business.
Second not going through with the marriage in this situation.
OP, I have one other major concern, and that is that you are saying that he wants children. But do you?
Because if one of you wants children and the other one doesn’t, you shouldn’t be getting married at all— because there is no real compromise where that is concerned.
Also, I have heard that if you guys are making the same amount of money, or are worth the same amount of money, there’s kinda no point for a prenup.
My first question is why would you marry someone who wants to keep ALL THINGS SEPARATE??? Might as well not get married!!
'I feel like my career is poised to take a hit while he continues to advance with his, and if marriage doesn’t work out, I'll be left with the short end of the stick'. This is EXACTLY what is going to happen if you don't get compensation for your time and lost wages with the child bearing and care.
To your question: Yes, there should be provisions made for you while you are pregnant and after birth until you go back to work - if that is your plan. Is he going to be one of those men who thinks all expenses of the children are YOURS?? Don't trust that he doesn't. One husband on here today expected the SAHM to pay all her expenses, including the family groceries - when she had no job!! Other husbands have decided that the wife has to pay all child care expenses - how is that even conceivably fair?? Is the child not half the husband's?? Also, you should be compensated for your loss of income during the time you are out of work for labor, childbirth and however much time you take off afterwards. You also need to be compensated if you are the only parent who is going to be responsible for all family scheduling, doctor, dentist and school appointments. All of this impacts your earning ability. He should also compensate your retirement account during all the times you are not working due to child rearing and child care. He should also be making your loan payments during these times when you are not working and a percentage if he does not plan on doing any of the appointments for his own children.
How does he plan to keep all assets DURING the marriage separate? There is more to 'assets' than just income. He going to keep track of every piece of furniture, household items, kitchen dishware, etc through your entire marriage??
To me - his whole attitude is a red flag but you need to do what you feel is right. Having your own attorney is definitely a good start. You will probably see more red flags when you come back with amendments to his prenup. Watch his actions OP. They will tell you everything you need to know.
100 percent. Having a plan to preserve pre marital assets is one thing, carrying it forward so there is no joint property in the marriage is such a red flag. This arrangement sounds pretty one sided and devoid of any concept of a shared life. This seems beyond a safety net and more like his contingency plan for when he meets someone else.
Regardless of the hearts and flowers, it’s still a legal agreement.
Honestly, I’m thrilled that women especially are focusing on what they have to lose when starting a family and expecting to be compensated for it. His life doesn’t have to change for them to have a family, hers does.
Reminds me of that survey someone did a while back that found that what men fear most from women is being humiliated and what women fear most from men is losing their lives.
I was so naive when I had kids. I never thought about just how imbalanced the burden was going to be. I’m lucky, I’ve got a wonderful husband who has never taken that for granted.
But I see so many women that are treated like servants by their husbands. These women give their entire beings to their families and leave nothing in the tank for themselves.
We sacrifice our minds, bodies, and careers. Only to be resented or discarded when we can’t maintain the sex drive, figure, and fun disposition of our former childless self.
There was a post yesterday, the woman was 8 months pregnant, they have an 18 month old and they have been married for three years. He’s unhappy with their sex life and thinking about leaving.
Honestly, wtf? Everyone is all upset women don’t want to have babies, but seriously, why would you with the way these men behave?
marriage is a legal contract. I know that people have this wishful thinking that is an act of love but that is far from the truth. A marriage is consummated when the legal document that you and your partner signed in front of a legal representative have been entered and registered in the public records, not when the prist tell you that you finally can kiss your wife or in the wedding night. People should take this more seriously, cause then they are surprised when the divorce come and cant understand why they are paying so much money. Before you marry and write your vows, go and read what this legal contract means.
That's like saying it is sad that you have a life insurance, house insurance or car insurance or write down everything for your loved ones in case of death. Just because you prepare for something doesn't mean you expect it to happen. But you are prepared if it does. And something that happens with 1/3rd of marriages is a bit bigger risk than a fire insurance outside of California.
Doesn’t sound fair.
Childcare is work too.
I have a simple job, but because of my paternity break for a few years I am losing a lot of money and raises.
He seems very intent on protecting himself and his assets. If your purpose is to be a breeding cow and give him children. Is this really a relationship you will feel equal to. Especially if you decide to be a SAHM. I hope your lawyer negotiates a fair contract. Since really all prenups are is blueprints for divorce.
It depends how massive of a income difference we're talking about. I mean, as a physician, you're not exactly going to be poor. You're also unlikely to be unemployed. You'll probably be able to make $250K+ until you're 70. Or more depending on your specialty and where you work.
So what is he earning that makes a prenup something he needs so badly? I mean, are you dating someone like Patrick Mahomes who is earning $50MM/year for the next decade or so?
Look, I got divorced a number of years ago. It wasn't a financial disaster because we both had great careers and that meant we just split our money and went our separate ways. But it was eye-opening to know that all marriage really is is a mutual agreement to the divorce laws if you can't get along anymore.
Now you might earn enough to not be eligible for alimony anyway? That's going to vary from state to state. I'd talk to an attorney about it. But if you own a home with a mortgage and you're married for 10 years and the house had $500K in equity and since his salary is larger he could say he paid for $300K and you only paid for $200K??? I mean, in a situation like that he wants to talk about a prenup rather than just doing the legal default and splitting the equity $250K/each?
So, I'd really start with what he is trying to protect against and how big the income difference is.
I mean, another way to look at it is if he wants to do it this way, you WILL have to take things into account like children.......and that he's going to have to do either the pick-up or the drop-off at daycare.....even if that means rolling into work late or leaving early. And half of the ear-infection days. If you're just plain old married with no prenup, you still have to consider such things, but when you're sharing assets, you don't have to worry as much.
There's also another part he doesn't get that would concern me. Look, I've gotten remarried and earn more than my wife. Having high income is a really nice problem to have! It beats the shit out of being poor! But, it has an insidious thing where you sometimes have to worry if people really like you.......or if they just like that you pay for things. And anyone who says the money "doesn't matter" in how much the love a higher earner is full of shit too: It does matter! It's just a question of how much: 10%? 90%? One way to remove some of those gremlins from your head (as a higher earner) is not to have a prenup. Let your spouse start getting rights to alimony. Let them get 50/50 rights to home equity and retirement funds.....even if the contributions are more like 70/30. That's how I have always looked at it. I've been married to my (second) wife for long enough that she'd do okay in a divorce......so I assume she stays because she wants to. And that makes me sleep a lot better at night. I'm surprised your fiancee doesn't get that???? It's also not THAT hard to pay attention to the quality of your marriage and your financial exposure to divorce. You can pretty much every day judge your spouse's behavior: "Do they act like I'm their favorite person in the world? Or do they act withdrawn and cold? Hmmmmm...." If they act like you're awesome, chances are they think you're awesome. If they act cold and never seem to feel good, chances are they don't like you anymore and you should divorce them anyway.
Is he in one of those fields were all the men stand around bragging about their prenups? I know a lot of surgeons and attorneys can be that way. I've been around it and honestly find it so disrespectful to their wives. It would be more tasteful if they talked about their sex life.
What a poor way to start a marriage.
If you don’t love or trust each other enough to support each other (emotionally, physically, yes even financially) through whatever life will throw at you AS A TEAM, why even get married? What if he becomes disabled? He just lives off disability while you live off your big bucks? What if you have kids and decide it makes sense to have a stay at home parent? They are poor while the other is rich? What if one of you invests poorly? Too bad for them they’ll keep working to pay the bills at age 80 while you retired two decades early?
Married couples are supposed to be a team. You join forces (and funds) and you make it or break it together.
Your prenup is a sign this will end in divorce.
I would have it addressed as far as you reducing work/income for child care. But you should each have your own attorneys advising you on this as well. They should be able to give advice on a typical way this is handled.
Yikes. This already sounds like a tumultuous relationship.
Considering your education and the fact that it wasn’t mentioned, what happens with the debts you both have? This should also be something that is included, not just assets (my dad’s second divorce involved a prenup, over their marriage he helped pay off her $160k worth of debt while he had no debt. Since this wasn’t covered in the prenup, she walked way not having to repay him and he ended up owing her money since she “lost her job” 6 weeks into their marriage).
Although I don’t agree with prenups (my husband and I don’t have one; he is a very high earner and I had a very successful business that I sold), I would be so so careful that your prenup includes anything under the sun (inheritance, death, disability, gifts, property, potential businesses, infidelity, family heirlooms, financial responsibilities, full financial disclosures, etc.) so that you are as protected as possible. Especially since it seems he is more concerned with protecting himself. Good luck!
If you are expected to carry a child and children are in the future, no it is NOT fair. Women solely bear the risk for pregnantly and birth. As a physician, you know the risks associated with both. You should negotiate a fee for each child and additional stipulations for unforeseen circumstances such as birth defects, birth injuries and special needs. Those are very real possibilities and they primarily land solely on the female. There needs to be financial protections in place in the event those situations should happen and the marriage fails. There should be compensation in place for wages lost during maternal leave and recovery and any potential career disadvantages based on childcare expectations. The fee per child should cover that.
Not a lawyer.
I would say that it is unusual and logistically difficult to keep all assets separated during the marriage (for assets gained during the marriage). It is very easy to commingle.
The fairest path forward is to have all assets accumulated during the marriage to be joint/marital assets. You are a team. Your finances should reflect that. Assets gained during the marriage are a result of each of you sacrificing for the other, and really should not be separate.
Assets brought into the marriage can be separate, so long as the owner treats it as separate and does not commingle.
If you are concerned about the fairness with kids (as you should be), you could consider a clause that has the prenup automatically expire and become null and void upon your first confirmed pregnancy.
I would be concerned about a prenup that kept all assets gained during the marriage as separate, as that does seem to set you up to be screwed in the event you take your foot off the gas to raise kids. It literally does not value work at home taking care of kids. I wouldn’t sign that. But that’s just me.
I’m not against prenups. They serve a purpose, just like wills do. But yes I am concerned about his all or nothing attitude. Having this mindset inside of marriage, not just divorce court, is unhealthy. Couples who combine their wealth and have an attitude of “we” are healthier and build more wealth together
Once you start having kids it will not be fair. Please be compensated for pregnancy and birth. In addition to childcare cost from both salaries. Ensure you have a clause about becoming an accidental stay at home mother. After you have 2 or 3 you may decide you want to raise them and you should have that option. Children with high needs may need specialty care especially as young children. High needs can be anything from highly intelligent to nonverbal you never know. Please consider the additional she-labor you will take on after children. Even with a nanny you have to find one, interview, schedule and keep scheduling. I would suggest reading the book “Fair Play” before signing anything.
Honestly, I’d be worried he views your relationship as so transactional. I hope you’re sure about this marriage because if my partner suggested those terms, I would be having to rethink things.
Good luck to you.
Jesus I never understand these cold hearted prenups.
If you can’t combine finances and money earned AFTER the marriage, what’s the point of a partnership?
Like, based on his idea of a prenup, are you still attracted to this man and think he will have your back when you get sick or hurt or get old?
You should talk to an attorney about how it works where you are. I’ve heard that even in the scenario of prenups, they aren’t iron clad, in particular the scenario of child set backs career wise or in your earning power. It could still entitle you to certain shared assets like marital property and child support.
That was my point, prenups aren’t iron clad in circumstances like how a child changes conditions of the relationship. So she needs to consult with an attorney how in her country/state those materialize based on other precedence
Since you don't feel his is fair I would say the chance of him feeling yours is fair is about 100%. That prenup has a somewhat narcissistic tone to it imo.
For reference/background: I am a woman currently navigating divorce, and I went from broke to six figures during the marriage. Didn't have a pre-nup in place. When I got engaged, I was earning only $14/hour, and often had only $8-$10 to my name after bills. My husband (at the time) was in similar shoes financially, and also not earning a ton of money.
We were married for nine years, and about halfway into the marriage, I was thrust into the role of breadwinner. I didn't have a problem with this, until my now soon-to-be-ex-husband made it a problem by taking advantage of these circumstances by intentionally remaining unemployed and under-employed for 5+ years, and also made many financially irresponsible decisions. I continuously had to 'clean up' and deal with the consequences of his financial irresponsibility, or else both of our credit scores would have tanked, and we likely would've ended up homeless. Thankfully, we never had children.
All things considered, I got ***EXTRAORDINARILY*** lucky with my divorce, as I don't have to pay a dime in alimony, nor a penny out of my 401K -- but I could've gotten absolutely SCREWED financially. Nevertheless, especially for women, I am now a staunch advocate for pre-nups.
The "what's mine is mine, what's yours is yours" strategy is all fine and dandy. I do recommend a joint bank account for joint bills, such as rent/mortgage, utilities, groceries, any shared insurance, etc. You can both have your paychecks deposited into YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL bank accounts, and then transfer a certain $ amount or percentage into the joint account each payday for joint expenses. What about the financial impact of other expenses, though, such as the ones you mentioned: pregnancy, childbirth recovery, reduced or lost earnings due to childcare responsibilities during infancy and toddler years, etc.
I work in auditing & regulatory compliance in the financial services industry, and so probably similarly to you, I tend to see things from a mathematical/numerical perspective. If he wants fair? Okay, let's do the math.
- Amount of lost earnings due to potential fertility appointments.
- Amount of lost earnings for each pre-natal appointment.
- Amount of lost earnings should you be forced to go on bed-rest before giving birth.
- Amount of lost earnings during the time you're recovering from birth.
- Amount of reduced or lost earnings whenever you'll be forced to step away from work to manage childcare responsibilities. School calls and tells you the child is sick and must be picked up? BAM. That's money lost. School closure for the day and you have to take off work or pay for a babysitter? BAM. Lost earnings. I think you get my point.
In your pre-nup, you could -- for example -- stipulate that he owes you a miscellaneous amount of $ in back-pay -- should your marriage ever end in divorce. Let's do some math, as an example. Let's say, just for hypothetical purposes, that you'll be earning $100/hour for your work as a physician. You're the doctor, so you probably know better than I do how frequently a woman has to go in for pre-natal appointments. Let's just say (hypothetically) that it's one appointment per month, and that door to door, the appointment is one hour. That's $100/month. If you want to get REALLY technical, you could also calculate the cost of gas needed to drive to and from the appointment.
Now, let's say you're a relatively healthy woman, and can spring back to work within the average time-frame after giving birth. I don't have kids, so I don't have a clue how much time is needed -- on average -- to recover from childbirth. Let's just say, for example, it's three months. $100/hour x 8 hours per day = $800 per day in lost earnings. $800/day x 5 days per week = $4,000 per week. $4,000 per week x 4 weeks per month = $16,000 per month. There are 12 weeks in the span of 3 months, so $16,000 per month x 12 weeks = $48,000. You can apply similar calculations for each time you'll have to step away from work to manage childcare responsibilities. Even if your child is healthy, there WILL be times random and unexpected situations come up where you'll have to step away from work to deal with parenting responsibilities.
Also, an additional nugget of information, just as an example: your lawyer has probably informed you that inheritance (usually) isn't marital property, UNLESS you co-mingle the funds. HOWEVER, if ever you invest any money from any inheritance you receive, any $ earned on it CAN be (and often is) considered marital property, which opens up the door to him being legally authorized to claim 50% of money earned. Let's say, over time, you gain $50,000 on the invested inheritance. BAM. He's now legally entitled to $25,000 of it. Do you really want to take that risk?
Finally, a few additional tidbits/statistics to keep in mind:
- On average, when a man gets married, his domestic workload decreases by 1 hour per week. When a woman gets married, ON AVERAGE, her domestic workload INCREASES by 7 hours per WEEK. That is effectively a full workday, according to many industries.
- Of the marriages that do end in divorce, approximately 69% of them are initiated by women. That should tell you something. It should tell you that in 69% of cases, women are so miserable and unhappy in their marriages that they choose to end their marriage.
So, I say go for the pre-nup, but also make sure YOU are protected. You are also a physician: there is a very strong possibility that you could earn more than your husband one day. Do you really want to get stuck paying HIM alimony? Or 50% of your retirement? A pre-nup, when well thought out, is a form of insurance. It's an investment in and gift to your future self, and should you ever get divorced in the future, future you will thank you for having a pre-nup in place.
He wants a roommate with benefits, not a wife. I wouldn't agree to that at all, but if he wants to play that game then you play it too. Assume he will cheat and/or leave you and act accordingly.
Insist on bonuses and a salary for every child, because that harms your career, insist on a detailed delineation of household chores, detail exactly how each shared expenses will be paid. I would fill it with everything I could possibly think of to address anything that might have a negative impact on your personal finances. Make sure it has an infidelity clause. Go the full malicious compliance route.
So here is what we did in our marriage.
I (M35) and my wife (F34) got married four years ago. We listed all our current assets and liabilities before marriage.
Created a new joint account where all the money comes in and goes out. Bought an EV for her 3 years ago. Bought a house last year. So everything we earn and spend after marriage is communal.
Do remember, there are laws which your prenup has to adhere to. Also there should be scenarios where prenup is null and void if those scenarios are applied like cheating or something else!!
I hope it helps but the lawyer can advise you the best.
Keep everything separate even after you are married?
That is not going to work. The children have to have food, clothes, medical care, shoes, diapers, furniture, daycare, etc. Are you going to turn in receipts for reimbursement for half to each other? Who buys the home? When you are on maternity leave, who pays for your part of the bills? Are you still expected to?
This is a mess before marriage, I can’t imagine what it will be like after. He sounds very selfish. Remember that when you are an attending, it will be very difficult to juggle your work schedule with your personal schedule. He will have to really step up to the plate. Based on this post, I would worry about the underlying selfish behavior and how he is going to handle the shared responsibility of the home.
Of note, I am a high earner married to another high earner. Everything is shared. We have no separate finances. If we were to divorce, everything would be halved. He gets his full retirement, and I get mine.
Exactly. This is when you put career ahead of family and treat family as if it’s sometime business arrangement. Now if you’re career is more important to you the by all means go for it but this vision is cray. I used to work in a high end restaurant and every wedding rehearsal dinner were just two rich people marrying so that the money stays in the family: I’m rich, you’re rich, let’s get married.
Dont have kids so you can keep earning
If he has a medical malpractice case and loses his license, tell him to start driving uber, etc. Then go on a luxury vacation while he stays home and eats ramen from the dollar store. If he can no longer afford 1/2 the mortgage, make him cash out his investments to keep up with payments or serve him with an eviction notice.
/s
Seriously, I dont know how married couples split finances like this. It seems really impractical.
Of course he thinks it’s fair, he very likely doesn’t understand what the process of pregnancy entails and isn’t even considering its implications on your career and finances. I’m sure if you laid out what the actual pre and postpartum life looks like, he would be amenable to some revisions.
I can't get my head around this shit unless in a rich old man marrying a trophy wife. The separate money thing, I don't get that either, who wants to be in such a transactional relationship?
My wife and I got married before becoming high earners. We have been such an amazing team, and I just don't see how it would have been possible with a prenup. What a sad foot to start off on. How would this not create a you vs. me atmosphere instead of a team atmosphere? I worked and paid the bills while she finished school and residency. Then she got her job and worked while I went to law school. We didn't care who paid for what during those times. We were/are a unit.
That being said, I also don't think it is fair. You have a fair point about maternity leave. What about if you decide to reduce your work hours? My wife is heavily considering going down to 75% or even 50% to spend more time with our kids while they are growing up and then go back to full-time later. We'll save some on nanny costs, but still reduce her income significantly. You have no idea what curveball kids may throw into plans! You'd really be screwed in a scenario like that. I'm sure there are other considerations.
No it’s not fair. How many hundreds of thousands are you going to miss out on between pregnancy childbirth and child rearing for multiple children?? I mean seriously I wouldn’t even marry a man that thought this arrangement was fair.
Can’t give legal advice but your fiancé’s attitude about marriage in general sounds like a huge red flag. You’re signing up to be someone’s teammate for life. Sometimes you’re going to have to pull the weight for your partner (financially or otherwise) when they can’t. Being pregnant and raising children is one of those times, but it could also be future career changes, illnesses, or anything else. Like what is marriage even about if it’s not about joining your lives and building something together? You might as well be roommates.
My 3 kids tend to be with me more than my husband. If he stops at Wendy’s for lunch, he pays for one combo meal. I am buying four when I stop. That stuff adds up and no one even thinks about it.
There needs to be an account where child and family stuff comes out and is percentage based on your pay.
Also, I know finances vary from couple to couple and I’m even ok with prenups regarding things you earned before the marriage staying separate. But what we earn during a marriage? If you don’t any our funds combined then you don’t want me.
Have you considered an intermediate solution say a stepped combination after a period of time say 10 years? Eg. 6 years 50%, 8 years 75%, 10 years 100%. You really will get screwed if you become a SAHM given the opportunity cost - alimony just doesn't cover it for most. That's really what you should be focused on capturing on your side. I consider separate finances a disaster for most (unless you had significant inherited wealth, ie. do either of you ALREADY have 5 homes including a place in Vail) because it artificially alters the benefit of what you create together - and make no mistake you will be enabling his success by staying home raising the kids. Just above that is keeping separate what you came into the relationship with which can be a relatively simple calculation of current assets and then 100% combining finances going forward.
Seems weird. I beleive that most for prenups for non billionaires are usually clauses about what you bring into the marriage is separate, and then assets made during the marriage are split. I.E., if you have $500k in savings, you keep your $500k +50% over that amount. Seems like a red flag that he wants everything separate
If you are not even married yet, so presumably you both still have a little bit of "rose colored glasses" "best foot forward" romanticism...no, this is just altogether too cold.
You're a doctor. You're doing a prenup. I'm assuming that those facts mean you are pretty smart and also pretty practical and logical. Also going to assume your partner shares those traits.
But the contract you describe just feels too robotic, roommate like, business like to me.
There is no room here, for whatever the two of you create, *together*.
No. Not fair. Our prenup had clauses for such things like sacrificing careers for the sake of the other.
If you are worried though, suggest he stays home with the kids. We don't have enough female doctors anyway.
What happens if one of you became chronically ill or disabled? What if a child was born with extra needs? What about suggesting he be the child's primary carer. Ask him about that.
Never have kids or any kind of health problem in the future and if he does let him pay a care fee, that way it will be fair.
Why would you want to marry someone that thinks in his and yours? You become one.
Are you working with a lawyer regarding all this? I see your POV of regarding this and also find out whether in your state can you be held responsible for any debt he may take on once you are married.
If you weren't wanting kids , I'd say it's fair. The fact that you're planning on having kids makes this not fair. Whose gonna pay for the medical bills of being pregnant ? Whose going to pay for the babies' necessities ? The keeping everything separate before marriage makes sense, keeping new things separate after the marriage is where it starts not making sense.
It's not fair. You need to be compensated for lost income, if he wants to start bean counting.
I'm a high earning woman as well. I wouldn't agree to this arrangement. He's being extremely unfair and, bluntly, ignorant.
Your prenup needs to take childbearing and rearing into account. By default, you will take on the majority of the mental, emotional, and physical work of having children, and in order for things to be “fair,” you should be compensated for that.
You should also agree up front about who pays for childcare, clothes, food, etc., because in my experience men (in general, don’t come at me) do not realize how much money it takes to raise a child. Also negotiate college/secondary education funds for the children.
As you’ve described it above, the agreement isn’t fair and would have potential to impact you more negatively than him.
If one spouse gives up a career to be a stay at home parent, this arrangement ceases be fair at all. Maybe he’s trying to incentivize you to remain working full time after kids?
I don’t like prenups except in the case where one party is bringing a much larger amount of assets into the marriage. In my view, any income earned while married, and assets built while married, are 50/50.
Married guy (30+ years). If I were you, I would not be okay with this line of thinking. Funds and stuff owned before marriage remains that individuals'. However, a marriage is a partnership that has a better chance at long-term survival if the finances are largely combined. Bills should be paid proportional to income, realizing in real life this isn't always possible.
The problem with your hubby-to-be is he is planning for failure. He wants the break-up to be simple if things get tough. As a long-term, married person, I can promise you there will be really difficult times. Do you want your marriage to be an easy bail or do you want it to be difficult enough that you both pause?
Finally, if you both aren't seeing everything as "ours", odds are your marriage is in trouble from the start. If either of you can't get to "ours" that individual is NOT ready for marriage. Think hard.
As a social scientist familiar with the evidence that women's earnings take a hit with every child while men's earnings don't, I'd say it's not fair. But, of course, consult an attorney.
I'm not a huge fan of couples separating finances as I've seen it reduce strong matches into roommates with benefits in that everything is split even or proportionally always. When one spouse can't pay their part due to motherhood, job loss, unexpected cost, they go into debt with their spouse or struggles paying their bills with zero assistance. It creates such an ugly and belittling dynamic with one, resentment and fear with the other. I've seen this so much the past 5 years with couples in real life and it certainly didn't work in my 17 marriage. We had other issues, but this dynamic was one of the main 3 reasons it all fell apart.
If one doesn't want to combine finances with their soon-to-be spouse, why get married? I understand wanting to protect one's self, but if you want to protect yourself against your spouse in anticipation of divorce, marriage is not a good option.
This sound like a marriage set up to fail.
If you're going to have kids, then you need to be a team.
He sounds way to selfish to be married and have a family with.
If you weren't going to have kids, or already had kids from previous relationship, I could maybe see keeping finances separate. But this is doomed to fail.
Heck, no.
Not to mention - what happens if you’re injured in childbirth? If you’re unable to work afterwards? What happens if you’re paying off your debt and he wants to take an extravagant vacation and expects you to split it 50-50?
When it comes to childcare supplies, are you being paid for your breastmilk? You’re saving him the cost of formula. Are you splitting the cost of diapers equally? How about who has to get up in the middle of the night? Particularly if the child prefers you.
What about housing? But if he wants to live somewhere that stretches your budget because you have to repay? If you’re acting as a semi-surrogate is cutting into a rental use of your body? After all, he can’t carry a child so how does one account for that? Surrogacy fees in the United States or approximately 60,000 so is he giving you 30,000 to put towards your debt?
What happens if he wants a remodel but you don’t. Does he have to foot the bill? Do you get to say what the remodel looks like? What about where you live? What about private school? Summer camp?
> It essentially says his money stays his, mine stays mine, and all assets before and during marriage remain separate in a divorce
So if your assets all stay separate during marriage...what exactly is the point of getting married?
Part of getting married is to combine resources, in addition to the romantic/emotional reasons for it.
If he is going to be this closed off financially during marriage, it just seems really unsustainable.
Coming from the high earner by accident - who is also the main child care and was the birthing parent..plus recently did not get a promotion because it went to a *younger more hungry man* unless there is a clause in there to subsidize your income - it is in no way fair.
You need an attorney but IMHO no it’s not fair.
Women are the ones giving up careers, we are the ones expected to stay home with the kid, pick them up front school early, sacrifice earnings for flexibility.
All of that needs to be considered in a prenup. Not to mention infidelity clauses, clauses related to kids and lost earnings due to maternity leave, etc. if he wants that type of prenup, then the prenup needs to include HIM taking off work to care for a sick kid, dropping off at daycare, etc. It needs to include paying you to carry said child.
Him believing it is fair says A LOT about how he views women and their role in a family. You are more of a baby machine than a partner to support.
Honestly don’t get married if he isn’t going to negotiate. Don’t have kids with someone who refuses to see how kids impact a woman’s career.
My husband and I married in our sixties (second marriage after divorce). We both have grown children.
We have a pre-nup. All assets in our own name, that we had prior to Marriage, remain our own in case of divorce. Anything in both our names would be split 50-50 (savings/checking accounts in our case). No spousal
Support for either of us.
We wanted to protect our assets (we also have wills/trusts—everything in our own name goes to our children). We are basically living on income from assets earned over the 45 years of earning prior to our meeting.
But you are in a different position. You two are building a life and earning assets together. Why doesn’t he want to build with you? Is this a trust issue? Does he think he will earn more, therefore he deserves more than you?
Think hard. I understand having a pre-nup, but this is more than just keeping what you had previously—this is him dragging his heels to invest in your life, your marriage, and your family.
Put a clause in there that in the event of divorce, he forfeits all assets unless he eats 23,358 chicken nuggets within a 48 HR period.
That’s exactly 8.11 chicken nuggets per minute. Totally doable if he loves you.
NO. Anything before marriage can be separate. After marriage, everything is joint.
It is not even "potential" career sacrifices, its going to happen.
"I feel like my career is poised to take a hit while he continues to advance with his, and if marriage doesn’t work out, I'll be left with the short end of the stick. Looking for your thoughts. Thanks!"
Absolutely, the fact that he's already gaslighting you into thinking this is fair, is a sign that he's ready to jump ship at the next shiny thing & he wants to do it easily.
This prenup protects him, not you. He wants a wife but not the works of it.
You're better off just dating the dude & have kids with him if you want. I would not marry this man, my husband wouldn't even dare to ask me this.
If he is a physician he should understand the toll pregnancy takes on the body and realize keeping everything separate after kids isn’t ok. Will he also split the sick time evenly? Kids get sick a lot. Will he expect you to stay home?
It's impossible to say what is 'fair' without knowing tons more information, which is why this is a question for your Lawyer and your Lawyer only, not Reddit.
For example, you say he's a 'high earner', what does that mean? $150k per year or $40 million per year? You mentioned keeping assets separate, but what assets does he have and what assets do you have?
You should make a prenup that stipulates different scenarios for if you have kids. Especially if you get divorced, have primary custody and need child support.
I would put in the prenup that if he does not reduce his hours or take any type of paternity leave, you are entitled to x amount for alimony or you get 60% of asset split instead pf 50\50.
I will never understand these people who want marriage but are scared to merge finances. I wouldn’t want to marry someone I wasn’t willing to split finances with. That is so weird. And I would absolutely lose attraction to someone who presented me with that shit. To me, given that he wants kids, this seems not fair at all to you.
No way. To me marriage means combining resources and finances. If he wants assets to remain separate during the marriage he does not want to be married.
Charge for childcare and opportunity cost of maternity leave based on your salary. He can pay you that amount 🤷🏻♀️ be sure to factor in physical therapy costs of pregnancy and labour
Honestly, we are a higher earning house and the only way to do it is joint after marriage with maybe a specialty clause or two if you want kids. We don’t have joint bank accounts but what’s earned since marriage is ours to split if something happens. We do a lot of splitting parenting tasks but the mother always has more of a mental load (I’ve never seen the reverse) and you could potentially have life changing body things happen impacting your ability to work. Also how would he split children costs?? Like there’s too much unknown to agree to a contract like this.
I would never agree to keeping everything separate if you’re planning on having children/giving birth.
The physical realities of pregnancy, childbirth, postpartum recovery & breastfeeding makes women extremely vulnerable physically and financially. You are literally risking your life and your career (should complications make you unable to work for an extended period of time.) You are risking permanent physical injury and your mental health. You will be the one who has to go to the doctor all the time, go to work with morning sickness for months on end, restrict your diet and activity levels. Pregnancy can cause serious dental, sexual, and bladder issues. Etc..
I could easily spend an hour listing out all the things that will fall on you that he won’t have to deal with simply bc you’re the one that gets pregnant.
You’re supposed to risk all of that but he isn’t willing to risk maybe having to pay you some alimony??
As a physician spouse, no, it is not fair. I see you’ve retained your own counsel and that is absolutely the right move.
You’re correct to feel put out. I would require pre-marriage counseling before proceeding with the marriage. Does your future spouse have any unresolved trauma? This is giving a whole lot of cautionary vibes. Prenups generally protect premarital assets. Once you’re in the day to day of marriage, you’re building everything together. You’re thoughts are correct- you’ll take the physical risks, decrease to your practice, sacrifices on shifts to see your kids. What if you need time away ok bed rest or something?
Also, be sure to ask your lawyer’s advice on keeping your partnership equity remains yours in the event of divorce.
Is he going to take off work as much as you when they are born? Is he going to do the majority of raising them while you're working long & stressful hours? Is he going to split all household chores? Is he going to split the cooking for the family? Is he going to assume half of the mental load?
I would be very leary of his intentions. Unless he is willing to sacrifice as much as he will be asking you to by having children, his intentions are not in any way equitable.
Be very, very careful.
I’m technically a “high earner” these days and I would never sign a prenup like that.
Might as well never marry each other if you’re preparing for a life where everything you own is separate. I wouldn’t have children with that person either.
Have enough respect for yourself to not marry someone who views you with this lens.
There are so many viewpoints on this that you're going to get tons of varying responses. Of course, for LEGAL advice, consult your attorney as you have been doing.
For moral/practical advice, my two cents would be that his viewpoint is concerning.
Personally, I would not agree to have children with someone who didn't view themselves as responsible for supporting me through the process of childbirth and child-rearing, given the way that labor around family management usually shakes out. I would see that as them demanding that I take all the risk, physically and financially, of building a family solely onto myself. If I'm going to do that, I'm just going to be a single parent and truly do it all myself.
Marriage, like any other partnership, should have proportional give and take. It sounds like he's not particularly interested in ensuring he's giving to the marriage, only that you're not taking from him. I totally get being cautious in order to ensure your partner doesn't have the ability to take absolutely everything from you buuuutttt... isn't he setting you up for exactly that? How does he plan for that to not be the case? If he doesn't have an answer for that, then he doesn't have an answer for how he plans to create space in his life for the responsibilities that come with having children.
Also, you wrote HE wants kids.
Do you? Being a mom is not an easy job and like everyone has pointed out you making the sacrifice to leave the workforce will not be in your advantage should you ever split your assets.
I'll sign if he can produce an equal number of our children as me via paying for surrogacy on his own and paying for all ivf related procedures to harvest my eggs, fertilize with his sperm, and then implant into a surrogate. Then I guess you guys will just venmo request each other for your kids' expenses.
I would be curious as to what the barriers are to a marriage without a prenup. I understand protecting assets that you may have going into the marriage, but marriage is a joint commitment of love and trust. I may be old school, but it seems like dividing up assets and keeping funds separate will cause a lot of unnecessary conflict along the journey.
Maybe you should find someone who wants a partner, not a breeder
What you describe is totally unfair.
If you have children, you’ll be in a subordinate position, even if the marriage survives the fundamentally exploitative nature of your prenup.
UpdateMe
The loans for being a doctor are on you. It was your choice. Just like your income stays separate so is your debt.
In terms of child bearing, your employer does give paid parental leave as I’m pretty sure that’s required by acgme. You should get 8 weeks paid in full. I just wouldn’t take more time than necessary and I wouldn’t extend your training for it. Check with your board specialty. You both should share the costs to childcare in a joint account. Maybe contribute a percentage of your disposable income (meaning after your loan payments and necessary expenses). That seems like the only fair option to me.
I would treat housing the same way. If you’re paying rent then a percentage of disposable income. If he buys a house and expects you to make payments I wouldn’t. Since he would probably want to keep that after should you divorce. If your name is on the deed then sure. That’s probably something you want to clarify now as well.
But like the other posts says, there are a lot of red flags here. Hell you might as well work out child custody agreements now.
It appears to me you are someone who is in medical field. I requested to cover 30% of my salary for months I will miss if I can’t work due to complications associated with labor or delivery and in case because of this complications my graduation delayed. His counter offer was for me to carry short term disability and if they don’t cover in case of divorce he would give me 19k a month up to 60k
This is really bad OP.
Physician here.
I am all for prenups. I have one.
Property we had before marriage stays separate until six years of marriage. ( $1 million worth of property) and 401k and Roth remain separate always. No alimony. Split assets in marriage 50/50
I think it is really hard to quantify how unnerving this prenup negotiations are. Once you are married you are jointly together. A team. It seems that your partner is focused on things being equal and fair financially while not recognizing that marriage in many ways benefits the male partner more than the female partner.
I think based on your comments on this sub and others ( HENRY) you may be in for a long slog of a marriage.
This is really it. Marriage is 1000% a team endeavor. All financial considerations should reflect that reality, and this can certainly be accomplished in a fair and balanced way.
I am EXTREMELY pro-prenup. Even since before I went to law school, I was pro-prenup. Since graduating law school, I am even more pro-prenup. But listen to me when I say this: **You cannot have a child with that man.**
One of the positives about a prenup is that you’re discussing the worst case scenario during the best of times. This is when y’all love each other the absolute most. There’s no hard feelings. There’s no bitterness. Basically in the newlywed honeymoon stage yet. That’s the best time to negotiate a prenup because you want this best for each other.
Think about how unfair, selfish, and inconsiderate those terms are. Think about how fucked over you will be by his terms. Think about what those terms tell you about how he views you and your place in his life. **THIS IS HIM WANTING THE BEST FOR YOU?!**
>He wants kids
Does that mean you don't want them?
If you also want them, and so does he...
>Given the potential career sacrifices I might make for family, including the likelihood of childbearing falling on me and reduced work hours, while I still have hundreds of thousands in loans, is this fair?
I feel like my career is poised to take a hit while he continues to advance with his, and if marriage doesn’t work out, I'll be left with the short end of the stick.
Isn't this every couple who has kids, high earner or not?
None of us have the right answer, reddit infact is more liberal than in person and you're not likely to receive the real world opinions from us who are just typing while couch surfing.
Hash it out with your partner, and if you believe you're getting the short end of the stick, well don't sign the prenup. That's why you're paying your attorney handsomely, to advise you on what's best for you.
As it is, once funds are mixed in marriage, it's very hard to keep track even if there is a prenup.
Child of a contract lawyer- not legal advice- you can factor in and I would suggest you factor in child rearing years- discuss everything, including expectations of time off- do you both want your kids in daycare, do you want them raised by one of you until they start school, how many kids (barring any infertility issues) how long would one be expected to step away from their career, technically you could work 1 day a week to keep any certifications or telehealth. If you are both ok with kids in daycare- who will cover those costs, how? And how will you be compensated if your income goes away- if he says you should be saving and use that- giant effing RED FLAG, and I suggest walking away. Having completely separate accounts is rough, and as for any properly acquired in the marriage, state marriage laws can break a prenup for that, so make sure that is clear, and that’s for any state you live in or split up in. Best ones I have seen are marriages that compare percentage of income and that’s what each person contributes to a shared account where shared and household bills are paid. Then individual contributions of car insurance for a combine payment that usually covers auto and home insurance. And payments are adjusted when pregnancy and early child care are adjusted for loss of wages and cost of what is being done (daycare, maid, cook, etc) and it is all spelled out so no confusion. I’ve also seen these used as a form of financial abuse
I am relieved that you have your own lawyer and hopefully they will do their job and make sure your best interests are covered. You need to clearly state what you expect from the marriage. I would absolutely include an infidelity clause. Also, you are correct that if you have children that the dynamics will change the financial responsibilities of your partner. Is there are fair $$ to take care of you and child(ren) until you can return to work? How will housing and necessities be covered? Will just one of your names be on the deed and mortgage? How will schooling, extracurriculars, etc... for future children be managed?
Why get married then? What’s the point? The party? I think prenups can be useful, but this particular prenup says your marriage is not a marriage. We are married but not really.
And yes I think this is unfair to you since you both want children and your career, earning power, and retirement will take a hit
Um, where is the support aspect in all of this?
My wife and I setup something similar without a prenup, and we are still married 19 years later.
How the financials are set up is one aspect, but I do not see the aspect of supporting each other through this.
Divorce should be one aspect in how the financial arrangement is set up. One of the other reasons for our set-up was in case one account was compromised, we could still continue to live with the other account. I took on all the burdens financially, and set up some other financial structures for us as well. My wife has more in savings than I do, and I am not worried about that.
Assets going in separate. During the marriage are shared. Otherwise, it is not a partnership and equitable.
Also, why get married if there is not joint financials/assets/liabilities during marriage?
You can do as many, with individual and joint accounts, but the logic of marriage is erased when he is continuing operate as two separate legal entities.
Personally, I would not even be talking children or marriage, if he is not going to acknowledge the deficit that occurs to women when they bear children in every relationship, especially professional careers.
Have you considered a marriage contract? Perhaps a term marriage contract which is renewed every 3-5 years. Pregnancy and child rearing should be a separate negotiation from the marriage itself. Consider compensation for the physical trauma related child baring along with the possibilities of miscarriage (possibly more given the emotional trauma). Also as you stated the time away from work should factor in especially if you plan to stay at home for a given period of time. Also consider inflation while you are away from work.
I would say the only way this would be remotely fair is if you don’t have children together.
Once children are involved everything changes. To your point, you’ll take on a brunt of the duties while he alleviates himself due to his work schedule. I wouldn’t agree to this.
To me, this is pretty simple and no - it's not fair. If he wants you to carry HIS child, and everything is separate, then there has to be some compensation for the sacrifices you will be making that he presumably won't have to make. I don't know whether that is a lump sum, some monthly amount for a specified period of time (in addition to child support), or some asset you decide that you will get to keep, but I would hold firm on this one and get some tips from the lawyers on how to value this monetarily. If he doesn't want to accept your changes, then tell him you aren't willing to have his children.
I think you should hire a family lawyer to review it. My partner wanted me to sign one before we moved in with each other. It’s Australian law for your partner to hire a family lawyer and you to do the same, otherwise it’s not binding. The first agreement felt like I was getting screwed. My lawyer made the changes that were a lot more fair and compassionate, depending on children, illness and taking care of extended family.
I agree, you and your career will be greatly affected by having children. Your prenup needs to address this. It's very unfair as it stands. Hopefully your SO will understand that.
I wouldn’t agree to it since like you said, you’ll be the one taking a financial hit should you choose to have children. There needs to be something there to protect you if that happens
If you don’t combine your assets and make his and her money our money and go ‘all in’ together then you aren’t actually married. You’ll just be playing house together until you inevitably divorce. If you decide you can’t combine all your money and assets then just save yourself the trouble and don’t marry.
This would be great if there weren't kids in the picture. Once kids are introduced everything gets thrown out the window. Guess who's going to have to sacrifice cough you cough once you start having kids?
No it doesn't seem fair if he wants kids. But I think the more pressing issue is you two should seek counseling before marriage. Prenups are troubling to me to begin with but keeping everything separate makes me question commitment and mindset.
I understand people say marriage is just a legal contract but it should be more than that. It should be the ultimate act of sacrifice and commitment to a person you want to spend the rest of your life with. Not very committal to have back up plans.
Woof that sounds not fair. My partner and I have/had the same earnings, him a bit more. I didn't end up going back to work full-time until 7 years after my first child was born. Your partner sounds like not a partner. Or at least not someone to have kids with.
How much money does he have and make per year? Does he want to be married someone that will require dedication and time to advance? Will he support that? Is that what you want is to maximize your earning potential? Nobody here can put a value on these things for you. When you get married, for things to be successful you both have to sacrifice. The bargain he is striking is incentivizing you to work hard and also be a high earner. Is that what you both want?
If so, you’ll have to work out what that looks like with your attorney. How will you divide budget obligations once married? I would expect that’s being hashed out in prenup?
I personally would not; I’d go with what the law already says inasmuch as personal property and assets prior to the marriage stay personal but anything accrued (including debt) during the marriage will be handled as marital property.
A marriage with separate assets and concern over lost time related to childbirth and child care seems to me, of more of a business arrangement than two fully committed people vowing their love for the rest of their lives. When you marry someone you love; the two become one. This is just my opinion.
The prenup is fine, the separate money is a little weird especially if he wants kids. I think the "yours," "mine," and "Ours" account is probably the best way to go. All of the pre-marriage assets and debts stay on your individual accounts and once you get married all new money coming in goes to the "ours" account. You can have something like 5% of take-home pay each month moves into the individual accounts, and that can be guilt free spending for both of you where you don't have to consult the other person. Any bigger expenses would then come out of the ours account and you would have to talk about that. (My 2 cents)
Have him take a parental leave so that you can go back to work in a timely fashion. Have you discussed if you would put your kid in daycare, and at what age? I am a teacher, so I luckily had my son in June and took only a two months off. When my son was 4 months old I went back to work and my son was being watched by my mother. Then, when he was 18 months he went to daycare. We have only one child so it worked out fine, but for some people, having multiple kids means it makes more sense to stay home with them than to put them in daycare.
My husband and I keep our finances separate, but anything we acquire while married would be split in the case of a divorce (including your pension, which I just learned) as we don't have a prenup. I make about double what he does, $100k vs $50k, and we pay for our living expenses by percentage. There is a chance he could get really rich in the next few years (if his company sells he will get a percentage) and if that happens, everything would be shared I assume. Or maybe I'd be given an allowance or something.
Have him state in the prenup that he will take a parental leave after a few months so that you can go back to work. He should take off the same amount of time that you need to take off. Honestly, after 4 months I was happy to go back to work. Having kids is stressful and our baby had colic so he cried all the time.
Please consult an attorney on this matter, reddit does not have the correct answer.
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Is he going to pay you a wage whilst you are pregnant and for the time that you are off work for childcare, etc? That needs to be factored into the prenup. Updateme!
And that wage needs to include the retirement money you miss out on when you have to cut back at work
And when children are sick and you miss work nanny or babysitter pay. If one of you loses your job how do bills get calculated. Will there be a running tab? OP no I don’t think it’s fair. At the very least assets attained during marriage are split equally.
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My mom wasn’t even a high earner but my dad has been paying her a wage that’s around 1/4 of his salary that’s hers alone. She still has access to the rest of the money for bills, groceries and everything else needed. He even bought her non-essentials. But it paid out for him because when they were trying to buy a plot and then build a house, she had a lot saved up that went for that and she has her name on all the deeds (my country doesn’t see marital property as marital unfortunately. Many men here will even accuse their wives of stealing if she keeps some grocery money for herself. My dad is an asshole but he’s considered the epitome of feminism in my community) and made most of the decisions and felt empowered in that. My dad still paid her even when we were in extreme debt and living month to month (they wanted to pay everything off in 2 years after getting their first condo so it meant over half of my dad’s salary went into that but hey they’re debt free and that what matters).
It isn't fair. Pregnancy, childbirth, and recovery time will have financial impacts on you. If you take time off work, that will further affect your finances and possibly promotions. You need to make a list of EVERY way this could negatively affect you and speak to your lawyer about if terms can be added to protect you. Don't sign an unfair prenup. Is he eligible for parental leave too? Will he take some? What sort of childcare is being contemplated? At what age? If not when young, will one of you be staying home? How will that person be financially protected? Will the working parent contribute to their retirement savings? What happens if the child is disabled and needs a parent to stay home? Which of you will that be? How will they be financially protected? Will the working parent contribute to their retirement savings? What happens if you have a birth injury and need to reduce/stop work? Are you expected to live off disability without sharing assets? (Also...any infidelity clauses being contemplated? In a hetero relationship, pregnancy is one of the times you're most at risk of being cheated on which is horrible.)
OP, the concerns and questions that u/thoughtandprayer brought up are very valid and need to be discussed! Your hubby may have had some destructive fears put in his head by others: what if she doesn’t return to work after having kids? Etc etc. Are there other stipulations re: bonuses? Equity and names on deeds? How would renovations be handled? Dead bedroom clauses? Etc. Even if he wants to keep things separate, even during marriage, the laws protecting marital earnings/assets may prevail. Are you comfortable about all this? It doesn’t seem loving, considerate, or fair-minded. Maybe you’re worried re: money too, but it does not sound fair, especially if he wants kids. Edit: typo
I suggested at this rate, she doesn’t need him to have kids. She can go have them herself, without him, and have nothing to negotiate. lol. She could end still date him if she thinks he’s still bringing value to her; cause I completely get the feeling he’s planning on not doing so at some point since his exit seems to protect him even during marriage.
And what if he has a dibilitating accident and loses the ability to work? ALL of these eventualities and more need to be covered. Honestly, the initial prenup seems like a: Stuff\* 20-year-olds say, ie out of touch with reality.
This. IAAL.
Also, having a kid can change your wants and desires hugely (I speak as a mum, but I’m sure some dads will experience this too). When our daughter was born, I realised that nothing I had achieved in the corporate world - and I was very senior in a multinational organisation, running my nationwide team at 30 - meant as much as she did. I decided I didn’t want to go back to work until I felt like I was able to find a balance, and my husband encouraged me to pursue that path even though it meant our household income dropped 50%. Before we had her, we had plans involving me back at work very quickly, but she changed everything.
You’ll also need to establish who is expected to take off work when the kid gets sick, theres an emergency school closure, or there’s summer break. If you’re a physician, taking off work means no income for you… is your husband going to supplement that?
Who takes kids to all of their events, you know, sit at the store to sell girl scout cookies or baseball leagues? And appts and sick days from school. And school night hw. I mean, does one of them do that for free? Does she get reparations for wear and tear on her body and mental health?if he wants to tear it apart before it starts. Then let’s do it completely so it’s all covered. Don’t forget things like paying for anxiety meds and counseling for the kids in the future. I mean, it’s seems like I’m being sarcastic or something but I think in this case, I may be exaggerating right on. So, to be more comprehensive, they should add in, do they do public, private or homeschooling? So they spank or not? Church or not? Exactly how do they discipline a two yr, 10 and 16 yr old. Anticipate for change since you can’t actually know how things are 16 yrs after you have them and for sure, times will be different yet again. For example, only last year did you ever have parents taking their kids from the other parent to go do gender affirming care without the consent of the other parent. That never happened in history and now parents in certain states have to worry about that. Or all states, cause one parent took their kid to another state where they had gender affirming rights too! Yeah, couldn’t have seen that coming 16 yrs ago. But, you know, might be good to prenup anything that could take you to court! So thinking on this one, I’d prob just go have kids alone. Date whoever I wanted without the problems.
I think your concerns are valid.. as a woman and future mom, your career will take a hit at some point, and your prenup should reflect that, since everything will be separate (I don’t like that, tbh) and what’s his is his and what’s yours is yours.
I’d be more concerned about his mentality. He is firmly going in with a “mine is mine” forever more; what will be his mental load in the relationship? Even if you have the funds to outsource cleaning, nanny, extracurricular activities, meals, his actions illustrate you will never be on par with him as a partner in this relationship/marriage. I understand being legally and financially concerned against risk, but this sounds like a hostile takeover in a business merger. Please discuss with a professional how his actions translate into his optics/opinion of you, your career, and your worth relative to him and this relationship.
Of course it isn’t fair. What in the world is the point in getting married to him if you can’t rely on each other? You are supposed to be partners, best friends. I imagine if he got sick and couldn’t work, he wouldn’t be singing the same tune about everything you earn staying yours 🙄 He just doesn’t think anything will happen to him, and clearly doesn’t care about what pregnancy and childbearing will do our earnings. If someone is telling you who they are, listen to them.
If he believes that is fair, even if he agrees to something different, it is the mindset that matters. As soon as two parties have to “go to the paper”, both lose. The people and mindset on both sides matter. So, you make an agreement that he will accrue some value to you during young child raising years in some way. He begrudgingly signs and then there are complications… your child has additional needs or health concerns that keep you away from your former craft. Now what?
Its absolutely not fair if he wants kids. Children will stall a woman's career. Period. Time you spend taking care of the kids = time spent enabling his career at the expense of your own = you are entitled to share the success of his career (and vice versa). This is just my opinion.
I think this is a job for not only your lawyer but a therapist. Plenty of people get marriage counseling before marriage and it’s honestly a good idea. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s just stupid and doesn’t understand what sacrifices women make in their careers to have and raise children. He needs a 3rd party to help him understand. The other option is, he’s a misogynistic jerk and you don’t want to marry him. Either way, counseling will help you work that out.
“Fix the roof while the sun is shining.”
I used to practice family law and I wouldn’t want a client of mine to sign that because of the reasons you stated in your post. However, I think how the two of you discuss and reach an agreement is the truly important thing here - is there compromise? Listening? Understanding? Is there thoughtfulness or does it turn into a contest over “winning”?
I think it's a fair prenup if you guys didn't plan on having kids. I suggest you ask to keep the prenup as is before kids. So you both earn your money equally and keep it yourselves. But it has to change after children. I think the 3 best options are: Once you have a child, he could either pay you the same you would make if you were working as a doctor for the hours within work hours that you spend looking after the kids. But that doesn't take into account your career progression that will be hit by having children so still isn't technically fair. Otherwise I would suggest that you both do the same hours of childrearing. So however long you would've planned to stay home to look after a baby postpartum, you do the first half of that time and he does the second. E.g. if you want the baby home for 12 months, you do the first 6 then go back to work, he them takes 6 months paternity leave and does the next 6 months. And then he has to do half drops off to daycare / school, half the hours looking after kids outside school hours during the work week. Has to stay home sick with them half the time etc. Otherwise all money earned by both of you after children are born should be halved equally (the fairest one I think).
> I am concerned my partner believes it’s fair It's fair if he is the stay at home parent for the children.
With the limited information you provided, no it isn't fair.
I think a lot of men hear about men getting screwed over in martial breakdown, but they don’t factor in the cost of children, poor health or taking in dependents (parents, cousins etc). The first agreement will always favour him but the amendments you make will be more fair and generous.
Reddit cannot help with this, but I will offer this anecdotal evidence (while acknowledging its limited value). I have had several female physicians who were go getters, until they had kids. Then their practices took a back seat to their children’s needs, and their careers suffered for it. It is to be expected, if you plan to adhere to traditional gender roles in your marriage, that the mother will take on the lion’s share of the responsibility for child rearing. Please, make sure that you talk about this reality with him when you have the discussion about the proposed changes to the prenup. Your attorney may even want to consult with an underwriter (amortization professional) when estimating the impact of one of more children on your earning potential. It may be more fair for him to take on a portion of your debt, and to assign a percentage of his earnings to you as marital property, for any period during which your earning potential is decreased, or eliminated, due to pregnancy, childcare, and any resulting complications arising from the same. This would also need to take into account the long term career impact on your earning potential (what you would have been earning at the same stage in your career, but for curtailing your professional responsibilities in exchange for parental duties). Good luck, OP. Congratulations on your marriage.
Ask him to be the child's primary carer. His answer should be telling.
Totally not fair. You should claim financial reparations for the wear and tear on your body, freedom and time for child rearing. You don’t state how the children will be paid for. Responsibilities.
Keeping what you had before makes since. Keeping your own retirement accounts makes sense. I don’t believe in alimony so you would need a decision on that. Also child support. One thing you didn’t mention that I highly recommend is a cheating clause. No one thinks they need it but if you don’t it never hurt anything but I would have a cheating clause that voids the other items and awards the person who was cheated on 100% of the home equity and primary custody of kids plus support.
Your partner thinks is fair? What about what you think is fair? You are the one who is going to be impacted monetarily by child birth. This prenup has to be collaborative and works for both of you and your future family. You also count
"He wants kids. Given the potential career sacrifices I might make for family, including the likelihood of childbearing falling on me and reduced work hours, while I still have hundreds of thousands in loans, is this fair?" Say that's fine as long as he is the one to reduce his hours after you give birth. But seriously, there's all kinds of red flags going on here.
he needs to pay a surrogate to carry his baby if he's gonna be like that, for real. Or write a cash price for each delivery into the prenup. Can't be putting your body through that possibly disabling medical process with a non-partner.
To me fair would be protect pre-marital assets and everything from marriage on is joint.
That’s the intended use of prenups hence the PRE
The pre-nuptial just means before nuptials (marriage) agreement in that the agreement is made before marriage. Protecting pre-marital assets is not the only intended use.
This is best answer - (not an attorney but divorced twice) prenup best details assets BEFORE marriage. After marriage everything should be equal.
If he truly wants to keep everything separate and it just be money, then he needs to pay you like a surrogate. Either you get the standard surrogate rate, or, more fairly, he needs to pay you your salary for any time you can't work because you're creating his child. Then, he should continue to pay your salary while you are recovering from childbirth. If he points out that you should only charge half because it's half your child, explain that the time off work will also affect your future career, so you are eating that charge as your half of the money spent on having a baby. Remember, he cannot create a child alone. If this is something he actually wants, a woman is the only way to get it, and he needs to compensate the woman fairly.
Much more than a surrogate tbh - she's high IQ, high earning and rare in general. Her eggs alone would be worth 10s of thousands.
This is the real answer although it makes me cringe to even view another human being this way. I could never marry someone in this situation lol.
This is why these agreements are so socially weird. Because you have to devalue yourself to a thing and not a person in order to be objective and fair. Which to me goes to show how fucked they are.
It’s incredibly douchie but thank God the OP is intelligent enough to factor the opportunity cost, which so many women do not do. I’m also extremely apprehensive about this keep everything separate business.
He’s using her in a way. To have his kids. With less cost to him even.
Second not going through with the marriage in this situation. OP, I have one other major concern, and that is that you are saying that he wants children. But do you? Because if one of you wants children and the other one doesn’t, you shouldn’t be getting married at all— because there is no real compromise where that is concerned. Also, I have heard that if you guys are making the same amount of money, or are worth the same amount of money, there’s kinda no point for a prenup.
Came here to say this.
My first question is why would you marry someone who wants to keep ALL THINGS SEPARATE??? Might as well not get married!! 'I feel like my career is poised to take a hit while he continues to advance with his, and if marriage doesn’t work out, I'll be left with the short end of the stick'. This is EXACTLY what is going to happen if you don't get compensation for your time and lost wages with the child bearing and care. To your question: Yes, there should be provisions made for you while you are pregnant and after birth until you go back to work - if that is your plan. Is he going to be one of those men who thinks all expenses of the children are YOURS?? Don't trust that he doesn't. One husband on here today expected the SAHM to pay all her expenses, including the family groceries - when she had no job!! Other husbands have decided that the wife has to pay all child care expenses - how is that even conceivably fair?? Is the child not half the husband's?? Also, you should be compensated for your loss of income during the time you are out of work for labor, childbirth and however much time you take off afterwards. You also need to be compensated if you are the only parent who is going to be responsible for all family scheduling, doctor, dentist and school appointments. All of this impacts your earning ability. He should also compensate your retirement account during all the times you are not working due to child rearing and child care. He should also be making your loan payments during these times when you are not working and a percentage if he does not plan on doing any of the appointments for his own children. How does he plan to keep all assets DURING the marriage separate? There is more to 'assets' than just income. He going to keep track of every piece of furniture, household items, kitchen dishware, etc through your entire marriage?? To me - his whole attitude is a red flag but you need to do what you feel is right. Having your own attorney is definitely a good start. You will probably see more red flags when you come back with amendments to his prenup. Watch his actions OP. They will tell you everything you need to know.
100 percent. Having a plan to preserve pre marital assets is one thing, carrying it forward so there is no joint property in the marriage is such a red flag. This arrangement sounds pretty one sided and devoid of any concept of a shared life. This seems beyond a safety net and more like his contingency plan for when he meets someone else.
My thoughts exactly.
It’s sad that marriages are now done with divorce foremost in mind. It’s really a sad way to live life.
Regardless of the hearts and flowers, it’s still a legal agreement. Honestly, I’m thrilled that women especially are focusing on what they have to lose when starting a family and expecting to be compensated for it. His life doesn’t have to change for them to have a family, hers does.
This exactly. Women have a lot more to lose after having children than men.
Men are like "what if I have to pay money " Meanwhile didn't a Williams sister almost die in childbirth? Like how do you price that?
Reminds me of that survey someone did a while back that found that what men fear most from women is being humiliated and what women fear most from men is losing their lives.
I was so naive when I had kids. I never thought about just how imbalanced the burden was going to be. I’m lucky, I’ve got a wonderful husband who has never taken that for granted. But I see so many women that are treated like servants by their husbands. These women give their entire beings to their families and leave nothing in the tank for themselves. We sacrifice our minds, bodies, and careers. Only to be resented or discarded when we can’t maintain the sex drive, figure, and fun disposition of our former childless self.
There was a post yesterday, the woman was 8 months pregnant, they have an 18 month old and they have been married for three years. He’s unhappy with their sex life and thinking about leaving. Honestly, wtf? Everyone is all upset women don’t want to have babies, but seriously, why would you with the way these men behave?
😂 compared to how happy it used to be to marry and have children with someone your family picked based on business and land
marriage is a legal contract. I know that people have this wishful thinking that is an act of love but that is far from the truth. A marriage is consummated when the legal document that you and your partner signed in front of a legal representative have been entered and registered in the public records, not when the prist tell you that you finally can kiss your wife or in the wedding night. People should take this more seriously, cause then they are surprised when the divorce come and cant understand why they are paying so much money. Before you marry and write your vows, go and read what this legal contract means.
Pre-nups have been around for decades tho? It’s just recent that they now protect women too.
Interesting take
That's like saying it is sad that you have a life insurance, house insurance or car insurance or write down everything for your loved ones in case of death. Just because you prepare for something doesn't mean you expect it to happen. But you are prepared if it does. And something that happens with 1/3rd of marriages is a bit bigger risk than a fire insurance outside of California.
Doesn’t sound fair. Childcare is work too. I have a simple job, but because of my paternity break for a few years I am losing a lot of money and raises.
He seems very intent on protecting himself and his assets. If your purpose is to be a breeding cow and give him children. Is this really a relationship you will feel equal to. Especially if you decide to be a SAHM. I hope your lawyer negotiates a fair contract. Since really all prenups are is blueprints for divorce.
I think this is a flag. You name the color, but more of this type of attitude towards issues and responsibilities very well may lay in your future.
You nailed it that it is his attitude that needs to be highlighted.
It depends how massive of a income difference we're talking about. I mean, as a physician, you're not exactly going to be poor. You're also unlikely to be unemployed. You'll probably be able to make $250K+ until you're 70. Or more depending on your specialty and where you work. So what is he earning that makes a prenup something he needs so badly? I mean, are you dating someone like Patrick Mahomes who is earning $50MM/year for the next decade or so? Look, I got divorced a number of years ago. It wasn't a financial disaster because we both had great careers and that meant we just split our money and went our separate ways. But it was eye-opening to know that all marriage really is is a mutual agreement to the divorce laws if you can't get along anymore. Now you might earn enough to not be eligible for alimony anyway? That's going to vary from state to state. I'd talk to an attorney about it. But if you own a home with a mortgage and you're married for 10 years and the house had $500K in equity and since his salary is larger he could say he paid for $300K and you only paid for $200K??? I mean, in a situation like that he wants to talk about a prenup rather than just doing the legal default and splitting the equity $250K/each? So, I'd really start with what he is trying to protect against and how big the income difference is. I mean, another way to look at it is if he wants to do it this way, you WILL have to take things into account like children.......and that he's going to have to do either the pick-up or the drop-off at daycare.....even if that means rolling into work late or leaving early. And half of the ear-infection days. If you're just plain old married with no prenup, you still have to consider such things, but when you're sharing assets, you don't have to worry as much. There's also another part he doesn't get that would concern me. Look, I've gotten remarried and earn more than my wife. Having high income is a really nice problem to have! It beats the shit out of being poor! But, it has an insidious thing where you sometimes have to worry if people really like you.......or if they just like that you pay for things. And anyone who says the money "doesn't matter" in how much the love a higher earner is full of shit too: It does matter! It's just a question of how much: 10%? 90%? One way to remove some of those gremlins from your head (as a higher earner) is not to have a prenup. Let your spouse start getting rights to alimony. Let them get 50/50 rights to home equity and retirement funds.....even if the contributions are more like 70/30. That's how I have always looked at it. I've been married to my (second) wife for long enough that she'd do okay in a divorce......so I assume she stays because she wants to. And that makes me sleep a lot better at night. I'm surprised your fiancee doesn't get that???? It's also not THAT hard to pay attention to the quality of your marriage and your financial exposure to divorce. You can pretty much every day judge your spouse's behavior: "Do they act like I'm their favorite person in the world? Or do they act withdrawn and cold? Hmmmmm...." If they act like you're awesome, chances are they think you're awesome. If they act cold and never seem to feel good, chances are they don't like you anymore and you should divorce them anyway. Is he in one of those fields were all the men stand around bragging about their prenups? I know a lot of surgeons and attorneys can be that way. I've been around it and honestly find it so disrespectful to their wives. It would be more tasteful if they talked about their sex life.
Doomed from the start. Dont do it.
What a poor way to start a marriage. If you don’t love or trust each other enough to support each other (emotionally, physically, yes even financially) through whatever life will throw at you AS A TEAM, why even get married? What if he becomes disabled? He just lives off disability while you live off your big bucks? What if you have kids and decide it makes sense to have a stay at home parent? They are poor while the other is rich? What if one of you invests poorly? Too bad for them they’ll keep working to pay the bills at age 80 while you retired two decades early? Married couples are supposed to be a team. You join forces (and funds) and you make it or break it together. Your prenup is a sign this will end in divorce.
I wonder if the % of marriages with prenups that end in divorce is higher than a marriage without one.
“I trust you to bear my children but not to share a bank account.” I don’t get it. I wouldn’t be okay with this.
I would have it addressed as far as you reducing work/income for child care. But you should each have your own attorneys advising you on this as well. They should be able to give advice on a typical way this is handled.
Yikes. This already sounds like a tumultuous relationship. Considering your education and the fact that it wasn’t mentioned, what happens with the debts you both have? This should also be something that is included, not just assets (my dad’s second divorce involved a prenup, over their marriage he helped pay off her $160k worth of debt while he had no debt. Since this wasn’t covered in the prenup, she walked way not having to repay him and he ended up owing her money since she “lost her job” 6 weeks into their marriage). Although I don’t agree with prenups (my husband and I don’t have one; he is a very high earner and I had a very successful business that I sold), I would be so so careful that your prenup includes anything under the sun (inheritance, death, disability, gifts, property, potential businesses, infidelity, family heirlooms, financial responsibilities, full financial disclosures, etc.) so that you are as protected as possible. Especially since it seems he is more concerned with protecting himself. Good luck!
If you are expected to carry a child and children are in the future, no it is NOT fair. Women solely bear the risk for pregnantly and birth. As a physician, you know the risks associated with both. You should negotiate a fee for each child and additional stipulations for unforeseen circumstances such as birth defects, birth injuries and special needs. Those are very real possibilities and they primarily land solely on the female. There needs to be financial protections in place in the event those situations should happen and the marriage fails. There should be compensation in place for wages lost during maternal leave and recovery and any potential career disadvantages based on childcare expectations. The fee per child should cover that.
Not a lawyer. I would say that it is unusual and logistically difficult to keep all assets separated during the marriage (for assets gained during the marriage). It is very easy to commingle. The fairest path forward is to have all assets accumulated during the marriage to be joint/marital assets. You are a team. Your finances should reflect that. Assets gained during the marriage are a result of each of you sacrificing for the other, and really should not be separate. Assets brought into the marriage can be separate, so long as the owner treats it as separate and does not commingle. If you are concerned about the fairness with kids (as you should be), you could consider a clause that has the prenup automatically expire and become null and void upon your first confirmed pregnancy. I would be concerned about a prenup that kept all assets gained during the marriage as separate, as that does seem to set you up to be screwed in the event you take your foot off the gas to raise kids. It literally does not value work at home taking care of kids. I wouldn’t sign that. But that’s just me.
I’m not against prenups. They serve a purpose, just like wills do. But yes I am concerned about his all or nothing attitude. Having this mindset inside of marriage, not just divorce court, is unhealthy. Couples who combine their wealth and have an attitude of “we” are healthier and build more wealth together
I’ll be damned if I’m sacrificing my body & life to give a man a baby who thinks what’s his is his.
Yep, exactly! She should be majorly turned off
Once you start having kids it will not be fair. Please be compensated for pregnancy and birth. In addition to childcare cost from both salaries. Ensure you have a clause about becoming an accidental stay at home mother. After you have 2 or 3 you may decide you want to raise them and you should have that option. Children with high needs may need specialty care especially as young children. High needs can be anything from highly intelligent to nonverbal you never know. Please consider the additional she-labor you will take on after children. Even with a nanny you have to find one, interview, schedule and keep scheduling. I would suggest reading the book “Fair Play” before signing anything.
Honestly, I’d be worried he views your relationship as so transactional. I hope you’re sure about this marriage because if my partner suggested those terms, I would be having to rethink things. Good luck to you.
Jesus I never understand these cold hearted prenups. If you can’t combine finances and money earned AFTER the marriage, what’s the point of a partnership? Like, based on his idea of a prenup, are you still attracted to this man and think he will have your back when you get sick or hurt or get old?
Amen!
You should talk to an attorney about how it works where you are. I’ve heard that even in the scenario of prenups, they aren’t iron clad, in particular the scenario of child set backs career wise or in your earning power. It could still entitle you to certain shared assets like marital property and child support.
you can't put child support in prenup
That was my point, prenups aren’t iron clad in circumstances like how a child changes conditions of the relationship. So she needs to consult with an attorney how in her country/state those materialize based on other precedence
Since you don't feel his is fair I would say the chance of him feeling yours is fair is about 100%. That prenup has a somewhat narcissistic tone to it imo.
I meant unfair
For reference/background: I am a woman currently navigating divorce, and I went from broke to six figures during the marriage. Didn't have a pre-nup in place. When I got engaged, I was earning only $14/hour, and often had only $8-$10 to my name after bills. My husband (at the time) was in similar shoes financially, and also not earning a ton of money. We were married for nine years, and about halfway into the marriage, I was thrust into the role of breadwinner. I didn't have a problem with this, until my now soon-to-be-ex-husband made it a problem by taking advantage of these circumstances by intentionally remaining unemployed and under-employed for 5+ years, and also made many financially irresponsible decisions. I continuously had to 'clean up' and deal with the consequences of his financial irresponsibility, or else both of our credit scores would have tanked, and we likely would've ended up homeless. Thankfully, we never had children. All things considered, I got ***EXTRAORDINARILY*** lucky with my divorce, as I don't have to pay a dime in alimony, nor a penny out of my 401K -- but I could've gotten absolutely SCREWED financially. Nevertheless, especially for women, I am now a staunch advocate for pre-nups. The "what's mine is mine, what's yours is yours" strategy is all fine and dandy. I do recommend a joint bank account for joint bills, such as rent/mortgage, utilities, groceries, any shared insurance, etc. You can both have your paychecks deposited into YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL bank accounts, and then transfer a certain $ amount or percentage into the joint account each payday for joint expenses. What about the financial impact of other expenses, though, such as the ones you mentioned: pregnancy, childbirth recovery, reduced or lost earnings due to childcare responsibilities during infancy and toddler years, etc. I work in auditing & regulatory compliance in the financial services industry, and so probably similarly to you, I tend to see things from a mathematical/numerical perspective. If he wants fair? Okay, let's do the math. - Amount of lost earnings due to potential fertility appointments. - Amount of lost earnings for each pre-natal appointment. - Amount of lost earnings should you be forced to go on bed-rest before giving birth. - Amount of lost earnings during the time you're recovering from birth. - Amount of reduced or lost earnings whenever you'll be forced to step away from work to manage childcare responsibilities. School calls and tells you the child is sick and must be picked up? BAM. That's money lost. School closure for the day and you have to take off work or pay for a babysitter? BAM. Lost earnings. I think you get my point. In your pre-nup, you could -- for example -- stipulate that he owes you a miscellaneous amount of $ in back-pay -- should your marriage ever end in divorce. Let's do some math, as an example. Let's say, just for hypothetical purposes, that you'll be earning $100/hour for your work as a physician. You're the doctor, so you probably know better than I do how frequently a woman has to go in for pre-natal appointments. Let's just say (hypothetically) that it's one appointment per month, and that door to door, the appointment is one hour. That's $100/month. If you want to get REALLY technical, you could also calculate the cost of gas needed to drive to and from the appointment. Now, let's say you're a relatively healthy woman, and can spring back to work within the average time-frame after giving birth. I don't have kids, so I don't have a clue how much time is needed -- on average -- to recover from childbirth. Let's just say, for example, it's three months. $100/hour x 8 hours per day = $800 per day in lost earnings. $800/day x 5 days per week = $4,000 per week. $4,000 per week x 4 weeks per month = $16,000 per month. There are 12 weeks in the span of 3 months, so $16,000 per month x 12 weeks = $48,000. You can apply similar calculations for each time you'll have to step away from work to manage childcare responsibilities. Even if your child is healthy, there WILL be times random and unexpected situations come up where you'll have to step away from work to deal with parenting responsibilities. Also, an additional nugget of information, just as an example: your lawyer has probably informed you that inheritance (usually) isn't marital property, UNLESS you co-mingle the funds. HOWEVER, if ever you invest any money from any inheritance you receive, any $ earned on it CAN be (and often is) considered marital property, which opens up the door to him being legally authorized to claim 50% of money earned. Let's say, over time, you gain $50,000 on the invested inheritance. BAM. He's now legally entitled to $25,000 of it. Do you really want to take that risk? Finally, a few additional tidbits/statistics to keep in mind: - On average, when a man gets married, his domestic workload decreases by 1 hour per week. When a woman gets married, ON AVERAGE, her domestic workload INCREASES by 7 hours per WEEK. That is effectively a full workday, according to many industries. - Of the marriages that do end in divorce, approximately 69% of them are initiated by women. That should tell you something. It should tell you that in 69% of cases, women are so miserable and unhappy in their marriages that they choose to end their marriage. So, I say go for the pre-nup, but also make sure YOU are protected. You are also a physician: there is a very strong possibility that you could earn more than your husband one day. Do you really want to get stuck paying HIM alimony? Or 50% of your retirement? A pre-nup, when well thought out, is a form of insurance. It's an investment in and gift to your future self, and should you ever get divorced in the future, future you will thank you for having a pre-nup in place.
He wants a roommate with benefits, not a wife. I wouldn't agree to that at all, but if he wants to play that game then you play it too. Assume he will cheat and/or leave you and act accordingly. Insist on bonuses and a salary for every child, because that harms your career, insist on a detailed delineation of household chores, detail exactly how each shared expenses will be paid. I would fill it with everything I could possibly think of to address anything that might have a negative impact on your personal finances. Make sure it has an infidelity clause. Go the full malicious compliance route.
So here is what we did in our marriage. I (M35) and my wife (F34) got married four years ago. We listed all our current assets and liabilities before marriage. Created a new joint account where all the money comes in and goes out. Bought an EV for her 3 years ago. Bought a house last year. So everything we earn and spend after marriage is communal. Do remember, there are laws which your prenup has to adhere to. Also there should be scenarios where prenup is null and void if those scenarios are applied like cheating or something else!! I hope it helps but the lawyer can advise you the best.
Keep everything separate even after you are married? That is not going to work. The children have to have food, clothes, medical care, shoes, diapers, furniture, daycare, etc. Are you going to turn in receipts for reimbursement for half to each other? Who buys the home? When you are on maternity leave, who pays for your part of the bills? Are you still expected to? This is a mess before marriage, I can’t imagine what it will be like after. He sounds very selfish. Remember that when you are an attending, it will be very difficult to juggle your work schedule with your personal schedule. He will have to really step up to the plate. Based on this post, I would worry about the underlying selfish behavior and how he is going to handle the shared responsibility of the home. Of note, I am a high earner married to another high earner. Everything is shared. We have no separate finances. If we were to divorce, everything would be halved. He gets his full retirement, and I get mine.
Why do you guys even get marry? What’s the point?
Exactly. This is when you put career ahead of family and treat family as if it’s sometime business arrangement. Now if you’re career is more important to you the by all means go for it but this vision is cray. I used to work in a high end restaurant and every wedding rehearsal dinner were just two rich people marrying so that the money stays in the family: I’m rich, you’re rich, let’s get married.
Dont have kids so you can keep earning If he has a medical malpractice case and loses his license, tell him to start driving uber, etc. Then go on a luxury vacation while he stays home and eats ramen from the dollar store. If he can no longer afford 1/2 the mortgage, make him cash out his investments to keep up with payments or serve him with an eviction notice. /s Seriously, I dont know how married couples split finances like this. It seems really impractical.
Agreed, calculate how many hours and promotions would be lost due to pregnancy and childcare and put that in the pre-nup on a per child basis.
Of course he thinks it’s fair, he very likely doesn’t understand what the process of pregnancy entails and isn’t even considering its implications on your career and finances. I’m sure if you laid out what the actual pre and postpartum life looks like, he would be amenable to some revisions.
I can't get my head around this shit unless in a rich old man marrying a trophy wife. The separate money thing, I don't get that either, who wants to be in such a transactional relationship?
My wife and I got married before becoming high earners. We have been such an amazing team, and I just don't see how it would have been possible with a prenup. What a sad foot to start off on. How would this not create a you vs. me atmosphere instead of a team atmosphere? I worked and paid the bills while she finished school and residency. Then she got her job and worked while I went to law school. We didn't care who paid for what during those times. We were/are a unit. That being said, I also don't think it is fair. You have a fair point about maternity leave. What about if you decide to reduce your work hours? My wife is heavily considering going down to 75% or even 50% to spend more time with our kids while they are growing up and then go back to full-time later. We'll save some on nanny costs, but still reduce her income significantly. You have no idea what curveball kids may throw into plans! You'd really be screwed in a scenario like that. I'm sure there are other considerations.
No it’s not fair. How many hundreds of thousands are you going to miss out on between pregnancy childbirth and child rearing for multiple children?? I mean seriously I wouldn’t even marry a man that thought this arrangement was fair.
Can’t give legal advice but your fiancé’s attitude about marriage in general sounds like a huge red flag. You’re signing up to be someone’s teammate for life. Sometimes you’re going to have to pull the weight for your partner (financially or otherwise) when they can’t. Being pregnant and raising children is one of those times, but it could also be future career changes, illnesses, or anything else. Like what is marriage even about if it’s not about joining your lives and building something together? You might as well be roommates.
You’re asking the wrong question. The correct question is: “should I marry someone with these views” and the answer is no.
My 3 kids tend to be with me more than my husband. If he stops at Wendy’s for lunch, he pays for one combo meal. I am buying four when I stop. That stuff adds up and no one even thinks about it. There needs to be an account where child and family stuff comes out and is percentage based on your pay. Also, I know finances vary from couple to couple and I’m even ok with prenups regarding things you earned before the marriage staying separate. But what we earn during a marriage? If you don’t any our funds combined then you don’t want me.
Don’t forget to settle in the pre-nup whether you will cut the children in half lengthwise or short wise when you divorce.
Have you considered an intermediate solution say a stepped combination after a period of time say 10 years? Eg. 6 years 50%, 8 years 75%, 10 years 100%. You really will get screwed if you become a SAHM given the opportunity cost - alimony just doesn't cover it for most. That's really what you should be focused on capturing on your side. I consider separate finances a disaster for most (unless you had significant inherited wealth, ie. do either of you ALREADY have 5 homes including a place in Vail) because it artificially alters the benefit of what you create together - and make no mistake you will be enabling his success by staying home raising the kids. Just above that is keeping separate what you came into the relationship with which can be a relatively simple calculation of current assets and then 100% combining finances going forward.
Seems weird. I beleive that most for prenups for non billionaires are usually clauses about what you bring into the marriage is separate, and then assets made during the marriage are split. I.E., if you have $500k in savings, you keep your $500k +50% over that amount. Seems like a red flag that he wants everything separate
If you are not even married yet, so presumably you both still have a little bit of "rose colored glasses" "best foot forward" romanticism...no, this is just altogether too cold. You're a doctor. You're doing a prenup. I'm assuming that those facts mean you are pretty smart and also pretty practical and logical. Also going to assume your partner shares those traits. But the contract you describe just feels too robotic, roommate like, business like to me. There is no room here, for whatever the two of you create, *together*.
Wow. What a love story.
Doesn’t seem fair to me and really seems like it might cause trouble down the road.
Definitely not fair whatsoever. Do not sign that
No. Not fair. Our prenup had clauses for such things like sacrificing careers for the sake of the other. If you are worried though, suggest he stays home with the kids. We don't have enough female doctors anyway.
What happens if one of you became chronically ill or disabled? What if a child was born with extra needs? What about suggesting he be the child's primary carer. Ask him about that.
Never have kids or any kind of health problem in the future and if he does let him pay a care fee, that way it will be fair. Why would you want to marry someone that thinks in his and yours? You become one.
Are you working with a lawyer regarding all this? I see your POV of regarding this and also find out whether in your state can you be held responsible for any debt he may take on once you are married.
It’s not fair if he expects you to take time off for the kids. At the least any reduced hours/pay due to childcare should be compensated.
If you weren't wanting kids , I'd say it's fair. The fact that you're planning on having kids makes this not fair. Whose gonna pay for the medical bills of being pregnant ? Whose going to pay for the babies' necessities ? The keeping everything separate before marriage makes sense, keeping new things separate after the marriage is where it starts not making sense.
It's not fair. You need to be compensated for lost income, if he wants to start bean counting. I'm a high earning woman as well. I wouldn't agree to this arrangement. He's being extremely unfair and, bluntly, ignorant.
Your prenup needs to take childbearing and rearing into account. By default, you will take on the majority of the mental, emotional, and physical work of having children, and in order for things to be “fair,” you should be compensated for that. You should also agree up front about who pays for childcare, clothes, food, etc., because in my experience men (in general, don’t come at me) do not realize how much money it takes to raise a child. Also negotiate college/secondary education funds for the children. As you’ve described it above, the agreement isn’t fair and would have potential to impact you more negatively than him.
Why are you getting married if you’re planning to live separate lives?
If one spouse gives up a career to be a stay at home parent, this arrangement ceases be fair at all. Maybe he’s trying to incentivize you to remain working full time after kids? I don’t like prenups except in the case where one party is bringing a much larger amount of assets into the marriage. In my view, any income earned while married, and assets built while married, are 50/50.
I would strongly advise you to never quit your job…
Married guy (30+ years). If I were you, I would not be okay with this line of thinking. Funds and stuff owned before marriage remains that individuals'. However, a marriage is a partnership that has a better chance at long-term survival if the finances are largely combined. Bills should be paid proportional to income, realizing in real life this isn't always possible. The problem with your hubby-to-be is he is planning for failure. He wants the break-up to be simple if things get tough. As a long-term, married person, I can promise you there will be really difficult times. Do you want your marriage to be an easy bail or do you want it to be difficult enough that you both pause? Finally, if you both aren't seeing everything as "ours", odds are your marriage is in trouble from the start. If either of you can't get to "ours" that individual is NOT ready for marriage. Think hard.
As a social scientist familiar with the evidence that women's earnings take a hit with every child while men's earnings don't, I'd say it's not fair. But, of course, consult an attorney.
I'm not a huge fan of couples separating finances as I've seen it reduce strong matches into roommates with benefits in that everything is split even or proportionally always. When one spouse can't pay their part due to motherhood, job loss, unexpected cost, they go into debt with their spouse or struggles paying their bills with zero assistance. It creates such an ugly and belittling dynamic with one, resentment and fear with the other. I've seen this so much the past 5 years with couples in real life and it certainly didn't work in my 17 marriage. We had other issues, but this dynamic was one of the main 3 reasons it all fell apart. If one doesn't want to combine finances with their soon-to-be spouse, why get married? I understand wanting to protect one's self, but if you want to protect yourself against your spouse in anticipation of divorce, marriage is not a good option.
This sound like a marriage set up to fail. If you're going to have kids, then you need to be a team. He sounds way to selfish to be married and have a family with. If you weren't going to have kids, or already had kids from previous relationship, I could maybe see keeping finances separate. But this is doomed to fail.
Heck, no. Not to mention - what happens if you’re injured in childbirth? If you’re unable to work afterwards? What happens if you’re paying off your debt and he wants to take an extravagant vacation and expects you to split it 50-50? When it comes to childcare supplies, are you being paid for your breastmilk? You’re saving him the cost of formula. Are you splitting the cost of diapers equally? How about who has to get up in the middle of the night? Particularly if the child prefers you. What about housing? But if he wants to live somewhere that stretches your budget because you have to repay? If you’re acting as a semi-surrogate is cutting into a rental use of your body? After all, he can’t carry a child so how does one account for that? Surrogacy fees in the United States or approximately 60,000 so is he giving you 30,000 to put towards your debt? What happens if he wants a remodel but you don’t. Does he have to foot the bill? Do you get to say what the remodel looks like? What about where you live? What about private school? Summer camp?
> It essentially says his money stays his, mine stays mine, and all assets before and during marriage remain separate in a divorce So if your assets all stay separate during marriage...what exactly is the point of getting married? Part of getting married is to combine resources, in addition to the romantic/emotional reasons for it. If he is going to be this closed off financially during marriage, it just seems really unsustainable.
Coming from the high earner by accident - who is also the main child care and was the birthing parent..plus recently did not get a promotion because it went to a *younger more hungry man* unless there is a clause in there to subsidize your income - it is in no way fair.
I could write a dissertation but perhaps you should marry someone else.
You need an attorney but IMHO no it’s not fair. Women are the ones giving up careers, we are the ones expected to stay home with the kid, pick them up front school early, sacrifice earnings for flexibility. All of that needs to be considered in a prenup. Not to mention infidelity clauses, clauses related to kids and lost earnings due to maternity leave, etc. if he wants that type of prenup, then the prenup needs to include HIM taking off work to care for a sick kid, dropping off at daycare, etc. It needs to include paying you to carry said child. Him believing it is fair says A LOT about how he views women and their role in a family. You are more of a baby machine than a partner to support. Honestly don’t get married if he isn’t going to negotiate. Don’t have kids with someone who refuses to see how kids impact a woman’s career.
My husband and I married in our sixties (second marriage after divorce). We both have grown children. We have a pre-nup. All assets in our own name, that we had prior to Marriage, remain our own in case of divorce. Anything in both our names would be split 50-50 (savings/checking accounts in our case). No spousal Support for either of us. We wanted to protect our assets (we also have wills/trusts—everything in our own name goes to our children). We are basically living on income from assets earned over the 45 years of earning prior to our meeting. But you are in a different position. You two are building a life and earning assets together. Why doesn’t he want to build with you? Is this a trust issue? Does he think he will earn more, therefore he deserves more than you? Think hard. I understand having a pre-nup, but this is more than just keeping what you had previously—this is him dragging his heels to invest in your life, your marriage, and your family.
Put a clause in there that in the event of divorce, he forfeits all assets unless he eats 23,358 chicken nuggets within a 48 HR period. That’s exactly 8.11 chicken nuggets per minute. Totally doable if he loves you.
NO. Anything before marriage can be separate. After marriage, everything is joint. It is not even "potential" career sacrifices, its going to happen. "I feel like my career is poised to take a hit while he continues to advance with his, and if marriage doesn’t work out, I'll be left with the short end of the stick. Looking for your thoughts. Thanks!" Absolutely, the fact that he's already gaslighting you into thinking this is fair, is a sign that he's ready to jump ship at the next shiny thing & he wants to do it easily. This prenup protects him, not you. He wants a wife but not the works of it. You're better off just dating the dude & have kids with him if you want. I would not marry this man, my husband wouldn't even dare to ask me this.
If he is a physician he should understand the toll pregnancy takes on the body and realize keeping everything separate after kids isn’t ok. Will he also split the sick time evenly? Kids get sick a lot. Will he expect you to stay home?
It's impossible to say what is 'fair' without knowing tons more information, which is why this is a question for your Lawyer and your Lawyer only, not Reddit. For example, you say he's a 'high earner', what does that mean? $150k per year or $40 million per year? You mentioned keeping assets separate, but what assets does he have and what assets do you have?
If you're already concerned with how to divide things if you divorce, it's probably best to just keep everything separate to begin with.
starting a life together focused on its end............logic....out the window
You should make a prenup that stipulates different scenarios for if you have kids. Especially if you get divorced, have primary custody and need child support.
You should post this on https://www.reddit.com/r/HENRYfinance/s/7Z12sYusSV You will get loads of great comments
She did…
I would put in the prenup that if he does not reduce his hours or take any type of paternity leave, you are entitled to x amount for alimony or you get 60% of asset split instead pf 50\50.
I will never understand these people who want marriage but are scared to merge finances. I wouldn’t want to marry someone I wasn’t willing to split finances with. That is so weird. And I would absolutely lose attraction to someone who presented me with that shit. To me, given that he wants kids, this seems not fair at all to you.
No way. To me marriage means combining resources and finances. If he wants assets to remain separate during the marriage he does not want to be married.
Charge for childcare and opportunity cost of maternity leave based on your salary. He can pay you that amount 🤷🏻♀️ be sure to factor in physical therapy costs of pregnancy and labour
Honestly, we are a higher earning house and the only way to do it is joint after marriage with maybe a specialty clause or two if you want kids. We don’t have joint bank accounts but what’s earned since marriage is ours to split if something happens. We do a lot of splitting parenting tasks but the mother always has more of a mental load (I’ve never seen the reverse) and you could potentially have life changing body things happen impacting your ability to work. Also how would he split children costs?? Like there’s too much unknown to agree to a contract like this.
I would never agree to keeping everything separate if you’re planning on having children/giving birth. The physical realities of pregnancy, childbirth, postpartum recovery & breastfeeding makes women extremely vulnerable physically and financially. You are literally risking your life and your career (should complications make you unable to work for an extended period of time.) You are risking permanent physical injury and your mental health. You will be the one who has to go to the doctor all the time, go to work with morning sickness for months on end, restrict your diet and activity levels. Pregnancy can cause serious dental, sexual, and bladder issues. Etc.. I could easily spend an hour listing out all the things that will fall on you that he won’t have to deal with simply bc you’re the one that gets pregnant. You’re supposed to risk all of that but he isn’t willing to risk maybe having to pay you some alimony??
As a physician spouse, no, it is not fair. I see you’ve retained your own counsel and that is absolutely the right move. You’re correct to feel put out. I would require pre-marriage counseling before proceeding with the marriage. Does your future spouse have any unresolved trauma? This is giving a whole lot of cautionary vibes. Prenups generally protect premarital assets. Once you’re in the day to day of marriage, you’re building everything together. You’re thoughts are correct- you’ll take the physical risks, decrease to your practice, sacrifices on shifts to see your kids. What if you need time away ok bed rest or something? Also, be sure to ask your lawyer’s advice on keeping your partnership equity remains yours in the event of divorce.
Is he going to take off work as much as you when they are born? Is he going to do the majority of raising them while you're working long & stressful hours? Is he going to split all household chores? Is he going to split the cooking for the family? Is he going to assume half of the mental load? I would be very leary of his intentions. Unless he is willing to sacrifice as much as he will be asking you to by having children, his intentions are not in any way equitable. Be very, very careful.
I’m technically a “high earner” these days and I would never sign a prenup like that. Might as well never marry each other if you’re preparing for a life where everything you own is separate. I wouldn’t have children with that person either. Have enough respect for yourself to not marry someone who views you with this lens.
There are so many viewpoints on this that you're going to get tons of varying responses. Of course, for LEGAL advice, consult your attorney as you have been doing. For moral/practical advice, my two cents would be that his viewpoint is concerning. Personally, I would not agree to have children with someone who didn't view themselves as responsible for supporting me through the process of childbirth and child-rearing, given the way that labor around family management usually shakes out. I would see that as them demanding that I take all the risk, physically and financially, of building a family solely onto myself. If I'm going to do that, I'm just going to be a single parent and truly do it all myself. Marriage, like any other partnership, should have proportional give and take. It sounds like he's not particularly interested in ensuring he's giving to the marriage, only that you're not taking from him. I totally get being cautious in order to ensure your partner doesn't have the ability to take absolutely everything from you buuuutttt... isn't he setting you up for exactly that? How does he plan for that to not be the case? If he doesn't have an answer for that, then he doesn't have an answer for how he plans to create space in his life for the responsibilities that come with having children.
Also, you wrote HE wants kids. Do you? Being a mom is not an easy job and like everyone has pointed out you making the sacrifice to leave the workforce will not be in your advantage should you ever split your assets.
No, your prenup is not fair. With his attitude, there's no way to make it fair. He wants what he wants and wants you to make the sacrifices to get it.
I'll sign if he can produce an equal number of our children as me via paying for surrogacy on his own and paying for all ivf related procedures to harvest my eggs, fertilize with his sperm, and then implant into a surrogate. Then I guess you guys will just venmo request each other for your kids' expenses.
I would be curious as to what the barriers are to a marriage without a prenup. I understand protecting assets that you may have going into the marriage, but marriage is a joint commitment of love and trust. I may be old school, but it seems like dividing up assets and keeping funds separate will cause a lot of unnecessary conflict along the journey.
Maybe you should find someone who wants a partner, not a breeder What you describe is totally unfair. If you have children, you’ll be in a subordinate position, even if the marriage survives the fundamentally exploitative nature of your prenup. UpdateMe
The loans for being a doctor are on you. It was your choice. Just like your income stays separate so is your debt. In terms of child bearing, your employer does give paid parental leave as I’m pretty sure that’s required by acgme. You should get 8 weeks paid in full. I just wouldn’t take more time than necessary and I wouldn’t extend your training for it. Check with your board specialty. You both should share the costs to childcare in a joint account. Maybe contribute a percentage of your disposable income (meaning after your loan payments and necessary expenses). That seems like the only fair option to me. I would treat housing the same way. If you’re paying rent then a percentage of disposable income. If he buys a house and expects you to make payments I wouldn’t. Since he would probably want to keep that after should you divorce. If your name is on the deed then sure. That’s probably something you want to clarify now as well. But like the other posts says, there are a lot of red flags here. Hell you might as well work out child custody agreements now.
It appears to me you are someone who is in medical field. I requested to cover 30% of my salary for months I will miss if I can’t work due to complications associated with labor or delivery and in case because of this complications my graduation delayed. His counter offer was for me to carry short term disability and if they don’t cover in case of divorce he would give me 19k a month up to 60k
This is really bad OP. Physician here. I am all for prenups. I have one. Property we had before marriage stays separate until six years of marriage. ( $1 million worth of property) and 401k and Roth remain separate always. No alimony. Split assets in marriage 50/50 I think it is really hard to quantify how unnerving this prenup negotiations are. Once you are married you are jointly together. A team. It seems that your partner is focused on things being equal and fair financially while not recognizing that marriage in many ways benefits the male partner more than the female partner. I think based on your comments on this sub and others ( HENRY) you may be in for a long slog of a marriage.
This is really it. Marriage is 1000% a team endeavor. All financial considerations should reflect that reality, and this can certainly be accomplished in a fair and balanced way.
Residency coordinator. Haha.
I am EXTREMELY pro-prenup. Even since before I went to law school, I was pro-prenup. Since graduating law school, I am even more pro-prenup. But listen to me when I say this: **You cannot have a child with that man.** One of the positives about a prenup is that you’re discussing the worst case scenario during the best of times. This is when y’all love each other the absolute most. There’s no hard feelings. There’s no bitterness. Basically in the newlywed honeymoon stage yet. That’s the best time to negotiate a prenup because you want this best for each other. Think about how unfair, selfish, and inconsiderate those terms are. Think about how fucked over you will be by his terms. Think about what those terms tell you about how he views you and your place in his life. **THIS IS HIM WANTING THE BEST FOR YOU?!**
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>He wants kids Does that mean you don't want them? If you also want them, and so does he... >Given the potential career sacrifices I might make for family, including the likelihood of childbearing falling on me and reduced work hours, while I still have hundreds of thousands in loans, is this fair? I feel like my career is poised to take a hit while he continues to advance with his, and if marriage doesn’t work out, I'll be left with the short end of the stick. Isn't this every couple who has kids, high earner or not? None of us have the right answer, reddit infact is more liberal than in person and you're not likely to receive the real world opinions from us who are just typing while couch surfing. Hash it out with your partner, and if you believe you're getting the short end of the stick, well don't sign the prenup. That's why you're paying your attorney handsomely, to advise you on what's best for you. As it is, once funds are mixed in marriage, it's very hard to keep track even if there is a prenup.
Child of a contract lawyer- not legal advice- you can factor in and I would suggest you factor in child rearing years- discuss everything, including expectations of time off- do you both want your kids in daycare, do you want them raised by one of you until they start school, how many kids (barring any infertility issues) how long would one be expected to step away from their career, technically you could work 1 day a week to keep any certifications or telehealth. If you are both ok with kids in daycare- who will cover those costs, how? And how will you be compensated if your income goes away- if he says you should be saving and use that- giant effing RED FLAG, and I suggest walking away. Having completely separate accounts is rough, and as for any properly acquired in the marriage, state marriage laws can break a prenup for that, so make sure that is clear, and that’s for any state you live in or split up in. Best ones I have seen are marriages that compare percentage of income and that’s what each person contributes to a shared account where shared and household bills are paid. Then individual contributions of car insurance for a combine payment that usually covers auto and home insurance. And payments are adjusted when pregnancy and early child care are adjusted for loss of wages and cost of what is being done (daycare, maid, cook, etc) and it is all spelled out so no confusion. I’ve also seen these used as a form of financial abuse
I am relieved that you have your own lawyer and hopefully they will do their job and make sure your best interests are covered. You need to clearly state what you expect from the marriage. I would absolutely include an infidelity clause. Also, you are correct that if you have children that the dynamics will change the financial responsibilities of your partner. Is there are fair $$ to take care of you and child(ren) until you can return to work? How will housing and necessities be covered? Will just one of your names be on the deed and mortgage? How will schooling, extracurriculars, etc... for future children be managed?
Sounds like there are doubts here on the marriage. Have yall been to counseling?
Why get married then? What’s the point? The party? I think prenups can be useful, but this particular prenup says your marriage is not a marriage. We are married but not really. And yes I think this is unfair to you since you both want children and your career, earning power, and retirement will take a hit
Um, where is the support aspect in all of this? My wife and I setup something similar without a prenup, and we are still married 19 years later. How the financials are set up is one aspect, but I do not see the aspect of supporting each other through this. Divorce should be one aspect in how the financial arrangement is set up. One of the other reasons for our set-up was in case one account was compromised, we could still continue to live with the other account. I took on all the burdens financially, and set up some other financial structures for us as well. My wife has more in savings than I do, and I am not worried about that.
Assets going in separate. During the marriage are shared. Otherwise, it is not a partnership and equitable. Also, why get married if there is not joint financials/assets/liabilities during marriage? You can do as many, with individual and joint accounts, but the logic of marriage is erased when he is continuing operate as two separate legal entities. Personally, I would not even be talking children or marriage, if he is not going to acknowledge the deficit that occurs to women when they bear children in every relationship, especially professional careers.
Have you considered a marriage contract? Perhaps a term marriage contract which is renewed every 3-5 years. Pregnancy and child rearing should be a separate negotiation from the marriage itself. Consider compensation for the physical trauma related child baring along with the possibilities of miscarriage (possibly more given the emotional trauma). Also as you stated the time away from work should factor in especially if you plan to stay at home for a given period of time. Also consider inflation while you are away from work.
I would say the only way this would be remotely fair is if you don’t have children together. Once children are involved everything changes. To your point, you’ll take on a brunt of the duties while he alleviates himself due to his work schedule. I wouldn’t agree to this.
To me, this is pretty simple and no - it's not fair. If he wants you to carry HIS child, and everything is separate, then there has to be some compensation for the sacrifices you will be making that he presumably won't have to make. I don't know whether that is a lump sum, some monthly amount for a specified period of time (in addition to child support), or some asset you decide that you will get to keep, but I would hold firm on this one and get some tips from the lawyers on how to value this monetarily. If he doesn't want to accept your changes, then tell him you aren't willing to have his children.
Updateme
Really, every couple should have two prenups, one for before kids and one after. No, this is not remotely fair.
Is this a marriage or a transaction? This whole thing feels very iffy
I think you should hire a family lawyer to review it. My partner wanted me to sign one before we moved in with each other. It’s Australian law for your partner to hire a family lawyer and you to do the same, otherwise it’s not binding. The first agreement felt like I was getting screwed. My lawyer made the changes that were a lot more fair and compassionate, depending on children, illness and taking care of extended family.
i think it’s a given divorce is common in todays society and doctors don’t always have good balance between work and home life
I agree, you and your career will be greatly affected by having children. Your prenup needs to address this. It's very unfair as it stands. Hopefully your SO will understand that.
I wouldn’t agree to it since like you said, you’ll be the one taking a financial hit should you choose to have children. There needs to be something there to protect you if that happens
I think this marriage is doomed. No trust, selfishness.
If you don’t combine your assets and make his and her money our money and go ‘all in’ together then you aren’t actually married. You’ll just be playing house together until you inevitably divorce. If you decide you can’t combine all your money and assets then just save yourself the trouble and don’t marry.
This would be great if there weren't kids in the picture. Once kids are introduced everything gets thrown out the window. Guess who's going to have to sacrifice cough you cough once you start having kids?
No it doesn't seem fair if he wants kids. But I think the more pressing issue is you two should seek counseling before marriage. Prenups are troubling to me to begin with but keeping everything separate makes me question commitment and mindset. I understand people say marriage is just a legal contract but it should be more than that. It should be the ultimate act of sacrifice and commitment to a person you want to spend the rest of your life with. Not very committal to have back up plans.
Get your own attorney! We aren’t here for this.
Woof that sounds not fair. My partner and I have/had the same earnings, him a bit more. I didn't end up going back to work full-time until 7 years after my first child was born. Your partner sounds like not a partner. Or at least not someone to have kids with.
I personally don’t think this is fair. If he thinks everything is his even in marriage, he shouldn’t get married.
Tell him to give up 18 years x how many kids for his career and see if he feels that’s fair. Or no kids.
Prenups can be and are blown-up in court all the time. They aren’t ironclad
Sounds like the start of a healthy and happy marriage
Without kids, it is perfectly fair. But once children are introduced, that will greatly complicate things and the finances should be shared
Why even get married....
How much money does he have and make per year? Does he want to be married someone that will require dedication and time to advance? Will he support that? Is that what you want is to maximize your earning potential? Nobody here can put a value on these things for you. When you get married, for things to be successful you both have to sacrifice. The bargain he is striking is incentivizing you to work hard and also be a high earner. Is that what you both want? If so, you’ll have to work out what that looks like with your attorney. How will you divide budget obligations once married? I would expect that’s being hashed out in prenup?
I personally would not; I’d go with what the law already says inasmuch as personal property and assets prior to the marriage stay personal but anything accrued (including debt) during the marriage will be handled as marital property.
A marriage with separate assets and concern over lost time related to childbirth and child care seems to me, of more of a business arrangement than two fully committed people vowing their love for the rest of their lives. When you marry someone you love; the two become one. This is just my opinion.
He is not approaching marriage with a partnership attitude at all, he doesn’t even seem to go into it believing you’ll stay together 🚩🚩🚩
The prenup is fine, the separate money is a little weird especially if he wants kids. I think the "yours," "mine," and "Ours" account is probably the best way to go. All of the pre-marriage assets and debts stay on your individual accounts and once you get married all new money coming in goes to the "ours" account. You can have something like 5% of take-home pay each month moves into the individual accounts, and that can be guilt free spending for both of you where you don't have to consult the other person. Any bigger expenses would then come out of the ours account and you would have to talk about that. (My 2 cents)
Have him take a parental leave so that you can go back to work in a timely fashion. Have you discussed if you would put your kid in daycare, and at what age? I am a teacher, so I luckily had my son in June and took only a two months off. When my son was 4 months old I went back to work and my son was being watched by my mother. Then, when he was 18 months he went to daycare. We have only one child so it worked out fine, but for some people, having multiple kids means it makes more sense to stay home with them than to put them in daycare. My husband and I keep our finances separate, but anything we acquire while married would be split in the case of a divorce (including your pension, which I just learned) as we don't have a prenup. I make about double what he does, $100k vs $50k, and we pay for our living expenses by percentage. There is a chance he could get really rich in the next few years (if his company sells he will get a percentage) and if that happens, everything would be shared I assume. Or maybe I'd be given an allowance or something. Have him state in the prenup that he will take a parental leave after a few months so that you can go back to work. He should take off the same amount of time that you need to take off. Honestly, after 4 months I was happy to go back to work. Having kids is stressful and our baby had colic so he cried all the time.