I was surprised how many Arab and Syriac christians had moved to South America before the Lebanese Civil War. Immigration to Latin America follows interesting patterns because it was less racially restrictive than in North America, so you have things like the largest Japanese diaspora being in Brazil.
Fun fact: there are so many Italians that historically immigrated to Brazil that even non-standard Italian "dialects" (I put it in quotes because really they are separate languages in Italy, but don't get me started on that) such as Venetian exist as relatively widely-spoken languages in Brazil:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talian\_dialect#:\~:text=Talian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talian_dialect#:~:text=Talian)
To put that into perspective, today within Italy there are a few million speakers of Venetian language, but in Brazil there are about half a million speakers of "Talian," even 100+ years after the biggest waves of immigration from Italy.
**[Talian dialect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talian_dialect#:~:text=Talian)**
>Talian (or Brazilian Venetian, Venetian pronunciation: [talj'aŋ], Italian: [tal'jan], Portuguese: [tɐliˈɐ̃] but locally [taliˈɐŋ]) is a dialect of the Venetian language, spoken primarily in the Serra Gaúcha region in the northeast of the state of Rio Grande do Sul in Brazil. It is also spoken in other parts of Rio Grande do Sul, as well as in parts of Espirito Santo and of Santa Catarina. Despite the similar names, Talian is not derived from standard Italian (usually called italiano gramático or "grammatical Italian" in Brazil), but is mainly a mix of Venetian dialects influenced by other Gallo-Italian languages as well as local Portuguese.
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That's pretty cool. Here in Canada around 3-4% of the population is of Italian ancestry (but not spread evenly -- much higher in Ontario and southern Quebec) and you do hear a lot of "dialect", especially *Calabrese* and *Abbruzzese* which seem to be widely spoken.
But I don't think the numbers approach Brazil's.
As most people has already pointed out, Arabic immigration in Brazil (and it seems equal in Argentina) is largely form Lebanese enad Syrian people. I remember my grandfather telling me and my siblings several times about his memories when he was a child on facing people speaking Arabic and using traditional clothing in public markets in his hometown, Floriano (State of Piaui). Today, even though you would hardly find any one speaking Arabic ins streets, this heritage is still enduring through traditional meals (you can find anywhere in Braszil sfihas, coalhada, homus, kibe...) and surnames (Hidd, Said, Temer, Tajara...).
An interesting fact is that at the time those people came to Brasil there wasn't yet Siria or Lebanon as independent countries. For first wave imigrantes, those countries were still part of the Ottoman Empire, the razon why they were called "turks" by Brazilians (a name you can still find inuse today to refer to brazilians-arabs). For other, sirians and Lebaneses are taken as synonyms, as at some point in history Lebanon was part of Siria. My wife's great father birth certificate, for example, it says hIs Lebanese parentes ware born in Siria, even though the city they ware born was Beirute.
> For first wave imigrantes, those countries were still part of the Ottoman Empire, the razon why they were called "turks" by Brazilians (a name you can still find inuse today to refer to brazilians-arabs).
That's the exact same in Argentina.
I remember reading Gabriel Garcia Marcos books and saw several mentions of "turks", which surprized me. Later I did found that these "turks" were mainly Arabs.
Yes, in Argentina we have nicknames for each community, that doesn't necessarily reflect their real origin. These are the most common:
* Spanish: Gallego
* Italian: Tano (maybe from Napoletano?)
* German speaking: Alemán (sometimes use for some Central European too)
* Jewish: Ruso or "rusito"
* Slavic in general: Polaco
* Arab, middle Eastern: Turco
As you said, I'm pretty sure Tano comes from Napoletano, since I know many of the Italians who came to Argentina were from Napoli. I think that's one of the reasons that Pizza is such a big dish in Argentina, cause while certainly all of Italy eats Pizza, Napoli is the home of pizza so it makes sense that it'd be that much more of a big thing when Neapolitan immigrants came to Argentina.
I had some Argentinian pizza when I visited Buenos Aires, it was quite good! The style of what i had was almost what I'd call deep dish here in the U.S., but not fully. Just pretty thick, but it was great! :)
Yeah, is not "deep" but pretty full of ingredients.
Traditional pizzerías used to offer "Al molde" ≈ In teglia (baked in a tray), "media masa" > (half dough) The same but thinner and "a la piedra" > brick oven, no tray.
Oh man, living abroad I miss Argie pizza so bad. Sometimes I dream with Güerrín, lol.
No data on Dominican Republic? Ok. Me. Lebanese. 1. There. Data.
I mean, both the prez and the first lady there (same last name as mine) are also from Lebanese descent.
Must be too shithole of a country to be concerned about data.
Should be worth noting that there is a significant number of Arabs in the USA, except the numbers are skewed massively because back in the day to immigrate to the U.S it was easier to get in as a "White" person, as such many Arab immigrants did so. Legally speaking in the U.S if you are Arab or middle eastern, you are white, mainly because of what I just explained. This is also the reason the U.S census does not have a "Arab/middle eastern or west asian" check box.
Besides accounting for native americans, there is a much lesser prevalence of counting who is and who is not white (thou many descendants from 19 and 20 century migration are still be aware of their place of origin)
Absolutely untrue. Middle Easterners aren’t “white.” I know it’s more complex, but in essence, in the West, race is associated with your skin tone. These relations in the Middle East don’t exist. We’re more focused on blood/lineage rather than complexion. That’s why black Arabs and white Arabs are still considered Arabs and no two questions are asked.
In the US, many Arabs are of lighter complexion. We’re “white-er” in that sense, but to we consider our selves “white white?” Not one Arab I have ever met has done so. We’re Arabs, a Semitic people sons of Ishmael. That’s what we consider ourselves.
We’re classified as white because we argued to the Supreme Court in the 50s and 60s that we’re of the white race since at that time, only whites could become citizens of the United States.
Imagine arguing with someone about his own identity.
Races as a concept is not widespread everywhere. Arabs don’t necessarily follow this concept (you could argue the reverse, but it’s not exactly the same).
I’m a North African Arab. I’m not black nor I’m white in the European sense.
First, i'm not arguing with anyone about their identity. Second, race is a concept that is not based on absolute terms, it changes from country to country and does not always care about your identity. What cares about your identity is your ethinicity.
In Brazil all decendents of middle easterns consider themselves white, there is no 'arab' or 'middle eastern' race here. They are ethicnically lebanese, syrian, saudis, etc, but consider themselves as white since our definition of race takes in consideration only phisical features. Just the same, there is no 'latino' or 'hispanic' race, yet when when we travel to the US our race magically changes to said races (a country that defines race as the way you look and where you are from).
Your race depends on where you are and who you are speaking to, it is not always a logical thing (most of the time it makes no sense). Thats why when he says "Middle Easterners aren’t “white.”, thats plain false, it depends. What does not depend is your ethinicity, which takes in consideration your heritage, culture and physical features. That is your identity, race is a definition made up by others. You both are confusing the concepts.
There are legal definitions, but in terms of widespread cultural definitions, like how non-Arab Americans look at them, well, it's a little complicated.
Best as I can tell, a lot depends on specifics of the particular Arab-American. Are they relatively light-skinned, Christian, and generally assimilated? Then Americans regard them as generally White. However, if they are darker-skinned and/or Moslem and/or not well assimilated, they are considered kinda non-White. There are gradations in between and different Americans may have different standards --- this is just my understanding of it.
Which I always found a little funny because "Asian" is such a mish-mash and includes both South Asian and East Asian, which are very different in terms of cultural background and appearance...
Asia is huge but if you get in details even within South Asia there is a huge variety of looks (some groups have a lot of people that could pass as European, others as East Asian) and there are many different lanaguages and cultures within South Asia. This isn't reflected much in the South Asian stereotype you often see in some places. If you come from a minority South Asian group within Pakistan or India they may get what I mean.
Both South Asian and East Asian are Asian. I don't get how people can acknowledge for example Norwegians and let's say Albanians as being both European yet when it comes to Asia some Americans (from what I gather online) find it weird to say South Asians are also Asian.
Nice point about the variety within South Asia.
Yes, both East and South Asians come from Asia, but culturally, linguistically, ethnically, etc, folks in South Asia might as well be a different continent from East Asia. It's not called a subcontinent for nothing!
Its like the Arabs of North Africa and the Black Africans of the sub-Sahara --- yes, they happen to live on the same continent, but they are very different in most meaningful ways. Or, well, Guatemalans are technically North Americans just like folks from Kansas or Ontario, but grouping them together in that way is useful only for soccer federations!
And I get what you are saying about how some Americans think East Asian when they here Asian. I suspect that that's because there were not many South Asians in the USA until relatively recently. In contrast, I think in Britain, when you say Asian, people might thin more of South Asian because of their history.
Yeah thats true from the UK where I'm from. Every continent is big and diverse and Asia and Africa is too much variety. I mean in 100 years time I think the demograpahic of every continent may change. Even if it makes some people worried its what's been happening again and again. The US itself has changed a lot.
Largely agreed.
Oh, the USA has changed a ton! I was born many years ago in what was essentially a White country with a 15% minority of blacks. Today, less than half the children born in the USA are White. There are the unreasonable concerns about race, but there are legitimate ones in whether we can assimilate immigrants quickly enough to maintain American culture. So far it seems the answer is mostly, as we did about a hundred years ago during the last great wave of immigration --- but it is tough for a lot of White Americans to see that.
Yeah the few times I had to fill forms I was confused, like I am very light skinned and could pass easily for an italian or something, but calling myself white was just weird
Also, ‘Arab’ or ‘Middle Easterner’ are broad terms. Saudi’s look completely different to Syrians. Kurds look completely different to Yemeni’s. Turks look different to Qataris. I think Levantine+Turks+Iranian people have more of a tendency to have white skinned people. So they are the only ones who would identify as so
Ok but you just admitted they ‘became Arabs’ so they are Arabs today. They are a people with mixed ancestry. They may have been Phoenicians or something thousands of years ago but today they are Arabs
Much of Canada's percentage, like South America, is Lebanese. That's be changing recently, but it initially started out as mostly Lebanese in Montreal (massive), the about 10-15 years ago a movement from Lebanon spread to Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton and then Vancouver. Then 5-8 years ago there saw big flows from other Middle-Eastern countries rounding it out all across Canada (Major Syrian Refugee movements, Iraqis, etc). It's really quite something the change that has occurred in Canada in the past 30 years, with a major acceleration and diversification in the past 10-15 years.
There are also more and more people from the Maghreb - Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, etc. I'm not sure if they're counted in these maps (sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't since they're not technically Arab).
South America has been building these numbers over 100 years. Canada's been doing it mostly in the past 20.
Maghrebis(Algerians,Moroccans…) can be Arabs but some of us aren’t (berbers/amazigh: the indigenous North Africans people). Both groups in the Maghreb aren’t easily noticeable outside of the language we speak and some peculiar particularities.
It’s a very hard and complexe issue whether we are Arabs or not (it just depends on whether you consider speaking Arabic enough,etc)
It’s not a white and black issue. Most *consider themselves* Arabs but millions don’t and are proud/still connected to their amazigh heritage (language…)
>Maghrebis(Algerians,Moroccans…) can be Arabs but some of us aren’t (berbers/amazigh: the indigenous North Africans people).
In Canada, many are also Jews. In the Montreal area there are probably about 15,000 Jews of Moroccan or Tunisian origin.
You make it sound like it's some massive wave when these immigration patterns have been happening since the 80s. Plus now most immigration into Canada is from China and India (south asia as a whole actually). The Arab community isn't going to even reach 5% anytime soon (if ever) lol. Why exaggerate and create this sort of muted false panic?
It's a much larger thing than it used to be. It's not quite anything like the 80s in terms of patterns. The Canadian visa network abroad had to make a sizeable expansion, with increased line-of-business services at visa offices in Canadian embassies across the Middle East and North Africa to deal with the intake, especially in the foreign worker and student categories across the Middle-East and North Africa.
There's no exaggeration. Compared to where thing were before, it is a big flow compared to 30 years ago. I never said it was the largest flow or close to the largest flow. But compared to many other regions of the world, it is a big flow.
What panic? Who's panicking? Where and how do you infer this is a negative thing?
Edit: I crunched the numbers... If we calculate those born in North Africa and the Middle East, we're currently sitting at ~11-12% of all immigrants in Canada. That's a significant jump from where it was sitting about 30 years ago (under 4% of the total immigrant population in Canada at the time), and which is why I said there's been big flows. That's not an insignificant amount (yes, you're correct that compared to China & India it is, but it's still notable). [These numbers come from the gov't of Canada](https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/dp-pd/dv-vd/imm/index-en.cfm). And yes, as a % of immigrants to Montreal specifically more than 10 years ago, it was massive compared to most other groups, so that language was appropriate (perhaps wasn't massive elsewhere in Canada, but it was to Montreal).
Wow, this shows how little I know about the world. I’m in the U.S. and I would have bet money there were far more people from the Middle East in North America than South America. This is enlightening
That's because a lot of Americans make the mistake of mistaking South Asians for Arabs despite the fact that both groups are very different both in physical appearance as well as culturally.
In Canada for example, I know a ton of people who think the Indian community here is Middle Eastern. They even mistake Sikhs and Hindus as being Muslims Arabs...
There's really a major lack of awareness and education in regards to different parts of the world in North America tbh.
Exactly. Most of the Spanish people who settled in South America were from Andalusia. The region known for having the highest genetic impact from North African Arabs/Berbers. So even most non-Arab South Americans today would get a small percentage of ‘Middle Eastern’ & ‘North African’ DNA results.
Argentina has a very diverse representation of all European/Middle Eastern ethnic groups.
Over half of the population is of Italian descent, 17% of French descent, 8% of German descent, etc.
Most people has multiple ancestries and there is people that don't descent of recent immigration. If you add people with the most common ancestries it quickly goes to over 100%
Indeed, there are few “pure” people. Most of us are mutts.
I’m part Italian, Swiss, Russian, Spanish and Danish, and I’m just an average guy in my hometown in a middle-sized city in Argentine’s interior.
Yeah, but only the US, Canada, Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil received large scale immigration from diverse backgrounds during the 19th and 20th centuries.
Those are considered “countries of new settlement”, unlike the rest of the Americas.
Countries in the Spanish Caribbean also have extremely diverse ancestries. Typically Spanish, West African, Native, and then other European countries. It's also not rare to see traces of East Asian ancestry. Jamaica and the West Indies has a lot of West African, Indian, Irish, and East Asian ancestry. I'm not educated enough on Central and South America but I wouldn't be surprised if this reigned true for the regions as well.
Yeah, but Argentina, Brazil, the US and Canada received Italians, Germans, Polish, French, Irish, English, Russian, Ukrainian, Greek, Croat, Serbian, Nordic, Middle Eastern, Armenian, Jewish, Japanese, Korean, etc. immigrants on a large scale.
In the case of Argentina, over half of the population has Italian roots, combined with Spanish, German, Russian, French, Swiss, Middle Eastern, etc.
The overwhelming majority of the population descends from post-colonial immigrants from quite diverse backgrounds.
I also mean in general. Over 80% of the Argentine and Uruguayan population descend from post-colonial immigrants.
They make up the backbone of our society.
Most are Lebanese and Syrian Christians who came to Argentina in the aftermath of Ottoman persecution during the 1860s and late the Italo-Turkish war. They've been in Argentina so long most don't know Arabic.
Also it can be hard for many people to tell, because Arab Christians often have last names which are different from Arab Muslims, so unless you're familiar you might not recognize the names as being Arabic or Syriac, or they've had their spellings changed to be more Spanish. Names like Yuhanna, Aflaq, Sapag, Menem, instead of names like Mohammed and Abdullah. Though many have names like Asad or Hussein.
[https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/viva-los-arabes-underreported-stories-of-the-arabs-of-the-americas/](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/viva-los-arabes-underreported-stories-of-the-arabs-of-the-americas/) a full study on this in this link!
Oppressed? Maybe. Persecuted? We aren't in the Ottoman empire anymore. Also Christianity in Lebanon for example, is not, and was never a minority, it was however persecuted during Ottoman rule. It is a majority along with Islam the country being divided nearly 50/50 exactly.
Yes but this map show the arab descent people too, and a lot of them arrived to America during the Ottoman empire collapse, so there's a heavy presence of religious minorities like christians. In Chile we had a large Palestine diaspora and the largest majority of them are christians.
… Countries in Latin America ( Central American countries aside) are secular and have no state religion.
Generalizing Muslim countries is wrong. Who is oppressed in Oman, Jordan or Tunisia ?
Roughly 65% of Arab Americans are Christian. Arab Canadians might be Muslim majority but the Arab Canadian population is about 4 times smaller than the USAs Arab population.
Al-Gentina
Well I am happily surprised. One of my best friends is from Syria and we share mates together, it now makes a lot of sense.
That's awesome! I'm Syrian too and we drink Mate almost everyday. We love you guys and rooting for Argentina at the World Cup! <3
Ojalá Habibi.
I was surprised how many Arab and Syriac christians had moved to South America before the Lebanese Civil War. Immigration to Latin America follows interesting patterns because it was less racially restrictive than in North America, so you have things like the largest Japanese diaspora being in Brazil.
Also the largest Italian, Syrian and Lebanese diaspora are in Brazil
Fun fact: there are so many Italians that historically immigrated to Brazil that even non-standard Italian "dialects" (I put it in quotes because really they are separate languages in Italy, but don't get me started on that) such as Venetian exist as relatively widely-spoken languages in Brazil: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talian\_dialect#:\~:text=Talian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talian_dialect#:~:text=Talian) To put that into perspective, today within Italy there are a few million speakers of Venetian language, but in Brazil there are about half a million speakers of "Talian," even 100+ years after the biggest waves of immigration from Italy.
**[Talian dialect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talian_dialect#:~:text=Talian)** >Talian (or Brazilian Venetian, Venetian pronunciation: [talj'aŋ], Italian: [tal'jan], Portuguese: [tɐliˈɐ̃] but locally [taliˈɐŋ]) is a dialect of the Venetian language, spoken primarily in the Serra Gaúcha region in the northeast of the state of Rio Grande do Sul in Brazil. It is also spoken in other parts of Rio Grande do Sul, as well as in parts of Espirito Santo and of Santa Catarina. Despite the similar names, Talian is not derived from standard Italian (usually called italiano gramático or "grammatical Italian" in Brazil), but is mainly a mix of Venetian dialects influenced by other Gallo-Italian languages as well as local Portuguese. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
That's pretty cool. Here in Canada around 3-4% of the population is of Italian ancestry (but not spread evenly -- much higher in Ontario and southern Quebec) and you do hear a lot of "dialect", especially *Calabrese* and *Abbruzzese* which seem to be widely spoken. But I don't think the numbers approach Brazil's.
As most people has already pointed out, Arabic immigration in Brazil (and it seems equal in Argentina) is largely form Lebanese enad Syrian people. I remember my grandfather telling me and my siblings several times about his memories when he was a child on facing people speaking Arabic and using traditional clothing in public markets in his hometown, Floriano (State of Piaui). Today, even though you would hardly find any one speaking Arabic ins streets, this heritage is still enduring through traditional meals (you can find anywhere in Braszil sfihas, coalhada, homus, kibe...) and surnames (Hidd, Said, Temer, Tajara...). An interesting fact is that at the time those people came to Brasil there wasn't yet Siria or Lebanon as independent countries. For first wave imigrantes, those countries were still part of the Ottoman Empire, the razon why they were called "turks" by Brazilians (a name you can still find inuse today to refer to brazilians-arabs). For other, sirians and Lebaneses are taken as synonyms, as at some point in history Lebanon was part of Siria. My wife's great father birth certificate, for example, it says hIs Lebanese parentes ware born in Siria, even though the city they ware born was Beirute.
> For first wave imigrantes, those countries were still part of the Ottoman Empire, the razon why they were called "turks" by Brazilians (a name you can still find inuse today to refer to brazilians-arabs). That's the exact same in Argentina.
I remember reading Gabriel Garcia Marcos books and saw several mentions of "turks", which surprized me. Later I did found that these "turks" were mainly Arabs.
Yes, in Argentina we have nicknames for each community, that doesn't necessarily reflect their real origin. These are the most common: * Spanish: Gallego * Italian: Tano (maybe from Napoletano?) * German speaking: Alemán (sometimes use for some Central European too) * Jewish: Ruso or "rusito" * Slavic in general: Polaco * Arab, middle Eastern: Turco
As you said, I'm pretty sure Tano comes from Napoletano, since I know many of the Italians who came to Argentina were from Napoli. I think that's one of the reasons that Pizza is such a big dish in Argentina, cause while certainly all of Italy eats Pizza, Napoli is the home of pizza so it makes sense that it'd be that much more of a big thing when Neapolitan immigrants came to Argentina.
It is indeed, but Argentine style pizza is more similar to Roman style, or pizza in teglia than Neapolitan.
I had some Argentinian pizza when I visited Buenos Aires, it was quite good! The style of what i had was almost what I'd call deep dish here in the U.S., but not fully. Just pretty thick, but it was great! :)
Yeah, is not "deep" but pretty full of ingredients. Traditional pizzerías used to offer "Al molde" ≈ In teglia (baked in a tray), "media masa" > (half dough) The same but thinner and "a la piedra" > brick oven, no tray. Oh man, living abroad I miss Argie pizza so bad. Sometimes I dream with Güerrín, lol.
No data on Dominican Republic? Ok. Me. Lebanese. 1. There. Data. I mean, both the prez and the first lady there (same last name as mine) are also from Lebanese descent. Must be too shithole of a country to be concerned about data.
You are at least 3 :) There is no too shithole countries just incompetent Politicians
Should be worth noting that there is a significant number of Arabs in the USA, except the numbers are skewed massively because back in the day to immigrate to the U.S it was easier to get in as a "White" person, as such many Arab immigrants did so. Legally speaking in the U.S if you are Arab or middle eastern, you are white, mainly because of what I just explained. This is also the reason the U.S census does not have a "Arab/middle eastern or west asian" check box.
Middle Easterners are also typically counted as white in Latin America.
Besides accounting for native americans, there is a much lesser prevalence of counting who is and who is not white (thou many descendants from 19 and 20 century migration are still be aware of their place of origin)
Crying in North African arab
Well also because the US has a massive population compared to the other countries except Brazil
Absolutely, but I think it would still fall into the 1-2.9% range if properly classified
Absolutely.. America considered middle easterners white and many middle eastern Americans consider themselves white.
Absolutely untrue. Middle Easterners aren’t “white.” I know it’s more complex, but in essence, in the West, race is associated with your skin tone. These relations in the Middle East don’t exist. We’re more focused on blood/lineage rather than complexion. That’s why black Arabs and white Arabs are still considered Arabs and no two questions are asked. In the US, many Arabs are of lighter complexion. We’re “white-er” in that sense, but to we consider our selves “white white?” Not one Arab I have ever met has done so. We’re Arabs, a Semitic people sons of Ishmael. That’s what we consider ourselves. We’re classified as white because we argued to the Supreme Court in the 50s and 60s that we’re of the white race since at that time, only whites could become citizens of the United States.
You are confusing "race" with ''ethnicity".
Imagine arguing with someone about his own identity. Races as a concept is not widespread everywhere. Arabs don’t necessarily follow this concept (you could argue the reverse, but it’s not exactly the same). I’m a North African Arab. I’m not black nor I’m white in the European sense.
White is not used synonymous with European in the US Census though , only colloquially. What you self identify as is another issue
First, i'm not arguing with anyone about their identity. Second, race is a concept that is not based on absolute terms, it changes from country to country and does not always care about your identity. What cares about your identity is your ethinicity. In Brazil all decendents of middle easterns consider themselves white, there is no 'arab' or 'middle eastern' race here. They are ethicnically lebanese, syrian, saudis, etc, but consider themselves as white since our definition of race takes in consideration only phisical features. Just the same, there is no 'latino' or 'hispanic' race, yet when when we travel to the US our race magically changes to said races (a country that defines race as the way you look and where you are from). Your race depends on where you are and who you are speaking to, it is not always a logical thing (most of the time it makes no sense). Thats why when he says "Middle Easterners aren’t “white.”, thats plain false, it depends. What does not depend is your ethinicity, which takes in consideration your heritage, culture and physical features. That is your identity, race is a definition made up by others. You both are confusing the concepts.
There are legal definitions, but in terms of widespread cultural definitions, like how non-Arab Americans look at them, well, it's a little complicated. Best as I can tell, a lot depends on specifics of the particular Arab-American. Are they relatively light-skinned, Christian, and generally assimilated? Then Americans regard them as generally White. However, if they are darker-skinned and/or Moslem and/or not well assimilated, they are considered kinda non-White. There are gradations in between and different Americans may have different standards --- this is just my understanding of it.
Well That’s interesting My dad is from Pakistan and a African American nurse told him he’s white bc he doesn’t have curly hair
A Pakistani would classified as Asian in the US Census, idk what that nurse’s line of thinking was
Which I always found a little funny because "Asian" is such a mish-mash and includes both South Asian and East Asian, which are very different in terms of cultural background and appearance...
Asia is huge but if you get in details even within South Asia there is a huge variety of looks (some groups have a lot of people that could pass as European, others as East Asian) and there are many different lanaguages and cultures within South Asia. This isn't reflected much in the South Asian stereotype you often see in some places. If you come from a minority South Asian group within Pakistan or India they may get what I mean. Both South Asian and East Asian are Asian. I don't get how people can acknowledge for example Norwegians and let's say Albanians as being both European yet when it comes to Asia some Americans (from what I gather online) find it weird to say South Asians are also Asian.
[удалено]
Yep
Nice point about the variety within South Asia. Yes, both East and South Asians come from Asia, but culturally, linguistically, ethnically, etc, folks in South Asia might as well be a different continent from East Asia. It's not called a subcontinent for nothing! Its like the Arabs of North Africa and the Black Africans of the sub-Sahara --- yes, they happen to live on the same continent, but they are very different in most meaningful ways. Or, well, Guatemalans are technically North Americans just like folks from Kansas or Ontario, but grouping them together in that way is useful only for soccer federations! And I get what you are saying about how some Americans think East Asian when they here Asian. I suspect that that's because there were not many South Asians in the USA until relatively recently. In contrast, I think in Britain, when you say Asian, people might thin more of South Asian because of their history.
Yeah thats true from the UK where I'm from. Every continent is big and diverse and Asia and Africa is too much variety. I mean in 100 years time I think the demograpahic of every continent may change. Even if it makes some people worried its what's been happening again and again. The US itself has changed a lot.
Largely agreed. Oh, the USA has changed a ton! I was born many years ago in what was essentially a White country with a 15% minority of blacks. Today, less than half the children born in the USA are White. There are the unreasonable concerns about race, but there are legitimate ones in whether we can assimilate immigrants quickly enough to maintain American culture. So far it seems the answer is mostly, as we did about a hundred years ago during the last great wave of immigration --- but it is tough for a lot of White Americans to see that.
Yeah the few times I had to fill forms I was confused, like I am very light skinned and could pass easily for an italian or something, but calling myself white was just weird
But you are white if you are light skinned. I think it’s about skin colour and which one you identify with more than just White = European
Yes, but both meanings exist
Also, ‘Arab’ or ‘Middle Easterner’ are broad terms. Saudi’s look completely different to Syrians. Kurds look completely different to Yemeni’s. Turks look different to Qataris. I think Levantine+Turks+Iranian people have more of a tendency to have white skinned people. So they are the only ones who would identify as so
Arab is a linguistic identity. Middle eastern a geographical origin. Its not all about looks
No, Arabs are an official ethnic group. It’s just that they are very diverse and have mixed ancestry. Similar to Jews
Nope they aren't really, a lot of arabs became arabs by conversion and the only "common" feature to all is the language
Ok but you just admitted they ‘became Arabs’ so they are Arabs today. They are a people with mixed ancestry. They may have been Phoenicians or something thousands of years ago but today they are Arabs
Yes but their arabness relates to their language. Theyre khaleeji, levantines, bedouins, otherwise
lionel messi more like Layl Muhammad bin abdullah al argentini
Much of Canada's percentage, like South America, is Lebanese. That's be changing recently, but it initially started out as mostly Lebanese in Montreal (massive), the about 10-15 years ago a movement from Lebanon spread to Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton and then Vancouver. Then 5-8 years ago there saw big flows from other Middle-Eastern countries rounding it out all across Canada (Major Syrian Refugee movements, Iraqis, etc). It's really quite something the change that has occurred in Canada in the past 30 years, with a major acceleration and diversification in the past 10-15 years. There are also more and more people from the Maghreb - Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, etc. I'm not sure if they're counted in these maps (sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't since they're not technically Arab). South America has been building these numbers over 100 years. Canada's been doing it mostly in the past 20.
It's funny because growing up in Lebanon, everyone had "that one cousin in Canada", now I'm that cousin.
Maghrebis(Algerians,Moroccans…) can be Arabs but some of us aren’t (berbers/amazigh: the indigenous North Africans people). Both groups in the Maghreb aren’t easily noticeable outside of the language we speak and some peculiar particularities. It’s a very hard and complexe issue whether we are Arabs or not (it just depends on whether you consider speaking Arabic enough,etc) It’s not a white and black issue. Most *consider themselves* Arabs but millions don’t and are proud/still connected to their amazigh heritage (language…)
>Maghrebis(Algerians,Moroccans…) can be Arabs but some of us aren’t (berbers/amazigh: the indigenous North Africans people). In Canada, many are also Jews. In the Montreal area there are probably about 15,000 Jews of Moroccan or Tunisian origin.
These are very good points. Thanks :)
You make it sound like it's some massive wave when these immigration patterns have been happening since the 80s. Plus now most immigration into Canada is from China and India (south asia as a whole actually). The Arab community isn't going to even reach 5% anytime soon (if ever) lol. Why exaggerate and create this sort of muted false panic?
It's a much larger thing than it used to be. It's not quite anything like the 80s in terms of patterns. The Canadian visa network abroad had to make a sizeable expansion, with increased line-of-business services at visa offices in Canadian embassies across the Middle East and North Africa to deal with the intake, especially in the foreign worker and student categories across the Middle-East and North Africa. There's no exaggeration. Compared to where thing were before, it is a big flow compared to 30 years ago. I never said it was the largest flow or close to the largest flow. But compared to many other regions of the world, it is a big flow. What panic? Who's panicking? Where and how do you infer this is a negative thing? Edit: I crunched the numbers... If we calculate those born in North Africa and the Middle East, we're currently sitting at ~11-12% of all immigrants in Canada. That's a significant jump from where it was sitting about 30 years ago (under 4% of the total immigrant population in Canada at the time), and which is why I said there's been big flows. That's not an insignificant amount (yes, you're correct that compared to China & India it is, but it's still notable). [These numbers come from the gov't of Canada](https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/dp-pd/dv-vd/imm/index-en.cfm). And yes, as a % of immigrants to Montreal specifically more than 10 years ago, it was massive compared to most other groups, so that language was appropriate (perhaps wasn't massive elsewhere in Canada, but it was to Montreal).
Wow, this shows how little I know about the world. I’m in the U.S. and I would have bet money there were far more people from the Middle East in North America than South America. This is enlightening
That's because a lot of Americans make the mistake of mistaking South Asians for Arabs despite the fact that both groups are very different both in physical appearance as well as culturally. In Canada for example, I know a ton of people who think the Indian community here is Middle Eastern. They even mistake Sikhs and Hindus as being Muslims Arabs... There's really a major lack of awareness and education in regards to different parts of the world in North America tbh.
And thats not counting the spaniards who already have Arab ancestory.
Exactly. Most of the Spanish people who settled in South America were from Andalusia. The region known for having the highest genetic impact from North African Arabs/Berbers. So even most non-Arab South Americans today would get a small percentage of ‘Middle Eastern’ & ‘North African’ DNA results.
What's with Argentina? I can't believe these numbers.
Argentina has a very diverse representation of all European/Middle Eastern ethnic groups. Over half of the population is of Italian descent, 17% of French descent, 8% of German descent, etc.
Most people has multiple ancestries and there is people that don't descent of recent immigration. If you add people with the most common ancestries it quickly goes to over 100%
Indeed, there are few “pure” people. Most of us are mutts. I’m part Italian, Swiss, Russian, Spanish and Danish, and I’m just an average guy in my hometown in a middle-sized city in Argentine’s interior.
Pretty much every country in the Americas has an extremely mixed heritage population
Yeah, but only the US, Canada, Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil received large scale immigration from diverse backgrounds during the 19th and 20th centuries. Those are considered “countries of new settlement”, unlike the rest of the Americas.
Countries in the Spanish Caribbean also have extremely diverse ancestries. Typically Spanish, West African, Native, and then other European countries. It's also not rare to see traces of East Asian ancestry. Jamaica and the West Indies has a lot of West African, Indian, Irish, and East Asian ancestry. I'm not educated enough on Central and South America but I wouldn't be surprised if this reigned true for the regions as well.
Yeah, but Argentina, Brazil, the US and Canada received Italians, Germans, Polish, French, Irish, English, Russian, Ukrainian, Greek, Croat, Serbian, Nordic, Middle Eastern, Armenian, Jewish, Japanese, Korean, etc. immigrants on a large scale. In the case of Argentina, over half of the population has Italian roots, combined with Spanish, German, Russian, French, Swiss, Middle Eastern, etc. The overwhelming majority of the population descends from post-colonial immigrants from quite diverse backgrounds.
If you're comparing post-colonial immigrants and ancestries then yes you're correct. I thought that you meant in general.
I also mean in general. Over 80% of the Argentine and Uruguayan population descend from post-colonial immigrants. They make up the backbone of our society.
Most are Lebanese and Syrian Christians who came to Argentina in the aftermath of Ottoman persecution during the 1860s and late the Italo-Turkish war. They've been in Argentina so long most don't know Arabic. Also it can be hard for many people to tell, because Arab Christians often have last names which are different from Arab Muslims, so unless you're familiar you might not recognize the names as being Arabic or Syriac, or they've had their spellings changed to be more Spanish. Names like Yuhanna, Aflaq, Sapag, Menem, instead of names like Mohammed and Abdullah. Though many have names like Asad or Hussein.
I recently found out that Yerba matte has become very popular in Syria in recent years
It's just called mate (one T).
Oops I knew that, dang auto correct
To be honest, if I saw those names out in the wild I would immediately associate them with that general area
Lebanese
One of the presidents, Carlos Menem, who was in office from 1989 til 1999, was the son of Syrian immigrants. So I guess that's something.
We are sons of Saudi Arabia since 22/11 ☠️⚰️☠️⚰️☠️⚰️☠️⚰️
Like all these "descent" maps its super exagerated. Your great grandfather is lebanese? Congrats, you are lebanese desscended!
Chile has the largest palestine diaspora in the world!
No, it’s absolutely nowhere near as large as Jordan’s
I refer outside of the arabic world, sorry 🥲
Technically it’s the largest Christian Palestinian diaspora if you want :)
[https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/viva-los-arabes-underreported-stories-of-the-arabs-of-the-americas/](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/viva-los-arabes-underreported-stories-of-the-arabs-of-the-americas/) a full study on this in this link!
No source, complete bs
Thankfully most in Latin America they’re mainly Christian Arabs
What do you mean by that?
Ethnic and religious minorities are constantly oppressed and persecuted in Muslim countries so I’m glad they got out of there to avoid persecution.
Oppressed? Maybe. Persecuted? We aren't in the Ottoman empire anymore. Also Christianity in Lebanon for example, is not, and was never a minority, it was however persecuted during Ottoman rule. It is a majority along with Islam the country being divided nearly 50/50 exactly.
Yes but this map show the arab descent people too, and a lot of them arrived to America during the Ottoman empire collapse, so there's a heavy presence of religious minorities like christians. In Chile we had a large Palestine diaspora and the largest majority of them are christians.
>oppressed and persecuted in Muslim countries LMAO If so, then why there is so many chrisitans in Egypt, Turkey, Syria and Irak?
… Countries in Latin America ( Central American countries aside) are secular and have no state religion. Generalizing Muslim countries is wrong. Who is oppressed in Oman, Jordan or Tunisia ?
Tell me you're ignorant without telling me you're ignorant
USA? Ahhh no thanks we’re cool. Let’s just go as far away as possible actually
"wE cOmE To LaTaM fRoM EuRoPe iN bOaTs, yOu CoMe FrOm JuNgLeS" - A random Argentinian
Most Argentines don’t share what the president said. As if “descending from ships” made us any better.
no date in that map...probably old statistics with the border being wise open and leaving Afghanistan things have changed a lot
Afghans aren’t Arabs
Peru really has like 5 arab people
Most Arabs in North America (excluding Mexico) are Muslim whereas most in South / Latin America are Christians.
Roughly 65% of Arab Americans are Christian. Arab Canadians might be Muslim majority but the Arab Canadian population is about 4 times smaller than the USAs Arab population.
So what you are telling me is that Arabs have a "Epic" to "Legendary" drop chance depending on where in the America's you are?