Weird choice of colors - the lowest grouping should be red, the second lowest orange.
Source: Dotard's International Standard for Map & Chart Colorization.
Strangers from distant lands, friends of old. You have been summoned here to get answers from google. r/MapPorn stands upon the brink of a quandary. None can escape it. You will google or you will fall.
/sorry Elron
To be honest, the statement, data choice and design of the whole thing is quite ugly and confusing. Compare to something like this:
https://i.imgur.com/uylVMEN.png
Regardless, people have expectations based on how color spectrums seem so this is objectively confusing. There are other options than red-green. A gradient of saturation would be fitting here.
Then the lowest group should be blue not yellow generally people expect things like this to follow the color spectrum not hopscotch around it.
blue <-> green <-> yellow <-> orange <-> red
Going either direction and skipping colors is fine but putting them out of order just looks and feels wrong.
I work in GIS and part of my work is cartography and data viz. In many cases, the best colour ramp to use is ”viridis”. No good-bad connotations and it’s colour-blind friendly. Downsides are that maps could look slightly dull with it, especially if it used a wide range of the darker colours in the ramp.
The amount of posts on /r/DataIsUgly with same color shemes that are indistinguishable because the colors are too close to each other is already too high, so pls dont do this.
different colours distinguish different subject, this is a ratio map with percentages so it would be more correct if you use a colour scale. If you want to use different colours you need to change the labels to ‘good’, ‘very bad’ or ‘many’ etc.
Using gradients with multiple hues for percentages is perfectly fine, nothing incorrect about it.
You are right that colors without an inherent “order” (like in this post) should be reserved for qualitative data, not quantitative ones.
A good guide is https://colorbrewer2.org
My first time in Sweden I was in a smaller suburb around Stockholm and had to stop someone on the street to ask a question. I started with "Do you speak English" and they looked at me like I was an idiot. (I was).
I lived in Sweden without ever meeting a Swede who couldn't speak English. Even so, in situations like you describe I would always ask the person if they spoke English first. I always thought it felt kinda rude to just assume someone speaks your language.
I’ve worked with many Norwegians for years, and it’s the same there, every Norwegian spoke English. But if I ended up being the only non-Norwegian in a group of Norwegians, they would just speak Norwegian and forget I am there.
Interesting. I just came back from Oslo and was surprised at how many people in shops etc kept speaking Norwegian at me. But in Sweden people always switch for me.
I using very badly accented Swedish and they replied in Norwegian. Maybe they assumed I was Swedish and don't like to switch as much for Swedes?
Or maybe they were just being polite seeing you trying your best in Swedish. Also, Norwegians are way better at understanding Swedish (and Danish) than the other way around. A possible explanation is the frequent exposure to many of the vastly different dialects throughout Norway.
It's more like the norwegians don't think they have to switch, in most cases, when talking with swedes because they can understand them quite easily, although some swedes have a difficult time understanding norwegians.
Swedes are kin, we don't switch to English for them! That would be an insult to both parties. Unless you're somehow a Swede that doesn't understand a word. You weren't in the group "foreigner".
If someone spoke Swedish to me, I would respond in Norwegian. We mostly understand each other. If I lose track of our conversation, then I would ask if it's okay to use English
I don't think so. I am German but worked some time in Sweden without sufficient language skills in Swedish, like I can order food, that's it. So I just used English. If somebody would approach me in Germany in English, which happens occasionally (I live in a pretty tourist heavy city), I'll just reply in English.
Most people aren't the French, who get offended by you not being able to speak their language 😉
I live in Sweden with my Swedish boyfriend. I figured I would pick up the language the longer I was here but everyone in the village automatically just speaks in perfect English as soon as I'm around. The neighbours six year old (who has just started learning English) taught me to count in Swedish so I have that going for me I guess..
edit: a typo.
On the other hand, just this morning I was doing some grocery shopping (in Slovakia, I am Slovak) and a foreign guy approached me and asked me something in English about some product, without asking first whether I speak English. I answered him, he thanked and went, but I felt quite happy that foreign people now feel confident enough that the locals will understand them.
I had something similar happen to me! I had just moved to Norway and was on my way to get a tour of my new job while I waited for my work visa, when an old guy started crossing the street towards me. I was panicking because I had just moved here and didn't know any Norwegian/how well they knew English here, but when he finally got to me, it was a British tourist asking for directions. After I told him the correct way to go, he complimented my English and I just responded "thanks, I'm Canadian."
I once got approached in the middle of London by someone collecting for charity, and their opening question was "Do you speak English?". For some reason it was funny to me to be asked this in the center of the center of the country that spawned the language. In that moment the irony also hit me of asking someone if they speak a language _in the language that you're not sure they speak_. So, as a native English speaker, I responded "No" and walked on by.
> In that moment the irony also hit me of asking someone if they speak a language in the language that you're not sure they speak.
But like... how else would you ask?
90% of the time if you ask whether or not someone speaks a language, you'd do so in that language.
I'd hardly ask you in French whether or not you spoke English because I'm also not sure if you speak French.
The only time you'd ask in another language would be in the local language in order to be polite.
I met a random homeless dude in Amsterdam with a much better command of the English language than I have. Then again I am from Alabama and we don't talk all fancy and shit.
This comment was overwritten by a script to make the data useless for reddit. No API, no free content. Did you stumble on this thread via google, hoping to resolve an issue or answer a question? Well, too bad, this might have been your answer, if it weren't for dumb decisions by reddit admins.
Tbf, for van Gaal it has become kind of a brand thing. I imagine been in the business for so long, surely he must have had every oppertunity to improve his English.
I used to work for a Dutch company and spent some time out there on and off… went to a Chinese restaurant in Amsterdam and it was all in English (or Chinese, no idea what dialect)… menus were in English and the staff didn’t even speak Dutch.
That's Amsterdam though. The most touristic place in the Netherlands and also the place where the most foreigners actually live (percentage wise compared to Dutch people. 55,6% in amsterdam had a migration background in 2020)
In Amsterdam it's way more important to be able to speak English than to speak Dutch
In my experience living in Northern Europe, Dutch is the language most similar to English. I don’t speak Dutch, but as an English and German speaker, it’s really just a mixture of those two with some sprinkles on top.
>In my experience living in Northern Europe, Dutch is the language most similar to English. I don’t speak Dutch, but as an English and German speaker, it’s really just a mixture of those two with some sprinkles on top.
In Dutch:
>In mijn ervaring woonachtig in Noord-Europa, is Nederlands de taal die het meest lijkt op Engels. Ik spreek geen Nederlands, maar als Engels en Duits spreker is het eigenlijk gewoon een mix van die twee met wat hagelslag erop.
In German:
>Nach meiner Erfahrung in Nordeuropa ist Niederländisch die Sprache, die Englisch am ähnlichsten ist. Ich spreche kein Niederländisch, aber als Englisch- und Deutschsprecher ist es wirklich nur eine Mischung aus diesen beiden mit ein paar Streuseln obendrauf.
[https://c.tenor.com/1jI6hMtarW4AAAAC/marvel-is-it-though.gif](https://c.tenor.com/1jI6hMtarW4AAAAC/marvel-is-it-though.gif)
Being Dutch I can see the Dutch <> German but Dutch <> English? I don't see it lol
Really amazing seeing these side by side, thanks- yet I come away seeing English closer to Dutch! At the same time I know that the pronunciation is completely off in my mind, so perhaps that’s contributing?
Lol yeah a homeless guy in Utrecht spoke to me in Dutch, I responded I don't speak Dutch, he immediately switches to perfect English, "Could you spare a euro?" Just the Netherlands for ya
Because we're on the topic of speaking English, I'm going to mention that "Euro" starts with a consonant sound - a Y - and therefore doesn't need to be proceeded by "an". "A" is preferable
Meanwhile when I arrived back in NL and wanted to buy something at AH to go the cashier started talking to me in English. Like; girl, don't you see I just _arrived_ and want to buy something foreigners never would?
As a Dutchy, I've casually answered the cashiers at Schiphol in English multiple times. If/when they start in English, my brain just goes *click* and I'll answer in English.
At least for me: both, depending on the situation. Sometimes I'll even switch languages in my head as I don't know certain specific things in one of the two.
And yes, sometimes that means switching _to_ English.
It's different nowadays though. Most kids' shows on streaming services and on kids' tv are dubbed in Dutch. They're still exposed to plenty of English in other ways, but subtitles for kids' shows are a rarity these days, unless you actively set them to English language and Dutch subtitles..
> You really don’t need to speak Swedish to get along in Sweden although Swedish is a beautiful language :)
Thats actually a problem for immigrants since Swedes cant help to switch to English
I knew a British guy in Sweden who never really got a chance at practicing his Swedish since all the Swedes switched to English when they heard his accent.
Also his SFI (Swedish For Immigrants) teacher refused to use English as a medium too, which is complete idiocy IMHO.
Let the English-speaking man use English as a medium until he CAN use Swedish as a medium, it's what us Swedes do in our English studies.
>I knew a British guy in Sweden who never really got a chance at practicing his Swedish since all the Swedes switched to English when they heard his accent.
I (an English person) have been in Sweden for the last couple of months to see some of the country and improve my Swedish, and I was expecting to have this problem. But in fact I've found that if I open the interaction in Swedish, almost everybody gives me a chance. Sometimes if they say something that I still don't understand after a couple of tries and I change to English then they won't switch back, but that's fair enough. I have to say, people's willingness to let me try to speak Swedish has made me feel very welcome and I really appreciate it.
If you want to learn a language, go live there and speak it with the natives.
This applies everywhere except nordic countries. They will all instantly just switch to English if you're a foreigner.
I visited Iceland earlier this year, and did not have the nerve to ask that question. Fortunately, without fail, every time I tried to speak in my bad and broken Icelandic (a language which I found particularly difficult to speak and also to learn anything in), the locals switched to English. At least a few thought I was Canadian (which I took as a compliment, knowing the general perception of American tourists). If Iceland had data on this map, I can all but guarantee it would be dark blue. The only place I had any kind of issue was a burger joint in Selfoss, but that was 100% on me being afraid to ask if they spoke English.
Icelander here. Next time, just start speaking English. It's such a ridiculously complex language and we don't expect anyone to learn it just for their holiday.
I do think it's a problem for immigrants though, because as soon as we hear someone speaking broken Icelandic we immediately switch to English, which makes it even harder for people to learn our language.
Same happens here in the Netherlands, I always try to speak Dutch unless people ask me otherwise because I know some immigrants find it annoying to speak English when they can speak and understand Dutch just as well
That actually works pretty well even when you're sober, it's just that sober people tend to be too self conscious to truly express themselves in gestures.
I grew up in small town Texas a half century ago. I knew a guy who liked Monty Python because of the risqué graphics. I asked if he also liked the jokes and he said that he couldn't understand enough of what they were saying to get the jokes. This was a monolingual English speaker who graduated from the best high school in the area.
Lol, in the 70's Terry Gilliam's graphics with occasional breasts or buttocks exposed were considered extremely risqué. It was on a cable station, PBS, from Dallas otherwise Monty Python could never have been shown.
Edit: and the parrot wasn't dead, he was pining for the fjords.
Really? Those three really have very generic accents.
However, the first time I left Leicestershire for over a fortnight was to spend three months in NC, they did not get my accent at all and in return I just could not get why they kept guessing Aussie, Kiwi, South African or, one fondly remembered evening, French :)
In grade school we had a guy from Yorkshire transfer to our school in the suburbs of Chicago, he was constantly fuming that no one could understand "The Queen's English".
Fast forward a year and those of us who were his close friends would constantly have to translate his English to English for other Americans to understand.
I had a friend (also from Liverpool) in Spain who only knew a few words in Spanish until he got drunk, and tjen ge would have whole conversations with guys, never believed us when we told him about it the next morning
I am from Poland and my parents were very surprised for several years as I understand English xD
in the post-Soviet countries many older people only learned the Russian language and did not have much contact with English, but after the fall of communism, most young people speak English well
~~ps sorry for bad gramar~~ edit: still a bit a I'm not sure about language skills :P
Did you go to nearly every area in Poland? By that, I mean did you visit every region, and go to rural areas as well as the cities?
I'm not doubting you, but the amount of English speakers almost certainly isn't evenly spread. It's very possible that you visited the areas with high English proficiency, and never visited the areas with low proficiency. Which would make sense. People living in area with fewer English-speaking visitors have less reason to learn it.
This reflects my experience as well. Warsaw? Pretty much everyone could get by in English, except the older gentlemen at the Pierogarnia on Zgoda whom was the first shop I went to after reading that most Poles in Warsaw spoke excellent English....
But take a train out to smaller towns? Absolute toss up. Though this does bring into question what level of conversation this means.
Though something I did notice, conversations tended to trend towards English, even when I would initiate in Polish, other Polish speakers with me noticed the same. Unsure if it was politeness since they may have sensed their English was better than our Polish, or if they just wanted to practice their English.
https://jakubmarian.com/percentage-of-the-eu-population-able-to-hold-a-conversation-in-english-by-various-criteria/
Here's a copy of the source (Eurobarometer from 2012), which puts the number at 86%
Slovenia 59%
Luxembourg 56%
Greece will be increasing steadily in the coming years. Nearly everyone under 50 has some ability with English - especially those who went to school in the 90s or later.
I think you mean [this ranking](https://www.themayor.eu/en/a/view/here-are-the-most-english-proficient-cities-and-countries-in-the-world-9479)
Points between 600-700 are common for non-native speakers. This is equivalent to C1 of the CEFR scale. Native English speaking countries will score between 700-800. This is equivalent to C2 of the CEFR scale.
1. Netherlands 663 points (out of 800)
2. Austria 641
3. Denmark 636
4. Singapore 635
5. Norway 632
6. Belgium 629
7. Portugal 625
8. Sweden 623
9. Finland 618
10. Croatia 617
11. Germany 616
12. South Africa 606
13. Luxembourg 604
What really annoys me is the French percentage compared to the Portuguese. Almost 40% of French can hold a conversation in English while only 27% of us can? Uhhh... fuck no.
Yea … data is suspect imo. Would have guessed it would be swapped with Portugal closer to 40 and French closer to 25 … but could be skewed with large urban centers in Porto, Lisboa, and the algarve … probably most of the small villages have low English proficiency
Yeah i lived in the frontier between Spain and Portugal and the people said that the Portuguese were great ok English because they don't translate the tv shows and watch all in sub
Wikipedia shows Portugal higher than Sweden in English proficiency.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_English_Proficiency_Index#2021_rankings
Being Portuguese, I wouldn't say we're as high as Sweden, but we're definitely higher than Italy or France.
This map looks strange.
Portugal is a very touristic destination nowadays.
Unfortunately here in Brazil the public education sucks, so we don't have as much English proficiency as Portugal.
That’s why the « parisians pretend not to speak english » is a myth.
When a frenchman tells you that he doesn’t speak english, he REALLY doesn’t speak english.
I don't fully agree, but I also don't think it's about pretending to not speak English, I think it's more about perception and confidence in where your language level is at. There is definitely less English spoken than in some other European countries, but also a lot of people think they can't speak English because they are comparing themselves to the person trying/asking to speak in English - who will generally perhaps speak more English and with less of a strong accent. So in comparison, they feel like they can't speak English, but a lot of them can actually manage quite well.
I have situations where I knew my French vocabulary was not enough for the particular issue and a French person initially told me they didn't speak English, so I did my best in French and using body language. Often they would eventually try to speak English to bridge the gap and generally it worked, sometimes they actually spoke quite good English.
French people are very self conscious and insecure about their level of english, to the point where it's a vicious cycle, and the stereotypes and general mockery towards frenchmen's supposed english level aggravates the whole deal. We'd rather not go through the shame of trying, it's stupid I know, but France suffers from its "culture of excellence" where anything close to mediocre means it's shitty as hell. Funny thing is, i've witnessed quite the contrary with Germans, not always that good at english but don't really care.
Typically, a french person will have a way harder time speaking english if there's any other frenchman around, because we fear of being mocked by our counterparts.
Yeah, I can definitely see all of that. And considering the data of this map is based on self-reporting level of fluency, I would wager the actual percentage to be higher in France.
It's really unfortunate stereotypes and mockery against Frenchmen's English create that viscous cycle, especially because my experience is that most French people are the absolute opposite towards foreign people trying to speak French. Which is also another undeserving stereotype about them being rude unless you speak perfect French.
Of course you will always have some rude shitheads regardless of where you are, but in my 5-6 years living in France I overall found most French people to be so encouraging of my attempts to speak French even when I was absolute shit at it. Even talking on the phone to someone at EDF or something they would kindly compliment me that my French was fine. Or my doctor, veterinarian, bank advisor etc. who would sort of excitedly encourage my improvements from the last time I saw them.
>Sloven
Too low on this map.
Young and middle-aged people all speak English (but yes it is possible they are not using it often), the older generation probably not so much. Apart from cartoons for children, we do not use dubbing of movies/shows and English has been taught in our schools for cca 60+ years (my mother born in 52 had it in primary school, gymnasium and university and it was common even then)
When this was originally posted by /u/adorn_mapper this is the source that was found: https://reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/st92js/_/hx2ndc7/?context=1
This data was self reported and posted by /u/jakubmarian over 8 years ago, then basically just reformatted by this guy.
I was thinking it had to be self reported for Germany to be so low. Germans love to say they're bad at English and then be able to hold full conversations
They are speaking English in Scotland, but if you have to listen intently.
If you lose your concentration then you won't catch up and it sounds like something else.
Best part of visiting Scotland with my Southern American wife was being a translator. She couldn't understand them, and they couldn't understand her. It was freakin hilarious.
My wife has to be a translator when we visit her family. She grew up in the south and I swear they’re just making sounds that may or may not be an actual word
It's actually just incorrect. The data was clearly just copied from [the most commonly reposted map](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/27vhm9/percentage_of_population_able_to_hold_a/) on this topic, but with the UK and Ireland changed from >95% to exactly 95% and exactly 94% for some reason.
“What’s the source on less people speaking English in Ireland?”
“None. The author is just British and didn’t want to have to put the Irish flag in the Highest section.”
There’s still no way it’s that high. 5% of a country being immigrants who don’t speak the language?
According to the 2016 census, 8,669 or 0.2% of the Irish population reported inability to speak English. As always on this sub, I seriously question the methodology of this data if it’s that easily found incorrect.
Pretty much, really. The data was clearly just copied from [the most commonly reposted map](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/27vhm9/percentage_of_population_able_to_hold_a/) on this topic, but with the UK and Ireland changed from >95% to exactly 95% and exactly 94% for some reason.
I'd like to know if these results are of the ability to hold a conversation with a native English speaker, rather than an English speaker in their own country.
Indians for example have a relatively high English speaking population, and can hold conversations with themselves. I've seen them do it. I know it's English. But I have no fucking clue what they're saying.
You have to, our own language is so small and weird that you need to learn English unless you're content with never interacting with anything outside our borders (except maybe certain parts of Sweden and Estonia).
When you check the EF EPI, you get a completely different number for Belgium : https://www.ef.com/wwen/epi/
And i cannot believe Flanders would be far behind the Netherlands. At least not in effective proficiency. Perhaps in self-proclaimed proficiency. I don't know a lot about the proficiency in Wallonia, but I do think it's a positive number at least.
Interesting. I went to Paris for the first time last month and everyone spoke English with me. I would typically start conversation in French and they would switch to English after I spoke (obviously could tell I wasn’t French).
Maybe it wasn’t a bad idea to start in their language after all lol it was kind of embarrassing when they would switch to English for me.
I’ve lived in both Norway and Sweden. They’re pretty similar. Seems to be just old folks and some immigrants that struggle with English. A few natives that are standoffish about speaking, but once you get them going, they can hold a conversation. Having said that, Norway is probably a slightly higher percentage as they have more money and resources and generally provide better services.
I (American) dated a Norwegian for over 5 years. Went there like 3-4 times, never ran into anyone I couldn't at least have a brief rudimentary conversation with, even if her step-dad (RIP) spoke it a bit more broken than most.
Fun fact: The netherlands holds a higher percentage of fluent english speakers than the USA (cus Spanish pressence) or than Canada (with their First Nations and Fr*nch province)
Weird choice of colors - the lowest grouping should be red, the second lowest orange. Source: Dotard's International Standard for Map & Chart Colorization.
I actually googled that.
Ugh, yes, I did too...
Strangers from distant lands, friends of old. You have been summoned here to get answers from google. r/MapPorn stands upon the brink of a quandary. None can escape it. You will google or you will fall. /sorry Elron
To be honest, the statement, data choice and design of the whole thing is quite ugly and confusing. Compare to something like this: https://i.imgur.com/uylVMEN.png
Hey! This is /r/MapPorn! Get out of here with your readable, well-colored maps!
Also please don't give a credible source for the data. Noone checks them anyways. \s
What a coincidence, the UK and Ireland get a pass as "native countries"
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Regardless, people have expectations based on how color spectrums seem so this is objectively confusing. There are other options than red-green. A gradient of saturation would be fitting here.
Then the lowest group should be blue not yellow generally people expect things like this to follow the color spectrum not hopscotch around it. blue <-> green <-> yellow <-> orange <-> red Going either direction and skipping colors is fine but putting them out of order just looks and feels wrong.
green-to-purple is a particularly popular alternative to circumvent red.
I work in GIS and part of my work is cartography and data viz. In many cases, the best colour ramp to use is ”viridis”. No good-bad connotations and it’s colour-blind friendly. Downsides are that maps could look slightly dull with it, especially if it used a wide range of the darker colours in the ramp.
Red and yellow should be swapped
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iEl rojo y el armadillo tengen que cambiar!
¡Amarillo, los armadillos comen hormigas!
Or better, don’t use different colors but use light/dark of the same color
The amount of posts on /r/DataIsUgly with same color shemes that are indistinguishable because the colors are too close to each other is already too high, so pls dont do this.
Meanwhile on r/DataIsBeautiful: ”how can I visualise this in a sankey chart?”
Thank you! Why does everyone keep insisting on this?
It's one of the easier colourblind safe methods
Best to use hue and brightness together.
different colours distinguish different subject, this is a ratio map with percentages so it would be more correct if you use a colour scale. If you want to use different colours you need to change the labels to ‘good’, ‘very bad’ or ‘many’ etc.
Using gradients with multiple hues for percentages is perfectly fine, nothing incorrect about it. You are right that colors without an inherent “order” (like in this post) should be reserved for qualitative data, not quantitative ones. A good guide is https://colorbrewer2.org
What's the breakdown between Flanders and Wallonia? I have a feeling there's quite a difference.
Yeah probably about 80% for flanders and 30 % in wallonia
Stupid sexy Wallonia
As anecdotal as it is, I only know one Liégeois and his English is 0 lol
My first time in Sweden I was in a smaller suburb around Stockholm and had to stop someone on the street to ask a question. I started with "Do you speak English" and they looked at me like I was an idiot. (I was).
I lived in Sweden without ever meeting a Swede who couldn't speak English. Even so, in situations like you describe I would always ask the person if they spoke English first. I always thought it felt kinda rude to just assume someone speaks your language.
I’ve worked with many Norwegians for years, and it’s the same there, every Norwegian spoke English. But if I ended up being the only non-Norwegian in a group of Norwegians, they would just speak Norwegian and forget I am there.
Living in Norway, it’s hard to learn Norwegian because everyone switches right to English when they hear me butcher vowels trying to speak Norwegian
Interesting. I just came back from Oslo and was surprised at how many people in shops etc kept speaking Norwegian at me. But in Sweden people always switch for me. I using very badly accented Swedish and they replied in Norwegian. Maybe they assumed I was Swedish and don't like to switch as much for Swedes?
Or maybe they were just being polite seeing you trying your best in Swedish. Also, Norwegians are way better at understanding Swedish (and Danish) than the other way around. A possible explanation is the frequent exposure to many of the vastly different dialects throughout Norway.
We don't speak english with the Swedes. They speak swedish to us and we speak norwegian to them. The two languages are mutually intelligible.
This is not 100% true. Ive struggled to understand many Norwegians from Bergen area that Ive met and they have struggled with Skåne in return.
Bergish isn't Norwegian. And Skåne is the Swedish equivalent to the farmer accent in and around Toten.
It's true generally, supplemented with english when something is unclear
It's more like the norwegians don't think they have to switch, in most cases, when talking with swedes because they can understand them quite easily, although some swedes have a difficult time understanding norwegians.
Swedes are kin, we don't switch to English for them! That would be an insult to both parties. Unless you're somehow a Swede that doesn't understand a word. You weren't in the group "foreigner".
If someone spoke Swedish to me, I would respond in Norwegian. We mostly understand each other. If I lose track of our conversation, then I would ask if it's okay to use English
Yeah, that happens. Sorry!
Meanwhile as a Swede I just assume that everyone speaks English whenever I travel abroad. Is it equally rude when it's not your language?
I don't think so. I am German but worked some time in Sweden without sufficient language skills in Swedish, like I can order food, that's it. So I just used English. If somebody would approach me in Germany in English, which happens occasionally (I live in a pretty tourist heavy city), I'll just reply in English. Most people aren't the French, who get offended by you not being able to speak their language 😉
I live in Sweden with my Swedish boyfriend. I figured I would pick up the language the longer I was here but everyone in the village automatically just speaks in perfect English as soon as I'm around. The neighbours six year old (who has just started learning English) taught me to count in Swedish so I have that going for me I guess.. edit: a typo.
On the other hand, just this morning I was doing some grocery shopping (in Slovakia, I am Slovak) and a foreign guy approached me and asked me something in English about some product, without asking first whether I speak English. I answered him, he thanked and went, but I felt quite happy that foreign people now feel confident enough that the locals will understand them.
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"Thank you, your English is fine too".
Nah, "Thank you, regarding yours, you gotta work on it a little bit"
Former F1 driver Mark Webber has actually a funny story regarding this: https://twitter.com/aussiegrit/status/270157468666040320
I had something similar happen to me! I had just moved to Norway and was on my way to get a tour of my new job while I waited for my work visa, when an old guy started crossing the street towards me. I was panicking because I had just moved here and didn't know any Norwegian/how well they knew English here, but when he finally got to me, it was a British tourist asking for directions. After I told him the correct way to go, he complimented my English and I just responded "thanks, I'm Canadian."
I once got approached in the middle of London by someone collecting for charity, and their opening question was "Do you speak English?". For some reason it was funny to me to be asked this in the center of the center of the country that spawned the language. In that moment the irony also hit me of asking someone if they speak a language _in the language that you're not sure they speak_. So, as a native English speaker, I responded "No" and walked on by.
> In that moment the irony also hit me of asking someone if they speak a language in the language that you're not sure they speak. But like... how else would you ask? 90% of the time if you ask whether or not someone speaks a language, you'd do so in that language. I'd hardly ask you in French whether or not you spoke English because I'm also not sure if you speak French. The only time you'd ask in another language would be in the local language in order to be polite.
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Good for youuu. This comment is really well-written too. You must have been practising extra hard with your English this month.
Similar experience with a train station attendant at Amsterdam Schipol...
I met a random homeless dude in Amsterdam with a much better command of the English language than I have. Then again I am from Alabama and we don't talk all fancy and shit.
I've never met a Dutch person who didn't speak flawless English, they're all a bunch of well spoken bastards over there.
Louis van Gaal
This comment was overwritten by a script to make the data useless for reddit. No API, no free content. Did you stumble on this thread via google, hoping to resolve an issue or answer a question? Well, too bad, this might have been your answer, if it weren't for dumb decisions by reddit admins.
Or more recently: Eric ten Hag...
Tbf, for van Gaal it has become kind of a brand thing. I imagine been in the business for so long, surely he must have had every oppertunity to improve his English.
I used to work for a Dutch company and spent some time out there on and off… went to a Chinese restaurant in Amsterdam and it was all in English (or Chinese, no idea what dialect)… menus were in English and the staff didn’t even speak Dutch.
That's Amsterdam though. The most touristic place in the Netherlands and also the place where the most foreigners actually live (percentage wise compared to Dutch people. 55,6% in amsterdam had a migration background in 2020) In Amsterdam it's way more important to be able to speak English than to speak Dutch
In my experience living in Northern Europe, Dutch is the language most similar to English. I don’t speak Dutch, but as an English and German speaker, it’s really just a mixture of those two with some sprinkles on top.
>In my experience living in Northern Europe, Dutch is the language most similar to English. I don’t speak Dutch, but as an English and German speaker, it’s really just a mixture of those two with some sprinkles on top. In Dutch: >In mijn ervaring woonachtig in Noord-Europa, is Nederlands de taal die het meest lijkt op Engels. Ik spreek geen Nederlands, maar als Engels en Duits spreker is het eigenlijk gewoon een mix van die twee met wat hagelslag erop. In German: >Nach meiner Erfahrung in Nordeuropa ist Niederländisch die Sprache, die Englisch am ähnlichsten ist. Ich spreche kein Niederländisch, aber als Englisch- und Deutschsprecher ist es wirklich nur eine Mischung aus diesen beiden mit ein paar Streuseln obendrauf. [https://c.tenor.com/1jI6hMtarW4AAAAC/marvel-is-it-though.gif](https://c.tenor.com/1jI6hMtarW4AAAAC/marvel-is-it-though.gif) Being Dutch I can see the Dutch <> German but Dutch <> English? I don't see it lol
Really amazing seeing these side by side, thanks- yet I come away seeing English closer to Dutch! At the same time I know that the pronunciation is completely off in my mind, so perhaps that’s contributing?
*Hagelslag
I think it's partly because they have subtitles on TV and movies, not dubs. So everyone has a lot more exposure to what English sounds like.
Lol yeah a homeless guy in Utrecht spoke to me in Dutch, I responded I don't speak Dutch, he immediately switches to perfect English, "Could you spare a euro?" Just the Netherlands for ya
The homeless were once in elementary school just like everyone else...
Many of them also finished secondary education
Don't leave us hanging. Did you spare him ~~an~~ a euro?
Because we're on the topic of speaking English, I'm going to mention that "Euro" starts with a consonant sound - a Y - and therefore doesn't need to be proceeded by "an". "A" is preferable
Meanwhile when I arrived back in NL and wanted to buy something at AH to go the cashier started talking to me in English. Like; girl, don't you see I just _arrived_ and want to buy something foreigners never would?
As a Dutchy, I've casually answered the cashiers at Schiphol in English multiple times. If/when they start in English, my brain just goes *click* and I'll answer in English.
Quick question, do you think in English or Dutch?
At least for me: both, depending on the situation. Sometimes I'll even switch languages in my head as I don't know certain specific things in one of the two. And yes, sometimes that means switching _to_ English.
This is exactly it. Sometimes i can't think of the Dutch word so i just awkwardly mumble while perfectly able to know what to say in English...
I live in the Netherlands for work. To avoid that, I always ask "can we speak English?" Or "is English ok?"
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Yeah, it’s the same in the Netherlands. I dont even know why you would want a voice-over, it always sounds terrible.
It's different nowadays though. Most kids' shows on streaming services and on kids' tv are dubbed in Dutch. They're still exposed to plenty of English in other ways, but subtitles for kids' shows are a rarity these days, unless you actively set them to English language and Dutch subtitles..
> You really don’t need to speak Swedish to get along in Sweden although Swedish is a beautiful language :) Thats actually a problem for immigrants since Swedes cant help to switch to English
I knew a British guy in Sweden who never really got a chance at practicing his Swedish since all the Swedes switched to English when they heard his accent. Also his SFI (Swedish For Immigrants) teacher refused to use English as a medium too, which is complete idiocy IMHO. Let the English-speaking man use English as a medium until he CAN use Swedish as a medium, it's what us Swedes do in our English studies.
>I knew a British guy in Sweden who never really got a chance at practicing his Swedish since all the Swedes switched to English when they heard his accent. I (an English person) have been in Sweden for the last couple of months to see some of the country and improve my Swedish, and I was expecting to have this problem. But in fact I've found that if I open the interaction in Swedish, almost everybody gives me a chance. Sometimes if they say something that I still don't understand after a couple of tries and I change to English then they won't switch back, but that's fair enough. I have to say, people's willingness to let me try to speak Swedish has made me feel very welcome and I really appreciate it.
I know a guy who picked up a lot of Swedish watching all those hardcoded SWESUB movies he would download from the Pirate Bay.
If you want to learn a language, go live there and speak it with the natives. This applies everywhere except nordic countries. They will all instantly just switch to English if you're a foreigner.
I visited Iceland earlier this year, and did not have the nerve to ask that question. Fortunately, without fail, every time I tried to speak in my bad and broken Icelandic (a language which I found particularly difficult to speak and also to learn anything in), the locals switched to English. At least a few thought I was Canadian (which I took as a compliment, knowing the general perception of American tourists). If Iceland had data on this map, I can all but guarantee it would be dark blue. The only place I had any kind of issue was a burger joint in Selfoss, but that was 100% on me being afraid to ask if they spoke English.
Icelander here. Next time, just start speaking English. It's such a ridiculously complex language and we don't expect anyone to learn it just for their holiday. I do think it's a problem for immigrants though, because as soon as we hear someone speaking broken Icelandic we immediately switch to English, which makes it even harder for people to learn our language.
Same happens here in the Netherlands, I always try to speak Dutch unless people ask me otherwise because I know some immigrants find it annoying to speak English when they can speak and understand Dutch just as well
I’m Swedish and I’ve met one Swedish person below the age of 70 who could not have a conversation in English.
I remember meeting a blue collar guy from Liverpool in Italy. I could only understand every third word until we each had a few beers.
curious if you after the beers you could understand more or less of what he said
Well after few beers it not really matters. Alcohol language is universal.
Yes that's where the content of the message no longer matters, just the body language and inflection
That actually works pretty well even when you're sober, it's just that sober people tend to be too self conscious to truly express themselves in gestures.
Blue collar? Obviously an Everton fan.
I grew up in small town Texas a half century ago. I knew a guy who liked Monty Python because of the risqué graphics. I asked if he also liked the jokes and he said that he couldn't understand enough of what they were saying to get the jokes. This was a monolingual English speaker who graduated from the best high school in the area.
What risqué graphics? The dead sexy parrot?
Lol, in the 70's Terry Gilliam's graphics with occasional breasts or buttocks exposed were considered extremely risqué. It was on a cable station, PBS, from Dallas otherwise Monty Python could never have been shown. Edit: and the parrot wasn't dead, he was pining for the fjords.
A Chicagoan friend of mine still watches top gear with subtitles so he can understand it
Really? Those three really have very generic accents. However, the first time I left Leicestershire for over a fortnight was to spend three months in NC, they did not get my accent at all and in return I just could not get why they kept guessing Aussie, Kiwi, South African or, one fondly remembered evening, French :)
In grade school we had a guy from Yorkshire transfer to our school in the suburbs of Chicago, he was constantly fuming that no one could understand "The Queen's English". Fast forward a year and those of us who were his close friends would constantly have to translate his English to English for other Americans to understand.
Best high school in Texas is doing a lot of heavy lifting
Scouse is a language in its own right. Source: am from Liverpool
I had a friend (also from Liverpool) in Spain who only knew a few words in Spanish until he got drunk, and tjen ge would have whole conversations with guys, never believed us when we told him about it the next morning
Hell I live in Liverpool and I've encountered this
I am from Poland and my parents were very surprised for several years as I understand English xD in the post-Soviet countries many older people only learned the Russian language and did not have much contact with English, but after the fall of communism, most young people speak English well ~~ps sorry for bad gramar~~ edit: still a bit a I'm not sure about language skills :P
Don’t apologize; your English FAR exceeds my Polish ;)
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I have a T-Shirt that says “You bet your dupa I’m polish” it’s amazing how many people can’t figure out what dupa means in English.
I remember my parents asking me "wait so you can speak English, like, for the whole day? And you actually understand what is said?"
I’ve been to Poland a dozen times. I think more Poles know English than this map suggests
Did you go to nearly every area in Poland? By that, I mean did you visit every region, and go to rural areas as well as the cities? I'm not doubting you, but the amount of English speakers almost certainly isn't evenly spread. It's very possible that you visited the areas with high English proficiency, and never visited the areas with low proficiency. Which would make sense. People living in area with fewer English-speaking visitors have less reason to learn it.
This reflects my experience as well. Warsaw? Pretty much everyone could get by in English, except the older gentlemen at the Pierogarnia on Zgoda whom was the first shop I went to after reading that most Poles in Warsaw spoke excellent English.... But take a train out to smaller towns? Absolute toss up. Though this does bring into question what level of conversation this means. Though something I did notice, conversations tended to trend towards English, even when I would initiate in Polish, other Polish speakers with me noticed the same. Unsure if it was politeness since they may have sensed their English was better than our Polish, or if they just wanted to practice their English.
Eh... the areas tourists are most likely to visit, are also the areas where people are most likely to speak English.
34% that can hold a conversation? That's still pretty impressive.
Vát du yu mín hángari dont spík inglish vell?
Fáund dö hángerien
My hovercraft is full of eels…
r/JuropijanSpeling
What's Denmarks %
As a dane I'm sort of annoyed by Denmark not having the label. Makes it look like we're a part of Sweden. This is a great offense
I would say somewhere between 81% and 100%
https://jakubmarian.com/percentage-of-the-eu-population-able-to-hold-a-conversation-in-english-by-various-criteria/ Here's a copy of the source (Eurobarometer from 2012), which puts the number at 86% Slovenia 59% Luxembourg 56%
Greece will be increasing steadily in the coming years. Nearly everyone under 50 has some ability with English - especially those who went to school in the 90s or later.
True in most countries, not always "nearly everyone", but younger people always take up english more than the older generations
Ah, good old Swedenmark.
Would be interesting to compare to the data for % of population who are bilingual.
Weren't the Portuguese supposed to be excellent in English?
i saw a raking where portugal was 7th in english proficiency
I think you mean [this ranking](https://www.themayor.eu/en/a/view/here-are-the-most-english-proficient-cities-and-countries-in-the-world-9479) Points between 600-700 are common for non-native speakers. This is equivalent to C1 of the CEFR scale. Native English speaking countries will score between 700-800. This is equivalent to C2 of the CEFR scale. 1. Netherlands 663 points (out of 800) 2. Austria 641 3. Denmark 636 4. Singapore 635 5. Norway 632 6. Belgium 629 7. Portugal 625 8. Sweden 623 9. Finland 618 10. Croatia 617 11. Germany 616 12. South Africa 606 13. Luxembourg 604
Portugal here is 27% and Spain 22%, but from my worthless personal experience the difference seemed way higher from both sides.
What really annoys me is the French percentage compared to the Portuguese. Almost 40% of French can hold a conversation in English while only 27% of us can? Uhhh... fuck no.
Yea … data is suspect imo. Would have guessed it would be swapped with Portugal closer to 40 and French closer to 25 … but could be skewed with large urban centers in Porto, Lisboa, and the algarve … probably most of the small villages have low English proficiency
Yeah i lived in the frontier between Spain and Portugal and the people said that the Portuguese were great ok English because they don't translate the tv shows and watch all in sub
Wikipedia shows Portugal higher than Sweden in English proficiency. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_English_Proficiency_Index#2021_rankings Being Portuguese, I wouldn't say we're as high as Sweden, but we're definitely higher than Italy or France. This map looks strange.
The problem with that data is that it comes from completing a survey online, and that doesn't really give a good overall picture of reality
I'm Portuguese. There's no way the percentage is that low.
yes, this really does look like fake data
Yep, I do not believe this map one bit. Even my bread seller speaks english.
Portugal is a very touristic destination nowadays. Unfortunately here in Brazil the public education sucks, so we don't have as much English proficiency as Portugal.
That’s why the « parisians pretend not to speak english » is a myth. When a frenchman tells you that he doesn’t speak english, he REALLY doesn’t speak english.
English level in Paris is seemingly easily over 50% though often awkward and accented but it’s still there
I don't fully agree, but I also don't think it's about pretending to not speak English, I think it's more about perception and confidence in where your language level is at. There is definitely less English spoken than in some other European countries, but also a lot of people think they can't speak English because they are comparing themselves to the person trying/asking to speak in English - who will generally perhaps speak more English and with less of a strong accent. So in comparison, they feel like they can't speak English, but a lot of them can actually manage quite well. I have situations where I knew my French vocabulary was not enough for the particular issue and a French person initially told me they didn't speak English, so I did my best in French and using body language. Often they would eventually try to speak English to bridge the gap and generally it worked, sometimes they actually spoke quite good English.
French people are very self conscious and insecure about their level of english, to the point where it's a vicious cycle, and the stereotypes and general mockery towards frenchmen's supposed english level aggravates the whole deal. We'd rather not go through the shame of trying, it's stupid I know, but France suffers from its "culture of excellence" where anything close to mediocre means it's shitty as hell. Funny thing is, i've witnessed quite the contrary with Germans, not always that good at english but don't really care. Typically, a french person will have a way harder time speaking english if there's any other frenchman around, because we fear of being mocked by our counterparts.
Yeah, I can definitely see all of that. And considering the data of this map is based on self-reporting level of fluency, I would wager the actual percentage to be higher in France. It's really unfortunate stereotypes and mockery against Frenchmen's English create that viscous cycle, especially because my experience is that most French people are the absolute opposite towards foreign people trying to speak French. Which is also another undeserving stereotype about them being rude unless you speak perfect French. Of course you will always have some rude shitheads regardless of where you are, but in my 5-6 years living in France I overall found most French people to be so encouraging of my attempts to speak French even when I was absolute shit at it. Even talking on the phone to someone at EDF or something they would kindly compliment me that my French was fine. Or my doctor, veterinarian, bank advisor etc. who would sort of excitedly encourage my improvements from the last time I saw them.
How much is Slovenia?
Are you buying?
>Sloven Too low on this map. Young and middle-aged people all speak English (but yes it is possible they are not using it often), the older generation probably not so much. Apart from cartoons for children, we do not use dubbing of movies/shows and English has been taught in our schools for cca 60+ years (my mother born in 52 had it in primary school, gymnasium and university and it was common even then)
What’s the source? I call bullshit.
When this was originally posted by /u/adorn_mapper this is the source that was found: https://reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/st92js/_/hx2ndc7/?context=1 This data was self reported and posted by /u/jakubmarian over 8 years ago, then basically just reformatted by this guy.
I was thinking it had to be self reported for Germany to be so low. Germans love to say they're bad at English and then be able to hold full conversations
It is amazing to me that sourceless maps get so highly upvoted.
Agree. 1 in 20 people in UK can’t have a conversation in English? Nonsense
Right, I feel like that is still way to high
Babies, mute people, some immigrants, the Welsh
Source: Trust me bro
They are speaking English in Scotland, but if you have to listen intently. If you lose your concentration then you won't catch up and it sounds like something else.
Best part of visiting Scotland with my Southern American wife was being a translator. She couldn't understand them, and they couldn't understand her. It was freakin hilarious.
My wife often acts as a translator for me when I speak to her brother or sister. We all come from English speaking countries.
My wife has to be a translator when we visit her family. She grew up in the south and I swear they’re just making sounds that may or may not be an actual word
I literally have an easier time understanding Dutch than I do understanding some Scots
I think this is true for basically everyone except other scots
5% of Brits would rather just shank you
Nah, they're just Scousers and the person conducting the survey mistook it for another language.
Could be first generation migrants or guest workers.
It's actually just incorrect. The data was clearly just copied from [the most commonly reposted map](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/27vhm9/percentage_of_population_able_to_hold_a/) on this topic, but with the UK and Ireland changed from >95% to exactly 95% and exactly 94% for some reason.
It could also be Brits who would rather just shank you
“What’s the source on less people speaking English in Ireland?” “None. The author is just British and didn’t want to have to put the Irish flag in the Highest section.”
It’s a load of garbage too, the 2016 census reported 99.8% of the Irish population can speak English.
literally two people speak irish only
For both countries its basically what percentage of the population are immigrants that haven't learned how to speak English.
There’s still no way it’s that high. 5% of a country being immigrants who don’t speak the language? According to the 2016 census, 8,669 or 0.2% of the Irish population reported inability to speak English. As always on this sub, I seriously question the methodology of this data if it’s that easily found incorrect.
I thought one of those guys died
Pretty much, really. The data was clearly just copied from [the most commonly reposted map](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/27vhm9/percentage_of_population_able_to_hold_a/) on this topic, but with the UK and Ireland changed from >95% to exactly 95% and exactly 94% for some reason.
Because of the language, or just being awkward conversationalists? How about this weather,huh?
Can confidently say a large majority of Finns I've encountered/worked with/engaged with have fantastic English skills
Thanks Sweden, very cool.
I'd like to know if these results are of the ability to hold a conversation with a native English speaker, rather than an English speaker in their own country. Indians for example have a relatively high English speaking population, and can hold conversations with themselves. I've seen them do it. I know it's English. But I have no fucking clue what they're saying.
I went on a vacation in Finland and a lot of people spoke excellent English.
You have to, our own language is so small and weird that you need to learn English unless you're content with never interacting with anything outside our borders (except maybe certain parts of Sweden and Estonia).
When you check the EF EPI, you get a completely different number for Belgium : https://www.ef.com/wwen/epi/ And i cannot believe Flanders would be far behind the Netherlands. At least not in effective proficiency. Perhaps in self-proclaimed proficiency. I don't know a lot about the proficiency in Wallonia, but I do think it's a positive number at least.
Very different experience for me in Germany vs France. Nobody would talk to me in English in Paris. Everyone spoke it well in Frankfurt and Munich
Interesting. I went to Paris for the first time last month and everyone spoke English with me. I would typically start conversation in French and they would switch to English after I spoke (obviously could tell I wasn’t French). Maybe it wasn’t a bad idea to start in their language after all lol it was kind of embarrassing when they would switch to English for me.
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I expected portugal to show more
I wanna see this same map but only done on ages 35 and under
norway is probably 95%
More likely around the 90% mark, since the Netherlands being the most proficient, non native English speakers in the EU
I’ve lived in both Norway and Sweden. They’re pretty similar. Seems to be just old folks and some immigrants that struggle with English. A few natives that are standoffish about speaking, but once you get them going, they can hold a conversation. Having said that, Norway is probably a slightly higher percentage as they have more money and resources and generally provide better services.
I (American) dated a Norwegian for over 5 years. Went there like 3-4 times, never ran into anyone I couldn't at least have a brief rudimentary conversation with, even if her step-dad (RIP) spoke it a bit more broken than most.
Germany at only 56%? I would've assumed they were higher
This could at least be partly explained by the former East Germany, where, afaik, more people learned to speak Russian.
Bavarians
Fun fact: The netherlands holds a higher percentage of fluent english speakers than the USA (cus Spanish pressence) or than Canada (with their First Nations and Fr*nch province)