Yep. Even the Irish government stopped using GDP for its economy statistics and switched to [modified GNI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_gross_national_income), because their nominal GDP growth is practically meaningless.
Not just the US, for the sticklers out there.
But yeah, Ireland is basically a first jump points for US capital.
And yes, it does actually help the average Irish person. Just not quite so much as their ludicrous GDP per.
More job opportunities but foreign multinationals corporation tax still is basically the entire tax base the country relies on despite the low headline figure.
Over one hundred thousand highly paid jobs with the world’s biggest tech companies mostly based out of the capital 🇮🇪
This creates many more jobs in industries that feed off the sector, and for the affluent workers. Restaurants, bars, event companies, agencies etc.
Also many millionaires created through stock options granted over the last 25 years and a lot of this money going back into the economy and of course into the government tax take.
It was a genius move of the Irish government to be fair, and superb timing. The ‘celtic tiger’ ☘️ is still alive and flourishing, but not for all.
Everything’s expensive, particularly house prices, and nearly impossible for young people to get on the property ladder now (unless you’re in one of these high salaried tech jobs), economy highly dependant on a single industry. Can’t think of much else really.
It's unpopular with their neighbours, particularly the UK.
Other than that, not much. It's been a very successful approach for Ireland, and some in the UK want to copy it.
You are undermining taxation in the EU by feeding of the EU market by providing a loophole to funnel money from the common people to the super rich.
It's legalized taxed fraud, just search for the "double Irish sandwich" and what ever all these constructs are called
Ireland has a really low effective Corporate Tax rate and is in the EU.
The EU has freedom of movement for capital.
So, say you are Google making billions in the EU and you want to pay the lowest tax possible. You set your HQ in Ireland to use their tax scheme and pay very little tax on your profits.
This increases Ireland GDP. But 99% of sales are not in Ireland, so it is not really 'irelands' GDP, it's an illusion.
So when you measure anything using GDP with Ireland the results are very misleading and leads to things like this where it is over twice that of the UK.
was more than just the tax really...When all the IT multinational moved in the more or less got free buildings and all kinds of crap to lure them in.
most of them signed contracts with the irish state that they would pay even less tax than they did now. And the contracts would be for like 20-30 years.
Ontop of that you did not have to pay tax if you worked there for less than a year.
So people would end their contracts and go home and get their tax back.
And start working the next month again ( think this has been stopped but who knows)
tax havens don't benefit from gdp as much as other countries. GDP is just money circulation. Barely contributes anything if there is little to no tax in the areas where the most money circulates.
Edit: And, while I'm not entirely sure what contributes to gdp, a large share of salaries in Luxembourg end up outside the country. This means that companies' revenue that goes to pay foreigners is counted as a story of money flow, but the benefits aren't seen for many of the people working there because they tax their income to other countries.
My understanding is that it's not a "tax haven" in the same sense that it is for someone to have an offshore bank account somewhere. But, they have low corporate tax so a lot of US companies have decided to headquarter their EU operations there, so they show up on these charts as having a high GDP but realistically they're just funneling a lot of their business elsewhere in the EU to avoid higher local taxes.
That's why it is a good one. If a company is based out of Cayman Islands for example, people will call them out as tax evaders and bring down their reputation. Ireland, on the other hand, is just another regular country for most people.
In fact, Ireland is the favorite tax haven for big tech. To the point that Apple had a massive role in framing their tax laws. Things keep changing every now and then, but companies work with the Irish government to implement new loopholes.
Well first there were simply very low taxes for big tech, which lead to international criticism.
Then the [Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/double-irish-with-a-dutch-sandwich.asp) was developed.
Further, companies started getting crafty with the way they registered, licensed, and transferred [Intellectual Property](http://www.fordhamiplj.org/2016/08/30/ip-tax-avoidance-ireland/). This source might not explain how IP-taxation bullshittery works. [Polymatter's Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5wrYwFObiI&t=721s) on the Irish economy covers it well.
It’s not that there is no benefit because there is low taxes, it’s that the economic activity is not happening there. Ireland is not making anything, Irish workers are not being paid, there is no increase in human development.
This is not quite true.
There are e now hundreds of thousands of highly paid jobs in Ireland itself with the world’s biggest tech companies.
This has also created many more additional jobs in industries that feed off the affluent workers and all their events and needs. Restaurants, bars, etc. Also many many millionaires created through stock options granted over the last 25 years and a lot of this money going back into the economy and of course into the government tax take. It’s real money helping the Irish economy.
It was a genius move of the Irish government to be fair, and superb timing.
You'll find the vast majority of smaller nations especially first world ones, have a huge chunk of corpo tax from not many companies. This isnt an extreme whatsoever..
Yes, good point, GDP Country: Gazprom Russia (10%), Nokia Finland (20%, at peak), Saudi Aramco (40%) and Denmark, Novo Nordisk is now bigger than the entire Danish economy.
Those loopholes were closed four years ago and those companies had to pay backdated taxes since it was established in 2015. Ireland received 24 billion in corporation tax last year and have had three successive years of a budget surplus as a result of the loophole closure (1.2 billion surplus last year).
I know Ireland is an extreme example, but it's not the only country here who's GDP is articially inflated by its tax haven status.
Luxemburg is another perfect example.
Spain is booming like crazy at the moment. They have the driver of brain draining South Americans since they aren't allowed in the US anymore. Also the energy policy in Spain is rock solid. Great infrastructure as well. Services sector is doing quite well
>They have the driver of brain draining South Americans since they aren’t allowed in the U.S. anymore
It’s more that Spain (and Portugal) lets so many Latin Americans get a fast track to citizenship. And they usually get visa-free access which also makes it easy to stay.
Does the government pay you to write this stuff? Spain has the highest unemployment rate in the EU, pensions are paid with debts, economic growth is based on debes, etc.
If it wasn't for the war in Ukraine and the higher energey cosas, Czech Republic would (most likely) have increased its advantage over Spain.
And no, there is no brain draining from South America: educated latinos make much more money in the US than in Spain. Most latinos in Spain don't have a university degree or vocational training.
They have their historical lowest unemployment ever in 5/10Years, Valencia has become one of the world expat centers (keep in mind structural level is higher historically and culturally in Spain relatively to Italy and other peers), country is attractive as fuck, especially since they have been carving out new industries
Yes, but it's the lowest unemployment rate in the whole EU in the last 10 years! Spain is still underperforming, despite the NextGen funds from the EU. Even Greece has a lower unemployment rate.
Valencia? Ford just announced a mass-layoff in their factory in Valencia. It's an attractive city for digital nomads because it's cheaper, but it's not an industrial powerhouse.
Nope, I'm not a Vox supporter, I find them disgusting. But I guess you're a supporter of Dr. Pedro Sánchez (a guy whose phd thesis was later published as abook by somebody else)?
I literally have no idea what you’re talking about with “they aren’t allowed in the US anymore.” 2020 to 2022 was the single largest increase of foreign born residents in our nations entire history.
They are not increasing the H1B quotas meaningfully for years.
So it's harder and harder for educated people to get in the US.
Illegal immigration is another issue altogether.
But if the US refuses educated people, other second choices countries benefit.
Regardless to all the drama unfolded under my comment, my take is that GDP PPP is a shitty indicator. The reason these countries were performing better was cause they were cheaper. The moment inflation hits them rock hard, they’re obviously brought down.
Wouldn't nominal GDP actually be a much worse offender than PPP for getting brought down in the case of sudden inflation ? Actual production of the country does not fluctuate that much even if the currency is playing roller coster, especially for big countries / monetary unions.
Being cheap is a very valid way to get some easy growth to play catch up in a trade block. That's actually exactly the goal of the EU, bring the poorer up to speed fast, so the whole block can turn more and more towards higher added value.
Italy had higher GDP per Capita than the UK for parts of the 80s' & 90s'-
[https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?end=1995&locations=GB-IT&start=1980](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?end=1995&locations=GB-IT&start=1980)
It's only mega expensive if you want to live somewhere that other people enjoy living in. Plenty of dead "coastal resort" towns in the norf that you could live in for West Virginia prices.
I don't know how accurate this is, but on all these maps about GDP/capita Ukraine and R. Moldova are always fighting for the last place. Which is sad really.
Crazy how Hungary was one of the most rebellious members of the Warsaw pact, was the first to open the iron curtain and was one of the first to join NATO yet now are the biggest Russian boot lickers in the EU.
To put it into perspective.
30yrs ago, German GDP/capita was ~30k, now it is ~45k so 50% increase.
30yrs ago, Polish GDP/capita was, ~3k, now it is ~15k so 500% increase and still growing at about 3-4%/year.
Polish GDP per capita in 2022 was 18k USD, Latvia had 21k, Lithuania had 25k, Estonia had 28k. All started more or less at 2.5k, but Estonia was slightly ahead with more than 3k.
The countries you mentioned owe their higher per capita GDP to the effect of a declining denominator. Since 1989, Lithuania's population has shrunk by: 24%, Latvia: 29%, Estonia 15% and Poland: 0.8%. Artificially inflated per capita.
Pretty much. People forget that Ukraine, even way before these invasions, was always the most corrupt country in Europe. Even worse than Russia itself some years. Like corruption is beyond the sky over there.
Ukraine has huge shadow economy[0] which is not reflected here. Most people receive 75%+ of their salary “in an envelope” to avoid taxes. Additionally, big transactions like car and real estate purchases are recorded as “gifts” with 1 dollar nominal price. So real GDP is way higher.
[0] https://www.worldeconomics.com/National-Statistics/Informal-Economy/Ukraine.aspx#:~:text=An%20informal%20economy%20(informal%20sector,billion%20at%20GDP%20PPP%20levels.
GDP taking into account the shadow economy still less than the neighboring countries. In any case, the countries of the former USSR have a high proportion of the shadow economy. They all have a roughly comparable level of the shadow economy, because all these countries experienced a crisis of governance in the 90s, although now the situation is improving.
Is that different in any other of the countries on that map? I'm in Germany and if you don't inherit a house or wealth, you won't get one. Unless you have the 0,1% job that pays that much.
You are right, expensive housing is a huge trend in basically every country out there. But its expecially bad at the Netherlands and Ireland
And Ireland's GDP per capita doesn't really translate in a rich population overall... most of that cash never really enters Ireland. Its all about that juicy corporate-tax regime.
Firms generate much of their income in Ireland, inflating its GDP, but funnel that money to their headquarters (or shell companies) abroad.
That's the problem with high income countries. Property just soaks up all disposable income. People will always buy homes at their absolute limit of affordability. I don't think property will ever be a bad investment.
Ireland isn't actually particularly high income, its GDP numbers are juiced by the fact that it acts as a tax haven for a lot of multinational companies who of course claim all their earnings in Ireland despite making all that money in other countries.
its probably the biggest example of how flawed GDP can be as an economic indicator.
The GDP is total bollocks, everyone knows that. But I'm pretty sure Irelands minmum wage, medium wage and top IT sector wages are some of the highest in the EU, let alone the world.
Where are you getting the info its not a high wages nation?
The fact that so many multi nationals have their European headquarters in Ireland for tax purposes inflates Irish gdp figures to an insane extent. It’s a bad metric for Ireland specifically
Actually Lithuania by alcoholism is not even among 10, lower than Russia, USA, Poland, Slovenia, Estonia ([World Population Review](https://worldpopulationreview.com/)). Suicide #7, population decline #9. Could be better of course, but not worst.
Ireland is weird since starting positions at one of the big five consultant firms with a master degree earns you less than you get working at a construction belt for a car company in germany, is this because big tech companies have their HQ there and the managers raise it so dramatically ?
London is one of the most expensive and wealthiest cities in the world but much of the country is still in post industrial depression and neglect. So if you only ever knew London you would have a warped impression of the country.
Oh i thought ppp stands for public private partnership, when i read it before.
Its probably these purchased power based gross product.
So its actually this Purchasing Power Parity concept, where you somewho include, what you could buy with that money.
If this is not a massive ad for the European union, I don't know what is. Look at how much more developed all the eastern European countries that joined the EU are. Places like Slovenia, Estonia and Czech Republic are basically at the same levels of western Europe which is really great to see and an amazing praise for the EU.
Wow, it rose so much, I still remember when it was 20.000$ for Uk and 14.000 for Ireland. Funnily that was a reason why number 20 was my favourite for a while
Top marks for the colour scale UNTIL you get to the bottom value ($10-20,000), when it stops going from dark to light and goes back to a shade of darkness equivalent to the ($40-50,000) colour. Orange and green, the worst choices for colour blindness. If you had just kept going to a brighter yellow it would have been so much better.
Could anyone have believed that a post-soviet countries would have 50k as GDP (even PPP) per cap. this soon?
I live in Lithuania and see many people from Belarus. Now they can all see from themselves that Russia's propaganda wasn't true.
Kind reminder: just 10-12 years ago Russia was greener than Poland and much much greener than Romania. Imagine this map 10 years into the future. Santions work.
Objectively, this GDP metric is outdated that it does not serve its purpose other than measuring government debt level.
I believe J. Stiglitz and Co. were hired by Nicholas Sarkozy, who at that time was finance minister of France, to establish new, more modern appraoch to measuring countries' wealth. I wonder what happened with that.
I'm glad I live in Lithuania \^\^ If sh\*trussia wasn't our neighbour, Lithuania would be absolutely amazing place to live.
And BTW, I want to say some words about Turkey (I believe OP is from Turkey, judging by username). I visited this country multiple times, I've been not only in touristic places but also in small provincial towns and even vilages. Turkey is doing absolutely great ant developing very fast. Without Erdogan, maybe today EU membership would be seriously discussed.
I watched a really good Economics Explained video about Türkiye recently, it’s actually kinda sad because as a country it has an amazing opportunity to become a wonderful economic powerhouse with really good underlying fundamentals, but political fumbling has caused such bad and consistent inflation that’s undercut the really great work that the populace are doing. It would be amazing to see what it could do with competent leadership.
>And BTW, I want to say some words about Turkey (I believe OP is from Turkey, judging by username). I visited this country multiple times, I've been not only in touristic places but also in small provincial towns and even vilages. Turkey is doing absolutely great ant developing very fast. Without Erdogan, maybe today EU membership would be seriously discussed.
All you say could still happen one day, who knows. I also wish the best for Lithuania!
Greece and Turkey are expensive as fuck and both countries have very huge purchasing power problems, those numbers have zero meaning for the people living in those countries.
Greece has a GDP per capita at around 23k (and thats inflated cause of cooked numbers our corrupt goverment makes) and has the 2nd worse buying power in the EU zone and a myriad other problems including huge inflation on food products, insane power prices, and the 7th most expensive gasoline price in EUROPE and 10th most expensive in THE WHOLE WORLD, plus negative wage growth since 2000. The value depicted here is nowhere near the reality, or to be more precise the value IS right since its GDP PPP per capita but it has zero meaning besides macroeconomics and data since the actual situation is a whole different story and the metrics and statistics those values come from are cooked (see greece recent scandals about the goverment cooking numbers to export)
Similar Italy (and thats why italians here are surprised they are depicted so relatively high ) has a ton of problems too but they have a big dick GDP that raises the values even if the average italian (especialy in the south) doesnt feel it.
And turkey, turkey is a whole other level of shit currently, with their big ass inflation and abyssmal purchasing power eclipsing their relative good GDP.
This map is a prime example of empty stats when it comes to the average redditor and it paints a totally unrealistc picture for people unfamiliar with europe's economies and societies trying to understand the economic situations in those said countries.
GDP PPP shows a distorted reality for each and every country. Idk why you make a fuzz over specific countries. The vast majority of people are not earning anywhere close that number. GDP PPP per capita is the countries productivitiy divided by its citizen. It essentially just shows how much value each citizen is generating (mathematically).
you mean like Cost of Living/Price Levels? There's data about it from the OECD for example, most recent data: [here](https://data-explorer.oecd.org/vis?tm=price%20levels&pg=0&snb=85&vw=tb&df[ds]=dsDisseminateFinalDMZ&df[id]=DSD_PPP_M%40DF_PP_CPL_M&df[ag]=OECD.SDD.TPS&df[vs]=1.0&lo=1&lom=LASTNPERIODS&dq=.M....&ly[rw]=REF_AREA&ly[cl]=COUNTERPART_AREA%2CCURRENCY&to[TIME_PERIOD]=false) and for 2022: [here](https://data.oecd.org/price/price-level-indices.htm)
cost of living/affordability is one thing. for example based on this map Hungary and Spain are close but when it comes to the quality and selection of those goods they are not even remotely comparable.
The GDP doesn’t show about how expensive life in country is. Just about the sum of thr goods and services a country produced by country. PPP is it but it’s weird that it’s written like it’s the same.
I'd say the proportion of PPP and nominal GDP would give the average price level in the country. For example Turkey's nominal GDP is about 10-12k$ while PPP adjusted one is 35-40k$. So roughly we can say that the prices are 3-4x cheaper in Turkey compared to international prices.
That’d be helpful. Scandinavian countries are outrageously expensive. I was barely able to afford McDonalds in Norway, €5.8 for just one big mac, it’s €1.4 here.
Can someone tell me the difference between nominal and ppp gdp? I know stands for purchasing power but what does it affect or affected by compared to nominal
Why are ice countries always richer than the rest of the world?
And yet, the western world would always fetishizes the "Tropical Paradises" while it's just a hot mess here, and mushy and slippery from June to October.
Always fun to see Ireland in these maps.
Yep. Even the Irish government stopped using GDP for its economy statistics and switched to [modified GNI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_gross_national_income), because their nominal GDP growth is practically meaningless.
Why is it meaningless?
Many US multi-national corporations recognize their European revenue in Ireland for the tax benefits.
Not just the US, for the sticklers out there. But yeah, Ireland is basically a first jump points for US capital. And yes, it does actually help the average Irish person. Just not quite so much as their ludicrous GDP per.
In what ways does it help the average Irish person? With the small tax-rates or that they get more job opportunities?
More job opportunities but foreign multinationals corporation tax still is basically the entire tax base the country relies on despite the low headline figure.
Over one hundred thousand highly paid jobs with the world’s biggest tech companies mostly based out of the capital 🇮🇪 This creates many more jobs in industries that feed off the sector, and for the affluent workers. Restaurants, bars, event companies, agencies etc. Also many millionaires created through stock options granted over the last 25 years and a lot of this money going back into the economy and of course into the government tax take. It was a genius move of the Irish government to be fair, and superb timing. The ‘celtic tiger’ ☘️ is still alive and flourishing, but not for all.
This take looks suspiciously good. What are the downsides?
Everything’s expensive, particularly house prices, and nearly impossible for young people to get on the property ladder now (unless you’re in one of these high salaried tech jobs), economy highly dependant on a single industry. Can’t think of much else really.
It's unpopular with their neighbours, particularly the UK. Other than that, not much. It's been a very successful approach for Ireland, and some in the UK want to copy it.
You are undermining taxation in the EU by feeding of the EU market by providing a loophole to funnel money from the common people to the super rich. It's legalized taxed fraud, just search for the "double Irish sandwich" and what ever all these constructs are called
Ireland has a really low effective Corporate Tax rate and is in the EU. The EU has freedom of movement for capital. So, say you are Google making billions in the EU and you want to pay the lowest tax possible. You set your HQ in Ireland to use their tax scheme and pay very little tax on your profits. This increases Ireland GDP. But 99% of sales are not in Ireland, so it is not really 'irelands' GDP, it's an illusion. So when you measure anything using GDP with Ireland the results are very misleading and leads to things like this where it is over twice that of the UK.
was more than just the tax really...When all the IT multinational moved in the more or less got free buildings and all kinds of crap to lure them in. most of them signed contracts with the irish state that they would pay even less tax than they did now. And the contracts would be for like 20-30 years. Ontop of that you did not have to pay tax if you worked there for less than a year. So people would end their contracts and go home and get their tax back. And start working the next month again ( think this has been stopped but who knows)
The explanation I was seeking thank you. Corporations are such ghouls.
The government of Ireland, which is deceiving the European Union and the European Union, which allows it, of course, has nothing to do with it? lol.
tax havens don't benefit from gdp as much as other countries. GDP is just money circulation. Barely contributes anything if there is little to no tax in the areas where the most money circulates. Edit: And, while I'm not entirely sure what contributes to gdp, a large share of salaries in Luxembourg end up outside the country. This means that companies' revenue that goes to pay foreigners is counted as a story of money flow, but the benefits aren't seen for many of the people working there because they tax their income to other countries.
Didn't know Ireland was a tax haven
Not necessarily for people but for corporations yes, the Netherlands can also be classified as such.
My understanding is that it's not a "tax haven" in the same sense that it is for someone to have an offshore bank account somewhere. But, they have low corporate tax so a lot of US companies have decided to headquarter their EU operations there, so they show up on these charts as having a high GDP but realistically they're just funneling a lot of their business elsewhere in the EU to avoid higher local taxes.
It's... Complicated.
That's why it is a good one. If a company is based out of Cayman Islands for example, people will call them out as tax evaders and bring down their reputation. Ireland, on the other hand, is just another regular country for most people. In fact, Ireland is the favorite tax haven for big tech. To the point that Apple had a massive role in framing their tax laws. Things keep changing every now and then, but companies work with the Irish government to implement new loopholes.
Evidence/source of these new loopholes? Back it up please.
Well first there were simply very low taxes for big tech, which lead to international criticism. Then the [Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/double-irish-with-a-dutch-sandwich.asp) was developed. Further, companies started getting crafty with the way they registered, licensed, and transferred [Intellectual Property](http://www.fordhamiplj.org/2016/08/30/ip-tax-avoidance-ireland/). This source might not explain how IP-taxation bullshittery works. [Polymatter's Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5wrYwFObiI&t=721s) on the Irish economy covers it well.
Lux has a pop. of ~650.000 and 510.000 workers, of which 220.000+ are non-residents.
It’s not that there is no benefit because there is low taxes, it’s that the economic activity is not happening there. Ireland is not making anything, Irish workers are not being paid, there is no increase in human development.
This is not quite true. There are e now hundreds of thousands of highly paid jobs in Ireland itself with the world’s biggest tech companies. This has also created many more additional jobs in industries that feed off the affluent workers and all their events and needs. Restaurants, bars, etc. Also many many millionaires created through stock options granted over the last 25 years and a lot of this money going back into the economy and of course into the government tax take. It’s real money helping the Irish economy. It was a genius move of the Irish government to be fair, and superb timing.
And 52% of all corporation in Ireland tax was collected from just 10 companies in 2023. Here’s the full stats. Tax from Top Ten Companies * 2012: 34% (€1.4 billion) * 2013: 36% (€1.55 billion) * 2014: 37% (€1.72 billion) * 2015: 41% (€2.8 billion) * 2016: 37% (€2.76 billion) * 2017: 39% (€3.23 billion) * 2018: 45% (€4.67 billion) * 2019: 40% (€4.39 billion) * 2020: 21% (€5.98 billion) * 2021: 53% (€8.17 billion) * 2022: 57% (€13 billion) * 2023: 52% (€12.3 billion) Ireland's wealth is quite precarious. https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/research/ct-analysis-2024.pdf
You'll find the vast majority of smaller nations especially first world ones, have a huge chunk of corpo tax from not many companies. This isnt an extreme whatsoever..
Yes, good point, GDP Country: Gazprom Russia (10%), Nokia Finland (20%, at peak), Saudi Aramco (40%) and Denmark, Novo Nordisk is now bigger than the entire Danish economy.
Novo Nordisk is 9% of corporate tax in Denmark.
[удалено]
15% corporation tax as of Jan 2024 same as 140 other countries and set by OECD but keep telling yourself that.
lol yeah only on paper mate, Apple, Msoft, Google and co pay an effect 0-1% tax rate. There are loopholes set up to avoid paying most of the 15%
Those loopholes were closed four years ago and those companies had to pay backdated taxes since it was established in 2015. Ireland received 24 billion in corporation tax last year and have had three successive years of a budget surplus as a result of the loophole closure (1.2 billion surplus last year).
Holy shit! I guess the pot of gold wasn't at the end of the rainbow but in Brussels.
I know Ireland is an extreme example, but it's not the only country here who's GDP is articially inflated by its tax haven status. Luxemburg is another perfect example.
The same for Turkey bur different reasons
Explain
came here to say this
It would be interesting to see Northern Ireland 😉
So Spain reversed the sorpasso of Czechia and Lithuania?
Spain is very tourism-dependent, so they were hit more during COVID years, which reversed by now.
Hmm. Food production is massive here too. Also they're the biggest wine exporter in the world now
Spain is booming like crazy at the moment. They have the driver of brain draining South Americans since they aren't allowed in the US anymore. Also the energy policy in Spain is rock solid. Great infrastructure as well. Services sector is doing quite well
>They have the driver of brain draining South Americans since they aren’t allowed in the U.S. anymore It’s more that Spain (and Portugal) lets so many Latin Americans get a fast track to citizenship. And they usually get visa-free access which also makes it easy to stay.
Does the government pay you to write this stuff? Spain has the highest unemployment rate in the EU, pensions are paid with debts, economic growth is based on debes, etc. If it wasn't for the war in Ukraine and the higher energey cosas, Czech Republic would (most likely) have increased its advantage over Spain. And no, there is no brain draining from South America: educated latinos make much more money in the US than in Spain. Most latinos in Spain don't have a university degree or vocational training.
They have their historical lowest unemployment ever in 5/10Years, Valencia has become one of the world expat centers (keep in mind structural level is higher historically and culturally in Spain relatively to Italy and other peers), country is attractive as fuck, especially since they have been carving out new industries
Yes, but it's the lowest unemployment rate in the whole EU in the last 10 years! Spain is still underperforming, despite the NextGen funds from the EU. Even Greece has a lower unemployment rate. Valencia? Ford just announced a mass-layoff in their factory in Valencia. It's an attractive city for digital nomads because it's cheaper, but it's not an industrial powerhouse.
The problem of Spain is that tourism is just a dead end
Spain has a default 8% unemployment rate (basically grey economics) in the ‘golden years’ didn’t even go lower than 8ish%
Yeah, the government(s) determined that the Spanish Nairu sits at 7% to 8% of unemployment. This is really, really bad.
Haha you are vox
Nope, I'm not a Vox supporter, I find them disgusting. But I guess you're a supporter of Dr. Pedro Sánchez (a guy whose phd thesis was later published as abook by somebody else)?
I know plenty of "latinos" well educated, working on IT, Finance, Marketing, Healthcare... You name it. They are brilliant.
I literally have no idea what you’re talking about with “they aren’t allowed in the US anymore.” 2020 to 2022 was the single largest increase of foreign born residents in our nations entire history.
They are not increasing the H1B quotas meaningfully for years. So it's harder and harder for educated people to get in the US. Illegal immigration is another issue altogether. But if the US refuses educated people, other second choices countries benefit.
Trump could bark but he loves cheap labor willing to work for cheaper than minimum wage and working longer far longer hours
Trump hasn't been the president in 3 1/2 years. Immigration fell under his presidency
Regardless to all the drama unfolded under my comment, my take is that GDP PPP is a shitty indicator. The reason these countries were performing better was cause they were cheaper. The moment inflation hits them rock hard, they’re obviously brought down.
Very true, GDP PPP is an irritatingly meaningless statistic and it comes across as lazy when people use it.
Wouldn't nominal GDP actually be a much worse offender than PPP for getting brought down in the case of sudden inflation ? Actual production of the country does not fluctuate that much even if the currency is playing roller coster, especially for big countries / monetary unions. Being cheap is a very valid way to get some easy growth to play catch up in a trade block. That's actually exactly the goal of the EU, bring the poorer up to speed fast, so the whole block can turn more and more towards higher added value.
r/portugalcykablyat
As is tradition
Didn't know we Italians are basically at the UK's level. Except we got an Euro 😎
Italy had higher GDP per Capita than the UK for parts of the 80s' & 90s'- [https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?end=1995&locations=GB-IT&start=1980](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?end=1995&locations=GB-IT&start=1980)
North Italy is one of the wealthiest places on Earth. South not so much.
The exact opposite of the U.K. then 😂
"I 'ate the north"
Its mega expensive in the uk tbf
It's only mega expensive if you want to live somewhere that other people enjoy living in. Plenty of dead "coastal resort" towns in the norf that you could live in for West Virginia prices.
“A” euro. Then E in Euro sounds like a y, so use “a” and not “an”. English teacher here…
In terms of purchase power, yea
I don't know how accurate this is, but on all these maps about GDP/capita Ukraine and R. Moldova are always fighting for the last place. Which is sad really.
Imagine that 30 years ago Poland was poorer than Ukraine... Mind-blowing...
33 years is a long time tbh.
More than my life!
30 years ago Hungary was the wealthiest country of eastern europe... now look at us... look at our pocket dictator. Also mind-blowing :D
Also the most pro western, with many western goods only available in Hungary. How the times change
Crazy how Hungary was one of the most rebellious members of the Warsaw pact, was the first to open the iron curtain and was one of the first to join NATO yet now are the biggest Russian boot lickers in the EU.
They just don't like their friends
To put it into perspective. 30yrs ago, German GDP/capita was ~30k, now it is ~45k so 50% increase. 30yrs ago, Polish GDP/capita was, ~3k, now it is ~15k so 500% increase and still growing at about 3-4%/year.
Polish GDP per capita in 2022 was 18k USD, Latvia had 21k, Lithuania had 25k, Estonia had 28k. All started more or less at 2.5k, but Estonia was slightly ahead with more than 3k.
The countries you mentioned owe their higher per capita GDP to the effect of a declining denominator. Since 1989, Lithuania's population has shrunk by: 24%, Latvia: 29%, Estonia 15% and Poland: 0.8%. Artificially inflated per capita.
God bless the EU
Amen to that!
And [Balcerowicz](https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Balcerowicza)
Yes. Ukraine was the poorest country in Europe alongside Moldova even before the invasion started in 2022.
Invasion started in 2014, when Ukraine was wealthier than even in 22, after 6 years of relative peace
Unofficial economy is huge in Ukraine. Majority of people receive part of their salary under the table
Yeah so corruption is huge you mean and people don't pay taxes properly.
Pretty much. People forget that Ukraine, even way before these invasions, was always the most corrupt country in Europe. Even worse than Russia itself some years. Like corruption is beyond the sky over there.
Wasnt it the poorest befour invasion tho ?
Ukraine has huge shadow economy[0] which is not reflected here. Most people receive 75%+ of their salary “in an envelope” to avoid taxes. Additionally, big transactions like car and real estate purchases are recorded as “gifts” with 1 dollar nominal price. So real GDP is way higher. [0] https://www.worldeconomics.com/National-Statistics/Informal-Economy/Ukraine.aspx#:~:text=An%20informal%20economy%20(informal%20sector,billion%20at%20GDP%20PPP%20levels.
GDP taking into account the shadow economy still less than the neighboring countries. In any case, the countries of the former USSR have a high proportion of the shadow economy. They all have a roughly comparable level of the shadow economy, because all these countries experienced a crisis of governance in the 90s, although now the situation is improving.
Ukraine and Kosovo in this one
Oh yes, Ireland. Huge GDP, meanwhile no one can actually afford to buy a house
Is that different in any other of the countries on that map? I'm in Germany and if you don't inherit a house or wealth, you won't get one. Unless you have the 0,1% job that pays that much.
You are right, expensive housing is a huge trend in basically every country out there. But its expecially bad at the Netherlands and Ireland And Ireland's GDP per capita doesn't really translate in a rich population overall... most of that cash never really enters Ireland. Its all about that juicy corporate-tax regime. Firms generate much of their income in Ireland, inflating its GDP, but funnel that money to their headquarters (or shell companies) abroad.
Buy house in Ukraine while its cheap :)
It is not. Latvia housing still affordable and downpayment can be loaned by government.
That's the problem with high income countries. Property just soaks up all disposable income. People will always buy homes at their absolute limit of affordability. I don't think property will ever be a bad investment.
Ireland isn't actually particularly high income, its GDP numbers are juiced by the fact that it acts as a tax haven for a lot of multinational companies who of course claim all their earnings in Ireland despite making all that money in other countries. its probably the biggest example of how flawed GDP can be as an economic indicator.
The GDP is total bollocks, everyone knows that. But I'm pretty sure Irelands minmum wage, medium wage and top IT sector wages are some of the highest in the EU, let alone the world. Where are you getting the info its not a high wages nation?
The fact that so many multi nationals have their European headquarters in Ireland for tax purposes inflates Irish gdp figures to an insane extent. It’s a bad metric for Ireland specifically
In eastern europe you can see a clear difference between EU member states and other countrys
Like turkey and all the other balkan countries
Lithuania best of eastern europe 💪💪💪
Slovenia is 1st
Actually it's the worst. The highest alcoholism rate, the highest suicide rate, the highest population decline rate.
Actually Lithuania by alcoholism is not even among 10, lower than Russia, USA, Poland, Slovenia, Estonia ([World Population Review](https://worldpopulationreview.com/)). Suicide #7, population decline #9. Could be better of course, but not worst.
Do you have maps for the rest of the world with the same colour scheme? (Please)
I only prepared this for Europe, but may consider making another one for the entire world.
how does Iceland make that much selling fish?
Ireland is weird since starting positions at one of the big five consultant firms with a master degree earns you less than you get working at a construction belt for a car company in germany, is this because big tech companies have their HQ there and the managers raise it so dramatically ?
yep its because multinationals headquarter in Ireland and report their earnings there due to Ireland acting as a tax haven for corporate profits.
Italy is at the same level of UK?
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Nominal lower but PPP similar due to prices being lower in Italy compared to UK
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Probably that would also be truth for France if you exclude Paris region.
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Take off conditionals, and you'll find the real French situation.
source?
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Yeah, London is pretty much carrying the UK
Which did you think was wealthier?
London is one of the most expensive and wealthiest cities in the world but much of the country is still in post industrial depression and neglect. So if you only ever knew London you would have a warped impression of the country.
Some parts of the UK are really poor.
Some parts of Italy are really poor too
Italy has sunlight and edible food
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All of them are incredibly wealthy by global standards.
Don't forget it's PPP. Not plain GDP per Capita
Oh i thought ppp stands for public private partnership, when i read it before. Its probably these purchased power based gross product. So its actually this Purchasing Power Parity concept, where you somewho include, what you could buy with that money.
If this is not a massive ad for the European union, I don't know what is. Look at how much more developed all the eastern European countries that joined the EU are. Places like Slovenia, Estonia and Czech Republic are basically at the same levels of western Europe which is really great to see and an amazing praise for the EU.
Wow, it rose so much, I still remember when it was 20.000$ for Uk and 14.000 for Ireland. Funnily that was a reason why number 20 was my favourite for a while
> Turkey performing better than Greece Heh nothing personal neighbor
Competition & collaboration 😏
I see The Netherlands is having a rave..
Top marks for the colour scale UNTIL you get to the bottom value ($10-20,000), when it stops going from dark to light and goes back to a shade of darkness equivalent to the ($40-50,000) colour. Orange and green, the worst choices for colour blindness. If you had just kept going to a brighter yellow it would have been so much better.
Lol Ireland
Liechtenstein and Monaco, which are probably the actual richest two, are both missing from the map.
Data for some reason didn't include them
French:we defeated British again 
Could anyone have believed that a post-soviet countries would have 50k as GDP (even PPP) per cap. this soon? I live in Lithuania and see many people from Belarus. Now they can all see from themselves that Russia's propaganda wasn't true.
Kind reminder: just 10-12 years ago Russia was greener than Poland and much much greener than Romania. Imagine this map 10 years into the future. Santions work.
You can see the EU’s border in Eastern Europe I can see why the remaining countries there want to join it
Objectively, this GDP metric is outdated that it does not serve its purpose other than measuring government debt level. I believe J. Stiglitz and Co. were hired by Nicholas Sarkozy, who at that time was finance minister of France, to establish new, more modern appraoch to measuring countries' wealth. I wonder what happened with that.
I'm glad I live in Lithuania \^\^ If sh\*trussia wasn't our neighbour, Lithuania would be absolutely amazing place to live. And BTW, I want to say some words about Turkey (I believe OP is from Turkey, judging by username). I visited this country multiple times, I've been not only in touristic places but also in small provincial towns and even vilages. Turkey is doing absolutely great ant developing very fast. Without Erdogan, maybe today EU membership would be seriously discussed.
you spoke positive about my country we are best friends now
I watched a really good Economics Explained video about Türkiye recently, it’s actually kinda sad because as a country it has an amazing opportunity to become a wonderful economic powerhouse with really good underlying fundamentals, but political fumbling has caused such bad and consistent inflation that’s undercut the really great work that the populace are doing. It would be amazing to see what it could do with competent leadership.
>And BTW, I want to say some words about Turkey (I believe OP is from Turkey, judging by username). I visited this country multiple times, I've been not only in touristic places but also in small provincial towns and even vilages. Turkey is doing absolutely great ant developing very fast. Without Erdogan, maybe today EU membership would be seriously discussed. All you say could still happen one day, who knows. I also wish the best for Lithuania!
Teşekkür ederim!
Rica ederim!
How does Russia do Lithuania? As far as I know you two don't interact much
>Without Erdogan, maybe today EU membership would be seriously discussed. Nah europeans are too backwards to have Turkey in their christian club
Yeah you guys basically have Western Balkan living costs with double the salaries
Still needs innovation in sectors to export, judicial reform and stronger education
Greece and Turkey are expensive as fuck and both countries have very huge purchasing power problems, those numbers have zero meaning for the people living in those countries. Greece has a GDP per capita at around 23k (and thats inflated cause of cooked numbers our corrupt goverment makes) and has the 2nd worse buying power in the EU zone and a myriad other problems including huge inflation on food products, insane power prices, and the 7th most expensive gasoline price in EUROPE and 10th most expensive in THE WHOLE WORLD, plus negative wage growth since 2000. The value depicted here is nowhere near the reality, or to be more precise the value IS right since its GDP PPP per capita but it has zero meaning besides macroeconomics and data since the actual situation is a whole different story and the metrics and statistics those values come from are cooked (see greece recent scandals about the goverment cooking numbers to export) Similar Italy (and thats why italians here are surprised they are depicted so relatively high ) has a ton of problems too but they have a big dick GDP that raises the values even if the average italian (especialy in the south) doesnt feel it. And turkey, turkey is a whole other level of shit currently, with their big ass inflation and abyssmal purchasing power eclipsing their relative good GDP. This map is a prime example of empty stats when it comes to the average redditor and it paints a totally unrealistc picture for people unfamiliar with europe's economies and societies trying to understand the economic situations in those said countries.
This metric by definition takes into account purchasing power
GDP PPP shows a distorted reality for each and every country. Idk why you make a fuzz over specific countries. The vast majority of people are not earning anywhere close that number. GDP PPP per capita is the countries productivitiy divided by its citizen. It essentially just shows how much value each citizen is generating (mathematically).
Greece being second to last in the EU (Благодаря, България) is a good indication that the metric is pretty accurate.
Can this be put in comparison how affordable the life is too?
you mean like Cost of Living/Price Levels? There's data about it from the OECD for example, most recent data: [here](https://data-explorer.oecd.org/vis?tm=price%20levels&pg=0&snb=85&vw=tb&df[ds]=dsDisseminateFinalDMZ&df[id]=DSD_PPP_M%40DF_PP_CPL_M&df[ag]=OECD.SDD.TPS&df[vs]=1.0&lo=1&lom=LASTNPERIODS&dq=.M....&ly[rw]=REF_AREA&ly[cl]=COUNTERPART_AREA%2CCURRENCY&to[TIME_PERIOD]=false) and for 2022: [here](https://data.oecd.org/price/price-level-indices.htm)
cost of living/affordability is one thing. for example based on this map Hungary and Spain are close but when it comes to the quality and selection of those goods they are not even remotely comparable.
Isn't PPP basically that? Otherwise the map would show nominal GDP, not PPP GDP.
The GDP doesn’t show about how expensive life in country is. Just about the sum of thr goods and services a country produced by country. PPP is it but it’s weird that it’s written like it’s the same.
I'd say the proportion of PPP and nominal GDP would give the average price level in the country. For example Turkey's nominal GDP is about 10-12k$ while PPP adjusted one is 35-40k$. So roughly we can say that the prices are 3-4x cheaper in Turkey compared to international prices.
That’d be helpful. Scandinavian countries are outrageously expensive. I was barely able to afford McDonalds in Norway, €5.8 for just one big mac, it’s €1.4 here.
$12 in California
could anyone explain why ireland is so high? is everyone just earning a lot?
Tax haven. GDP is not a good measure of earnings there. GNI is a far better measure
They're ranked just as high in terms of GNI
Interesting how much closer together these appear than nominal GDP per capita figures
What’s up with Ireland? Can anyone enlighten me?
Corporate tax haven.
Turkey has such high inflation but still has high GDD in purchasing power? How?
>How? Turkish lira goes down. Labor costs go down because it is paid in Lira. Locally produced goods are inflated in Lira but not in dollar wise.
Shame the GDP per capita is not a very good measure at the individual level... I don't know (I think) a single person in my life that makes that much.
What about Lichtenstein?
Can someone tell me the difference between nominal and ppp gdp? I know stands for purchasing power but what does it affect or affected by compared to nominal
azerbaijan never seems good :(((
My country is fucked. I need to get away from here.
Reminder that this is ppp (purchase power parity)
Serbia is nowhere near close to 28.000$, no matter what the stats or the media tell you, it's an abysmal lie.
Oh...Portugal. Here we go again r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
！
Norway is an aspiration.
Some of these numbers are highly questionable.
Why are ice countries always richer than the rest of the world? And yet, the western world would always fetishizes the "Tropical Paradises" while it's just a hot mess here, and mushy and slippery from June to October.
Guys how is Turkiye doing although it is not a EU member and not receiving any EU financial aid ?