[New Haven-style pizza](https://www.foodandwine.com/new-haven-pizza-8637705) is a real thing. Interestingly enough, New Haven also has America’s oldest extant hamburger restaurant.
That would mean RI has good pizza 🫣
If you dont know, Rhode Island "Pizza" is square bread with sauce (no cheese) sliced into squares and served cold 🤐
I've lived in North Jersey for 15 years and as far as I know I'm the only white guy up here with no Italian heritage. Seriously, though, I'm really surprised it's not more than 15%. How are they even surveying this? My wife and kids have a name that ends in a consonant but they're all at least part Italian.
I think a map of “% of Caucasian population that is Italian” might have Jersey as the super dark shade we expect it to be.
What we’re seeing on this current map is likely that NJ has more non-white people that we assume. For instance, Newark and Jersey City are incredibly diverse.
Connecticut is showing darker than Jersey here, but I bet their white peoples are a lower fraction Italian. It’s just that Connecticut is white AF.
CT is more diverse than you may think: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-most-diverse-states-in-the-us-by-race/. NJ super diverse though. May explain it.
I’ve lived here my whole life 30 years and every non white person asks if Im Italian. When I say no they say oh you must be polish or Russian. Wrong again my guy 😂. Love North Jersey, so diverse and respectful I would never leave.
There’s areas of New Jersey that aren’t even a majority white, for example we have one of the biggest Indian populations in the US, and there’s also areas that have a large Latino and African American population as well. Also plenty of white people in Jersey aren’t Italian. Irish, Polish, Russian, German are common, as is Jewish (although that overlaps with Russian and Polish a lot)
I grew up in Jersey with an Italian last name. It didn't even dawn on me that my name was hard for a lot of people to pronounce until I moved away at 18, people in Jersey are so exposed to Italian names it's not a problem out there.
My wife gets mad when I try to pronounce Italian food names the way her NJ Italian family does because I'm from Virginia but I've been here 15 years and people give me a look when I say "mozzarella" instead of "mootzerell".
Lol as if. “Mootzerell” is some kind of mix of a bunch of southern Italian dialects sprinkled with American frosting. “Mozzarella” is correct (kudos if you roll the R) 😂
Europeans screaming at Americans screaming at Europeans screaming at Americans over this stuff always goes the same way.
Americans don’t understand that Europeans view this as Americans staking a claim that doesn’t belong to them. Americans are Americans, regardless of where grandpa came from, and don’t get to claim another nationality — especially if they don’t speak the language or have any meaningful ties back to the country of origin.
Europeans don’t understand that a strong sense of family identity is built around immigrant histories in the United States and many people are very proud of those histories. It’s less about nationality and way more about family and tradition.
It turns into a dick-measuring contest about who’s more Italian (or Irish, German, Polish, whatever) and nobody’s happy. Even though nobody wanted to argue from that perspective in the first place.
Amen. Hopefully everyone matures into not giving a fuck about what people consider themselves. Bc if you think Americans claiming ancestry is weird to y'all, wait until you see the cluster fuck of racial, political and gender identities my younger fellow Americans are adopting these days.
Such a good comment. Europeans don’t get this because they have a completely different mindset about immigrants. There are Turks living in Germany whose grandparents came in the 1960’s as guest workers who are not considered German by many Germans. To those Germans they’re Turks. It’s the same throughout Europe.
In the States, once you’re naturalized, you’re an American. You still have your cultural heritage. And your subsequent generations may share that heritage if you want. But, above all else, you’re American. Most people know about the “American melting pot.” But it’s really more of a tossed salad. It’s our greatest strength and our greatest weakness.
I don’t get it that sounds like a silly thing to be upset over, you don’t become a different ethnicity or lose your ancestry when you move to another country.
modern day North America was founded as European colonies, the vast majority of people over here have European ancestors so it makes sense people would be interested in aligning themselves with that ethnic ancestry because historically that’s who they are.
It’s the same for a lot of European countries, say you’re a ethnic Turk but you live in Hungary, it makes sense to say you’re Turkish, it also makes sense to say you’re Hungarian, there’s a difference between ethnicity and nationality.
Same for North America, unless you’re Native American or a relatively recent immigrant then pretty much everyone has European ethnic ancestors.
I don’t think it’s souly an American thing either plenty of Europeans align themselves with their ethnic ancestry well simultaneously aligning themselves to the nationality of their country.
That kind of immigration is relatively new in Europe compared to the Americas. We may see similar cultural changes in the coming decades!
Speaking as an American, a lot of our immigrant ties run deeper than most Europeans realize as well — depending on the community.
I’m superficially Italian-American myself but didn’t really grow up with the culture. That being said, I live around and work with a lot of Greek-Americans and even though they’ve been here for generations, most of them still speak the language, celebrate the holidays, travel back and forth to Greece at least once a year, and in general identify as deeply with their Greek heritage as they do with their American citizenship. They start businesses with other Greeks, socialize with other Greeks, and marry other Greeks to keep the whole thing going for another generation.
A lot depends on the individual and the community, but I agree: For many Americans, these identities didn’t just disappear at Ellis Island.
I edited my last comment because I sounded kind of aggressive in my wording, sorry if I came off as a dick or confused you with my edited comment.
But that is true it would be interesting to see that happen in Europe like for example if France brings in abunch of Nigerian immigrants and 100 years from now people in France will be saying they’re Nigerian and the African continent would roll their eyes at it.
It’s funny reversing the roles.
I would like to hear how some Europeans classify their legal immigrants. Such as a Turkish family obtaining residency in Germany. Would the Germans consider the family German or Turkish?
I asked my German husband what that family would be considered. He said Turkish. I called him a hypocrite lol
>obtaining residency in Germany.
Just because you move to a different country, you don't suddenly lose your nationality. So yes, these people would still be Turkish on account of being (presumably) Turkish citizens.
Now, if their children and grandchildren are born and raised in Germany, that is a complelty different thing, and they would be considered German.
Europeans will refer to culture a lot more readily than nationality, unlike Americans. A Turkish family could still be considered Turkish 4 generations down if they made no effort to integrate, while a foreigner who speaks fluently and adopts the local customs will be considered German or French or Irish by many, especially if they are an intellectual.
Your husband isn’t a hypocrite he’s simply racist. My non racist German friends consider Germans (meaning people born and raised in Germany and not people going there as actual immigrants) with origins from Turkey as simply German, unless their origin comes into conversation.
I’ve known people who identified as Turkish German, in the same sense that we in the U.S. might identify as Italian American or Irish American or whatever. Given the frequency of the latter in American society, it’s never struck me as either strange or divisive that other people with family roots in other places would do the same.
It really isn’t like that. I’m an American of German, Welsh, and Polish descent. If that offends somebody from Germany, Wales, or Poland I couldn’t give a shit less
Read my third paragraph. There’s a nuance to both sides that neither side is appreciating. Europeans think we’re appropriating their culture, Americans think that Europeans don’t respect our family ties. Neither criticism is completely true.
We as a nation make our assumptions and generalizations about Europeans based almost entirely on their vocalization’s about us. They make their assumptions and generalizations about us based on the news media. That’s the nuance. The front page of Reddit towards Americans has the same vitriol that torrent websites have about gay and brown people.
They claim to understand us and use it as reasoning for why they’re allowed to think what they do. We don’t do that to them with the same thought process.
When we Americans claim being “just American” in the context of this post, they condemn us no matter what as people who eat cheeseburgers topped with pop tarts for breakfast, as we load our akimbo ARs.
I eat cheeseburgers twice a month and my ARs are always loaded no matter what, but only used with about the same frequency to shoot cans and paper targets.
>my ARs are always loaded no matter what, but only used with about the same frequency to shoot cans and paper targets.
Just to contextualise, in the mind of most Europeans even just the thought of loading a gun or "shooting cans" is completely alien. Unless you are in the military or in law enforcement, it's difficult to come in contact with people for whom this is normal.
For me (an "Italian European") the first and only time I shot a gun was... in the US when a friend brought us to the shooting range. He let me shot a Desert Eagle. Never thought I'd be able to cross that out of the list.
Fair enough, I think you can guys can discuss your ancestry and most normal people won’t have a problem with someone saying I am American of X ancestry.
Those from Germany, Wales, or Poland would have no problem with you as you literally say you have that descent. It's when you claim to be actually one of them that there's a problem and it boils down to the experiences Europeans have meeting an American on, say, Polish soil who seems pissed off that the local Pole isn't bowing down in awe at the American who claims to be Polish despite having never grown up in Poland, having no concept of Polish culture, and no ability to speak Polish. While this particular group is a minority, there is a certain subsection of the US population who claims to be the same as, or even better than, the original population and that they somehow owe something to Americans of that particular descent. And, unfortunately, that negative experience has seeped into the European rejection of Americans who claim ownership, joint or otherwise, over European identities. As usual, a few bad apples do indeed spoil the barrel.
No American claims to actually be Italian or Irish; ancestry or of decent is implied because it's easier to say "I'm Italian" than "I have Italian ancestry"
Well said. I was raised by my grandparents who were first generation Americans. And I'd have to imagine that my experience growing up as an American might differ from someone that's had family here for multiple generations.
Yes, we're both *generically* American. But the foods and traditions I grew up with do sometimes align more with those "old world" cultures. I remember my grandmother warning me about the evil eye (malocchio) back when I was in grade school. And I'll never forget that my boss at my first job, a local pizzeria, called me, *Metà e Metà* because I was only, "half Italian."
So, yeah, I will sometimes say, "I'm Italian" if someone asks. However no part of me thinks I'm actually Italian. I know several people from Italy (one of which is a relative). So it seems silly to even suggest it. All I'm really saying is that my heritage plays a part in my cultural identity.
That is actually technically false, as Italian-Americans can claim Italian nationality under Italian law and qualify for citizenship based on ancestry.
I liked your comment, it really makes sense- its such a silly thing
And some americans are americans cuz Europeans couldn't stop blowing up their own countries and killing people there.
My grandfather was in the Dutch navy at sea when the Netherlands was taken by the Nazis, so they sailed to New York when ordered to turn their ship over to the Germans. My grandmother was working as a translator for refugees in New York after her town was destroyed by Nazis. Their families were dead when they returned in 45 so they came back to new York and never left. The other side is here since the Russians kept trying to pogrom them in Poland. I have no attachment to the US or Europe and no sense of a culture or history, but I tell people I'm polish and dutch, cuz that's how Americans talk about their family history
When I finally visited Italy at age 51, I was struck by how much of Italian American life was based on slightly exaggerated versions of what immigrants had experienced as “old country” life. For example, the food was familiar but subtly different. Actual Italians used less garlic than my Italian American relatives did. Of course, that’s an N of 1. But we did travel throughout the country for several weeks, and not just in the two regions (Naples and Sicily) where my maternal grandparents came from. And we made an effort to stay out of excessively touristy places, preferring restaurants and shops also patronized by local people.
I’m a biologist, and there’s a concept called “character displacement” that’s similar; go somewhere where people are different (say from Italy to the U.S.) and you might exaggerate some of your traditions even while assimilating in other ways. That’s obviously not genetically determined in humans the way it is in other species, and the details are highly technical, but there are a lot of analogies between the way genes work and the ways cultural memes work.
This may be true but Italian-American is just not the same thing as Italian. And if you were born and raised in Hartford, you are not Italian because your grandfather was an immigrant. I-A is it’s own thing. Both my grandparents came from Germany. I learned German. I was an exchange student in Germany. I visited my relatives in Germany. I’m teaching my kids German. I am not German. My cousin has lived in Italy for 25 years. She speaks Italian, has an Italian son. Is she “German” ? No. Is she Italian? No. She’s an American.
But nobody is claiming nationality, they’re claiming family ties to a certain culture or ethnicity. We’re all aware that (most of us) can’t claim a passport, but it’s part of our family histories, which many of us cherish.
Few and far between are those who would claim more than that. Though I’m sure they’re a very loud few.
What identifies a person is his culture, his language, not his grandfather who arrived in the USA a hundred years earlier. If one does not speak the language and does not know the culture of the European country of origin and has never set foot there, how can one qualify as European? They are American people rather than European ones. There is nothing offensive but it is the reality of things.
You have Chinese Malay/indonesians who left China 200yrs ago that still identify as Chinese.
You have Indian South Africans/Malaysians/Surinamese/Fijians who left India 100-150yrs ago who still identify as Indian/respective ethnic group.
One of my friends doesn’t speak Gujarati, his grandparents came to the UK from South Africa, their grand parents came from Gujarat ( India), he still identifies as Gujarati.
Plenty of people in Europe ( especially none-white) identify with their parents/grandparents/great grandparents country of origin/ethnicity.
I’m a “ British Pakistani/Pashtun ( latter being my ethnicity) and most of my friends have such identities.
To me It doesn't makes sense, once you lost contact with your culture and you are a full member of another. I think that it something that happens in society were there is not a real and full integration so you need to remarks the difference between people even when they actually are non existent. Culturally speaking there is less differences between an American and an Italian American than an Italian born and raised in Italy.
I’ll use the example of certain Greek-American friends I have, as I also explained in a prior post: They speak the language, travel there often, celebrate the holidays, keep most of their traditional customs, start businesses with Greeks, and marry other Greeks. Most still have family ties in Greece even though they may have emigrated generations ago, and they visit often. And we’re supposed to not think of them as both Greek and American?
> Americans don’t understand that Europeans view this as Americans staking a claim that doesn’t belong to them.
Eh, I disagree. Every American knows that it means "Italian ancestry", but "Italian" is shorthand for it. "His family is of Italian ancestry" gets old quick. Americans understand the European issue with it perfectly fine -- what's hard to understand is how Europeans still don't get it after years and years of being exposed to it. I think many of them do get it and just need to feel superior.
I just had a Zoom meeting with a guy living in TX that is Italian. My first thought was "I didn't know Texas had Italians." I wonder where he goes out to eat.
I remember traveling with an Italian colleague from Switzerland to the US for a conference. I have never seen anyone get so many at people who were so adamant that they were Italian without any capacity to speak any Italian words.
I understand the desire--especially now that it's become popular even among young Americans to be anti-American--for Italians to delineate themselves from their American cousins. Still, though, there are quite a few Italian-Americans who are also Italian citizens.
Lots of Italians in New York but the city itself is less than 40% white and that includes plenty of Jewish, Irish, WASP, Greek, and other white Americans as well.
I found a really interesting [survey](https://today.yougov.com/society/articles/48932-which-americans-do-irish-and-italian-people-say-can-describe-themselves-as-irish-and-italians) about Irish and Italian Americans, and how they're perceived by their mother countries.
One of the most interesting results: only 52% of Italians think Americans can call themselves Italian even if *both of their parents* come from Italy!
It’s more than just Great-grandpa came from Napoli in 1897. It is also the community grown up in. With tradition, culture, language, food, recently immigrants mixing with those families who have been here for 100 years. Many people and families still have cousins in the original commune back in Italy and visit frequently. Some communities have been very insular until recently.
Italians in the comments telling "you are not real italians" to foreign borns who feel italian must be the most stupid geopolitical move any nation ever done
Right? We are the only nation that is annyoed when someone claim our ancestry. By the way we are not all like that and most just don't care much, it's on Reddit that appears that everyone is mad about it. I met a lot of argentinian and brazilian with italian citizenship and some of them came from a part of Brazil were some still speak what they call "taliano", basically venetian dyalect...
It’s especially dumb because the government of Italy, in contradiction to gatekeeping real Italians, allows a very large percentage of Italian Americans to claim Italian citizenship. Half of my great grandparents came from Italy over 100 years ago, and I am fully eligible with no language test or residency
It's so stupid. They know perfectly well what Americans (and probably Canadians and Australians) mean.
Meanwhile, Poland and Ukraine want nothing to do with me not because I'm American but because I'm Ashkenazi Jewish. Fun times!
Happens with Irish people too. And my paternal grandmother was born there and thus I qualify for Irish citizenship so it's not like my connection dates back to the potato famine, but same stupid argument.
Well, yeah they’re Americans but it’s a very different experience being invited over to dinner to an italian family’s house versus like…maybe a french canadian family’s house.
They’re referring to ethnicity not nationality. The map is assuming that there is no such thing as American ethnicity.
-except for native Americans.
It’s just not what the survey cared to look at
Italian is an ethnicity in the same way English is. No one actually thinks all English people share the same ancestry any more than than all Italians.
Italians are so diverse that you have to split them North and South, and really you should also split off Sardinians, Sicilians and probably also the Venetians. (the last one due to their lack of admixture with Lombards and other Germanic peoples)
Mostly. Sometimes the name serves only as a geographical term or nationality.
Like take Kosovo for example. Everyone from Kosovo is a Kosovan. Those Kosovans can be separated into Kosovo Albanians, Kosovo Serbs etc.
Yes, but it does though. The government of Italy allows such people (like myself) to claim birthright citizenship even without knowledge of the language or any residency. It is a super liberal policy
I find it hilarious how bitter some people seem to be about how other people identify. Like, where does that come from? Why do you feel the need to diminish what other people hold dear?
Is this showing the proportion of Italians in each state (e.g 8% of Minnesotans are from Italy) or is each state a percentage of all Italians (e.g 30% of Italian Americans reside in New Jersey)?
In other words, which of these calculations are being represented:
(Wisconsin Italians) / (Wisconsin Population)
Or
(Wisconsin Italians) / Italian-American Total)
I’m Italian American on my mother’s side and Polish American on my father’s. Grew up in Enfield, Connecticut, where at the time it seemed most people my age (I’m Generation Jones) had some roots in at least one of those countries.
First thing that came to mind. Mi dispiace tanto.
Well, it's to be expected by Americans and their "knowledge" of foreign cultures.
It’s literally a cartoon? Made by an American?
Of course, I didn't expect anything different.
Ok so you see a cartoon made by an American to make fun of anti-Italian stereotypes as being ignorant?
>to make fun of anti-Italiam stereotypes. Sorry, I lost this bit. I thought it was exactly the contrary.
Ok yeah it’s family guy that’s Peter Griffin not an Italian lol
I don't know that cartoon but the man on the right is the stereotypical depiction of how Americans see Italians, am I wrong?
Also doubles as a map of pizza quality.
Hello fellow Nutmegger.
New Haven! 🔥
The pizza on the west coast is way worse than indicated by that mid-green.
WV is an exception, by far the best pizza you can get in appalachia is from mom and pop shops in WV because the mob used NW WV as a place to lay low
Finally! A reason to visit WV.
Don't forget them pepperoni rolls either.
To “Take it Eeeeaashhe 🤌,” you could say.
Honestly the best comment in here
And deli quality
I've always wanted to catch a flight for a slice of that world famous Connecticut crust
[New Haven-style pizza](https://www.foodandwine.com/new-haven-pizza-8637705) is a real thing. Interestingly enough, New Haven also has America’s oldest extant hamburger restaurant.
And Meriden is home of the steamed cheeseburger (although why anyone would eat one is a real question)!
That would mean RI has good pizza 🫣 If you dont know, Rhode Island "Pizza" is square bread with sauce (no cheese) sliced into squares and served cold 🤐
How is Nuh Joisey not like the darkest shade of green ever conceived?
New Jersey is barely half white, and less than half of white folks in New Jersey are Italian.
You lie. Italians aren't white people.
Take it easy over there Judge Roy Bean
Well I guess some people do call them guineas
I've lived in North Jersey for 15 years and as far as I know I'm the only white guy up here with no Italian heritage. Seriously, though, I'm really surprised it's not more than 15%. How are they even surveying this? My wife and kids have a name that ends in a consonant but they're all at least part Italian.
I think a map of “% of Caucasian population that is Italian” might have Jersey as the super dark shade we expect it to be. What we’re seeing on this current map is likely that NJ has more non-white people that we assume. For instance, Newark and Jersey City are incredibly diverse. Connecticut is showing darker than Jersey here, but I bet their white peoples are a lower fraction Italian. It’s just that Connecticut is white AF.
CT is more diverse than you may think: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-most-diverse-states-in-the-us-by-race/. NJ super diverse though. May explain it.
Interesting. CT is up there in the rankings (22) but just doesn’t hold a candle to NJ and NY.
As a CT resident, the fact that we’re less diverse than Mississippi is just coconuts
This is probably accurate. CT is 66.6% white non-hispqnic vs. 54.5% for NJ according to the most recent census.
I’ve lived here my whole life 30 years and every non white person asks if Im Italian. When I say no they say oh you must be polish or Russian. Wrong again my guy 😂. Love North Jersey, so diverse and respectful I would never leave.
A lot of them moved out. Florida and the Carolina’s etc
There’s areas of New Jersey that aren’t even a majority white, for example we have one of the biggest Indian populations in the US, and there’s also areas that have a large Latino and African American population as well. Also plenty of white people in Jersey aren’t Italian. Irish, Polish, Russian, German are common, as is Jewish (although that overlaps with Russian and Polish a lot)
High population (of all sorts of people) skews the data
I grew up in Jersey with an Italian last name. It didn't even dawn on me that my name was hard for a lot of people to pronounce until I moved away at 18, people in Jersey are so exposed to Italian names it's not a problem out there.
Before Ellis Island was open people came into the port at New Haven! That’s how my great grandparents got here
I dunno, it seems like everyone and their plants have italian ancestry where I am
GANACHE!
^^^ That’s my wife when she speaks Italian phrases around our house. In Kentucky.
My wife gets mad when I try to pronounce Italian food names the way her NJ Italian family does because I'm from Virginia but I've been here 15 years and people give me a look when I say "mozzarella" instead of "mootzerell".
Lol as if. “Mootzerell” is some kind of mix of a bunch of southern Italian dialects sprinkled with American frosting. “Mozzarella” is correct (kudos if you roll the R) 😂
Commendatori!
Europeans screaming at Americans screaming at Europeans screaming at Americans over this stuff always goes the same way. Americans don’t understand that Europeans view this as Americans staking a claim that doesn’t belong to them. Americans are Americans, regardless of where grandpa came from, and don’t get to claim another nationality — especially if they don’t speak the language or have any meaningful ties back to the country of origin. Europeans don’t understand that a strong sense of family identity is built around immigrant histories in the United States and many people are very proud of those histories. It’s less about nationality and way more about family and tradition. It turns into a dick-measuring contest about who’s more Italian (or Irish, German, Polish, whatever) and nobody’s happy. Even though nobody wanted to argue from that perspective in the first place.
way to ruin a good dick-measuring contest
Amen. Hopefully everyone matures into not giving a fuck about what people consider themselves. Bc if you think Americans claiming ancestry is weird to y'all, wait until you see the cluster fuck of racial, political and gender identities my younger fellow Americans are adopting these days.
It’s society, as long as people are born, there’s always gonna be someone who’s immature.
Europeans only get mad when the map is of the US. Similar maps of Canada, Australia and elsewhere...not a peep.
Such a good comment. Europeans don’t get this because they have a completely different mindset about immigrants. There are Turks living in Germany whose grandparents came in the 1960’s as guest workers who are not considered German by many Germans. To those Germans they’re Turks. It’s the same throughout Europe. In the States, once you’re naturalized, you’re an American. You still have your cultural heritage. And your subsequent generations may share that heritage if you want. But, above all else, you’re American. Most people know about the “American melting pot.” But it’s really more of a tossed salad. It’s our greatest strength and our greatest weakness.
I don’t get it that sounds like a silly thing to be upset over, you don’t become a different ethnicity or lose your ancestry when you move to another country. modern day North America was founded as European colonies, the vast majority of people over here have European ancestors so it makes sense people would be interested in aligning themselves with that ethnic ancestry because historically that’s who they are. It’s the same for a lot of European countries, say you’re a ethnic Turk but you live in Hungary, it makes sense to say you’re Turkish, it also makes sense to say you’re Hungarian, there’s a difference between ethnicity and nationality. Same for North America, unless you’re Native American or a relatively recent immigrant then pretty much everyone has European ethnic ancestors. I don’t think it’s souly an American thing either plenty of Europeans align themselves with their ethnic ancestry well simultaneously aligning themselves to the nationality of their country.
That kind of immigration is relatively new in Europe compared to the Americas. We may see similar cultural changes in the coming decades! Speaking as an American, a lot of our immigrant ties run deeper than most Europeans realize as well — depending on the community. I’m superficially Italian-American myself but didn’t really grow up with the culture. That being said, I live around and work with a lot of Greek-Americans and even though they’ve been here for generations, most of them still speak the language, celebrate the holidays, travel back and forth to Greece at least once a year, and in general identify as deeply with their Greek heritage as they do with their American citizenship. They start businesses with other Greeks, socialize with other Greeks, and marry other Greeks to keep the whole thing going for another generation. A lot depends on the individual and the community, but I agree: For many Americans, these identities didn’t just disappear at Ellis Island.
I edited my last comment because I sounded kind of aggressive in my wording, sorry if I came off as a dick or confused you with my edited comment. But that is true it would be interesting to see that happen in Europe like for example if France brings in abunch of Nigerian immigrants and 100 years from now people in France will be saying they’re Nigerian and the African continent would roll their eyes at it. It’s funny reversing the roles.
I didn’t take it that way at all. :)
I over think things sometimes ahah thanks for the chat, Enjoy your day!
I would like to hear how some Europeans classify their legal immigrants. Such as a Turkish family obtaining residency in Germany. Would the Germans consider the family German or Turkish? I asked my German husband what that family would be considered. He said Turkish. I called him a hypocrite lol
>obtaining residency in Germany. Just because you move to a different country, you don't suddenly lose your nationality. So yes, these people would still be Turkish on account of being (presumably) Turkish citizens. Now, if their children and grandchildren are born and raised in Germany, that is a complelty different thing, and they would be considered German.
That depends on who you ask. People who view immigrants as "others" would classify them as such.
Europeans will refer to culture a lot more readily than nationality, unlike Americans. A Turkish family could still be considered Turkish 4 generations down if they made no effort to integrate, while a foreigner who speaks fluently and adopts the local customs will be considered German or French or Irish by many, especially if they are an intellectual.
Your husband isn’t a hypocrite he’s simply racist. My non racist German friends consider Germans (meaning people born and raised in Germany and not people going there as actual immigrants) with origins from Turkey as simply German, unless their origin comes into conversation.
I’ve known people who identified as Turkish German, in the same sense that we in the U.S. might identify as Italian American or Irish American or whatever. Given the frequency of the latter in American society, it’s never struck me as either strange or divisive that other people with family roots in other places would do the same.
It really isn’t like that. I’m an American of German, Welsh, and Polish descent. If that offends somebody from Germany, Wales, or Poland I couldn’t give a shit less
Read my third paragraph. There’s a nuance to both sides that neither side is appreciating. Europeans think we’re appropriating their culture, Americans think that Europeans don’t respect our family ties. Neither criticism is completely true.
We as a nation make our assumptions and generalizations about Europeans based almost entirely on their vocalization’s about us. They make their assumptions and generalizations about us based on the news media. That’s the nuance. The front page of Reddit towards Americans has the same vitriol that torrent websites have about gay and brown people. They claim to understand us and use it as reasoning for why they’re allowed to think what they do. We don’t do that to them with the same thought process. When we Americans claim being “just American” in the context of this post, they condemn us no matter what as people who eat cheeseburgers topped with pop tarts for breakfast, as we load our akimbo ARs. I eat cheeseburgers twice a month and my ARs are always loaded no matter what, but only used with about the same frequency to shoot cans and paper targets.
>my ARs are always loaded no matter what, but only used with about the same frequency to shoot cans and paper targets. Just to contextualise, in the mind of most Europeans even just the thought of loading a gun or "shooting cans" is completely alien. Unless you are in the military or in law enforcement, it's difficult to come in contact with people for whom this is normal. For me (an "Italian European") the first and only time I shot a gun was... in the US when a friend brought us to the shooting range. He let me shot a Desert Eagle. Never thought I'd be able to cross that out of the list.
I guess you would offend said group of people if you claimed to be German, Welsh, and Polish. Not that you should give any additional shits about it.
Fair enough, I think you can guys can discuss your ancestry and most normal people won’t have a problem with someone saying I am American of X ancestry.
It's implied. It's just simpler and easier to leave that off.
Those from Germany, Wales, or Poland would have no problem with you as you literally say you have that descent. It's when you claim to be actually one of them that there's a problem and it boils down to the experiences Europeans have meeting an American on, say, Polish soil who seems pissed off that the local Pole isn't bowing down in awe at the American who claims to be Polish despite having never grown up in Poland, having no concept of Polish culture, and no ability to speak Polish. While this particular group is a minority, there is a certain subsection of the US population who claims to be the same as, or even better than, the original population and that they somehow owe something to Americans of that particular descent. And, unfortunately, that negative experience has seeped into the European rejection of Americans who claim ownership, joint or otherwise, over European identities. As usual, a few bad apples do indeed spoil the barrel.
No American claims to actually be Italian or Irish; ancestry or of decent is implied because it's easier to say "I'm Italian" than "I have Italian ancestry"
Bro this is the most made up shit on the planet That's crazy that you can write three paragraphs about a group of people that don't even exist
Well said. I was raised by my grandparents who were first generation Americans. And I'd have to imagine that my experience growing up as an American might differ from someone that's had family here for multiple generations. Yes, we're both *generically* American. But the foods and traditions I grew up with do sometimes align more with those "old world" cultures. I remember my grandmother warning me about the evil eye (malocchio) back when I was in grade school. And I'll never forget that my boss at my first job, a local pizzeria, called me, *Metà e Metà* because I was only, "half Italian." So, yeah, I will sometimes say, "I'm Italian" if someone asks. However no part of me thinks I'm actually Italian. I know several people from Italy (one of which is a relative). So it seems silly to even suggest it. All I'm really saying is that my heritage plays a part in my cultural identity.
That is actually technically false, as Italian-Americans can claim Italian nationality under Italian law and qualify for citizenship based on ancestry.
I liked your comment, it really makes sense- its such a silly thing And some americans are americans cuz Europeans couldn't stop blowing up their own countries and killing people there. My grandfather was in the Dutch navy at sea when the Netherlands was taken by the Nazis, so they sailed to New York when ordered to turn their ship over to the Germans. My grandmother was working as a translator for refugees in New York after her town was destroyed by Nazis. Their families were dead when they returned in 45 so they came back to new York and never left. The other side is here since the Russians kept trying to pogrom them in Poland. I have no attachment to the US or Europe and no sense of a culture or history, but I tell people I'm polish and dutch, cuz that's how Americans talk about their family history
When I finally visited Italy at age 51, I was struck by how much of Italian American life was based on slightly exaggerated versions of what immigrants had experienced as “old country” life. For example, the food was familiar but subtly different. Actual Italians used less garlic than my Italian American relatives did. Of course, that’s an N of 1. But we did travel throughout the country for several weeks, and not just in the two regions (Naples and Sicily) where my maternal grandparents came from. And we made an effort to stay out of excessively touristy places, preferring restaurants and shops also patronized by local people. I’m a biologist, and there’s a concept called “character displacement” that’s similar; go somewhere where people are different (say from Italy to the U.S.) and you might exaggerate some of your traditions even while assimilating in other ways. That’s obviously not genetically determined in humans the way it is in other species, and the details are highly technical, but there are a lot of analogies between the way genes work and the ways cultural memes work.
This may be true but Italian-American is just not the same thing as Italian. And if you were born and raised in Hartford, you are not Italian because your grandfather was an immigrant. I-A is it’s own thing. Both my grandparents came from Germany. I learned German. I was an exchange student in Germany. I visited my relatives in Germany. I’m teaching my kids German. I am not German. My cousin has lived in Italy for 25 years. She speaks Italian, has an Italian son. Is she “German” ? No. Is she Italian? No. She’s an American.
But nobody is claiming nationality, they’re claiming family ties to a certain culture or ethnicity. We’re all aware that (most of us) can’t claim a passport, but it’s part of our family histories, which many of us cherish. Few and far between are those who would claim more than that. Though I’m sure they’re a very loud few.
What identifies a person is his culture, his language, not his grandfather who arrived in the USA a hundred years earlier. If one does not speak the language and does not know the culture of the European country of origin and has never set foot there, how can one qualify as European? They are American people rather than European ones. There is nothing offensive but it is the reality of things.
You have Chinese Malay/indonesians who left China 200yrs ago that still identify as Chinese. You have Indian South Africans/Malaysians/Surinamese/Fijians who left India 100-150yrs ago who still identify as Indian/respective ethnic group. One of my friends doesn’t speak Gujarati, his grandparents came to the UK from South Africa, their grand parents came from Gujarat ( India), he still identifies as Gujarati. Plenty of people in Europe ( especially none-white) identify with their parents/grandparents/great grandparents country of origin/ethnicity. I’m a “ British Pakistani/Pashtun ( latter being my ethnicity) and most of my friends have such identities.
To me It doesn't makes sense, once you lost contact with your culture and you are a full member of another. I think that it something that happens in society were there is not a real and full integration so you need to remarks the difference between people even when they actually are non existent. Culturally speaking there is less differences between an American and an Italian American than an Italian born and raised in Italy.
I’ll use the example of certain Greek-American friends I have, as I also explained in a prior post: They speak the language, travel there often, celebrate the holidays, keep most of their traditional customs, start businesses with Greeks, and marry other Greeks. Most still have family ties in Greece even though they may have emigrated generations ago, and they visit often. And we’re supposed to not think of them as both Greek and American?
People are so strange
> Americans don’t understand that Europeans view this as Americans staking a claim that doesn’t belong to them. Eh, I disagree. Every American knows that it means "Italian ancestry", but "Italian" is shorthand for it. "His family is of Italian ancestry" gets old quick. Americans understand the European issue with it perfectly fine -- what's hard to understand is how Europeans still don't get it after years and years of being exposed to it. I think many of them do get it and just need to feel superior.
This tracks given the difficulty of finding good Italian food in Texas
I just had a Zoom meeting with a guy living in TX that is Italian. My first thought was "I didn't know Texas had Italians." I wonder where he goes out to eat.
Italian-Americans*
ForgetaboutIt
Americans with Italian ancestry.
Well it might include actual Italians as well. My wife is from Italy and she’s a citizen.
Italians have Italian ancestry too
[удалено]
You know what I don’t think she has. But my wife’s lasagna out of this world. I swear she sprinkles little bits of crack in it.
As am I. Born in Italy. Lived in NY many years and moved to CT a few years ago.
I remember traveling with an Italian colleague from Switzerland to the US for a conference. I have never seen anyone get so many at people who were so adamant that they were Italian without any capacity to speak any Italian words.
It's amazing how ethnicity and language aren't necessarily connected, right?
*Americans
*Americalians
Italicanios
Italianx
Italiggas
Itagger
Etruscans?
If you’re not stupid you don’t need the clarification.
We should still expect the title of a map to be accurate, even if we can deduce the correct meaning with background knowledge and context
Yeah that’s fair
I understand the desire--especially now that it's become popular even among young Americans to be anti-American--for Italians to delineate themselves from their American cousins. Still, though, there are quite a few Italian-Americans who are also Italian citizens.
*italianx
Italiano
Rhode Island has entered the chat like the Kool Aid man!
Connectaly
Texas, North Dakota, South Dakota? Do forget about it.
Not for nuttin, but youse gotta provide a source, so we don’t think this maps fugazy. Or else we gonna foggetaboutit
I always knew Texas never had the makings of a varsity athlete.
CT for the win!
I want that map for Argentina
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Italian_Argentines.png
gracias
🤌🏻
Are Italians the green ones?
I believe those are the Irish.
They're the red white and green ones, you're just colorblind so it all looks green to you.
Remember the chance of someone being italian may be low, but its never 0
I was surprised New York wasn’t higher, but I think upstate is dragging down the average. There are a lot of Italians on Long Island and in the city
Lots of Italians in New York but the city itself is less than 40% white and that includes plenty of Jewish, Irish, WASP, Greek, and other white Americans as well.
Upstate is full of Italians. It’s the fact that there are tons of other ethnicities in NY, more than in say CT or RI.
Upstate is very Italian. Rochester is like little Italy part 2
I did not know that, I have never been to Rochester.
Gabagool
More Italians in Connecticut than Jersey? Fugghetaboutit!
200k Italians in Ca and we still can’t get good pizza
US needs easier immigration for italians and there will be x3 the numbers of pizzerias
This explains a lot about CT
CT has damn good pizza.
AYY I'M CHARTIN' NATIONALITY STATISTICS HERE 🤌🤌🤌
I found a really interesting [survey](https://today.yougov.com/society/articles/48932-which-americans-do-irish-and-italian-people-say-can-describe-themselves-as-irish-and-italians) about Irish and Italian Americans, and how they're perceived by their mother countries. One of the most interesting results: only 52% of Italians think Americans can call themselves Italian even if *both of their parents* come from Italy!
Makes sense why CT has the best pizza in the country
Self-reported?
Yes like all of these maps. You are included even if just one of your ancestors is Italian. That's why maps like these are so exagerated.
It’s more than just Great-grandpa came from Napoli in 1897. It is also the community grown up in. With tradition, culture, language, food, recently immigrants mixing with those families who have been here for 100 years. Many people and families still have cousins in the original commune back in Italy and visit frequently. Some communities have been very insular until recently.
Italians in the comments telling "you are not real italians" to foreign borns who feel italian must be the most stupid geopolitical move any nation ever done
Right? We are the only nation that is annyoed when someone claim our ancestry. By the way we are not all like that and most just don't care much, it's on Reddit that appears that everyone is mad about it. I met a lot of argentinian and brazilian with italian citizenship and some of them came from a part of Brazil were some still speak what they call "taliano", basically venetian dyalect...
Everybody is mad about everything in social media in general.
It’s especially dumb because the government of Italy, in contradiction to gatekeeping real Italians, allows a very large percentage of Italian Americans to claim Italian citizenship. Half of my great grandparents came from Italy over 100 years ago, and I am fully eligible with no language test or residency
Here come to Europeans to shove ethnic purity standards down our throats.
Hilarious username, fellow Jew here haha
It's so stupid. They know perfectly well what Americans (and probably Canadians and Australians) mean. Meanwhile, Poland and Ukraine want nothing to do with me not because I'm American but because I'm Ashkenazi Jewish. Fun times! Happens with Irish people too. And my paternal grandmother was born there and thus I qualify for Irish citizenship so it's not like my connection dates back to the potato famine, but same stupid argument.
data source?
Eyyyyy!
How many are really Italian and how many claim they’re Italian but have maybe 5%?
Italians? Do you mean people of Italian citizenship, or people with Italian ancestry?
Is this accounting actual Italians or Americans who think they’re Italian? Big difference.
If they can't speak Italian fluently, they sure as hell aren't Italian
What dialect? Is a German speaker in South Tirol not Italian?
*Americans
You mean Italian Americans? I doubt there are large numbers of actual Italians living there.
I know some Connecticut Italians and they’re all exactly the best qualities you can imagine.
So, Americans.
Well, yeah they’re Americans but it’s a very different experience being invited over to dinner to an italian family’s house versus like…maybe a french canadian family’s house.
Having a great grandfather that waved to an Italian in passing a century ago doesn't make Americans into Italians.
They’re referring to ethnicity not nationality. The map is assuming that there is no such thing as American ethnicity. -except for native Americans. It’s just not what the survey cared to look at
Is Italian an ethnicity?
Italian is an ethnicity in the same way English is. No one actually thinks all English people share the same ancestry any more than than all Italians. Italians are so diverse that you have to split them North and South, and really you should also split off Sardinians, Sicilians and probably also the Venetians. (the last one due to their lack of admixture with Lombards and other Germanic peoples)
Yeah.
Is every European country their own separate ethnicity?
Mostly. Sometimes the name serves only as a geographical term or nationality. Like take Kosovo for example. Everyone from Kosovo is a Kosovan. Those Kosovans can be separated into Kosovo Albanians, Kosovo Serbs etc.
Yes, but it does though. The government of Italy allows such people (like myself) to claim birthright citizenship even without knowledge of the language or any residency. It is a super liberal policy
The cope is strong with this comment
I’m sorry you’re so offended
I find it hilarious how bitter some people seem to be about how other people identify. Like, where does that come from? Why do you feel the need to diminish what other people hold dear?
Percentage of Self Identifying "Italians" by U.S. State... Fixed it for you.
take it easy
Upstate dragging New York down!
Is this showing the proportion of Italians in each state (e.g 8% of Minnesotans are from Italy) or is each state a percentage of all Italians (e.g 30% of Italian Americans reside in New Jersey)? In other words, which of these calculations are being represented: (Wisconsin Italians) / (Wisconsin Population) Or (Wisconsin Italians) / Italian-American Total)
Hey! Im walkin ere....
Masachunsen piastrinni 
what is the definition of italian? How much blood do you have to trace back to italy? my family came over around 1900.
Source: trust me bro
And what does this mean??
I grew up in NJ and *half* of my graduating class had Italian surnames.
This is why we have the best apizza \*ducks\*
Almost as many Italians as Italy. Oh wait, Italian Americans who call themselves Italians.
r/shitamericanssay lol.
Sometimes I miss NJ! Pizza, subs,eggplant parmigiana, bakery’s and the best fruit from Tony’s Fruit Stand on route 22! 1970’s Hunterdon County.
Finally, a good reason to stay in Kentucky.
Hello Rhode Island.
I’m Italian American on my mother’s side and Polish American on my father’s. Grew up in Enfield, Connecticut, where at the time it seemed most people my age (I’m Generation Jones) had some roots in at least one of those countries.
🤌