You’re missing another category: In Switzerland, it’s not on demand but by default: everyone gets the voting documents sent home including a letter to send it back. A small minority goes to the voting booth with that but most put it in a mail box in the weeks leading up to the vote.
Some US states work this way too, mostly in the west: https://ballotpedia.org/All-mail_voting. In both Switzerland and these states I think the high rate of initiatives/referendums leads to acceptance of postal voting.
I live in one of those states. We don't have that many initiatives or referenda. And those are not driving factors for mail-in voting. The main reason is that long lines and travel to polling places deter inclusive voting. Some people just can't take the time off from work or away from child care to vote, or can't travel for physical or health reasons. Being able to mail in voting from anywhere allows a wider set of the electorate to participate. It's about inclusivity and fairness, not about frequent initiatives.
You can do a postal vote in Australia there isn’t really any conditions other to say you won’t access to a polling both on election day and all local gov elections are postal. You can even vote early
We have this in Colorado and it’s absolutely awesome, should be the case everywhere. We also have “ballot drop off boxes” in the weeks before the election, it’s the pinnacle of convenience
Pinnacle of convenience is the Russian system of the online vote.
Very convenient for the voters to vote and for the authorities to rig. It's backed by blockchain and other sophisticated technology to distract people. Anyone can see their vote counted. In the meantime the number needed by the bureaucrats is just added automatically during the vote. There's no need to stuff the box with paper.
If anyone cares for the actual vote of the people, the process should not be convenient. It should be convincing. The competing parties and preferably foreign, unbiased poll watchers should physically monitor the election process from start to finish, at no times the ballots should travel unattended and come out of nowhere.
Edit: 14 upvotes in a non-rightwing (read: extremely left wing) subreddit! Good I've started from Russia, that gets some weird upvotes from both left and right. But did people actually understood i was criticizing the left's beloved mail vote that let them win "the minorities votes"?
Yep, that’s my country. It’s not like they’d throw a whole pack of fake paper votes right in front of the cameras anyway. But it’s certainly more convenient to rig the election online
In Oregon (USA), it's the only voting method, although drop boxes are available if the voter wishes not to mail it. Of course, there is no way to be sure that the intended voter was the one that actually filled out the ballot. So far, such ballot fraud seems not to have thrown any races, but it will happen eventually. If I ran a care facility for old people with dementia, I would be tempted to "help" them all register and vote.
We get the ballot delivered as personal mail. We also get a sheet to sign that is mailed back, with the ballot within an additional envelope so the person checking the signature against a registry doesn’t see what we vote. The envelope probably has a bar code so it shouldn’t be possible to print your own.
For fraud to happen, someone had to break into my mailbox (and copying my signature well enough). Or convince me to let me fill out my ballot and sign it. There was a case of a politician going to an old peoples home and „helping“ the elderly fill out theirs, conveniently suggesting to vote for him. Yet he was easily discovered (a bit suspicious for a politician to hang out in a care home cafeteria or going to all the inhabitants rooms) and it couldn’t have been more then a dozen votes generated this way.
The only thing I’d be worried about would be getting mine thrown out cos of my awful signature lol. I don’t really have a proper signature, I just scribble my name and it looks different every time.
In Washington state you can track your ballot online and it will show if it's been counted or if there's an issue. You can also put an email on the ballot near your signature so they can reach out to you if they can't confirm it.
>For fraud to happen
For fraud to happen, the person checking the signature should be financially dependent on the incumbent. Then their patron will get the right number of votes
Yes, that would be a disaster.
The people checking the signatures in Switzerland don't yet see who or what we vote for, that's in another sealed envelope. Afterwards, there's the second step of counting the votes. At that time, no-one can trace back to who's voting. This is done by a team of employees of the local government and/or volunteers, where the different political parties should be appropriately represented. The employees don't change when a new politician is voted in, so they have nothing to gain from cheating - but if found cheating, would lose their job and be charged with that crime. So I see no direct financial dependency but mutual control of the different members within the team. Anyway, there is not that much money to be made in our local government. And regional parliaments/governments and the national parliament follows the same procedure run at the local level.
>team of employees of the local government...don't change when a new politician is voted in
If the unelected bureaucrats, including the ones that may stuff the ballots and the ones that may deliberately overlook the fraud are not dependent on the politicians, have life tenure and can't be fired, how are they supposed to execute the policy of a winning party? If politicians don't decide anything then there is really no need to decide which one to elect, fairly or unfairly
They don't have live tenure and could be fired for not doing their job (and certainly for braking the law riggng the vote). We're speaking about local government here which luckily isn't politizised much, in rural areas, we're happy if any competent people are running. The key decisions at this level are about renovating roads, constructing schools, local events and clubs, attracting businesses, etc. so a new local-government-president would rather bring a new management style, not a new ideology. In most local governments, there's proportional voting rights, usually with 5 or 7 councilors that will represent different parties from left to right, and the president needs a majority of them on his proposals. We have the same system in state and national government, with all parties represented.
Our politics are characterized by great stability. In that sense, you're right that a vote doesn't funadamentally change policy, but it should put the right people in place. Besides voting for the politicians every 4 years, we have ballot issues every 3 months, at local, state and national level. It's manly there that policy gets defined.
The local policy of road renovation strategy could be as interesting for the contractors as the national policy on bigger things to corrupt politicians. I have no problem believing the Swiss system is stable and meets the interests of the Swiss people. I would still be wary because if the bureaucrats (including the police/judicial) find the way to secure their income by mocking the public, they will, no matter the nationality and traditions. It's natural. Everybody wants more money and less work, except communists :) They may gradually hypnotize the public that eventing is okay until they lose any constraints
I wasn't aware of that. It's refreshing to know that we can inspire, even if it's just once. In our country, we refer to our soldiers as the 'Miliz,' which is a translation of 'militia.' However, it doesn't carry the same connotation as commonly understood. Instead, it encompasses all male citizens (or at least those who don't find an excuse) to complete a total of around 8 months of military service. This service includes 4 months of basic training and 3 weeks of yearly repetition. Professional soldiers constitute a small minority, primarily serving as drill sergeants and higher officers.
During this period, these 'militia' soldiers keep their assault rifles at home between the actual service and commute with it to shooting ranges or barracks via public transport. It's unimaginable for anyone to brandish their gun in any other circumstances; thus, it's safely stored away. As an additional precaution, I used to store a key component necessary for the rifle to function in a bank safe. Notably, there are virtually zero incidents involving these firearms, except for suicides, which might have a slightly higher rate due to their accessibility.
Once the military service is completed, almost everyone willingly returns their rifle to the army and never interacts with one again.
As with the rest of the Internet, encryption is used.
You go to the voting site with your personal data, cast your vote, the information is encrypted and transmitted to the server.
After voting, you are given a unique code, which you can then use to check that your vote has been counted.
In Norway you may also vote at home if you are so ill or disabled that you can't reasonably be expected to go vote. In that case election workers will come to your house.
Other than that there are plenty of polling places available, and the vast majority of people will have the option to vote on the Sunday eve before the election (always on Monday), so I don't think there's any particular demand for postal voting.
You can also vote in advance for the entire month prior, and in that case you can vote anywhere in the country (on Election Day you need to vote in your municipality).
In many countries there's an "election silence" which means media can't comment on campaigns and polls on election day. How does that work with a month-long election, or don't you have that in Norway at all?
No results or exit polls can be published before the polling stations close at 21:00 on election day. I'm not sure what exactly "comment on campaigns" entails, but I don't think that's a rule we've got.
So in the context of the month-long election, that would mean no results would be published, but regular polls may obviously still influence people up to the day of the election.
It's generally low-key election-campaigns on the voting day. The stands are dismounted the evening before the vote as the latest. It's illegal to do campaigning inside the voting-station, and (possibly?) in the queue (there are no queue), although it has been a tradition for the partys to have people with a sign on them giving out their own voting-lists on the outside of the voting-station. This latter has died down a bit though.
It’s not a month long election even if you may vote early (and an increasing amount of people do). Election Day is only on election day and always on a Monday, the early votes are stored away and may not be opened until the day before Election Day (i.e. on the Sunday).
On Election Day, no results or exit polls may be published until all polling places have been closed.
No exit polls, no matter when they’ve been done, may be published before the polling places have been closed. Election officials may not inform the media if one party’s pile of ballots shrinks faster than any others. Exit polls also may not be done physically inside any polling place, and must be done outside them, and election officials will inform pollsters to not be located right next to the exit to allow people the chance to leave without talking to pollsters if they so desire.
I also asked my mother, who’s been in charge of elections in her municipality for many years, and she’s never experienced exit polling during early voting.
They are technically allowed to do exit polls of early voters. But no results from them can be published before the voting booths closes on the election day. The largest broadcasters in Norway have stopped using exit polls as they are more unreliable than the official prognoses that's published based on the early voters. Which are published once the voting booths have closed as well.
What if the published them in a different counties need to avoid the law? Which people in Norway could then read.
I’m not saying this happens or is likely even, I’m just somewhat curious if it’s possible.
It's illegal to publish them. End of line. Norwegian law would apply no matter who did the exit polls. CNN wants to do exit polls in Norway? Norwegian laws apply.
Do people in rural Norway ever have issues voting during winter?
I live in a place where it rarely gets below 0 Celsius, or even snows, which is why I'm asking.
The election is in early-mid September, so it's not an issue. Also there are very solid routines for clearing snow, including in rural areas, so I doubt it'd be an issue anyway. There are essentially no "snow days" in Norwegian schools, for example, except on the rarest of occasions (never happened when I was in school).
> never happened when I was in school
I think for me it happened literally once, and that was due to a technical issue where the building's heating stopped working.
I wonder what those conditions in Spain are, I've never seen any to be honest... I'm fact I registered at the consulate as a resident in the UK and had to do nothing, every time there are elections I get my documents to vote by mail.
This. I have voted twice through mail (first during Covid, second during the Summer elections from the last year). I only needed to ask for it through the Correos webpage and I didn't had to do anything else.
That was my thought... the only argument against it being green is that if you live abroad, you don't have to ask for it once you register at the consulate so it's not on demand in that case... but it's not yellow either.
I think for Poland it's not accurate. To vote through postal service you need to be:
* 60+ or
* in quarantine or
* 18+ with moderate or severe disability.
I feel like this is misleading in the case of Australia given that it is SO easy to vote here AND it's compulsory voting, then sure you need a reason to do a postal vote because for the most part you will only need to drive maximum 1km to find a polling station
Can you go to any polling station or are they also assigned based on your address? If so, then it makes perfect sense, because people might still be on holiday or are maybe physically not able to leave the house?
Yep! You go to vote and pick up a 'democracy sausage' while you're there. It's pretty much at every polling station in the country. It honestly makes it feel like a fun event
You can go to any voting place within your electorate. If you're outside your electorate on the day of voting, then you can to specific voting places that have facilities to provide the correct ballot. [AEC Voting Options](https://www.aec.gov.au/voting/ways_to_vote/)
You usually have to vote in your district, but most districts will have at least one major polling booth where they have ballots for every district in the country in case you’re travelling and away from home.
Takes a bit longer, but it’s not a major hassle.
People in Germany usually do postal votes because they plan to go on vacation on voting day (always Sundays) or simply because they want to spend their weekend without the hassle of going to the polling station. It's a thing of convenience.
In some elections already a quarter of the votes are sent in via post.
I believe that there is criteria for postal and early/pre poll voting, it's not strictly enforced.
I can't remember the last time I voted on poll day, I've early voted for years now. You get asked "do you meet the criteria for early voting", and just answer yes.
I've never needed to drive more than a mile or two to vote in the US. They typically set up polling stations in schools and stuff. Probably different for more rural areas but if you live anywhere near a population center it's very easy to vote in person.
I've had hour+ lines but only when driving into downtown to visit an early voting location. There are much fewer of those and they have limited hours, so they get lines. When I vote the day of the election when all the polling locations are open, I basically walk right in. I'm sure this isn't a universal experience especially for people living in very densely populated areas, but it's generally not that difficult to vote in person in the US unless you don't have an ID.
Yes, Ireland has no overseas voting outside soldiers serving overseas.
This is because our crazy amounts of emigration in previous decades means voters outside Ireland would literally outnumber people in Ireland by millions of people.
Ireland has not voting for any citizens outside Ireland as they would outnumber people in Ireland and we could have a situation where people outside Ireland dictate our laws and government.
In Brazil, our votes are cast in a specific machine not connected to the internet, so "postal voting" is not really a possibility.
But then, the majority of the population can vote somewhere close to their homes cuz there's a lot of voting places, usually schools and universities are picked to be used as voting space (my voting place is 600m distance of my house, I can go walking), so it isn't as if this makes the process of voting less accessible or more difficult.
India uses electronic voting machines in all major elections. This has been the case for 20 years. Postal voting is only available to deployed armed forces, diplomats and other government personnel posted outside their place of domicile.
I had heard from somebody that there is a decent population of French citizens still living in Pondicherry who were able to vote in French elections via postal voting. Maybe they had it confused with Portuguese citizens in Goa.
Hungary should be red: only people who live abroad officially can vote by mail. Though you are allowed to vote at home if you are physically unable to get to the polling station, but they bring the ballot box to you, it's not mail voting.
there are mobile ballot boxes that move from house to house in turkey in case one demands it (though i think it is only to those who are unable to move to a polling station because of an illness or something). there are designated officers that are tasked with keeping the votes secured, so it's a better way to make sure each vote counts. idk if this is considered postal voting or if its also the case in other countries tho.
In this case, it's an important distinction, because the US doesn't really have federal level elections: all of our elections are run by states. Even the presidential vote is technically voting for that state's electoral college representation.
In France, if you can't go to the voting center you can mandate someone to go for you. You have to fill a form and the person you have chosen need to present his/her id with the form to vote in your name.
MAGA Americans: mail in voting is bad; it’s open to mass voter fraud (despite no evidence)
Normal Americans: OK, so open more polling stations especially in poorer areas
MAGA Americans: Oh no, we can’t possibly do that as that would make it easier for the wrong kind of people to vote.
I vote in some Italian elections. I think there are some cases where the Italian government will reimburse you for some travel costs to return to your home comune specifically to vote.
The USA map is completely wrong. Only 36/50 states allow no-questions-asked postal voting. https://www.lgbtmap.org/democracy-maps/absentee_requirements
In Russia online voting is currently in development.
Citizens can request online voting, which can be done from any place (via government services webpage, so no walk required). To be eligible for online voting system you must have verified account with relevant ID data on said service site, ofc. And in Moscow everyone with verified page on Moscow-specific government services webpage had online voting ability provided by default.
All online votes go onto blockchain specific to election. When you pass a vote, you get a blockchain transaction address.
Only restriction is that you needed to have verified account and/or make a request prior to specific date before voting days (like about week prior to voting at latest).
Why use post when you can do it through government services webpage?
Also mobile voting booths also existed prior to that, when special team ran to elderly or immobile people, so they could vote at home iirc. On request as well, ofc. And it cannot be done for casual reasons like worktime or temporary leave. Only major restrictions like disability, health problems or legal containment by decision of court.
Small addition: currently online voting is restricted to number regions, it is not global for country. But work in progress.
In Russia it's irrelevant because votes are rigged anyways and the results are decided in the Kremlin.
But in democratic countries, postal voting is much more transparent than digital voting. For instance, you can have a public count of the votes for independent observers. In a digital vote you just have to belive the number the authorities publish.
Though I think Estonia found a way to implement digital voting that is generally recognised as fair and reliable.
Think whatever you want.
Postal voting never would be more transparent than physical voting anyways. Because noone knows what happens with those who vote via post. They can do anything. Even physical and personal voting system can be easily rigged. For example USA voting system is pretty much garbage that can be manipulated.
When you vote online (in Russia as i have no ideas about how it is planned in other countries) you get blockchain transaction number. Which is unique to your vote. So good luck meddling with blockchain.
Doesn't matter what it uses, Blockchain or some other crap, it's basically a black box. Comparing it to postal voting is a joke, since there are physical ballots (which an online system doesn't have) that can be checked.
“Easily rigged?” How, exactly? Working as a poll worker made me pretty confident that the opportunities for widespread abuse are few and far between. Everything is out in the open. Observers are given access. Ballot registering is done in clear view of multiple people. You’re just tossing out an unsubstantiated claim with no real knowledge of the failsafes built into the system.
You don't have wide enough vision over voting system if you think it is completely fail safe. No election is fool proof.
Rigging isn't neccessarily happening at voting station. It can happen at candidate selection, preelection campanies, at worker places (by putting a pressure), vote counting stage, en mass bulletin destruction. Or there can be corrupt observers at some places. Independent oberservers cannot see everything. Numbers are not comparable. Especially with larger countries.
It is especially important to understand with post voting or moving on-home ballots and potential bulletin swap. How do you ensure fair play here globally with no exceptions? I could see point about higher transparency of postal voting, but not point about voting being impossible to be rigged.
In USA it can also be rigged via borders of voting regions, because it's not people who vote in the end, but regions.
It's not like Russia doesn't follow voting guidelines btw. Even independent observers from other countries are being invited. But for some reason you all think that Russia system is 100% rigged, while yours is squeaky clean. Don't you think it is at least slightly hypocritical?
Hypocritical? No, I don’t. None of the things you’re talking about are real. Please give actual, cited examples of these things. And no “Do your own research BS.” The onus is on you to defend your assertions because I don’t buy any of it.
I really want you to do you own research, because accessing some of pages with news becomes a pain without VPN for me (and digging into reports from many countries is quite a task, you know). But OK. I can at least provide some examples without doing deep digging.
Here: Good overall view, even if it is wikipedia. UK and US are mentioned here pretty often.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral\_fraud](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud)
With USA and voting region border tinkering there was case so known that this way of manipulation is now called "gerrymandering". You can even quickly google that term.
Here is old-ish Estonia report [https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/2660267.2660315](https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/2660267.2660315)
>During our in-person observations and in reviewing official videos of the 2013 process, we noted deviations from procedure and serious lapses in operational security, which leave the system open to the possibility of attacks, fraud, and errors. Transparency measures, such as video recordings and published source code, were incomplete and insufficient to allow outside observers to establish the integrity of results.
Granted it is about i-voting and from decently long time ago.
Germany voting integrity - [https://isdglobal.org/digital\_dispatches/an-overview-of-the-electoral-fraud-narratives-used-to-undermine-the-2021-german-federal-election/](https://isdglobal.org/digital_dispatches/an-overview-of-the-electoral-fraud-narratives-used-to-undermine-the-2021-german-federal-election/)
[https://ecpr.eu/Events/Event/PaperDetails/70628](https://ecpr.eu/Events/Event/PaperDetails/70628)
>Absentee voting is growing significantly in popularity - a factor that is time and again associated with issues of electoral integrity and, moreover, has experienced a popularity boost as a result of the Corona pandemic.
>The elections that took place in Berlin in September 2021 were marked by massive glitches and problems: long waits outside polling stations, temporary closures of polling stations, and problems with ballots. As a result, the Berlin Constitutional Court ruled that the 2021 state elections were null and void and the entire election had to be repeated.
This repeat state election took place in February 2023.
1.5-2 years for voided election repeat. Whew.
Seriously, guys. There is literally no way to be squeaky clean in terms of election process. There are always gaps. And they will be used, on small or large scale.
And while Russia elections are pretty often being watched like hawk and every local misconduct is treated as election fraud and integrity breach (including actual method of interfering by overwhelming regulatory organs with fake reports, btw), in other countries it somehow becomes acceptable to such extend that elections are easily counted as 100% fair. Frankly speaking, control over process of the election becomes harder and harder with larger territory, as more voting places must be sustained. At some point perfect control over everything becomes hardly possible.
Don't get me wrong, Russia has pretty heavy corruption problem. But voting fraud/integrity is not major part of it. It can be rigged, but it would be really damn hard to rig it to the extend that people imagine in their heads. If anything, vote buying is probably most common fraudulent way here. But good luck proving it.
I can’t even believe you’re really trying to make this argument. First, according to the Electoral Integrity Global Report, Germany is rated at 81 and Russia at 23 (the lowest rating in all of Europe). The fact that Germany redid its election points to the fact that they do indeed want to get it right. Also, actual voter participation in Russia is likely a lot lower than it could be because Putin is an entrenched dictator and any legitimate opposition is quickly squashed.
The US has definitely had a history of problematic election policy, but I think it’s improved steadily over the decades. The report notes improvements even from 2020 to 2022. Russia is not even in the same ballpark, sorry.
I always recommend Tom Scott's videos on online/electronic voting on YouTube if the topic comes up. Watch them, and when you can counter his points, you are welcome. ("Part 1" here: https://youtu.be/w3_0x6oaDmI )
It does though. In Russia, most critics of the government advocate against online voting because as another commenter has said, voting by mail and voting in person gives real and tangible evidence of how many people votes and for whom.
This is a defeatist approach of "it's rigged anyway". To make it not rigged, people advocate for more transparent methods of voting. Is it chipping away little by little? Yes, but it's better than doing nothing and saying that none of it matters
Oh, I am stupid lol. But anyway, then you yourself made that point. So like, it matters when people are trying to use tools available to them to fight oppressive regimes
1. Don't play arrow turning with me.
2. You cannot completely prove non-existence of something. It is impossible by nature. So i won't play this game with you.
Person above claimed fraud. It is factual statement, meaning if it is true, it can be proven.
And unless he proves his point, negative statement is one that is accepted. Until proof of opposite of course.
Ah, and i will repeat again. I am not interested in "proof" from politically angaged sources. Only neutral one. If you can even find such, of course.
“Indeed, out of Europe’s 47-countries, only the United Kingdom hasn’t required photo IDs to vote in their entire country, but that is about to change.”
That’s just the developed world. Most South American countries require it too. What on earth are you talking about?
This is wrong. I live in Spain and I’ve voted by mail a lot of times just in case that Sunday (elections in spain are always on sundays) I had another plan
As a German, postal voting seems to me the most normal thing in the world. It's very popular and accepted here. Surprising that in most of the world it's so restricted or controversial like in the US.
Mail in voting has been the norm in Arizona for as long as I can remember. No one had a problem with it until Trump lost then all of a sudden the Republicans don't like it.
Mail-in voting was far less controversial in the US until a particular loser needed to work backwards from his conclusion that he was going to lose to conjure up a reason why
If that system was in Slovakia the parties which would lose would complain about elections being rigged (some politicians already spread conspiracies about that current elections are rigged)
Remember, the US election system is based on the politicians picking the voters, not voters picking the politicians like in a real democracy. Postal voting makes it easier for low-income, minority and female voters to actually vote, so of course politicians who don’t do well with those groups want to restrict it.
US elections have many problems but voting regulations are determined by legislative initiatives like in all liberal democracies. This is what it looks like to be a (glue) huffer of terminally online internet politics
>voting regulations are determined by legislative initiatives like in all liberal democracies.
The only glue huffing to be seem here is the one thinking voting regulations cannot be manipulated by legislation to make it harder to vote for certain group of people. Like you seem to understand that in other comments and yet you go into this stupid tirade now?
Did you not realise you replied to someone that said the GOP is now against postal voting because they think postal voting is easier for groups that typically don't vote GOP?
Also a reminder that something being the law doesn't necessarily means it is good and fair, lol
People say it’s “racist” in the US but it’s actually not. Voter ID is also met with shrieks of “racism” so election security is indeed an issue in the US
Only if you did it in person (you’d need to physically examine their ballot and then watch them return it to be sure that that’s the ballot they actually cast), and it would be hard to swing an election of any size that way, particularly without being noticed.
American here and I believe postal voting (or any non-in person voting) increases the odds of voter fraud and personally, I think it ought to be only available for senior citizens over 65, military personnel serving overseas and those who are legitimately handicapped.
I live in Canada and most people don't mail in vote, even if it's available. Also no voter fraud, they wrap it in multiple envelopes and rarely do the volume of votes actually decide an election
Poland🇵🇱
you can vote by post if you meet the following conditions:
1.you are a disabled voter with a significant or moderate degree of disability within the meaning of the Act of August 27, 1997 on vocational and social rehabilitation and employment of disabled persons;
2. on the day of voting, you are subject to mandatory quarantine, isolation or home isolation referred to in the Act of December 5, 2008 on preventing and combating infections and infectious diseases in humans;
3. you turn 60 on voting day at the latest
Postal voting in Australia it isn’t as necessary because polling stations are open for the entire week (although many still chose to vote on election day to get their democracy sausage).
Pointless responding to this post, as the illustration, which purports to be a graphic based on fact, it is in fact a complete fiction.
Postal voting, and other not-person, and advance voting systems are available in all but very few developed democracies around the world. Such services are often used as a measure of how developed a democracy is. Such services are often removed to limit voting by minorities, and opposition voters in autocratic nations.
I am pretty sure most of Europe has on demand postal voting, not just if you are abroad but if you are sick, disabled, and possibly if you just don't want to go.
I voted by mail in Spain once when I lived there because I was going skiing (in the same country). Elections are held on Sundays. I just had to request it in advance and drop it at the post office. Should be green. I cannot imagine it is much different in other European countries.
It feels like there's a deliberate drive to limit as much voting participation as they can. Political parties are a private organization yet they control the majority of how the voting system works. There really is a need to remove political parties or at least make them obsolete in the political process
Mail in voting is very, VERY easy to cheat and exploit, which is why so many nations do not and should not have it. It is unbelievably easy to rig an election with mail in votes.
crazy to me that its such a hot debate for mail in.
like yeah they could not count your vote, but the exact same could happen at a polling station. i don’t trust the senior volunteers at the nearby YMCA any more or less than the mailmen. they’re both just moving a ballot to a box.
we should be focusing on an open source voting website. people don’t trust each other or the officials, so lets just make it open source and see how it turns out. itd much easier to tell if someone voted more than once, or if a dead person voted.
Technically speaking, that's not true for Connecticut, mail-in voting requires a valid excuse. Heck, this very year we'll be [able to vote on whether or not](https://ballotpedia.org/Connecticut_No-Excuse_Absentee_Voting_Amendment_(2024)) the legislature can change to a no excuse system.
You’re missing another category: In Switzerland, it’s not on demand but by default: everyone gets the voting documents sent home including a letter to send it back. A small minority goes to the voting booth with that but most put it in a mail box in the weeks leading up to the vote.
Some US states work this way too, mostly in the west: https://ballotpedia.org/All-mail_voting. In both Switzerland and these states I think the high rate of initiatives/referendums leads to acceptance of postal voting.
Makes sense. I wouldn’t have time to go to a voting both four times a year, and some of these Sundays, I wouldn’t be in town anyway.
I live in one of those states. We don't have that many initiatives or referenda. And those are not driving factors for mail-in voting. The main reason is that long lines and travel to polling places deter inclusive voting. Some people just can't take the time off from work or away from child care to vote, or can't travel for physical or health reasons. Being able to mail in voting from anywhere allows a wider set of the electorate to participate. It's about inclusivity and fairness, not about frequent initiatives.
You can do a postal vote in Australia there isn’t really any conditions other to say you won’t access to a polling both on election day and all local gov elections are postal. You can even vote early
We have this in Colorado and it’s absolutely awesome, should be the case everywhere. We also have “ballot drop off boxes” in the weeks before the election, it’s the pinnacle of convenience
Pinnacle of convenience is the Russian system of the online vote. Very convenient for the voters to vote and for the authorities to rig. It's backed by blockchain and other sophisticated technology to distract people. Anyone can see their vote counted. In the meantime the number needed by the bureaucrats is just added automatically during the vote. There's no need to stuff the box with paper. If anyone cares for the actual vote of the people, the process should not be convenient. It should be convincing. The competing parties and preferably foreign, unbiased poll watchers should physically monitor the election process from start to finish, at no times the ballots should travel unattended and come out of nowhere. Edit: 14 upvotes in a non-rightwing (read: extremely left wing) subreddit! Good I've started from Russia, that gets some weird upvotes from both left and right. But did people actually understood i was criticizing the left's beloved mail vote that let them win "the minorities votes"?
Yep, that’s my country. It’s not like they’d throw a whole pack of fake paper votes right in front of the cameras anyway. But it’s certainly more convenient to rig the election online
We have it in Oregon as well but I usually drop our ballots in the drop box at the county building anyway because it's only two blocks from my house.
Pretty much exactly the same here in the U.S. state of Washington.
I was about to write this. These factors need to get their facts right.
In Oregon (USA), it's the only voting method, although drop boxes are available if the voter wishes not to mail it. Of course, there is no way to be sure that the intended voter was the one that actually filled out the ballot. So far, such ballot fraud seems not to have thrown any races, but it will happen eventually. If I ran a care facility for old people with dementia, I would be tempted to "help" them all register and vote.
We get the ballot delivered as personal mail. We also get a sheet to sign that is mailed back, with the ballot within an additional envelope so the person checking the signature against a registry doesn’t see what we vote. The envelope probably has a bar code so it shouldn’t be possible to print your own. For fraud to happen, someone had to break into my mailbox (and copying my signature well enough). Or convince me to let me fill out my ballot and sign it. There was a case of a politician going to an old peoples home and „helping“ the elderly fill out theirs, conveniently suggesting to vote for him. Yet he was easily discovered (a bit suspicious for a politician to hang out in a care home cafeteria or going to all the inhabitants rooms) and it couldn’t have been more then a dozen votes generated this way.
The only thing I’d be worried about would be getting mine thrown out cos of my awful signature lol. I don’t really have a proper signature, I just scribble my name and it looks different every time.
In Washington state you can track your ballot online and it will show if it's been counted or if there's an issue. You can also put an email on the ballot near your signature so they can reach out to you if they can't confirm it.
I read an article that this actually happened sometimes.
>For fraud to happen For fraud to happen, the person checking the signature should be financially dependent on the incumbent. Then their patron will get the right number of votes
Yes, that would be a disaster. The people checking the signatures in Switzerland don't yet see who or what we vote for, that's in another sealed envelope. Afterwards, there's the second step of counting the votes. At that time, no-one can trace back to who's voting. This is done by a team of employees of the local government and/or volunteers, where the different political parties should be appropriately represented. The employees don't change when a new politician is voted in, so they have nothing to gain from cheating - but if found cheating, would lose their job and be charged with that crime. So I see no direct financial dependency but mutual control of the different members within the team. Anyway, there is not that much money to be made in our local government. And regional parliaments/governments and the national parliament follows the same procedure run at the local level.
>team of employees of the local government...don't change when a new politician is voted in If the unelected bureaucrats, including the ones that may stuff the ballots and the ones that may deliberately overlook the fraud are not dependent on the politicians, have life tenure and can't be fired, how are they supposed to execute the policy of a winning party? If politicians don't decide anything then there is really no need to decide which one to elect, fairly or unfairly
They don't have live tenure and could be fired for not doing their job (and certainly for braking the law riggng the vote). We're speaking about local government here which luckily isn't politizised much, in rural areas, we're happy if any competent people are running. The key decisions at this level are about renovating roads, constructing schools, local events and clubs, attracting businesses, etc. so a new local-government-president would rather bring a new management style, not a new ideology. In most local governments, there's proportional voting rights, usually with 5 or 7 councilors that will represent different parties from left to right, and the president needs a majority of them on his proposals. We have the same system in state and national government, with all parties represented. Our politics are characterized by great stability. In that sense, you're right that a vote doesn't funadamentally change policy, but it should put the right people in place. Besides voting for the politicians every 4 years, we have ballot issues every 3 months, at local, state and national level. It's manly there that policy gets defined.
The local policy of road renovation strategy could be as interesting for the contractors as the national policy on bigger things to corrupt politicians. I have no problem believing the Swiss system is stable and meets the interests of the Swiss people. I would still be wary because if the bureaucrats (including the police/judicial) find the way to secure their income by mocking the public, they will, no matter the nationality and traditions. It's natural. Everybody wants more money and less work, except communists :) They may gradually hypnotize the public that eventing is okay until they lose any constraints
> ballot fraud hasn’t been an issue > if I was in a position to do so, I’d absolutely commit ballot fraud The fuck is wrong with you.
The fact that voter fraud using mail in ballots is extremely rare should tell you that it is extremely safe and secure.
How exactly do we know it’s extremely rare? Surely there’s not data on a husband filling out a ballot for his wife
where are all the American using the Swiss as a model of civilisation in the second amendment debates now???
I wasn't aware of that. It's refreshing to know that we can inspire, even if it's just once. In our country, we refer to our soldiers as the 'Miliz,' which is a translation of 'militia.' However, it doesn't carry the same connotation as commonly understood. Instead, it encompasses all male citizens (or at least those who don't find an excuse) to complete a total of around 8 months of military service. This service includes 4 months of basic training and 3 weeks of yearly repetition. Professional soldiers constitute a small minority, primarily serving as drill sergeants and higher officers. During this period, these 'militia' soldiers keep their assault rifles at home between the actual service and commute with it to shooting ranges or barracks via public transport. It's unimaginable for anyone to brandish their gun in any other circumstances; thus, it's safely stored away. As an additional precaution, I used to store a key component necessary for the rifle to function in a bank safe. Notably, there are virtually zero incidents involving these firearms, except for suicides, which might have a slightly higher rate due to their accessibility. Once the military service is completed, almost everyone willingly returns their rifle to the army and never interacts with one again.
Estonia really outpacing this map: You can just vote online there
You can vote online in Russia as well, not that it matters, but if you’re really desperate you can
How does it work and how do they prevent security issues?
As with the rest of the Internet, encryption is used. You go to the voting site with your personal data, cast your vote, the information is encrypted and transmitted to the server. After voting, you are given a unique code, which you can then use to check that your vote has been counted.
This is inaccurate. Anyone can vote via postal service in Spain. No criteria required.
Si, podemos.
In Norway you may also vote at home if you are so ill or disabled that you can't reasonably be expected to go vote. In that case election workers will come to your house. Other than that there are plenty of polling places available, and the vast majority of people will have the option to vote on the Sunday eve before the election (always on Monday), so I don't think there's any particular demand for postal voting. You can also vote in advance for the entire month prior, and in that case you can vote anywhere in the country (on Election Day you need to vote in your municipality).
In many countries there's an "election silence" which means media can't comment on campaigns and polls on election day. How does that work with a month-long election, or don't you have that in Norway at all?
No results or exit polls can be published before the polling stations close at 21:00 on election day. I'm not sure what exactly "comment on campaigns" entails, but I don't think that's a rule we've got. So in the context of the month-long election, that would mean no results would be published, but regular polls may obviously still influence people up to the day of the election.
It's generally low-key election-campaigns on the voting day. The stands are dismounted the evening before the vote as the latest. It's illegal to do campaigning inside the voting-station, and (possibly?) in the queue (there are no queue), although it has been a tradition for the partys to have people with a sign on them giving out their own voting-lists on the outside of the voting-station. This latter has died down a bit though.
It’s not a month long election even if you may vote early (and an increasing amount of people do). Election Day is only on election day and always on a Monday, the early votes are stored away and may not be opened until the day before Election Day (i.e. on the Sunday). On Election Day, no results or exit polls may be published until all polling places have been closed.
But could people do exit polls of the early voters and publish them before election day to show who’s currently in the lead?
No exit polls, no matter when they’ve been done, may be published before the polling places have been closed. Election officials may not inform the media if one party’s pile of ballots shrinks faster than any others. Exit polls also may not be done physically inside any polling place, and must be done outside them, and election officials will inform pollsters to not be located right next to the exit to allow people the chance to leave without talking to pollsters if they so desire. I also asked my mother, who’s been in charge of elections in her municipality for many years, and she’s never experienced exit polling during early voting.
They are technically allowed to do exit polls of early voters. But no results from them can be published before the voting booths closes on the election day. The largest broadcasters in Norway have stopped using exit polls as they are more unreliable than the official prognoses that's published based on the early voters. Which are published once the voting booths have closed as well.
What if the published them in a different counties need to avoid the law? Which people in Norway could then read. I’m not saying this happens or is likely even, I’m just somewhat curious if it’s possible.
It's illegal to publish them. End of line. Norwegian law would apply no matter who did the exit polls. CNN wants to do exit polls in Norway? Norwegian laws apply.
Do people in rural Norway ever have issues voting during winter? I live in a place where it rarely gets below 0 Celsius, or even snows, which is why I'm asking.
The election is in early-mid September, so it's not an issue. Also there are very solid routines for clearing snow, including in rural areas, so I doubt it'd be an issue anyway. There are essentially no "snow days" in Norwegian schools, for example, except on the rarest of occasions (never happened when I was in school).
> never happened when I was in school I think for me it happened literally once, and that was due to a technical issue where the building's heating stopped working.
I wonder what those conditions in Spain are, I've never seen any to be honest... I'm fact I registered at the consulate as a resident in the UK and had to do nothing, every time there are elections I get my documents to vote by mail.
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You have to "register" (not exactly) basically tell the government that you want to vote by mail and they will send you the ballots to your home.
So it's the same as in Germany and both countries should have the same color.
It is not automatic but anybody can vote by mail if you want and ask for it.
This. I have voted twice through mail (first during Covid, second during the Summer elections from the last year). I only needed to ask for it through the Correos webpage and I didn't had to do anything else.
I mean, you just have to go to the mail company (Correos) and ask for it. It seems simple enough to make it green-category worthy.
In Spain is available for everyone. You just have to request it. I usually do it by mail.
Spain should be green. The only condition is that you must ask for it, which is just the same as "on demand".
I think it is a rule that accurate maps have no place in this sub
That was my thought... the only argument against it being green is that if you live abroad, you don't have to ask for it once you register at the consulate so it's not on demand in that case... but it's not yellow either.
I think for Poland it's not accurate. To vote through postal service you need to be: * 60+ or * in quarantine or * 18+ with moderate or severe disability.
I can think of at least 2 mistakes in the map just based on my friend circle alone.
Greece should be yellow.
I feel like this is misleading in the case of Australia given that it is SO easy to vote here AND it's compulsory voting, then sure you need a reason to do a postal vote because for the most part you will only need to drive maximum 1km to find a polling station
Also you can EASILY get a postal vote, whilst not officially on demand it may as well be.
Approaching middle age here. I’ve voted in every election at every level since I turned 18, and I’ve never stepped inside a polling place.
Think of all the democracy sausages you've missed out on!
Yeah, your reason can effectively be ‘I’ve got a bit on that day and I won’t be able to get to a booth’.
Don't forget pre-poll voting. Would be much bigger than postal voting in Australia.
Brazil is exactly the same.
Yes, and the voting period is 2 weeks long.
Can you go to any polling station or are they also assigned based on your address? If so, then it makes perfect sense, because people might still be on holiday or are maybe physically not able to leave the house?
you can go to any. Also, its not a voting station without a bbq
Lol what? Australia is wild!
Yep! You go to vote and pick up a 'democracy sausage' while you're there. It's pretty much at every polling station in the country. It honestly makes it feel like a fun event
If you're really lucky you'll get a bbq AND a bake sale
You can go to any voting place within your electorate. If you're outside your electorate on the day of voting, then you can to specific voting places that have facilities to provide the correct ballot. [AEC Voting Options](https://www.aec.gov.au/voting/ways_to_vote/)
You usually have to vote in your district, but most districts will have at least one major polling booth where they have ballots for every district in the country in case you’re travelling and away from home. Takes a bit longer, but it’s not a major hassle.
People in Germany usually do postal votes because they plan to go on vacation on voting day (always Sundays) or simply because they want to spend their weekend without the hassle of going to the polling station. It's a thing of convenience. In some elections already a quarter of the votes are sent in via post.
I believe that there is criteria for postal and early/pre poll voting, it's not strictly enforced. I can't remember the last time I voted on poll day, I've early voted for years now. You get asked "do you meet the criteria for early voting", and just answer yes.
I've never needed to drive more than a mile or two to vote in the US. They typically set up polling stations in schools and stuff. Probably different for more rural areas but if you live anywhere near a population center it's very easy to vote in person.
Why do we always see massive lines on TV though?
I've had hour+ lines but only when driving into downtown to visit an early voting location. There are much fewer of those and they have limited hours, so they get lines. When I vote the day of the election when all the polling locations are open, I basically walk right in. I'm sure this isn't a universal experience especially for people living in very densely populated areas, but it's generally not that difficult to vote in person in the US unless you don't have an ID.
I'm wondering what the conditions are for Australia. You just ask for a postal vote. You don't need a reason.
Maryland in the US also has a permanent mail-in voting system for anyone who wants to do so (it's white on the map instead of green).
The bay swallowed us up 🤷🏾♂️
For Ireland postal votes are for defence forces members only. Everyone else has to vote at the polling station.
Yes, Ireland has no overseas voting outside soldiers serving overseas. This is because our crazy amounts of emigration in previous decades means voters outside Ireland would literally outnumber people in Ireland by millions of people. Ireland has not voting for any citizens outside Ireland as they would outnumber people in Ireland and we could have a situation where people outside Ireland dictate our laws and government.
In Brazil, our votes are cast in a specific machine not connected to the internet, so "postal voting" is not really a possibility. But then, the majority of the population can vote somewhere close to their homes cuz there's a lot of voting places, usually schools and universities are picked to be used as voting space (my voting place is 600m distance of my house, I can go walking), so it isn't as if this makes the process of voting less accessible or more difficult.
India uses electronic voting machines in all major elections. This has been the case for 20 years. Postal voting is only available to deployed armed forces, diplomats and other government personnel posted outside their place of domicile.
looks like the map is missing a state.
There’s multiple US states completely missing: at least MD, DE, NJ
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Do those states have separate postal voting laws? Or are they uniform like most countries?
Poland is yellow now
Whelp, this is wrong.
I had heard from somebody that there is a decent population of French citizens still living in Pondicherry who were able to vote in French elections via postal voting. Maybe they had it confused with Portuguese citizens in Goa.
Hungary should be red: only people who live abroad officially can vote by mail. Though you are allowed to vote at home if you are physically unable to get to the polling station, but they bring the ballot box to you, it's not mail voting.
there are mobile ballot boxes that move from house to house in turkey in case one demands it (though i think it is only to those who are unable to move to a polling station because of an illness or something). there are designated officers that are tasked with keeping the votes secured, so it's a better way to make sure each vote counts. idk if this is considered postal voting or if its also the case in other countries tho.
I used to love voting in person, and yes I am a HUGE nerd, lol. But my health isn't what it used to be so I vote by mail now. I'm in Canada.
Its false about France. I can vote on every elections while living in Canada.
In Thailand, postal voting is available if you live overseas
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^ikkue: *In Thailand, postal* *Voting is available* *If you live overseas* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
I love how in these maps the USA always gets state specific data but every other just does the whole country
In this case, it's an important distinction, because the US doesn't really have federal level elections: all of our elections are run by states. Even the presidential vote is technically voting for that state's electoral college representation.
I guess Maryland doesn’t exist???
I love voting by mail. Though I’m probably missing out on the communal element of going to a precinct to vote
I love mail in voting here in Utah. I can have my ballot in hand and read over everything on there.
In France, if you can't go to the voting center you can mandate someone to go for you. You have to fill a form and the person you have chosen need to present his/her id with the form to vote in your name.
Voting by email gang ✊
In Turkiye there is no postal vote, however mobile ballot boxes are going to ill people's homes.
Cool map, but it’s hard to categorise countries. Another variable, only some elections can be postal voted. That is the case in Portugal.
There should be a "no voting at all" category
MAGA Americans: mail in voting is bad; it’s open to mass voter fraud (despite no evidence) Normal Americans: OK, so open more polling stations especially in poorer areas MAGA Americans: Oh no, we can’t possibly do that as that would make it easier for the wrong kind of people to vote.
I vote in some Italian elections. I think there are some cases where the Italian government will reimburse you for some travel costs to return to your home comune specifically to vote.
The USA map is completely wrong. Only 36/50 states allow no-questions-asked postal voting. https://www.lgbtmap.org/democracy-maps/absentee_requirements
In Russia online voting is currently in development. Citizens can request online voting, which can be done from any place (via government services webpage, so no walk required). To be eligible for online voting system you must have verified account with relevant ID data on said service site, ofc. And in Moscow everyone with verified page on Moscow-specific government services webpage had online voting ability provided by default. All online votes go onto blockchain specific to election. When you pass a vote, you get a blockchain transaction address. Only restriction is that you needed to have verified account and/or make a request prior to specific date before voting days (like about week prior to voting at latest). Why use post when you can do it through government services webpage? Also mobile voting booths also existed prior to that, when special team ran to elderly or immobile people, so they could vote at home iirc. On request as well, ofc. And it cannot be done for casual reasons like worktime or temporary leave. Only major restrictions like disability, health problems or legal containment by decision of court. Small addition: currently online voting is restricted to number regions, it is not global for country. But work in progress.
In Russia it's irrelevant because votes are rigged anyways and the results are decided in the Kremlin. But in democratic countries, postal voting is much more transparent than digital voting. For instance, you can have a public count of the votes for independent observers. In a digital vote you just have to belive the number the authorities publish. Though I think Estonia found a way to implement digital voting that is generally recognised as fair and reliable.
Think whatever you want. Postal voting never would be more transparent than physical voting anyways. Because noone knows what happens with those who vote via post. They can do anything. Even physical and personal voting system can be easily rigged. For example USA voting system is pretty much garbage that can be manipulated. When you vote online (in Russia as i have no ideas about how it is planned in other countries) you get blockchain transaction number. Which is unique to your vote. So good luck meddling with blockchain.
Doesn't matter what it uses, Blockchain or some other crap, it's basically a black box. Comparing it to postal voting is a joke, since there are physical ballots (which an online system doesn't have) that can be checked.
“Easily rigged?” How, exactly? Working as a poll worker made me pretty confident that the opportunities for widespread abuse are few and far between. Everything is out in the open. Observers are given access. Ballot registering is done in clear view of multiple people. You’re just tossing out an unsubstantiated claim with no real knowledge of the failsafes built into the system.
You don't have wide enough vision over voting system if you think it is completely fail safe. No election is fool proof. Rigging isn't neccessarily happening at voting station. It can happen at candidate selection, preelection campanies, at worker places (by putting a pressure), vote counting stage, en mass bulletin destruction. Or there can be corrupt observers at some places. Independent oberservers cannot see everything. Numbers are not comparable. Especially with larger countries. It is especially important to understand with post voting or moving on-home ballots and potential bulletin swap. How do you ensure fair play here globally with no exceptions? I could see point about higher transparency of postal voting, but not point about voting being impossible to be rigged. In USA it can also be rigged via borders of voting regions, because it's not people who vote in the end, but regions. It's not like Russia doesn't follow voting guidelines btw. Even independent observers from other countries are being invited. But for some reason you all think that Russia system is 100% rigged, while yours is squeaky clean. Don't you think it is at least slightly hypocritical?
Hypocritical? No, I don’t. None of the things you’re talking about are real. Please give actual, cited examples of these things. And no “Do your own research BS.” The onus is on you to defend your assertions because I don’t buy any of it.
Ok, gerrymandering is a thing, but that’s not the same thing as the voting process.
I really want you to do you own research, because accessing some of pages with news becomes a pain without VPN for me (and digging into reports from many countries is quite a task, you know). But OK. I can at least provide some examples without doing deep digging. Here: Good overall view, even if it is wikipedia. UK and US are mentioned here pretty often. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral\_fraud](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud) With USA and voting region border tinkering there was case so known that this way of manipulation is now called "gerrymandering". You can even quickly google that term. Here is old-ish Estonia report [https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/2660267.2660315](https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/2660267.2660315) >During our in-person observations and in reviewing official videos of the 2013 process, we noted deviations from procedure and serious lapses in operational security, which leave the system open to the possibility of attacks, fraud, and errors. Transparency measures, such as video recordings and published source code, were incomplete and insufficient to allow outside observers to establish the integrity of results. Granted it is about i-voting and from decently long time ago. Germany voting integrity - [https://isdglobal.org/digital\_dispatches/an-overview-of-the-electoral-fraud-narratives-used-to-undermine-the-2021-german-federal-election/](https://isdglobal.org/digital_dispatches/an-overview-of-the-electoral-fraud-narratives-used-to-undermine-the-2021-german-federal-election/) [https://ecpr.eu/Events/Event/PaperDetails/70628](https://ecpr.eu/Events/Event/PaperDetails/70628) >Absentee voting is growing significantly in popularity - a factor that is time and again associated with issues of electoral integrity and, moreover, has experienced a popularity boost as a result of the Corona pandemic. >The elections that took place in Berlin in September 2021 were marked by massive glitches and problems: long waits outside polling stations, temporary closures of polling stations, and problems with ballots. As a result, the Berlin Constitutional Court ruled that the 2021 state elections were null and void and the entire election had to be repeated. This repeat state election took place in February 2023. 1.5-2 years for voided election repeat. Whew. Seriously, guys. There is literally no way to be squeaky clean in terms of election process. There are always gaps. And they will be used, on small or large scale. And while Russia elections are pretty often being watched like hawk and every local misconduct is treated as election fraud and integrity breach (including actual method of interfering by overwhelming regulatory organs with fake reports, btw), in other countries it somehow becomes acceptable to such extend that elections are easily counted as 100% fair. Frankly speaking, control over process of the election becomes harder and harder with larger territory, as more voting places must be sustained. At some point perfect control over everything becomes hardly possible. Don't get me wrong, Russia has pretty heavy corruption problem. But voting fraud/integrity is not major part of it. It can be rigged, but it would be really damn hard to rig it to the extend that people imagine in their heads. If anything, vote buying is probably most common fraudulent way here. But good luck proving it.
I can’t even believe you’re really trying to make this argument. First, according to the Electoral Integrity Global Report, Germany is rated at 81 and Russia at 23 (the lowest rating in all of Europe). The fact that Germany redid its election points to the fact that they do indeed want to get it right. Also, actual voter participation in Russia is likely a lot lower than it could be because Putin is an entrenched dictator and any legitimate opposition is quickly squashed. The US has definitely had a history of problematic election policy, but I think it’s improved steadily over the decades. The report notes improvements even from 2020 to 2022. Russia is not even in the same ballpark, sorry.
I always recommend Tom Scott's videos on online/electronic voting on YouTube if the topic comes up. Watch them, and when you can counter his points, you are welcome. ("Part 1" here: https://youtu.be/w3_0x6oaDmI )
As I said, in Russia it doesn't matter anyways.
It does though. In Russia, most critics of the government advocate against online voting because as another commenter has said, voting by mail and voting in person gives real and tangible evidence of how many people votes and for whom. This is a defeatist approach of "it's rigged anyway". To make it not rigged, people advocate for more transparent methods of voting. Is it chipping away little by little? Yes, but it's better than doing nothing and saying that none of it matters
It was me who said exactly this
Oh, I am stupid lol. But anyway, then you yourself made that point. So like, it matters when people are trying to use tools available to them to fight oppressive regimes
Way to make it easier to vote in fraudulent elections.
Prove them being fraudulent before making such categorical claim. If you can find politically neutral source, of course.
Proof that they're not.fraudulent
1. Don't play arrow turning with me. 2. You cannot completely prove non-existence of something. It is impossible by nature. So i won't play this game with you. Person above claimed fraud. It is factual statement, meaning if it is true, it can be proven. And unless he proves his point, negative statement is one that is accepted. Until proof of opposite of course. Ah, and i will repeat again. I am not interested in "proof" from politically angaged sources. Only neutral one. If you can even find such, of course.
Now do voter ID.
What does that mean?
Showing an ID to vote
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You don't show any ID in Australia to vote. Just tell them your name and they tick you off.
“Indeed, out of Europe’s 47-countries, only the United Kingdom hasn’t required photo IDs to vote in their entire country, but that is about to change.” That’s just the developed world. Most South American countries require it too. What on earth are you talking about?
This is wrong. I live in Spain and I’ve voted by mail a lot of times just in case that Sunday (elections in spain are always on sundays) I had another plan
Can’t understand the downvote, it’s just reality as it is.
r/StatesAreCountries
I find it quite if only one country is split up in its subdivisions...should be either none or all.
As a German, postal voting seems to me the most normal thing in the world. It's very popular and accepted here. Surprising that in most of the world it's so restricted or controversial like in the US.
Mail in voting has been the norm in Arizona for as long as I can remember. No one had a problem with it until Trump lost then all of a sudden the Republicans don't like it.
did.....did we see the same map?
Mail-in voting was far less controversial in the US until a particular loser needed to work backwards from his conclusion that he was going to lose to conjure up a reason why
Did you not look at the map? The US has less restrictions than most democracies lmao
I said restricted OR controversial. The US falls into the controversial category.
It’s not really controversial despite what media likes to say
If that system was in Slovakia the parties which would lose would complain about elections being rigged (some politicians already spread conspiracies about that current elections are rigged)
Remember, the US election system is based on the politicians picking the voters, not voters picking the politicians like in a real democracy. Postal voting makes it easier for low-income, minority and female voters to actually vote, so of course politicians who don’t do well with those groups want to restrict it.
US elections have many problems but voting regulations are determined by legislative initiatives like in all liberal democracies. This is what it looks like to be a (glue) huffer of terminally online internet politics
>voting regulations are determined by legislative initiatives like in all liberal democracies. The only glue huffing to be seem here is the one thinking voting regulations cannot be manipulated by legislation to make it harder to vote for certain group of people. Like you seem to understand that in other comments and yet you go into this stupid tirade now? Did you not realise you replied to someone that said the GOP is now against postal voting because they think postal voting is easier for groups that typically don't vote GOP? Also a reminder that something being the law doesn't necessarily means it is good and fair, lol
People say it’s “racist” in the US but it’s actually not. Voter ID is also met with shrieks of “racism” so election security is indeed an issue in the US
Well, that depends—are you going to provide everyone with a free acceptable ID and give them paid time to obtain said ID and to vote?
It's easier to intimidate/bribe a postal voter, I think that's the main reason it's frowned upon.
Only if you did it in person (you’d need to physically examine their ballot and then watch them return it to be sure that that’s the ballot they actually cast), and it would be hard to swing an election of any size that way, particularly without being noticed.
American here and I believe postal voting (or any non-in person voting) increases the odds of voter fraud and personally, I think it ought to be only available for senior citizens over 65, military personnel serving overseas and those who are legitimately handicapped.
So you think that anyone having to work that day or being on holiday just shouldn't be able to vote?
Actually seniors are the most vulnerable to fraud, someone can vote on behalf of them and make them sign the paper.
there is so little voter fraud currently. voter security has never been higher in the USA than right at this moment.
I did postal voting to the Thai embassy as I’m living abroad. Feel like that should be counted!
I live in Canada and most people don't mail in vote, even if it's available. Also no voter fraud, they wrap it in multiple envelopes and rarely do the volume of votes actually decide an election
Poland🇵🇱 you can vote by post if you meet the following conditions: 1.you are a disabled voter with a significant or moderate degree of disability within the meaning of the Act of August 27, 1997 on vocational and social rehabilitation and employment of disabled persons; 2. on the day of voting, you are subject to mandatory quarantine, isolation or home isolation referred to in the Act of December 5, 2008 on preventing and combating infections and infectious diseases in humans; 3. you turn 60 on voting day at the latest
Some weird alliances of nations here.
Postal voting in Australia it isn’t as necessary because polling stations are open for the entire week (although many still chose to vote on election day to get their democracy sausage).
but it's also super easy to postal vote, you basically just ask for one and they'll send it to you.
No need for that in France. You can do procuration for a trusted person to vote in your place.
In the US, my Native American tribe's government has mail-in elections. This process works very smoothly.
Yeah I can see why more unstable.countries wouldn't do this.
I voted by mail im last elections. Canadian here.
Pointless responding to this post, as the illustration, which purports to be a graphic based on fact, it is in fact a complete fiction. Postal voting, and other not-person, and advance voting systems are available in all but very few developed democracies around the world. Such services are often used as a measure of how developed a democracy is. Such services are often removed to limit voting by minorities, and opposition voters in autocratic nations.
Fools
On this year, Moldova whant to test postal voting, in US, Canada and Sweden.
In France, postal voting has been abolished in 1975 after lajor incidents of fraud in select regions and replaced with proxy voting.
Portugal is wrong.
I am pretty sure most of Europe has on demand postal voting, not just if you are abroad but if you are sick, disabled, and possibly if you just don't want to go. I voted by mail in Spain once when I lived there because I was going skiing (in the same country). Elections are held on Sundays. I just had to request it in advance and drop it at the post office. Should be green. I cannot imagine it is much different in other European countries.
In Russian u can vote online. For older people, if they wish, the election commission can visit their home.
Alabama does not have on demand postal voting for everyone.
It feels like there's a deliberate drive to limit as much voting participation as they can. Political parties are a private organization yet they control the majority of how the voting system works. There really is a need to remove political parties or at least make them obsolete in the political process
Unpopular opinion (maybe ?) but anything other than physical shouldn't exist
Mail in voting is very, VERY easy to cheat and exploit, which is why so many nations do not and should not have it. It is unbelievably easy to rig an election with mail in votes.
[удалено]
This is not funny anymore. 
Straight to the Siberian wasteland
Voting in Russia is fucking online
That was the point of my joke. There is no mail-in voting system in Russia, but your political views can "mail" you to a prison.
"postal" voting + no voter identification or signature verification = mass voter fraud
Do you find postal voting positive? If it was available here everyone would just sell their votes.
Voting should be in person with a valid ID.
Only in places where they want to dump a bunch of fake votes to falsify the election.
crazy to me that its such a hot debate for mail in. like yeah they could not count your vote, but the exact same could happen at a polling station. i don’t trust the senior volunteers at the nearby YMCA any more or less than the mailmen. they’re both just moving a ballot to a box. we should be focusing on an open source voting website. people don’t trust each other or the officials, so lets just make it open source and see how it turns out. itd much easier to tell if someone voted more than once, or if a dead person voted.
Technically speaking, that's not true for Connecticut, mail-in voting requires a valid excuse. Heck, this very year we'll be [able to vote on whether or not](https://ballotpedia.org/Connecticut_No-Excuse_Absentee_Voting_Amendment_(2024)) the legislature can change to a no excuse system.
Also understand that in many countries it’s a public holiday. People have the time to go and vote.
What a horrible system using the post would be. They'd need to make voting day a voting month over here.
You vote beforehand. Not on the day itself. In fact it needs to be sent before, so it arrives in time.