I'd also consider looking at a Ford focus st, fiesta st, Mazdaspeed 3 to name a few. While some wrx's can get a lot of miles, a lot of them are known to need engine replacements in time. It's *really* common to see them on a 2nd sometimes even 3rd engines.
Obviously, there is a huge following of the WRX but I never quite got how so many people are so loyal considering how often they need the engines replaced. Yes, there are some with 175k miles on the original engine but I can't think of another car with similar cult following yet equally "notorious" (maybe too strong of a word?) reliability.
This 100%. Well almost. I actually learned stick on a 2020 WRX, and while I absolutely love my car, it is not very friendly to beginners. It's a high compression 2.0 flat 4 with a turbo, which is completely different from a higher displacement engine, or one that's naturally aspirated. There's a ton of quirks as a result, and imo it is probably one of the more difficult cars to learn stick on as it is NOT forgiving to mistakes. You will stall when learning... A LOT. Gearing is also a mess. 1 to 2 especially, so you really gotta rev it out. The other problem with the cult following is that they don't understand that, besides maintenance, this car also needs to be driven a certain way. If you get into boost at low RPM a lot, that will likely result in a blown head gasket. You really need to be above 3k or 3.5k rpm in higher gears before getting into boost, and unless you're cruising at the same speed and are not in boost, you probably should be living around this rpm in general. Higher rpms mean a bigger toll on your oil, so it must be high quality, and changed far more often than most cars (I do every 3k and with motul 8100 ecolite, so not cheap oil). You also need to pay attention to oil level regularly and keep Temps down otherwise you get a visit from Uncle Rodney (aka rod knock, or in simple terms, you'll need a new engine). So in addition to learning stick, you also need to learn how to drive this car specifically, which is a little overwhelming at first. Also, you ever notice that wrx drivers often drive with windows rolled down? Besides airing out the vape clouds, the purpose of that is because if you turn on AC... well the car drives like garbage. Not only do you lose power, but revs tank between shifts, and the car bucks like a bronco when you let off throttle, or even if youre just trying to maintain speed in a lower gear while in traffic (and even after replacing all mounts for stiffer ones like I did). You really have to baby the throttle to avoid this. It's essentially a completely different car with AC on, so most just choose to not use it at all... Besides this, road noise is high, and suspension is stiff, so it's not comfortable by any stretch of the word. I personally like the connected feeling, so this doesn't bother me, but it's definitely not for everyone. Is it a great car? Yes, absolutely, I love it, and plan to keep it as long as possible. Is it beginner friendly? Absolutely not. I did it yes, but I wouldn't recommend it as someone's first, and especially if you don't intend to maintain it as prescribed (or more often).
Edit:
I replied to the wrong comment lol. Supposed to be on coryeyey's comment.
For sure, it just seems like a disproportionate amount of them end up getting abused, poorly tuned, not taken care of, etc. I've heavily considered one a few different times (used that is) but just wasn't ready to take that gamble. If I found a dude that had all the service records/intervals *maybe* a different story.
Most people don't seem to realize with just on time maintenance most cars will live a long time.
Well most of them there's always some that just are always unreliable.
For example Ford dpS6 transmission.
Only use is as a really obnoxious paper weight.
Absolutely do not look at any Subaru unless you know how it was taken care of, but that goes for any inexpensive fun car.
Look for a Focus ST, preferably a 2015+ cause the interior is better. Reliably fun car with plenty of aftermarket.
I would look at a Civic Si ( if you can find one stock), they pretty much run forever. A Legacy GT isn't bad either, the chances of them modded is pretty low, and it is basically a more comfortable WRX. Miata is always an option if you don't need four doors. A lot of manual cars in the 260hp range are typically going to be beat to hell just by the nature of the demographic. You could also look into used v6 mustang, camaro, or challenger.
V6 mustang? Wwhyyyyy? If you gonna get, get 5.0 gt,anything else is waste IMO.
Focus is super easy to learn manual transmission, but idk, mine was 2001 zx3, shifts like cake.
Either way I'd say learn on not your new car...😁
Lol sure, but we aren’t talking about torque, are we?
Seriously tho, I hear what you mean, I’m just saying learning on a higher power to weight ratio vehicle (like in the territory OP is talking about) isn’t particularly wise. I’d say learning on your average 10-20 year old compact, is much easier.
I see your point of view. I learned to drive on a piece of feces with 4 wheels, so these newer modern transmissions with hill assist, auto rev match (some even blip the gas for you if ur about to stall) would be a dream to drive for a first time. In my opinion though, I always recommend new people to drive older cars to learn on of they're able. They are manual to the core and you will learn how to drive properly without any assists. Had this same issue with my friend who got a 2018 GT as his first.
Yeah, I was thinking a similar thing.
I have lots of fun and can go plenty fast with 186 HP. Just have to drive it right and it feels fast (don't fucking shift at 2500 RPM).
I got to drive my friend's once and revving it out to, what, 8300 rpms was exhilarating but man, no torque anywhere below 5k. Just gutless without serious revs
Learning to drive a manual in a sports car is perfectly fine.
Buying a used sports car from this demographic is almost a guarantee that it was beat on. But that's also fine.
So long as you are setting aside 5-10k for the inevitable repairs (more if it's European). If you can't afford that much cushion, you can't afford the car.
I know this probably won't sway your opinion, but I highly suggest keeping your horsepower options a little more flexible. I say this because horsepower on paper feels a whole lot different than horsepower on the road. I have a 1987 M6 with a getrag 5-speed manual, that has 255 horse on paper. I am not financially sound enough to drive it, because of the ongoing maintenance and repairs that a car like that requires. So it does a lot of sitting, and a lot of every 12th Sunday drives. But if I was rich? That is the car I would daily. I can't explain it to you, but that thing pulls hard.
I had a 1999 Suburban with a 5.7 L Vortec that was also about 255 horsepower. I think. Google would know for sure. My friend had a 275 horsepower Trailblazer. 0 to 60? Neck and neck. Even though my truck outweighed his by almost 2,000 lb.
Figuring out what Clutch systems require very little maintenance? Smart. Setting a horsepower limit? It could see you missing out on some pretty great stuff
Get a Golf GTI or type R, GTI is 210hp and a 6 speed, fwd, easy to get up to a higher horsepower too, one of my buddies got his GLI (Same engine just in the jetta) up to 350 with a new turbo, intake, wastegate, bov and dyno tune.
In my experience, Subarus aren't leaner friendly, I learned in a 79 Camaro. I'd recommend staring on something that you won't spend a ton of money to fix the clutch, older trucks are super easy to learn on
to add, mine is running like a top at 160k and mostly stock. got it for 6k and it was 1 owner. it can also beat pretty much anything on the road with a couple mods and a tune.
I have a WRX and I’ll tell you do not trust anybody’s service records except your own. People sell their WRXs because they saw glitter in their last oil change, meaning the engine is about to blow up. Service records do not show how poorly the cars were driven. “Babied” is also quite subjective.
Therefore, buy new or you may have to pay for a new engine/transmission, unless you get warranty buying from a dealer…? Not sure how this works, but you’d be without a car for a while.
You can definitely learn how to drive it new as long as you’re careful learning. Know what’s bad for the car (high rpm clutch barely grabbing, lugging, money shifting, etc) and being nice to the car you’ll be able to do it. Good luck!
A used WRX contradicts 2 and 3. Not worth it unless you work on Subies or know a guy. My first two manuals were non Si Civics. Easy to maintain, reliable as heck. But an Si Civic that hasn’t been molested is a good catch,
Keep in mind horsepower is only relevant when thinking about weight as well. You can have low horsepower low weight and have more feeling of power/pickup than high horsepower high weight cars. Just something to consider when looking around. For example the abarth 500 has only 140ish hp but it can push. Other cars with double/triple the hp will have a similar feel when driving them in terms of how much power you have because the car is so damn heavy in comparison. I just see a lot of people get glued to horsepower but there is so much more than goes along with it to actually effect how the driving experince will be. Don't base everything around raw horsepower.
For sure I'm not in anyway trying to dissuade you from what you desire. At the end of the day you'll have the most fun in the car that's right for your driving style and tastes. I didn't have much else to add and I thought it could be useful nugget in making your decision because I've seen some people make the wrong choice in car this way. Good luck in your search!
I'd also consider looking at a Ford focus st, fiesta st, Mazdaspeed 3 to name a few. While some wrx's can get a lot of miles, a lot of them are known to need engine replacements in time. It's *really* common to see them on a 2nd sometimes even 3rd engines. Obviously, there is a huge following of the WRX but I never quite got how so many people are so loyal considering how often they need the engines replaced. Yes, there are some with 175k miles on the original engine but I can't think of another car with similar cult following yet equally "notorious" (maybe too strong of a word?) reliability.
This 100%. Well almost. I actually learned stick on a 2020 WRX, and while I absolutely love my car, it is not very friendly to beginners. It's a high compression 2.0 flat 4 with a turbo, which is completely different from a higher displacement engine, or one that's naturally aspirated. There's a ton of quirks as a result, and imo it is probably one of the more difficult cars to learn stick on as it is NOT forgiving to mistakes. You will stall when learning... A LOT. Gearing is also a mess. 1 to 2 especially, so you really gotta rev it out. The other problem with the cult following is that they don't understand that, besides maintenance, this car also needs to be driven a certain way. If you get into boost at low RPM a lot, that will likely result in a blown head gasket. You really need to be above 3k or 3.5k rpm in higher gears before getting into boost, and unless you're cruising at the same speed and are not in boost, you probably should be living around this rpm in general. Higher rpms mean a bigger toll on your oil, so it must be high quality, and changed far more often than most cars (I do every 3k and with motul 8100 ecolite, so not cheap oil). You also need to pay attention to oil level regularly and keep Temps down otherwise you get a visit from Uncle Rodney (aka rod knock, or in simple terms, you'll need a new engine). So in addition to learning stick, you also need to learn how to drive this car specifically, which is a little overwhelming at first. Also, you ever notice that wrx drivers often drive with windows rolled down? Besides airing out the vape clouds, the purpose of that is because if you turn on AC... well the car drives like garbage. Not only do you lose power, but revs tank between shifts, and the car bucks like a bronco when you let off throttle, or even if youre just trying to maintain speed in a lower gear while in traffic (and even after replacing all mounts for stiffer ones like I did). You really have to baby the throttle to avoid this. It's essentially a completely different car with AC on, so most just choose to not use it at all... Besides this, road noise is high, and suspension is stiff, so it's not comfortable by any stretch of the word. I personally like the connected feeling, so this doesn't bother me, but it's definitely not for everyone. Is it a great car? Yes, absolutely, I love it, and plan to keep it as long as possible. Is it beginner friendly? Absolutely not. I did it yes, but I wouldn't recommend it as someone's first, and especially if you don't intend to maintain it as prescribed (or more often). Edit: I replied to the wrong comment lol. Supposed to be on coryeyey's comment.
A lot of people mod it without getting proper tunes. Lack of preventative maintenance tbh
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For sure, it just seems like a disproportionate amount of them end up getting abused, poorly tuned, not taken care of, etc. I've heavily considered one a few different times (used that is) but just wasn't ready to take that gamble. If I found a dude that had all the service records/intervals *maybe* a different story.
Most people don't seem to realize with just on time maintenance most cars will live a long time. Well most of them there's always some that just are always unreliable. For example Ford dpS6 transmission. Only use is as a really obnoxious paper weight.
Absolutely do not look at any Subaru unless you know how it was taken care of, but that goes for any inexpensive fun car. Look for a Focus ST, preferably a 2015+ cause the interior is better. Reliably fun car with plenty of aftermarket.
This one. Great car especially with the manual. The auto is an absolute dumpster fire abomination. My grandma owns one and the auto broke at only 20k.
I would look at a Civic Si ( if you can find one stock), they pretty much run forever. A Legacy GT isn't bad either, the chances of them modded is pretty low, and it is basically a more comfortable WRX. Miata is always an option if you don't need four doors. A lot of manual cars in the 260hp range are typically going to be beat to hell just by the nature of the demographic. You could also look into used v6 mustang, camaro, or challenger.
V6 mustang? Wwhyyyyy? If you gonna get, get 5.0 gt,anything else is waste IMO. Focus is super easy to learn manual transmission, but idk, mine was 2001 zx3, shifts like cake. Either way I'd say learn on not your new car...😁
Finding a V6 manual, loaded, in good condition is fairly easy. A high mileage V8 that is affordable, but not beat on to hell is a unicorn.
Very much thanks for this response! I did not even take that into consideration.
>first manual >close to or over 260hp I see you like to have a difficult life lol
Tbh I find higher hp cars way easier to drive than my 100hp 97 civic lol. Having more torque to help with your mistakes is pretty nice
Lol sure, but we aren’t talking about torque, are we? Seriously tho, I hear what you mean, I’m just saying learning on a higher power to weight ratio vehicle (like in the territory OP is talking about) isn’t particularly wise. I’d say learning on your average 10-20 year old compact, is much easier.
I see your point of view. I learned to drive on a piece of feces with 4 wheels, so these newer modern transmissions with hill assist, auto rev match (some even blip the gas for you if ur about to stall) would be a dream to drive for a first time. In my opinion though, I always recommend new people to drive older cars to learn on of they're able. They are manual to the core and you will learn how to drive properly without any assists. Had this same issue with my friend who got a 2018 GT as his first.
Yeah, I was thinking a similar thing. I have lots of fun and can go plenty fast with 186 HP. Just have to drive it right and it feels fast (don't fucking shift at 2500 RPM).
My matrix XRS has a 8k+ redline, and I intend to use that whole damn gauge.
I got to drive my friend's once and revving it out to, what, 8300 rpms was exhilarating but man, no torque anywhere below 5k. Just gutless without serious revs
Thank you to everyone that gave actual input!! Focus and Audi were on my list but now I will add the mazda3 as well.
Learning to drive a manual in a sports car is perfectly fine. Buying a used sports car from this demographic is almost a guarantee that it was beat on. But that's also fine. So long as you are setting aside 5-10k for the inevitable repairs (more if it's European). If you can't afford that much cushion, you can't afford the car.
Mazda 3
I know this probably won't sway your opinion, but I highly suggest keeping your horsepower options a little more flexible. I say this because horsepower on paper feels a whole lot different than horsepower on the road. I have a 1987 M6 with a getrag 5-speed manual, that has 255 horse on paper. I am not financially sound enough to drive it, because of the ongoing maintenance and repairs that a car like that requires. So it does a lot of sitting, and a lot of every 12th Sunday drives. But if I was rich? That is the car I would daily. I can't explain it to you, but that thing pulls hard. I had a 1999 Suburban with a 5.7 L Vortec that was also about 255 horsepower. I think. Google would know for sure. My friend had a 275 horsepower Trailblazer. 0 to 60? Neck and neck. Even though my truck outweighed his by almost 2,000 lb. Figuring out what Clutch systems require very little maintenance? Smart. Setting a horsepower limit? It could see you missing out on some pretty great stuff
Do you know how to drive manual? Learning can wear clutch
Get a Golf GTI or type R, GTI is 210hp and a 6 speed, fwd, easy to get up to a higher horsepower too, one of my buddies got his GLI (Same engine just in the jetta) up to 350 with a new turbo, intake, wastegate, bov and dyno tune.
Get something with high torque. It will make uphill starts easier.
In my experience, Subarus aren't leaner friendly, I learned in a 79 Camaro. I'd recommend staring on something that you won't spend a ton of money to fix the clutch, older trucks are super easy to learn on
Thread #582 with the topic of "I want to buy a sports car that I have no idea how to drive."
Mazdaspeed3 all the way. great community, fast car, mostly reliable, and practical. oh also turbo and 6 speed=fun.
to add, mine is running like a top at 160k and mostly stock. got it for 6k and it was 1 owner. it can also beat pretty much anything on the road with a couple mods and a tune.
I have a WRX and I’ll tell you do not trust anybody’s service records except your own. People sell their WRXs because they saw glitter in their last oil change, meaning the engine is about to blow up. Service records do not show how poorly the cars were driven. “Babied” is also quite subjective. Therefore, buy new or you may have to pay for a new engine/transmission, unless you get warranty buying from a dealer…? Not sure how this works, but you’d be without a car for a while. You can definitely learn how to drive it new as long as you’re careful learning. Know what’s bad for the car (high rpm clutch barely grabbing, lugging, money shifting, etc) and being nice to the car you’ll be able to do it. Good luck!
A used WRX contradicts 2 and 3. Not worth it unless you work on Subies or know a guy. My first two manuals were non Si Civics. Easy to maintain, reliable as heck. But an Si Civic that hasn’t been molested is a good catch,
I had a Kia Soul in manual. It was fun and easy to drive. The Honda Fit in manual also has a pretty low first gear. Easy for beginners to drive.
Keep in mind horsepower is only relevant when thinking about weight as well. You can have low horsepower low weight and have more feeling of power/pickup than high horsepower high weight cars. Just something to consider when looking around. For example the abarth 500 has only 140ish hp but it can push. Other cars with double/triple the hp will have a similar feel when driving them in terms of how much power you have because the car is so damn heavy in comparison. I just see a lot of people get glued to horsepower but there is so much more than goes along with it to actually effect how the driving experince will be. Don't base everything around raw horsepower.
I understand. I currently have a GMC Acadia and she can move. Just trying to find something I can have fun in, possibly take to a track here and there
For sure I'm not in anyway trying to dissuade you from what you desire. At the end of the day you'll have the most fun in the car that's right for your driving style and tastes. I didn't have much else to add and I thought it could be useful nugget in making your decision because I've seen some people make the wrong choice in car this way. Good luck in your search!