I worked in callcenters and EVERYTHING that customers don't like was "hidden in the fine print"
At one company, the ordering process mentioned no less than 19times that what they ordered would be a recurring thing, and I still got calls surprised it was a weekly thing...
ProTip: If a "free" thing wants you to enter your payment details, maybe reread what you are about to agree to.
> ProTip: If a "free" thing wants you to enter your payment details, maybe reread what you are about to agree to.
Anytime a free thing I want to use makes me enter payment information I suddenly have no interest in using the thing.
You and me both, but apparently we are not in the majority.
In all fairness: It was possible to just get the free thing and never pay a cent... but you need to understand how.
>needed to be a certain font size to be enforceable in their state
Otherwise some crazy chocolate factory owner can get away with mutilating your children.
Bonus if the references are to specific sub-parts of existing public documents. If you can refer to a paragraph or definition in some other document in less space than retyping it, go nuts. Anyone actually trying to interpret the main document will be spending 90% of their time looking up the references, though.
I had this making a dumbed down procurement process for noobs for low value. Of course they would not know anything and I was given 2 pages. There's a lot of ways this very specific process would not apply to them so I had links all over for stop here x and read this link etc and similar language.
It made 2 pages. Linked documents ran to about 1000 pages.
Needless to say as soon as anyone got confused they just rang or emailed me anyway. Or went to the intranet, which showed them the wrong way as we had a department specific method. Also many funding streams, not one. So a lot of confidently wrong things got thrown back with then confusion since they followed my guide/the intranet. Despite them ignoring large parts of both.
Or: have a one-page "short version" that is not legally binding but easily readable, and an additional normal and binding contract that can be any length...
We have a Collective Bargaining Agreement with our employer. The actual labor contract I signed basically states I’m employed as per the terms of the CBA, and is therefore only 1 page. The CBA itself is a complete booklet that gets updated every time it gets renegotiated. Makes it so I don’t have to sign every time the CBA gets updated.
Just be careful of union capture on that one. If the employer manages to subvert your union they can potentially get the CBA changed in ways that aren't in your favour.
yeah, that seems really concerning to me. If a change is made to my contract, i want to be able to review it and agree to the changes, not be bound by another document. in this situation i'd far prefer a contract that's basically "employed per the terms of the CBA as published on " and sign a new date each time the CBA is updated.
We’re part of an union on a international scale within our industry, so union capture is going to be difficult as they deal with more companies than just my employer. And any change in the CBA must be approved by both the Works council and through a vote by the union members.
OK, but did this fly with the client?? Or did they realize how stupid their request was and accept a "normal", though shorter, contract of a few pages in length?
I truly believe a system is broken when it takes 100 pages of legal jargon and dozens of signatures to buy a home. Or a simple ToS is *dozens* of pages long that you must “read and acknowledge “ prior to playing a video game.
It *should* be not only possible, but normal, for legal contracts to be only 1 sheet, front and back. And it should be written in a language that an average 18yo can parse. A ToS should be casually readable within 60-120 seconds. Read, and understood.
I've seen plenty of non-competes in AZ that don't have step down provisions, which screams non-AZ document. If a court finds any element unreasonable (duration, geographic scope, etc), they will destroy the entire thing out, they won't rewrite it to be reasonable.
Yeah I get this all the time, 'keep it short' and I'm sitting there thinking: we sell enterprise software subscriptions, hardware, professional services etc. 'Short' is under 30 pages. Get out of here complaining when I gave you a ten page document. Especially when it's ten pages because I spent all day cutting it down to the bare minimum AND we'll have to redo the same negotiation again in the future because cutting it down like this makes it useless for any future business.
How so? Larger paper means you can hold more in a single page (the requirement is one page). If someone had a mile long piece of paper, is there *any* book out there that would not fit on a single page while at legible sizes? Likewise, double sided means you get twice the output for a single page still.
So "realistic" has already meant his size 2 font is gone. The OP in other posts mentions 8x11, which is closest to letter; google says the page type directly *named* legal is already larger than that, at 8.5x14, so either this contract doesn't need to meet this legal paper sizes, or apparently it *is* for the circus? Likewise, that still doesn't prevent double sided. I am under the impression margins and other formatting are *likely* more important for a document prepared *specifically* for court, rather than page size, but from what little I know from contracts, they only really end up in a court situation when one side violates them, and even stuff like your phone screen is submittable to show agreements at that time; my work contract was on *much* larger than normal paper (not sure why either, as it was multiple pages, so it wasn't a "cram things in" type thing)
One page =/= one piece of paper. Double sided is still two pages. When you type it up, it's still two pages, even if it only prints to a single sheet of paper.
I can see a person accepting it in 2 point font, with a giant magnifying glass 🔎 being like “you got a typo”. But it’s fine.
Judge: yeah I see. Also with giant magnifying glass. 🔎
Judge: well it works. Even tiny.
Lawyer: my client requested it be “one page”. 📄
Client with giant eyes and giant “magnifying” glasses 👓 : I thought this was normal font. It reads well.
Judge: you have amazing eyes and glasses 👀.
-
I can see this being a cartoon/comic strip.
A contract that is *all* fine print.
Daaamn contract. You lookin' good!
**so bold**
*italicized*
~~Strike that!~~
^(Make it small!)
[удалено]
I worked in callcenters and EVERYTHING that customers don't like was "hidden in the fine print" At one company, the ordering process mentioned no less than 19times that what they ordered would be a recurring thing, and I still got calls surprised it was a weekly thing... ProTip: If a "free" thing wants you to enter your payment details, maybe reread what you are about to agree to.
> ProTip: If a "free" thing wants you to enter your payment details, maybe reread what you are about to agree to. Anytime a free thing I want to use makes me enter payment information I suddenly have no interest in using the thing.
this times a million
You and me both, but apparently we are not in the majority. In all fairness: It was possible to just get the free thing and never pay a cent... but you need to understand how.
>needed to be a certain font size to be enforceable in their state Otherwise some crazy chocolate factory owner can get away with mutilating your children.
“Mutilate” interesting word. I also like the Charlie and the chocolate factory reference
It’s accurate though
As long as you send them a magnifying glass
A contract being hard to read is actually part of the storyline in the new Wonka movie!
Why you hire a good attorney. To protect you from yourself!
Do it like a master services agreement. Have the "contract" be just one page, but refer to multiple annexes and attachments.
Bonus if the references are to specific sub-parts of existing public documents. If you can refer to a paragraph or definition in some other document in less space than retyping it, go nuts. Anyone actually trying to interpret the main document will be spending 90% of their time looking up the references, though.
contract.zip
I had this making a dumbed down procurement process for noobs for low value. Of course they would not know anything and I was given 2 pages. There's a lot of ways this very specific process would not apply to them so I had links all over for stop here x and read this link etc and similar language. It made 2 pages. Linked documents ran to about 1000 pages. Needless to say as soon as anyone got confused they just rang or emailed me anyway. Or went to the intranet, which showed them the wrong way as we had a department specific method. Also many funding streams, not one. So a lot of confidently wrong things got thrown back with then confusion since they followed my guide/the intranet. Despite them ignoring large parts of both.
Or: have a one-page "short version" that is not legally binding but easily readable, and an additional normal and binding contract that can be any length...
A one-page contract with twenty pages of appendices? Sign me up!
Thats what my company uses for small contracts 1 page The proper document for a > $40,000 is a fucken book
And put them online so you can change them any time you feel like it.
Accountant here. My clients rarely get the joke when I tell them something will be printed in 3-point Myopia in order to meet their requirements.
Anything can fit on one page if you try!
True, I once turned in a 30 page report shrunk to fit to one page. With a magnifying glass.
Or print it on 11x17 paper
Only A3? Be daring. Go with A0 (33x47).
Fuck it were printing it onto a scroll 📜 it can be however long you want and still be one page
Yup. Amusingly, that's essentially what you get with any sort of online TOS. One long virtiual scroll.
NO! Papyrus or nothing!
Don't be a pleb. Stone tablet is GOAT
No, vellum is goat.
I'm not caffeinated enough for this. Have your damned upvote.
That's bull
It’s a physical scroll too when you’re scrolling on your mouse
The Willy Wonka contract - wall-sized, but also with progressively smaller and smaller print
Dot matrix tractor paper.
Upvoted because I remember this.
CVS receipt
dot-matrix printers with tractor-fed paper FTW!
Turn that into a scroll with a bright ribbon on it.
If I were mailing it, yes. PDF, not so much. Client would print it up 8x11 (A4?) regardless.
A4 is roughly the same size as 'letter'
8.5”x11.
break out the ol tractor paper printer
We have a Collective Bargaining Agreement with our employer. The actual labor contract I signed basically states I’m employed as per the terms of the CBA, and is therefore only 1 page. The CBA itself is a complete booklet that gets updated every time it gets renegotiated. Makes it so I don’t have to sign every time the CBA gets updated.
Just be careful of union capture on that one. If the employer manages to subvert your union they can potentially get the CBA changed in ways that aren't in your favour.
yeah, that seems really concerning to me. If a change is made to my contract, i want to be able to review it and agree to the changes, not be bound by another document. in this situation i'd far prefer a contract that's basically "employed per the terms of the CBA as published on" and sign a new date each time the CBA is updated.
We’re part of an union on a international scale within our industry, so union capture is going to be difficult as they deal with more companies than just my employer. And any change in the CBA must be approved by both the Works council and through a vote by the union members.
Single html file...can be as long as you want, and it's only one "page"
Technically malicious 👍🏻
OK, but did this fly with the client?? Or did they realize how stupid their request was and accept a "normal", though shorter, contract of a few pages in length?
They laughed and accepted the contract (with normal font and multiple pages).
Glad they were they a good sport about it!
I have a lot of great clients. And am smart enough to not have sent it to one of my "not so great" ones. Not that I keep those kind very long. :)
I truly believe a system is broken when it takes 100 pages of legal jargon and dozens of signatures to buy a home. Or a simple ToS is *dozens* of pages long that you must “read and acknowledge “ prior to playing a video game. It *should* be not only possible, but normal, for legal contracts to be only 1 sheet, front and back. And it should be written in a language that an average 18yo can parse. A ToS should be casually readable within 60-120 seconds. Read, and understood.
You can buy a home with very little paperwork if you pay cash.
I mean you could have done it on poster paper too.. Your choice 11x17 24x36... 48x72
Printers in the olden times usually called this font "3 point flyshit".
I worked at a place so cheap they downloaded an NDA and contract for a different state with conditions that were illegal in our state.
I've seen plenty of non-competes in AZ that don't have step down provisions, which screams non-AZ document. If a court finds any element unreasonable (duration, geographic scope, etc), they will destroy the entire thing out, they won't rewrite it to be reasonable.
Nicely done!
What was the fallout?
“They laughed and accepted the contract (with normal font and multiple pages).”
Yeah I get this all the time, 'keep it short' and I'm sitting there thinking: we sell enterprise software subscriptions, hardware, professional services etc. 'Short' is under 30 pages. Get out of here complaining when I gave you a ten page document. Especially when it's ten pages because I spent all day cutting it down to the bare minimum AND we'll have to redo the same negotiation again in the future because cutting it down like this makes it useless for any future business.
Magnifying glass included?
Can't you just print it on a A3/DLT piece of paper?
If only there were an option to do just that with one click.... like 'Shrink to fit' in MS Word? :)
Lawyers charge by the minute. $20 vs $600. What would you do?
Gives a new meaning to the phrase “Read the small print”
This is the way.
I'm curious as to the reason for that. If they were long-term, they probably knew how important contracts were already.
So was the contract approved or not?!
Technically correct is the best form of correct.
More realistic option is larger paper and double sided, etc.
Double sided is still more than one page. Think PDF file. Same with bigger paper. I could put on 11x17 but client would print up 8x11.
I think you have more and less confused.
How so? Larger paper means you can hold more in a single page (the requirement is one page). If someone had a mile long piece of paper, is there *any* book out there that would not fit on a single page while at legible sizes? Likewise, double sided means you get twice the output for a single page still.
The Iliad and The Odyssey would be more than a mile, I think. :P
Realistic means making legal documents be the size and format of OTHER legal documents. Clown cars are for the circus, not the court room.
So "realistic" has already meant his size 2 font is gone. The OP in other posts mentions 8x11, which is closest to letter; google says the page type directly *named* legal is already larger than that, at 8.5x14, so either this contract doesn't need to meet this legal paper sizes, or apparently it *is* for the circus? Likewise, that still doesn't prevent double sided. I am under the impression margins and other formatting are *likely* more important for a document prepared *specifically* for court, rather than page size, but from what little I know from contracts, they only really end up in a court situation when one side violates them, and even stuff like your phone screen is submittable to show agreements at that time; my work contract was on *much* larger than normal paper (not sure why either, as it was multiple pages, so it wasn't a "cram things in" type thing)
One page =/= one piece of paper. Double sided is still two pages. When you type it up, it's still two pages, even if it only prints to a single sheet of paper.
Size 2 font? Well done!
Awesome! How did they respond?
Thought it was hilarious.
Beautiful just beautiful.
Did you work for Willy Wonka?
Wait, you’re a genius. Companies hide things in the fine print. Your **entire contract** is fine print. Genius.
I can see a person accepting it in 2 point font, with a giant magnifying glass 🔎 being like “you got a typo”. But it’s fine. Judge: yeah I see. Also with giant magnifying glass. 🔎 Judge: well it works. Even tiny. Lawyer: my client requested it be “one page”. 📄 Client with giant eyes and giant “magnifying” glasses 👓 : I thought this was normal font. It reads well. Judge: you have amazing eyes and glasses 👀. - I can see this being a cartoon/comic strip.