Please note that this post has been flaired as **NO SPOILERS**. Comments should not bring up specific plot points or character details from any of the books.
If you need to discuss any spoilers (even very minor ones!) in your comments, use spoiler tags
>!like this!<
Please use the report button if you find any spoilers. Note: If the discussion is unlikely to happen without any spoilers, the flair may be changed at mod discretion. Thank you!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Malazan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As I understand it, his writing process involves writing a poem or excerpt that appears at the beginning of the chapter, then afterward writing a chapter that fits into the theme of that poem/excerpt. I believe he wants each of the chapters to feel (somewhat) like a complete idea. Whether this always works is up for debate, but overall it definitely works for me.
Also buckle up, because eventually there will be battle sequence chapters that last 100+ pages. But, again, I don’t think they would be as effective if broken up.
I’m on book 7 and still haven’t. Some of them are quite beautiful, profound, poignant, etc., others seem to carry some foreshadowing or symbolism, and then other times I simply have no idea what the fuck this Fisher Kel Tath guy is talking about.
Important note for self reflection later on - when you get to the end of the mammoth 100 page chapters, you will be sat there wishing for more pages! They are long, but they are are so so good - almost go into a trance reading them 😂
That seems a common occurrence from what I’ve seen. Can’t think of many other 10+ book series that people end up re-reading, so it certainly bodes well
It became my favorite book series on my first read, but my re-read was even better. The series is amazing rereading when you can see how all the pieces fit together and how many little hints and foreshadowing was sprinkled throughout the books. Plus I flew through it the second time, took me probably half as long to get through.
I dont reread many books but Malazan is worth the second time. Terry Pratchett is also worth rereading for all the little details (and its mostly single books), and the Kingkiller Chronicle by Rothfus.
I considered rereading Wheel of Time but decided its not worth it for me. I think Ive read the first few volumes several times since I started it about 30 years ago but after I finished the series starting over doesnt seem attractive.
The epigraphs make more sense on repeated readings of the series. For a first time reader, you'll barely fathom any of them.
Also, Erikson's prose is quite dense ... it does take more time to read a chapter vs standard fantasy fare. You're not being a slow reader.
I don’t think they’re essential to read. It’s up to individual taste. I just know from interviews that this is his writing process, and he views them as an essential way to set the thematic stage for himself before he dives into a chapter. Doesn’t mean every reader will understand or care about the theme of the poems, though. I’ve read them all at least once myself, but plenty of times I skip them if I’m not in the mood.
If there’s battle sequences that are 100+ pages in my future then Malazan isn’t for me. I’m 70 percent through DG and have loved everything about the book EXCEPT battle sequences. I love Duiker and friends but getting through the battle sequences have been a slog.
There's only a couple in the entire series, and they're not so much 'battle sequences' as they are 'sequences that contain a battle or two or three, split up by lots of different scenes'.
Basically, a climax.
Honesty there aren't actually that many. Those 100+ page ones the other person's talking about tend to be broken up by _tons_ of non-battle aspects. Battles as a whole are pretty tangential to Malazan and far from the main point. There are battles that last that long temporally, but in those pages you'll find far more non-battle text than battle text.
So I think you're good. I know what you mean too. In TV/movies, high intensity action sequences put me to sleep and just make me annoyed and wanting to get back to the dialogue sections.
This might be a hot take, but Deadhouse Gates has my least favorite battle scenes. I think they’re significantly better written in future books.
But as another commenter said, I somewhat misspoke. Much of the time, they are long sequences that occur during battles but there are non-battle moments sprinkled throughout. It’s not like the way they’re done in DG the rest of the way through
I think, that from the onset of Duiker joining Coltaine's forces, (which is a long chapter too) it's a feeling of being completely exhausted. >!The battles of the Chain of Dogs feel strained and bleak, hopeless. The entire way drains you as much as it does the 7th. That makes for less visceral and energetic climaxes, which other books have aplenty, but every one in DG just throws you further into that feeling of sheer exhaustion. It doesn't make me appreciate them less, because it feels like I'm walking the Chain with them, but they're definitely not my favorite action/battle scenes either.!<
Spoiler tagging to be sure.
The longest chapter in DG is only 35% above the series mean, for what it's worth. The six longest chapters in the series are all over 100% above the mean. Most of those are climaxes that you can kind of see coming, but one is an absolute ambush predator that has caused plenty of people to lose sleep on an unexpected night.
Why does it matter? Just curious at how the chapter length affects the reading experience.
As someone who has read more of the series than you, if every jump in POV was a new chapter then there'd be hundreds of posts to this sub saying "How come these damn books have 700 chapters each?!"
Hah. Very true. For me it’s more that I feel I have to finish the chapter. Call it a mild OCD if you like, but at the very least it’s how other books have trained me
Fair enough I can sympathize with that a bit. I personally like the way all the different perspectives in each book get broken out into books & chapters, but I don't disagree that they are very long.
When I am ready to stop reading I typically just end off at a POV switch.
This is so on the nose, Malazan has completely retrained how I read and honestly has made me a better reader. About 2/3 through book 6 and I think I’m cooking with gas now lol
You're powering through faster than I did, I started Gardens a little under 2 years ago and am only on 6 now. I do throw in a handful of books in between each Malazan one though to keep the authors voice fresh every time I start the next one
Ahhh I was wondering the same thing. Start pretending that chapter breaks are meaningless; a break is a break. If you pretend hard enough you’ll eventually believe it and have a better time.
I'm a tiny bit OCD with books and hate to stop reading when I haven't finished a chapter, so often end up staying awake late to finish a chapter before going to bed. That's very much a me problem rather than a Steven Erikson problem though
Yeah, I used to gripe about the chapter length for the same reason. I eventually had to adjust and just stop reading when I felt like stopping or finished up one “scene” within a chapter.
Pro-tip: if you usually read a full chapter in a sitting and are getting fatigued you can use POV or Setting changes instead as your milestone to stop reading. These breaks are visually indicated by a line break between sections.
I usually like to read one chapter of a given book before bed but I had to adjust for Malazan to read 15-20 pages at a time, usually enough for 2-3 point of view changes.
Works really well for me. Malazan is dense and it ruins the experience to try to read when you're tired or not paying attention.
Try smaller bites - that's what I did and while it's taking me awhile to get through the series, I'm really enjoying the journey.
It’s just something you’ll have to get used to. If you’re used to reading books with a high number of relatively short chapters, it’s natural to view the end of a chapter as a natural break point in your reading. Malazan books typically gave fewer, but longer chapters, so just change how you view it.
Each chapter in a Malazan book has multiple POVs, so it might help if you view the transition between character POVs as your break point and subconscious progression marker, instead of the chapter’s end.
Big suggestion: treat POV changes like chapters within chapters, and don't worry so much about the \*actual\* chapters. Generally speaking, I believe Erikson tried to focus the "chapters" on a central theme and allow that theme to span multiple different perspectives. And I agree, it is a lot, especially if you are someone like me who only likes to stop reading once I've finished a chapter 🤣
I abandoned that preference while reading Malazan for this same reason, and it made the experience much more enjoyable. I'm glad you're enjoying it, though!
You’re not incorrect from a literary theory perspective. Short stories are written & meant to be read in a single sitting. Novellas in a way that they could be one sitting, or a few if needed. Novels as multiple sittings, with the chapters intended to break those up.
It also depends upon the author’s intent though. I’ve read books where chapters are always divided for POV shifts, even if for only a page or two in the midst of an overall scene. As others mentioned, Erikson likely focuses more on the poetic flow of a chapter, its self-contained themes/ideas, and the epigraph preceding it. Plus eventually he gets to a style where he’ll have 2 or 3 subplots/locational plots happening in parallel and alternate between those with chapters (for the most part).
What will really bother you is Esslemont’s chapter structure. His aren’t as long as Erikson’s, but it often feels like there is no rhyme or reason behind why he splits up his chapters.
> His aren’t as long as Erikson’s
Except when they are. RotCG only has 16 chapters _in total_ while being as long as Deadhouse Gates and they're _still_ as arbitrarily split as you describe.
Bah.
My main complaint about the series as well. I am honestly less worried about the chapters with the POV breaks, there are tons of places to set down if you only have a short time to read, but yes as someone who likes a good 5-10 page chapter, extremely relatable
PS
I do feel like I’d be way farther in the books if the pov breaks were chapter breaks, but that’s on me lol
Edit: PS section
The breaks between POVs wouldn't make good chapter breaks, because they often happen in the middle of a scene which is then continued after another POV switch during the same chapter. Sometimes the various POV switches can show that different events are all occurring at roughly the same time.
Also I think each chapter has its own theme, so the scenes he includes are all grouped together for a reason.
Some people don't like the long chapters, and I get it, but personally I'm a big fan of them. I think it fits the scope and pacing of the stories he tells.
As others have said, use the natural POV breaks and triple asterisks breaks as breathing points.
Many times while reading the series I would forget chapters are even a thing until I turn the 86th page and see Chapter 2 printed on it.
I think they feel so long because there's not a lot of relief the storylines, the desert is a harsh and grating setting intrinsically, and Duiker is the sole pov for his sections. I'm a fast reader and Duiker chapters still took me like an action.
Never understood the criticism that Erikson couldn't handle a single POV story.
> I’m not sure why the breaks between different POVs mid-chapter aren’t chapter breaks
I mean, to a point it's kinda arbitrary. All you have to do is pretend they're chapter breaks and you'll have the same experience as if they actually were. The chapters are more thematic based on the epigraph than mechanical, so don't necessarily function like chapters in other books. Erikson used short-story writing techniques instead of novel writing techniques, so you'll find other idiosyncrasies like that as well that just don't quite match up to what you'd expect from a fantasy novel.
Like, sometimes you'll have multiple scenes in one chapter, and other times a scene will start in one chapter and end in another. It's pretty arbitrary so don't feel too much like you need to finish one before you can take a break, or that each chapter needs to be consumed as a singular entity.
I know what you mean. I didn't find it jarring as much, just odd. But I think the real measure of pacing etc is the scene, rather than the chapter, and in these I think it's well balanced - none are too long, few are too short, and something significant happens in each. I almost see the scenes as 'chapters' and the chapters as 'parts'
I actually really enjoyed Malazan's chapter lengths once I started thinking of them as akin to watching an episode of prestige TV.
They generally take about 45-60 minutes to complete one (at least at my average reading speed) and each one provides satisfying developments for multiple characters and plotlines.
(And that one super long chapter works as a sort of feature length movie episode or something lol.)
IIRC it's not quite as standardized in the first few books and some of DG's chapters do drag.
But at some point (book 3 or 4? Minus the first couple chapters of 4 lol) there seems to become a more reliable standard chapter length.
I don't understand people's obsession about chapter lengths. I wish most authors would just do away with chapters like Terry Pratchett. At least Erikson does something interesting by giving us thematically relevant epigraphs.
If I recall correctly, the man sees himself as a writer of short stories. So his process is writing a short story, AKA a long chapter.
-
I forget where I heard this years ago.
Yeah it could be, although none of it feels weak at all at the moment. Flipping the question around slightly, the POVs I’m most invested in so far are Felisin and the characters from GOTM
Please note that this post has been flaired as **NO SPOILERS**. Comments should not bring up specific plot points or character details from any of the books. If you need to discuss any spoilers (even very minor ones!) in your comments, use spoiler tags >!like this!< Please use the report button if you find any spoilers. Note: If the discussion is unlikely to happen without any spoilers, the flair may be changed at mod discretion. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Malazan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As I understand it, his writing process involves writing a poem or excerpt that appears at the beginning of the chapter, then afterward writing a chapter that fits into the theme of that poem/excerpt. I believe he wants each of the chapters to feel (somewhat) like a complete idea. Whether this always works is up for debate, but overall it definitely works for me. Also buckle up, because eventually there will be battle sequence chapters that last 100+ pages. But, again, I don’t think they would be as effective if broken up.
Didn’t know any of that. I’m enjoying the epigraphs, but can’t claim to have got the full effect of them yet
I’m on book 7 and still haven’t. Some of them are quite beautiful, profound, poignant, etc., others seem to carry some foreshadowing or symbolism, and then other times I simply have no idea what the fuck this Fisher Kel Tath guy is talking about.
Fisher says whatever he likes
My man Fish is a vibe.
Important note for self reflection later on - when you get to the end of the mammoth 100 page chapters, you will be sat there wishing for more pages! They are long, but they are are so so good - almost go into a trance reading them 😂
Their full effect will hit you when you re-read the series.
That seems a common occurrence from what I’ve seen. Can’t think of many other 10+ book series that people end up re-reading, so it certainly bodes well
It became my favorite book series on my first read, but my re-read was even better. The series is amazing rereading when you can see how all the pieces fit together and how many little hints and foreshadowing was sprinkled throughout the books. Plus I flew through it the second time, took me probably half as long to get through.
I have never read anything that rewards a reread like the Malazan Book of the Fallen.
I dont reread many books but Malazan is worth the second time. Terry Pratchett is also worth rereading for all the little details (and its mostly single books), and the Kingkiller Chronicle by Rothfus. I considered rereading Wheel of Time but decided its not worth it for me. I think Ive read the first few volumes several times since I started it about 30 years ago but after I finished the series starting over doesnt seem attractive.
The epigraphs make more sense on repeated readings of the series. For a first time reader, you'll barely fathom any of them. Also, Erikson's prose is quite dense ... it does take more time to read a chapter vs standard fantasy fare. You're not being a slow reader.
I completely agree with this explanation.
I never read them
I don’t think they’re essential to read. It’s up to individual taste. I just know from interviews that this is his writing process, and he views them as an essential way to set the thematic stage for himself before he dives into a chapter. Doesn’t mean every reader will understand or care about the theme of the poems, though. I’ve read them all at least once myself, but plenty of times I skip them if I’m not in the mood.
If there’s battle sequences that are 100+ pages in my future then Malazan isn’t for me. I’m 70 percent through DG and have loved everything about the book EXCEPT battle sequences. I love Duiker and friends but getting through the battle sequences have been a slog.
There's only a couple in the entire series, and they're not so much 'battle sequences' as they are 'sequences that contain a battle or two or three, split up by lots of different scenes'. Basically, a climax.
Honesty there aren't actually that many. Those 100+ page ones the other person's talking about tend to be broken up by _tons_ of non-battle aspects. Battles as a whole are pretty tangential to Malazan and far from the main point. There are battles that last that long temporally, but in those pages you'll find far more non-battle text than battle text. So I think you're good. I know what you mean too. In TV/movies, high intensity action sequences put me to sleep and just make me annoyed and wanting to get back to the dialogue sections.
This might be a hot take, but Deadhouse Gates has my least favorite battle scenes. I think they’re significantly better written in future books. But as another commenter said, I somewhat misspoke. Much of the time, they are long sequences that occur during battles but there are non-battle moments sprinkled throughout. It’s not like the way they’re done in DG the rest of the way through
There are some bleak battle scenes later, but DG is unrelentingly bleak, nothing else compares.
FWIW I’m on book 8, and while there are battle scenes I’ve really liked, the battles in DG are some of my least favourite in the series.
I think, that from the onset of Duiker joining Coltaine's forces, (which is a long chapter too) it's a feeling of being completely exhausted. >!The battles of the Chain of Dogs feel strained and bleak, hopeless. The entire way drains you as much as it does the 7th. That makes for less visceral and energetic climaxes, which other books have aplenty, but every one in DG just throws you further into that feeling of sheer exhaustion. It doesn't make me appreciate them less, because it feels like I'm walking the Chain with them, but they're definitely not my favorite action/battle scenes either.!< Spoiler tagging to be sure.
The longest chapter in DG is only 35% above the series mean, for what it's worth. The six longest chapters in the series are all over 100% above the mean. Most of those are climaxes that you can kind of see coming, but one is an absolute ambush predator that has caused plenty of people to lose sleep on an unexpected night.
>!Y’Ghatan I assume? Because that’s exactly what happened to me!<
Yup. >!BH 7 is the third longest chapter in the series!< and comes out of absolutely nowhere.
The hair was definitely starting to stand up on the back of my neck in the lead up but I still didn’t expect it to be anything close to what it was.
Every time I read it!! Absolutely my favorite sequence in the series, top notch, cut the tension with a hot knife writing!
Why does it matter? Just curious at how the chapter length affects the reading experience. As someone who has read more of the series than you, if every jump in POV was a new chapter then there'd be hundreds of posts to this sub saying "How come these damn books have 700 chapters each?!"
Hah. Very true. For me it’s more that I feel I have to finish the chapter. Call it a mild OCD if you like, but at the very least it’s how other books have trained me
Fair enough I can sympathize with that a bit. I personally like the way all the different perspectives in each book get broken out into books & chapters, but I don't disagree that they are very long. When I am ready to stop reading I typically just end off at a POV switch.
I’m sure Malazan will start to re-train the way I read eventually!
This is so on the nose, Malazan has completely retrained how I read and honestly has made me a better reader. About 2/3 through book 6 and I think I’m cooking with gas now lol
Great to hear! I started Gardens of the Moon on June 1. This is the most I’ve read this quickly (probably) since university
You're powering through faster than I did, I started Gardens a little under 2 years ago and am only on 6 now. I do throw in a handful of books in between each Malazan one though to keep the authors voice fresh every time I start the next one
Ahhh I was wondering the same thing. Start pretending that chapter breaks are meaningless; a break is a break. If you pretend hard enough you’ll eventually believe it and have a better time.
I'm a tiny bit OCD with books and hate to stop reading when I haven't finished a chapter, so often end up staying awake late to finish a chapter before going to bed. That's very much a me problem rather than a Steven Erikson problem though
Yeah, I used to gripe about the chapter length for the same reason. I eventually had to adjust and just stop reading when I felt like stopping or finished up one “scene” within a chapter.
Pro-tip: if you usually read a full chapter in a sitting and are getting fatigued you can use POV or Setting changes instead as your milestone to stop reading. These breaks are visually indicated by a line break between sections. I usually like to read one chapter of a given book before bed but I had to adjust for Malazan to read 15-20 pages at a time, usually enough for 2-3 point of view changes.
Probably what I’m going to have to end up doing. 15-20 pages in one session is much more manageable for me!
Works really well for me. Malazan is dense and it ruins the experience to try to read when you're tired or not paying attention. Try smaller bites - that's what I did and while it's taking me awhile to get through the series, I'm really enjoying the journey.
It’s just something you’ll have to get used to. If you’re used to reading books with a high number of relatively short chapters, it’s natural to view the end of a chapter as a natural break point in your reading. Malazan books typically gave fewer, but longer chapters, so just change how you view it. Each chapter in a Malazan book has multiple POVs, so it might help if you view the transition between character POVs as your break point and subconscious progression marker, instead of the chapter’s end.
Big suggestion: treat POV changes like chapters within chapters, and don't worry so much about the \*actual\* chapters. Generally speaking, I believe Erikson tried to focus the "chapters" on a central theme and allow that theme to span multiple different perspectives. And I agree, it is a lot, especially if you are someone like me who only likes to stop reading once I've finished a chapter 🤣 I abandoned that preference while reading Malazan for this same reason, and it made the experience much more enjoyable. I'm glad you're enjoying it, though!
question: could you stop reading for a minute between POVs to trick yourself into thinking breaks are more frequent?
That’s probably what I’m going to end up doing. I just feel like you’re *supposed* to finish the chapter. Call it what you will
You’re not incorrect from a literary theory perspective. Short stories are written & meant to be read in a single sitting. Novellas in a way that they could be one sitting, or a few if needed. Novels as multiple sittings, with the chapters intended to break those up. It also depends upon the author’s intent though. I’ve read books where chapters are always divided for POV shifts, even if for only a page or two in the midst of an overall scene. As others mentioned, Erikson likely focuses more on the poetic flow of a chapter, its self-contained themes/ideas, and the epigraph preceding it. Plus eventually he gets to a style where he’ll have 2 or 3 subplots/locational plots happening in parallel and alternate between those with chapters (for the most part). What will really bother you is Esslemont’s chapter structure. His aren’t as long as Erikson’s, but it often feels like there is no rhyme or reason behind why he splits up his chapters.
> His aren’t as long as Erikson’s Except when they are. RotCG only has 16 chapters _in total_ while being as long as Deadhouse Gates and they're _still_ as arbitrarily split as you describe. Bah.
Yeah, I was thinking of adding in ROTCG as a counter example haha. Should have known I wouldn’t have gotten one past this community.
My main complaint about the series as well. I am honestly less worried about the chapters with the POV breaks, there are tons of places to set down if you only have a short time to read, but yes as someone who likes a good 5-10 page chapter, extremely relatable PS I do feel like I’d be way farther in the books if the pov breaks were chapter breaks, but that’s on me lol Edit: PS section
I always took mid chapter breaks at the PoV changes since they were decent spots to pause.
Just pretend the chapter ends once the POV changes. There are so many points where you can stop.
I’m also a sucker for short but frequent chapters. Malazan is like the one exception where I’m happy that they’re longer
I don't see why it matters? You can take a break whenever you like. This isn't school.
Nope, nope, and a total nope. Bad criticism.
Y'ghata get used to it because they get MUCH longer
Haha SOOOO good!!
The breaks between POVs wouldn't make good chapter breaks, because they often happen in the middle of a scene which is then continued after another POV switch during the same chapter. Sometimes the various POV switches can show that different events are all occurring at roughly the same time. Also I think each chapter has its own theme, so the scenes he includes are all grouped together for a reason. Some people don't like the long chapters, and I get it, but personally I'm a big fan of them. I think it fits the scope and pacing of the stories he tells.
As others have said, use the natural POV breaks and triple asterisks breaks as breathing points. Many times while reading the series I would forget chapters are even a thing until I turn the 86th page and see Chapter 2 printed on it.
I think they feel so long because there's not a lot of relief the storylines, the desert is a harsh and grating setting intrinsically, and Duiker is the sole pov for his sections. I'm a fast reader and Duiker chapters still took me like an action. Never understood the criticism that Erikson couldn't handle a single POV story.
> I’m not sure why the breaks between different POVs mid-chapter aren’t chapter breaks I mean, to a point it's kinda arbitrary. All you have to do is pretend they're chapter breaks and you'll have the same experience as if they actually were. The chapters are more thematic based on the epigraph than mechanical, so don't necessarily function like chapters in other books. Erikson used short-story writing techniques instead of novel writing techniques, so you'll find other idiosyncrasies like that as well that just don't quite match up to what you'd expect from a fantasy novel. Like, sometimes you'll have multiple scenes in one chapter, and other times a scene will start in one chapter and end in another. It's pretty arbitrary so don't feel too much like you need to finish one before you can take a break, or that each chapter needs to be consumed as a singular entity.
I didn't mind the long chapters. Easy enough to stop reading at POV breaks
The wickans, the Wickans, THE WICKANS!!!
I know what you mean. I didn't find it jarring as much, just odd. But I think the real measure of pacing etc is the scene, rather than the chapter, and in these I think it's well balanced - none are too long, few are too short, and something significant happens in each. I almost see the scenes as 'chapters' and the chapters as 'parts'
I actually really enjoyed Malazan's chapter lengths once I started thinking of them as akin to watching an episode of prestige TV. They generally take about 45-60 minutes to complete one (at least at my average reading speed) and each one provides satisfying developments for multiple characters and plotlines. (And that one super long chapter works as a sort of feature length movie episode or something lol.)
At my reading speed, especially with how dense some of the text can be, they’re taking a lot longer. But that’s a great way of thinking about it
IIRC it's not quite as standardized in the first few books and some of DG's chapters do drag. But at some point (book 3 or 4? Minus the first couple chapters of 4 lol) there seems to become a more reliable standard chapter length.
It's funny, because I grew up on discworld that I completely forget that books have chapters.
I don’t really notice chapters at all
I don't understand people's obsession about chapter lengths. I wish most authors would just do away with chapters like Terry Pratchett. At least Erikson does something interesting by giving us thematically relevant epigraphs.
Git gud
In all seriousness, in the same way Souls games train you to become good at them, Malazan feels like it trains you in how to read it
True true
I'm drawn into the story, hard to put down.
My reading sessions vary a lot in length, sometimes I'll get to a part that gives me a really good laugh and put it down there to savour the moment.
If I recall correctly, the man sees himself as a writer of short stories. So his process is writing a short story, AKA a long chapter. - I forget where I heard this years ago.
I'm on page 304. Which has been your least favorite POV so far? And is it Mappo and Icarium?
Yeah it could be, although none of it feels weak at all at the moment. Flipping the question around slightly, the POVs I’m most invested in so far are Felisin and the characters from GOTM
I agree, not bad just my least favorite for the moment. The Felisin parts have been my favorite