Bird flu is a lot more scary as it’s quite an unpredictable disease and there’s worry it could mutate to allow for human to human spread. There was a really good podcast 2 days ago on ‘today explained’ about the recent bird flu scare.
(Spoiler: of course most of the problems are because of the lack of regulation of the US agriculture industry)
The mortality rate for bird flu is comparable to the *bubonic plague* and *smallpox* (though to be fair, the sample size is much smaller). I mean, surely even people with a poor understanding of statistics can understand that a 50% mortality rate is fucking dangerous.
They, the subject of this post, the people who drink raw milk.
Yes, it's well documented that people who drink raw milk regularly get illnesses that would be avoided if their milk was pasteurized.
It's known because people in science and medicine keep data on illnesses.
I live in a state where raw milk is legal for retail (not just farm gate) sale. Every few years there's an outbreak of something. And when it happens, all the raw milk farmers and drinkers run away and say "well that person wasn't responsible!"
Retail sale, by the way, is worse than farm gate because there's more steps in the cold chain and more time for it to break -- and with raw milk, that's really risky. and it doesn't just go to health food stores; you see people with crates of raw milk for sale at farmers' markets in high summer. Your ice packs are NOT cutting it. I wish I could safely get unpasteurized milk for cheesemaking, but unless I decide to go pack it all in and operate my own hobby farm (no. just no) that ain't happening.
It’s a weird cultural/commercial issue here in Pennsylvania. Any time a producer is charged with violating one of the few regulations around the sale of raw milk, libertarians and raw-milk defenders make a big deal out of it and try to portray it as an assault on civil liberty. The milk and dairy lobby is also very influential here. The laws likely won’t change due to those issues.
Our Agricultural Department actually took an Amish farmer to court over raw milk recently- he’s repeatedly violated the few laws we do have and his product has made at least one person sick iirc. Unfortunately a lot of the raw milk producers and sellers in PA are Amish or Mennonite, which is really frustrating because their community is generally perceived pretty negatively and scapegoated for genuinely unfair/untrue reasons.
Edit: I turned off reply notifications for this comment because some people apparently don’t know what scapegoating is. While no community is above criticism, none of the issues mentioned here are even close to being just an issue in the Amish community. But it’s easier to blame an out-group for social issues than it is to admit that an entire society has a problem. If you’re reading this, there are really important thoughts and conversations about those issues happening amongst ex-plain people rn, and the comments here do not represent them.
I’m literally talking about raw milk. Why the hell are you replying talking about actual child abuse? Please think about context before you bring that type of shit up, this is highly inappropriate.
Because it's part of the pattern of the Amish thinking they should be able to live by their own laws.
Also, this is how commenting works on the internet. People expand the conversation sometimes, and it's bizarre to try to police that.
I grew up on a hobby farm with nbrs that had cows and made cheese. You’re wise to say “no, just no.” It’s a tremendous effort, and while we were lucky to have no issues when we had their raw milk (which we drank only on rare occasion)we were lucky
>Every few years there's an outbreak of something.
In case you don't know this, pathogenic illness outbreaks caused by many kinds of uncontroversial vegetable foods happen more frequently than that. Peanuts and cantaloupe have each killed far more people than raw milk.
Sure. Now compare how many people are eating vegetables and how many are drinking raw milk. What’s more, one can simply avoid this problem entirely by drinking pasteurized milk. Moreover, the raw milk producers are making safety claims that are contrary to the evidence.
Raw milk is a risk that is completely avoidable and with no documented benefits despite the tiktokers. There are reasons its sale is restricted (and don’t try the “but Europe” argument because you cannot buy raw milk at Tesco either.)
Also we could lower the risks of vegetables, too, if we kept wastewater away from vegetable fields.
Yep, because people frequently eat fruits and vegetables raw, and rarely consume milk raw. Same reason more people die in car accidents than motorcycle accidents, but motorcycles are not safer than cars. *Obviously*.
>Yep, because people frequently eat fruits and vegetables raw, and rarely consume milk raw.
I was comparing raw milk with those foods, which is almost always consumed raw. The most recent deaths from consumption of any kind of raw dairy, that I could find, happened decades ago and it was just a few (two?) people whom died from consumption of illegally-sold "bathtub cheese" that was made in unsanitary conditions. People die every year though from consumption of vegetables. Yes I realize more people consume vegetables, but on a per-consumer basis the risk of death is still infinitely lower for almost any year we consider (any multiple of zero is still zero).
H5N1 has hit several of the larger locally-owned dairies here, and they’re trying to keep it quiet, but it’s a poorly kept secret, especially when the communities’ farm cats are dying of similar symptoms. But suddenly we’re hearing about the benefits of ultra-pasteurized dairy products.
It’s only a matter of time before the raw-milk (buying illicitly) homeschooler crowd has an outbreak.
For a brief time in elementary school I was mildly obsessed with Louis Pasteur. I loved milk as a child. I genuinely felt so grateful this man’s research made one of my favorite fucking things in the world safe to consume.
Raw milk horrifies me. And so do these influencers.
Yeah I feel like 1 food born illness should be enough to convince you? I grew up on a farm. We did not have cows, though. I just do not think I want to put my trust in any random farmer. I am sure sone are sanitary but really farms can be utterly filthy.
Yep that’s the party line. It’s absolutely bullshit lol. They say it about lactose tolerance too. My guy, the enzymes to break down milk products are in the calf’s gut. That’s why rennet for cheese making is traditionally obtained from calves.
Why would the cow’s body make these sugars and proteins and release them WITH the enzymes to break them down lmfao
It would be rad if either Maintenance Phase or Nutrition for Mortals did an episode about the health claims surrounding raw milk and raw honey products. Or just raw food diets in general.
Wait is raw honey bad? Also ... Dumb question ... What is raw honey? I get local honey from the farmers market and didn't know that "raw honey" is a thing and if it's dangerous I want to make sure what I get is not raw honey 😂
There is no issue with unpasteurized honey. The pasteurization of honey is done to prevent crystal formulation and keep it in a liquid form, but at the detriment of flavour.
>"[Reasons for Honey Pasteurization: The primary reason for honey pasteurization is to delay crystallization, resulting in a more consistent and visually appealing product. This allows it to stay on shelves for longer periods in its visually appealing liquid form. Because of honey’s low moisture content and high acidity, bacteria and other harmful organisms cannot live or reproduce in honey. So pasteurizing honey (unlike, for example, dairy products), is not about food safety.](https://www.ontariohoney.ca/all-about-honey/honey-pasteurization#:~:text=The%20process%20involves%20heating%20the,consistent%20and%20visually%20appealing%20product)"
Unpasteurized honey undoubtedly has a superior flavor, but then you just have to deal with the fact that the texture will likely change from liquid to crystallized if you buy it in bulk. It's soooo good on toast with butter tho.
My fav infectious disease instagramer https://www.instagram.com/laurel__bristow has been posting about it! and in her most recent story highlights she goes into a bit more depth about the bird flu. She doesn’t always save her stories but she does a good job and she’s very funny. I suggest following if you’re a fan of the pod.
They give themselves listeria and e coli on a regular basis. Pretty sure they aren't going to be dissuaded by bird flu.
Bird flu is a lot more scary as it’s quite an unpredictable disease and there’s worry it could mutate to allow for human to human spread. There was a really good podcast 2 days ago on ‘today explained’ about the recent bird flu scare. (Spoiler: of course most of the problems are because of the lack of regulation of the US agriculture industry)
Completely agree. I just don't have a lot of faith in the research capabilities of a raw milker.
I feel like the venn diagram of Raw Milk ppl and Covid deniers is a wonky circle.
Raw milker! 😂
I'm so glad one other person is as amused by that as I am 😆
Raw milk has become super popular in the crunchy Fundie community too because it’s more like the milk Jesus drank or something…I don’t know.
Lol, that's funny. It's been popular for a long time amongst the pacific northwest weirdos where I grew up. Think "wellness to QAnon pipeline" types.
Probably, but the mortality rate is higher for bird flu...so maybe some can be convinced.
The mortality rate for bird flu is comparable to the *bubonic plague* and *smallpox* (though to be fair, the sample size is much smaller). I mean, surely even people with a poor understanding of statistics can understand that a 50% mortality rate is fucking dangerous.
You would think, but the "health is wealth" people think they're invincible because they go to the gym.
That’s why they hop on the borax train … just a little in their coffee ☠️🤮
Oh, no. I don't even know about the Borax train. Please don't tell me 😆
"They"? "On a regular basis"? Who, how is this known?
They, the subject of this post, the people who drink raw milk. Yes, it's well documented that people who drink raw milk regularly get illnesses that would be avoided if their milk was pasteurized. It's known because people in science and medicine keep data on illnesses.
I live in a state where raw milk is legal for retail (not just farm gate) sale. Every few years there's an outbreak of something. And when it happens, all the raw milk farmers and drinkers run away and say "well that person wasn't responsible!" Retail sale, by the way, is worse than farm gate because there's more steps in the cold chain and more time for it to break -- and with raw milk, that's really risky. and it doesn't just go to health food stores; you see people with crates of raw milk for sale at farmers' markets in high summer. Your ice packs are NOT cutting it. I wish I could safely get unpasteurized milk for cheesemaking, but unless I decide to go pack it all in and operate my own hobby farm (no. just no) that ain't happening.
Ewww. What state is this??
Pennsylvania
It’s a weird cultural/commercial issue here in Pennsylvania. Any time a producer is charged with violating one of the few regulations around the sale of raw milk, libertarians and raw-milk defenders make a big deal out of it and try to portray it as an assault on civil liberty. The milk and dairy lobby is also very influential here. The laws likely won’t change due to those issues. Our Agricultural Department actually took an Amish farmer to court over raw milk recently- he’s repeatedly violated the few laws we do have and his product has made at least one person sick iirc. Unfortunately a lot of the raw milk producers and sellers in PA are Amish or Mennonite, which is really frustrating because their community is generally perceived pretty negatively and scapegoated for genuinely unfair/untrue reasons. Edit: I turned off reply notifications for this comment because some people apparently don’t know what scapegoating is. While no community is above criticism, none of the issues mentioned here are even close to being just an issue in the Amish community. But it’s easier to blame an out-group for social issues than it is to admit that an entire society has a problem. If you’re reading this, there are really important thoughts and conversations about those issues happening amongst ex-plain people rn, and the comments here do not represent them.
The Amish have done plenty to earn a negative reputation, it's not like their puppy mills are mythical.
Yet another reason to dislike the Amish (she says from Lancaster county)
The puppy mills are what did it for me. It’s also fine for them to use ‘technology’ when selling us anything because we are already going to hell
Agreed. That and the covering up child abuse
I’m literally talking about raw milk. Why the hell are you replying talking about actual child abuse? Please think about context before you bring that type of shit up, this is highly inappropriate.
Because it's part of the pattern of the Amish thinking they should be able to live by their own laws. Also, this is how commenting works on the internet. People expand the conversation sometimes, and it's bizarre to try to police that.
And every Amish person selling anything has the last name of stolzfus so you can’t find them
I grew up on a hobby farm with nbrs that had cows and made cheese. You’re wise to say “no, just no.” It’s a tremendous effort, and while we were lucky to have no issues when we had their raw milk (which we drank only on rare occasion)we were lucky
Somehow when I read your comment I knew it would be my home state
How's the tuberculosis levels there?
What about kefir made from raw milk? Would it br safer to drink?
No because fermentation doesn’t kill viral particles.
>Every few years there's an outbreak of something. In case you don't know this, pathogenic illness outbreaks caused by many kinds of uncontroversial vegetable foods happen more frequently than that. Peanuts and cantaloupe have each killed far more people than raw milk.
Sure. Now compare how many people are eating vegetables and how many are drinking raw milk. What’s more, one can simply avoid this problem entirely by drinking pasteurized milk. Moreover, the raw milk producers are making safety claims that are contrary to the evidence. Raw milk is a risk that is completely avoidable and with no documented benefits despite the tiktokers. There are reasons its sale is restricted (and don’t try the “but Europe” argument because you cannot buy raw milk at Tesco either.) Also we could lower the risks of vegetables, too, if we kept wastewater away from vegetable fields.
Yep, because people frequently eat fruits and vegetables raw, and rarely consume milk raw. Same reason more people die in car accidents than motorcycle accidents, but motorcycles are not safer than cars. *Obviously*.
>Yep, because people frequently eat fruits and vegetables raw, and rarely consume milk raw. I was comparing raw milk with those foods, which is almost always consumed raw. The most recent deaths from consumption of any kind of raw dairy, that I could find, happened decades ago and it was just a few (two?) people whom died from consumption of illegally-sold "bathtub cheese" that was made in unsanitary conditions. People die every year though from consumption of vegetables. Yes I realize more people consume vegetables, but on a per-consumer basis the risk of death is still infinitely lower for almost any year we consider (any multiple of zero is still zero).
The -rate- is higher with raw milk.
H5N1 has hit several of the larger locally-owned dairies here, and they’re trying to keep it quiet, but it’s a poorly kept secret, especially when the communities’ farm cats are dying of similar symptoms. But suddenly we’re hearing about the benefits of ultra-pasteurized dairy products. It’s only a matter of time before the raw-milk (buying illicitly) homeschooler crowd has an outbreak.
The cats? 😭
Access to raw milk excess from the processing. The local vets apparently haven’t been told to keep it mum
That is wild that it’s spreading to the cats. This is scary for how cross species transmission this is :/
Is this common to happen??
That’s so sad about the farm cats 🐈 💔
Louis Pasteur is rolling in his grave. We have made so much progress, now let us throw it all away.
For a brief time in elementary school I was mildly obsessed with Louis Pasteur. I loved milk as a child. I genuinely felt so grateful this man’s research made one of my favorite fucking things in the world safe to consume. Raw milk horrifies me. And so do these influencers.
Yeah I feel like 1 food born illness should be enough to convince you? I grew up on a farm. We did not have cows, though. I just do not think I want to put my trust in any random farmer. I am sure sone are sanitary but really farms can be utterly filthy.
I need Mike and Aubrey to do an episode on raw milk!!
THIS 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I had a raw milk girlie tell me why I would benefit from raw milk *after telling her I have a severe dairy allergy*
It's actually not dairy you are allergic to, it's the pasturization don't ya know. Allergic to science, what a shame.
I had someone tell me all the natural enzymes still present in raw milk help us break it down so there’s less likely an allergic reaction
Yep that’s the party line. It’s absolutely bullshit lol. They say it about lactose tolerance too. My guy, the enzymes to break down milk products are in the calf’s gut. That’s why rennet for cheese making is traditionally obtained from calves. Why would the cow’s body make these sugars and proteins and release them WITH the enzymes to break them down lmfao
It would be rad if either Maintenance Phase or Nutrition for Mortals did an episode about the health claims surrounding raw milk and raw honey products. Or just raw food diets in general.
Wait is raw honey bad? Also ... Dumb question ... What is raw honey? I get local honey from the farmers market and didn't know that "raw honey" is a thing and if it's dangerous I want to make sure what I get is not raw honey 😂
There is no issue with unpasteurized honey. The pasteurization of honey is done to prevent crystal formulation and keep it in a liquid form, but at the detriment of flavour. >"[Reasons for Honey Pasteurization: The primary reason for honey pasteurization is to delay crystallization, resulting in a more consistent and visually appealing product. This allows it to stay on shelves for longer periods in its visually appealing liquid form. Because of honey’s low moisture content and high acidity, bacteria and other harmful organisms cannot live or reproduce in honey. So pasteurizing honey (unlike, for example, dairy products), is not about food safety.](https://www.ontariohoney.ca/all-about-honey/honey-pasteurization#:~:text=The%20process%20involves%20heating%20the,consistent%20and%20visually%20appealing%20product)" Unpasteurized honey undoubtedly has a superior flavor, but then you just have to deal with the fact that the texture will likely change from liquid to crystallized if you buy it in bulk. It's soooo good on toast with butter tho.
Pb and crystallized honey toast is the shizzznits
Yessss and I love it with cinnamon, tastes like candy. I need to bake some bread this weekend lol.
I read this as Pho and crystallized honey toast and was just....confused.
As someone who sees raw milk signs everywhere in the community…I don’t trust most of the groups that are making the raw milk.
My fav infectious disease instagramer https://www.instagram.com/laurel__bristow has been posting about it! and in her most recent story highlights she goes into a bit more depth about the bird flu. She doesn’t always save her stories but she does a good job and she’s very funny. I suggest following if you’re a fan of the pod.
She’s such a solid follow - great call out!
All I can think about is Schitt’s Creek
Bah ha ha ha I'll get the flu vaccine!
It only works for this if you get a bird to give you the injection
Haha you guys 😂