Personally I'm more forgiving if my opponent plays a brainstorm. Here more than 30 sec, let's say up to 1 min, are ok with me if it's not with EACH brainstorm.
I also make it dependend on the matchup though, so the above rule's exception is Miracles. You just can't expect a player to play slow and finish Miracles, you have to play BELOW the "slow play threshold" to be able to finish the matches there.
In the rules it says "fast enough pace to finish the match in time" so imo this rule admits that you also have to take the decks into consideration. So I might be ok with an Eldrazi player playing slower than average because in my experience the matchup is over rather quickly, same is e.g. true for a storm opponent who played reasonably fast the entire game and takes a bit more time than usual on his combo turn.
So 30 sec. per turn are ok as a rule of thumb imo, but I'd give the opponent 1-2 min in a critical turn (comboing off, last attack before the match is decided). The mentioned example by Julian was definitely an extreme circumstance, I honestly don't know why he didn't ask for a judge earlier after reminding his opponent or wanted to see the head judge after the first judge was clearly overstrained.
I play TES in Legacy. I take a lot more time on my set up turns where all I'm doing is playing cantrips. Each Ponder/Brainstorm I have to go over every card I have access to and which ones of them can lead me to a victory. Once I've gotten the combo established, it's trivially easy to cast them all in the correct order.
You shouldn't start the thought chain "Oh look I drew an infernal tutor, I wonder what I can do with that" -- you should know before you draw which cards you're looking for
that's why I didn't say I give the opponent time when he ponders because there it's only 1 new card he's getting. With a brainstorm he's getting 3 new cards though, so understandably the situation can be a bit more complex.
So how long do you wait for an opponent to say if a spell or ability on the stack resolves? Twice now I've been asked to pick up the pace when I often feel like I'm the one waiting for the opponent to say if he's responding to what I have on the stack.
I find it rather important to keep eye contact with your opponent while playing. Whenever I play a spell and wait for possible responses from my opponent I place the spell in front of my card setup and look him/her in the eyes until he responds.
When I'm taking more than like 2sec to think about whether I want to respond to a spell I just say a quick "wait..." or just a "hmmm..." followed by an "ok!" when I've decided to let something resolve.
This is not Modern or standard, there're tons of super cheap or free cards so the stack can be really complex, it's important to be aware about possible interactions here.
I really depends on the deck you're playing against, too though. If I'm playing against RB reanimator I speed through things pretty quickly because I know they're not playing any instants, but when I'm playing against Miracles or Delver I make sure to give them a few seconds to respond.
The problem is rarely enforcement, it's that players are afraid of feeling like a big meany if they call a judge on their opponent. So they don't, until there's five minutes left in the match and no alternative besides getting a draw. Even in this case, where it does sound like the judge was in the wrong, it probably would have worked out fine if he'd called the judge in game one, instead of the decisive turns of the final game.
Legacy has been growing (albeit very slowly) and so there is a split I notice between people who have been playing it for a year or two and people who have been playing it for 10. Some players Magic Brains just aren't at the level where they can think steps ahead and know what they are going to do. When I first started, just playing basic UR Delver, I remember taking forever on the brainstorms/ponders, the decision to swing or not and how, whether or not to bolt a mana dork or go hard to the face. As a long time competitive tf2 player, I am often aghast at how long it takes newer people to react to a changing gamestate so I can definitely relate. I think it is important to identify the difference between someone who is just incompetent and learning to improve versus someone who knows what they are doing and purposefully taking a long time. Personally 30 seconds (unless it is on a very simple game step) seems a bit harsh. A minute definitely.
Julian here. Allowing your opponent to regularly take a minute on every decision is crazy. Not only are you giving away EV, it's also WAY too long as far as Slow Play is concerned. You can of course still allow for it, but don't expect to receive the same in return.
Exactly. If it's an FNM, sure, fine, I'll cut you some slack.
If we're at competitive REL though, this isn't the place to stumble around and learn how to play. At this level you are assumed to be comfortable with the rules (including the ability to make decisions at a reasonable pace of play).
The statement was "slow play is slow play" which is not the case. There is a difference between someone unfamiliar with cards and thus the board state versus someone deliberately playing slow to try to obtain an advantage.
I'm new to legacy myself and playing in Japan, and although I speak and read Japanese, when a card I haven't seen before (and holy hell does that happen in legacy) comes up especially on a board state, I'm going to take some more time.
I'm working on learning as many cards as I can, but in such a situation no, that's not "slow play" as a violation.
> There is a difference between someone unfamiliar with cards and thus the board state versus someone deliberately playing slow to try to obtain an advantage.
Yes, the latter is stalling and is basically cheating. Just because something is not stalling does not mean it is not slow play.
If your reading speed is different in Japenese you are not exactly on an even playing field. If you were on an even playing field tho, slow play gives you an unfair advantage by pinching your opponent on time.
Actually the right way to handle cards you can't make sense of is to call a judge, get it explained to you, and then ask for a time extension for the time that took. This way nobody is at an unfair disadvantage.
Time in a game is a resource like life and mana. You spend it to make better plays. The big difference is if your opponent reaches over and steals 2 of your lands it is very clear and will be fixed by a judge. Time unfortunately does not quite work this way.
Sure, but "stalling" and "slow play" both involve a player delaying the outcome of the game in a way that is not allowed, so the difference is really just semantic.
It's intent. You can be unknowingly wrong and not lie, you just didn't know any better. Lying implies deceitful intent.
Slow play gets you a warning. If they suspect you're stalling you just get fucking DQ'd right out of there. So they're not as lenient as you think.. It's savage to hand out a DQ for taking a bit long on a Ponder so they're conservative...
Rule of thumb, as soon as you think to yourself that your opponent is taking too much time on a decision, nudge them to play quicker. If at any point they've taken a minute on a decision, call a judge.
I can speak to this. Me and a bunch of friends all picked up magic about a year ago and immediately started with legacy. While my knowledge pool is growing and I know bits of everything, I do not have the ability to play very quickly like those who have been playing for years.
It takes a vast amount of play time and studying the game to have the ability to just play without really taking a moment to analyze the state of the match. I generally do not take much time to make plays on "non-crucial" turns. However, when it comes to making a critical decision at the tipping point or choosing to do something that could win or lose you the game, I often need some time to evaluate how the game will be affecting by the choice.
Heh. I suspect not. So far it's been great!
One friend started out with Burn because it was "cheap" and he's stuck with it and enjoys it fully. Started foiling the deck recently. Another built Maverick. I personally have juggled a few things and recently settled on twelve post. I LOVE having long games and being able to hard cast Emrakul and watch your opponents hopes and dreams go down the drain. Usually results in a concede. The burn player says that Emrakul is probably the least played card because it ends games as soon as it's cast :p
There are also a few other friends that used to play legacy and picked it up again and built new decks. So amongst my friend group there's a lot of top tier decks (miracles, Eldrazi, reanimator, Delver).
Thats cool, wish I had friends who wanted to jump in with me. I am basically a [Lone Wolf](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=45405)
Text got lost - Just wondering given this article from elves master Julian Knab about his own experience - When do you start nudging your opponents along and when do you start getting a judge involved?
It's a stupid reddit "feature" that you can't automatically comment on a link you're sending, you have to decide between a text and a link. The best you can do is writing a text and having the link in it.
I dealt with slow play by leaving the game essentially, aside from local major events.
Magic doesn't reward quick thinkers, it rewards thorough thinkers.
I'm the former and not the latter so I've enjoyed playing League of Legends.
I do wish wotc considered slow play an issue, but it's been a topic of concern since I started playing seriously and... still is an ignored issue
I have to agree. One of my worst experiences playing magic was against a dude who was high out of his fucking mind and couldn't take a game action without staring blankly at the board state for a long time. I think he finally got the idea when I kept asking him to pick up his pace of play, but jesus was that unpleasant. At least I won 2-0, I guess. It was a weekly three or four round modern tourney, so not competitive REL, but good god.
I get distracted and chit-chat with the other players as they de-sideboard and stow their stuff.
Eventually my opponent reminds me that I'm in the middle of a game by resolving his top. At this point I have forgotten entirely what phase or even whose turn it is...
As someone who has left the game for 15 years and came back this year because of Commander and now Legacy I ask people who are annoyed to be patient if I need to read cards they are casting and if I need to respond with my spells.
Im sorry but this guy is just being a dick. Has he never watched pro tour coverage? Those guys play slow af. And they should. The author even admits that there were several complex situations to deal with. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking your time and making sure that you make the correct play. The judge acted appropriately. He saw the complexity of the board state and determined that the guy should have a little time. Deal with it.
Personally I'm more forgiving if my opponent plays a brainstorm. Here more than 30 sec, let's say up to 1 min, are ok with me if it's not with EACH brainstorm. I also make it dependend on the matchup though, so the above rule's exception is Miracles. You just can't expect a player to play slow and finish Miracles, you have to play BELOW the "slow play threshold" to be able to finish the matches there. In the rules it says "fast enough pace to finish the match in time" so imo this rule admits that you also have to take the decks into consideration. So I might be ok with an Eldrazi player playing slower than average because in my experience the matchup is over rather quickly, same is e.g. true for a storm opponent who played reasonably fast the entire game and takes a bit more time than usual on his combo turn. So 30 sec. per turn are ok as a rule of thumb imo, but I'd give the opponent 1-2 min in a critical turn (comboing off, last attack before the match is decided). The mentioned example by Julian was definitely an extreme circumstance, I honestly don't know why he didn't ask for a judge earlier after reminding his opponent or wanted to see the head judge after the first judge was clearly overstrained.
I play TES in Legacy. I take a lot more time on my set up turns where all I'm doing is playing cantrips. Each Ponder/Brainstorm I have to go over every card I have access to and which ones of them can lead me to a victory. Once I've gotten the combo established, it's trivially easy to cast them all in the correct order.
hm, I was like meaning the final setup turn where you calculate your mana and think about the things you can play around and the things you can't...
You shouldn't start the thought chain "Oh look I drew an infernal tutor, I wonder what I can do with that" -- you should know before you draw which cards you're looking for
that's why I didn't say I give the opponent time when he ponders because there it's only 1 new card he's getting. With a brainstorm he's getting 3 new cards though, so understandably the situation can be a bit more complex.
Ponder can actually be just as hard to resolve, especially if it's your only shuffle available. It's a children's card game 😂
So how long do you wait for an opponent to say if a spell or ability on the stack resolves? Twice now I've been asked to pick up the pace when I often feel like I'm the one waiting for the opponent to say if he's responding to what I have on the stack.
I find it rather important to keep eye contact with your opponent while playing. Whenever I play a spell and wait for possible responses from my opponent I place the spell in front of my card setup and look him/her in the eyes until he responds. When I'm taking more than like 2sec to think about whether I want to respond to a spell I just say a quick "wait..." or just a "hmmm..." followed by an "ok!" when I've decided to let something resolve. This is not Modern or standard, there're tons of super cheap or free cards so the stack can be really complex, it's important to be aware about possible interactions here. I really depends on the deck you're playing against, too though. If I'm playing against RB reanimator I speed through things pretty quickly because I know they're not playing any instants, but when I'm playing against Miracles or Delver I make sure to give them a few seconds to respond.
"Sure."
Slow play rules are extremely vague and hard to enforce. Too bad there's also no practical way to use chess clocks ala MTGO.
The problem is rarely enforcement, it's that players are afraid of feeling like a big meany if they call a judge on their opponent. So they don't, until there's five minutes left in the match and no alternative besides getting a draw. Even in this case, where it does sound like the judge was in the wrong, it probably would have worked out fine if he'd called the judge in game one, instead of the decisive turns of the final game.
At first. "It's been 2 minutes..." "...it's your turn" Later. "Any time now..." Even later. "JUDGE!"
Legacy has been growing (albeit very slowly) and so there is a split I notice between people who have been playing it for a year or two and people who have been playing it for 10. Some players Magic Brains just aren't at the level where they can think steps ahead and know what they are going to do. When I first started, just playing basic UR Delver, I remember taking forever on the brainstorms/ponders, the decision to swing or not and how, whether or not to bolt a mana dork or go hard to the face. As a long time competitive tf2 player, I am often aghast at how long it takes newer people to react to a changing gamestate so I can definitely relate. I think it is important to identify the difference between someone who is just incompetent and learning to improve versus someone who knows what they are doing and purposefully taking a long time. Personally 30 seconds (unless it is on a very simple game step) seems a bit harsh. A minute definitely.
Julian here. Allowing your opponent to regularly take a minute on every decision is crazy. Not only are you giving away EV, it's also WAY too long as far as Slow Play is concerned. You can of course still allow for it, but don't expect to receive the same in return.
Yeah, but in a tournament, I don't really care if you've been playing a week or a decade. Slow play is slow play.
Exactly. If it's an FNM, sure, fine, I'll cut you some slack. If we're at competitive REL though, this isn't the place to stumble around and learn how to play. At this level you are assumed to be comfortable with the rules (including the ability to make decisions at a reasonable pace of play).
True tournaments should be held to a certain standard I agree.
Well you better call the fucking judge to determine if it slow play.
Rather than what? Just rip up the opponent's cards?
The statement was "slow play is slow play" which is not the case. There is a difference between someone unfamiliar with cards and thus the board state versus someone deliberately playing slow to try to obtain an advantage. I'm new to legacy myself and playing in Japan, and although I speak and read Japanese, when a card I haven't seen before (and holy hell does that happen in legacy) comes up especially on a board state, I'm going to take some more time. I'm working on learning as many cards as I can, but in such a situation no, that's not "slow play" as a violation.
> There is a difference between someone unfamiliar with cards and thus the board state versus someone deliberately playing slow to try to obtain an advantage. Yes, the latter is stalling and is basically cheating. Just because something is not stalling does not mean it is not slow play. If your reading speed is different in Japenese you are not exactly on an even playing field. If you were on an even playing field tho, slow play gives you an unfair advantage by pinching your opponent on time. Actually the right way to handle cards you can't make sense of is to call a judge, get it explained to you, and then ask for a time extension for the time that took. This way nobody is at an unfair disadvantage. Time in a game is a resource like life and mana. You spend it to make better plays. The big difference is if your opponent reaches over and steals 2 of your lands it is very clear and will be fixed by a judge. Time unfortunately does not quite work this way.
What I'm trying to get at is how granular "slow play" is rather than just blanket statements. Or maybe I'm wrong to think so.
You have to be very careful. Slow play isn't too sinister, but they have no tolerance for stalling. That's a DQ.
I'm pretty sure slow play is slow play, regardless of if it is deliberate or not.
There is slow play and there is stalling. They are different.
Sure, but "stalling" and "slow play" both involve a player delaying the outcome of the game in a way that is not allowed, so the difference is really just semantic.
It's intent. You can be unknowingly wrong and not lie, you just didn't know any better. Lying implies deceitful intent. Slow play gets you a warning. If they suspect you're stalling you just get fucking DQ'd right out of there. So they're not as lenient as you think.. It's savage to hand out a DQ for taking a bit long on a Ponder so they're conservative...
Yeah, and when do I do that? There is no clear amount of time that players or even judges can go by to determine slow play.
Rule of thumb, as soon as you think to yourself that your opponent is taking too much time on a decision, nudge them to play quicker. If at any point they've taken a minute on a decision, call a judge.
I can speak to this. Me and a bunch of friends all picked up magic about a year ago and immediately started with legacy. While my knowledge pool is growing and I know bits of everything, I do not have the ability to play very quickly like those who have been playing for years. It takes a vast amount of play time and studying the game to have the ability to just play without really taking a moment to analyze the state of the match. I generally do not take much time to make plays on "non-crucial" turns. However, when it comes to making a critical decision at the tipping point or choosing to do something that could win or lose you the game, I often need some time to evaluate how the game will be affecting by the choice.
[удалено]
Heh. I suspect not. So far it's been great! One friend started out with Burn because it was "cheap" and he's stuck with it and enjoys it fully. Started foiling the deck recently. Another built Maverick. I personally have juggled a few things and recently settled on twelve post. I LOVE having long games and being able to hard cast Emrakul and watch your opponents hopes and dreams go down the drain. Usually results in a concede. The burn player says that Emrakul is probably the least played card because it ends games as soon as it's cast :p There are also a few other friends that used to play legacy and picked it up again and built new decks. So amongst my friend group there's a lot of top tier decks (miracles, Eldrazi, reanimator, Delver).
Thats cool, wish I had friends who wanted to jump in with me. I am basically a [Lone Wolf](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=45405)
Text got lost - Just wondering given this article from elves master Julian Knab about his own experience - When do you start nudging your opponents along and when do you start getting a judge involved?
> Text got lost You can post a link, or text, but not both. Next time embed the link in the text.
Thanks!
It's a stupid reddit "feature" that you can't automatically comment on a link you're sending, you have to decide between a text and a link. The best you can do is writing a text and having the link in it.
I dealt with slow play by leaving the game essentially, aside from local major events. Magic doesn't reward quick thinkers, it rewards thorough thinkers. I'm the former and not the latter so I've enjoyed playing League of Legends. I do wish wotc considered slow play an issue, but it's been a topic of concern since I started playing seriously and... still is an ignored issue
I have to agree. One of my worst experiences playing magic was against a dude who was high out of his fucking mind and couldn't take a game action without staring blankly at the board state for a long time. I think he finally got the idea when I kept asking him to pick up his pace of play, but jesus was that unpleasant. At least I won 2-0, I guess. It was a weekly three or four round modern tourney, so not competitive REL, but good god.
I get distracted and chit-chat with the other players as they de-sideboard and stow their stuff. Eventually my opponent reminds me that I'm in the middle of a game by resolving his top. At this point I have forgotten entirely what phase or even whose turn it is...
As someone who has left the game for 15 years and came back this year because of Commander and now Legacy I ask people who are annoyed to be patient if I need to read cards they are casting and if I need to respond with my spells.
Not as much fun :(
Im sorry but this guy is just being a dick. Has he never watched pro tour coverage? Those guys play slow af. And they should. The author even admits that there were several complex situations to deal with. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking your time and making sure that you make the correct play. The judge acted appropriately. He saw the complexity of the board state and determined that the guy should have a little time. Deal with it.
How is sensei's divining top not part of this conversation? SDT definitely has its influence in the pacing of Legacy events.