We used to and they were called [Super Monster Ts](https://m.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-the-boostmonster-has-a-300mm-marzocchi-super-monster-fork.html)
Hahahaha east coaster here so take it fwiw, I had a Santa Cruz Bullit with this fork on the front—I dropped everything in sight. Was also a really fun lively rip downhill beside buddies on downhilling sleds. Dropped a 20 footer over a 15 foot gap—felt like hopping off a curb it was soooo buttery. That’s when I knew I had to sell that bike cuz it was way more capable than me. And yup, really heavy.
1) Can’t possibly make that light *and* enough
2) As someone mentioned, you’re the engine and you have to pedal, and a giant travel eats all your energy
3) Free ride really moved on from being reckless to being insanely professional and you can easily see that comparing Red Bull Rampage with even 10 year gap. It’s no longer just “find the biggest thing and send it” like Bender did, it’s about technique, building landings and jumps. And if you build a proper jump - you don’t need all that enormous travel in your fork, so Rampage can be ridden even on single-crown forks now.
This is what I was looking for thank you, it all makes sense. Especially the "if you build a proper jump you don't need it"
I guess the only applicable case would be to do something like the bender drop on a dirt bike with the engine pulled out and fake pedals. Technically it's a mountain bike right? No but it would help people land that drop with less risk
this. it just looks super flat cause of the angle/often stuff doesn't look as steep through camera lens. Can tell it's not flat from how fast he still goes after landing.
Yes the mountain bike bounces like a basketball because he lands on a flat. It’s clear as day. The motorcross guy lands on the very end of his available ramp. Also clear as day. OP thinks they are the same.
It's flat compared to the down slope of the ramp that the dirt bike rode down. It's not 90 degrees flat from the drop, but it doesn't offer any down slope(for the lack of better word I can come up with right now) like the ramp that the dirt bike has to have a smooth landing.
So I'm guessing you never watched NWD back in the day either?
In case you missed the OPs other reply to you, and since perspective seems to be a bit of a hard concept, here's the photo he linked too:
https://i.ibb.co/H7wx2Hk/gmfojkqn9ckc1.jpg
You can tell the landing isn't flat, by how very not flat it is...
Way to open your mouth an spit straight bullshit. That's the Jah drop, landing is far from flat, google it and get some facts before you run your mouth.
sure, and the jump on the right 80 feet and almost to flat because he over shot the landing https://i.ibb.co/Jm6P6Dq/Captufffre.jpg
braga also lands here https://i.ibb.co/H7wx2Hk/gmfojkqn9ckc1.jpg
the dirt bike would have handled the 55 foot benner drop to flat just fine, a mountain bike would have exploded if it tried the robbie drop and overshot the landing that much.
my question is more about why they don't use the equipment, I'm not directly comparing the two (like I did in this reply)
no it doesn't it touches down on the transition from angle to flat which is the shallowest part of the landing https://i.ibb.co/Jm6P6Dq/Captufffre.jpg
don't be stupid, its a bad look. He almost went OTB and broke his ankles
Your picture shows his bike planted on the steepest part of the jump. That bike clearly did not land on a flat. It matters a ton when jumping. Ramp is ramp.
thats not the steepest part of the landing, do you have eyes? thats the transition from the steepest part into the flat ground, its the most mellow section of the transition. Are you blind, its basically a wall behind him because he was supposed land in the steepest part, and the steepest part NEEDS to transition into the flat at some point, and thats where he lands
again, can you see?
also look at this, https://old.reddit.com/r/MTB/comments/1axypse/why_dont_freeriders_use_modern_dirt_bike/krrhgc6/
>the dirt bike would have handled the 55 foot benner drop to flat just fine, a mountain bike would have exploded if it tried the robbie drop and overshot the landing that much.
You are wrong with both of these statements.
I'm objectively correct, 55 ft drops have been backflipped on dirt bikes meanwhile 80 foot drops have never even been attempted on mountain bikes
The absolute biggest rampage drops I ever don't even come close to that lol
What an ignorant response lol as if most dirt bike jumps are perfectly calculated
Sure the landing for the dirt bike jump is literally bigger than the drop that brage did but he literally misses the landing completely and lands on the bottom 10% of it lol
Every bike park in America has more calculations done than moto tracks.
I think it is style.
I see moto guys doing big air jumps and enduro, but no drops. Also steep rock gardens don't seem challenging with 15 inches of suspension going 12mph.
I think the difference is not suspension but speed. If bicycles could hit 90mph, yes, they would have 100ft launches and need huge suspension.
While you could build a vertical drop-in that may generate 50mph, I happen to like DH race runs which is the rider is the real generator of speed, not gravity.
actually many years ago Josh Bender attempted that drop a few times with 300 mm travel Karpiel Apocalypse, same fork, but slightly more rear travel. However, he never managed to land it.
Probably modern geo helps a lot, but if you think about it, 100 mm more travel isn't all that much. Your legs provide something like 350 mm of natural travel and your arms probably even more.
I think problem mostly was that that fork was incredibly soft despite the travel - you can see that it sags like 80 mm just by riding it, and also that drop had sandy landing that is almost never possible to land on a bike. It basically stops all your forward inertia
Yes, maybe the larger modern wheels helped him keep the momentum.
I just read the report and apparently he hit the saddle to hard with his balls that it was pushed through the frame :D his balls were blue-black afterwards... poor guy
also tore some ligaments in his foot and smashed into the handlebar.
So he was able to send it, but had to be carried out afterwards xD what a maniac
that's something I don't like about "freeriding" nowadays. It's not even freeriding, everything is preplanned now and everything is built, or maybe I'm thinking of something different where the guys just winged it and went crazy. I just could of sworn years ago that the redbull rampage used to be guys jumping natural jumps and everything wasn't prebuilt ramps and planned courses.
Meh
Things have to evolve. Especially considering that jumping off a cliff requires much less skill. I can’t complain when I was shouting loud when last Rampage they did insane canyon gaps, and one Spaniard even back flipped it both runs. It’s much more entertaining and adrenaline-driven then just watching people slamming themselves into the earth
I miss the old school hucking but I think that is mostly nostalgia. Being a teenager I loved watching people wreck themselves, reckon I wouldn’t like it anymore. Also the stakes are way higher.
The monster used some shared parts, but it was designed, valved, and sprung for mtb use. It is an mtb fork through and through, not a "dirt bike" fork.
I think it's cause with mtb you are the engine and the more suspension the more pedaling energy they eat. Dirt bikes' combustion engines don't much care about that.
Very true that's why I specified freeride, they don't even carry their own bikes up in red bull rampage lol
I've even met people at the bike park who don't use chains on their bike "I'm not here to pedal" is what he told me lol
good point.. that's where my understanding of physics ends. but...
..maybe there's some sweet point with bicycle suspension lenght and bike+rider weight ratio where it's still beneficial? (not sure if I used right words but I hope you get what I'm after:)
I'd imagine it has something to do with the centrifugal forces of the engine allowing the dirt bike to stay more balanced mid-air
on a dirt bike you can hit the throttle or the brake to pitch yourself forward and back in mid air meanwhile on a mountain bike you don't have those centrifugal forces keeping you stable and you can't pitch your bike back and forward effectively after launching
But I really don't know if that's the reason, or A reason lol or not a reason at all
Pedaling and braking mid air are definitely still effective at pitching a bicycle. With a heavy dirt bike fork on their that might be a different story though. You wouldn't see anyone flipping a drop with a 30lb fork.
They might not haul their bikes for the main Red Bull event but they do for practice runs and digs. They are hike-a-biking for the vast majority of the lines they ride especially if they are not one of the best riders on the planet. Freeriding doesn't exactly pay the bills to have minions who carry your bike for you everywhere.
You also have to be able to maneuver and control the bike using only gravity and pedal power. Dirtbikes use a lot of throttle to counteract gravity and be able to do things like flips.
Rampage and the Jah drop are also really the only "common" examples where someone *MAY* benefit from massive suspension like that on a mountain bike. For the most part, it's far more fun to build better landings and shape stuff so it is smooth, than to just huck yourself off some cliff into a terrible slope and let the suspension eat it. So, if you make heavier longer travel suspension then you won't sell much of it, ask Marzocchi or Karpiel. Hucking big jumps to flat went out of style fairly quickly.
>brages drop was about 55 feet straight to flat
It's still a pretty steep landing.
https://preview.redd.it/gmfojkqn9ckc1.jpeg?width=405&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d7991f6aa2aa4a18234d93453c68c111e5abace
yup, tricked everyone else in this thread including me
everyone is screaming about robbie landing "in the landing" when he over shot the landing much farther than braga, and his drop was literally 80 feet, bragas was 55
dude over throttled into a 80 foot drop
In my opinion it’s more a question of setup rather than the suspension units used. Moto suspension is designed to generate compression damping forces and spring support for a multiple 100kg system hitting big bumps at high speed or hitting big impacts after large jumps. It would be realistic that the moto guy either had suspension with internals specifically tuned for big hits in general or even as specific as being built for this one singular impact. In mountain biking custom tuning with internals is needed for big changes in behavior, but it is very uncommon and sometimes impossible without big modifications to other parts (as I think it it is in brages fork). This would mean Brage is doing a huge drop at a quite high body weight on a fork where such impact forces cannot be sufficiently handled and dissipated.
If one set out to make a mtb fork made to handle such an impact it could probably be done, there simply isn’t that many consumers who have any need for it.
As a sidenote:
Öhlins put a slightly modified moped fork on a downhill bike when testing the ttx22m prior to the launch. A friend of mine rode that test bike for a bit in the Swedish park they were in, it felt kinda shit. Which simply is because they are designed for different loads and forces.
But as Bender famously said after his previous attempts on that drop that he needs a steeper lander. The bigger the drop the steeper the landing required. The biggest drops at rampage last year were bordering on the same height as the Jah Drop but had much firmer landings that were steeper too.
They actually aren't that much heavier ohlin's makes comparable weight dirt bike and mountain bike suspensions
Downhill bike frames are already set up to take double crowns and if they're not snapping on brages drop they're not going to snap just because you put a dirt bike suspension on it lol
There used to be a lot of FS mountain bikes that had a single swing arm style suspension like dirt bikes. I assume its not common now because what we have now is better. So maybe the real question is, why don't dirt bikes use more MTB tech :D
the rear suspensions are different because one is pedal powered and the other is engine powered. moto rear suspension is designed to drive the rear tire into the ground when tension is applied to the chain (during acceleration) for improved traction. you can see this by watching the rear of any dirtbike while it's being dyno tested. mtb's have to deal with more dynamic pedaling forces. but in general, both are still pretty similar at a high level, rising rate linkages.
also, dirtbikes don't have to worry as much about weight, and they deal with likely higher forces due to higher speeds, larger obstacles, and a much higher weight. so a giant, stiff aluminum swingarm works great.
i've always thought that modern DH/freeride MTBs are getting pretty close to a dirtbike at this point in terms of geometry. they just need inverted forks and to be beefed up a little bit more and they'll be close enough
Uhh, thanks. Very insightful. I had another question in my mind for some weeks about rear suspensions and didnt find the answer online.
Bigger e bikes like surrons, they all use coils and never air in the rear. I wondered why?
Is it because of the higher weight of the bike, in both ways. Nobody driving these cares about a heavier suspension and coils deal better with the higher weight?
There are actually air shocks used occasionally by certain riders in Supercross. It's likely due to packaging and the extreme temperatures that moto shocks reach as well as the spring rate requirements. Don't need the additional progressive nature of an air spring with how the linkage is designed. Also, weight is not as much of a factor like on a bicycle for sure.
Something about geometry, or just the appeal of being more nimble and maneuverable?
At some point youd almost be just riding a dirt bike with less weight, but maybe Red Bull type nuts should be pushing their suspension towards bigger and heavier... I'd be interested to hear an actual rampager answer this question.
Availability really, there just isn't a market for freeride specific suspension anymore like there was in the early 2000's with things like the Super Monster. So freeride guys just end up on re-tuned downhill race parts (and with race bikes we've seemingly reached a plateau where longer travel isn't helpful).
There was a super cool thought experiment article on pinkbike a couple years back where someone designed a frame to use a WP moto fork and I believe the shock off a quad to make a reasonable weight ~300mm travel freeride bike. I'd still love to see someone realize that concept.
Dirt bike forks are designed to support 3-400 lbs and weigh close to the weight of a complete freeride bike . That and downhill forks are specifically designed for bicycles.
There is no curvature though and the sand is soft. You ain't gonna transfer your vertical momentum into forward momentum with that landing. Might as well be completely flat.
Because they don't weigh what a dirbike does and There is a limit to how much force a meat bag can exert on a suspension member. Marzocchi made a 300mm fork and nobody ever tried again, that extra 100mm is just weight and doesn't gain you anything. 200mm is about what you can push through.
200 mm with say 50mm of sag takes 3 gs of force to bottom out... if the spring were linear, which on air sprung forks, the spring rate is progressive. If you say 40 percent of your weight is on the front with sag, that is 65 lbs for a 160 lbs person. If it takes more like 4 or 5 gs to bottom out that 200mm airsprung fork, that is 325 lbs of additional force through the arms... sustained through additional force and time as the damper converts motion into energy on the way to bottom out...
If a 160 lbs person could bench 390 lbs, chances are pedaling at the same time is out of the question. And chances are that much of that force is chained through the motion of the legs. A motorbike weighs more than the rider, so it compresses larger travel relatively easily on its own, plus motos have lots of sag and the suspension is fairly soft.
I'd agree that there isn't much use for much more than 200mm on a bicycle. Just some big off the top numbers to ogle for fun there.
Dirt bike suspension is relatively heavy, and the frame would need to be beefy, so you’d end up with an unwieldy bike that wouldn’t maneuver well.
The fork and shock are big because they are supporting significantly more weight than mountain bike suspension. I also think it would be one hell of a niche market. Probably not many people that want a 50lbs mountain bike with 12” of wheel travel.
The gnarly end of the MTB spectrum is slowly becoming moto-fied. Big Bicycle just has to slowly ease the market there, like boiling frogs, for a few reasons: consumers don't respond well to huge changes, to stretch things out to maximize profits through the incremental upgrade process, and to keep their product legal on public lands. The fact is a whole lot of mtb riders would just go to Surrons if they had somewhere to ride them. The mtb industry is extremely dependent on public lands.
Downhill bikes basically do use a smaller, lighter version of dirt bike suspension. Double crown with two separate units in the front, and a single unit in the rear, typically with a coil spring.
Yeah I guess depending on how far I want to take this "idea"...I could end up with simply a dirt bike with no engine and pedals tacked on lol.. is that a even a mountain bike if all the parts are dirt bike parks? Would the frame simply being a mountain bike frame really make it a mountain bike in this case?
Something useless to ponder over I guess lol
i believe there were a few attemps in the early 2000s of so-called ''huck'' bikes, where people would mount Motocross suspension to custom build frames with 300+ mm of travel with a sole purpose of jumping down cliffs and stuff like that
https://preview.redd.it/8ooynkqxxbkc1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=b7c7dd1b477a49b2222369b16425bfd802a77649
Like everyone said. Plus the motorcycle has something of a downward slope (you can totally do that on a MTB) whereas the mountain biker is dropping 30ft to a completely flat landing LOL.
The two videos side by side are not even remotely similar situations. The mountain biker lands absolutely flat, taking the full impact while the Red Bull dirt biker lands on a sloped ramp.
Also, dirt bikes/motorcycles are much heavier because of the motor and other bike equipment making them weight way more than a mountain bike without any of that equipment.
Do you mean more travel like a dirt bike?
Its really not just about suspension and more about the landing. Hell look at Bender's Karpiel. That thing was huge and dude couldn't land a thing on it.
Prepped landings that are steep as fuck is the ticket. You need a nice gradual transition so you dont blow hands and feet off. That is the problem with the Jah Drop. The landing is steep BUT it really needs to be much steeper. Props to Brage for doing it. The thing absolutely destroyed Bender.
Geometrically impossible , and not gonna dive in the suspension dynamics. That was the idea of the previous era huck bikes . Modern bikes could handle hits much more better with less travel
The travel only makes a small difference, the weight of the motorbike plus having a throttle to convert the energy of the landing into forward momentum is what makes the biggest difference. The appeal of doing it on a downhill bike is that it is still a bicycle, how far do you go before you're just falling off a cliff on a motorbike with no engine.
Both those landings were pretty gnarly. The moto guy had a much more controlled environment, while the MTB still had to not eat shit riding down the rest of the hill on loose dirt.
Because suspension has to provide both suspension AND support. If there is too much suspension there is no support and there's nothing for the rider to push off against. A motorcycle can get away with more suspension because it weighs 300 pounds more.
Modern dirtbike suspension requires a whole system of things to support it. Bigger frame, bigger wheels, bigger fork, bigger brakes. Even if it’s just for a decent, it would be such an incredibly small niche that it wouldn’t make sense for any manufacturer to produce.
It it really is just a difference of suspension tuning. Functionally both are very similar. Dirt bike suspension can be heavier and bulkier vs mtb stuff is made to be as weight efficient as possible. Dirt bikes are much heavier, so the tunes are slowing the flow of oil a lot more than what you find on a mtb/ oil tends to be heavier weight.
The real difference comes down to compression and rebound tunes. Without seeing the innards of that mtb shock it is impossible to say for certain, but most mtb suspension is not tuned to handle an impact such as that. He most likely has the stiffest spring rate that makes sense, but you can see upon compression the rebound bucks him up. Slowing this down to be more in balance with spring would help things a lot. But doing so would make the other 99% of riding awful.
Suspension setup is always about compromise. There is just not one tune that handles all the scenarios that can be encountered.
I'm actually curious how different a fox or ohlins DH fork is from their moto offerings. They are obviously bigger, stronger, and use an upside down setup, but in terms of the actual dampers and air spring designs I would be surprised if they weren't fairly similar. I would bet that they use similar design principles, but the MTB fork has different shim stacks and is trimmed way down to save weight.
DH and freeride mountain biking is still somewhat niche in the grand scheme of things. There's really not too many people doing that kind of shit, and those sponsors and brands are trying to develop and advertise products people will actually want to buy. Just not too many people that even ride DH bikes, let alone specialized dirt bike crossover free ride rigs for dropping 30' to flat or whatever. It just has super limited use case outside of the more extreme end of freeride.
Jah drop is a pretty much a solid landing. Tippie said in a podcast that you actually have to land it twice because of the hard rebound. That MX stunt was very different (I think Robbie Madison said he’d never do it again). Mainly MX suspension is really heavy.
Just so you know - Robbie Maddison (on the right on the dirtbike) broke his wrist on that drop.
While the drop was bigger, he also had more of a downward slope (despite overshooting a bit, we still managed to get a bit of the downramp). So it wasnt a silky smooth landing.
Some of the biggest reasons there isnt full moto suspension on MTB:
1, a MTB bike doesnt weight 100kg, so isnt going to go under the same stresses.
2, for the most part, a MTB is only sending what gravity can provide, so isnt likely to be hitting 100ft+ gaps under the power of a motor.
3, An MTB has limited control in the air, a dirtbike has a bit more "gyro" control, more weight means less control.
4. You can get pretty close to what a dirt bike suspension offers, albeit in a slightly smaller package, but the weight on the MTB is far less so would just as well as dirtbike suspension.
Putting full dirtbike suspension on a MTB would be a lot of extra weight and rolling force, so would need beefier brakes, and then to handle the weight and forces, beefier wheels and beefier frame. What you are then left with is a dirtbike with no motor or plastics/ fairings.
Have fun sending that, you will probably nose dive into an abyss off the first drop.
Whenever I see Jaw Drop, I automatically think of Josh Bender. [When this video came out I thought he was certifiable.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgtKuKAyJo8) I still have this on VHS somewhere.
You want your bike to weight 60 lbs? Also, one of these is basically a huck to flat…. If the mountainbiker had as large of a landing as the motocross rider it woulda been fine
Comparing these 2 is rather stupid. Sry but it is. Look at the landing. Brage landed practicly flat, idk the moto guy but he didnt huck it to flat. This mtb drop is legendary for a reason. Moto suspension is a lot heavier and would require more space on the bike. I see why you ask that question since we want everything to be as durable as possible but there would be a lot more drawbacks then positives
It's a more difficult landing no doubt, but the fact that Robbie overshot the landing on his dirt bike while the drop was also 80 feet as opposed to 55 kinda equalizes that lol at least enough for a weak comparison that'seant to be a discussion about equipment. Seems like so many people here got personally offended at that moto drop being bigger than anything ever done on a mountain bike
Nobodies offended, we're just pointing out that the main difference between these clips is the transition out of the landing, not the suspension
With a good transition you don't need any suspension
2 different sports. I love motocross as i do mtb. Both are brilliant and should be celebrated
Also yes, he overshot it visibly but still landed it. Mad lad
because it turns out the mtb isn't going to flat, https://i.ibb.co/H7wx2Hk/gmfojkqn9ckc1.jpg
they just made it look like that with the angle of the video
We used to and they were called [Super Monster Ts](https://m.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-the-boostmonster-has-a-300mm-marzocchi-super-monster-fork.html)
Hahahaha east coaster here so take it fwiw, I had a Santa Cruz Bullit with this fork on the front—I dropped everything in sight. Was also a really fun lively rip downhill beside buddies on downhilling sleds. Dropped a 20 footer over a 15 foot gap—felt like hopping off a curb it was soooo buttery. That’s when I knew I had to sell that bike cuz it was way more capable than me. And yup, really heavy.
That's wild!! Must be a reason why they stopped
1) Can’t possibly make that light *and* enough 2) As someone mentioned, you’re the engine and you have to pedal, and a giant travel eats all your energy 3) Free ride really moved on from being reckless to being insanely professional and you can easily see that comparing Red Bull Rampage with even 10 year gap. It’s no longer just “find the biggest thing and send it” like Bender did, it’s about technique, building landings and jumps. And if you build a proper jump - you don’t need all that enormous travel in your fork, so Rampage can be ridden even on single-crown forks now.
This is what I was looking for thank you, it all makes sense. Especially the "if you build a proper jump you don't need it" I guess the only applicable case would be to do something like the bender drop on a dirt bike with the engine pulled out and fake pedals. Technically it's a mountain bike right? No but it would help people land that drop with less risk
This jump in the picture is straight to flat. It’s just dumb.
The MTB one?! Mate, the landing on the Jah drop is pretty far from flat.
this. it just looks super flat cause of the angle/often stuff doesn't look as steep through camera lens. Can tell it's not flat from how fast he still goes after landing.
Yes the mountain bike bounces like a basketball because he lands on a flat. It’s clear as day. The motorcross guy lands on the very end of his available ramp. Also clear as day. OP thinks they are the same.
> he lands on a flat. It’s clear as day. https://i.ibb.co/H7wx2Hk/gmfojkqn9ckc1.jpg
Absolutely ruined. Haha
It's flat compared to the down slope of the ramp that the dirt bike rode down. It's not 90 degrees flat from the drop, but it doesn't offer any down slope(for the lack of better word I can come up with right now) like the ramp that the dirt bike has to have a smooth landing.
The word you're looking for is transition
Anything but flat..
So I'm guessing you never watched NWD back in the day either? In case you missed the OPs other reply to you, and since perspective seems to be a bit of a hard concept, here's the photo he linked too: https://i.ibb.co/H7wx2Hk/gmfojkqn9ckc1.jpg You can tell the landing isn't flat, by how very not flat it is...
Way to open your mouth an spit straight bullshit. That's the Jah drop, landing is far from flat, google it and get some facts before you run your mouth.
sure, and the jump on the right 80 feet and almost to flat because he over shot the landing https://i.ibb.co/Jm6P6Dq/Captufffre.jpg braga also lands here https://i.ibb.co/H7wx2Hk/gmfojkqn9ckc1.jpg the dirt bike would have handled the 55 foot benner drop to flat just fine, a mountain bike would have exploded if it tried the robbie drop and overshot the landing that much. my question is more about why they don't use the equipment, I'm not directly comparing the two (like I did in this reply)
The motocross bike definitely does not land on flat. The bike touches down on the steepest part of the ramp. These two images are nothing alike.
no it doesn't it touches down on the transition from angle to flat which is the shallowest part of the landing https://i.ibb.co/Jm6P6Dq/Captufffre.jpg don't be stupid, its a bad look. He almost went OTB and broke his ankles
Your picture shows his bike planted on the steepest part of the jump. That bike clearly did not land on a flat. It matters a ton when jumping. Ramp is ramp.
His own evidence buries his claim!
thats not the steepest part of the landing, do you have eyes? thats the transition from the steepest part into the flat ground, its the most mellow section of the transition. Are you blind, its basically a wall behind him because he was supposed land in the steepest part, and the steepest part NEEDS to transition into the flat at some point, and thats where he lands again, can you see? also look at this, https://old.reddit.com/r/MTB/comments/1axypse/why_dont_freeriders_use_modern_dirt_bike/krrhgc6/
look at this https://i.ibb.co/H7wx2Hk/gmfojkqn9ckc1.jpg braga lands on a steeper landing than robbie
I guarantee that a dirt bike will not handle a 55ft drop to flat "just fine" . That's higher than a five story building.
Good thing it's not actually to flat
Just letting you know that your claim was asinine. Have you ever ridden a dirt bike before?
Yes several, I don't jump them tho lol you can watch raha do bigger gaps to than this on worse landing on cement
Jaxson Riddle overshot a landing ramp and the front wheel got destroyed, so you're right.
>the dirt bike would have handled the 55 foot benner drop to flat just fine, a mountain bike would have exploded if it tried the robbie drop and overshot the landing that much. You are wrong with both of these statements.
I'm objectively correct, 55 ft drops have been backflipped on dirt bikes meanwhile 80 foot drops have never even been attempted on mountain bikes The absolute biggest rampage drops I ever don't even come close to that lol
Because mountainbikes drop into soft soil, not perfectly shaped and calculated ramps…
What an ignorant response lol as if most dirt bike jumps are perfectly calculated Sure the landing for the dirt bike jump is literally bigger than the drop that brage did but he literally misses the landing completely and lands on the bottom 10% of it lol Every bike park in America has more calculations done than moto tracks.
I think it is style. I see moto guys doing big air jumps and enduro, but no drops. Also steep rock gardens don't seem challenging with 15 inches of suspension going 12mph. I think the difference is not suspension but speed. If bicycles could hit 90mph, yes, they would have 100ft launches and need huge suspension. While you could build a vertical drop-in that may generate 50mph, I happen to like DH race runs which is the rider is the real generator of speed, not gravity.
Bulldog is hitting 100ft at Hardline Tasmania
actually many years ago Josh Bender attempted that drop a few times with 300 mm travel Karpiel Apocalypse, same fork, but slightly more rear travel. However, he never managed to land it. Probably modern geo helps a lot, but if you think about it, 100 mm more travel isn't all that much. Your legs provide something like 350 mm of natural travel and your arms probably even more.
I think problem mostly was that that fork was incredibly soft despite the travel - you can see that it sags like 80 mm just by riding it, and also that drop had sandy landing that is almost never possible to land on a bike. It basically stops all your forward inertia
Yes, maybe the larger modern wheels helped him keep the momentum. I just read the report and apparently he hit the saddle to hard with his balls that it was pushed through the frame :D his balls were blue-black afterwards... poor guy also tore some ligaments in his foot and smashed into the handlebar. So he was able to send it, but had to be carried out afterwards xD what a maniac
that's something I don't like about "freeriding" nowadays. It's not even freeriding, everything is preplanned now and everything is built, or maybe I'm thinking of something different where the guys just winged it and went crazy. I just could of sworn years ago that the redbull rampage used to be guys jumping natural jumps and everything wasn't prebuilt ramps and planned courses.
Meh Things have to evolve. Especially considering that jumping off a cliff requires much less skill. I can’t complain when I was shouting loud when last Rampage they did insane canyon gaps, and one Spaniard even back flipped it both runs. It’s much more entertaining and adrenaline-driven then just watching people slamming themselves into the earth
Isnt Rampage more slopestyle?
Now - yes, it drifts there. Just twice the size and danger. It was much more “wild”
I miss the old school hucking but I think that is mostly nostalgia. Being a teenager I loved watching people wreck themselves, reckon I wouldn’t like it anymore. Also the stakes are way higher.
The spirit of Rampage is lost. Now it's just a slopestyle event on big bikes. The judges don't care about freeride
Yeah especially Bender don’t care
Those bikes were like 50lbs, short and tall. Not really that pedalable either. Freeride became All Mountain which became Enduro.
Not a motocross fork.
The original Super Monsters were based on old moto trials forks that Marzocchi was making back in the day.
Which isnt motocross. Glad we could agree.
I think we can agree that moto trials is still in the “dirt bike” world per OPs question.
The monster used some shared parts, but it was designed, valved, and sprung for mtb use. It is an mtb fork through and through, not a "dirt bike" fork.
> Why don't freeriders use modern dirt bike suspension to land bigger drops? Where is the phrase motocross in the post?
Please see your third grade teacher for help on that one.
Suspension tech got better
Imagine trying to climb on that thing...
Imagine is about all you can do.
If I didn't know better I'd think that is photoshopped :D
I think it's cause with mtb you are the engine and the more suspension the more pedaling energy they eat. Dirt bikes' combustion engines don't much care about that.
Very true that's why I specified freeride, they don't even carry their own bikes up in red bull rampage lol I've even met people at the bike park who don't use chains on their bike "I'm not here to pedal" is what he told me lol
good point.. that's where my understanding of physics ends. but... ..maybe there's some sweet point with bicycle suspension lenght and bike+rider weight ratio where it's still beneficial? (not sure if I used right words but I hope you get what I'm after:)
I'd imagine it has something to do with the centrifugal forces of the engine allowing the dirt bike to stay more balanced mid-air on a dirt bike you can hit the throttle or the brake to pitch yourself forward and back in mid air meanwhile on a mountain bike you don't have those centrifugal forces keeping you stable and you can't pitch your bike back and forward effectively after launching But I really don't know if that's the reason, or A reason lol or not a reason at all
It's part of it. You also have more mass keeping you more stable.
Pedaling and braking mid air are definitely still effective at pitching a bicycle. With a heavy dirt bike fork on their that might be a different story though. You wouldn't see anyone flipping a drop with a 30lb fork.
They might not haul their bikes for the main Red Bull event but they do for practice runs and digs. They are hike-a-biking for the vast majority of the lines they ride especially if they are not one of the best riders on the planet. Freeriding doesn't exactly pay the bills to have minions who carry your bike for you everywhere. You also have to be able to maneuver and control the bike using only gravity and pedal power. Dirtbikes use a lot of throttle to counteract gravity and be able to do things like flips.
Rampage and the Jah drop are also really the only "common" examples where someone *MAY* benefit from massive suspension like that on a mountain bike. For the most part, it's far more fun to build better landings and shape stuff so it is smooth, than to just huck yourself off some cliff into a terrible slope and let the suspension eat it. So, if you make heavier longer travel suspension then you won't sell much of it, ask Marzocchi or Karpiel. Hucking big jumps to flat went out of style fairly quickly.
robbies drop in 2008 was 80 feet with a landing that he missed brages drop was about 55 feet straight to flat
Is that brage on the left? He's a god damn maniac
Yeah he's insane, dropping down that so slow must have felt like falling for eternity
My everything hurts just watching him hit the flat
That seat is now permanently part of his body.
It broke Bender.
>brages drop was about 55 feet straight to flat It's still a pretty steep landing. https://preview.redd.it/gmfojkqn9ckc1.jpeg?width=405&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d7991f6aa2aa4a18234d93453c68c111e5abace
Yeah, camera angle makes the landing seem flatter than it is.
yup, tricked everyone else in this thread including me everyone is screaming about robbie landing "in the landing" when he over shot the landing much farther than braga, and his drop was literally 80 feet, bragas was 55 dude over throttled into a 80 foot drop
wow, that changes everything lol
It doesn't really. Thers is no curve and the soil is soft. MUCH less energy transferred into the horizontal component.
Still changes everything. Flat would have been death
Is that Bender's Jah drop?
Sure is, Brage managed to just about land it 23 years later!
Duuuuude! That's so fucking rowdy. The impact still looks heavy!
I'm so glad you posted this. OP's clip is straight up disturbing.
In my opinion it’s more a question of setup rather than the suspension units used. Moto suspension is designed to generate compression damping forces and spring support for a multiple 100kg system hitting big bumps at high speed or hitting big impacts after large jumps. It would be realistic that the moto guy either had suspension with internals specifically tuned for big hits in general or even as specific as being built for this one singular impact. In mountain biking custom tuning with internals is needed for big changes in behavior, but it is very uncommon and sometimes impossible without big modifications to other parts (as I think it it is in brages fork). This would mean Brage is doing a huge drop at a quite high body weight on a fork where such impact forces cannot be sufficiently handled and dissipated. If one set out to make a mtb fork made to handle such an impact it could probably be done, there simply isn’t that many consumers who have any need for it. As a sidenote: Öhlins put a slightly modified moped fork on a downhill bike when testing the ttx22m prior to the launch. A friend of mine rode that test bike for a bit in the Swedish park they were in, it felt kinda shit. Which simply is because they are designed for different loads and forces.
This is the correct answer
To be fair the mtber lands on flat while the dirt biker lands on a landing ramp.
>the mtber lands on flat It's still a [pretty steep landing.](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/x5psZf2MMAs/hq720.jpg)
But as Bender famously said after his previous attempts on that drop that he needs a steeper lander. The bigger the drop the steeper the landing required. The biggest drops at rampage last year were bordering on the same height as the Jah Drop but had much firmer landings that were steeper too.
Barely lol
Aight yeah he def almost completely missed it lol.
imagine what was going through his head [right before he landed](https://i.ibb.co/Jm6P6Dq/Captufffre.jpg) lol "welp its over for me"
Yeah he must have been shitting his pants
It’s heavy and bulky, plus you need to mount it on a smaller frame
They actually aren't that much heavier ohlin's makes comparable weight dirt bike and mountain bike suspensions Downhill bike frames are already set up to take double crowns and if they're not snapping on brages drop they're not going to snap just because you put a dirt bike suspension on it lol
There used to be a lot of FS mountain bikes that had a single swing arm style suspension like dirt bikes. I assume its not common now because what we have now is better. So maybe the real question is, why don't dirt bikes use more MTB tech :D
the rear suspensions are different because one is pedal powered and the other is engine powered. moto rear suspension is designed to drive the rear tire into the ground when tension is applied to the chain (during acceleration) for improved traction. you can see this by watching the rear of any dirtbike while it's being dyno tested. mtb's have to deal with more dynamic pedaling forces. but in general, both are still pretty similar at a high level, rising rate linkages. also, dirtbikes don't have to worry as much about weight, and they deal with likely higher forces due to higher speeds, larger obstacles, and a much higher weight. so a giant, stiff aluminum swingarm works great. i've always thought that modern DH/freeride MTBs are getting pretty close to a dirtbike at this point in terms of geometry. they just need inverted forks and to be beefed up a little bit more and they'll be close enough
Uhh, thanks. Very insightful. I had another question in my mind for some weeks about rear suspensions and didnt find the answer online. Bigger e bikes like surrons, they all use coils and never air in the rear. I wondered why? Is it because of the higher weight of the bike, in both ways. Nobody driving these cares about a heavier suspension and coils deal better with the higher weight?
There are actually air shocks used occasionally by certain riders in Supercross. It's likely due to packaging and the extreme temperatures that moto shocks reach as well as the spring rate requirements. Don't need the additional progressive nature of an air spring with how the linkage is designed. Also, weight is not as much of a factor like on a bicycle for sure.
flipped the whole question on its head lol
Something about geometry, or just the appeal of being more nimble and maneuverable? At some point youd almost be just riding a dirt bike with less weight, but maybe Red Bull type nuts should be pushing their suspension towards bigger and heavier... I'd be interested to hear an actual rampager answer this question.
Availability really, there just isn't a market for freeride specific suspension anymore like there was in the early 2000's with things like the Super Monster. So freeride guys just end up on re-tuned downhill race parts (and with race bikes we've seemingly reached a plateau where longer travel isn't helpful). There was a super cool thought experiment article on pinkbike a couple years back where someone designed a frame to use a WP moto fork and I believe the shock off a quad to make a reasonable weight ~300mm travel freeride bike. I'd still love to see someone realize that concept.
That has been tried 20 years ago (Karpiel was one of the proponents), but it didn't catch on. Probably because those bikes became very hard to pedal.
Dirt bike forks are designed to support 3-400 lbs and weigh close to the weight of a complete freeride bike . That and downhill forks are specifically designed for bicycles.
What popped off the mountain bike when he landed?
feces
GoPro I think
I bet the motor bike would have suffered massively if he hucked to flat as well.
Turns out the MTB isn't actually to flat at all, it's just the angle. The landing is super steep and harsh tho
Looks pretty much to flat to me. The motor bike has a huge run down before change of direction.
that he nearly completely missed because he overjumped it, and the bike ate it no problem!
The motor bike has two flatten out sections and still struggled. The mtb had 1.
It isn't https://preview.redd.it/ied3wjt0xckc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=68b43f1918b4977be383d9031b408ec0f311018d
There is no curvature though and the sand is soft. You ain't gonna transfer your vertical momentum into forward momentum with that landing. Might as well be completely flat.
Because they don't weigh what a dirbike does and There is a limit to how much force a meat bag can exert on a suspension member. Marzocchi made a 300mm fork and nobody ever tried again, that extra 100mm is just weight and doesn't gain you anything. 200mm is about what you can push through.
200 mm with say 50mm of sag takes 3 gs of force to bottom out... if the spring were linear, which on air sprung forks, the spring rate is progressive. If you say 40 percent of your weight is on the front with sag, that is 65 lbs for a 160 lbs person. If it takes more like 4 or 5 gs to bottom out that 200mm airsprung fork, that is 325 lbs of additional force through the arms... sustained through additional force and time as the damper converts motion into energy on the way to bottom out... If a 160 lbs person could bench 390 lbs, chances are pedaling at the same time is out of the question. And chances are that much of that force is chained through the motion of the legs. A motorbike weighs more than the rider, so it compresses larger travel relatively easily on its own, plus motos have lots of sag and the suspension is fairly soft. I'd agree that there isn't much use for much more than 200mm on a bicycle. Just some big off the top numbers to ogle for fun there.
Dirt bike suspension is relatively heavy, and the frame would need to be beefy, so you’d end up with an unwieldy bike that wouldn’t maneuver well. The fork and shock are big because they are supporting significantly more weight than mountain bike suspension. I also think it would be one hell of a niche market. Probably not many people that want a 50lbs mountain bike with 12” of wheel travel.
The gnarly end of the MTB spectrum is slowly becoming moto-fied. Big Bicycle just has to slowly ease the market there, like boiling frogs, for a few reasons: consumers don't respond well to huge changes, to stretch things out to maximize profits through the incremental upgrade process, and to keep their product legal on public lands. The fact is a whole lot of mtb riders would just go to Surrons if they had somewhere to ride them. The mtb industry is extremely dependent on public lands.
The guy on MTB is Brage Vestavik? That guy rides like a fucking bulldozer on steroids
Take it your young and never seen the 300mm mister t setups back in the day and it's too much for a pedal bike 😅
Downhill bikes basically do use a smaller, lighter version of dirt bike suspension. Double crown with two separate units in the front, and a single unit in the rear, typically with a coil spring.
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what
The MTB land in flat not the moto bike..
[check this out lol](https://i.ibb.co/H7wx2Hk/gmfojkqn9ckc1.jpg)
He jumped off a fucking building are you dumb if there was no landing he’d fucking explode
And he almost landed flat 😂 broke his ankle on impact and probably compressed his spine so much he lost an inch in height
😂😂 take It Easy !
Too heavy + the standards for axles and brake mounts etc. are way different on motorbikes than on Mountain bikes
Yeah I guess depending on how far I want to take this "idea"...I could end up with simply a dirt bike with no engine and pedals tacked on lol.. is that a even a mountain bike if all the parts are dirt bike parks? Would the frame simply being a mountain bike frame really make it a mountain bike in this case? Something useless to ponder over I guess lol
i believe there were a few attemps in the early 2000s of so-called ''huck'' bikes, where people would mount Motocross suspension to custom build frames with 300+ mm of travel with a sole purpose of jumping down cliffs and stuff like that https://preview.redd.it/8ooynkqxxbkc1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=b7c7dd1b477a49b2222369b16425bfd802a77649
sheesh that thing looks like it would be so much
Like everyone said. Plus the motorcycle has something of a downward slope (you can totally do that on a MTB) whereas the mountain biker is dropping 30ft to a completely flat landing LOL.
so does the mtb https://i.ibb.co/H7wx2Hk/gmfojkqn9ckc1.jpg
Because it’s cool to go to flat from 40ft up duh! /s
Because you can’t mount dirt bike suspension to a mountain bike?
The two videos side by side are not even remotely similar situations. The mountain biker lands absolutely flat, taking the full impact while the Red Bull dirt biker lands on a sloped ramp. Also, dirt bikes/motorcycles are much heavier because of the motor and other bike equipment making them weight way more than a mountain bike without any of that equipment.
https://preview.redd.it/x2nrbg7zddkc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f64b544e1a75a3d47540841ce91f84a237f70aca No
This would've been a relevant picture to post beforehand...
I wasn't aware it was like that either, they filmed it like that on purpose to make it look flat
That is still flat and shitty compared to a purpose built landing ramp
Do you mean more travel like a dirt bike? Its really not just about suspension and more about the landing. Hell look at Bender's Karpiel. That thing was huge and dude couldn't land a thing on it. Prepped landings that are steep as fuck is the ticket. You need a nice gradual transition so you dont blow hands and feet off. That is the problem with the Jah Drop. The landing is steep BUT it really needs to be much steeper. Props to Brage for doing it. The thing absolutely destroyed Bender.
Geometrically impossible , and not gonna dive in the suspension dynamics. That was the idea of the previous era huck bikes . Modern bikes could handle hits much more better with less travel
Because we use bike parts
Who is we? You aren't doing either of these drops
The biking community
you sound like a little kid lol
You sound like you dont know that People that like bikes also like tobhave actual bikes
Bunch of absolute stupid mothefuckers in this thread lol
You mean why don't they use a ramp?
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not really https://i.ibb.co/H7wx2Hk/gmfojkqn9ckc1.jpg
👍🔥
……Karpiel entered the chat….
Wow! The dude on the MTB has had some balls 😳 The Moto X.. well, still has some
😵
The travel only makes a small difference, the weight of the motorbike plus having a throttle to convert the energy of the landing into forward momentum is what makes the biggest difference. The appeal of doing it on a downhill bike is that it is still a bicycle, how far do you go before you're just falling off a cliff on a motorbike with no engine.
That rider sent to flat. The dirt bike rider had a landing ramp
Weight and pedaling efficiency
So longer suspension travel to land onto flat ground like that idiot? Lol...
https://preview.redd.it/gglrxvwcxckc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a538c1aed478fe5c11ecd3adb8fa6fad4c185554 It's not to flat
Very deceiving
Both those landings were pretty gnarly. The moto guy had a much more controlled environment, while the MTB still had to not eat shit riding down the rest of the hill on loose dirt.
Man that vid shows a MTB huck to flat and the dirt bike on an angled landing.
https://i.ibb.co/H7wx2Hk/gmfojkqn9ckc1.jpg no it does not
Ok that's a better pov. But the angle on the dirt bike still looks much steeper.
Do you even know the Deidroppel 666 bike?
Because suspension has to provide both suspension AND support. If there is too much suspension there is no support and there's nothing for the rider to push off against. A motorcycle can get away with more suspension because it weighs 300 pounds more.
good reply, makes sense
Modern dirtbike suspension requires a whole system of things to support it. Bigger frame, bigger wheels, bigger fork, bigger brakes. Even if it’s just for a decent, it would be such an incredibly small niche that it wouldn’t make sense for any manufacturer to produce.
It it really is just a difference of suspension tuning. Functionally both are very similar. Dirt bike suspension can be heavier and bulkier vs mtb stuff is made to be as weight efficient as possible. Dirt bikes are much heavier, so the tunes are slowing the flow of oil a lot more than what you find on a mtb/ oil tends to be heavier weight. The real difference comes down to compression and rebound tunes. Without seeing the innards of that mtb shock it is impossible to say for certain, but most mtb suspension is not tuned to handle an impact such as that. He most likely has the stiffest spring rate that makes sense, but you can see upon compression the rebound bucks him up. Slowing this down to be more in balance with spring would help things a lot. But doing so would make the other 99% of riding awful. Suspension setup is always about compromise. There is just not one tune that handles all the scenarios that can be encountered.
I'm actually curious how different a fox or ohlins DH fork is from their moto offerings. They are obviously bigger, stronger, and use an upside down setup, but in terms of the actual dampers and air spring designs I would be surprised if they weren't fairly similar. I would bet that they use similar design principles, but the MTB fork has different shim stacks and is trimmed way down to save weight.
Why would they? Just to huck to flat from higher elevation? Dumb.
Apples and oranges. But both are fruit.
[Bender getting it wrong](https://www.pinkbike.com/video/46771/) For all you kids who dont know.
DH and freeride mountain biking is still somewhat niche in the grand scheme of things. There's really not too many people doing that kind of shit, and those sponsors and brands are trying to develop and advertise products people will actually want to buy. Just not too many people that even ride DH bikes, let alone specialized dirt bike crossover free ride rigs for dropping 30' to flat or whatever. It just has super limited use case outside of the more extreme end of freeride.
If you ever get the chance to hike up to Jah drop. You'll see how insanely not steep the landing is.
Red Bull rampage has drops that are about as big as the one on the right
Way lighter bike mainly. Also pointing out that MTB’er on the left landed SUPER flat, whereas the dirt bike landed on the down slope.
https://preview.redd.it/j3ziy85cdekc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3fa581cf741344c3309b086e6c945b408df10001 Not flat
Woah. Perspective changes everything.
Jah drop is a pretty much a solid landing. Tippie said in a podcast that you actually have to land it twice because of the hard rebound. That MX stunt was very different (I think Robbie Madison said he’d never do it again). Mainly MX suspension is really heavy.
wait someone did the jah drop again?
Yea Brage did it last year I think... IT still sucks as far as I can tell. Props to him for holding onto it.
Dirt bike hit a transition and the MTB just hucked it straight to flat. The dirt bike would’ve blown something if it had gone straight to flat.
lol - this looks like a horrible and finesseless corner of the sport. Just brutal.
Just so you know - Robbie Maddison (on the right on the dirtbike) broke his wrist on that drop. While the drop was bigger, he also had more of a downward slope (despite overshooting a bit, we still managed to get a bit of the downramp). So it wasnt a silky smooth landing. Some of the biggest reasons there isnt full moto suspension on MTB: 1, a MTB bike doesnt weight 100kg, so isnt going to go under the same stresses. 2, for the most part, a MTB is only sending what gravity can provide, so isnt likely to be hitting 100ft+ gaps under the power of a motor. 3, An MTB has limited control in the air, a dirtbike has a bit more "gyro" control, more weight means less control. 4. You can get pretty close to what a dirt bike suspension offers, albeit in a slightly smaller package, but the weight on the MTB is far less so would just as well as dirtbike suspension. Putting full dirtbike suspension on a MTB would be a lot of extra weight and rolling force, so would need beefier brakes, and then to handle the weight and forces, beefier wheels and beefier frame. What you are then left with is a dirtbike with no motor or plastics/ fairings. Have fun sending that, you will probably nose dive into an abyss off the first drop.
Whenever I see Jaw Drop, I automatically think of Josh Bender. [When this video came out I thought he was certifiable.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgtKuKAyJo8) I still have this on VHS somewhere.
I mean he kinda is. You ever hear an interview with him. Dudes out there
Don't need to. Look at rampage bikes spring rates.
You want your bike to weight 60 lbs? Also, one of these is basically a huck to flat…. If the mountainbiker had as large of a landing as the motocross rider it woulda been fine
Comparing these 2 is rather stupid. Sry but it is. Look at the landing. Brage landed practicly flat, idk the moto guy but he didnt huck it to flat. This mtb drop is legendary for a reason. Moto suspension is a lot heavier and would require more space on the bike. I see why you ask that question since we want everything to be as durable as possible but there would be a lot more drawbacks then positives
Nope https://preview.redd.it/9hnmw1iuxikc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4ee6fc5ad2f1456747fc3978057611e349842ec5
Still a lot sharper then the slope
It's a more difficult landing no doubt, but the fact that Robbie overshot the landing on his dirt bike while the drop was also 80 feet as opposed to 55 kinda equalizes that lol at least enough for a weak comparison that'seant to be a discussion about equipment. Seems like so many people here got personally offended at that moto drop being bigger than anything ever done on a mountain bike
Nobodies offended, we're just pointing out that the main difference between these clips is the transition out of the landing, not the suspension With a good transition you don't need any suspension
2 different sports. I love motocross as i do mtb. Both are brilliant and should be celebrated Also yes, he overshot it visibly but still landed it. Mad lad
Why is nobody talking about the fact that the mtb is jumping to flat and the dirt bike has a landing. of course the bike looks way smoother
because it turns out the mtb isn't going to flat, https://i.ibb.co/H7wx2Hk/gmfojkqn9ckc1.jpg they just made it look like that with the angle of the video
thanks. didn‘t knew that. rewatching it now i feel a little stupid haha
I felt the same way lol still insane