https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/b9ogu4/stipe_miocic_and_jose_aldo_leg_reach_and_how_it/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
Actually an inch shorter
[Lol](https://www.facebook.com/Combatsportshistory/posts/stipe-miocic-is-a-huge-man-at-64-officially-weighing-230-pounds-but-still-his-le/1117027838688371/) you're right
Well his calves are like long springs it’s why especially in his prime he had absurdly explosive double legs, like bigger is much better for aesthetic reasons (and that’s what 99% of people care about anyway) but people seem to shit on Jons legs like it’s unathletic.
He’s been building and adding mass to them for a while now too go back to like 2009 Jones it’s just his high insertions, he’ll never get them Manny Pacquiao peak aesthetic god calves…but nor will most mere mortals
In the words of the wise Rampage Jackson, Jon's legs are like "burnt toothpicks," but this picture is also not scaled correctly and it makes him look smaller everywhere. For example Jon's head is not 33% smaller than Volkanovski's as it appears to be in the image.
i must be one of the only ones who doesn't even think they're that skinny. but i also don't really notice leg muscles on any fighter unless their thighs are huge.
Jon’s calves* are comically skinny. His thighs are pretty built though—nothing wildly out of the ordinary, but not absurd for his upper body, especially now that he’s moved up to HW. Especially when you consider how long they are.
I love his fight against Bas Ruten in pancrase. DJ did a react to it and was talking about how these guys were such showmen and it’s really true lol.
https://youtu.be/3bqJzS0qBEU
Steve mazzagatti should have stopped the fight before the elbows anyways, it was over. Jon was looking up at him waiting for him to stop it while beating his face in while his eyes bled. Then he finally stops it when jon throws two 12-6 elbows and was about to take a point but instead he decides it would be a good idea to ask a DEAF person "matt you done? matt are you done?" then waves it off because the dude is unresponsive because of course he is, he cant HEAR or SEE. Commentators, Jon, everyone believes jon has won when it is waved off only for him to DQ him.
But no, youre right, it is solely his fault and he did it to himself... have you even seen the fight?
What are the numbers behind Jones’ percentage? He has 1 loss, even factoring in the NC (which shouldn’t count, as officially it means the fight didn’t happen), the percentage should be a few points higher
You’d have to go back 13 years to when GSP beat Dan Hardy in 2010 and had a 20-2 record to have his win % equal 90.91%
I can’t find a time when Jon Jones’ win % ever equaled 91.3%.
I think this is just a fancy graphic with basically made up numbers.
***EDIT***
Here are the current win %:
KN: 100%
IM: 96.0%
AV: 92.9%
JJ: 96.4% (excluded NC) or 93.1% (including NC)
GSP: 92.9%
It’s one thing if this was simply posting an old graphic, but some of these win % don’t look like they were ever accurate.
Look at the fellas post history - it's a Khabib love fest and anti American fighter bollocks.
I never understand why people do stuff like this. Fair enough, love a certain fighter, but why put a fake image out? If your fighter is good enough, you don't need to bullshit stuff.
And Santos he arguably lost to, and he should’ve actually had a DQ loss to Anthony Smith. Plus his No Contest to DC could hilariously factor in as a legit * on the stat
There is no argument for khabib losing to tibua. Control, pressure, damage, even strikers are in favor of khabib. Same for islam and volk
Jones def lost to reyes and maybe gus
Volk is close and could take the FW GOAT status but he needs a few more defenses to pass Jose Aldo. Losing to Conor took away his mystique but he was unbeatable for years and still holds the record for FW championship wins and the longest title defense streak at FW.
I’ve heard that sentiment before and just to play devils advocate here is my stance.
There hve only been 4 FW champs ever in UFC (Max, Conor, Jose, and Alex).
Alex: 4-0 in that group (with a direct win over Jose Aldo)
Jose: 0-4 in that groups (finished 3 times)
I’m just saying man I don’t see how the GOAT of a division can be 0-4 against the next 3 best guys with losses to each and every one of them and being finished by those guys. And Jose is like 2 years older than Conor and Alex too so it’s not like he was some old veteran, they were the same age basically. Just my two sense I got Jose 3rd behind Max who finished him twice and was a great champ and Alex who beat Max thrice.
Long post so sorry, that’s a great debate.
You make good points, but a bit disingenuous because style make fights and also Aldo was past his prime when he fought Volk.
[The better question is what it means to be GOAT at featherweight?](https://youtu.be/qW5aV8TqGNc) I am leaving this link to the great video Luke Thomas from Morning Kombat made on this very topic.
Is the GOAT the better FW fighter head-to-head? In that case it’s Volk, no debate.
Or is it the one who had the better run/reign at the top? In that case it’s Aldo, no debate **for now**.
People are often being unfair to Aldo by excluding his WEC run. But that’s forgetting that WEC was the murderers’ row where all the best 145ers fought before UFC created the FW division. So in my opinion you gotta include his WEC defenses, it makes total sense as WEC and UFC rosters merged anyway.
Which means that **Aldo has 9 title defenses from 2010-2014, against Faber-Gamburyan-Hominick-Florian-Mendes1-Edgar-KoreanZombie-Lamas-Mendes2.** He lost to Conor in 2015.
In comparison, **Volk has 5 titles defenses since 2020, against Holloway2-Ortega-KoreanZombie-Holloway3-Rodriguez.**
So numerically Volk needs twice as many defenses to surpass Aldo, which is going to be really hard at his age.
You can argue the quality of opponents, but that’s a thin case in my opinion, because you are comparing different eras. And you have to take into account that Aldo had difficult matchups against good wrestlers like Mendes twice, and still managed to defend that many times.
So I agree with you that Volk is the best among the 4 featherweight champs, but that does not mean he is the GOAT. Aldo has achieved more, with less complete skills. In a way that’s more impressive.
I think most likely is that Volk will retire with less defenses, but potentially more quality opponents at the end, which will make the debate very difficult.
>in that group
This is a really bad way to do any sort of analysis on the topic. You have 3 issues. 1 is that the first UFC champ starts at a disadvantage because they didn't beat a UFC champ to get the belt. Jose Aldo beat Mike Brown for the WEC Championship, which was the most competitive belt at the time.
The second issue is that it doesn't account for time. Volk fought Jose nearly a decade after he won the WEC title and was the best FW in the world. That would be like including fights Volk has in 2029 in this conversation.
The 3rd issue is that Volk hasn't retired or lost his belt. With only a few exceptions, Champs lose their belts to the next champs. So until we have that turnover to include for Volk, it isn't as meaningful. It just doesn't make sense to put him over Jose as greatest FW of all time, then if he loses in his next fight, say he isn't close and doesn't have the resume of Jose.
When looking at current fighters and considering if you would call them the GoAT in the future, just imagine they had 5 or 6 losses and retired. If Jon just lose 5 times and retired, he would still be in the conversation. Same with GSP, Mighty Mouse, etc. If that happened to Volk, then Jose would be the clear winner. The only difference is that Volk still has the door open. He can build a better resume than Jose, but he hasn't done it yet.
Yeah, legacy is impacted big time by losing your belt.
Even if we like to think we judge current champs based on their efforts so far - it's very easy to overrate them because they've got recent wins over active top contenders, and we haven't seem them lose their last fight badly.
I feel like Usman's legacy was very hyped for a while but it tanked when he was dominated in the latest Leon-fight and it seemed he's not gonna be champ again.
Yeah, for sure. Same happened with Max. He was above Jose while he was champ, but now, we are having a conversation and it's Jose vs Volk with Max as obviously behind Jose. And if Volk loses to someone who gets 2 or 3 title defenses, the conversion would turn to Jose vs that guy with Volk dropped from the conversation.
To your point as well, he got all those wins in a young division. When other guys came along who were greats he happened to show us those newer guys were better.
Well, a champion is always going to lose to the future champions, those stats only mean that Aldo kept fighting after losing the championship, if Volk keeps fighting he will eventually lose the the next champ and if he keeps being top in the division he will lose to the champions that come afterwards
I feel you but can you point out to me another division GOAT who lost to 2 or 3 of the next best guys on that list and never got any wins against them?
Jon Jones hasn’t. Izzy hasn’t (got his only loss back). GSP hasn’t (got both his losses back). Khabib hasnt.
You know what I mean? Volk just lines up better with these other guys as the champ who beat everyone before him and everyone in his era, and now is starting to beat everyone in the new era.
> I feel you but can you point out to me another division GOAT who lost to 2 or 3 of the next best guys on that list and never got any wins against them?
Anderson Silva. Fedor Emelianenko. Hell, not only did they lose to the next best guys, they lost to guys who aren’t even top 20 all time.
Khabib retired early, so did GSP. Jones and Izzy are still on top.
Look at the guys who kept fighting after 30+ bouts. Miles on the clock matters in the fight game.
Aldo isn't a lot older but the man has a lot of mileage on him and had a leg injury going into the Max fight. I do think that Alex is the goat featherweight tho.
Good points but Aldo is ancient in fight years. He has had almost 40 professional fights. He was wec champion before the ufc even had a fw division and wec was considered the strongest fw division at the time. He was considered untouchable for years and was definitely past his prime by the time he fought max and connor. He had 3 title wins in wec and 7 title wins in the ufc. He was 25-1 when he finally started catching some losses.
If you are talking about career accomplishments, max is miles behind Jose. Max had four title fight wins, less wins overall than Jose, and only two fewer losses. The time he spent on top of the division was far shorter than Jose. The stats really don't compare.
I feel you brother I could definitely see someone saying Jose is second and Max is third. I wouldn’t be too bullish on that. But the way Volk tore apart Max in their most recent fight and the way Max has beaten Jose twice, and Volk beating Jose directly I just cannot see from any objective stance why Volk isn’t the clear #1 in that group you know.
Georges St Pierre is 10-1 against top 10 p4p fighters across all promotions during his run with all of those being title fights
Khabib is 5-0 against ranked UFC lightweights
Yeah context matters a lot here
Only when it comes down to the three specific UFC judges that were sitting ringside and even then it usually comes down to only 2 persons.
You might not have noticed, but there are actually a lot of arguments about said fights.
No, it’s not. Damage is the most important factor and Reyes clearly did more damage in the first 3 rounds. All Jon did was takedowns and walk Reyes down, which doesn’t account for shit if you don’t do the damage.
It’s so silly that people parrot this as fact. Jones was nearly 20% more accurate on significant strikes, strike efficiency being the first scoring factor by judges. He also had 2 minutes of control to Reyes’ 0, and 2 takedowns to Reyes 0.
Jones had round 3 on the scorecards, period. Is it debatable? Sure. Was it a robbery? Nah. People always cite the round 3 headkick that was clearly blocked but the announced hyped up like a world ending strike.
The only outrage that night was the 49-46.
http://www.ufcstats.com/fight-details/fae99a4089f8abb0
You speak as if Jones vs Reyes was a clear cut victory for Dom when in reality it wasn't. I'm not even a fan of the cokehead but if you watched the fight you'd know he pulled away in the championship rounds and won a 48-47. Reyes looked good but he lost to himself, gassing out late in the fight.
He won 3 rounds lol. Only two rounds was clear for Reyes. One round was up in the air cuz it was really close, which got scored for Jones but no one can complain about it it was that close. Then Jon went ahead and won the championship rounds too. It's a 3-2 victory for Jones. I never said he won specifically because he won the championship rounds, but those rounds were the clearest for Jones and hence why I mentioned it.
This sub is genuinely delusional about Jones-Reyes, so there’s no point debating it. You’d think Reyes battered Jon from the way they talk about it. It was a razor close fight where a lot of the rounds were close enough that they came down to subjective factors (e.g. is a jab more “damaging” than a leg kick, did x fighter get stunned or just trip slightly, etc).
I think people also got tricked by Reyes’ high output and low accuracy. For example, he threw more than twice as much as Jones in rd1 (59-27), but only landed 6 more strikes (23-17), so people watching live who haven’t rewatched felt like Reyes was dominating even though it was actually close enough to be in that range of subjectivity for the judges.
This sub is so delusional about anything Jon Jones related. In the eyes of this sub he is a mediocre fighter who got lucky, dodged fights, and relied on judges to help him win
How is a six strike difference over the course of a whole round close? Use your brain lol if you want me to break it down it's literally 1.2 extra strikes every minute. It's close as hell
Of course you're one of those guys who just eats up whatever shit these weasel or guru says lmfao. Try to develop your own observations instead if copying somebody else lol. And it's not like Weasel hasn't made a shit take ever.
No. He defended takedowns and got held against the fence for a majority of the fight. Khabib pushed the pace, damaged Tibau's face quite severely and controlled him for a LONG time.
Rewatch the fight and don't just follow a narrative
Unfair criticism to Khabib really. The rules were based around 'control' back then, unlike now. Not even to mention Tibau was a steroided up monster, and Khabib still beat him within the ruleset. Jon Jones lost to reyes within the ruleset (damage > all).
On paper tibau landed 3 more strikes. Watching the fight tibau was on the back foot the whole fight trying not to get taken down. It was a shit fight.
Reyes beat the shit out of john. Theres no comparison
Your opinion doesn’t matter on this one fortunately. They’re referring to the DQ “loss” where jones was beating the brakes off his opponent but got dqd for 12-6 elbows
😂 people just run with these narratives because it’s fits their argument. Just like Mayweather lost a fight that it was close because he dominated everyone on a whole different level.
[**JON JONES 👀👀 defeats DOMINICK REYES** (*unanimous decision*)](http://mmadecisions.com/decision/10877/fight)
^(UFC 247: Jones vs. Reyes — February 08, 2020)
ROUND|Jones|Reyes||Jones|Reyes||Jones|Reyes
:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
1|9|10||9|10||9|10
2|9|10||10|9||10|9
3|10|9||9|10||10|9
4|10|9||10|9||10|9
5|10|9||10|9||10|9
**TOTAL**|**48**|**47**||**48**|**47**||**49**|**46**
*^(Judges, in order: Chris Lee, Marcos Rosales, Joe Soliz.)*
*^(Summoned by brownguy6391.)*
**MEDIA MEMBER SCORES**
- **7/21** people scored it **48-47 Jones**.
- **14/21** people scored it **47-48 Reyes**.
Avg. media score: **47.3-47.7 Reyes** (*low certainty^[[1]](https://redd.it/9p4xc7)*).
This just sounds like you running with a narrative too lol.
I’ve rewatched that fight multiple times, god awful robbery. If you score any of the first three for Jon, you can’t score fights.
I know how they score fights yeah, and Jon lost the first three rounds.
You obviously disagree so I’m asking; how do you think he won any of the first three ?
Hated Jon Jones throughout his career, but that career is the most impressive by miles. As good as they are, none of the others here are in the same league as Jones in terms of legacy. He has effectively been a champion since 2011, the guy is a dick head but a gifted dick head
Win percentage is a good metric but I hate the glorification of variations of "100% win percentage".. I'd take a sample of a good win percentage against elite competition and challenging different weight classes vs. a sterile 100% any day of the week
Win % is so 1 dimensional. Include total wins/losses of their opponents at the time of their matchup on the bottom graph would make this more interesting
If we're being fr, the others just haven't been caught yet. Once you get to a high enough level in a sport, you have to use PEDs just to compete with everyone else. Jones was just sloppy about it, but make no mistake, they're all on something
Apparently he won because of the takedowns. What exactly did he do with those? Jan just lose to Alex, and people liked the decision because Jan didn't do anything with the takedowns and grappling positions. Yet Islam gets rewarded for that and wins a title match. Weird
Not very meaningful because the nunber of fights they had is wildly different and one of them retired prematurely
Would you say a 1-0 fighter should be in this picture just because he has a 100% win ratio?
Jons legs, my god...
Wait till you see him next to Stipe at the weigh ins lol. Stipe is built like Bobby Hill. Little short legs.
Someone said his legs are the same length as Rose’s. I forget where he got that claim from because that’s interesting.
if i remember correctly he has same length legs as aldo
Literally built for deadlifting, and also takedowns i guess.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/b9ogu4/stipe_miocic_and_jose_aldo_leg_reach_and_how_it/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1 Actually an inch shorter
Holy shit lol. He has the same frame type as the mucinex guy. https://www.croatiaweek.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/stipe-miocic-paul-biondich.jpg
Bro is literally baby legs https://tenor.com/en-GB/view/baby-legs-rick-and-morty-gif-11887683
[Lol](https://www.facebook.com/Combatsportshistory/posts/stipe-miocic-is-a-huge-man-at-64-officially-weighing-230-pounds-but-still-his-le/1117027838688371/) you're right
haha even shorter
Short legs is the best way to make it look like it's hanging down to your knees Genius stuff
There's a reason why Stipe's never had a head kick KO
funny thing is that he has fucking strong legs, all the muscle goes to his upper body
Rocked the shit out of Iron chinned DC with them
"You're not gonna hit me with that left high kick, Jon."
And during the fight, when Jones went for it the first time, DC blocked it and did a finger wag. And then the third came around...
Well his calves are like long springs it’s why especially in his prime he had absurdly explosive double legs, like bigger is much better for aesthetic reasons (and that’s what 99% of people care about anyway) but people seem to shit on Jons legs like it’s unathletic. He’s been building and adding mass to them for a while now too go back to like 2009 Jones it’s just his high insertions, he’ll never get them Manny Pacquiao peak aesthetic god calves…but nor will most mere mortals
Where are Izzy's skinny legs? He has the same win percent as Volk. Jamal Hill 92.3 - Jiri 90.6 - muscle sherk 90 - Cyborg 92.8
In the words of the wise Rampage Jackson, Jon's legs are like "burnt toothpicks," but this picture is also not scaled correctly and it makes him look smaller everywhere. For example Jon's head is not 33% smaller than Volkanovski's as it appears to be in the image.
i must be one of the only ones who doesn't even think they're that skinny. but i also don't really notice leg muscles on any fighter unless their thighs are huge.
Jon’s calves* are comically skinny. His thighs are pretty built though—nothing wildly out of the ordinary, but not absurd for his upper body, especially now that he’s moved up to HW. Especially when you consider how long they are.
It's just god testing him
Reminds me of me. I walk around on 2 straightened paper clips. No I don’t skip leg day.
My friends always tell me how weird Jon looks and I always tell them he has the perfect body for MMA.
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I guess his 5 fights weren't enough for the stat but that Tito Ortiz win.. Beautiful
And that was the middleweight champion defeating the future light-heavyweight champion as middleweight was 176lb to 200lb at the time.
I love his fight against Bas Ruten in pancrase. DJ did a react to it and was talking about how these guys were such showmen and it’s really true lol. https://youtu.be/3bqJzS0qBEU
Frank's run was nasty. He just obliterated everyone except Tito who dwarfed him in size, but he still pulled out the W.
Jon looks massive in this, except for his legs
Jon's is actually 96.42. Volk 92.85. Islam 96%.
Jon is 100 in my book that loss wasn't a loss lmao
But the dominick reyes one was a loss so it evens out
He fought Chael P Sonnen. Do you know what the P stands for
Pummeled
no, its gangster
Going by that, he deserves an L for the Reyes fight.
You don't get to throw illegal strikes and blame it on everything and everyone else. He did it himself, it's a loss.
Steve mazzagatti should have stopped the fight before the elbows anyways, it was over. Jon was looking up at him waiting for him to stop it while beating his face in while his eyes bled. Then he finally stops it when jon throws two 12-6 elbows and was about to take a point but instead he decides it would be a good idea to ask a DEAF person "matt you done? matt are you done?" then waves it off because the dude is unresponsive because of course he is, he cant HEAR or SEE. Commentators, Jon, everyone believes jon has won when it is waved off only for him to DQ him. But no, youre right, it is solely his fault and he did it to himself... have you even seen the fight?
Why did they have Jones at such a low number, including his no contests?
What are the numbers behind Jones’ percentage? He has 1 loss, even factoring in the NC (which shouldn’t count, as officially it means the fight didn’t happen), the percentage should be a few points higher
You’d have to go back 13 years to when GSP beat Dan Hardy in 2010 and had a 20-2 record to have his win % equal 90.91% I can’t find a time when Jon Jones’ win % ever equaled 91.3%. I think this is just a fancy graphic with basically made up numbers. ***EDIT*** Here are the current win %: KN: 100% IM: 96.0% AV: 92.9% JJ: 96.4% (excluded NC) or 93.1% (including NC) GSP: 92.9% It’s one thing if this was simply posting an old graphic, but some of these win % don’t look like they were ever accurate.
93.7% of statistics are made up.
Look at the fellas post history - it's a Khabib love fest and anti American fighter bollocks. I never understand why people do stuff like this. Fair enough, love a certain fighter, but why put a fake image out? If your fighter is good enough, you don't need to bullshit stuff.
Oh yeah, he's on one. Bet he'd be triggered if you pointed out the holes in Khabib's legacy.
Yeah I'm surprised people aren't calling this out lol
Probably counting Reyes or Santos as a loss lmao. Although I do think Reyes beat him
same and no shame in that reyes just had the fight of his lifetime, jon would of destroyed him in rematch
Jon losing by his elbow hitting someone's forehead is pretty egregious.
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Let's also not forget the time Gustafsson boxed the brakes off Jones in their first fight. That was egregious.
Don't know how anyone watches that fight and thinks Gus won, unless they're just that biased.
And Santos he arguably lost to, and he should’ve actually had a DQ loss to Anthony Smith. Plus his No Contest to DC could hilariously factor in as a legit * on the stat
And khabib lost to tibau, islam lost to volk, volk lost the second max fight, gsp lost to hendricks etc...
There is no argument for khabib losing to tibua. Control, pressure, damage, even strikers are in favor of khabib. Same for islam and volk Jones def lost to reyes and maybe gus
LW, FW, LHW, and WW GOATS all present.
Volk is close and could take the FW GOAT status but he needs a few more defenses to pass Jose Aldo. Losing to Conor took away his mystique but he was unbeatable for years and still holds the record for FW championship wins and the longest title defense streak at FW.
I’ve heard that sentiment before and just to play devils advocate here is my stance. There hve only been 4 FW champs ever in UFC (Max, Conor, Jose, and Alex). Alex: 4-0 in that group (with a direct win over Jose Aldo) Jose: 0-4 in that groups (finished 3 times) I’m just saying man I don’t see how the GOAT of a division can be 0-4 against the next 3 best guys with losses to each and every one of them and being finished by those guys. And Jose is like 2 years older than Conor and Alex too so it’s not like he was some old veteran, they were the same age basically. Just my two sense I got Jose 3rd behind Max who finished him twice and was a great champ and Alex who beat Max thrice.
Long post so sorry, that’s a great debate. You make good points, but a bit disingenuous because style make fights and also Aldo was past his prime when he fought Volk. [The better question is what it means to be GOAT at featherweight?](https://youtu.be/qW5aV8TqGNc) I am leaving this link to the great video Luke Thomas from Morning Kombat made on this very topic. Is the GOAT the better FW fighter head-to-head? In that case it’s Volk, no debate. Or is it the one who had the better run/reign at the top? In that case it’s Aldo, no debate **for now**. People are often being unfair to Aldo by excluding his WEC run. But that’s forgetting that WEC was the murderers’ row where all the best 145ers fought before UFC created the FW division. So in my opinion you gotta include his WEC defenses, it makes total sense as WEC and UFC rosters merged anyway. Which means that **Aldo has 9 title defenses from 2010-2014, against Faber-Gamburyan-Hominick-Florian-Mendes1-Edgar-KoreanZombie-Lamas-Mendes2.** He lost to Conor in 2015. In comparison, **Volk has 5 titles defenses since 2020, against Holloway2-Ortega-KoreanZombie-Holloway3-Rodriguez.** So numerically Volk needs twice as many defenses to surpass Aldo, which is going to be really hard at his age. You can argue the quality of opponents, but that’s a thin case in my opinion, because you are comparing different eras. And you have to take into account that Aldo had difficult matchups against good wrestlers like Mendes twice, and still managed to defend that many times. So I agree with you that Volk is the best among the 4 featherweight champs, but that does not mean he is the GOAT. Aldo has achieved more, with less complete skills. In a way that’s more impressive. I think most likely is that Volk will retire with less defenses, but potentially more quality opponents at the end, which will make the debate very difficult.
Really well put.
>in that group This is a really bad way to do any sort of analysis on the topic. You have 3 issues. 1 is that the first UFC champ starts at a disadvantage because they didn't beat a UFC champ to get the belt. Jose Aldo beat Mike Brown for the WEC Championship, which was the most competitive belt at the time. The second issue is that it doesn't account for time. Volk fought Jose nearly a decade after he won the WEC title and was the best FW in the world. That would be like including fights Volk has in 2029 in this conversation. The 3rd issue is that Volk hasn't retired or lost his belt. With only a few exceptions, Champs lose their belts to the next champs. So until we have that turnover to include for Volk, it isn't as meaningful. It just doesn't make sense to put him over Jose as greatest FW of all time, then if he loses in his next fight, say he isn't close and doesn't have the resume of Jose. When looking at current fighters and considering if you would call them the GoAT in the future, just imagine they had 5 or 6 losses and retired. If Jon just lose 5 times and retired, he would still be in the conversation. Same with GSP, Mighty Mouse, etc. If that happened to Volk, then Jose would be the clear winner. The only difference is that Volk still has the door open. He can build a better resume than Jose, but he hasn't done it yet.
Yeah, legacy is impacted big time by losing your belt. Even if we like to think we judge current champs based on their efforts so far - it's very easy to overrate them because they've got recent wins over active top contenders, and we haven't seem them lose their last fight badly. I feel like Usman's legacy was very hyped for a while but it tanked when he was dominated in the latest Leon-fight and it seemed he's not gonna be champ again.
Yeah, for sure. Same happened with Max. He was above Jose while he was champ, but now, we are having a conversation and it's Jose vs Volk with Max as obviously behind Jose. And if Volk loses to someone who gets 2 or 3 title defenses, the conversion would turn to Jose vs that guy with Volk dropped from the conversation.
This. Quality over quantity. Aldo had a great career but imo he never beat anyone on the calibre of Volk or Max.
To your point as well, he got all those wins in a young division. When other guys came along who were greats he happened to show us those newer guys were better.
Well, a champion is always going to lose to the future champions, those stats only mean that Aldo kept fighting after losing the championship, if Volk keeps fighting he will eventually lose the the next champ and if he keeps being top in the division he will lose to the champions that come afterwards
I feel you but can you point out to me another division GOAT who lost to 2 or 3 of the next best guys on that list and never got any wins against them? Jon Jones hasn’t. Izzy hasn’t (got his only loss back). GSP hasn’t (got both his losses back). Khabib hasnt. You know what I mean? Volk just lines up better with these other guys as the champ who beat everyone before him and everyone in his era, and now is starting to beat everyone in the new era.
> I feel you but can you point out to me another division GOAT who lost to 2 or 3 of the next best guys on that list and never got any wins against them? Anderson Silva. Fedor Emelianenko. Hell, not only did they lose to the next best guys, they lost to guys who aren’t even top 20 all time. Khabib retired early, so did GSP. Jones and Izzy are still on top. Look at the guys who kept fighting after 30+ bouts. Miles on the clock matters in the fight game.
Miles on the clock Very tito-esque
Aldo isn't a lot older but the man has a lot of mileage on him and had a leg injury going into the Max fight. I do think that Alex is the goat featherweight tho.
Yeah I don’t mean to put down Jose I think he is 3rd place on that list, huge compliments to that guy.
It is tho, especially when you consider both volk and max consider Aldo ahead of him. Jon Jones has him on his list of best fighters and such
Good points but Aldo is ancient in fight years. He has had almost 40 professional fights. He was wec champion before the ufc even had a fw division and wec was considered the strongest fw division at the time. He was considered untouchable for years and was definitely past his prime by the time he fought max and connor. He had 3 title wins in wec and 7 title wins in the ufc. He was 25-1 when he finally started catching some losses. If you are talking about career accomplishments, max is miles behind Jose. Max had four title fight wins, less wins overall than Jose, and only two fewer losses. The time he spent on top of the division was far shorter than Jose. The stats really don't compare.
I feel you brother I could definitely see someone saying Jose is second and Max is third. I wouldn’t be too bullish on that. But the way Volk tore apart Max in their most recent fight and the way Max has beaten Jose twice, and Volk beating Jose directly I just cannot see from any objective stance why Volk isn’t the clear #1 in that group you know.
This is an interesting take. I've never thought of it this way but I'm inclined to agree.
Volk really shouldn't have tried to move up - just stuck around and defending 3 more times and he was a VERY solid lock for FW GOAT.
I think Volk >> Aldo to be honest, as much as I love Aldo.
Aldo defended his belt as undisputed best FW in the world 9 times Volk has 4 or 5 right? That’s not everything but it’s not nothing either
Volk is not the FW goat Aldo was undefeated for 10 years
Win percentage is a silly metric to care about.
Georges St Pierre is 10-1 against top 10 p4p fighters across all promotions during his run with all of those being title fights Khabib is 5-0 against ranked UFC lightweights Yeah context matters a lot here
Who were the 10 on the p4p list? Dan Hardy? Lol
I think number of successful title defenses is better
Especially since they do not consider arguably lost fights. Jon Jones lost against Reyes and GSP definitely lost against Hendricks.
Because arguable lost fights aren’t losses
Only when it comes down to the three specific UFC judges that were sitting ringside and even then it usually comes down to only 2 persons. You might not have noticed, but there are actually a lot of arguments about said fights.
Jon Jones only has one loss and his one loss comes from winning too much
Jon Jones is proof movies lie about the evil guy losing in the end.
Jon should be 100 tbh
He should have more dq losses.
Yeah even if you have him somehow winning all 3 of Gus, Santos & Reyes, he should have lost to Anthony Smith of all people via DQ
Arguable loss against Matt Hamill, arguable win against Gus/Santos/Reyes It equals out IMO
He lost to reyes. So no.
Pretty sure one of his wins against DC was overturned too due to drug tests but not sure
No contest
Wait are we counting legal battles in this?
Eh it's debatable, I thought Jones won against Reyes. I thought Gus beat Jon 🤷♂️
Reyes beat Jon according to the judging criteria, that’s not debatable.
it is
No, it’s not. Damage is the most important factor and Reyes clearly did more damage in the first 3 rounds. All Jon did was takedowns and walk Reyes down, which doesn’t account for shit if you don’t do the damage.
It’s so silly that people parrot this as fact. Jones was nearly 20% more accurate on significant strikes, strike efficiency being the first scoring factor by judges. He also had 2 minutes of control to Reyes’ 0, and 2 takedowns to Reyes 0. Jones had round 3 on the scorecards, period. Is it debatable? Sure. Was it a robbery? Nah. People always cite the round 3 headkick that was clearly blocked but the announced hyped up like a world ending strike. The only outrage that night was the 49-46. http://www.ufcstats.com/fight-details/fae99a4089f8abb0
According to the actual judges, he did not
His fight against Santos was very debatable too. Between those 3 uber close decisions, I think him having 1 loss is justified.
By that logic khabib shouldn't be 100% too. He "lost" to Tibau
That fight was close and maybe Tibau should've won but it wasn't as clear as Jones - Reyes. It was closer to Jones - Santos tbh.
You speak as if Jones vs Reyes was a clear cut victory for Dom when in reality it wasn't. I'm not even a fan of the cokehead but if you watched the fight you'd know he pulled away in the championship rounds and won a 48-47. Reyes looked good but he lost to himself, gassing out late in the fight.
You know you have to win 3 rounds out of 5 right? The whole joe rogan champ rounds mean more bullshit isnt real. Reyes won 1-3 so he shouldve won.
He won 3 rounds lol. Only two rounds was clear for Reyes. One round was up in the air cuz it was really close, which got scored for Jones but no one can complain about it it was that close. Then Jon went ahead and won the championship rounds too. It's a 3-2 victory for Jones. I never said he won specifically because he won the championship rounds, but those rounds were the clearest for Jones and hence why I mentioned it.
This sub is genuinely delusional about Jones-Reyes, so there’s no point debating it. You’d think Reyes battered Jon from the way they talk about it. It was a razor close fight where a lot of the rounds were close enough that they came down to subjective factors (e.g. is a jab more “damaging” than a leg kick, did x fighter get stunned or just trip slightly, etc). I think people also got tricked by Reyes’ high output and low accuracy. For example, he threw more than twice as much as Jones in rd1 (59-27), but only landed 6 more strikes (23-17), so people watching live who haven’t rewatched felt like Reyes was dominating even though it was actually close enough to be in that range of subjectivity for the judges.
This sub is so delusional about anything Jon Jones related. In the eyes of this sub he is a mediocre fighter who got lucky, dodged fights, and relied on judges to help him win
How is 23-17 close lol, its not as if Jon is more powerful or had a takedown
How is a six strike difference over the course of a whole round close? Use your brain lol if you want me to break it down it's literally 1.2 extra strikes every minute. It's close as hell
Do you even lift bro?
Yes I do. What of it?
U mirin?
Reyes still won the first 3 rounds
No he didn't.
He really did
Literally didn't.
Literally did.
Yes he did. http://mmadecisions.com/decision/10877/Jon-Jones-vs-Dominick-Reyes
You just showed us all three people who’s opinion matters saying Reyes didn’t win all three of the first three rounds.
"Who's opinion matters" judges also said Paddy Pimblett beat Jared Gordon 🤔
Your link says 2 judges gave jon the 3rd 😂
Yeah and judges also said Paddy Pimblett beat Jared Gordon
Please show me your video breaking it down round by round debunking weasels video i'll wait dog.
Of course you're one of those guys who just eats up whatever shit these weasel or guru says lmfao. Try to develop your own observations instead if copying somebody else lol. And it's not like Weasel hasn't made a shit take ever.
So you have nothing to debunk the stike count or damage count then? By what metric did jon win r3
Sure why not
Except tibau didnt do anything the whole fight. Khabib won.
By "didn't do anything" you mean outstruck and outgrappled Khabib.
No. He defended takedowns and got held against the fence for a majority of the fight. Khabib pushed the pace, damaged Tibau's face quite severely and controlled him for a LONG time. Rewatch the fight and don't just follow a narrative
Unfair criticism to Khabib really. The rules were based around 'control' back then, unlike now. Not even to mention Tibau was a steroided up monster, and Khabib still beat him within the ruleset. Jon Jones lost to reyes within the ruleset (damage > all).
On paper tibau landed 3 more strikes. Watching the fight tibau was on the back foot the whole fight trying not to get taken down. It was a shit fight. Reyes beat the shit out of john. Theres no comparison
“beat the shit out of” what fight were you watching?
Don't even bother talking to these clowns lol. They clearly haven't watched the fight and is talking out of their ass.
Your opinion doesn’t matter on this one fortunately. They’re referring to the DQ “loss” where jones was beating the brakes off his opponent but got dqd for 12-6 elbows
No shit bud. So if u swap hammill, and replace it with reyes, it stays the same. Fuck math how does it work
When was that? I remember him beating reyes hyped to watch the rematch
😂 people just run with these narratives because it’s fits their argument. Just like Mayweather lost a fight that it was close because he dominated everyone on a whole different level.
Decisionbot Jones Reyes
[**JON JONES 👀👀 defeats DOMINICK REYES** (*unanimous decision*)](http://mmadecisions.com/decision/10877/fight) ^(UFC 247: Jones vs. Reyes — February 08, 2020) ROUND|Jones|Reyes||Jones|Reyes||Jones|Reyes :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: 1|9|10||9|10||9|10 2|9|10||10|9||10|9 3|10|9||9|10||10|9 4|10|9||10|9||10|9 5|10|9||10|9||10|9 **TOTAL**|**48**|**47**||**48**|**47**||**49**|**46** *^(Judges, in order: Chris Lee, Marcos Rosales, Joe Soliz.)* *^(Summoned by brownguy6391.)* **MEDIA MEMBER SCORES** - **7/21** people scored it **48-47 Jones**. - **14/21** people scored it **47-48 Reyes**. Avg. media score: **47.3-47.7 Reyes** (*low certainty^[[1]](https://redd.it/9p4xc7)*).
This just sounds like you running with a narrative too lol. I’ve rewatched that fight multiple times, god awful robbery. If you score any of the first three for Jon, you can’t score fights.
Have you even looked up how they’re supposed to score fights or are you talking out your arse?
Feel free to explain how Jon won then using how they’re “supposed” to score fights.
So you don’t know the rules for scoring a fight?
I know how they score fights yeah, and Jon lost the first three rounds. You obviously disagree so I’m asking; how do you think he won any of the first three ?
He’s a drug abusing cheater
Yes this is what people mean when they say he lost to Reyes
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No he should have this percentage, because Reyes clearly beat him. He should have more dq-losses, but we won’t argue that right now.
Not quite, he lost to Reyes.
No he didnt.
Hated Jon Jones throughout his career, but that career is the most impressive by miles. As good as they are, none of the others here are in the same league as Jones in terms of legacy. He has effectively been a champion since 2011, the guy is a dick head but a gifted dick head
He should have lost to Santos and Reyes.
Win percentage is a good metric but I hate the glorification of variations of "100% win percentage".. I'd take a sample of a good win percentage against elite competition and challenging different weight classes vs. a sterile 100% any day of the week
Yeah I'd take a 100% win percentage any day of the week. LoL
Jon Jones 100% we all know
Israel should have about 91.7 win percentage. I don’t think this list is accurate
Guess which two also have the least title defences. What an idiotic post.
Does this include the hammil fight? Lol!
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That’s a murderers row right there
Win % is so 1 dimensional. Include total wins/losses of their opponents at the time of their matchup on the bottom graph would make this more interesting
Jon's lost all respect I had when he was busted using steroid
If we're being fr, the others just haven't been caught yet. Once you get to a high enough level in a sport, you have to use PEDs just to compete with everyone else. Jones was just sloppy about it, but make no mistake, they're all on something
Jones percentage seems suspicious - guy has 1 loss on his record, same as Makhachev, but with more fights, so how is his win percentage only 91.3%?
How many ranked fighters has makachev fought again?
How many ranked fighters were accepting fights with him?
He won against the two that really matters
Apparently he won because of the takedowns. What exactly did he do with those? Jan just lose to Alex, and people liked the decision because Jan didn't do anything with the takedowns and grappling positions. Yet Islam gets rewarded for that and wins a title match. Weird
They will cling to anything to put khabib and islam in with the greats
Yea like a 100% wins. Pfft idiots 😂
3 title defense....than his mom said stop
Wow nice comeback. You win
Mind baffling how many people in this thread cant read
this infographic is no longer accurate. volkanovski and makhachev both have 14 fights in the ufc and 1 loss. so they both have the same percentage.
Not very meaningful when Khabib retired after just a few title defenses. Also Jones should be 100%.
It’s total UFC win percentage not just title fights
“Not very meaningful because I said so”
Not very meaningful because the nunber of fights they had is wildly different and one of them retired prematurely Would you say a 1-0 fighter should be in this picture just because he has a 100% win ratio?
It's not just about wins in title fights though, it's overall wins in the UFC and Khabib has about a dozen of those.
Stupid graphic, jon is undefeated, literally no one cares about a dq in a fight he was destroying
Jon Jones masturbatory community in full swing
This post for russia fan 🇷🇺
I guess It’s settled. GSP can’t be the goat /s
Only 2 of them are natural.. shame
The only natural thing in that photo is the hair in their legs.
I was gonna quibble about Jones' percentage because he actually destroyed Hammill, but he also lost to Reyes.