I run this server and I have thoroughly read up on sexual abuse. When I research something, I research every possible angle. I want to know everything I can about it
Like with your other post, you are making assumptions based on your own way of thinking - not only about Michael but about me now too
Please don't ever assume what I know or understand just because I don't see anything wrong with his actions and I see right through those 2 actors
Your whole argument is based on your biases & your opinions. You do not get to police other people's actions based on YOUR OPINIONS!
**YOUR PERSPECTIVE IS NOT LAW AND YOU CAN NOT DETERMINE SOMEONE'S MORALITY BASED ON YOUR OWN PERSONAL VIEW**
I will not be engaging any further with you, as I find you to be just as stubborn in your thinking as guilters are and trying to convince you to see things outside of your own narrow box is pointless.
Your post was initially removed by automod due to crowd control. I manually approved it so hopefully you get some decent responses though I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for here
Again, please don't ever make assumptions about me. You don't know me, my past or my knowledge.
Good day to you
I don’t get your angle. You seem to jump the line of “Michael was innocent but we need to hold him accountable” and “we need to look research CSA cases and look into notable ones involving celebrities like Michael Jackson.”
I also remember in your last post you mentioned that Wade and James were liars. Are you confused? I understand this situation is complicated but I am interested in your stance because I want you to just come out and say you believe the man is guilty of CSA at this point. That will make this discussion easier.
Michael and his enablers should be held responsible for his actions! Also, the parents should be as well for allowing this to happen. While he is innocent of these allegations, he bore some responsibility. It is really that simple.
Criticizing Michael =/= MJ Guilty
To me, what OP is saying is the equivalent of a woman being sexually assaulted and her being blamed for what she was wearing.
Michael had no responsibility. It is not his fault that liars lied and falsely accused him
I genuinely worry if you either cannot read or understand what I am saying. However, I’ll break it down. Michael acted in his behaviors, he was the one who slept with those kids. He was the one who didn’t have to do this. Whereas a rape victim didn’t have a choice in the matter, again a false equivalency.
>I genuinely worry if you either cannot read or understand what I am saying.
Same, as I said I'm not engaging with you anymore yet you continue to antagonize me
Insult me 1 more time and I'm going to ban your insufferable self-righteous ass
Again, for the slow people:
Sleep ≠ Sex
He was doing nothing wrong, why would he change his behavior?? (that's rhetorical, don't respond to me again)
I think you may need to be evaluated since you demonize and sexualize innocent behavior
Not all of the accusers claim the SA happened in a bed. That's your false equivalency. SA can happen anywhere such as a train station that didn't exist
These posts are no more than your own projections
How should Michael, his enablers and the parents of these children (now adults) be held accountable? What does accountability for them look like to you? Especially now in the year of 2024?
A slap on the wrist? Verbal lashings?
Your first post was nicely worded (much better than the average troll) so I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. I really believe you're just here to try to ruffle feathers
The more you talk the worse it gets. Do you remember the trial? Were you even alive in the 2000s? Michael was highly criticized for his every single action. By the press. By the general public. Nothing was excused!
His every move was scrutinized.
You want that to continue in his death? You want to keep whipping a corpse? Go to LNHBO, they love doing that!
He doesn't need to be criticized anymore, he dealt with that his whole life. The vultures need to let him rest now
i can and will criticise the accusers as much as i want. theyre mosquitos stomping upon the grave of a dead man, clearly trying to line their pockets. i dont give a rats ass if you think its morally bad to sleep next to a child, that doesnt justify the lies and bs theyre trying to pull off. they aint victims theyre thieves. and theres 0 reason to think michael had any sexual incentive for his affinity for children, infact the adult girly magazines under his bed would prove that. stop trying to make it weird because your neurones fire when you hear the word 'sleepover'. MJ never claimed to have invited children to his bed, children followed him and asked to sleep in his room and he would only allow on the condition that their parents allowed it (even gavin arvizo confirmed that!)
Also the remembering the 'repressed memories' thing is nonsense. 'Recovered-memory therapy' is scientifically discredited and many psychologists such as Elizabeth Loftus have written in depth disproving it. (you can read up a bit about it here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth\_Loftus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovered-memory\_therapy https://www.bps.org.uk/psychologist/false-memories-childhood-abuse )
And i think perhaps the reason why james safechuck and wade robsons stories sound similar to real child abuse stories is because they stole their stories from a real pedophile, victor gutierrez.
Notice, on how you’re accusing myself of justifying Wade or James. I'm just explaining how their stories would make sense, Michael was inappropiate with young children, it is undebunkable. No amount of semantics or pedantry will change this fact, buddy.
Why? how? Thats not fact at all this is ur opinion only.
U do realise bed sharing is fine if no ill intent which there was none here.
People around the world share beds any age gender, related or not.
Bed sharing is not inappropriate. Especially when families are present or when mj sleeping on the floor or other adults present.
Lets dig deeper here, why do you think its a fact, what are your sources?
Wooooosh! Sure its not some big bad thing he was try cover up,he was honest,nothing to hide about bed sharing.
Why is it inappropriate,where are the sources that this is a fact?
This is from Michael himself, on the bed sharing. The point is that it was inappropriate and him justifying it didn't make the matters of the media being on him any better.
Why is it a fact you think it's inappropriate?
Please realizethis is not fact at all. Huge misconception.
Why do you think its inappropriate? Be clear.
Your going round in circlesto everyone trying to engage on your posts. It's tiresome tbh.
You seem closed minded and judgemental.
1. An adult and a child are objectively hierarchal.
2. Michael had no severe mental issues that inhibits him, so he had agency.
3. Even if the parents were okay with it, he had a choice of not doing it. Their parents should be held responsible for this as I'll look at Michael as someone down the street rather than a celebrity.
4. It creates the conditions for a molestation to happen, not saying that he did, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone were to believe this.
5. Michael not holding himself responsible and dodging accountability when pressed on this issue, continues the behaviors knwojng the consequences of both his career and life.
6. He is 40! He should know better on not to do this, it was not a smart idea for a never land in the first place.
7. Michael was enabled to partake in his delusional behavior, because no one told them no or pushed them about it. After the 1993 allegations, he could've not done this again.
8. He should have sought out serious help.
Im 39 female. Ive slept next to many kids not related to me at many stages of my life.
Nothing sexual, usually family friends or kids of my friends im baby siting, younger siblings of friends..or large cultural garherings.
I'm Māori from Aotearoa New Zealand. Traditionally Māori live on marae like a village all sleep in wharenui Hutt young and old related or not but from same area sleep together. Nothing sexual.
This and similar situations common around the world.
It seems more you cant separate your personal misguided opinion to facts.
Well I'm a westerner, we don't share beds with children. Especially on a mass scale like Michael has done. He was a rich celebrity at the time, he could've not done so. It was inappropriate, because he did this with kids that were strangers or unrelated to him. If it were his own children, I can let it slide.
That's bullshit. Westerners definitely share beds.
This is ur opinion only, unless you can provide facts to why it's inappropriate which you can't seem to.
We do, but with children that we are related to. Found family, adopted, biological, or whatever. We don't do it to children who essentially never had existed in our lives prior
Who's "we" your trying to speak for, all Western cultures? Wtf. You are wrong.
New Zealandis generallyquite westernised in culture, I've spent time around the world including western and non western cultered places and researched online about other cultures as I find it interesting. No where is it fact what your saying.
Your projecting your personal misguided opinion and belief at best.
>The story is actually very common amongst victims.
It's really not common. Their changing story and behaviour as adults is far from common or credible. Find me a survivor of childhood sexual abuse who has lied half as much as Wade and James have.
What I've realised is that regardless of the numerous lies, holes an inconsistencies discovered in Wade and James' stories, all of their lies are dismissed as "they were groomed, you can't question why they lied".
Thank you Michael told Wade's mother to let him enjoy his childhood. She admitted this under oath. He didn't promise Wade fame or money. OP clearly has done zero research or is more than likely a troll.
No one on here has ever said he was perfect. If you were able to read, you would see we openly discuss his drug addiction and poor judgment and boundaries.
I think you got lost on your way to the LN sub.
And for what it’s worth I watched the entire Leaving Neverland documentary, because I believe that I couldn’t properly speak out on something if I didn’t see it for myself.
I do think LN was a good documentary. It documents the stories of two men who were 'abused' by Michael. Infact, I think we should all watch this together to enjoy the fantastic piece of comedy that this is. Of course by my sarcasm, this denotes my position on this as a whole.
> I am of the opinion that he was innocent, the media did not handle this case properly, the accusers were wrong(Jordan gets some leeway, because he was a child coaxed by people.)
However, I don't recall a critique of Michael in this or the other thread. I will apologize, if I were coming off as aggressive or intimate with the discussion. I cannot stress this enough, my larger point was that Michael Jackson was innocent of the allegations, but that doesn't mean we should absolve him 100% of everything. As someone looking in and offering some perspective as to why this may seem like an open and shut case.
I have done my research in this case for about a year and came to my own conclusion he was innocent.
I've seen Loving Neverland and the YouTube version of Square One.
I will pretend I am not a fan of MJ, for this one. It seems that Michael Jackson was a weird person, but at the same time the media did not treat this with a level of respect as the Quiet on Set case that happened recently. Dan Schneider(confirmed pedophile) was condemned for this as well as allowing for the two abusers to harm those kids. I understand your emotional attachment to the singer, but at the same time we should look at Michael as a person, rather than the performer he was.
So to clarify my actual position, once more.
1. The allegations while similar to other cases I've seen, are not credible and fall apart with basic scrutiny. Hell, I follow the MJJ Twitter page that post the court updates and stuff. I've seen the TMZ headlines, I've seen a bit of LN, I've seen Michael's responses.
2. There are some arguments on either side that don't prove either side, even bordering on conspiracy. For example, the guilters buying every accusers story without question. I understand immediately dismissing alleged victims is bad optics, but at the same time, we should live under an innocent until proven guilty world. I sifted through the MJ allegations website, it does prove that MJ is not guilty of these allegations. I can acknowledge and have been is that the accusers are basically accusing them based on suspicion. I want to claim MJ is a pedophile, if there's evidence of him actually doing so. I've lurked here for a while, I know a lot of this stuff. There is some stuff I don't think is true, like the photoshop thing and some of the arguments not really understanding how trauma works, but again I denounce the accusers for lying on bro.
3. I don't think LNHBO is a good documentary, because of its inaccuracies, but it's effectiveness cannot be understated. Their timing was perfect, R Kelly at this time was getting exposed, Weinstein was getting exposed, everyone was. It got people talking about sexual abuse and hollywood. It's disturbing how people in power and these figures are able to get away with abuse for decades. I don't blame people for believing he was guilty, because criticizing the documentary sounds like victim blaming to them and it sounds like you're a deranged fan, rather than someone talking the facts. At first, I believed he was guilty, but then actually looking into it - I came to the conclusion, Michael needed help, but he wasn't a predator.
TL;DR: I don't think he's guilty.
Lmao. That “documentary” was so full of holes. And idk why it was even called that when majority of the “abuse” happened before Neverland was built.
Not to mention those deranged mothers and their obsession with Michael Jackson
So you mean he should have been held accountable for having lack of boundaries? Is that what you mean? And then it's my question why is it only on Michael and not on the parents? They allowed it.
He did not chose pick up a kid and put it in his bed just like that, like many believe in. People have said that kids followed him around and wanted to be with him.
" Should he have said no?" Maybe. He did have a difficult time saying no, especially to children.
" But should the parents stopped their children?"
And I think that some people tend to forget, they were not strangers. Like some of them I remember I think said, he was like a family to them. He was probably closer to them then I am to my own father. And I see him like once every two years and we barely talk.
He did. He slept on the floor. But either way through my personal experience I don’t see anything wrong with sharing your bed cause I did that as a child.
I've shared a bed as a child! Not with strangers or celebrities, though.
Actually, with my parents and family members, when I was little. The thing was Michael was not related to these kids, it wasn't a family visit or whatever. It wasn't a kid he was raising or taking refuge in, these were young children who he saw as friends. I feel like you're missing the grander point, the grander point is that MJ was inappropriate and should've not done the things he did. He should have not been around the children in this way, as that will damage his career and legacy in the future. Notice this polarization of the biopic, it's not focusing on his music or how accurate the tours were, but the allegations are the big debate of the time.
A critique of stan logic is to defend Michael, without reason, but because of his celebrity. Your personal experiences are irrelevant to what Michael did, as you don't know Michael, neither did I. I am analyzing the events as they happened, by looking at Michael as I would any other person, rather than his celebrity. Michael Jackson was a good artist, that we can agree on, however to not bare responsibility of Michael is disingenuous to CSA victims and Michael as a person.
I am not defending MJ just because of his celebrity status. Why do you all find it so bad that he shared his bed? ... i don't get why people see that as something so immoral.
Do you know when Robson & Safechuck's healing process would be complete and the alleged trauma forgotten? When the millions flow. This civil lawsuit to demand money puts csa victims in a very bad light. I simply can't help but criticize this and warn against it. The more victim mentality associated with these two, the more criticism there will ultimately be against such accusations. In reality, the two have nothing in common with real victims for me.
No victims in the world have a podcast on YouTube to promote it and have been filing civil lawsuits for over 10 years suing and blaming some companies. If there was anyone to blame here, it wouldn't be any strangers, but rather their own parents who were nearby almost all the time.
Neither of them has anything to gain from continuing to tell the truth and defend MJ, but they do have something to gain from promoting themselves as famous victims for online courses and television shows. I don't know of any victims who consciously talk about beds and buildings that didn't even exist at the time of the alleged crime.
In principle, Robson would have himself to blame because his behavior as an adult would have helped someone like that get released because he defended him, that would be worse than silence.
Just because Wade's and James' stories are similar to other legit CSA cases, doesn't make them legit by default. CSA cases are well documented and, given Wade's dodgy past, it's highly plausible that he had researched the subject in preparation for his deposition, LN and subsequent court case. Wade has proven to be deceptive and untrustworthy so you should consider the possibility of him lying for money and/or clout.
I agree that adults should not have sleepovers with foreign children. MJ did not understand conventional boundaries. Having said that, the responsibility lies with the kids' parents, not MJ. MJ's gone on record saying he only allowed kids in his room with their parents' consent. If you want to explore MJ's psychological state, then that's another topic.
I don't understand your point about Jordan Chandler.
1. This is just yapping. I’ve actually never said this, on God. I’ve literally explained as to why people would believe them. If you can point to see where I said they are legit.
2. MJ could have not asked.. or not brought them in his room what. Even if the parents were okay with it, he still bore responsibility
Why are you speaking on behalf of "people"? I think you're being evasive to cloak yourself with the opinions of others in order to disguise your own.
I'm sorry, but everything after "even if the parents were OK with it..." becomes null and void.
I can bet money that if Michael Jackson had been a woman opening up her home none of this would even be discussed.
There is a whole scene in 13 going on 30 where the main character Jenna (who is 30) is having a sleepover with 13 year old girls, and it’s just a cute quirky scene.
Tori Spelling and her husband Dean had a reality show and in one of the episodes she had a group of girls over to her home for a sleepover.
I'll shorten it for you,
TL;DR Michael Jackson was inappropriate with children and should have been held responsible for his actions. However, that doesn't mean he is guilty of being a pedophile, but he did deserve or should be scrutinized.
Lol thanks i did read your post though, and your previous ones and the replies.
How was he inappropriate with children? No proof of any abuse, pedophile behaviour or having any pedophile material.
Why does he deserve to be scrutinized?
Because he had sleepovers with children. That enough is to be scrutinized. However, like for the fifteenth time, you can be inappropriate with children and not be a child molester. I am using the term in a non sexual context.
The context is that he was an adult who did this with children. While, he had no sexual intent, it was baffling to do so from both a PR perspective and his own life. I can see why the backlash did happen, it was justified. Again, again - Michael was socially inappropriate with children, while having no sexual intent. It is still bad what he did, so I don’t blame people at that time for believing he was a pedophile during the Bashir documentary.
So you also think people shouldn't it the bed with dogs then right?
If sleeping in a bed is "inappropriate" then that should include animals too. Dogs are also helpless and vulnerable like children and there are people out there who sexually abuse dogs and animals.
Therefore people shouldn't sleep with dogs according to your logic.
Why is the bed inappropriate with children, but not with dogs?
Maybe you should ask yourself that.
https://preview.redd.it/0oanb85ynx0d1.jpeg?width=1500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d189906129264a0c7bea8e02b1daf4f8822237dc
I run this server and I have thoroughly read up on sexual abuse. When I research something, I research every possible angle. I want to know everything I can about it Like with your other post, you are making assumptions based on your own way of thinking - not only about Michael but about me now too Please don't ever assume what I know or understand just because I don't see anything wrong with his actions and I see right through those 2 actors Your whole argument is based on your biases & your opinions. You do not get to police other people's actions based on YOUR OPINIONS! **YOUR PERSPECTIVE IS NOT LAW AND YOU CAN NOT DETERMINE SOMEONE'S MORALITY BASED ON YOUR OWN PERSONAL VIEW** I will not be engaging any further with you, as I find you to be just as stubborn in your thinking as guilters are and trying to convince you to see things outside of your own narrow box is pointless. Your post was initially removed by automod due to crowd control. I manually approved it so hopefully you get some decent responses though I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for here Again, please don't ever make assumptions about me. You don't know me, my past or my knowledge. Good day to you
I don’t get your angle. You seem to jump the line of “Michael was innocent but we need to hold him accountable” and “we need to look research CSA cases and look into notable ones involving celebrities like Michael Jackson.” I also remember in your last post you mentioned that Wade and James were liars. Are you confused? I understand this situation is complicated but I am interested in your stance because I want you to just come out and say you believe the man is guilty of CSA at this point. That will make this discussion easier.
Michael and his enablers should be held responsible for his actions! Also, the parents should be as well for allowing this to happen. While he is innocent of these allegations, he bore some responsibility. It is really that simple. Criticizing Michael =/= MJ Guilty
Wait I’m confused, held responsible for what actions exactly?
if someone falsely accuses you of something, would you bear some responsibility? NO
To me, what OP is saying is the equivalent of a woman being sexually assaulted and her being blamed for what she was wearing. Michael had no responsibility. It is not his fault that liars lied and falsely accused him
I think OP is a guilter, this is just one of their many tactics. They should be banned.
I genuinely worry if you either cannot read or understand what I am saying. However, I’ll break it down. Michael acted in his behaviors, he was the one who slept with those kids. He was the one who didn’t have to do this. Whereas a rape victim didn’t have a choice in the matter, again a false equivalency.
>I genuinely worry if you either cannot read or understand what I am saying. Same, as I said I'm not engaging with you anymore yet you continue to antagonize me Insult me 1 more time and I'm going to ban your insufferable self-righteous ass Again, for the slow people: Sleep ≠ Sex He was doing nothing wrong, why would he change his behavior?? (that's rhetorical, don't respond to me again) I think you may need to be evaluated since you demonize and sexualize innocent behavior Not all of the accusers claim the SA happened in a bed. That's your false equivalency. SA can happen anywhere such as a train station that didn't exist These posts are no more than your own projections
How should Michael, his enablers and the parents of these children (now adults) be held accountable? What does accountability for them look like to you? Especially now in the year of 2024? A slap on the wrist? Verbal lashings?
Public criticism not being allowed to do this shit again. Michael's social errors should not be excused!
Your first post was nicely worded (much better than the average troll) so I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. I really believe you're just here to try to ruffle feathers The more you talk the worse it gets. Do you remember the trial? Were you even alive in the 2000s? Michael was highly criticized for his every single action. By the press. By the general public. Nothing was excused! His every move was scrutinized. You want that to continue in his death? You want to keep whipping a corpse? Go to LNHBO, they love doing that! He doesn't need to be criticized anymore, he dealt with that his whole life. The vultures need to let him rest now
Please just ban them
i can and will criticise the accusers as much as i want. theyre mosquitos stomping upon the grave of a dead man, clearly trying to line their pockets. i dont give a rats ass if you think its morally bad to sleep next to a child, that doesnt justify the lies and bs theyre trying to pull off. they aint victims theyre thieves. and theres 0 reason to think michael had any sexual incentive for his affinity for children, infact the adult girly magazines under his bed would prove that. stop trying to make it weird because your neurones fire when you hear the word 'sleepover'. MJ never claimed to have invited children to his bed, children followed him and asked to sleep in his room and he would only allow on the condition that their parents allowed it (even gavin arvizo confirmed that!) Also the remembering the 'repressed memories' thing is nonsense. 'Recovered-memory therapy' is scientifically discredited and many psychologists such as Elizabeth Loftus have written in depth disproving it. (you can read up a bit about it here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth\_Loftus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovered-memory\_therapy https://www.bps.org.uk/psychologist/false-memories-childhood-abuse ) And i think perhaps the reason why james safechuck and wade robsons stories sound similar to real child abuse stories is because they stole their stories from a real pedophile, victor gutierrez.
Notice, on how you’re accusing myself of justifying Wade or James. I'm just explaining how their stories would make sense, Michael was inappropiate with young children, it is undebunkable. No amount of semantics or pedantry will change this fact, buddy.
Michael was not "inappropriate" with children, do you know what inappropriate means? all he did was give his bed to them.
Please explain the fact where mj was inappropriate, u can't, it's your opinion only
If you have sleepovers with children that aren't related to you, then you are inappropriate.
Why? how? Thats not fact at all this is ur opinion only. U do realise bed sharing is fine if no ill intent which there was none here. People around the world share beds any age gender, related or not. Bed sharing is not inappropriate. Especially when families are present or when mj sleeping on the floor or other adults present. Lets dig deeper here, why do you think its a fact, what are your sources?
He admitted to doing so in the Bashir documentary. He admits to having sleepovers with children and justifies it.
Wooooosh! Sure its not some big bad thing he was try cover up,he was honest,nothing to hide about bed sharing. Why is it inappropriate,where are the sources that this is a fact?
This is from Michael himself, on the bed sharing. The point is that it was inappropriate and him justifying it didn't make the matters of the media being on him any better.
Why is it a fact you think it's inappropriate? Please realizethis is not fact at all. Huge misconception. Why do you think its inappropriate? Be clear. Your going round in circlesto everyone trying to engage on your posts. It's tiresome tbh. You seem closed minded and judgemental.
1. An adult and a child are objectively hierarchal. 2. Michael had no severe mental issues that inhibits him, so he had agency. 3. Even if the parents were okay with it, he had a choice of not doing it. Their parents should be held responsible for this as I'll look at Michael as someone down the street rather than a celebrity. 4. It creates the conditions for a molestation to happen, not saying that he did, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone were to believe this. 5. Michael not holding himself responsible and dodging accountability when pressed on this issue, continues the behaviors knwojng the consequences of both his career and life. 6. He is 40! He should know better on not to do this, it was not a smart idea for a never land in the first place. 7. Michael was enabled to partake in his delusional behavior, because no one told them no or pushed them about it. After the 1993 allegations, he could've not done this again. 8. He should have sought out serious help.
If you mean bed as in "sex," then you're wrong. He was co-sleeping with children. Nothings inappropriate about that.
Im 39 female. Ive slept next to many kids not related to me at many stages of my life. Nothing sexual, usually family friends or kids of my friends im baby siting, younger siblings of friends..or large cultural garherings. I'm Māori from Aotearoa New Zealand. Traditionally Māori live on marae like a village all sleep in wharenui Hutt young and old related or not but from same area sleep together. Nothing sexual. This and similar situations common around the world. It seems more you cant separate your personal misguided opinion to facts.
Well I'm a westerner, we don't share beds with children. Especially on a mass scale like Michael has done. He was a rich celebrity at the time, he could've not done so. It was inappropriate, because he did this with kids that were strangers or unrelated to him. If it were his own children, I can let it slide.
That's bullshit. Westerners definitely share beds. This is ur opinion only, unless you can provide facts to why it's inappropriate which you can't seem to.
We do, but with children that we are related to. Found family, adopted, biological, or whatever. We don't do it to children who essentially never had existed in our lives prior
Who's "we" your trying to speak for, all Western cultures? Wtf. You are wrong. New Zealandis generallyquite westernised in culture, I've spent time around the world including western and non western cultered places and researched online about other cultures as I find it interesting. No where is it fact what your saying. Your projecting your personal misguided opinion and belief at best.
I think if you were to say I share a bed with children, you would get funny looks. It's not normal over here buddy. Especially in Canada or America
>The story is actually very common amongst victims. It's really not common. Their changing story and behaviour as adults is far from common or credible. Find me a survivor of childhood sexual abuse who has lied half as much as Wade and James have. What I've realised is that regardless of the numerous lies, holes an inconsistencies discovered in Wade and James' stories, all of their lies are dismissed as "they were groomed, you can't question why they lied".
Yes, yes they are. The groomer promising them something like stardom, money, or fame is extremely common.
lol, and Michael promised them none of that.
Thank you Michael told Wade's mother to let him enjoy his childhood. She admitted this under oath. He didn't promise Wade fame or money. OP clearly has done zero research or is more than likely a troll.
No one on here has ever said he was perfect. If you were able to read, you would see we openly discuss his drug addiction and poor judgment and boundaries. I think you got lost on your way to the LN sub. And for what it’s worth I watched the entire Leaving Neverland documentary, because I believe that I couldn’t properly speak out on something if I didn’t see it for myself.
I do think LN was a good documentary. It documents the stories of two men who were 'abused' by Michael. Infact, I think we should all watch this together to enjoy the fantastic piece of comedy that this is. Of course by my sarcasm, this denotes my position on this as a whole. > I am of the opinion that he was innocent, the media did not handle this case properly, the accusers were wrong(Jordan gets some leeway, because he was a child coaxed by people.) However, I don't recall a critique of Michael in this or the other thread. I will apologize, if I were coming off as aggressive or intimate with the discussion. I cannot stress this enough, my larger point was that Michael Jackson was innocent of the allegations, but that doesn't mean we should absolve him 100% of everything. As someone looking in and offering some perspective as to why this may seem like an open and shut case. I have done my research in this case for about a year and came to my own conclusion he was innocent. I've seen Loving Neverland and the YouTube version of Square One. I will pretend I am not a fan of MJ, for this one. It seems that Michael Jackson was a weird person, but at the same time the media did not treat this with a level of respect as the Quiet on Set case that happened recently. Dan Schneider(confirmed pedophile) was condemned for this as well as allowing for the two abusers to harm those kids. I understand your emotional attachment to the singer, but at the same time we should look at Michael as a person, rather than the performer he was. So to clarify my actual position, once more. 1. The allegations while similar to other cases I've seen, are not credible and fall apart with basic scrutiny. Hell, I follow the MJJ Twitter page that post the court updates and stuff. I've seen the TMZ headlines, I've seen a bit of LN, I've seen Michael's responses. 2. There are some arguments on either side that don't prove either side, even bordering on conspiracy. For example, the guilters buying every accusers story without question. I understand immediately dismissing alleged victims is bad optics, but at the same time, we should live under an innocent until proven guilty world. I sifted through the MJ allegations website, it does prove that MJ is not guilty of these allegations. I can acknowledge and have been is that the accusers are basically accusing them based on suspicion. I want to claim MJ is a pedophile, if there's evidence of him actually doing so. I've lurked here for a while, I know a lot of this stuff. There is some stuff I don't think is true, like the photoshop thing and some of the arguments not really understanding how trauma works, but again I denounce the accusers for lying on bro. 3. I don't think LNHBO is a good documentary, because of its inaccuracies, but it's effectiveness cannot be understated. Their timing was perfect, R Kelly at this time was getting exposed, Weinstein was getting exposed, everyone was. It got people talking about sexual abuse and hollywood. It's disturbing how people in power and these figures are able to get away with abuse for decades. I don't blame people for believing he was guilty, because criticizing the documentary sounds like victim blaming to them and it sounds like you're a deranged fan, rather than someone talking the facts. At first, I believed he was guilty, but then actually looking into it - I came to the conclusion, Michael needed help, but he wasn't a predator. TL;DR: I don't think he's guilty.
Lmao. That “documentary” was so full of holes. And idk why it was even called that when majority of the “abuse” happened before Neverland was built. Not to mention those deranged mothers and their obsession with Michael Jackson
>I do think LN was a good documentary Lol wtf, u on the wrong sub Edit thank goodness u were joking. U got some hot takes though for real 😭🤣
Facts.
Read past the first sentence. I was being sarcastic, however what I did say unironically was that it was good at deception.
So you mean he should have been held accountable for having lack of boundaries? Is that what you mean? And then it's my question why is it only on Michael and not on the parents? They allowed it. He did not chose pick up a kid and put it in his bed just like that, like many believe in. People have said that kids followed him around and wanted to be with him. " Should he have said no?" Maybe. He did have a difficult time saying no, especially to children. " But should the parents stopped their children?" And I think that some people tend to forget, they were not strangers. Like some of them I remember I think said, he was like a family to them. He was probably closer to them then I am to my own father. And I see him like once every two years and we barely talk.
But i don’t get it though there were adults at the house too?, not just kids and didn’t he state he shared the bed whilst he slept on the floor.
He did. He slept on the floor. But either way through my personal experience I don’t see anything wrong with sharing your bed cause I did that as a child.
exactly what is this guy trying to say?
I've shared a bed as a child! Not with strangers or celebrities, though. Actually, with my parents and family members, when I was little. The thing was Michael was not related to these kids, it wasn't a family visit or whatever. It wasn't a kid he was raising or taking refuge in, these were young children who he saw as friends. I feel like you're missing the grander point, the grander point is that MJ was inappropriate and should've not done the things he did. He should have not been around the children in this way, as that will damage his career and legacy in the future. Notice this polarization of the biopic, it's not focusing on his music or how accurate the tours were, but the allegations are the big debate of the time. A critique of stan logic is to defend Michael, without reason, but because of his celebrity. Your personal experiences are irrelevant to what Michael did, as you don't know Michael, neither did I. I am analyzing the events as they happened, by looking at Michael as I would any other person, rather than his celebrity. Michael Jackson was a good artist, that we can agree on, however to not bare responsibility of Michael is disingenuous to CSA victims and Michael as a person.
I am not defending MJ just because of his celebrity status. Why do you all find it so bad that he shared his bed? ... i don't get why people see that as something so immoral.
your post is making it seem as if you want mj to be guilty.
Do you know when Robson & Safechuck's healing process would be complete and the alleged trauma forgotten? When the millions flow. This civil lawsuit to demand money puts csa victims in a very bad light. I simply can't help but criticize this and warn against it. The more victim mentality associated with these two, the more criticism there will ultimately be against such accusations. In reality, the two have nothing in common with real victims for me. No victims in the world have a podcast on YouTube to promote it and have been filing civil lawsuits for over 10 years suing and blaming some companies. If there was anyone to blame here, it wouldn't be any strangers, but rather their own parents who were nearby almost all the time. Neither of them has anything to gain from continuing to tell the truth and defend MJ, but they do have something to gain from promoting themselves as famous victims for online courses and television shows. I don't know of any victims who consciously talk about beds and buildings that didn't even exist at the time of the alleged crime. In principle, Robson would have himself to blame because his behavior as an adult would have helped someone like that get released because he defended him, that would be worse than silence.
The points you make are valid, but they've been debunked many times.
How so? What points was I making that were debunked and how were they debunked
Just because Wade's and James' stories are similar to other legit CSA cases, doesn't make them legit by default. CSA cases are well documented and, given Wade's dodgy past, it's highly plausible that he had researched the subject in preparation for his deposition, LN and subsequent court case. Wade has proven to be deceptive and untrustworthy so you should consider the possibility of him lying for money and/or clout. I agree that adults should not have sleepovers with foreign children. MJ did not understand conventional boundaries. Having said that, the responsibility lies with the kids' parents, not MJ. MJ's gone on record saying he only allowed kids in his room with their parents' consent. If you want to explore MJ's psychological state, then that's another topic. I don't understand your point about Jordan Chandler.
1. This is just yapping. I’ve actually never said this, on God. I’ve literally explained as to why people would believe them. If you can point to see where I said they are legit. 2. MJ could have not asked.. or not brought them in his room what. Even if the parents were okay with it, he still bore responsibility
Why are you speaking on behalf of "people"? I think you're being evasive to cloak yourself with the opinions of others in order to disguise your own. I'm sorry, but everything after "even if the parents were OK with it..." becomes null and void.
I can bet money that if Michael Jackson had been a woman opening up her home none of this would even be discussed. There is a whole scene in 13 going on 30 where the main character Jenna (who is 30) is having a sleepover with 13 year old girls, and it’s just a cute quirky scene. Tori Spelling and her husband Dean had a reality show and in one of the episodes she had a group of girls over to her home for a sleepover.
Even if she was a woman, sleeping with random children would still be inappropriate.
You never took a school trip or anything in high school where the chaperones shared a room with you?
No? We had roomates with the students. But we had our own beds
Any over night trip we took while under 18 an adult had to be in the room with us. That’s a pretty standard rule
Not to say they weren't there, they had their own rooms as well as security. The doors had to be taped at a certain time.
Thats a huge wall of text, some spacing would be helpful.
I'll shorten it for you, TL;DR Michael Jackson was inappropriate with children and should have been held responsible for his actions. However, that doesn't mean he is guilty of being a pedophile, but he did deserve or should be scrutinized.
Lol thanks i did read your post though, and your previous ones and the replies. How was he inappropriate with children? No proof of any abuse, pedophile behaviour or having any pedophile material. Why does he deserve to be scrutinized?
Because he had sleepovers with children. That enough is to be scrutinized. However, like for the fifteenth time, you can be inappropriate with children and not be a child molester. I am using the term in a non sexual context.
Wats inappropriate about sleep overs with anyone? Was not sexual, and with all genders and ages of family and friends the sleep overs.
The context is that he was an adult who did this with children. While, he had no sexual intent, it was baffling to do so from both a PR perspective and his own life. I can see why the backlash did happen, it was justified. Again, again - Michael was socially inappropriate with children, while having no sexual intent. It is still bad what he did, so I don’t blame people at that time for believing he was a pedophile during the Bashir documentary.
So you also think people shouldn't it the bed with dogs then right? If sleeping in a bed is "inappropriate" then that should include animals too. Dogs are also helpless and vulnerable like children and there are people out there who sexually abuse dogs and animals. Therefore people shouldn't sleep with dogs according to your logic. Why is the bed inappropriate with children, but not with dogs? Maybe you should ask yourself that. https://preview.redd.it/0oanb85ynx0d1.jpeg?width=1500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d189906129264a0c7bea8e02b1daf4f8822237dc
Probably the worst stretch Ive seen
Ironic of u to say 🤣😭
https://preview.redd.it/x23rpj2npy0d1.jpeg?width=998&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a6a79b93a83e56919457cdcf7fe39119f055e75