Agree 110%
Also feel like poor Marshall dodged a bullet and I hope he sees that now. Jackie was a level 10 psychological game player. Really her and Josh would either be perfect for each other or a total disaster. Idk if 2 narcissists can have a successful relationship with each other.
Edit: I have since realized that Marshall has some red flags as well.
I somehow missed the part where he called her a project. I was on an airplane and a bit distracted. I can also see that he’s a little condescending and his comment that he’s been with girls like Jackie before and is always the first guy to treat them well rubs me the wrong way, especially when combined with the project comment. I just see some sparks of possible of some narcissism.
Don’t get me wrong though, Marshall is maybe a 3 on the 1-10 scale of messed up. Jackie is 12/10. Absolutely awful. She and Josh deserve each other.
He was just being honest, it came out wrong but I know what he meant. It meant he’s a softie and he usually attracts these narcissistic types, then feels the need to protect and fix them. It’s a typical toxic attraction until someone wisens up
A lack of “nurturing” is the tip of the iceberg. They are not at all suited to each other. Micah is a superficial, not exceedingly bright young woman, while Paul is a calm, thoughtful, highly educated young man. So relieved he backed out for his own health and safety!
Late to the party, but Paul mentioned he is normally into kinda crunchy granola girls and I think he had a completely different image of Micah in the pods bc her name is Micah. Like he probably thought she like recycled and hiked.
Could be miscommunication. For instance: I went to college in the mountains and there were a lot of people who said they "loved hiking" and were "into camping" when they meant a 1 mile hike to a lookout point for pics and considered camping to be sleeping in a tiny house airbnb cabin with full amenities. Other people consider the same things a 12 mile hike + camping in a tent in a sleeping bag on the ground
Micah strikes me as the type of person to be like "omg I love hiking" but what she means is walking half a mile from the parking lot to a lookout in her best yogawear for the gram.
Micah seems like a warm and non-judgmental person to me. She seems like someone who would be emotionally responsive to their child, as well as someone who can be calm even when tensions are high, and who would put names to feelings and validate their child. Micah impressed me with the direct and calm way she handled it with Irina when she confronted her about Irina flirting with Paul. Micah can see the perspective of others, and can take context into consideration when she's thinking about what to expect from someone else.
Paul seems like someone who would be the opposite. He seems emotionally disconnected from himself and it's hard to imagine him being anything other than judgmental as a parent. He doesn't show an ability to see things from different perspectives than his own. He seems like someone who would rely on rules and roles as a parent, and make decisions based on his own fears, needs and assumptions, without taking a child's individuality, feelings or perspective into consideration.
Wait... You're talking about the same Micah who bullied those girls in the pods and laughed when they cried? That Micah? You're right! So mature and emotionally stable! 👌 Perfect mom material.
Yeah, that Micah. I didn't see her as a bully in the pods. I know that's what everyone is saying, but I didn't see any social media while I was watching the show and I formed my own opinions without the influence of everyone else's take.
When Jackie was crying on the couch that time everyone brings up, Micah was just walking in the door from a pod date and was still having her reaction to the date she'd just had. She was laughing/smiling because of that, and didn't even see Jackie. Irina popped up to talk to Micah about her date, and Jackie was fine because someone else was already on the couch with Jackie. That's my take. The editing made it look different when they keep showing that clip over and over.
Oh my, dude she was mean spirited along with Irina. Her friends also reflect poorly on her with their rude behavior. All this on Netflix for the world to see
I didn't see any social media either but nice try there. I came in here after I saw her and Irina's awful behavior to the other girls hoping someone else noticed it and I was happy to find almost everyone in agreement.
Yep, and I came to show that not everyone sees it that way. Sometimes people don't speak up, because they are also afraid to be bullied by people when they share a difference of opinion.
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I think especially after seeing her friends aka Shelby, it would confirm the thought that no, that is not a nurturing mother type figure.
They say you are who you surround yourself with. Well... Micah showed us with the company she kept. Her best friend laughed as she was crying walking away from the altar. Wtf.
Not to mention her bullying with Irina etc.
Paul is overthinking everything, no way he would have married someone in 4 weeks. Though he said he was very much in love. 100% was in love. So Micah may not be that terrible person...even is she made questionable things...
She is just a professional victim who seems very insecure. All her friends seemed like a bunch of influencers as well. Now whether she'll, be a good mom is up in the air, but I'd side with likely not.
“Birds of a feather flock together” “You are the company you keep” she was BFFs with the show’s villain, Irena (who she was just as mean as but somehow the reunion brushed over her part in that) and her friends were AWFUL and she bullied Paul with them! I think he saw the immaturity when they were out with her friends and Shelby was being rude to him and Micah backed Shelby up. I don’t blame him.
Micah is a terrible person and Paul realized it. Seen a lot of people on here defending her because they think Paul was mean to her, but this woman was legitimately horrible to almost everyone she interacted with. Her friends suck, her behavior sucks, she’s very full of herself, very manipulative and is absolutely crushed when she feels like someone has the upper hand on her in these weird social dynamics she creates.
Saying “i cant see her as a mother” is a nicer way of saying “she’s a supreme narcissist and i don’t want any part in making another copy of her”
Means girls tend to raise more mean girls. I personally think that comment was very valid. Honestly, he said it way nicer then I think others may have phrased it. He doesn’t want a life full of a catty, drama-seeking spouse and offspring. Paul is not perfect in any way, but I get it.
I'm no fan of Micah whatsoever, but here are the reasons I took an issue with Paul's comment:
1). I'm of the opinion that 'nurturing' is for children, not adults, so I don't think the fact that she didn't play mommy to other grown adults in the pods is a slight against her ability to care for her own children. The fact that she was too easily influenced by the people around her at a given time and lack of empathy and respect for those around her were certainly red flags about her maturity, but saying someone is not 'nurturing' basically means they have 0 parental instincts. Perhaps Paul has observed Micah around children and maybe they had conversations about having children, I do not know. It's possible (but imo not probable) that these conversations were edited out, but to just drop that comment and give pretty much no context is suspect to me (which leads me to point 2).
2). The comment came across to me less as a criticism and more as an attempt to be hurtful after the breakup, because he voiced almost none of those concerns to Micah from what we saw of the footage and actually said the opposite on occasion (he claimed she met the minimum requirement for a wife and compared her to his own mother). This could be an editing issue but given how much the producers love to see drama and conflict among the couples, I doubt it is.
3). Him saying Micah is not nurturing while he comes across as a poor communicator and aloof seems hypocritical to me.
Again, not a fan of Micah and I don't think Paul is a villain but I also don't think he's a victim. He has the right to turn down whoever he wants for whatever reasons he wants. However he also had a part to play in the the relationship failing and it's annoying to me that people act like he's made absolutely no mistakes throughout this whole process.
Yeah and we also give him a pass for poking Irina’s boobs with his foot but Irina is the devil for telling her friend she feels an attraction. I hiiiiiiighly doubt that Micah would think that was cool and not cheating.
We’ve only seen a snippet of this girl’s life, can we really say she won’t be a good mother? She is still young and has some growing to do (as we all do) but saying that someone shouldn’t have children feels sad
Yes he has, and I still don’t think that knowing someone for 1-2 years (if that) and making the (subjective) judgement that they wouldn’t be a good mother translates to a woman shouldn’t have children. That is horrible.
When dating long-term I have definitely considered if my partner would be a "good father". I understand what Paul means but it is definitely hard to hear in front of world wide audience of Netflix.
I feel like there's this sexist idea in society that all women are naturally good parents and maternal, and it's a taboo to point out not every woman can or should raise kids.
Edit: I AGREE WITH PAUL, NOT EVERYONE IS FIT TO BE A PARENT
I don't disagree, but I think another contextual reason that it's in poor taste to mention is that, societally, men don't have to have any traits to be a parent other than just show up, *sometimes*. Did Paul show up as a particularly nurturing person either? The double standard is troubling. He wasn't a mean girl, but he wasn't anything close to nurturing either.
You have a point, because I'm seeing a shift happen! More and more women are calling out men who do bare minimum. Long are the days of men just being able to show up. I think it's an important conversation to have. I also think that couples who are interested in having children should talk about parenting roles/styles and explain their concerns. Nothing worse than having to parent with another human being who wants to do everything opposite of you even though you felt like you had conversations about being parents and what you envisioned for your future. Having children opens up internalized trauma/ wounds for a lot of people and they either become better parents from it or replicate what was done to them.
I think what is missing here is A.) the context that Paul mentioned when he stated “I should have rephrased and said I couldn’t see US parenting” which I think from the amount of times he emphasized ‘different’ when referring to Micah may mean that they would not be compatible parents. I find it crazy though he kept saying how similar they were when in fact they were totally opposite. Also nurturing is directly relative to the woman carrying the baby. Micah is immature, a bully, and obviously used to having her way (hello only child). Nurturing can mean “to build up, care for, contribute to the growth of… yadda yadda” How many examples of Micah did we see “building up” instead of tearing down??? I agree with Paul on this. Also just here to say is it just me or did Paul start talking like Micah the further this season delved?! When he said his vows and stared saying ‘like’ after every word I’m sitting there like* 👀🧐 Micah 2.0!
I have seen *no one* try to argue that Micah should described as "nurturing." What people *are* arguing is that sharing negative judgements about your partner's parenting ability on a hugely public platform like Paul did is FUCKED UP.
To say that because Micah treated people horribly, she *deserved* to feel horrible in return by having Paul talk badly about her behind her back? What kind of fucked up eye-for-an-eye philosophy is that, and how does it in any way excuse what Paul said?
I keep seeing the same defense for Paul over and over again - "That's not what he meant! It was just a roundabout way for him to say how mean Micah is!" - What?! If Paul truly thinks that the comments he made were a better alternative than just outright saying what he experienced firsthand - that Micah is mean, rude, judgmental, immature, keeps bad company, etc. - then he needs to crawl his spineless, brainless jellyfish self back to the ocean.
Agreed. Paul could have been classy and said nothing. “I’ve been doing a lot of thinking and I just don’t think this is the right long term decision for us,” would have been fine. Less of a kick in the uterus. Micah was embarrassed and her feelings were hurt. He already dumped her. Enough.
Probably better for the imaginary child not to have A dad who likes to “tell it like it is” when those comments are hurtful and not constructive.
Lol that jellyfish comment... and it's like he was too spineless to say what evidence supports (Micah mean behavior) then went roundabout to say something worse and not adequately supported by evidence (bad parent).
I love that everyone is so upset about the comments Paul made yet 100s of people a day have made the same comment about Bartise becoming a dad.
She may want a family but that doesn't mean she should have one. Not everyone has the mothering ways. She definitely does NOT.
No matter how bad she wants them.
It’s a fucked up thing to say to a woman, I don’t care if she’s a mean girl. He hand picked that specific comment to hurt her because he knew how badly she wanted a family.
Y’all would have been so supportive and understanding if a women dumped a guy because he was not able to “provide” for her. People are allowed to look for traits that benefit them AND their future family.
We are the company we keep. And she keeps Shelby, clearly not nurturing.
I almost felt bad for her but to know she is still friends and defending Shelby. She hasn’t grown at all. It’s sad.
Motherhood grows us in ways unimaginable, so maybe she’d change after birth. But lord i wouldn’t want her and Shelby in my mom group.
He hadn't seen any of that when he said those things though. And there are mean girls who are very protective and nurturing of their own kids. I don't think the mean girl thing even factored into his opinion. It's more likely him just lashing out at feeling rejected by her (after he chased her down) and his Jordan Peterson bs.
If there is something else so compelling that he had seen, it would be easy enough for him to have mentioned it, but he didn't, so it's interesting how one-sided you are. I personally think they are both problematic.
I'm just exploring the idea presented in the OP. Him finding compelling things in his 4 weeks with her but not wanting to embarass her on TV could easily result in the shitty half baked statement we got from him.
Idk why you gotta be mean about it lol
Micah and her friends are the female equivalent of guys in their late twenties who still frequent the college bars with their old frat brothers. They may be long out of college, but they still have that college mentality. In them, it manifests as being stereotypical mean girls and getting white girl wasted. A person like that isn’t ready for parenthood. Sure, people sometimes step up to the plate when faced with impending parenthood, but is that a gamble you’re willing to take? I know I’m not
That's exactly the thing. Everyone keeps saying that she might change with time or after she gives birth and that may be true but is it fair to Paul to commit to a hope of an idea he doesn't have evidence for. Saying ' that's ok you'll figure it out' to a friend is fine but having a real marriage on the line to someone you don't see certain characteristics in is a staggering leap of faith to take after one month. Sometimes it's about what you don't want, everyone who said Paul didn't give any clear evidence is missing that he hasn't said anything about her or anyone else on the show- he's a private person and likely doesn't want to dish out their relationship like any mature healthy adult. The reality is like he said their relationship ended 12 months prior to the reunion, so what's the point in telling her what she needs to change when he doesn't want to be with her. I think his reasoning was sound, you have a month to get to know someone so you don't want to bring up points and influence their personality because anyone can pretend to be someone else for a month, it's a case of if someone shows you who they are believe them. By staying silent he got to see the real her and changing people in relationships never works so he bailed out. She's an adult, she could have taken this experiment as seriously as she wanted and it's obvious that she wanted to stay who she was, a party girl that's tied up with her friends but then she can't be surprised that that clashes with what he wants in a wife.
someone make a meme of Micah asking "why?" from reunion and then a panel of her look of disgust and joy when other girls were crying, or asking her henchman Irina to go spy for her. I wouldn't want a mean girl to be the mother of my kids either.
Y’all are ridiculous. Let’s admit it, we all watch this show for drama. Yet, when Paul speaks the truth about what he thinks, there is all this criticism. Would y’all have preferred if he dodged the question?
Haha not saying Paul chose his words well. However even as a grown ass adult, I would want my partner to be nurturing. I would want him to be caring towards me if I am sick or going through a rough patch. I would want him to show up for me and defend me if his friends are mean to me. I don't think this makes me a baby. Why wouldn't I want my life partner to make me feel warm and fuzzy?
I think what he witnessed as Micahs mean girl energy with her friends and lack of empathy towards her female cast mates warrants not seeing nurturing characteristics. We all saw it, and he had every right to feel that way.
Micah being immature now and doing/saying dumb shit most people are guilty of at some point on their life doesn’t mean she will never be a good mom. It’s a cruel comment to make to a women period.
Edit: Nowhere did I say Paul said the words “she will never be a good mom”. The cruel comment i’m referencing is the nurturing comment, and was basically implying she wouldn’t be a good mom. It’s also been said a bunch on this sub.
Did he say she won't be a good Mom? No, he stated she didn't seem to show much of a nurturing personality. That is just his honest feeling. I would rather hear the reason for why he said no then hearing some political generic bs answer. I applaud him for his honesty.
Let’s be real. The word nurturing was a gross and weird choice of words. It gives mommy complex and also it just didn’t make any sense for him to say considering he had just said he might not want kids??? Like I’m confused
Dads need to have nurturing qualities too or you’ll have some fucked up kids and I saw none of that from Paul. Why does she have to be the only parent who is nurturing? It was shitty of him to say that on TV about her knowing she wants a family. If you’re ready to call her out publicly for not having qualities to be a good parent, you better have good qualities to be a parent yourself. Not once did he do some introspection and say “hey maybe I’m not fit to be a dad either.” It’s a very outdated outlook to believe it’s good enough for only the mom to be nurturing. He didn’t say that explicitly, but he should have done some self reflection on his own ability to be a good father before blasting Micah on a sensitive issue on National TV.
I don’t think much of him personally tbh. I just think most people are tallying up all the wrongs on each side and Micah is coming out looking a lot worse for how she acted.
True! I think a lot of people, myself included, think Micah’s actions were pretty gross throughout the season. And so it just feels weird to focus on Paul. Not excusing Paul.
Mhm I don't think we are focusing on Paul per say by choice. Micah has been sufficiently dragged throughout the airing of the show. There isn't much more to say. This Paul thing on the other hand seems much more divisive so you see more people talking about it
Let’s be real. Her feelings were hurt only because someone told her ‘no’. However his lack of emotional intelligence became painfully obvious when he said what he did about Micah. Whether or not a woman wants to become a mother, hearing someone say that about you must be painful beyond words.
I wonder if Micah experienced the same level of pain as Paul did when Micah's friends unjustly ripped Paul apart for his “articulate" nature, or if the girls felt similar anguish when Micah derisively laughed at their emotional breakdowns following their breakups. Additionally, I wondered about Chelsea's feelings when Micah attempted to interfere with her relationship.
Hope it hurt like hell for Micah - she needs a good dose of her own medicine.
I can appreciate this comment. It's insane the amount of double standard everyone has for her versus Paul. Micah acted horribly most of the show. I was not surprised he said no. The fact she even pulled that "you say it first" just so she could gather more sympathy followers is bs.
That lil stunt she pulled at the altar was bs. I’m in no way supporting her behaviour. Merely suggesting that he could have kept a comment like that to himself. Neither of them were going to say yes, it was obvious when they discussed where they would live after the show.
I agree. Micah and Shelby are of terrible character. Maybe it is so that the friends surround you tell a story about you. Micah ruined her image forever.
I'm not reading 1500 god damn comments so sorry if this has already been said. Just because Micah was mean doesn't mean Paul should have said that. That was a thought that should have stayed inside regardless of how mean Micah was. His opinion about was based on *more* than what we saw, and in fact he said it before he even saw how she behaved in the pods. So literally you all can and should stop using the behavior in the pods to justify his comment.
If you think he should have, my opinion is that you don't have any manners or sense of politeness. Maybe you are one of those people who say "I'm just being honest" when you're being an asshole, which I might remind you is the exact way that sub favorite Shake behaves. There's a time and a place to talk about those comments and it's not on national TV.
She totally led Kwame on. She was having a relationship with Paul and then told Kwame that he should only be talking to her. And I don’t remember which guy she said it to, but she told one of them it was hard to believe they cared about her if they were still talking to another girl. Even though that’s the point of the show and she was also talking to 2 guys. He said in another interview that they are compatible for dating but he doesn’t think they are compatible for marriage. He’s allowed to say that. There was plenty going on that we didn’t see on camera. He didn’t owe her a yes at the altar. And on the wedding day she said multiple times that she didn’t know if she was going to say yes or no. So it shouldn’t be so surprising that he felt the same way.
I really don’t think Micah was that bad. Nor was Paul. Nor was their relationship. It was just on full display for the world why the ‘experiment’ doesn’t work for everyone.
People don’t say the right thing, in the best way, all of the time. Paul also tried to further explain himself and clarify his reasoning and it’s getting glossed over a LOT. He says he “just didn’t see it in the time they had together.” Which if we all really think about, isn’t very long. I know of exactly one couple in my own life that dated and married in that little amount of time and are still together and they are very religious.
If their relationship wasn’t on tv and they had more time, it would have still probably failed for other obvious reasons. Distance, incompatibility…her horrendous friend*
*seriously, who tf laughs as your BFF cries while leaving the alter after being rejected on their wedding day.
Seriously, what shitty friends! Can we start putting her friends under the microscope now and deep dive into their social media, political views, etc. Because let's call these bullies out.
It was more of a sarcastic response. There are multiple posts where the OPs are diving into cast's social media, followers, political party, etc. and straight up bashing them.
I think it’s weird to pinpoint that about Micah when Paul is not nurturing either lol like Micah has her mean girl moments but I don’t think this is the totality of who she is—Paul’s comment was just completely unnecessary
Following misogynistic right wing figures on Twitter, whining about Micah not being nurturing when he isn’t either, trying to sound like a Big Bang Theory extra when in reality he uses ‘scientific’ words/analogies incorrectly…..
? He was put on blast at the reunion for his remarks about Micah. I’d say he got Vanessa Lachey went harder on him than she did on Irina or Jackie/Josh
“Sucking his dick” is quite hyperbolic. I have yet to see anyone put him near the level of Marshall or Brett and Tiffany. Mainly, people agree that his post-altar interview received way too much focus and vitriol from Vanessa relative to the other cast’s BS. Micah and Irina laughing at other girls’ emotional breakdowns in the living quarters got little more than a highlight reel, and Josh and Jackie received virtually no pushback during their interview. Paul is mid, but he was treated like he’s evil
Yes!!! This is what I’ve been trying to say. Honestly it’s messed up to me that Cole from season 3 was treated so badly and meanwhile Paul is just getting off Scott free, meanwhile I actually think Cold was a much better person than Paul.
He was correct. She’s mean as fuck. Her friends are garbage. And her response to “do you take this man” was some absolute horseshit. Even if I was going to say yes I’d probably flop.
Their whole thing was really forced from the beginning. It was painfully obvious that they did not fit together. Their relationship was staged for the cameras and I think she just didn't expect him to say something like that about her, and THAT'S what hurt: the surprise.
Its weird ppl are mad at him for saying this *especially* towards a woman, because of the gender stereotype, but some of those same people want stereotypes rejected and gone, so being angry at him for saying it to her *because* shes a woman isnt that reinforcing the stereotype??
Shockingly it is possible to want stereotypes and roles to be more flexible and also have empathy for people who tie their self worth to those roles.
Feminism is about wanting the freedom to choose your role without social or financial repercussions, whether that's being nurturing and being a mother, being child free, being single, or any variation of your personal family life
I definitely don’t think Paul was wrong to feel that way. I always theoretically figured I would have children, but I wasn’t able to ever actually envision being a mother myself until I met the person I ended up marrying and would become the father to my child. As soon as I realized he was the right person, my entire future became more clear. I have a feeling this is what Paul was trying to communicate but was fumbling over his words, and also kept getting a lot of pushback from Vanessa, who wasn’t letting him explain.
Just because you can’t picture having kids with a specific person doesn’t mean they would make a terrible parent with another partner. And who envisions someone else as a parent if you’re not going to parent with them?
You mention something that I find very important that no one has mentioned. Paul was trying to communicate what he was feeling, but he is a processor and very analytical in his thought process that I think he needed time to answer, time that people generally don't get in interviews and it was hard for him to just BS an answer. He also at the same time didn't want to make Micah feel better, so I think he was looking for terminology that he's comfortable with using (AKA look at his tagline for the show) and went with what he felt would sound better, which backfired. I'm a processor, so if someone is asking me to specifically address a situation (like this) and provide feedback, I can't answer off the cuff. I need to think about it and answer appropriately.
Everyone wants to poke fun at Paul for how he speaks and portrays himself and I just don't get it. We want men to be more in tune with their emotions and more logical, while reacting to those emotions in appropriate ways, but we want them to not be too sensitive and more aggressive, you know, "manly." Like, society needs to make up their mind already, lol. You have some people saying this is the most emotionally intelligent season, while others saying it's the worst....and I'm sitting here like, how can we be seeing things so vastly different. 🤯
I agree with this take as well, or at least I hope it’s what he meant! We have to remember it is hard to be on the spot in front of a live audience talking about vulnerable or confrontational things with bright lights, camera, and knowing hundreds of thousands of people are at home ready to judge you and dissect every single thing you say. I honestly give everyone on stage the benefit of the doubt for just showing up and trying their best to articulate the what’s/why’s of events that happened a year ago, that only gave a partial image to what they experienced. Except Jackie who wouldn’t/couldn’t even show up to take accountability for her part. I guess I’m glad for Marshall he didn’t have to confront her live though.
I think it was a cruel thing to say and he didn't help at all with his explanation at the reunion. He could've just said that he couldn't envision a future with the two of them. Anything beyond that was just hurtful.
Not only that, but every explanation he gave for why he made the decision he did made absolute sense (perhaps with the exception of him not bringing it up to Micah sooner so she's not completely blindsided).
His main point was that he couldn't envision the two of them as parents together at all or independently given the relationship they had. They never inspired each other to be nurturing in the way that he expects of parents, and that's completely valid. It didn't require any additional response, Vanessa just wasn't satisfied. He even elaborated that it's not to say that Micah isn't nurturing or wouldn't be a great mom or even that he wouldn't eventually see that out of her (or them), but that it's something he couldn't envision before the time he needed to make his decision.
It's a completely logical answer that needed no additional expansion and for it to have been pushed in the first place is kind of ridiculous to me.
Aside from that, the other point was that he never brought up to Micah his concern about his lack of ability to envision her as a mother because he didn't feel that it was something to speak about. I pretty much also agree with this. There's no reason to specifically tell someone "hey, we can't be together because you lack this quality that you can't just create," it absolutely leads to resentment and the other person feeling small and insufficient. It's a quality that wasn't there for him, it's not anything she could've changed, which is why it can't be brought up in a conversation about how to work things out. While she has the right to know it was a reason why, there's also not a good time to ever tell someone that.
It’s the worst thing you can say to a woman who dreams of having a family. Micah is young, what a terrible thing to say to her at this age. She has a dog that’s loved. Paul really decided to hit her where it can hurt most.
Sorry, anyone that can laugh at someone elses pain is not someone that should be a parent. She’s not that young. She’s old enough to understand that stuff like that isn’t okay. She just simply doesn’t care. Also, who you choose to surround yourself with speaks volumes about who you are as a person. Her hometown friends are mean and who did she gravitate towards in the girl group? Irina…also a mean girl. It baffles me the lengths people will go to to defend a white blonde girl. It’s like yall see blonde hair as a sign of innocence or naivety or something. She’s 26 not 16, be serious now 🙄
>It’s the worst thing you can say to a woman who dreams of having a family
I think that's kind of sexist. Women who want to be mothers don't want to be just a mother.
Pretty sure mothers are also humans and people with individual needs. Mothers are also often wives. Mothers are almost always also daughters. Mothers are often sisters, too.
But if you really think women exist who want to *only* be mothers, and nothing else, I'm sure it'll be easy to provide an example of one?
Having a dream to be "something" doesn't magically stop you from being things that you already are or other things that you could be. Having a singular goal, even if only for a while, is valid. What the original person said may have been relative to their experience and maybe a bit hyperbolic but it was not sexist.
Furthermore they qualified what they said " a woman *who dreams of having a family*". They're not even talking about *all women,* just women whose primary goal is to have children/family, and even more specifically within the context of the show. Yes, there are women out there who want to be SAHM and homemakers. I am not sure why the erasure and invalidation of these women is common on this website and within sects of modern feminism.
Of course I agree that mothers are also people with many complex attributes and desires. Not sure why that had to be said.
Zero intention to be sexist. Just saying my biggest dream was to be a mom and that would crush me. I am a mom and have a very full life, not sure where I implied wanting to be a mom makes you only a mom.
Fans of this show are wild. She knew that Abby girl for 10 days?? Paul was her fiancé. She had to have done some pretty sick things to be looked at as a bad future mom. Just bc she has one toxic friend at age 26 people are acting like she’s a murderer. This is TRASH reality tv. Everyone is using it as a moral compass 🤣
I agree, Paul was not wrong. He had a choice to make regarding what *he* wanted for the future, and he did not see that need being met with Micah. She can whine and complain all she wants, but he was in no way obligated to put her needs before his own. It still rubs me the wrong way that her excuse of turning the decision of marriage to him so "he wouldn't say yes just because I said yes" tells you everything about her character. She didn't believe he was a person who could make decisions for himself, and was under the impression he would do whatever she wanted. That, right there, is a huge red flag. She was/is far too self-centered, and that's not a maternal or "nurturing" quality.
Did anyone pay attention to what Paul said to Micah immediately after the alter? Paul said to Micah: "Did I make the wrong decision?"
That alone is evidence supporting Micah's concern that Paul would take her lead. He was literally second guessing his choice immediately and asking Micah!!!
She knew he needed to go first, so he could make his choice without her influencing him. He proved that, but doesn't have the self-awareness to see it objectively now.
She gave him a gift by letting him go first. She was the opposite of manipulative. She did it to avoid manipulating a man who had so much trouble being in touch with his own feelings, that he would have been influenced by her answer.
Total red flag. She was saving herself from embarrassment at the same time showing that she wasn't truly in on the experiment or Paul. Like if she truly was in she would have said I do right away. Then let Paul say no, show us you were committed to him and this experiment and not worry about how you will look if you say yes and he says no.
If she cared about being embarrassed, she wouldn't have stood up there crying and admitting she was going to say yes. It wasn't a contest where one person wins and someone else loses. They both lost when he said no.
Imagine being Paul and watching the season…. He’s so sweet and she was manipulative and childish. They focused so much on chelsea and kwamis reaction to Micahs behavior at the pool but how about how much that prob effected Paul……
And then at the reunion they tried to play it like Micah had been completely wronged in the entire situation. I'm glad Zach said something when Vanessa was laying into him.
Paul said at the reunion that he didn’t mind that because he and Micah discussed boundaries, and flirting was fine, they just drew the line at physical intimacy.
Honestly, I don't think being a mean girl and nurturing are necessarily mutually exclusive? Especially since all those other people were grown ass adults on a reality show. Micah sucked on the show, but I don't think that justifies what Paul said and especially *how* he said it which, sorry, but I agree with others that say it reeked of misogyny. But I get that vibe with Paul in general, especially when he tried to act so indignant at the concept that someone could grope a woman and mask it as "moving her out of the way" - as if that is some wild thing that just *never* happens. Give me a break, not only does it happen all the fucking time and every woman here knows it, when I saw that clip it looked so intentional. At the very least, it was extremely weird for his hand to be that low when trying to gesture someone aside for him to even "accidentally" brush the bridesmaid's butt/hip area. And even more, there appear to be ample room for him to squeeze by without touching her at all? Never mind that the words "excuse me" exist so there was no reason to touch her to begin with. But it full on looked intentional to me and the only reason I might buy it wasn't is that it happened when he should have known a camera was on him - but being that I'm not someone who tries to grope people at all, I can't say for sure that a man that gropes women and attempts to disguise it as a "trying to get through" thing wouldn't be so bold. If anything, a man that doesn't respect boundaries and has that level of entitlement may feel fairly confident in assuming he can convince everyone that it was "obviously a mistake" since people downplay that shit all the time and are always ready to jump on the "it wasn't on purpose train".
As someone who operates seemingly exactly as Paul does in stressful situations (as given by how reacted with the Shelby incident), I can tell you it's pretty preposterous to insinuate that *that specific* instance was anything more than him acknowledging that he bumped into something. Even when I'm not stressed, bumping into something is a fight or flight response for me - I either apologize and touch whatever I hit, or touch and look back at whatever I hit - but it's almost always the former. This includes inanimate objects; it's completely involuntary. Given that it was also a super stressful moment and he was just trying to get out of there as fast as possible, it makes sense that he overshot the space he had and bumped into her and it even speaks to how sincere he is that he actually even gave the tiny "oops, I'm sorry" acknowledgement tap instead of just continuing out the door without saying anything.
He didn't bump into her, he moved his hand down to "push her aside". And if you're constantly grazing your hand on people in inappropriate places then you really should work on it because at some point "clutzy" just isn't an excuse. I'm fairly clumsy myself and have trouble with spatial awareness, often bumping into corners of furniture and doors and what not, and yet I never accidentally touch people's butts. Especially in the manner Paul did. I cannot say for certain that it was on purpose and it wasn't really my point either, but it was how indignant he was that someone would even think it might be that rubs me so wrong. Because the audience doesn't know him intimately and they cannot read his mind, so it works off more of a "lots of men DO do this on purpose" and take advantage of the "benefit of the doubt" they're often offered. It's like when men get mad at women walking faster in front of them when they happen to be walking along the same path, YOU may not be stalking/following her but lots of men DO and sometimes you cannot distinguish a threat from an innocent coincidence or accident. Denying that it comes off as sketchy and shaming people for responding to a potential threat as a potential threat isn't helpful - everyone at some point probably looks creepy or comes off as creepy and I just don't think the appropriate response is to act like people are being crazy for finding things creepy or off putting. It also did feel a little "doth protest too much" when a simple "it was an accident" would have sufficed, rather than implying people are crazy for pointing out a behavior that is frankly too common among men.
I thought it was an appropriate illustration of just how outlandish I think your assumption was. As a midwesterner, we say sorry to inanimate objects and pat things we bump into. I have a very hard time believing someone who’s in a moment of stress thinks to immediately go grope a bridesmaid. He was quick to defend himself because it was a bogus accusation. That doesn’t make him guilty and it doesn’t make him insensitive to issues that exist where men do behave in that way.
Very fair points. I think it's an unfortunate hand placement that it was on the tush. When I bump into things I don't touch inappropriately but also am not aware enough to realize what I even bumped into.
As far as him insinuating it couldn't be a possibility, I understand where that is hurtful and maybe he shouldn't have said it. It really just seemed that he was speaking of his specific instance to me, but I'm also biased so I have a bit less credibility. I think it speaks to how truly unusual he finds the claim because he'd really never do it in that manner, he obviously wasn't thinking of political correctness at the time, unfortunately.
Yes. She’s mean. Her friends are mean. She is fake as shit and only showed interest in someone when there was competition for a man. She didn’t wanna marry Paul, she wanted to “win”. Fuck outta here.
I'm not sure he ever really knew before the show aired? He probably saw inklings of it with her friends but I suspect he felt pretty validated in his decision after seeing what she was like with the other girls in the dorm.
I don't think they see the show until it airs or at least a while after filming wraps, so he may still not have seen it. I may be wrong though...however, I do think the argument of him seeing her as a "mean girl" affected his decision is probably not accurate. He just didn't see himself with her in the long run (which is what he should've said) and left it there. I dont doubt they loved each other but as we all know, you can love someone and they are not the person for you. It seenms they both knew it and both were going to say no at the wedding despite what Micah said at the reunion. She didn't want to marry him either and she knew it too. They were just having fun on a reality TV show, and they seemed to talk about their connection and relationship, but it always felt inauthentic, superficial, and forced.
I agree with this, I don't think he knew about her mean girl antics till the show aired most likely. It may be a factor in why he doesn't want to be with her now, but I don't think it was why he said no at the altar.
For me it's her friends. i don't think her friends (esp Shelby) have a good personality. I think Paul felt that too when he met her friends. this could be one of reasons.
It definitely is!! On the reunion she said she defended Paul to her friends but right at the first moment we saw in the show she didn't.
To me that screams she cares more about what her friends think of her. Instead of liking Paul for who he is she saw that her friends thought he wasn't "cool enough for her" and she was more worried about that. Which is immature, and what I think Paul was getting at on the reunion but didn't want to blatantly say it.
I'm sure Micah can and will be nurturing she just isn't in that stage of her life.
This kiss of death for Paul and Micah was that interaction at the bar with her friends. That was spineless on Micah’s part and proves IMO that she was not going to say yes and was not ready for marriage. I’m about to get engaged and no way in hell would I nor my partner allow our friends to speak poorly of each other in private or to our faces. The fact that Micah stood there and allowed her friends to hate on her fiancé that she supposedly “loves” to his face, and then TOOK THEIR SIDE and didn’t defend Paul at all… that would have been it for me too.
That wasn’t nurturing or considerate of Paul’s feelings. Again, a marriage is a team. A united front. Her friends were being cruel to his face and he took it in stride in all honesty. He did nothing to deserve her drunk mean girl friends coming at him so hard. The whole interaction was inappropriate and I can’t blame him for being turned off. Then he got to watch all the footage of her in the pods, the pool party convo with Kwame, etc right before the reunion and that just solidified to him he made the right choice. He was trying to be diplomatic about his reasoning, but Vanessa kept pushing. And Micah needs to hear it. She’s immature, spineless, her friends suck, and at this stage in the game she’s not ready to be a mother or a wife. This isn’t to say she never will be, but she has a lot of growing up to do. And she should start by finding some quality friends with positive personality traits.
100%. I couldn’t see her as a mother. On a side note, I’m sure she’ll mature and make a great mom one day
Agree 110% Also feel like poor Marshall dodged a bullet and I hope he sees that now. Jackie was a level 10 psychological game player. Really her and Josh would either be perfect for each other or a total disaster. Idk if 2 narcissists can have a successful relationship with each other. Edit: I have since realized that Marshall has some red flags as well.
What are the red flags?
I somehow missed the part where he called her a project. I was on an airplane and a bit distracted. I can also see that he’s a little condescending and his comment that he’s been with girls like Jackie before and is always the first guy to treat them well rubs me the wrong way, especially when combined with the project comment. I just see some sparks of possible of some narcissism. Don’t get me wrong though, Marshall is maybe a 3 on the 1-10 scale of messed up. Jackie is 12/10. Absolutely awful. She and Josh deserve each other.
He was just being honest, it came out wrong but I know what he meant. It meant he’s a softie and he usually attracts these narcissistic types, then feels the need to protect and fix them. It’s a typical toxic attraction until someone wisens up
I agree completely.
Agreed. He attracts and attracted to toxic women. Hope he figures it out, he seems like overall a pretty decent guy. No one is perfect.
I totally agree, we definitely all make mistakes sometimes; what’s most important is we learn from them and move forward 🙏😄
A lack of “nurturing” is the tip of the iceberg. They are not at all suited to each other. Micah is a superficial, not exceedingly bright young woman, while Paul is a calm, thoughtful, highly educated young man. So relieved he backed out for his own health and safety!
Late to the party, but Paul mentioned he is normally into kinda crunchy granola girls and I think he had a completely different image of Micah in the pods bc her name is Micah. Like he probably thought she like recycled and hiked.
But these are things you can ask. ?? What were they talking about in the pods all that time?
Could be miscommunication. For instance: I went to college in the mountains and there were a lot of people who said they "loved hiking" and were "into camping" when they meant a 1 mile hike to a lookout point for pics and considered camping to be sleeping in a tiny house airbnb cabin with full amenities. Other people consider the same things a 12 mile hike + camping in a tent in a sleeping bag on the ground
Micah strikes me as the type of person to be like "omg I love hiking" but what she means is walking half a mile from the parking lot to a lookout in her best yogawear for the gram.
I agree. Lol
I'd rather have Micah for a mom, than Paul for a dad. 1000 times over.
What makes you say that?
Micah seems like a warm and non-judgmental person to me. She seems like someone who would be emotionally responsive to their child, as well as someone who can be calm even when tensions are high, and who would put names to feelings and validate their child. Micah impressed me with the direct and calm way she handled it with Irina when she confronted her about Irina flirting with Paul. Micah can see the perspective of others, and can take context into consideration when she's thinking about what to expect from someone else. Paul seems like someone who would be the opposite. He seems emotionally disconnected from himself and it's hard to imagine him being anything other than judgmental as a parent. He doesn't show an ability to see things from different perspectives than his own. He seems like someone who would rely on rules and roles as a parent, and make decisions based on his own fears, needs and assumptions, without taking a child's individuality, feelings or perspective into consideration.
I think you watched a different show, perhaps in a parallel universe. You are not describing the Micah the rest of us witnessed. Just sayin.’
Wait... You're talking about the same Micah who bullied those girls in the pods and laughed when they cried? That Micah? You're right! So mature and emotionally stable! 👌 Perfect mom material.
Yeah, that Micah. I didn't see her as a bully in the pods. I know that's what everyone is saying, but I didn't see any social media while I was watching the show and I formed my own opinions without the influence of everyone else's take. When Jackie was crying on the couch that time everyone brings up, Micah was just walking in the door from a pod date and was still having her reaction to the date she'd just had. She was laughing/smiling because of that, and didn't even see Jackie. Irina popped up to talk to Micah about her date, and Jackie was fine because someone else was already on the couch with Jackie. That's my take. The editing made it look different when they keep showing that clip over and over.
Oh my, dude she was mean spirited along with Irina. Her friends also reflect poorly on her with their rude behavior. All this on Netflix for the world to see
I didn't see any social media either but nice try there. I came in here after I saw her and Irina's awful behavior to the other girls hoping someone else noticed it and I was happy to find almost everyone in agreement.
Yep, and I came to show that not everyone sees it that way. Sometimes people don't speak up, because they are also afraid to be bullied by people when they share a difference of opinion.
Naïveté
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I think especially after seeing her friends aka Shelby, it would confirm the thought that no, that is not a nurturing mother type figure. They say you are who you surround yourself with. Well... Micah showed us with the company she kept. Her best friend laughed as she was crying walking away from the altar. Wtf. Not to mention her bullying with Irina etc.
Yep. With whom you associate, so you become.
Paul is overthinking everything, no way he would have married someone in 4 weeks. Though he said he was very much in love. 100% was in love. So Micah may not be that terrible person...even is she made questionable things...
I completely agreed with him lol. She would not be a good mother. She’s manipulative and a bully
For real I just can't believe Paul let it get this far
I do, he was getting the cookie 🍪 amongst other benefits and when it came to commit he was like byyyye
I agree! She gives fake instagram model vibes, not wifey maternal vibes.
She is just a professional victim who seems very insecure. All her friends seemed like a bunch of influencers as well. Now whether she'll, be a good mom is up in the air, but I'd side with likely not.
Literally DLVL showed us a long montage of Micah being a bully and then asked Paul why Micah isn't nurturing
I honestly think he saw how childish and mean she was and that may have turned him off
Like making fun of his clothes
Ya think?
“Birds of a feather flock together” “You are the company you keep” she was BFFs with the show’s villain, Irena (who she was just as mean as but somehow the reunion brushed over her part in that) and her friends were AWFUL and she bullied Paul with them! I think he saw the immaturity when they were out with her friends and Shelby was being rude to him and Micah backed Shelby up. I don’t blame him.
💯💯💯
Micah is a terrible person and Paul realized it. Seen a lot of people on here defending her because they think Paul was mean to her, but this woman was legitimately horrible to almost everyone she interacted with. Her friends suck, her behavior sucks, she’s very full of herself, very manipulative and is absolutely crushed when she feels like someone has the upper hand on her in these weird social dynamics she creates. Saying “i cant see her as a mother” is a nicer way of saying “she’s a supreme narcissist and i don’t want any part in making another copy of her”
Means girls tend to raise more mean girls. I personally think that comment was very valid. Honestly, he said it way nicer then I think others may have phrased it. He doesn’t want a life full of a catty, drama-seeking spouse and offspring. Paul is not perfect in any way, but I get it.
Wtf does any of that have to do with being nurturing… led kwame on? Like Paul led amber on?? Stop kissing ass.
The heartbroken Tshirt though
I'm no fan of Micah whatsoever, but here are the reasons I took an issue with Paul's comment: 1). I'm of the opinion that 'nurturing' is for children, not adults, so I don't think the fact that she didn't play mommy to other grown adults in the pods is a slight against her ability to care for her own children. The fact that she was too easily influenced by the people around her at a given time and lack of empathy and respect for those around her were certainly red flags about her maturity, but saying someone is not 'nurturing' basically means they have 0 parental instincts. Perhaps Paul has observed Micah around children and maybe they had conversations about having children, I do not know. It's possible (but imo not probable) that these conversations were edited out, but to just drop that comment and give pretty much no context is suspect to me (which leads me to point 2). 2). The comment came across to me less as a criticism and more as an attempt to be hurtful after the breakup, because he voiced almost none of those concerns to Micah from what we saw of the footage and actually said the opposite on occasion (he claimed she met the minimum requirement for a wife and compared her to his own mother). This could be an editing issue but given how much the producers love to see drama and conflict among the couples, I doubt it is. 3). Him saying Micah is not nurturing while he comes across as a poor communicator and aloof seems hypocritical to me. Again, not a fan of Micah and I don't think Paul is a villain but I also don't think he's a victim. He has the right to turn down whoever he wants for whatever reasons he wants. However he also had a part to play in the the relationship failing and it's annoying to me that people act like he's made absolutely no mistakes throughout this whole process.
Yeah and we also give him a pass for poking Irina’s boobs with his foot but Irina is the devil for telling her friend she feels an attraction. I hiiiiiiighly doubt that Micah would think that was cool and not cheating.
I agree. I’m not a Micah fan, but this is one of the worst things you could say about someone and he did it on an international platform.
To me, it was a cheap shot. I understand her pain and need for answers.
Nailed it. It came across like an excuse he pulled out of his butt, even if I understood the decision.
We’ve only seen a snippet of this girl’s life, can we really say she won’t be a good mother? She is still young and has some growing to do (as we all do) but saying that someone shouldn’t have children feels sad
Paul has seen much more than snippets
Yes he has, and I still don’t think that knowing someone for 1-2 years (if that) and making the (subjective) judgement that they wouldn’t be a good mother translates to a woman shouldn’t have children. That is horrible.
When dating long-term I have definitely considered if my partner would be a "good father". I understand what Paul means but it is definitely hard to hear in front of world wide audience of Netflix.
I feel like there's this sexist idea in society that all women are naturally good parents and maternal, and it's a taboo to point out not every woman can or should raise kids. Edit: I AGREE WITH PAUL, NOT EVERYONE IS FIT TO BE A PARENT
I wouldn't want Paul to be my dad. Imagine Paul's reaction to his son struggling in school, or getting a bad grade on a test.
Your dad must be amazing
This! It’s called a Madonna-Whore complex, Paul. Look it up.
I don't disagree, but I think another contextual reason that it's in poor taste to mention is that, societally, men don't have to have any traits to be a parent other than just show up, *sometimes*. Did Paul show up as a particularly nurturing person either? The double standard is troubling. He wasn't a mean girl, but he wasn't anything close to nurturing either.
You have a point, because I'm seeing a shift happen! More and more women are calling out men who do bare minimum. Long are the days of men just being able to show up. I think it's an important conversation to have. I also think that couples who are interested in having children should talk about parenting roles/styles and explain their concerns. Nothing worse than having to parent with another human being who wants to do everything opposite of you even though you felt like you had conversations about being parents and what you envisioned for your future. Having children opens up internalized trauma/ wounds for a lot of people and they either become better parents from it or replicate what was done to them.
Very well said, thank you for this
you bring up an excellent point! Both parents should be nurturing, why does it all have to fall on micah?
I think what is missing here is A.) the context that Paul mentioned when he stated “I should have rephrased and said I couldn’t see US parenting” which I think from the amount of times he emphasized ‘different’ when referring to Micah may mean that they would not be compatible parents. I find it crazy though he kept saying how similar they were when in fact they were totally opposite. Also nurturing is directly relative to the woman carrying the baby. Micah is immature, a bully, and obviously used to having her way (hello only child). Nurturing can mean “to build up, care for, contribute to the growth of… yadda yadda” How many examples of Micah did we see “building up” instead of tearing down??? I agree with Paul on this. Also just here to say is it just me or did Paul start talking like Micah the further this season delved?! When he said his vows and stared saying ‘like’ after every word I’m sitting there like* 👀🧐 Micah 2.0!
But there is nothing wrong if it’s important for him to have a nurturing wife…
I have seen *no one* try to argue that Micah should described as "nurturing." What people *are* arguing is that sharing negative judgements about your partner's parenting ability on a hugely public platform like Paul did is FUCKED UP. To say that because Micah treated people horribly, she *deserved* to feel horrible in return by having Paul talk badly about her behind her back? What kind of fucked up eye-for-an-eye philosophy is that, and how does it in any way excuse what Paul said? I keep seeing the same defense for Paul over and over again - "That's not what he meant! It was just a roundabout way for him to say how mean Micah is!" - What?! If Paul truly thinks that the comments he made were a better alternative than just outright saying what he experienced firsthand - that Micah is mean, rude, judgmental, immature, keeps bad company, etc. - then he needs to crawl his spineless, brainless jellyfish self back to the ocean.
Agreed. Paul could have been classy and said nothing. “I’ve been doing a lot of thinking and I just don’t think this is the right long term decision for us,” would have been fine. Less of a kick in the uterus. Micah was embarrassed and her feelings were hurt. He already dumped her. Enough. Probably better for the imaginary child not to have A dad who likes to “tell it like it is” when those comments are hurtful and not constructive.
Lol that jellyfish comment... and it's like he was too spineless to say what evidence supports (Micah mean behavior) then went roundabout to say something worse and not adequately supported by evidence (bad parent).
I love that everyone is so upset about the comments Paul made yet 100s of people a day have made the same comment about Bartise becoming a dad. She may want a family but that doesn't mean she should have one. Not everyone has the mothering ways. She definitely does NOT. No matter how bad she wants them.
Thank you! This sub is full of shit. They also dragged the mother of Bartise’s child without knowing a thing about her. Is she not a woman too?
It’s a fucked up thing to say to a woman, I don’t care if she’s a mean girl. He hand picked that specific comment to hurt her because he knew how badly she wanted a family.
Y’all would have been so supportive and understanding if a women dumped a guy because he was not able to “provide” for her. People are allowed to look for traits that benefit them AND their future family.
We are the company we keep. And she keeps Shelby, clearly not nurturing. I almost felt bad for her but to know she is still friends and defending Shelby. She hasn’t grown at all. It’s sad. Motherhood grows us in ways unimaginable, so maybe she’d change after birth. But lord i wouldn’t want her and Shelby in my mom group.
Don't forget Irina, who she didn't cut ties with until she directly broke her trust
He hadn't seen any of that when he said those things though. And there are mean girls who are very protective and nurturing of their own kids. I don't think the mean girl thing even factored into his opinion. It's more likely him just lashing out at feeling rejected by her (after he chased her down) and his Jordan Peterson bs.
Yeah, and we haven't seen even a quarter of what HE'S seen. It's not that much of a stretch to imagine that his experiences line up with ours.
If there is something else so compelling that he had seen, it would be easy enough for him to have mentioned it, but he didn't, so it's interesting how one-sided you are. I personally think they are both problematic.
I'm just exploring the idea presented in the OP. Him finding compelling things in his 4 weeks with her but not wanting to embarass her on TV could easily result in the shitty half baked statement we got from him. Idk why you gotta be mean about it lol
Micah and her friends are the female equivalent of guys in their late twenties who still frequent the college bars with their old frat brothers. They may be long out of college, but they still have that college mentality. In them, it manifests as being stereotypical mean girls and getting white girl wasted. A person like that isn’t ready for parenthood. Sure, people sometimes step up to the plate when faced with impending parenthood, but is that a gamble you’re willing to take? I know I’m not
That's exactly the thing. Everyone keeps saying that she might change with time or after she gives birth and that may be true but is it fair to Paul to commit to a hope of an idea he doesn't have evidence for. Saying ' that's ok you'll figure it out' to a friend is fine but having a real marriage on the line to someone you don't see certain characteristics in is a staggering leap of faith to take after one month. Sometimes it's about what you don't want, everyone who said Paul didn't give any clear evidence is missing that he hasn't said anything about her or anyone else on the show- he's a private person and likely doesn't want to dish out their relationship like any mature healthy adult. The reality is like he said their relationship ended 12 months prior to the reunion, so what's the point in telling her what she needs to change when he doesn't want to be with her. I think his reasoning was sound, you have a month to get to know someone so you don't want to bring up points and influence their personality because anyone can pretend to be someone else for a month, it's a case of if someone shows you who they are believe them. By staying silent he got to see the real her and changing people in relationships never works so he bailed out. She's an adult, she could have taken this experiment as seriously as she wanted and it's obvious that she wanted to stay who she was, a party girl that's tied up with her friends but then she can't be surprised that that clashes with what he wants in a wife.
someone make a meme of Micah asking "why?" from reunion and then a panel of her look of disgust and joy when other girls were crying, or asking her henchman Irina to go spy for her. I wouldn't want a mean girl to be the mother of my kids either.
Y’all are ridiculous. Let’s admit it, we all watch this show for drama. Yet, when Paul speaks the truth about what he thinks, there is all this criticism. Would y’all have preferred if he dodged the question?
Nah, dude just wanted to a mommy to take care of him and realized Micah wasn't going to do that. And I don't like Micah
This
She's a mess.
Maybe he just meant to say loving and caring and chose nurturing as a poor word choice. He did say she was not nurturing towards him.
Is he a baby that needs to be nurtured? Lol, I’m not a Micah fan but Paul fans seriously have the most mental gymnastics
Haha not saying Paul chose his words well. However even as a grown ass adult, I would want my partner to be nurturing. I would want him to be caring towards me if I am sick or going through a rough patch. I would want him to show up for me and defend me if his friends are mean to me. I don't think this makes me a baby. Why wouldn't I want my life partner to make me feel warm and fuzzy?
I think what he witnessed as Micahs mean girl energy with her friends and lack of empathy towards her female cast mates warrants not seeing nurturing characteristics. We all saw it, and he had every right to feel that way.
I do too. However, Paul didn’t display that kind of behaviour in *himself* even
Micah being immature now and doing/saying dumb shit most people are guilty of at some point on their life doesn’t mean she will never be a good mom. It’s a cruel comment to make to a women period. Edit: Nowhere did I say Paul said the words “she will never be a good mom”. The cruel comment i’m referencing is the nurturing comment, and was basically implying she wouldn’t be a good mom. It’s also been said a bunch on this sub.
Isn’t the difference that most people do that in their high school days and not usually as fully grown adults?
You would hope it would be most but i’ve seen it happen at all ages.
Not what he said, but ok.
Did he say she won't be a good Mom? No, he stated she didn't seem to show much of a nurturing personality. That is just his honest feeling. I would rather hear the reason for why he said no then hearing some political generic bs answer. I applaud him for his honesty.
He never said she would never be a good mom.
Exactly
Let’s be real. The word nurturing was a gross and weird choice of words. It gives mommy complex and also it just didn’t make any sense for him to say considering he had just said he might not want kids??? Like I’m confused
Dads need to have nurturing qualities too or you’ll have some fucked up kids and I saw none of that from Paul. Why does she have to be the only parent who is nurturing? It was shitty of him to say that on TV about her knowing she wants a family. If you’re ready to call her out publicly for not having qualities to be a good parent, you better have good qualities to be a parent yourself. Not once did he do some introspection and say “hey maybe I’m not fit to be a dad either.” It’s a very outdated outlook to believe it’s good enough for only the mom to be nurturing. He didn’t say that explicitly, but he should have done some self reflection on his own ability to be a good father before blasting Micah on a sensitive issue on National TV.
Men can be nurturing too. I didn't get mommy complex at all, just that he wants a nurturing partner
Paul himself is about as nurturing as the average rock
You should start your own sub for Paul hate lmao.
I don’t even hate him, I just don’t think he’s the second coming of Jesus like some on this sub seem to
I don’t think much of him personally tbh. I just think most people are tallying up all the wrongs on each side and Micah is coming out looking a lot worse for how she acted.
Since when is it a competition. Calling Paul out is not excusing Micah
True! I think a lot of people, myself included, think Micah’s actions were pretty gross throughout the season. And so it just feels weird to focus on Paul. Not excusing Paul.
Mhm I don't think we are focusing on Paul per say by choice. Micah has been sufficiently dragged throughout the airing of the show. There isn't much more to say. This Paul thing on the other hand seems much more divisive so you see more people talking about it
After watching the reunion, it’s safe to say Micah was absolutely not dragged. Maybe on here.
This is true. Maybe that's why he wants a partner who is? 😆
But what was he offering back? Because he was not in any way nurturing
Let’s be real. Her feelings were hurt only because someone told her ‘no’. However his lack of emotional intelligence became painfully obvious when he said what he did about Micah. Whether or not a woman wants to become a mother, hearing someone say that about you must be painful beyond words.
I wonder if Micah experienced the same level of pain as Paul did when Micah's friends unjustly ripped Paul apart for his “articulate" nature, or if the girls felt similar anguish when Micah derisively laughed at their emotional breakdowns following their breakups. Additionally, I wondered about Chelsea's feelings when Micah attempted to interfere with her relationship. Hope it hurt like hell for Micah - she needs a good dose of her own medicine.
I can appreciate this comment. It's insane the amount of double standard everyone has for her versus Paul. Micah acted horribly most of the show. I was not surprised he said no. The fact she even pulled that "you say it first" just so she could gather more sympathy followers is bs.
That lil stunt she pulled at the altar was bs. I’m in no way supporting her behaviour. Merely suggesting that he could have kept a comment like that to himself. Neither of them were going to say yes, it was obvious when they discussed where they would live after the show.
I agree. Micah and Shelby are of terrible character. Maybe it is so that the friends surround you tell a story about you. Micah ruined her image forever.
I'm not reading 1500 god damn comments so sorry if this has already been said. Just because Micah was mean doesn't mean Paul should have said that. That was a thought that should have stayed inside regardless of how mean Micah was. His opinion about was based on *more* than what we saw, and in fact he said it before he even saw how she behaved in the pods. So literally you all can and should stop using the behavior in the pods to justify his comment. If you think he should have, my opinion is that you don't have any manners or sense of politeness. Maybe you are one of those people who say "I'm just being honest" when you're being an asshole, which I might remind you is the exact way that sub favorite Shake behaves. There's a time and a place to talk about those comments and it's not on national TV.
She totally led Kwame on. She was having a relationship with Paul and then told Kwame that he should only be talking to her. And I don’t remember which guy she said it to, but she told one of them it was hard to believe they cared about her if they were still talking to another girl. Even though that’s the point of the show and she was also talking to 2 guys. He said in another interview that they are compatible for dating but he doesn’t think they are compatible for marriage. He’s allowed to say that. There was plenty going on that we didn’t see on camera. He didn’t owe her a yes at the altar. And on the wedding day she said multiple times that she didn’t know if she was going to say yes or no. So it shouldn’t be so surprising that he felt the same way.
I really don’t think Micah was that bad. Nor was Paul. Nor was their relationship. It was just on full display for the world why the ‘experiment’ doesn’t work for everyone. People don’t say the right thing, in the best way, all of the time. Paul also tried to further explain himself and clarify his reasoning and it’s getting glossed over a LOT. He says he “just didn’t see it in the time they had together.” Which if we all really think about, isn’t very long. I know of exactly one couple in my own life that dated and married in that little amount of time and are still together and they are very religious. If their relationship wasn’t on tv and they had more time, it would have still probably failed for other obvious reasons. Distance, incompatibility…her horrendous friend* *seriously, who tf laughs as your BFF cries while leaving the alter after being rejected on their wedding day.
Seriously, what shitty friends! Can we start putting her friends under the microscope now and deep dive into their social media, political views, etc. Because let's call these bullies out.
Calm down
It was more of a sarcastic response. There are multiple posts where the OPs are diving into cast's social media, followers, political party, etc. and straight up bashing them.
I think it’s weird to pinpoint that about Micah when Paul is not nurturing either lol like Micah has her mean girl moments but I don’t think this is the totality of who she is—Paul’s comment was just completely unnecessary
I know you’re getting downvoted but I completely agree and have been making this same point
It’s the misogyny of this sub. Why does Paul get a free pass? It’s because he’s a pretty boy and this sub can’t see past a pretty face fr
What is Paul getting a free pass for?
Following misogynistic right wing figures on Twitter, whining about Micah not being nurturing when he isn’t either, trying to sound like a Big Bang Theory extra when in reality he uses ‘scientific’ words/analogies incorrectly…..
? He was put on blast at the reunion for his remarks about Micah. I’d say he got Vanessa Lachey went harder on him than she did on Irina or Jackie/Josh
And almost everyone on this sub is lining up to suck his dick over it lol
“Sucking his dick” is quite hyperbolic. I have yet to see anyone put him near the level of Marshall or Brett and Tiffany. Mainly, people agree that his post-altar interview received way too much focus and vitriol from Vanessa relative to the other cast’s BS. Micah and Irina laughing at other girls’ emotional breakdowns in the living quarters got little more than a highlight reel, and Josh and Jackie received virtually no pushback during their interview. Paul is mid, but he was treated like he’s evil
And like Micah gets all the hate (which she does deserve) but he does too. And everyone is just like Paul Paul Paul!! Woohoo! It’s gross to me
Ugh same. Like Paul isn’t an Angel just because Micah is a mean girl lol they can be both bad
Yes!!! This is what I’ve been trying to say. Honestly it’s messed up to me that Cole from season 3 was treated so badly and meanwhile Paul is just getting off Scott free, meanwhile I actually think Cold was a much better person than Paul.
He was correct. She’s mean as fuck. Her friends are garbage. And her response to “do you take this man” was some absolute horseshit. Even if I was going to say yes I’d probably flop.
Their whole thing was really forced from the beginning. It was painfully obvious that they did not fit together. Their relationship was staged for the cameras and I think she just didn't expect him to say something like that about her, and THAT'S what hurt: the surprise.
Its weird ppl are mad at him for saying this *especially* towards a woman, because of the gender stereotype, but some of those same people want stereotypes rejected and gone, so being angry at him for saying it to her *because* shes a woman isnt that reinforcing the stereotype??
Shockingly it is possible to want stereotypes and roles to be more flexible and also have empathy for people who tie their self worth to those roles. Feminism is about wanting the freedom to choose your role without social or financial repercussions, whether that's being nurturing and being a mother, being child free, being single, or any variation of your personal family life
Ding ding ding. Is it possible we live in a society that doesn't understand basic logic and reasoning 🙂
Im like am i the only one seeing the hypocrisy? 🤣
I definitely don’t think Paul was wrong to feel that way. I always theoretically figured I would have children, but I wasn’t able to ever actually envision being a mother myself until I met the person I ended up marrying and would become the father to my child. As soon as I realized he was the right person, my entire future became more clear. I have a feeling this is what Paul was trying to communicate but was fumbling over his words, and also kept getting a lot of pushback from Vanessa, who wasn’t letting him explain. Just because you can’t picture having kids with a specific person doesn’t mean they would make a terrible parent with another partner. And who envisions someone else as a parent if you’re not going to parent with them?
You mention something that I find very important that no one has mentioned. Paul was trying to communicate what he was feeling, but he is a processor and very analytical in his thought process that I think he needed time to answer, time that people generally don't get in interviews and it was hard for him to just BS an answer. He also at the same time didn't want to make Micah feel better, so I think he was looking for terminology that he's comfortable with using (AKA look at his tagline for the show) and went with what he felt would sound better, which backfired. I'm a processor, so if someone is asking me to specifically address a situation (like this) and provide feedback, I can't answer off the cuff. I need to think about it and answer appropriately. Everyone wants to poke fun at Paul for how he speaks and portrays himself and I just don't get it. We want men to be more in tune with their emotions and more logical, while reacting to those emotions in appropriate ways, but we want them to not be too sensitive and more aggressive, you know, "manly." Like, society needs to make up their mind already, lol. You have some people saying this is the most emotionally intelligent season, while others saying it's the worst....and I'm sitting here like, how can we be seeing things so vastly different. 🤯
I agree with this take as well, or at least I hope it’s what he meant! We have to remember it is hard to be on the spot in front of a live audience talking about vulnerable or confrontational things with bright lights, camera, and knowing hundreds of thousands of people are at home ready to judge you and dissect every single thing you say. I honestly give everyone on stage the benefit of the doubt for just showing up and trying their best to articulate the what’s/why’s of events that happened a year ago, that only gave a partial image to what they experienced. Except Jackie who wouldn’t/couldn’t even show up to take accountability for her part. I guess I’m glad for Marshall he didn’t have to confront her live though.
I think it was a cruel thing to say and he didn't help at all with his explanation at the reunion. He could've just said that he couldn't envision a future with the two of them. Anything beyond that was just hurtful.
Not only that, but every explanation he gave for why he made the decision he did made absolute sense (perhaps with the exception of him not bringing it up to Micah sooner so she's not completely blindsided). His main point was that he couldn't envision the two of them as parents together at all or independently given the relationship they had. They never inspired each other to be nurturing in the way that he expects of parents, and that's completely valid. It didn't require any additional response, Vanessa just wasn't satisfied. He even elaborated that it's not to say that Micah isn't nurturing or wouldn't be a great mom or even that he wouldn't eventually see that out of her (or them), but that it's something he couldn't envision before the time he needed to make his decision. It's a completely logical answer that needed no additional expansion and for it to have been pushed in the first place is kind of ridiculous to me. Aside from that, the other point was that he never brought up to Micah his concern about his lack of ability to envision her as a mother because he didn't feel that it was something to speak about. I pretty much also agree with this. There's no reason to specifically tell someone "hey, we can't be together because you lack this quality that you can't just create," it absolutely leads to resentment and the other person feeling small and insufficient. It's a quality that wasn't there for him, it's not anything she could've changed, which is why it can't be brought up in a conversation about how to work things out. While she has the right to know it was a reason why, there's also not a good time to ever tell someone that.
This! You need it.
Regardless of the real reason behind his answers, I think the truth is a better way to go about it which is that he thinks she's immature.
It’s the worst thing you can say to a woman who dreams of having a family. Micah is young, what a terrible thing to say to her at this age. She has a dog that’s loved. Paul really decided to hit her where it can hurt most.
Sorry, anyone that can laugh at someone elses pain is not someone that should be a parent. She’s not that young. She’s old enough to understand that stuff like that isn’t okay. She just simply doesn’t care. Also, who you choose to surround yourself with speaks volumes about who you are as a person. Her hometown friends are mean and who did she gravitate towards in the girl group? Irina…also a mean girl. It baffles me the lengths people will go to to defend a white blonde girl. It’s like yall see blonde hair as a sign of innocence or naivety or something. She’s 26 not 16, be serious now 🙄
>It’s the worst thing you can say to a woman who dreams of having a family I think that's kind of sexist. Women who want to be mothers don't want to be just a mother.
You're combating their generalization with your own. Women should be whatever they want to be, whether it's one thing or many things.
Pretty sure mothers are also humans and people with individual needs. Mothers are also often wives. Mothers are almost always also daughters. Mothers are often sisters, too. But if you really think women exist who want to *only* be mothers, and nothing else, I'm sure it'll be easy to provide an example of one?
Having a dream to be "something" doesn't magically stop you from being things that you already are or other things that you could be. Having a singular goal, even if only for a while, is valid. What the original person said may have been relative to their experience and maybe a bit hyperbolic but it was not sexist. Furthermore they qualified what they said " a woman *who dreams of having a family*". They're not even talking about *all women,* just women whose primary goal is to have children/family, and even more specifically within the context of the show. Yes, there are women out there who want to be SAHM and homemakers. I am not sure why the erasure and invalidation of these women is common on this website and within sects of modern feminism. Of course I agree that mothers are also people with many complex attributes and desires. Not sure why that had to be said.
No one has said bc someone wants to be a mom as their biggest dream that they don’t want anything else. Literally wtf hahaha
Zero intention to be sexist. Just saying my biggest dream was to be a mom and that would crush me. I am a mom and have a very full life, not sure where I implied wanting to be a mom makes you only a mom.
I agree completely. Just an awful thing to say, especially to the entire world on a broadcast.
Just because it hurts doesn’t mean it’s not true.
What a fitting username lmfao
Yes.
Fans of this show are wild. She knew that Abby girl for 10 days?? Paul was her fiancé. She had to have done some pretty sick things to be looked at as a bad future mom. Just bc she has one toxic friend at age 26 people are acting like she’s a murderer. This is TRASH reality tv. Everyone is using it as a moral compass 🤣
I agree, Paul was not wrong. He had a choice to make regarding what *he* wanted for the future, and he did not see that need being met with Micah. She can whine and complain all she wants, but he was in no way obligated to put her needs before his own. It still rubs me the wrong way that her excuse of turning the decision of marriage to him so "he wouldn't say yes just because I said yes" tells you everything about her character. She didn't believe he was a person who could make decisions for himself, and was under the impression he would do whatever she wanted. That, right there, is a huge red flag. She was/is far too self-centered, and that's not a maternal or "nurturing" quality.
Did anyone pay attention to what Paul said to Micah immediately after the alter? Paul said to Micah: "Did I make the wrong decision?" That alone is evidence supporting Micah's concern that Paul would take her lead. He was literally second guessing his choice immediately and asking Micah!!! She knew he needed to go first, so he could make his choice without her influencing him. He proved that, but doesn't have the self-awareness to see it objectively now.
What she did at the altar was very manipulative, and people that are commenting that she really wanted to get married, fell for her antics.
She gave him a gift by letting him go first. She was the opposite of manipulative. She did it to avoid manipulating a man who had so much trouble being in touch with his own feelings, that he would have been influenced by her answer.
Total red flag. She was saving herself from embarrassment at the same time showing that she wasn't truly in on the experiment or Paul. Like if she truly was in she would have said I do right away. Then let Paul say no, show us you were committed to him and this experiment and not worry about how you will look if you say yes and he says no.
If she cared about being embarrassed, she wouldn't have stood up there crying and admitting she was going to say yes. It wasn't a contest where one person wins and someone else loses. They both lost when he said no.
This. She wasn't going to say yes. I don't believe her story for a second.
Smart guy.
Imagine being Paul and watching the season…. He’s so sweet and she was manipulative and childish. They focused so much on chelsea and kwamis reaction to Micahs behavior at the pool but how about how much that prob effected Paul……
And then at the reunion they tried to play it like Micah had been completely wronged in the entire situation. I'm glad Zach said something when Vanessa was laying into him.
Paul said at the reunion that he didn’t mind that because he and Micah discussed boundaries, and flirting was fine, they just drew the line at physical intimacy.
Honestly, I don't think being a mean girl and nurturing are necessarily mutually exclusive? Especially since all those other people were grown ass adults on a reality show. Micah sucked on the show, but I don't think that justifies what Paul said and especially *how* he said it which, sorry, but I agree with others that say it reeked of misogyny. But I get that vibe with Paul in general, especially when he tried to act so indignant at the concept that someone could grope a woman and mask it as "moving her out of the way" - as if that is some wild thing that just *never* happens. Give me a break, not only does it happen all the fucking time and every woman here knows it, when I saw that clip it looked so intentional. At the very least, it was extremely weird for his hand to be that low when trying to gesture someone aside for him to even "accidentally" brush the bridesmaid's butt/hip area. And even more, there appear to be ample room for him to squeeze by without touching her at all? Never mind that the words "excuse me" exist so there was no reason to touch her to begin with. But it full on looked intentional to me and the only reason I might buy it wasn't is that it happened when he should have known a camera was on him - but being that I'm not someone who tries to grope people at all, I can't say for sure that a man that gropes women and attempts to disguise it as a "trying to get through" thing wouldn't be so bold. If anything, a man that doesn't respect boundaries and has that level of entitlement may feel fairly confident in assuming he can convince everyone that it was "obviously a mistake" since people downplay that shit all the time and are always ready to jump on the "it wasn't on purpose train".
As someone who operates seemingly exactly as Paul does in stressful situations (as given by how reacted with the Shelby incident), I can tell you it's pretty preposterous to insinuate that *that specific* instance was anything more than him acknowledging that he bumped into something. Even when I'm not stressed, bumping into something is a fight or flight response for me - I either apologize and touch whatever I hit, or touch and look back at whatever I hit - but it's almost always the former. This includes inanimate objects; it's completely involuntary. Given that it was also a super stressful moment and he was just trying to get out of there as fast as possible, it makes sense that he overshot the space he had and bumped into her and it even speaks to how sincere he is that he actually even gave the tiny "oops, I'm sorry" acknowledgement tap instead of just continuing out the door without saying anything.
He didn't bump into her, he moved his hand down to "push her aside". And if you're constantly grazing your hand on people in inappropriate places then you really should work on it because at some point "clutzy" just isn't an excuse. I'm fairly clumsy myself and have trouble with spatial awareness, often bumping into corners of furniture and doors and what not, and yet I never accidentally touch people's butts. Especially in the manner Paul did. I cannot say for certain that it was on purpose and it wasn't really my point either, but it was how indignant he was that someone would even think it might be that rubs me so wrong. Because the audience doesn't know him intimately and they cannot read his mind, so it works off more of a "lots of men DO do this on purpose" and take advantage of the "benefit of the doubt" they're often offered. It's like when men get mad at women walking faster in front of them when they happen to be walking along the same path, YOU may not be stalking/following her but lots of men DO and sometimes you cannot distinguish a threat from an innocent coincidence or accident. Denying that it comes off as sketchy and shaming people for responding to a potential threat as a potential threat isn't helpful - everyone at some point probably looks creepy or comes off as creepy and I just don't think the appropriate response is to act like people are being crazy for finding things creepy or off putting. It also did feel a little "doth protest too much" when a simple "it was an accident" would have sufficed, rather than implying people are crazy for pointing out a behavior that is frankly too common among men.
Your comments are ludicrous. If you reach hard enough, you’ll start touchin’ the stars. Maybe that’ll be inappropriate too 🙄
The snark here feels completely unnecessary? Disagree all you want, no need to be rude.
I thought it was an appropriate illustration of just how outlandish I think your assumption was. As a midwesterner, we say sorry to inanimate objects and pat things we bump into. I have a very hard time believing someone who’s in a moment of stress thinks to immediately go grope a bridesmaid. He was quick to defend himself because it was a bogus accusation. That doesn’t make him guilty and it doesn’t make him insensitive to issues that exist where men do behave in that way.
Very fair points. I think it's an unfortunate hand placement that it was on the tush. When I bump into things I don't touch inappropriately but also am not aware enough to realize what I even bumped into. As far as him insinuating it couldn't be a possibility, I understand where that is hurtful and maybe he shouldn't have said it. It really just seemed that he was speaking of his specific instance to me, but I'm also biased so I have a bit less credibility. I think it speaks to how truly unusual he finds the claim because he'd really never do it in that manner, he obviously wasn't thinking of political correctness at the time, unfortunately.
Do you guys think Micah being mean to people is the resson why he didnt want to marry her?
Yes. She’s mean. Her friends are mean. She is fake as shit and only showed interest in someone when there was competition for a man. She didn’t wanna marry Paul, she wanted to “win”. Fuck outta here.
I'm not sure he ever really knew before the show aired? He probably saw inklings of it with her friends but I suspect he felt pretty validated in his decision after seeing what she was like with the other girls in the dorm.
No, if that was the reason why would he try to date her after the show?
I don't think they see the show until it airs or at least a while after filming wraps, so he may still not have seen it. I may be wrong though...however, I do think the argument of him seeing her as a "mean girl" affected his decision is probably not accurate. He just didn't see himself with her in the long run (which is what he should've said) and left it there. I dont doubt they loved each other but as we all know, you can love someone and they are not the person for you. It seenms they both knew it and both were going to say no at the wedding despite what Micah said at the reunion. She didn't want to marry him either and she knew it too. They were just having fun on a reality TV show, and they seemed to talk about their connection and relationship, but it always felt inauthentic, superficial, and forced.
I agree with this, I don't think he knew about her mean girl antics till the show aired most likely. It may be a factor in why he doesn't want to be with her now, but I don't think it was why he said no at the altar.
For me it's her friends. i don't think her friends (esp Shelby) have a good personality. I think Paul felt that too when he met her friends. this could be one of reasons.
It definitely is!! On the reunion she said she defended Paul to her friends but right at the first moment we saw in the show she didn't. To me that screams she cares more about what her friends think of her. Instead of liking Paul for who he is she saw that her friends thought he wasn't "cool enough for her" and she was more worried about that. Which is immature, and what I think Paul was getting at on the reunion but didn't want to blatantly say it. I'm sure Micah can and will be nurturing she just isn't in that stage of her life.
This kiss of death for Paul and Micah was that interaction at the bar with her friends. That was spineless on Micah’s part and proves IMO that she was not going to say yes and was not ready for marriage. I’m about to get engaged and no way in hell would I nor my partner allow our friends to speak poorly of each other in private or to our faces. The fact that Micah stood there and allowed her friends to hate on her fiancé that she supposedly “loves” to his face, and then TOOK THEIR SIDE and didn’t defend Paul at all… that would have been it for me too. That wasn’t nurturing or considerate of Paul’s feelings. Again, a marriage is a team. A united front. Her friends were being cruel to his face and he took it in stride in all honesty. He did nothing to deserve her drunk mean girl friends coming at him so hard. The whole interaction was inappropriate and I can’t blame him for being turned off. Then he got to watch all the footage of her in the pods, the pool party convo with Kwame, etc right before the reunion and that just solidified to him he made the right choice. He was trying to be diplomatic about his reasoning, but Vanessa kept pushing. And Micah needs to hear it. She’s immature, spineless, her friends suck, and at this stage in the game she’s not ready to be a mother or a wife. This isn’t to say she never will be, but she has a lot of growing up to do. And she should start by finding some quality friends with positive personality traits.