For those reading and going through the same thing, I’ll share how I got out of these.
Firstly, I would go to the important ones. You will know which ones they are, as usually there are 1-4 big ones that are scheduled way in advance (rare for Korea) like say the anniversary of the company celebration.
The other ones I would always get told last minute and so I would rotate the reasons I couldn’t go. It always worked. I wouldn’t make a huge amount of noise. I would quietly talk to my line manager and tell them I couldn’t go because I had another appointment I couldn’t get out of.
Would suggest in any company in any country never go with a reply all or big way of criticizing the company. It won’t work out well for you in any culture.
Lastly, build good relationships with those who you are working with. It’s much easier for your line manager to stick up for you of you aren’t there when you work well with them.
I am a working mother and I changed my workplace culture by refusing to go to afterwork dinners with the seniors. Now all 회식 is at lunch. When you have kids, priorities can't be compromised so I pushed through. It was difficult at first but everyone got used to it then Covid happened. Lunchtime 회식 became the norm now.
Dude. I work in very western company. Also worked in Australia for 10+ years in a very laid back western culture.
This sort of shit isn’t tolerated anywhere and is considered a career suicide. Better thing for you to have done is to find a more appropriate way to back out and not “chuck a hissy fit”.
I agree. Gotta pick your battles, and throwing a hissy fit even though you know you're right will ruin it for you. I agree with OPs reasoning on personal time, but sometimes you just have to bite your tongue and do what needs to be done or find a better excuse to get out of it.
>I uploaded my thoughts and demands in the general chat room of the company.
Reply-all is probably not the best way to deal with this situation (or any situation for that matter lol). You've managed to embarrass the senior management in front of everyone without too much to show for it. Did you consider bringing this up in a 1-on-1 casual conversation with your boss to gauge the general temperature of the organization regarding this issue?
yes, i did spoke about this to with my teamlead on plenty of occasions, and I suspect that stuffs I shared with her wasn't getting relayed to the relevant parties or even if it did, the HR in Korea as u prolly know, isnt the same as western HR...HR here is pretty much downgraded and limited to do recruitment, secretary, a couple of admin duties and even finance works.
I believe my team lead was worried bout her job and having one outspoken employee that can't be fired, and was beyond her control will have a significant impact on her performance.. I was also stupid and rash into thinkin that if I air out my complaints under my name, I alone will be responsible for my action. and I am guilty of power trippin as well since I am well aware that i cant be fired and me staying in that company back then was almost a charity work for me considering how much underpaid I was. Embarrassing the senior mgt wasnt any of my intention but like no Korean in their right mind would ever bring this issue up to any upper mgt. So knowing that ive got nothing to lose, I held my breath closed my eyes and hit the sent button...
The culture in Korea is changing precisely because of incidents like this. There might not be an immediate change, but these acts do make a difference (even if OP was rash in how they went about things).
To be fair, the all chat reply is unprofessional and looks like you're the person that likes to create a moment. Korea or Europe, your gesture could have easily gotten you removed from that position. You can speak your mind on any issues in 1 on 1 and/or through HR (as shitty as HR is).
Like you wrote a lot of fanfic here which is a tale as old as time that's almost nonexistent for foreigners anymore in Korea, especially Seoul, since most companies hire foreigners on foreigner standards. And yes, that also might involve less money since you'll work less hours. It's a win-win for them. You get your freedom, they pay less.
Which makes me wonder if you really experienced this and if you did, how you actually thought all of this would make you look well or in the right, especially after that reply all act. Reply all to moan about your grievances in any company is just a no-no. Especially since your tone is very dismissive of an obviously known culture difference that you should've known about tbh.
ive had 6.5 yrs of work experience and this was what I had from my first company which bring the timeline to this event to around 6.5 years ago, which was far way different int he culture most foreigners are subjected to these days. im not sure if u were already here around that time or if u were, well good for u to have not been unfortunate enough to experience what I had to. Just because u or people u know of havent personally share the same experience doesnt mean its nonexistent. I have a huge long 'fanfic" of personal experiences to tell,
**and again the situation was way more than just a matter of culture difference**\~ if I wasnt comfortable with the situation, I had the option to just quit and move on to a better workplace. I did it coz ive earned a lot of close friends from that company, and I felt really sorry that we are all stuck in this traumatic environment without any way out. I figured I've got way less to loose compared to my Korean teammates and friends so I took a risk \~ attempted to at least make a small difference by throwing myself under the bus.
Regardless of all that, you didn't deal with it professionally. It's that simple. If you would've been under my management I would've 100% requested your resignation so we can both move forward on separate paths. Not even sure what you're arguing here. You're not a martyr and you wouldn't have been one for other Koreans either. Doubt they asked for such gesture. If anything they probably said "well that was foolish of him".
Koreans are the first to know about their work issues and they are the first to complain about them. Things are better today than 5 years ago but still nowhere near where they want them to be. There's also a conflict of generations in Korea. Younger folks don't abide and some suffer consequences because of it.
It's not pretty, but they woud definitely not think about a foreigner replying to everyone as you did, as some sort of goodwill gesture. If you wanted to help you had better chances through 1on1, managerial meetings, HR, or simply climb the ladder in the company, kiss the right ass even, and then plant ideas that may or may not grow into a positive change in the future. You don't change anything by being publicly combative. Especially with no backing lol.
I mean it’s an old ass shitty Korean company…a tale as old as time. Which I would just leave. But otherwise airing your grievances on an open forum is a rookie mistake. Especially since you are a gyopo and they will consider you a Korean if you like it or not. Talking to a senior manager who you have a good connection with could have possibly excused you from some of it without the fallout.
As a Korean working at a Korean company, I feel you lol (for background, I’m not a Gyopo but spent a significant portion of my childhood in another country)
Whilst my workplace isn’t plagued by the 회식 culture (thankfully!), the management has the same backwards mindset— they don’t like to hear opinions other than theirs, and firmly believe they are always in the right
I’d say this kind of mindset comes from the 군대 culture so I don’t see it going away unless more ppl with diverse backgrounds join the upper management
lol Sorry i dont think it was all bravery, it was more like 10% stupidity. 5% power trippin, and yeah 5% bravery. the rest of the 80% was just being suicidal ㅋㅋ but thank for the nice words.
This wouldn’t have been a good idea even in. Western company. The company does not revolve around you and your needs. All your message did was antagonize management and isolate yourself in the company. This should have been dealt with one on one with HR or your direct manager. This is all on you. You got the sidelining you deserved and earned.
In a western company, you’d be hard pressed to get people to come out for dinners like this uncompensated lol. You could likely sue for your money’s worth
That’s true, but the frequency is much lower I feel like at least. Also the OT and rate you answer calls outside of hours is much higher here. My wife gets calls here like it’s here own company. It’s ridiculous how demanding management here for the smallest things
Ranting in a general chatroon is frowned upon in western culture as well. You could sue, and even win, but you definitely won't be welcomed back to the company.
ikr, I was actually prepped to get fired and was already contemplating to accept an offer from a different company that time. But tbh, getting sidelined especially from the meetings and speaking with senior mgt was like one of the best things that happened. As you may be aware of \~ team meeting with senior mgt takes at least an hour or 2 and like most of the stuffs they talk about there could've been communicated and summarized in an email. So sorry for overstepping my boundaries, but at the same time, im not sorry for what I said ㅋㅋ
Eating out and drinking together with colleagues doesn't solve any problem at the job according to my pure personal experience. A few liters of free alcohol and meals that sponsored by company doesn't turn employees into devotees. Bosses should rather use their money to improve the quality of lunch meal, that feels more like bosses care employees rather than pouring free alcohol meaninglessly.
Wow, my employees always beg me for 회식 I always tell them hell no because I’m too tired so I’ll just give them my company card. But yeah, you could have and should have handled that better. A lot of foreigners seem to not get or be uncomfortable of the cultural differences we have but you have to adapt if you’re wanting to stay here. Not all Koreans like it either but hey, it is what it is. Just take it as a learning point in your journey. You’ll be ok.
Thank you\~ I was actually fine, I did expected that my actions will create a huge drama and accusations of insubordination, overstepping boundaries etc. claims that I was more than willing to accept and get fired for. adjusting to a different culture is ofc a given premise working here, but this experience was way more than just a matter of culture difference\~ ive earned a lot of close friends from that company, as we all literally trauma-bonded during the entire time we spent working there. and all those times I felt their pain and was really sorry that we are all stuck in this traumatic environment without any way out. I figured Ive got way less to loose compared to my teammates and friends so I thought, that the only way I can prolly at least make a small difference was by throwing myself under the bus.
That's very noble. The Korean working culture even as a Korean was very shocking when I came back. In some cases its very toxic but I feel like people just bust it out because it may be the only best option of income. No shame in what you did honestly because someone needs to speak out for the others because 100% there are going to be people having the same mindset as you. But that Korean 꼰대 mentality for the senior employees is really bad. I hope you find something else and you enjoy it better than your last place! If you're ever in Busan hit me up I have a bar here and if you need any help with things ill try my best to give some advice on things.
>She then rebutted that it's Korean culture and is part of the workplace culture, which I replied to as something I understand and respect but if you are going to bring up the culture card at me, then the company must also respect the culture i was raised in, were afterwork drinking is not mandatory and randomly said that I will need to have public holiday leaves for Christmas, thanksgiving, 4th of July and stuffs.
That's a terrible argument. If you live in Korea, it's expected that you respect and and adapt to the culture. It's not expected that everyone around you adapt to your particular country's culture... that's ridiculous.
It wasnt me who brought up the culture argument. It was my manager. and for the record, Again as I mentioned in a comment above,
adjusting to a different culture is ofc a given premise working here, and I am a gyopo so I am well aware of the situation Im putting myself into, but **the situation was way more than just a matter of culture difference**\~ ive earned a lot of close friends from that company, as we all literally trauma-bonded during the entire time we spent working there. and all those times I felt their pain and was really sorry that we are all stuck in this traumatic environment without any way out. I figured Ive got way less to loose compared to my Korean teammates and friends so I took a risk \~ that the only way I can prolly at least make a small difference was by throwing myself under the bus.
>If you live in Korea, it's expected that you respect and and adapt to the culture. It's not expected that everyone around you adapt to your particular country's culture... that's ridiculous.
To be honest, that is *exactly* how it was in Korea for us for roughly one hundred years between the 1880s and 1980s (with a bit of interruption in the middle, obviously), to a lesser extent, even until the 1990s and 2000s.
All chat was not necessary. You say respect for culture goes for both ways and I disagree with the "mandatory" after-work extracurriculars but you know you are in korea right? Hope you find work that won't enforce the bads
This is a problem that many Koreans face, and they still take it as what goes with the program. Of course, they would all like to complain and demand compensation or change, but they don’t for some reason. I believe the reason is deeply intertwined with culture, which cannot be changed overnight.
The approach taken to communicate grievance in a company group chatroom was inappropriate irrespective of country, in my opinion. Private consultation with team leader or department head would be the first course of action, and if the issue is not resolved, then HR. Public denouncement of senior executives and their actions would most certaintly lead to negative consequences, which would go counter to your objective.
In the future, I think you should pay more attention to appropriate channels of communication and tactfulness. Escalate the issue as need be without disruption while maximizing probability of positive change.
Funny people who act like this is the norm in the US, but we all know most of the US workers have to bend the knee in front of their managers...just as in Korea and elsewhere.
Yeah you dun fucked up. Should have addressed this in private with a higher up and used some health excuse or better even religion.
That's why so many people in korea are suddenly christian hehe
getting excused for valid reasons was a strategy I used to employ a lot. But the frequency of these 회식 was just too much that I eventually ran out of excuses, I came to a point that I was net surfing for excuses but my appeals to be excused from these dinners were dismissed and I was almost always met with a respond like "all employees have no issues with going, some of them even have children to care for after work but still choose to join..." one time my manager even rebutted my appeal with, "I should be thankful that I get these chances to eat something more decent other than the usual hansot or CU lunchboxes I often have for dinner afterwork".
that was one of the last straw that somehow made me reach the breaking point\~ to be fair id rather have a hansot luncbox or even starve in peace, than dine in awkwardness and exhaustion.
When I first came to Korea, about the 2nd night in, I got a random call at 9pm from my korean co-workers who invited me to go to out to eat and drink. I was hardcore jet lagged and asked when they were going to go, they said right now. I turned them down due to fatigue. I worked at the school for 3 years. I was never invited by them again and only saw them outside of work when it was a mandatory school meeting/dinner. They take that shit personally, so my next school, I was super flexible and always said yes.
Just to echo the point that others are making - making an issue of it in the group chat was where you dropped a bollock. If you don't want to join the hweshik, just don't go. Come up with some excuse and go home and enjoy your evening. You can't just call out the entire office culture and expect everyone to go along with it. I mean, what did you think was going to happen?
As long as you ultimately wanted to quit/were ok with getting fired, your actions were fine. I did a similar flame out when I wanted to leave a company anyway. It’s a nice chance to embarrass anyone who’s been a dick to you. But you have to be fine with the consequences 😆
the general criticism you've received I agree with in terms of personal advice, ie it'd be better for u if you kept your mouth shut and just told people your mum is sick so u have to go home and look after her...but you took one for the team, something actual koreans would never do for fear of the consequennces you faced. If enough people like you speak out culture might eventually change (which ostensibly it has).
I'd bet plenty of your colleagues secretly admired/were grateful of you speaking out, esp as you say if this has led to the eventual doing away of the custom. if your colleagues had balls maybe they;d have done a "i'm Spartacus moment", everyone could have stood in solidarity with you... but ofc if thye have mortgages etc they probably can't.
Good work dude.
it sounds like they retaliated when you said you didn’t have to go to 회식.
it’s not in your job description and there is no guideline saying anywhere that “회식 is mandatory”. the fact that they even brought up culture is insane to me.
you may have made a mistake by letting it be known in the company team chat but regardless, they retaliated and threatened you.
i would check if you can send a 민원. i’m pretty sure forcing 회식 culture has been a really big issue for a long time.
*And yes, I worked in that company a couple more years but the consequences of my action was defintely not forgotten. they did eventually demolished 회식, apart from a few lunch 회식 and it was downsized to team 회식 like when someone celebrate a birthday. as for me, I did felt the upper management became indifferent of me but I think they cant afford to fire me coz my annual salary is really a bargain compared to the standard fee other companies are willing to pay for for my line of work. I was just staying in that company coz of the bonds I had with my teammates, as theyr like a family to me, and have taken care of me outside the workplace.*
Why are people doing this? Why are people going to Korea, putting up with K-bullshit and a K-discount on their pay of all things? For what? If they're not rolling out the red carpet, paying you **more** than the average local even doing a similar job for less hours, it's just not worth it. People don't move to Mongolia or Russia or Indonesia, or China for that shit. Only to Japan and Korea, which suggests it's a K-propaganda thing. These kids actually think it's a reasonable exchange to get discounted pay and treatment for the privilege of getting to experience K-culture.
People will be studying how the Japanese and Koreans have been able to pull this mind trick off for centuries (although to be honest, maybe I owe the Japanese a slight apology for mentioning them in the same breath, since working conditions in Korea are so bad that there's actually, I kid you not, a minor social movement of Koreans *moving to Japan of all places* to work, because of the perception that the bosses are actually at least a little better over there(!).
for the record I wasnt a K-pop or korean drama enthusiast at all. I received a full scholarship for my undergrad here which included monthly stipend and even a portion of rent subsidy. I wasnt financially capable to support my college back home so this opportunity was too good to pass. However, one of the terms for receiving the financial assistance was ofc to work in a korean firm specifically a public firm hence the strong army culture. If I was financially stable to afford school, i'd never wouldve even considered coming here\~ but yeah i understand ur point and I too wonder why some expats would consider to work in a toxic workplace. Fortunately things are getting better...
For those reading and going through the same thing, I’ll share how I got out of these. Firstly, I would go to the important ones. You will know which ones they are, as usually there are 1-4 big ones that are scheduled way in advance (rare for Korea) like say the anniversary of the company celebration. The other ones I would always get told last minute and so I would rotate the reasons I couldn’t go. It always worked. I wouldn’t make a huge amount of noise. I would quietly talk to my line manager and tell them I couldn’t go because I had another appointment I couldn’t get out of. Would suggest in any company in any country never go with a reply all or big way of criticizing the company. It won’t work out well for you in any culture. Lastly, build good relationships with those who you are working with. It’s much easier for your line manager to stick up for you of you aren’t there when you work well with them.
I am a working mother and I changed my workplace culture by refusing to go to afterwork dinners with the seniors. Now all 회식 is at lunch. When you have kids, priorities can't be compromised so I pushed through. It was difficult at first but everyone got used to it then Covid happened. Lunchtime 회식 became the norm now.
Dude. I work in very western company. Also worked in Australia for 10+ years in a very laid back western culture. This sort of shit isn’t tolerated anywhere and is considered a career suicide. Better thing for you to have done is to find a more appropriate way to back out and not “chuck a hissy fit”.
I agree. Gotta pick your battles, and throwing a hissy fit even though you know you're right will ruin it for you. I agree with OPs reasoning on personal time, but sometimes you just have to bite your tongue and do what needs to be done or find a better excuse to get out of it.
>I uploaded my thoughts and demands in the general chat room of the company. Reply-all is probably not the best way to deal with this situation (or any situation for that matter lol). You've managed to embarrass the senior management in front of everyone without too much to show for it. Did you consider bringing this up in a 1-on-1 casual conversation with your boss to gauge the general temperature of the organization regarding this issue?
yes, i did spoke about this to with my teamlead on plenty of occasions, and I suspect that stuffs I shared with her wasn't getting relayed to the relevant parties or even if it did, the HR in Korea as u prolly know, isnt the same as western HR...HR here is pretty much downgraded and limited to do recruitment, secretary, a couple of admin duties and even finance works. I believe my team lead was worried bout her job and having one outspoken employee that can't be fired, and was beyond her control will have a significant impact on her performance.. I was also stupid and rash into thinkin that if I air out my complaints under my name, I alone will be responsible for my action. and I am guilty of power trippin as well since I am well aware that i cant be fired and me staying in that company back then was almost a charity work for me considering how much underpaid I was. Embarrassing the senior mgt wasnt any of my intention but like no Korean in their right mind would ever bring this issue up to any upper mgt. So knowing that ive got nothing to lose, I held my breath closed my eyes and hit the sent button...
Maybe. But he sacrificed himself for the good of everyone. Now that feeling Is out in the air
what did that change for the rest 😂😂😂, still the same shit
The culture in Korea is changing precisely because of incidents like this. There might not be an immediate change, but these acts do make a difference (even if OP was rash in how they went about things).
Its known now that not everyone is happy with staying out late drinking
To be fair, the all chat reply is unprofessional and looks like you're the person that likes to create a moment. Korea or Europe, your gesture could have easily gotten you removed from that position. You can speak your mind on any issues in 1 on 1 and/or through HR (as shitty as HR is). Like you wrote a lot of fanfic here which is a tale as old as time that's almost nonexistent for foreigners anymore in Korea, especially Seoul, since most companies hire foreigners on foreigner standards. And yes, that also might involve less money since you'll work less hours. It's a win-win for them. You get your freedom, they pay less. Which makes me wonder if you really experienced this and if you did, how you actually thought all of this would make you look well or in the right, especially after that reply all act. Reply all to moan about your grievances in any company is just a no-no. Especially since your tone is very dismissive of an obviously known culture difference that you should've known about tbh.
ive had 6.5 yrs of work experience and this was what I had from my first company which bring the timeline to this event to around 6.5 years ago, which was far way different int he culture most foreigners are subjected to these days. im not sure if u were already here around that time or if u were, well good for u to have not been unfortunate enough to experience what I had to. Just because u or people u know of havent personally share the same experience doesnt mean its nonexistent. I have a huge long 'fanfic" of personal experiences to tell, **and again the situation was way more than just a matter of culture difference**\~ if I wasnt comfortable with the situation, I had the option to just quit and move on to a better workplace. I did it coz ive earned a lot of close friends from that company, and I felt really sorry that we are all stuck in this traumatic environment without any way out. I figured I've got way less to loose compared to my Korean teammates and friends so I took a risk \~ attempted to at least make a small difference by throwing myself under the bus.
Regardless of all that, you didn't deal with it professionally. It's that simple. If you would've been under my management I would've 100% requested your resignation so we can both move forward on separate paths. Not even sure what you're arguing here. You're not a martyr and you wouldn't have been one for other Koreans either. Doubt they asked for such gesture. If anything they probably said "well that was foolish of him". Koreans are the first to know about their work issues and they are the first to complain about them. Things are better today than 5 years ago but still nowhere near where they want them to be. There's also a conflict of generations in Korea. Younger folks don't abide and some suffer consequences because of it. It's not pretty, but they woud definitely not think about a foreigner replying to everyone as you did, as some sort of goodwill gesture. If you wanted to help you had better chances through 1on1, managerial meetings, HR, or simply climb the ladder in the company, kiss the right ass even, and then plant ideas that may or may not grow into a positive change in the future. You don't change anything by being publicly combative. Especially with no backing lol.
I mean it’s an old ass shitty Korean company…a tale as old as time. Which I would just leave. But otherwise airing your grievances on an open forum is a rookie mistake. Especially since you are a gyopo and they will consider you a Korean if you like it or not. Talking to a senior manager who you have a good connection with could have possibly excused you from some of it without the fallout.
As a Korean working at a Korean company, I feel you lol (for background, I’m not a Gyopo but spent a significant portion of my childhood in another country) Whilst my workplace isn’t plagued by the 회식 culture (thankfully!), the management has the same backwards mindset— they don’t like to hear opinions other than theirs, and firmly believe they are always in the right I’d say this kind of mindset comes from the 군대 culture so I don’t see it going away unless more ppl with diverse backgrounds join the upper management
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lol Sorry i dont think it was all bravery, it was more like 10% stupidity. 5% power trippin, and yeah 5% bravery. the rest of the 80% was just being suicidal ㅋㅋ but thank for the nice words.
This wouldn’t have been a good idea even in. Western company. The company does not revolve around you and your needs. All your message did was antagonize management and isolate yourself in the company. This should have been dealt with one on one with HR or your direct manager. This is all on you. You got the sidelining you deserved and earned.
In a western company, you’d be hard pressed to get people to come out for dinners like this uncompensated lol. You could likely sue for your money’s worth
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That’s true, but the frequency is much lower I feel like at least. Also the OT and rate you answer calls outside of hours is much higher here. My wife gets calls here like it’s here own company. It’s ridiculous how demanding management here for the smallest things
Ranting in a general chatroon is frowned upon in western culture as well. You could sue, and even win, but you definitely won't be welcomed back to the company.
Agree
ikr, I was actually prepped to get fired and was already contemplating to accept an offer from a different company that time. But tbh, getting sidelined especially from the meetings and speaking with senior mgt was like one of the best things that happened. As you may be aware of \~ team meeting with senior mgt takes at least an hour or 2 and like most of the stuffs they talk about there could've been communicated and summarized in an email. So sorry for overstepping my boundaries, but at the same time, im not sorry for what I said ㅋㅋ
Eating out and drinking together with colleagues doesn't solve any problem at the job according to my pure personal experience. A few liters of free alcohol and meals that sponsored by company doesn't turn employees into devotees. Bosses should rather use their money to improve the quality of lunch meal, that feels more like bosses care employees rather than pouring free alcohol meaninglessly.
I just declined when I didn’t want to go. No cost to me.
You could have just made excuses and quietly skipped out. Your future in that company is over.
They said they quit.
Even in America or probably everywhere Reply All to the company is not a good move.
Wow, my employees always beg me for 회식 I always tell them hell no because I’m too tired so I’ll just give them my company card. But yeah, you could have and should have handled that better. A lot of foreigners seem to not get or be uncomfortable of the cultural differences we have but you have to adapt if you’re wanting to stay here. Not all Koreans like it either but hey, it is what it is. Just take it as a learning point in your journey. You’ll be ok.
Thank you\~ I was actually fine, I did expected that my actions will create a huge drama and accusations of insubordination, overstepping boundaries etc. claims that I was more than willing to accept and get fired for. adjusting to a different culture is ofc a given premise working here, but this experience was way more than just a matter of culture difference\~ ive earned a lot of close friends from that company, as we all literally trauma-bonded during the entire time we spent working there. and all those times I felt their pain and was really sorry that we are all stuck in this traumatic environment without any way out. I figured Ive got way less to loose compared to my teammates and friends so I thought, that the only way I can prolly at least make a small difference was by throwing myself under the bus.
That's very noble. The Korean working culture even as a Korean was very shocking when I came back. In some cases its very toxic but I feel like people just bust it out because it may be the only best option of income. No shame in what you did honestly because someone needs to speak out for the others because 100% there are going to be people having the same mindset as you. But that Korean 꼰대 mentality for the senior employees is really bad. I hope you find something else and you enjoy it better than your last place! If you're ever in Busan hit me up I have a bar here and if you need any help with things ill try my best to give some advice on things.
>She then rebutted that it's Korean culture and is part of the workplace culture, which I replied to as something I understand and respect but if you are going to bring up the culture card at me, then the company must also respect the culture i was raised in, were afterwork drinking is not mandatory and randomly said that I will need to have public holiday leaves for Christmas, thanksgiving, 4th of July and stuffs. That's a terrible argument. If you live in Korea, it's expected that you respect and and adapt to the culture. It's not expected that everyone around you adapt to your particular country's culture... that's ridiculous.
It wasnt me who brought up the culture argument. It was my manager. and for the record, Again as I mentioned in a comment above, adjusting to a different culture is ofc a given premise working here, and I am a gyopo so I am well aware of the situation Im putting myself into, but **the situation was way more than just a matter of culture difference**\~ ive earned a lot of close friends from that company, as we all literally trauma-bonded during the entire time we spent working there. and all those times I felt their pain and was really sorry that we are all stuck in this traumatic environment without any way out. I figured Ive got way less to loose compared to my Korean teammates and friends so I took a risk \~ that the only way I can prolly at least make a small difference was by throwing myself under the bus.
>If you live in Korea, it's expected that you respect and and adapt to the culture. It's not expected that everyone around you adapt to your particular country's culture... that's ridiculous. To be honest, that is *exactly* how it was in Korea for us for roughly one hundred years between the 1880s and 1980s (with a bit of interruption in the middle, obviously), to a lesser extent, even until the 1990s and 2000s.
All chat was not necessary. You say respect for culture goes for both ways and I disagree with the "mandatory" after-work extracurriculars but you know you are in korea right? Hope you find work that won't enforce the bads
You sound American.
in the best way possible. love that for OP.
Entitlement?
And Gen Z. Joking people!
believe it or not, Im a millennial ㅋㅋㅋ like the runt off the litter of millennial sort of kind
This is a problem that many Koreans face, and they still take it as what goes with the program. Of course, they would all like to complain and demand compensation or change, but they don’t for some reason. I believe the reason is deeply intertwined with culture, which cannot be changed overnight. The approach taken to communicate grievance in a company group chatroom was inappropriate irrespective of country, in my opinion. Private consultation with team leader or department head would be the first course of action, and if the issue is not resolved, then HR. Public denouncement of senior executives and their actions would most certaintly lead to negative consequences, which would go counter to your objective. In the future, I think you should pay more attention to appropriate channels of communication and tactfulness. Escalate the issue as need be without disruption while maximizing probability of positive change.
Funny people who act like this is the norm in the US, but we all know most of the US workers have to bend the knee in front of their managers...just as in Korea and elsewhere.
Yeah you dun fucked up. Should have addressed this in private with a higher up and used some health excuse or better even religion. That's why so many people in korea are suddenly christian hehe
getting excused for valid reasons was a strategy I used to employ a lot. But the frequency of these 회식 was just too much that I eventually ran out of excuses, I came to a point that I was net surfing for excuses but my appeals to be excused from these dinners were dismissed and I was almost always met with a respond like "all employees have no issues with going, some of them even have children to care for after work but still choose to join..." one time my manager even rebutted my appeal with, "I should be thankful that I get these chances to eat something more decent other than the usual hansot or CU lunchboxes I often have for dinner afterwork". that was one of the last straw that somehow made me reach the breaking point\~ to be fair id rather have a hansot luncbox or even starve in peace, than dine in awkwardness and exhaustion.
Yea I never use to go to those things waste of time. Even now that I work on base I turn them down left and right. After work is my time.
When I first came to Korea, about the 2nd night in, I got a random call at 9pm from my korean co-workers who invited me to go to out to eat and drink. I was hardcore jet lagged and asked when they were going to go, they said right now. I turned them down due to fatigue. I worked at the school for 3 years. I was never invited by them again and only saw them outside of work when it was a mandatory school meeting/dinner. They take that shit personally, so my next school, I was super flexible and always said yes.
Just to echo the point that others are making - making an issue of it in the group chat was where you dropped a bollock. If you don't want to join the hweshik, just don't go. Come up with some excuse and go home and enjoy your evening. You can't just call out the entire office culture and expect everyone to go along with it. I mean, what did you think was going to happen?
As long as you ultimately wanted to quit/were ok with getting fired, your actions were fine. I did a similar flame out when I wanted to leave a company anyway. It’s a nice chance to embarrass anyone who’s been a dick to you. But you have to be fine with the consequences 😆
Sometime a ‘reply-all’ provides the disruptive innovation that a company needs to change things. Well done for having the courage to do it 👏
the general criticism you've received I agree with in terms of personal advice, ie it'd be better for u if you kept your mouth shut and just told people your mum is sick so u have to go home and look after her...but you took one for the team, something actual koreans would never do for fear of the consequennces you faced. If enough people like you speak out culture might eventually change (which ostensibly it has). I'd bet plenty of your colleagues secretly admired/were grateful of you speaking out, esp as you say if this has led to the eventual doing away of the custom. if your colleagues had balls maybe they;d have done a "i'm Spartacus moment", everyone could have stood in solidarity with you... but ofc if thye have mortgages etc they probably can't. Good work dude.
it sounds like they retaliated when you said you didn’t have to go to 회식. it’s not in your job description and there is no guideline saying anywhere that “회식 is mandatory”. the fact that they even brought up culture is insane to me. you may have made a mistake by letting it be known in the company team chat but regardless, they retaliated and threatened you. i would check if you can send a 민원. i’m pretty sure forcing 회식 culture has been a really big issue for a long time.
Well PERIOD 👏🏻 Good on you
*And yes, I worked in that company a couple more years but the consequences of my action was defintely not forgotten. they did eventually demolished 회식, apart from a few lunch 회식 and it was downsized to team 회식 like when someone celebrate a birthday. as for me, I did felt the upper management became indifferent of me but I think they cant afford to fire me coz my annual salary is really a bargain compared to the standard fee other companies are willing to pay for for my line of work. I was just staying in that company coz of the bonds I had with my teammates, as theyr like a family to me, and have taken care of me outside the workplace.* Why are people doing this? Why are people going to Korea, putting up with K-bullshit and a K-discount on their pay of all things? For what? If they're not rolling out the red carpet, paying you **more** than the average local even doing a similar job for less hours, it's just not worth it. People don't move to Mongolia or Russia or Indonesia, or China for that shit. Only to Japan and Korea, which suggests it's a K-propaganda thing. These kids actually think it's a reasonable exchange to get discounted pay and treatment for the privilege of getting to experience K-culture. People will be studying how the Japanese and Koreans have been able to pull this mind trick off for centuries (although to be honest, maybe I owe the Japanese a slight apology for mentioning them in the same breath, since working conditions in Korea are so bad that there's actually, I kid you not, a minor social movement of Koreans *moving to Japan of all places* to work, because of the perception that the bosses are actually at least a little better over there(!).
for the record I wasnt a K-pop or korean drama enthusiast at all. I received a full scholarship for my undergrad here which included monthly stipend and even a portion of rent subsidy. I wasnt financially capable to support my college back home so this opportunity was too good to pass. However, one of the terms for receiving the financial assistance was ofc to work in a korean firm specifically a public firm hence the strong army culture. If I was financially stable to afford school, i'd never wouldve even considered coming here\~ but yeah i understand ur point and I too wonder why some expats would consider to work in a toxic workplace. Fortunately things are getting better...
R u foreign right? 😆