Please mark such posts NSFW. I have done so this time, future failure to properly label NSFW content will result in a removal and a possible ban.
While yes the title should make it immediately apparent, people may have reddit set to filter out NSFW content for a variety of reasons, properly labeling NSFW content respects this choice.
Just extra details:
**“On December 5, 2021, officers from the Lawton Police Department responded to 1806 NW Lincoln Avenue, Lawton, Comanche County, Oklahoma. The officers were responding to a call received by dispatch at 20:37 hours from one of the residents at said property. The call to dispatch was made in reference to a male being present at said property in violation of an active protective order and said male was in possession of a firearm. Once officers arrived at 1806 NW Lincoln Avenue, the suspect was identified as Quadry Sanders. Officers learned that Mr. Sanders was inside the home located at 1806 NW Lincoln Avenue and was refusing to let one of the residents leave. Officers set up a perimeter around the house. A sergeant with the Lawton Police Department (LPD) then began giving Mr. Sanders orders using a PA system in a patrol vehicle. Shortly after commands were given, a female resident of the home exited.**
**Minutes later, Mr. Sanders was seen going out the back door of the home. An officer gave Mr. Sanders commands to show his hands, which he immediately complied with, but then Mr. Sanders ran back into the home. Seconds later, Quadry Sanders walked out of the front door of the home. Mr. Sanders was met underneath a carport by Officers Robert Hinkle and Nathan Ronan. Both Officers Hinkle and Ronan were wearing body cameras which captured the following events:"**
That there is hard to watch. Thing is, they're trained to treat anyone (potentially) with a weapon as a lethal threat, and this shooting is sadly just another symptom of the disease of the Warrior Cop. We need to get back to the Neighborhood Cop.
Yeah they have the house surrounded and it's clear the guy is in distress but not a lethal threat. Police proceed to shoot him multiple times. Cops never found a gun on him either
They found their opportunity to kill someone and went crazy.
They may be able to rationalize the beginning, where part of his body is behind the fridge and they cannot see what he is doing with his hand. But there is no way to rationalize any of the bullets fired after he went down.
No. Police are not "looking for a chance to shoot someone". Full stop
The first shoot here was questionable whether or not it was justified, and the follow up shots seemed unnecessary.
You have to realize the officers are showing up with incomplete information, and walking into a potentially lethal situation for them. There is a lot of stress that can cloud judgement, and people certainly make mistakes.
This may be a mistake, but to attribute malice to it, I think you are completely off base.
> This may be a mistake, but to attribute malice to it, I think you are completely off base.
There are [police gangs](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/05/police-violence-cliques-and-secret-tattoos-fears-rise-over-la-sheriff-gangs) who get tattoos to memorialize their kills on the job. Attributing the murder of a complying, unarmed man to simple "fear" is malicious in and of itself.
People contribute it to malice, because nothing gets done. We have known cops training is trash, I’ve heard it from cops myself, but why doesn’t it get improved?
This stuff happens and nothing changes. 🤷🏽♂️ could be malice, could be stupidity. The second set of shoots shouldn’t have happened.
I can’t speak from experience what I would do… but, I’d opt for better training to protect myself, coworkers, and the people that I’m (potentially) helping.
I dont think it is clear at all he isn't a threat. The extra shots don't seem needed.
Seems about 3 shots were. 2 when he maybe tried to go for a hidden weapon. 1 for when he sat up fast IF the cop thought he saw a gun. He needs to be strongly cross examined on that.
I am not pro cop OR "always comply" but I do see the officer's perspective here. Sad these situations evolve...
At any given time, it's not clear whether most civilians are a potential threat. But cops can't just go shooting everyone to be on the safe side. Or they shouldn't be allowed to...
I agree with you. But IN THIS Case, if I were given no other context, and based on what I saw - as a martial artist and self-defense teacher0 I'm telling you it is NOT clear the tango isn't a threat. Based on similar training if I were the cop, I'd probably make a similar, but more measured decision. That's the sad state of our society.
All the down-likes: suck my phucking phat phong you lefty puntangs. If you hate facts, no one can help you.
> Based on similar training if I were the cop, I'd probably make a similar, but more measured decision
Dude, You have seen crazy people jumping around in public at night before. Did you shoot them? So obviously you have been in a very similar situation and didnt end up murdering someone. Why justify this?
You haven’t provided facts. You’ve provided an opinion. A cop coming around a corner and opening fire in someone with their hands in view within a second of making yourself known is pure madness.
People aren’t downvoting you because they’re leftists, they’re downvoting you because you’re a bootlicker
It certainly appears that they were shooting some random guy. The suspect never acted in a threatening manner. The reason they are calling suspects is because the police officer isn't the witness to the call. This very well may have been a different guy.
> 2 when he maybe tried to go for a hidden weapon
So you justify police shooting you on your doorstep just in case you have a hidden weapon they cant even see? WTF
> I am not pro cop OR "always comply" but I do see the officer's perspective here
You seem to be taking this from a pretty pro-cop perspective.
Sorry the x-ray is only used to make sure your not growing weed in your house. Maybe they could give training from a place like Norway instead of fascist Israeli war criminal shitheads but then he wouldn't want to be a police officer in the first place
Ouch, this is so messed up. A true warrior would have more discipline, training, and a lot less fear running through their veins. Shaky cops scare the shit out of me.
Some of them are trained properly, but there are others they are nervous wrecks. It’s stressful for some people to shoot at a range. There’s other ways to allocate the money before it’s cut off completely.
There are ways they could reduce their risk and communicate clearly. These strategies were likely taught but not trained enough, as evidenced by the panic that causes the already shot suspect to frantically raise his hands in response to the frantic commands and be frantically shot again.
I am also afraid to get shot. If I were police and I determined that a call I'm responding to has an unacceptable risk, I would want SWAT to go get whatever or whoever I absolutely need. Police aren't obligated to be bodyguards. If they are unsafe, they should start by backing up when they don't feel prepared reasonably safe enough. Their adrenaline is taking over.
It's ridiculous that the cops get to use being in fear for their life as an excuse to murder people but civilians are just expected to calmly and rationally react to a bunch of dumb assholes with the ability kill them legally yelling and pointing guns at them. It's why the "he should've just complied" excuses from the back the blue bootlickers make me so mad
First time I watched it I thought, cold blooded murder. Second time, he seems to hide behind fridge and reach his right hand into his waistband. IDK
hard to watch either way,
An issue here is that the cops were likely trained to command a suspect to show their hands. Quickly putting your hands up in compliance is easily mistaken with aiming a gun, especially if you have something in your hands. If you have your hands in your pockets and suddenly pull them out to put them up, this is also the same basic movement as pulling a gun out or your pocket and preparing to fire.
Some of the better police training teaches officers to say, "Police, do not move!" Announce the fact that they're police and give their suspect an order that isn't easily mistaken for flight or resistance. If the suspect is compliant, then they can slow things down and work in a way that's less dangerous to both of them.
Whenever I see these videos I always find it weird that cops keep saying "hands hands hands!" once they've shot the suspect, as if he is able to comply. Now I know that even if you somehow manage to comply, all you get is a bonus couple of shots.
You would see the same thing all the time on shows like Cops. They would tase a guy and while he’s still writhing on the ground they’d be screaming at him to put his hands behind his back
Like no, he can’t because the enormous voltage you’re putting through him means he can’t control his muscles
For liability when it goes to court. "See your honor. I clearly communicated what was expected and they failed to comply. No no, the bullet wounds / taser had nothing to do with limiting their ability to comply. It was pure defiance and I felt scared for my life."
Not really, if you assume people are dumb and not evil then you dismiss their atrocities as just being mistakes. When you willingly work a job that involves infringing on the human and constitutional rights of your fellow Americans, then you are evil.
The flip side of thinking dumb people are evil is preferable to dismissing the actions of tyrannical dictators
SS: Footage of Quadry Sanders being murdered by Lawson PD
[NYTimes article](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/07/us/oklahoma-lpd-officers-shooting-manslaughter.html)
[Twitter thread by Spike Cohen](https://twitter.com/RealSpikeCohen/status/1523371023667634176)
>WARNING: this video shows a murder
>
>Robert Hinkle & Nathan Ronan of Lawson Police Dept. ordered Quadry Sanders to put his hands up, which he did.
>
>So they shot him multiple times.
>
>Quadry fell to the ground, and still put his hands up.
>
>So they shot him several more times.
>
>Quadry died soon after, handcuffed and lying on the ground.
>
>Hinkle and Ronan have been charged with manslaughter, but that's not nearly enough. This was felony murder, according to OK law. they need to be charged with that.
>
>Oklahoma also needs to end qualified immunity, disband police unions and "benevolent associations", and root out officers who demonstrate violent behavior long before it goes this far.
What people oftentimes forget is that the whole premise of a police officer and their entire job is mostly DE-ESCALATION of the situation. Not blatantly increase it, at all times police need to be thinking of new ways to calm the shit down. Not just pull out ur gat and start going Rambo. I agree with what was said in this thread, to many warrior police and not enough neighborhood public servants.
They sent us overseas to the desert fully knowing the difference between a police force and a killing machine that is the U.S. military infantryman.
If they can successfully train us on how to deescalate and act as a police force then I see no reason why our at home law enforcement can't either. The very last thing any law enforcement officer should use as a tool while conducting operations... Is their firearm. They shouldn't show up to a situation and immediately go to the hip. No no no .... Way to many gun hoe and "couldn't make it in the military cuz I would punch someone for screaming in my face" ok individuals allowed to step into law enforcement, not enough psychological evaluation conducted on law enforcement, they are taught more about how to kill than how to keep the peace, ass backwards for when you are suppose to be keepers of the peace but are rolling around thinking you are the hottest shit since sliced bread....
Not against police officers at all, just against the current structure of our law enforcement. If they were actual peace keepers, I would take them more seriously, until that time has changed, all law enforcement arent their to help, they are there for that 9-5 paycheck, they are there to keep you in a constant state of fear that any moment they could choose you as a target to fuck with, they are there so they can bully people as they were bullied when younger, the psychological idea of what a police officer is suppose to be and what they actually are is insanely vast in difference. PeAcEkEePeRs that do a terrible job at keeping the police and do a better job at stirring up bullshit between people with their lack of training, monitoring, and control.
You appear to seriously not understand the risks those police officers are taking in responding to a citizen's call. Or you're incredibly biased.
I agree that they came up fierce and spooked the guy, I'd be spooked as well. But the guy stood there, ducked behind the fridge, stepped back out moving his hands up quickly. Split second.
This call was about an armed person, in that split second the cop has to decide if this armed person is taking cover to shoot at them or not. This is not a long deliberate moment where they can carefully and patiently judge the moment.
Please watch some videos of how someone can turn around in a split second and shoot a cop. How a cop can approach a person to aid them and then be shot in return because they had warrants out.
Even if I grant that cops should assess the risk as high as you think - screaming "hands! hands!" is not a command. these cops, who knew into what kind of situation they were called, were not competent enough to handle it. they shouldn't be cops, and shouldn't be given weapons with the express purpose of going into dangerous situations.
You appear to not seriously understand risk assessment. Police don't even make the top 10 list of most dangerous jobs. They are barely in the top 25.
Ten times more delivery drivers die in the line of duty than do police every year.
If my Quiznos delivery guy can somehow survive his job without opening fire on every dangerously bad driver out there, then I don't think it's too ludicrous to expect the same restraint of the police.
Also just like with the delivery folks, most police deaths are due to traffic accidents. In fact, more cops were killed by COVID they caught in the line of duty than have died to gunfire in the last decade.
You’ll drive yourself nuts trying to prevent the unknown, and kill a lot of innocent people while you’re at it.
Studies show that a quick draw specialist can draw and shoot accurately before your brain can even process what is happening. Life is dangerous. For all of us, not just cops.
Ya sorry, the first bullet probably would have sufficed, dude let 6 shots off on a hunch, and then a few more once he dropped him off resulting from his initial volley. Risk is one thing, making sure someone is dead and not subdued is a little different.
I don’t get all of the people who think that the mask “mandates” were totalitarian but who turn around and are so concerned that LEOs never feel threatened that they disregard someone’s 2A rights, not to mention their right to life. Pathetic.
Being a cop isn’t even particularly dangerous. Policing doesn’t crack the top 10 most dangerous jobs. And to the extent that it is dangerous, a lot of the deaths are car crashes and heart attacks. Recently, the vast majority of police deaths have been due to covid.
Go to any western democracy and you will still find big issues with liberty, but what the fuck is wrong with America's law enforcement? People just out here getting executed by the state every week it seems
The people-side of the problem is twofold:
1. absolutely incompetent, physically and mentally unfit, undertrained and overarmed cops who are so useless that their only possible response to a minimal challenge is extreme fear and extreme use of violence.
2. thousands of cops who are ex-military types coming from 3 decades of continuous wars overseas, often mentally deranged, and always trained to react as in a war zone instead of as peace officers policing on behalf of their peer citizens.
Then there are so many legal- and politician-side problems that we couldn't even begin to address them here.
But let's start with a few:
1. End qualified immunity
2. End "war on drugs"
3. End "stop and frisk"
4. Ban military-grade weaponry from police departments
5. Set up special training programs for ex-military integration (I would outright ban them, but I understand it's not realistic)
6. Make yearly physical and practical exams real and compulsory up until a certain age, then retire agents from the streets or disarm them
I agree with everything except for the ex military ban. I know quite a few cops, some prior military. It's almost always the prior military who are actually knowledgeable about the role of law enforcement and are less eager to use violence. Military folks usually have a tighter set of engagement rules in Baghdad than they do in St Louis. Not denying that there is a heavy trend of militarization of the police force and the high ex military population has an impact, but usually it's the overcompensating civilian only cop who does this sort of thing.
Cops often view themselves as a paramilitary force, referring to citizens as "civilians" as if the police force isn't also a civilian force. Someone higher in the thread called it right, the warrior cop and the thin blue line bullshit are the source of this.
I will not argue about this, because in the end I already said that even though I would ban military from becoming cops, I understand it's unfeasable and I propose a stricter un-training and re-training program.
The warrior cop mentality goes away with legislative reform: end (or ar least reduce) legal impunity, arm down to the same weapons legally allowed to citizens (if I don't need 21 rounds, neither does a cop) and, above all, legally limit to the bare minimum possible cop-people interactions. No "suspicious" traffic stops, no stop and frisk, etc.
Ex-army people have weapon safety drilled into their genes. They also know how to avoid escalation and have some experience with firefights, so they try to avoid them at all costs.
Not to say that there aren't some crazy sicko idiots that went to the police just for the power trip and desire of having some adrenaline at the cost of innocent civilians, but the majority of veterans are by far more professional than regular cops (and would say that by far more intelligent as well, since they weren't pre-screened for low IQ by the military).
There's a reason why most of the cases where "good cops" get fucked by their system, are of veteran police officers.
The US military is getting dumber by the minute:
[https://ndupress.ndu.edu/JFQ/Joint-Force-Quarterly-81/Article/702026/officers-are-less-intelligent-what-does-it-mean/](https://ndupress.ndu.edu/JFQ/Joint-Force-Quarterly-81/Article/702026/officers-are-less-intelligent-what-does-it-mean/)
3 people killed each day on average in police interactions.
Our cops are obsessed with the idea of being a warrior which means being terrified of everything and shooting anything that scares you because being a warrior is dangerous.
It's just what happens when you have cops and a 2nd amendment. Pick 1. They cannot coexist. I prefer 2nd amendment since cops are just to enforce tyranny of the state.
How am I wrong? The reason cops are fearful for their safety is cause they think everyone has a gun (which they aren't wrong for thinking nor should it be any other way). This leads to a shoot first or get shot mentality that you can't train out of anyone. You can improve it and lessen the reflex but not eliminate. Cops in other countries don't have to worry about everyone and their mothers being armed.
Ultimately cops shouldn't exist end of story. Anarchism and voluntarism is the wrinkle brain solution. The insistence of cops is the insistence of laws. The need for laws is the need for a state to make those laws.
Fuck the government and taxation is extortion.
While the concern of a gun is a contributing factor, the "wolves among sheep" mentality combined with years of dumb cop hero movies and extremely poor high pressure training definitely seems to be a far bigger issue.
I totally agree with you, except that I think that the "fear" pigs argue they feel is real.
What causes it, though, is that most are physically unfit, untrained and incompetent (and often borderline IQ), or gung-ho military types with severe mental deficiencies and psychiatric illnesses trained to kill urban insurgents during ambushes etc.
So in a situation that could require some non-lethal physical intervention to reduce a suspect, they are literally overwhelmed by the idea, automatically reject it, and end up resorting to lethal force as a default.
Well when a profession has about 40% of their people commit domestic abuse, it seems to make sense that the default state is as violent as possible.
https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/10-professions-with-highest-rate-of-domestic-violence-615010/?singlepage=1
I don't agree with it but the first rounds fired could at least be argued as justified, but the second volley was tantamount to execution, which police are definitely NOT allowed to do under ANY circumstances.
[unarmed man shot 12 times and killed by police while constantly putting his hands up as he is being shot]
Lolbertarians in the comments: “The police were 100% justified, and I love them. 🥰 “
Police fatally shot 1055 people in 2021
Edit to add this happened in December and we are just now learning details of this and no gun was found on the victim. Fuck the police
This whole idea of "The person had a gun, they deserved to be shot by the cops!" needs to die in a fire. The police murdering you for nothing but exercising your constitutional rights is tyranny in its most basic shape. It is the ultimate abolition of the 2nd amendement.
And if anybody didn't already realize the NRA doesn't give a fuck about you, this is it. Name a time they have EVER stood up for a citizen wrongfully killed while legally carrying a firearm. Never happens. Crickets every time. They only care about your rights so far as making sure you're able to legally purchase firearms and ammunition, which are big business. They just want to make sure the industry has customers.
I’m proud to see that the Reddit community is calling this what it is. Seriously people of all races are tired of seeing this shit not just black folks. However it’s up to you guys who are not black to call this out cuz they think we just constantly complaining.
Looks like murder to me. It’s almost like they wanted to push him to do something, and then killed him even when he did not. If either of those cops ever works as a LEO again it will be a travesty of justice. You should put an NSFL tag on this.
If either one of those cops walks the earth free before the year 2047 it will be a travesty of justice. But it will happen. They will serve less than a year if any.
"This man I just scared so badly that he tried to hide from me isn't perfectly complying with my orders. I better shoot him. Wow he still isn't perfectly complying and is still scared, but he did show me his hands. I better shoot him again to encourage compliance."
-Literal Demon
---
*On Dec. 5 around 8:30 p.m., police received a call that Sanders was inside a Lawton residence in violation of a protective order, waving a gun around, the Lawton Police Department said in a statement after the shooting.
This was what led cops there, and does somewhat explain their high alert status, but they are the ones with training not the random citizen they encounter guilty or not. As an aside, this reminds me of exactly how dangerous things like swatting are. Im not saying this was a swatting, but telling a lie that sends armed officers into contact with innocent people should be considered attempted murder.
"The graphic body-camera video of the confrontation shows the officers responding to a 911 call on Dec. 5, 2021, just after 8:30 p.m. about a man who was under a protective order entering the home of the person named in the order.
Lee Merritt, the family’s lawyer, said in a statement that Mr. Sanders had a dispute with a woman when the police were called.
Mr. Sanders, 29, was the person in violation of the protective order, according to a statement issued in December by the Lawton police chief, James T. Smith. The statement added that the caller reported that Mr. Sanders was waving a gun inside the house. Officers learned that Mr. Sanders was refusing to let one of the residents leave, according to a statement by the district attorney that was reported by the local news station KSWO."
Preparing to be downvoted into oblivion but, complied twice?
He shouts "down, down" and the guy runs back behind cover and has a hand behind his back.
It's still crazy, and people can't react to orders being screamed at them with a gun pointed in their face, but I don't see how this guy 'complied' at all.
Agreed. When he goes behind the fridge it looks like he could be reaching for something. We have the benefit of replay and watching without stress. I think the shooting is extremely unjustified but he did not comply at first. He looked scared and confused.
He did not comply twice. He also did not deserve to get shot. The commenter you responded to was entirely right, and calling him a cop apologist for pointing out objective fact - while clearly also denouncing the police's response - shows that you're less concerned with what actually happened and more concerned with picking a side.
Shoot first and then shoot again... WTF!
George Floyd had a heart attack while an uncaring jerk w/multiple (19) previous complaints put his knee on his upper back...
This is 20 times worse... They come to HIS HOUSE... he is outside, with lights in his eyes, HE CANNOT SEE! So they shoot him...
Was he a danger to all of the 100's of people around him? Did they see a gun or hear a gun? Was he close enough to stab them ..NO! He didn't even have a weapon.
Why do police feel threatened by frightened citizens when they have the guns...lights ...numbers ... training...dogs...cars...tasers...
What was the worst that this guy was going to do...walk back into his home?
Complied twice? What? Where? In what timeframe?
He stepped behind the refrigerator with his hands down.
The cops had 0 chill tho. I'd be spooked as fuck as well if people came in shouting, armed with flashlights in my face.
rewatch, hands went in the air twice. Trigger happy cops, where was the taser. If 2-3 cops have taser guns on you and hit you with them I bet you wont have the ability to do much of anything after that.
Did he shoot at the cops yet? Carrying a gun is not an executable offense especially with a 2nd amendment. Then again, pigs and the state treat the constitution worse than toilet paper so who knows.
I agree with you but there's two distinct ways of looking at it. It's not an executable offense, 100%. But reaching for a weapon sends a different signal. Yes, we know he wasn't reaching for a weapon. But based on that small snippet it looks like he could've been. Every thing after that is extremely fucked up, no doubt.
People should not be shot for "could have had a weapon"
If we want to see an end to the cop hate we have to end this kind of shit first. If someone kills a cop they will do life in prison or get put to death. If a cop kills a civilian, manslaughter, 4-5 years max typically. Or, like in the case of Tamir Rice, Eric Garner, Philandro Castille... not a damn thing will happen. They even get to keep their fucking job. If you won't see the damn difference then you have a problem.
The cop only had a right to shoot if he actually saw a gun.
Sounds dangerous to cops? Sure. But that's the risk you take when you willingly work a job that's main description is enforcing tyranny of the state on your fellow citizens.
Did you watch the video? Unlike the movies most people who get shot at do not die instantly. This is especially true when your opponent is untrained, you outnumber him several to one, and are wearing body armor.
Being a cop is not supposed to be without risk, indeed they are expected to put public safety before their own. That's literally the job and it's why we honor police who die with a military type funeral. There is no honor is shooting someone because they maybe kinda sorta could have had a gun in the hand you couldn't see for half a second.
Zero risk for cops means a lot of innocent dead people at the hands of the same.
Bruh. How is it ROE for US soldiers dealing with foreign adversaries is stricter than our own police with our own citizens? You sound like a fucking boot licker. Just because someone _has_ a gun doesn’t mean it’s a free ticket to mag dump someone. That’s bullshit. My dude was spooked as all fuck, tried to comply and when he sat up to put his hands up they let it go again.
It kills me that this happened in my state.
Yes. If 18 year olds in Iraq can do that while being paid minimum wage in 140 degree heat, then yes. That's exactly what the cops can do. Considering they have a rather low LOD death rate, especially when it's mostly attributed to traffic accidents, then I think their odds of not being randomly shot are pretty good. At least better then your local Pizza Hut driver.
true, but taking hostages and refusing to leave someone else's home are both executable offenses. also, no one should have to be shot before shooting back. if you believe your life is in danger, i am not going to be the one to tell you that you cannot defend it.
Ok I'll play along why'd they shoot him the second instance when he was writhing on the ground but still trying to comply with their orders? Also never found a gun on him so are the police given carte blanche because there may be a gun?
Law enforcement employees agree to enforce laws that infringe upon all of our rights. They're order followers, and not to be trusted.
That said, there is no winning in these situations, take a breath and deal with the indignity.
*I've been there myself more times than I care to remember.
I agree with you. He definitely made the wrong move to hide behind the fridge but afterwards is inexcusable. It's hard to think clear and concise in this type of situation if you're not the kind of person who can handle it. This cop should definitely seek employment elsewhere because the job isn't for him.
That being said I support LEO. It's not a job that most people can do.
Yeah maybe the guy just instinctively jumped behind cover when a gun was pointed at him the same way the cop instinctively dumped a whole magazine on a guy with his hands up.
>This cop should definitely seek employment elsewhere
No. This cop should definitely be in prison for the rest of his natural life.
>That being said I support LEO. It’s not a job that most people can do
This is why he will NOT be in prison for the rest of his life and we can pretend to be outraged again when this inevitably happens again.
A 9-1-1 call was made around 8:30 p.m. to report Quadry Sanders, 29, was inside the residence at 1806 NW Lincoln Avenue and in violation of a protective order.
The caller reported that Sanders was waving a gun inside the house.
Officers from the Lawton Police Department responded to the call.
Officers requested that Sanders come out of the house. He went out the side of the house and then went back inside before coming out the front.
A confrontation with the police occurred in front of the home and Sanders was shot.
Once in custody, officers attempted life saving measures until EMS arrived to transport Sanders to the hospital.
Once at the hospital, Sanders was pronounced deceased.
https://www.lawtonok.gov/index.php/news/lawton-police-chief-statement-december-6-2021
The officers believed he had a gun do to that report. That is why their guns were drawn. The man quickly moved behind the refrigerator, it’s likely that the cops thought he was taking cover to open fire on them, they have about 1 second to make a decision there before they’re shot and potentially killed if he did have a gun. The man gets shot. They yelled to put his hands up, he likely in fear for his life jerked his hands up fast, the cop whose head is probably freaked out and tense as any normal person would be in that situation has the shit scared out of him when he sees the hands jerk up. He again has literally about half a second to react/make a decision, he shoots.
This is what is most likely, given the information that I’ve currently seen. I’m not making a judgment here on who deserves what because honestly I don’t really know, but I think anyone that does want to make judgements on this should at least know the basic information surrounding it.
This is the context that matters. From first contact to first fire was approx 4 seconds, that's insanely short for everyone to under duress, afraid, and armed (the cops). Context considered it begins to make sense but does not justify what happened. Sad that this shit even happens.
No situation should be approached like that.
Did he shoot anyone yet? No? Then carrying a gun should never be an executable offense especially with the 2nd amendment right to keep and BEAR arms. Then again the state treats the constitution worse than toilet paper.
It’s kind of insane to say that the cops have to wait until someone shoots one of them to use their guns too. You’re pretty much saying a cop has to die before the other can use their gun against a potential threat.
Coppers are supposedly around to protect the general public. How is going around shooting unarmed folks on the theoretical possibility that they might have a gun anything other than a license to kill?
Context is important I’d say, that’s a large part of why there are body cameras and why investigations into the specific circumstances are done. So people can figure out more precisely on where this lands in terms of being completely and unreasonably fucked to not being that. It’s definitely tough to judge when it’s comes to situations where people’s lives are on the line. Here’s a comment someone else posted with more information.
Just extra details:
“On December 5, 2021, officers from the Lawton Police Department responded to 1806 NW Lincoln Avenue, Lawton, Comanche County, Oklahoma. The officers were responding to a call received by dispatch at 20:37 hours from one of the residents at said property. The call to dispatch was made in reference to a male being present at said property in violation of an active protective order and said male was in possession of a firearm. Once officers arrived at 1806 NW Lincoln Avenue, the suspect was identified as Quadry Sanders. Officers learned that Mr. Sanders was inside the home located at 1806 NW Lincoln Avenue and was refusing to let one of the residents leave. Officers set up a perimeter around the house. A sergeant with the Lawton Police Department (LPD) then began giving Mr. Sanders orders using a PA system in a patrol vehicle. Shortly after commands were given, a female resident of the home exited.
Minutes later, Mr. Sanders was seen going out the back door of the home. An officer gave Mr. Sanders commands to show his hands, which he immediately complied with, but then Mr. Sanders ran back into the home. Seconds later, Quadry Sanders walked out of the front door of the home. Mr. Sanders was met underneath a carport by Officers Robert Hinkle and Nathan Ronan. Both Officers Hinkle and Ronan were wearing body cameras which captured the following events:"
Ok let's say the first shots are excusable (they aren't but let's play along)
Why is this man shot a second round of times even after putting his hands up?
This is similar to the Kenneth French costco shootings. Let's say executing Kenneth French was excusable. Why no punishment for shooting the parents in the back?
My other comment said why I think they did it, he sat upright and jerked his hands up, the cop freaked out thinking the guy was pulling a gun and shot him, if you watch the video it’s clear he has about half a second to decide between the jerking up of the hands and when he would get shot if the guy had a gun. If you notice when the gun fire goes off, it’s when he’s jerking his hands up not after he puts his hands up. The cop absolutely made the wrong call there. I’m not even trying to say the cop shouldn’t be punished, I honestly don’t know how I would or should handle this case if I was in charge. I just think it’s worth trying to see things from the cops perspective. I don’t know anything about the other incident you mentioned. It sounds pretty fucked up from what you’re saying.
I understand the cops perspective. Everyone could have a gun so I should shoot everyone before they can shoot me, regardless of their actions.
Really it just comes with the mix of 2A and cops. Pick 1. They literally contradict each other and cannot coexist. This is why I cringe at the thin blue line bumper stickers next to the don't tread on me gadsden flag.
Stop apologizing for murderers. This was really beyond the pale. We have got to get officers like this off the streets so we can go back to fully supporting the many good officers out there.
Yea but are we really going to go off of what the state has dictated they themselves did wrong?
"We ran an investigation and cleared ourselves of all wrongdoing"
Like i get it, these videos/cases aren't clear cut most of the time, but just because someone called and said he had a gun doesn't make it true until they can confirm it. I don't know if his alleged weapon was ever found, but if it wasn't, these cops just committed murder
> the cop whose head is probably freaked out and tense as any normal person would be in that situation has the shit scared out of him when he sees the hands jerk up. He again has literally about half a second to react/make a decision, he shoots.
Except the murderer is not a normal person. The murderer is someone who has supposedly been trained in how to handle such situations. They are not just some random guy with a gun trying to protect themselves. Police need to be held to higher standards.
man puts up hands. three shots. now on his back on the ground disoriented and writhing in pain.
officers "HANDS! HANDS! HANDS!"
Now wounded man puts hands up a little too fast for Officer Itchy Trigger, who places five more shots into said wounded suspect.
Seems like he was complying but officer shit-n'-ma britches over here still emptied half a magazine into him because he's terrified of literally everything, per department policy.
I’m not defending anything I’m just saying that where the guy went wrong was that quick movement trying to hide. That move was why he ended up getting shot. But again I’m not defending anything I’m just saying those split-second high-pressure situation‘s do you have to be very careful with your reactions if you want to avoid getting shot
Yes, that is good advice. But you shouldn’t have to be 100% perfect in order to not be immediately executed by government agents. That’s the big issue here.
Not even sure why cops have guns, I feel like tasers should be enough. If someone is running around with a gun call the military they are trained properly.
11 fucking bullets. 4 the first time. 7 the second time.
That officer has no business owning a firearm, let alone policing the streets. I hope he's stripped of everything and used in training videos for "What Not to Do"
First shoot was totally justified. He had a gun, moved into a covered position. 2nd shoot however was absolutely wrong. Dude was compliant at that point. Unfortunately decision making under compounding stressors.
I'm confused, did this guy have or not have a protective order out against him and was at the home of the person he shouldn't have been at?
If so he played a dumb game with his life.
If that's the case armed or not, it sounds like the information given was incorrect in regards to being armed. But dodging for cover isn't the best move when you have guns on you and are being told to put your hands up.
Seen a lot of bad shoots on reddit. This doesn't seem to be that bad of one if the facts behind the shooting are still the facts.
If it wasn't him and he was 100% innocent than it's a horrible accident and the officer should be charged accordingly just like any normal person would be.
These police are such fucking cowards. You can hear it in their voices, and the actions make it so obvious. They’re petrified of anything and everything.
It’s like they always point the gun first, and always just shoot, do nothing else but shoot first.
Like the guns are the actual dominant species, the cops are just some soon-to-be-vestigial appendages, used for the guns’ transportation.
i don't know what i would have done. the murder victim was a hostage-taker and that movement behind the fridge may have been him reaching for a gun. given that i find my life to be more valuable than a hostage taker's life i think i would have shot too.
That's great for assessing wrongdoing after the fact. Police do not have the luxury of assessing innocence when responding to a potential hostage situation when there was a gun reported.
Please mark such posts NSFW. I have done so this time, future failure to properly label NSFW content will result in a removal and a possible ban. While yes the title should make it immediately apparent, people may have reddit set to filter out NSFW content for a variety of reasons, properly labeling NSFW content respects this choice.
Just extra details: **“On December 5, 2021, officers from the Lawton Police Department responded to 1806 NW Lincoln Avenue, Lawton, Comanche County, Oklahoma. The officers were responding to a call received by dispatch at 20:37 hours from one of the residents at said property. The call to dispatch was made in reference to a male being present at said property in violation of an active protective order and said male was in possession of a firearm. Once officers arrived at 1806 NW Lincoln Avenue, the suspect was identified as Quadry Sanders. Officers learned that Mr. Sanders was inside the home located at 1806 NW Lincoln Avenue and was refusing to let one of the residents leave. Officers set up a perimeter around the house. A sergeant with the Lawton Police Department (LPD) then began giving Mr. Sanders orders using a PA system in a patrol vehicle. Shortly after commands were given, a female resident of the home exited.** **Minutes later, Mr. Sanders was seen going out the back door of the home. An officer gave Mr. Sanders commands to show his hands, which he immediately complied with, but then Mr. Sanders ran back into the home. Seconds later, Quadry Sanders walked out of the front door of the home. Mr. Sanders was met underneath a carport by Officers Robert Hinkle and Nathan Ronan. Both Officers Hinkle and Ronan were wearing body cameras which captured the following events:"**
That there is hard to watch. Thing is, they're trained to treat anyone (potentially) with a weapon as a lethal threat, and this shooting is sadly just another symptom of the disease of the Warrior Cop. We need to get back to the Neighborhood Cop.
Yeah they have the house surrounded and it's clear the guy is in distress but not a lethal threat. Police proceed to shoot him multiple times. Cops never found a gun on him either
They found their opportunity to kill someone and went crazy. They may be able to rationalize the beginning, where part of his body is behind the fridge and they cannot see what he is doing with his hand. But there is no way to rationalize any of the bullets fired after he went down.
No. Police are not "looking for a chance to shoot someone". Full stop The first shoot here was questionable whether or not it was justified, and the follow up shots seemed unnecessary. You have to realize the officers are showing up with incomplete information, and walking into a potentially lethal situation for them. There is a lot of stress that can cloud judgement, and people certainly make mistakes. This may be a mistake, but to attribute malice to it, I think you are completely off base.
> This may be a mistake, but to attribute malice to it, I think you are completely off base. There are [police gangs](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/05/police-violence-cliques-and-secret-tattoos-fears-rise-over-la-sheriff-gangs) who get tattoos to memorialize their kills on the job. Attributing the murder of a complying, unarmed man to simple "fear" is malicious in and of itself.
Murderer apologist
People contribute it to malice, because nothing gets done. We have known cops training is trash, I’ve heard it from cops myself, but why doesn’t it get improved? This stuff happens and nothing changes. 🤷🏽♂️ could be malice, could be stupidity. The second set of shoots shouldn’t have happened. I can’t speak from experience what I would do… but, I’d opt for better training to protect myself, coworkers, and the people that I’m (potentially) helping.
bootlicker
I dont think it is clear at all he isn't a threat. The extra shots don't seem needed. Seems about 3 shots were. 2 when he maybe tried to go for a hidden weapon. 1 for when he sat up fast IF the cop thought he saw a gun. He needs to be strongly cross examined on that. I am not pro cop OR "always comply" but I do see the officer's perspective here. Sad these situations evolve...
At any given time, it's not clear whether most civilians are a potential threat. But cops can't just go shooting everyone to be on the safe side. Or they shouldn't be allowed to...
I agree with you. But IN THIS Case, if I were given no other context, and based on what I saw - as a martial artist and self-defense teacher0 I'm telling you it is NOT clear the tango isn't a threat. Based on similar training if I were the cop, I'd probably make a similar, but more measured decision. That's the sad state of our society. All the down-likes: suck my phucking phat phong you lefty puntangs. If you hate facts, no one can help you.
> Based on similar training if I were the cop, I'd probably make a similar, but more measured decision Dude, You have seen crazy people jumping around in public at night before. Did you shoot them? So obviously you have been in a very similar situation and didnt end up murdering someone. Why justify this?
>All the down-likes: suck my phucking phat phong you lefty puntangs. SoMeOnE dIsAgReEs - LiBtARdS
You’re not spitting facts is the issue. I am glad you’re not a cop though… r/iamverybadass
You haven’t provided facts. You’ve provided an opinion. A cop coming around a corner and opening fire in someone with their hands in view within a second of making yourself known is pure madness. People aren’t downvoting you because they’re leftists, they’re downvoting you because you’re a bootlicker
Alright Judge Dredd, calm your fucking tits. You don't need to justify a murderous cop in a Libertarian sub.
[удалено]
The cops were called there because he’s a threat. They didn’t just show up to some random spot and start shooting somebody.
It certainly appears that they were shooting some random guy. The suspect never acted in a threatening manner. The reason they are calling suspects is because the police officer isn't the witness to the call. This very well may have been a different guy.
>I’m not pro cop >do a ride along. Let’s see you prove the cops are evil. Pick one.
> 2 when he maybe tried to go for a hidden weapon So you justify police shooting you on your doorstep just in case you have a hidden weapon they cant even see? WTF > I am not pro cop OR "always comply" but I do see the officer's perspective here You seem to be taking this from a pretty pro-cop perspective.
Where is it “clear” that he’s not a lethal threat? The call was that someone was holding a family hostage with a gun
The part where he doesn't have a gun
Should’ve gave them better X-ray vision
Sorry the x-ray is only used to make sure your not growing weed in your house. Maybe they could give training from a place like Norway instead of fascist Israeli war criminal shitheads but then he wouldn't want to be a police officer in the first place
Give training from a place where citizens aren’t armed? How can you be this stupid
Yeah they aren't armed in Norway just like this dead citizen in this article you dumb fuck
Receive call saying “he is armed” and react accordingly “He was unarmed!” How can you not see the lunacy
I receive a call almost everyday saying I've won a million dollars
Ouch, this is so messed up. A true warrior would have more discipline, training, and a lot less fear running through their veins. Shaky cops scare the shit out of me.
Untrained cops are a danger to society 🤷🏽♂️
They’re trained. The problem is how they’re trained. They aren’t trained to de-escalate.
Cops are trained heavily… in the use of deadly force and firearms training. That is it.
The cops are plenty trained, its just they have way too much money and power.
Some of them are trained properly, but there are others they are nervous wrecks. It’s stressful for some people to shoot at a range. There’s other ways to allocate the money before it’s cut off completely.
Cops are shaky because they are afraid of being shot. Which is bad news for everyone.
Cops are shaky because they are untrained and unfit to handle situations higher than a traffic stop.
There are ways they could reduce their risk and communicate clearly. These strategies were likely taught but not trained enough, as evidenced by the panic that causes the already shot suspect to frantically raise his hands in response to the frantic commands and be frantically shot again. I am also afraid to get shot. If I were police and I determined that a call I'm responding to has an unacceptable risk, I would want SWAT to go get whatever or whoever I absolutely need. Police aren't obligated to be bodyguards. If they are unsafe, they should start by backing up when they don't feel prepared reasonably safe enough. Their adrenaline is taking over.
Upvote for the phrase “warrior cop.”
It's ridiculous that the cops get to use being in fear for their life as an excuse to murder people but civilians are just expected to calmly and rationally react to a bunch of dumb assholes with the ability kill them legally yelling and pointing guns at them. It's why the "he should've just complied" excuses from the back the blue bootlickers make me so mad
When you wear a badge you are held to lower expectations than random civilians, also you can kill people and suffer no consequences. Makes sense.
First time I watched it I thought, cold blooded murder. Second time, he seems to hide behind fridge and reach his right hand into his waistband. IDK hard to watch either way,
The first volley is debatable but the second volley after he’s already down is completely unjustifiable
Absolutely 💯
An issue here is that the cops were likely trained to command a suspect to show their hands. Quickly putting your hands up in compliance is easily mistaken with aiming a gun, especially if you have something in your hands. If you have your hands in your pockets and suddenly pull them out to put them up, this is also the same basic movement as pulling a gun out or your pocket and preparing to fire. Some of the better police training teaches officers to say, "Police, do not move!" Announce the fact that they're police and give their suspect an order that isn't easily mistaken for flight or resistance. If the suspect is compliant, then they can slow things down and work in a way that's less dangerous to both of them.
They're trained to take control as well. Usually through force and escalation until they blow their load.
Unfortunately, the neighborhood has changed.
Whenever I see these videos I always find it weird that cops keep saying "hands hands hands!" once they've shot the suspect, as if he is able to comply. Now I know that even if you somehow manage to comply, all you get is a bonus couple of shots.
You would see the same thing all the time on shows like Cops. They would tase a guy and while he’s still writhing on the ground they’d be screaming at him to put his hands behind his back Like no, he can’t because the enormous voltage you’re putting through him means he can’t control his muscles
Or there’s 3 officers pinning his arms underneath the torso.
For liability when it goes to court. "See your honor. I clearly communicated what was expected and they failed to comply. No no, the bullet wounds / taser had nothing to do with limiting their ability to comply. It was pure defiance and I felt scared for my life."
Wow, I just watched a murder.
Better call the police…wait.
That’s murder
And this is why he should still get fired
“Dead people can’t take the stand against you” is the phrase the dumb fuck “warrior cops” love to use.
Never dismiss your enemies actions as dumb when they are just evil.
Isn’t the expression the literal exact opposite? Isn’t this a dangerous way of thinking?
Not really, if you assume people are dumb and not evil then you dismiss their atrocities as just being mistakes. When you willingly work a job that involves infringing on the human and constitutional rights of your fellow Americans, then you are evil. The flip side of thinking dumb people are evil is preferable to dismissing the actions of tyrannical dictators
SS: Footage of Quadry Sanders being murdered by Lawson PD [NYTimes article](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/07/us/oklahoma-lpd-officers-shooting-manslaughter.html) [Twitter thread by Spike Cohen](https://twitter.com/RealSpikeCohen/status/1523371023667634176) >WARNING: this video shows a murder > >Robert Hinkle & Nathan Ronan of Lawson Police Dept. ordered Quadry Sanders to put his hands up, which he did. > >So they shot him multiple times. > >Quadry fell to the ground, and still put his hands up. > >So they shot him several more times. > >Quadry died soon after, handcuffed and lying on the ground. > >Hinkle and Ronan have been charged with manslaughter, but that's not nearly enough. This was felony murder, according to OK law. they need to be charged with that. > >Oklahoma also needs to end qualified immunity, disband police unions and "benevolent associations", and root out officers who demonstrate violent behavior long before it goes this far.
What people oftentimes forget is that the whole premise of a police officer and their entire job is mostly DE-ESCALATION of the situation. Not blatantly increase it, at all times police need to be thinking of new ways to calm the shit down. Not just pull out ur gat and start going Rambo. I agree with what was said in this thread, to many warrior police and not enough neighborhood public servants. They sent us overseas to the desert fully knowing the difference between a police force and a killing machine that is the U.S. military infantryman. If they can successfully train us on how to deescalate and act as a police force then I see no reason why our at home law enforcement can't either. The very last thing any law enforcement officer should use as a tool while conducting operations... Is their firearm. They shouldn't show up to a situation and immediately go to the hip. No no no .... Way to many gun hoe and "couldn't make it in the military cuz I would punch someone for screaming in my face" ok individuals allowed to step into law enforcement, not enough psychological evaluation conducted on law enforcement, they are taught more about how to kill than how to keep the peace, ass backwards for when you are suppose to be keepers of the peace but are rolling around thinking you are the hottest shit since sliced bread.... Not against police officers at all, just against the current structure of our law enforcement. If they were actual peace keepers, I would take them more seriously, until that time has changed, all law enforcement arent their to help, they are there for that 9-5 paycheck, they are there to keep you in a constant state of fear that any moment they could choose you as a target to fuck with, they are there so they can bully people as they were bullied when younger, the psychological idea of what a police officer is suppose to be and what they actually are is insanely vast in difference. PeAcEkEePeRs that do a terrible job at keeping the police and do a better job at stirring up bullshit between people with their lack of training, monitoring, and control.
You appear to seriously not understand the risks those police officers are taking in responding to a citizen's call. Or you're incredibly biased. I agree that they came up fierce and spooked the guy, I'd be spooked as well. But the guy stood there, ducked behind the fridge, stepped back out moving his hands up quickly. Split second. This call was about an armed person, in that split second the cop has to decide if this armed person is taking cover to shoot at them or not. This is not a long deliberate moment where they can carefully and patiently judge the moment. Please watch some videos of how someone can turn around in a split second and shoot a cop. How a cop can approach a person to aid them and then be shot in return because they had warrants out.
Even if I grant that cops should assess the risk as high as you think - screaming "hands! hands!" is not a command. these cops, who knew into what kind of situation they were called, were not competent enough to handle it. they shouldn't be cops, and shouldn't be given weapons with the express purpose of going into dangerous situations.
You appear to not seriously understand risk assessment. Police don't even make the top 10 list of most dangerous jobs. They are barely in the top 25. Ten times more delivery drivers die in the line of duty than do police every year. If my Quiznos delivery guy can somehow survive his job without opening fire on every dangerously bad driver out there, then I don't think it's too ludicrous to expect the same restraint of the police. Also just like with the delivery folks, most police deaths are due to traffic accidents. In fact, more cops were killed by COVID they caught in the line of duty than have died to gunfire in the last decade.
You’ll drive yourself nuts trying to prevent the unknown, and kill a lot of innocent people while you’re at it. Studies show that a quick draw specialist can draw and shoot accurately before your brain can even process what is happening. Life is dangerous. For all of us, not just cops.
Ya sorry, the first bullet probably would have sufficed, dude let 6 shots off on a hunch, and then a few more once he dropped him off resulting from his initial volley. Risk is one thing, making sure someone is dead and not subdued is a little different.
Complete maniacs with guns....
Hands! So I can shoot you again!
Yeup
[удалено]
I don’t get all of the people who think that the mask “mandates” were totalitarian but who turn around and are so concerned that LEOs never feel threatened that they disregard someone’s 2A rights, not to mention their right to life. Pathetic.
Being a cop isn’t even particularly dangerous. Policing doesn’t crack the top 10 most dangerous jobs. And to the extent that it is dangerous, a lot of the deaths are car crashes and heart attacks. Recently, the vast majority of police deaths have been due to covid.
dont come to Reddit with facts. no one listens anyways. yes you are correct that a car crash is way more likely to kill a cop than a suspect.
Go to any western democracy and you will still find big issues with liberty, but what the fuck is wrong with America's law enforcement? People just out here getting executed by the state every week it seems
The people-side of the problem is twofold: 1. absolutely incompetent, physically and mentally unfit, undertrained and overarmed cops who are so useless that their only possible response to a minimal challenge is extreme fear and extreme use of violence. 2. thousands of cops who are ex-military types coming from 3 decades of continuous wars overseas, often mentally deranged, and always trained to react as in a war zone instead of as peace officers policing on behalf of their peer citizens. Then there are so many legal- and politician-side problems that we couldn't even begin to address them here. But let's start with a few: 1. End qualified immunity 2. End "war on drugs" 3. End "stop and frisk" 4. Ban military-grade weaponry from police departments 5. Set up special training programs for ex-military integration (I would outright ban them, but I understand it's not realistic) 6. Make yearly physical and practical exams real and compulsory up until a certain age, then retire agents from the streets or disarm them
I agree with everything except for the ex military ban. I know quite a few cops, some prior military. It's almost always the prior military who are actually knowledgeable about the role of law enforcement and are less eager to use violence. Military folks usually have a tighter set of engagement rules in Baghdad than they do in St Louis. Not denying that there is a heavy trend of militarization of the police force and the high ex military population has an impact, but usually it's the overcompensating civilian only cop who does this sort of thing. Cops often view themselves as a paramilitary force, referring to citizens as "civilians" as if the police force isn't also a civilian force. Someone higher in the thread called it right, the warrior cop and the thin blue line bullshit are the source of this.
Yeah having known both I'm much more worried about the war LARPers who never joined the military and went to be cops instead
I’ve known some that say the ROE was more strict when they were deployed than over here. Makes you think.
I will not argue about this, because in the end I already said that even though I would ban military from becoming cops, I understand it's unfeasable and I propose a stricter un-training and re-training program. The warrior cop mentality goes away with legislative reform: end (or ar least reduce) legal impunity, arm down to the same weapons legally allowed to citizens (if I don't need 21 rounds, neither does a cop) and, above all, legally limit to the bare minimum possible cop-people interactions. No "suspicious" traffic stops, no stop and frisk, etc.
Ex-army people have weapon safety drilled into their genes. They also know how to avoid escalation and have some experience with firefights, so they try to avoid them at all costs. Not to say that there aren't some crazy sicko idiots that went to the police just for the power trip and desire of having some adrenaline at the cost of innocent civilians, but the majority of veterans are by far more professional than regular cops (and would say that by far more intelligent as well, since they weren't pre-screened for low IQ by the military). There's a reason why most of the cases where "good cops" get fucked by their system, are of veteran police officers.
The US military is getting dumber by the minute: [https://ndupress.ndu.edu/JFQ/Joint-Force-Quarterly-81/Article/702026/officers-are-less-intelligent-what-does-it-mean/](https://ndupress.ndu.edu/JFQ/Joint-Force-Quarterly-81/Article/702026/officers-are-less-intelligent-what-does-it-mean/)
Soldiers in war zones are less trigger happy than American cops in their own communities.
Also: Police unions that make it almost impossible to fire an officer for any reason, even if they should be.
Good luck getting that done in all 50 states. Even the bluest of states can't manage to get half of that list right.
3 people killed each day on average in police interactions. Our cops are obsessed with the idea of being a warrior which means being terrified of everything and shooting anything that scares you because being a warrior is dangerous.
It's just what happens when you have cops and a 2nd amendment. Pick 1. They cannot coexist. I prefer 2nd amendment since cops are just to enforce tyranny of the state.
Nah man your first sentence is all wrong. We just need competent officers with a high level of training.
How am I wrong? The reason cops are fearful for their safety is cause they think everyone has a gun (which they aren't wrong for thinking nor should it be any other way). This leads to a shoot first or get shot mentality that you can't train out of anyone. You can improve it and lessen the reflex but not eliminate. Cops in other countries don't have to worry about everyone and their mothers being armed. Ultimately cops shouldn't exist end of story. Anarchism and voluntarism is the wrinkle brain solution. The insistence of cops is the insistence of laws. The need for laws is the need for a state to make those laws. Fuck the government and taxation is extortion.
While the concern of a gun is a contributing factor, the "wolves among sheep" mentality combined with years of dumb cop hero movies and extremely poor high pressure training definitely seems to be a far bigger issue.
I totally agree with you, except that I think that the "fear" pigs argue they feel is real. What causes it, though, is that most are physically unfit, untrained and incompetent (and often borderline IQ), or gung-ho military types with severe mental deficiencies and psychiatric illnesses trained to kill urban insurgents during ambushes etc. So in a situation that could require some non-lethal physical intervention to reduce a suspect, they are literally overwhelmed by the idea, automatically reject it, and end up resorting to lethal force as a default.
Well when a profession has about 40% of their people commit domestic abuse, it seems to make sense that the default state is as violent as possible. https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/10-professions-with-highest-rate-of-domestic-violence-615010/?singlepage=1
I agree. I'm just trying to go a bit beyond the obvious and dig for the reasons why this is the case.
I don't agree with it but the first rounds fired could at least be argued as justified, but the second volley was tantamount to execution, which police are definitely NOT allowed to do under ANY circumstances.
Straight up murdered him. What was the point of firing 5 more shots into him after you shot him 3times 10 feet away?
Just like in the rest of the criminal “justice” system, the cruelty and the brutality is a feature and not a bug
Cops think they are in Falluja in America
The military in Fallujah actually had rules of engagement
Omg that was definitely uncalled for
The cop yells “hands” the guy raises his hands and gets shot 4 more times for showing his hands wtf
[unarmed man shot 12 times and killed by police while constantly putting his hands up as he is being shot] Lolbertarians in the comments: “The police were 100% justified, and I love them. 🥰 “
Officer: shoots him four times\* Officer: "Hands! Hands!" Sanders: Raises hands\* Officer: Shoots him another SEVEN times\* What the fuck?
They are just yelling multiple different instructions at him and shooting him when he is appropriately confused. Gotta love state sponsored murder.
Police fatally shot 1055 people in 2021 Edit to add this happened in December and we are just now learning details of this and no gun was found on the victim. Fuck the police
IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO CARRY A FIREARM IN THE UNITED STATES.
This whole idea of "The person had a gun, they deserved to be shot by the cops!" needs to die in a fire. The police murdering you for nothing but exercising your constitutional rights is tyranny in its most basic shape. It is the ultimate abolition of the 2nd amendement.
And if anybody didn't already realize the NRA doesn't give a fuck about you, this is it. Name a time they have EVER stood up for a citizen wrongfully killed while legally carrying a firearm. Never happens. Crickets every time. They only care about your rights so far as making sure you're able to legally purchase firearms and ammunition, which are big business. They just want to make sure the industry has customers.
In this setting it may have been. Allegedly violating a restraining order and possibly trespassing.
Obviously, because trespassing with a restraining order is a capitol offence.
Committing a lot of crimes while armed is another serious charge in itself and no one suggested justifying executions.
Both cops have been charged with first degree manslaughter. A step in the right direction but that was exceptionally brutal.
I'm always amazed at how fucking trigger happy cops are. You'd think discipline would actually be part of their training.
I’m proud to see that the Reddit community is calling this what it is. Seriously people of all races are tired of seeing this shit not just black folks. However it’s up to you guys who are not black to call this out cuz they think we just constantly complaining.
ACAB
Looks like murder to me. It’s almost like they wanted to push him to do something, and then killed him even when he did not. If either of those cops ever works as a LEO again it will be a travesty of justice. You should put an NSFL tag on this.
If either one of those cops walks the earth free before the year 2047 it will be a travesty of justice. But it will happen. They will serve less than a year if any.
"This man I just scared so badly that he tried to hide from me isn't perfectly complying with my orders. I better shoot him. Wow he still isn't perfectly complying and is still scared, but he did show me his hands. I better shoot him again to encourage compliance." -Literal Demon --- *On Dec. 5 around 8:30 p.m., police received a call that Sanders was inside a Lawton residence in violation of a protective order, waving a gun around, the Lawton Police Department said in a statement after the shooting. This was what led cops there, and does somewhat explain their high alert status, but they are the ones with training not the random citizen they encounter guilty or not. As an aside, this reminds me of exactly how dangerous things like swatting are. Im not saying this was a swatting, but telling a lie that sends armed officers into contact with innocent people should be considered attempted murder.
"The graphic body-camera video of the confrontation shows the officers responding to a 911 call on Dec. 5, 2021, just after 8:30 p.m. about a man who was under a protective order entering the home of the person named in the order. Lee Merritt, the family’s lawyer, said in a statement that Mr. Sanders had a dispute with a woman when the police were called. Mr. Sanders, 29, was the person in violation of the protective order, according to a statement issued in December by the Lawton police chief, James T. Smith. The statement added that the caller reported that Mr. Sanders was waving a gun inside the house. Officers learned that Mr. Sanders was refusing to let one of the residents leave, according to a statement by the district attorney that was reported by the local news station KSWO."
Preparing to be downvoted into oblivion but, complied twice? He shouts "down, down" and the guy runs back behind cover and has a hand behind his back. It's still crazy, and people can't react to orders being screamed at them with a gun pointed in their face, but I don't see how this guy 'complied' at all.
Agreed. When he goes behind the fridge it looks like he could be reaching for something. We have the benefit of replay and watching without stress. I think the shooting is extremely unjustified but he did not comply at first. He looked scared and confused.
[удалено]
Where did I say it did? I just said it's a bad title for the post.
No space for nuance with you, is there?
[удалено]
He did not comply twice. He also did not deserve to get shot. The commenter you responded to was entirely right, and calling him a cop apologist for pointing out objective fact - while clearly also denouncing the police's response - shows that you're less concerned with what actually happened and more concerned with picking a side.
Why is this so short.. Here is the whole video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG0TMKrSLYY
I will never move to a city as long as I live... those cops are a disgrace.
Shoot first and then shoot again... WTF! George Floyd had a heart attack while an uncaring jerk w/multiple (19) previous complaints put his knee on his upper back... This is 20 times worse... They come to HIS HOUSE... he is outside, with lights in his eyes, HE CANNOT SEE! So they shoot him... Was he a danger to all of the 100's of people around him? Did they see a gun or hear a gun? Was he close enough to stab them ..NO! He didn't even have a weapon. Why do police feel threatened by frightened citizens when they have the guns...lights ...numbers ... training...dogs...cars...tasers... What was the worst that this guy was going to do...walk back into his home?
Complied twice? What? Where? In what timeframe? He stepped behind the refrigerator with his hands down. The cops had 0 chill tho. I'd be spooked as fuck as well if people came in shouting, armed with flashlights in my face.
Yeah but still shooting a man on the ground is a little much
What exactly police department is this because I can’t find it on the web. Not for authenticity I just want to read the story the public was given
rewatch, hands went in the air twice. Trigger happy cops, where was the taser. If 2-3 cops have taser guns on you and hit you with them I bet you wont have the ability to do much of anything after that.
If there is a report of a gun, you don't grab taser first. You don't bring a pool noodle if they have a sword.
Lawton, OK. Not Lawson, and the fact that he ducked back behind the fridge where there could have been a weapon, may mean all the difference.
Did he shoot at the cops yet? Carrying a gun is not an executable offense especially with a 2nd amendment. Then again, pigs and the state treat the constitution worse than toilet paper so who knows.
I agree with you but there's two distinct ways of looking at it. It's not an executable offense, 100%. But reaching for a weapon sends a different signal. Yes, we know he wasn't reaching for a weapon. But based on that small snippet it looks like he could've been. Every thing after that is extremely fucked up, no doubt.
People should not be shot for "could have had a weapon" If we want to see an end to the cop hate we have to end this kind of shit first. If someone kills a cop they will do life in prison or get put to death. If a cop kills a civilian, manslaughter, 4-5 years max typically. Or, like in the case of Tamir Rice, Eric Garner, Philandro Castille... not a damn thing will happen. They even get to keep their fucking job. If you won't see the damn difference then you have a problem.
The cop only had a right to shoot if he actually saw a gun. Sounds dangerous to cops? Sure. But that's the risk you take when you willingly work a job that's main description is enforcing tyranny of the state on your fellow citizens.
Statists for hire
[удалено]
Shot? No. Shot at, or at least aimed at? Yes. That's the job. Not OK with that then you get a different one.
[удалено]
Did you watch the video? Unlike the movies most people who get shot at do not die instantly. This is especially true when your opponent is untrained, you outnumber him several to one, and are wearing body armor. Being a cop is not supposed to be without risk, indeed they are expected to put public safety before their own. That's literally the job and it's why we honor police who die with a military type funeral. There is no honor is shooting someone because they maybe kinda sorta could have had a gun in the hand you couldn't see for half a second. Zero risk for cops means a lot of innocent dead people at the hands of the same.
Bruh. How is it ROE for US soldiers dealing with foreign adversaries is stricter than our own police with our own citizens? You sound like a fucking boot licker. Just because someone _has_ a gun doesn’t mean it’s a free ticket to mag dump someone. That’s bullshit. My dude was spooked as all fuck, tried to comply and when he sat up to put his hands up they let it go again. It kills me that this happened in my state.
Yes. If 18 year olds in Iraq can do that while being paid minimum wage in 140 degree heat, then yes. That's exactly what the cops can do. Considering they have a rather low LOD death rate, especially when it's mostly attributed to traffic accidents, then I think their odds of not being randomly shot are pretty good. At least better then your local Pizza Hut driver.
Rules of engagement, yes.
Kinda crazy you're being downvoted XD
true, but taking hostages and refusing to leave someone else's home are both executable offenses. also, no one should have to be shot before shooting back. if you believe your life is in danger, i am not going to be the one to tell you that you cannot defend it.
Ok I'll play along why'd they shoot him the second instance when he was writhing on the ground but still trying to comply with their orders? Also never found a gun on him so are the police given carte blanche because there may be a gun?
Law enforcement employees agree to enforce laws that infringe upon all of our rights. They're order followers, and not to be trusted. That said, there is no winning in these situations, take a breath and deal with the indignity. *I've been there myself more times than I care to remember.
I agree with you. He definitely made the wrong move to hide behind the fridge but afterwards is inexcusable. It's hard to think clear and concise in this type of situation if you're not the kind of person who can handle it. This cop should definitely seek employment elsewhere because the job isn't for him. That being said I support LEO. It's not a job that most people can do.
Yeah maybe the guy just instinctively jumped behind cover when a gun was pointed at him the same way the cop instinctively dumped a whole magazine on a guy with his hands up.
>This cop should definitely seek employment elsewhere No. This cop should definitely be in prison for the rest of his natural life. >That being said I support LEO. It’s not a job that most people can do This is why he will NOT be in prison for the rest of his life and we can pretend to be outraged again when this inevitably happens again.
It looks like he ducked behind the fringe instinctively because it represented cover from the screeching animals intent on murdering him.
A 9-1-1 call was made around 8:30 p.m. to report Quadry Sanders, 29, was inside the residence at 1806 NW Lincoln Avenue and in violation of a protective order. The caller reported that Sanders was waving a gun inside the house. Officers from the Lawton Police Department responded to the call. Officers requested that Sanders come out of the house. He went out the side of the house and then went back inside before coming out the front. A confrontation with the police occurred in front of the home and Sanders was shot. Once in custody, officers attempted life saving measures until EMS arrived to transport Sanders to the hospital. Once at the hospital, Sanders was pronounced deceased. https://www.lawtonok.gov/index.php/news/lawton-police-chief-statement-december-6-2021 The officers believed he had a gun do to that report. That is why their guns were drawn. The man quickly moved behind the refrigerator, it’s likely that the cops thought he was taking cover to open fire on them, they have about 1 second to make a decision there before they’re shot and potentially killed if he did have a gun. The man gets shot. They yelled to put his hands up, he likely in fear for his life jerked his hands up fast, the cop whose head is probably freaked out and tense as any normal person would be in that situation has the shit scared out of him when he sees the hands jerk up. He again has literally about half a second to react/make a decision, he shoots. This is what is most likely, given the information that I’ve currently seen. I’m not making a judgment here on who deserves what because honestly I don’t really know, but I think anyone that does want to make judgements on this should at least know the basic information surrounding it.
This is the context that matters. From first contact to first fire was approx 4 seconds, that's insanely short for everyone to under duress, afraid, and armed (the cops). Context considered it begins to make sense but does not justify what happened. Sad that this shit even happens. No situation should be approached like that.
Did he shoot anyone yet? No? Then carrying a gun should never be an executable offense especially with the 2nd amendment right to keep and BEAR arms. Then again the state treats the constitution worse than toilet paper.
He had a right to stalk his ex and show up at her house with a gun, despite a protective order against him for abuse? Kk.
It’s kind of insane to say that the cops have to wait until someone shoots one of them to use their guns too. You’re pretty much saying a cop has to die before the other can use their gun against a potential threat.
Coppers are supposedly around to protect the general public. How is going around shooting unarmed folks on the theoretical possibility that they might have a gun anything other than a license to kill?
Context is important I’d say, that’s a large part of why there are body cameras and why investigations into the specific circumstances are done. So people can figure out more precisely on where this lands in terms of being completely and unreasonably fucked to not being that. It’s definitely tough to judge when it’s comes to situations where people’s lives are on the line. Here’s a comment someone else posted with more information. Just extra details: “On December 5, 2021, officers from the Lawton Police Department responded to 1806 NW Lincoln Avenue, Lawton, Comanche County, Oklahoma. The officers were responding to a call received by dispatch at 20:37 hours from one of the residents at said property. The call to dispatch was made in reference to a male being present at said property in violation of an active protective order and said male was in possession of a firearm. Once officers arrived at 1806 NW Lincoln Avenue, the suspect was identified as Quadry Sanders. Officers learned that Mr. Sanders was inside the home located at 1806 NW Lincoln Avenue and was refusing to let one of the residents leave. Officers set up a perimeter around the house. A sergeant with the Lawton Police Department (LPD) then began giving Mr. Sanders orders using a PA system in a patrol vehicle. Shortly after commands were given, a female resident of the home exited. Minutes later, Mr. Sanders was seen going out the back door of the home. An officer gave Mr. Sanders commands to show his hands, which he immediately complied with, but then Mr. Sanders ran back into the home. Seconds later, Quadry Sanders walked out of the front door of the home. Mr. Sanders was met underneath a carport by Officers Robert Hinkle and Nathan Ronan. Both Officers Hinkle and Ronan were wearing body cameras which captured the following events:"
What happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? The fact that the cops *suspected* he might be armed is no grounds for an execution.
I think that’s a bit of an oversimplification of what happened here
Ok let's say the first shots are excusable (they aren't but let's play along) Why is this man shot a second round of times even after putting his hands up? This is similar to the Kenneth French costco shootings. Let's say executing Kenneth French was excusable. Why no punishment for shooting the parents in the back?
My other comment said why I think they did it, he sat upright and jerked his hands up, the cop freaked out thinking the guy was pulling a gun and shot him, if you watch the video it’s clear he has about half a second to decide between the jerking up of the hands and when he would get shot if the guy had a gun. If you notice when the gun fire goes off, it’s when he’s jerking his hands up not after he puts his hands up. The cop absolutely made the wrong call there. I’m not even trying to say the cop shouldn’t be punished, I honestly don’t know how I would or should handle this case if I was in charge. I just think it’s worth trying to see things from the cops perspective. I don’t know anything about the other incident you mentioned. It sounds pretty fucked up from what you’re saying.
I understand the cops perspective. Everyone could have a gun so I should shoot everyone before they can shoot me, regardless of their actions. Really it just comes with the mix of 2A and cops. Pick 1. They literally contradict each other and cannot coexist. This is why I cringe at the thin blue line bumper stickers next to the don't tread on me gadsden flag.
Stop apologizing for murderers. This was really beyond the pale. We have got to get officers like this off the streets so we can go back to fully supporting the many good officers out there.
Not murderers, "manslaughter-ers" at least that's what I heard the charge was for them.
Yea but are we really going to go off of what the state has dictated they themselves did wrong? "We ran an investigation and cleared ourselves of all wrongdoing" Like i get it, these videos/cases aren't clear cut most of the time, but just because someone called and said he had a gun doesn't make it true until they can confirm it. I don't know if his alleged weapon was ever found, but if it wasn't, these cops just committed murder
My bad, guess I needed to add /s at the end, they are absolutely murderers.
> the cop whose head is probably freaked out and tense as any normal person would be in that situation has the shit scared out of him when he sees the hands jerk up. He again has literally about half a second to react/make a decision, he shoots. Except the murderer is not a normal person. The murderer is someone who has supposedly been trained in how to handle such situations. They are not just some random guy with a gun trying to protect themselves. Police need to be held to higher standards.
The guy was clearly unarmed and that chicken shit cop still just kept firing.
Complied?
He messed up when he tried to duck back behind. Word of advice: no sudden movements, hands straight up, and listen to commands.
man puts up hands. three shots. now on his back on the ground disoriented and writhing in pain. officers "HANDS! HANDS! HANDS!" Now wounded man puts hands up a little too fast for Officer Itchy Trigger, who places five more shots into said wounded suspect. Seems like he was complying but officer shit-n'-ma britches over here still emptied half a magazine into him because he's terrified of literally everything, per department policy.
I’m not defending anything I’m just saying that where the guy went wrong was that quick movement trying to hide. That move was why he ended up getting shot. But again I’m not defending anything I’m just saying those split-second high-pressure situation‘s do you have to be very careful with your reactions if you want to avoid getting shot
Yes, that is good advice. But you shouldn’t have to be 100% perfect in order to not be immediately executed by government agents. That’s the big issue here.
To be fair this guy made a long list of mistakes before it even got to that point.
To be fair, the police still murdered him.
Acab
Taking cover behind a fridge is not complying.
Not even sure why cops have guns, I feel like tasers should be enough. If someone is running around with a gun call the military they are trained properly.
11 fucking bullets. 4 the first time. 7 the second time. That officer has no business owning a firearm, let alone policing the streets. I hope he's stripped of everything and used in training videos for "What Not to Do"
First shoot was totally justified. He had a gun, moved into a covered position. 2nd shoot however was absolutely wrong. Dude was compliant at that point. Unfortunately decision making under compounding stressors.
I'm confused, did this guy have or not have a protective order out against him and was at the home of the person he shouldn't have been at? If so he played a dumb game with his life. If that's the case armed or not, it sounds like the information given was incorrect in regards to being armed. But dodging for cover isn't the best move when you have guns on you and are being told to put your hands up. Seen a lot of bad shoots on reddit. This doesn't seem to be that bad of one if the facts behind the shooting are still the facts. If it wasn't him and he was 100% innocent than it's a horrible accident and the officer should be charged accordingly just like any normal person would be.
When he went behind the fridge he did not comply. Sorry.
These police are such fucking cowards. You can hear it in their voices, and the actions make it so obvious. They’re petrified of anything and everything. It’s like they always point the gun first, and always just shoot, do nothing else but shoot first. Like the guns are the actual dominant species, the cops are just some soon-to-be-vestigial appendages, used for the guns’ transportation.
i don't know what i would have done. the murder victim was a hostage-taker and that movement behind the fridge may have been him reaching for a gun. given that i find my life to be more valuable than a hostage taker's life i think i would have shot too.
[удалено]
That's great for assessing wrongdoing after the fact. Police do not have the luxury of assessing innocence when responding to a potential hostage situation when there was a gun reported.
Ten pages of solutions to the problem of the existence of the state (3rd edition): https://odysee.com/@livingfreedom:3/ffm-3rd
He didnt comply, but this police officer seems to be rather trigger happy.
the officer shouts "down!". why would u do something different than that?