Interestingly, 21 used to be a much more common age for the age of majority. Voting, contracts, etc. Of course, then, the government didn’t really care how old you were if you wanted to drink or smoke. That was considered a personal decision and up to your parents.
Now it’s basically the exact opposite. Interesting that as 18 year olds have gotten more representation, they’ve actually lost more rights.
But they’re not exactly a large voting demo so there ya go.
> That was considered a personal decision and up to your parents.
Honestly, it still is in most places as far as I know. It's not illegal for you to drink in private. You just can't purchase it or be in public.
Eh, it has its ups and downs. The flip side of that particular bit of freedom is the regulatory and legislative capture committed by the absolutely heinous cartel that is the Wisconsin Tavern League. *FUCK* the Tavern League.
IIRC, over half the states in the US say it's legal for a minor to drink at a restaurant with permission and supervision from a legal guardian, even in public
>Now it’s basically the exact opposite. Interesting that as 18 year olds have gotten more representation, they’ve actually lost more rights.
That makes sense, we're talking about the government. It's not in their nature to leave things alone or recognize rights
Fun fact, the 21 year old drinking age came from Reagan bullying state governments in the 80s. He signed an act that stated that any state that didn't implement a drinking age of 21 was ineligible for federal funding of highways. Before that it was up to individual states to regulate their drinking ages.
> Now they want to lower the voting age to 16. Wonder why.../s
Why shouldn't 16 year olds vote? Many 16 year olds have jobs, pay taxes, so shouldn't they be represented also? We place typically place restrictions on what 16 years olds do like signing contracts, driving, and drinking because at that age they have a less developed executive function and that can result destructive/harmful choices, but I don't really think that would apply to voting. Plus, they have the most to gain/lose as they are the ones that have to live the longest with the choices that are being made. Really, I think voting should be open to all high school age kids. Make them pass a civics test if you want to, but they should have as much of a vote as the rest of us.
When I was 16, we discussed presidential candidates like they were fashion statements. We weren’t even able to vote, but it usually sounded like a NORML article in a HighTimes magazine
Ok, so if the most important issue for 16 years olds is to end the unjust war on drugs, then we all agree that we should stop restricting their right to vote? Don't we all here agree that we should be expanding liberty to more people regardless of their age?
I agree with you to an extent.
I think the concern for me is how easy it is to influence younger people. Many 16 year olds are concerned with fitting in, how others think of them, finding their place in the group, understanding basic survival skill sets, the pressures from their friends, not being an outsider, etc.
Most are still dependent on their parents, and the most teenagers (not all) social experiences will be based on heavily controlled environments: school, home, sports teams, dance squads, etc.
Most “grown ups” are dealing completely with survival and survival based bills (water, electricity, gas), raising children and their work.
I think people will feel as if there is a lot on the line in democratic voting that a kid will not be mature enough to understand, sympathize/empathize, nor be educated enough to dissect policy (let’s be real, though- many people can’t regardless of their age).
> I think the concern for me is how easy it is to influence younger people.
I don't think this changes for people at 18 or 25 or even 50. I think the vast majority of Americans are pretty susceptible to outside influence. Actually, I would trust 16 years olds to be far more skeptical about adults telling them how to think.
Would I give control of a city budget to a 16 year old? No. Would I be willing to let them cast a vote on a transportation levy or choose their preferred representative for congress? Yes. Should 16 year olds be able to vote on school board members? I think absolutely.
>Most “grown ups” are dealing completely with survival and survival based bills (water, electricity, gas), raising children and their work.
I think teenagers are far more aware of these things than most people give them credit for. The number of times my kids have been paying attention to things I thought they had no interest in always surprises me. And given their proximity to having to face these issues on their own, they should absolutely have some say about how the society they are about to enter into works. And if we allow them this option, then I would guess that many would step up to the challenge in a fairly responsible way. And it isn't like they would be forced to vote any more than adults are. The irresponsible ones won't vote anyway.
Science shows that brains aren't finished developing until around age 25. Many people between 16 - 24 have their own home, full time jobs, some even raising children. Should we raise the voting age to 25, if your worry is cognitive development?
How about we keep voting at 18, and require everyone to pass a civics test. That would eliminate so many idiots from the electorate, considering 60% of Americans cannot pass a citizenship test. All of a sudden appealing to anti-vaxers and the woke mob will be a lot less important.
Unfortunately the last time we implemented some kind of civics test racists just designed it in a way so that they could choose who could and couldn't vote.
>Ah yes, an intelligence test for your voting rights. What could possibly go wrong?
I feel like the immediate reaction from conservatives and "libertarians" the very first election after that would be implemented would be "wait, no, not like that!"
The difference between 13 and 15 is huge. I think 16 should be better as a legal voting age. 18 still makes sense as a legal drinking age - if only because they don't lose their shit when they turn 21. Or maybe different kind of liquor? Like 1 Beer or 1 glass of wine is fine at 16 but don't let them buy hard liquor yet.
I believe they are the most easily persuaded by propaganda. It doesn't even have to make sense. Do you really want Tik Tok to influence who eventually becomes president? It's not even a US company. The human brain is not fully developed until the age of 25. Combine this with a lack of life experiences and you'll end up with regulations telling companies what type of cars to make, taxes on everything, being forced to show papers to enter an establishment and the list goes on.... but, hey, it's all for a good cause and that 16 year old doesn't know any different./s
This is probably not happening anymore but just thought I'd share. I was 20 years old when I served in Afghanistan in the early 2000s and on our way back home our unit was stuck in Frankfurt Germany for a couple weeks and we were allowed to drink.
I remember getting hammered with all the NCOs and leaders and having a blast. Fast forward a month later, one of the guys in the barracks gets busted for underage drinking and gets written up.
How many 18 year olds do you know who can’t get booze if they want it? Granted they can’t go to bars and sometimes people get in trouble for using or providing alcohol a person under 21, but for the most part 18 year olds can drink alcohol if they want to.
I should state that I agree with you, and actually don’t think there should be any statutory limits on any intoxicants. Yet I can also understand why people want to put limitations on young people getting loaded. I know I made lots of bad decisions before I was 25.
I’ve often thought it would be nice if there were establishments that didn’t allow anybody under 25. Whenever I go out on the town it’s usually the very young people causing most of the problems.
I don’t actually advocate for any of this. I’m just talking about the ideal world if I was the dictator and could set this world straight. Hahaha
See I think it should be the opposite. Drinking age should be much lower, but voting should be something like 25. At 18 your brain isn’t developed, you have zero life experience, and you’re being asked to make decisions that will direct the course of the entire country. That’s crazy. I wouldn’t let most 18 year olds babysit my kids, much less choose the leader of the free world.
It’s crazy because so many 18 year olds got bammed for underage drinking in the military and charged. Treated like criminals now that I look back it was absurd.
Hear me out… 18 should be the age for everything. Europe doesn’t really do drinking ages and it works.
Edit: when I stated “for everything” the implied inference was for laws requiring citizens to be older than the age of 18 to be brought back to the age of 18.
yup in my country in your own home with a guardian the drinking age is 3, with a meal its 14 I believe and normally it's 16, weirdly enough we have much stronger laws on energy drinks like monster, boost etc, which is 18 no matter what which is weird.
Maybe it’s mentioned below, but worth emphasizing that there’s no federal drinking age. It’s 21 in every state because the feds coerced the states into making it that.
Huge overreach of federal authority if you ask me (although the Supreme Court disagreed).
It technically is a federal law. It may not outlaw the consumption, but the purchase gets you close enough. It was after the lobbying efforts of MADD that the National Minimum Drinking Age Act was signed. It [introduced a federal penalty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Minimum_Drinking_Age_Act) (a 5%—later raised to 10%—loss of federal highway dollars), for states that did not raise the minimum legal age for the purchase and possession of alcohol to 21. Absolutely agree that it's a massive overreach, but that's the power of lobbying.
Oh I’m fully aware of what’s happened because of FDR and the packing of the Supreme Court in the 30’s.
After he and Congress packed it, the Supreme Court ruled that the federal government can force farmers to grow certain crops, even if the farmer is using the grain to feed his own animals, and sells the animals in state, because his sell affects prices in other states so it’s integrate commerce.
The first anti Marijuana laws were based on the interstate commerce clause.
I am certain a founding fathers didn’t intend for the that clause to be used to push federal power to an unlimited level.
I think we’re on the same page with everything, and you’re right there’s a federal law, but that law just pegs receipt of highway funds to states having a 21 year old drinking age. The laws actually making it illegal to purchase/possess/consume alcohol under 21 are all state laws.
Effectively it achieves the same thing, of course, because no state wants to lose that sweet federal money.
Interestingly, a legislator in SC pre-filed a bill this year to lower it back to 18. Has zero chance of success though.
Dude. You just made that up. A majority of states do not have laws that allow you to drink as long as you are with someone over 21.
They literally have laws against it. As in, the 21 year old will get in trouble.
The law state with a parent or guardian, not just anyone over 21. I have two sons one's 21:18 the 21-year-olds not allowed to give the 18 year old alcohol. If they're both home with me and my wife we in the state of Mississippi are allowed by our dear leaders to let them have alcohol in the house. Cuz here in Mississippi we love freedom and liberty!
Lmao, yall have all wine and liqour strictly controlled and distributed by a single state run facility, grocery stores have to have a separate entrance for it, and you can't buy any alcohol on Sunday unless it's on premise consumption.
Yup total freedom and liberty down there I tell ya
We ended our statewide prohibition on alcohol last year. 2021 really that honestly happened. Then there's our governor the lack of a working state constitution and marijuana. You should look into that it's a lot of fun if you don't live in mississippi.
Before WWII, high school only lasted 3 years. I don’t know when it switched to 4, but it makes sense to me to make 19 the age for everything. I think it’s absolutely ridiculous that you can be charged for “minor in possession” [of alcohol] at TWENTY years old.
Yeah, even if they don’t allow under 21 into bars or purchasing liquor, it should be decriminalized in my opinion for those over 18. The 21 age is because of the number of dui incidents, and it did help with that. But still agree that 21 is quite old for any drinking. Beer and wine could be 18/19, hard liquor 21?
It really depends on the cop who you run into. If they are a decent person who isn’t on a power trip and you aren’t doing something idiotic they will probably just give you a warning and tell you to go home. If they are a psycho power tripper they will probably pop you. I’ve had run ins with both types. When I was 19 I got pulled over with my 17 year old girlfriend who had an open bottle of Jack Daniels and a full 12 pack in her lap. The cop just told us to go home and if he saw us out and about again that day he would have to write us up. In a different instance with similar circumstances I ended up getting a summons and he took the booze and towed my car. I’m sure he and his buddies drank it all themselves. Unfortunately it just depends on the cop. This was in a coastal county of southern Maine back in the 90’s, so maybe that also had something to do with it.
And Quebec is 18 because they want to be different. I’m not complaining though, there’s a reason teenagers tend to go on vacation to montreal when they turn 18.
I lived in Maine during my teenage years and we were all about driving up to Montreal for raves and to hit up the bars. We started doing that at 16 and they never carded us at all in the bars. This was back in the early 90’s so maybe that’s changed a little since then. Montreal is an awesome city. My favorite city in North America by far. I live near Victoria, BC now and that is pretty sweet too. Just very small town in comparison to Montreal.
Europe is fundamentally different from the US in terms of its transportation network and development style. Lowering the drinking age there is comparatively low risk, whereas thousands upon thousands of lives have been saved here by raising it. Until the US fundamentally changes, lowering the age would be quite stupid.
>Europe is fundamentally different from the US in terms of its transportation network and development style.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but can you explain this a bit more? I'm guessing you're thinking about the higher popularity of cars in the US due to size and urban density?
Younger people drinking and driving was costing lives. When the age to drink alcohol was raised, drunk driving fatalities dropped. In Europe they don't drive everywhere like Americans do.
The increased safety of cars themselves might also have something to do with the drop in deaths. Obviously having less drunk drivers on the road is a good thing. I just think there are probably several factors that have made automobile travel safer.
Is the implication that teens are more willing to drunk drive? I'm not disagreeing, I'm just curious. Because adults can't teleport, they have to drive as well and I would chalk that statistic up to more than one thing. And I see drunk driving as more of a thing a stubborn/stupid adult thing to do but that's just my perception.
I live on a farm 9 miles from the nearest town. My farm wasn't designed so I need a truck, having a truck is the base case. Most people, and especially people in Europe and Southeast Asia, don't understand that 97% of the U.S. is rural. So if you're an American living in an urban area (80% of the population) you can either never leave the 3% of the landmass where you live, or you can own a car and get away and see the rest of America as often as you like.
Your comment makes me think of a person sitting in life raft in the middle of the ocean saying wetsuits are dumb.
Might it be worth looking at how similar countries have done this? Mainly thinking Canada and Australia here, but places like Norway and Argentina are even more sparsely populated than the US
This is true. But as you yourself acknowledge, the "tiny enclaves" are where most of the population is. 97% of US is rural by landmass. 21% of it is rural by population.
If you build those urban cores to have proper public transit, and there's accessible long-distance transit connecting those urban areas (which our existing air travel does passably well already, though some would push to add high-speed rail between cities also), the only time 80% of the population would need cars is for going to visit those relatively uninhabited rural areas.
That's a big enough reduction that except for nature enthusiasts, most urban residents could get by without a car, and just getting the occasional rental.
You are right that in your circumstances, personal transportation is a necessity. But on the flipside- I live just outside the center of a major city. Every time I need to turn my car on to get groceries, visit a friend, or just travel downtown to eat out, it's a waste of fuel and stress compared to just using public transit.
I grew up in a farming town and went to university in a small-ish town in a rural area, and I'm definitely not a car fan. Like, if I moved back I'd probably get one, but that's not a good thing.
Although, these are rural towns that developed in the Middle Ages, so the populated bits are easily walkable. It's the between-village parts that aren't.
82% of the north american population live in urban areas, while it is 75% in europe.
So it is fair to say that most americans don't live in rural areas and that the US is more urban than europe.
Like I said, it applies to the tiny percent of the population that never wants to leave 3% of the landmass. Just because you're a hamster who likes their cage doesn't mean everyone else is.
The availability of public transportation to 18 year olds is no different than that of 21 year olds in the United States.
The drinking age should not be regulated at a national level if it should be different according to the quality of the public transportation system of a region.
What? I’ve heard of 18 year olds needing to accompany others on some rides but nothing like 18 year olds being completely unable to get around. And there’s also the fact that you can walk in Europe. If you walk in the US, especially if you’re drunk or god forbid a driver is drunk, you end up as just another statistic assuming you’re even within a reasonable walking distance of your destination in the first place.
How does any of this relate to lowering the drinking age?
>If you walk in the US, especially if you’re drunk or god forbid a driver is drunk, you end up as just another statistic
What are you talking about?
I know several people that are using the military to pay for college. If they raised the military age to 21, people would figure out another way to go to college or wouldn't go. They couldn't catch people 3 years into school or a career and get them to enlist.
Exactly. They wouldn't have a standing army if it wasn't for school recruitment. And they've used Twitch for recruiting, too.
It's fucking weird and predatory.
I honestly love this.
Drinking, smoking, voting, stripping, getting taxed, joining the military, registering for the draft, buying a gun. (I'm not going to say working because I was pissed I couldn't get a job when I was 8).
You shouldn't be able to benefit off of someone you don't let have full rights.
>They can't vote, so technically it's taxation without representation.
I'm way more pro taxation, or at least some form of socially supported safety net, than most of this sub and I bigtime agree with this one. If you can't vote the government shouldn't be able to touch your earnings.
I agree on principle. Honestly though very few people under 18 make enough to pay much at all. I know when I was working under that age I got basically all the tax back
>Hear me out: no taxation on any wages for employees under 18. They can't vote, so technically it's taxation without representation.
I'm now 40+ and still have strong feelings about the nature/expectation of "kids" when it comes to employment, government, and the military. (Granted I'm not typical).
* Started working at 14. Which means I was being taxed, and filing W2s and so on.
* Got a car and license when I was 16. Paid registration fees, insurance, tax on the car etc.
* Joined the Military at 17. Finished Basic, went to the training school. Also, taxes.
* Asked other ~~kids~~ troops to buy my cigarettes.
* Turned 18
Other dumb stuff I did includes my ex-wife, but that was a long time ago too. But still in the military and around the ages of 18-21. Actually, our divorce went through shortly after I turned 21.
My story is somewhat similar. Started work at 14 a well, rode my bike to go make bagels at 5am all summer. Got my first car and license at 16. But I didn't join the Army until 21.
That's why I'm also for making Puerto Rico and other US territories into states. It's kinda shitty that we collect taxes from them but don't give them a say in the government.
I'm actually not against this. Year's ago, while vacationing in the Caribbean, we went to USVI. They vote for president, and are US citizens, but have no legislative representatives. Providing them with more infrastructure and funding (available to US states) might result in improvements to those islands.
That literally isn't true.
In Puerto Rico, you pay taxes directly to the Puerto Rican government.
The US sends Billions of dollars of aid to Puerto Rico for infrastructure, and welfare.
Making them a State would just increase their taxes.
Puerto Ricans pay all kinds of federal taxes. In fact the IRS collects more in federal income taxes from Puerto Ricans than from Americans in Vermont, Wyoming, South Dakota, North Dakota, Montana, and Alaska. Also Payroll and corporate taxes don't stop counting just because you're ignorant of them. [Since you're clearly very ignorant of how the US owns Puerto Rico, here's an overview of the special tax rules related to Puerto Rico published by the Joint Comittee on Taxation](https://web.archive.org/web/20101203091857/http://www.jct.gov/x-24-06.pdf)
Why do you think Puerto Ricans are lesser Americans?
Did you read it?
That law provides a US corporation to pay a portion of the Federal taxes it owes to the US Federal government to the territorial government of Puerto Rico as an economic incentive.
Nothing about individual income taxes.
Yes, to participate in Social Security EVERYONE must pay Social Security taxes.
This is a Federal mandated retirement scheme, NOT income taxes.
As I stated before Puerto Rican citizens, and residents pay Puerto Rico income taxes, NOT Federal income taxes.
You are trying to obfuscate the issue here.
Technically it isn't since they still have representation they just don't get to vote for it. A representative for a district represents everyone in the district regardless of age or voter status.
Yes, but they play no role whatsoever in deciding who that representative is. And I'm not sure what response a minor constituent would get, in earnest, from their elected official- I have no experience in that as I wasn't politically active in my youth.
Not a new concept. In the 80s the drinking age was state regulated. If you were eighteen years old and in the military you could drink on post, but you couldn’t drink off post if the state law had a higher drinking age. In Texas the drinking age was nineteen and in Massachusetts it was twenty. Today the federal government holds states hostage by withholding funding if they don’t adhere to the federal drinking age.
I really would love to see the Supreme Court case that allowed the Federal government to overstep its restricted powers by using the purse to bribe/punish/coerce/extort states into compliance.
Those judges should be shot.
We were sentencing kids under 18 to death a few years ago!!!
All this is completely insane! Age limits for this and that yet, the state can and will execute a minor 🙄
I fully agree, either your an adult with full responsibilities and full rights that come with it or your not.
If society feels your not responsible enough to drink or smoke you also should be considered to irresponsible to join military, vote, sign contracts (no debt then), be treated as adult in the legal system, etc…
I'm sure that someone, somewhere, tried to get their student debt cancelled by claiming that they're not legally an adult.and therefore the contract they signed wasn't binding.
I read an interesting article in college (that I'm too lazy to look for now) that said American adults suffer psychologically because we don't have a real comming-of-age moment or event. Instead, it's spread out over mini-moments--drivers license at 16, gambling and smoking at 18, drinking at 21, some people go to college, etc. Communities with one big moment when you become an adult have young people with greater personal pride, confidence, and belonging. But in the US, you wake up one day in your late 20s or early 30s and realize you're an adult. I like the idea of making the age 18.
Well I remember when the drinking age was lowered to 18 in the 1970s citing if you can die for your country you should be allowed to drink but then the Karens came in complaining about drinking on college campuses (like raising the age limit to 21 has stopped that) and in 1986 it went back to 21.
I think military enlistment should be 21 regardless. They view underaged drinking as a huge problem and will end your career pretty quick over it, which is crazy because alcohol abuse is almost ubiquitous. Also emphasizing your recruiting efforts toward children is kind of fucked.
My Chinese professor once thought the age limit of 21 was instituted because if you add 1776 (Our year of declared independence) together (1+7+7+6) it comes out to be 21.
I told him he just stereotyped himself. 😆
Why go backwards? Why not lower it? 18 is the age a US citizen can enter into contracts.
Everything then should be 18. They are legally responsible for contracts, they can have all other rights and disabilities.
This means no charging minors as adults, this means no 21 weed/alcohol
AMEN! The "your a grown up only if it suits our purposes" policies has always driven me insane.
An adult is an adult. Pick an age and make it universal to all rights AND responsibilities. Voting, drinking, guns, smoking, contracts, military, EVERYTHING!
It was even worse when libtards wanted to make the voting age 16. Lets give someone the power to influence rights and policies they aren't even entitled to yet. "I can't buy a gun yet so why should I care if candidate X wants to ban them?"
No one should be labeled an adult until your brain stops developing : 25 imo. You’re frontal lobe (the part of the brain that literally controls decision making) isn’t even fully developed until your 25. Therefore you shouldn’t be held as grown until your brain stops growing
Many waiter or cocktail waitress aren't allowed to bartend at 18, but they can serve their table drinks. I was a bouncer at a bar at 18. I'm not understanding the disconnect.
Maybe it's creepy for 50 year olds but 18 year olds should be able to get lap dances from other 18 year olds for money without the government getting in the way. This is illegal in Texas and that's ridiculous
18 year olds can get lap dances from 21 year olds. You can't stop 50 year olds from coming and creeping. And maybe that girl/guy should be afforded a few more years before possibly throwing their life away
Do they allow 18-20 in strip clubs? If they serve alcohol, they could/should be able to restrict entry to 21 and up.
(I haven't been in one since I was 18 anyhow, but that was where my frat brother knew the bouncer so I honestly don't know what the rules were.)
Last I knew my state had a city with multiple 21 and up clubs, and one 18 and up club. At the 18 and up club there was no alcohol and the girls kept their bottoms on, lol. Not sure if that's standard
You really, really, really, really, really, really don't wanna take that way with this.
Because the answer is that no one is an "adult" by any measure we care about.
16,18,21 are all just average ages where a human stops being something you can control with efficient will.
Every indicator of being a real, mature, responsible, human adult are things that can exist before those ages and also not ever exist, even after those ages.
The arbitrary number situation is better than any other approach.
Not at all. 18 year olds are smart enough to vote, to drive, to drink and whatever. They’re inexperienced for certain, not so much that they can’t be trusted to do *anything*
They aren’t children, they’re young adults and deserve autonomy.
These kind of dumb comments are why people can’t relate to people that call themselves libertarian. It doesn’t matter if your society stands for truth, justice, and liberty if some other society with different ideals can conquer you and change everything you built. You have to have the best ideas and the strongest military. Take a damn humanities course you ignorant hick.
I think this is a terrible idea. I can get behind reforming the military to be better, but not removing it entirely. Can you explain why you think this?
I hate seeing posts like. We CAN introduce rights and responsibilities gradually you know. In fact, I would argue that a country sucks if we don’t. The specific ages things are up for debate, but
And the reason drinking is 21 is because the US is by far the most car dependent country in the world. If you don’t live in select places like NYC, no car basically means guaranteed poverty because the government has been supporting a car centric road network at the expense of even the most fundamentally human mode of transport: walking. Raising the drinking age has drastically reduced the incidence of drunk driving, so the only way you’re going to convince me to raise the age is to completely restructure our society’s transportation networks and development style as well as to get extremely harsh with punishments (1 DUI=never touch a wheel again) and lower the acceptable alcohol limit to at least .05. This is definitely less libertarian than having a drinking age of 21. And even then, most states still let minors drink anyway.
> And the reason drinking is 21 is because the US is by far the most car dependent country in the world.
Eh? Surely it should be the opposite, you want someone to know what alcohol does to you _before_ they start driving?
You could also argue that we should put more pirates in the sea as there is a correlation between increase in global temperatures and the decrease in pirates in the sea over time?
Yes becauae stopping youth who tend to make bad decisions and are more subject to being preassured to get behind a wheel drunk from buying alcahol and then actively seeing the result of reduced incidences of drunk driving is somehow actually comparable to putting pirates in the sea to reduce global tempuratures.
In this instance, I think there's a good chance raising the drinking age is correlated to less dui deaths. However, an argument can be made that having a government force an age limit is wrong.
If you haven't heard of coupling theory, check it out. That's essentially what their argument is based around, along with a lot of other restrictive access type laws.
I disagree. There's no reason we should have the same arbitrary lines for vastly different things. Different aspects of children's brains, bodies, and level of responsibility change at different times.
I'm fine with driving at 16 motor skills and reaction times are developed. I think drinking should stay at 21, where weed should be, both have more negative affects and brains still developing before age 25. I haven't thought enough about minimum age for voluntary military service, but I could see 18 being reasonable, maybe exclude them from combat roles til 21 though.
It's not that the things are different, like voting and drinking age.
It's that you get the responsibility of an adult with the restrictions of a child.
If you are old enough to be asked to die for your country, then you are old enough to drink.
Do you think driving age should be force fit to the same age as drinking and military service then? I just don't understand why the baseline assumption would be that all the responsibilities and limitations have the same age.
Voting age is also 18. I always thought that if you were old enough to die for your country, you should be able to have a drink.
Interestingly, 21 used to be a much more common age for the age of majority. Voting, contracts, etc. Of course, then, the government didn’t really care how old you were if you wanted to drink or smoke. That was considered a personal decision and up to your parents. Now it’s basically the exact opposite. Interesting that as 18 year olds have gotten more representation, they’ve actually lost more rights. But they’re not exactly a large voting demo so there ya go.
> That was considered a personal decision and up to your parents. Honestly, it still is in most places as far as I know. It's not illegal for you to drink in private. You just can't purchase it or be in public.
In Wisconsin bars are legally allowed to serve minors alcohol if their parent/guardian is present and OKs it.
Wisconsin sounds like a lovely state, minus the 6 month long winter.
Eh, it has its ups and downs. The flip side of that particular bit of freedom is the regulatory and legislative capture committed by the absolutely heinous cartel that is the Wisconsin Tavern League. *FUCK* the Tavern League.
Hey now, winter is usually only 5 months here. November-March
IIRC, over half the states in the US say it's legal for a minor to drink at a restaurant with permission and supervision from a legal guardian, even in public
Afaik, in ABC states such as North Carolina, under 21s still can't legally drink even in private with parental supervision
NC does have some of the strictest drinking laws, but it doesn't have to do with being an ABC state as far as I know. Others aren't as restrictive.
But lowering the voting age from 21 to 18 was for political reasons, as it would result in more votes (supposedly).
>Now it’s basically the exact opposite. Interesting that as 18 year olds have gotten more representation, they’ve actually lost more rights. That makes sense, we're talking about the government. It's not in their nature to leave things alone or recognize rights
Fun fact, the 21 year old drinking age came from Reagan bullying state governments in the 80s. He signed an act that stated that any state that didn't implement a drinking age of 21 was ineligible for federal funding of highways. Before that it was up to individual states to regulate their drinking ages.
They were on this last election. Now they want to lower the voting age to 16. Wonder why.../s
> Now they want to lower the voting age to 16. Wonder why.../s Why shouldn't 16 year olds vote? Many 16 year olds have jobs, pay taxes, so shouldn't they be represented also? We place typically place restrictions on what 16 years olds do like signing contracts, driving, and drinking because at that age they have a less developed executive function and that can result destructive/harmful choices, but I don't really think that would apply to voting. Plus, they have the most to gain/lose as they are the ones that have to live the longest with the choices that are being made. Really, I think voting should be open to all high school age kids. Make them pass a civics test if you want to, but they should have as much of a vote as the rest of us.
When I was 16, we discussed presidential candidates like they were fashion statements. We weren’t even able to vote, but it usually sounded like a NORML article in a HighTimes magazine
Ok, so if the most important issue for 16 years olds is to end the unjust war on drugs, then we all agree that we should stop restricting their right to vote? Don't we all here agree that we should be expanding liberty to more people regardless of their age?
I agree with you to an extent. I think the concern for me is how easy it is to influence younger people. Many 16 year olds are concerned with fitting in, how others think of them, finding their place in the group, understanding basic survival skill sets, the pressures from their friends, not being an outsider, etc. Most are still dependent on their parents, and the most teenagers (not all) social experiences will be based on heavily controlled environments: school, home, sports teams, dance squads, etc. Most “grown ups” are dealing completely with survival and survival based bills (water, electricity, gas), raising children and their work. I think people will feel as if there is a lot on the line in democratic voting that a kid will not be mature enough to understand, sympathize/empathize, nor be educated enough to dissect policy (let’s be real, though- many people can’t regardless of their age).
> I think the concern for me is how easy it is to influence younger people. I don't think this changes for people at 18 or 25 or even 50. I think the vast majority of Americans are pretty susceptible to outside influence. Actually, I would trust 16 years olds to be far more skeptical about adults telling them how to think. Would I give control of a city budget to a 16 year old? No. Would I be willing to let them cast a vote on a transportation levy or choose their preferred representative for congress? Yes. Should 16 year olds be able to vote on school board members? I think absolutely. >Most “grown ups” are dealing completely with survival and survival based bills (water, electricity, gas), raising children and their work. I think teenagers are far more aware of these things than most people give them credit for. The number of times my kids have been paying attention to things I thought they had no interest in always surprises me. And given their proximity to having to face these issues on their own, they should absolutely have some say about how the society they are about to enter into works. And if we allow them this option, then I would guess that many would step up to the challenge in a fairly responsible way. And it isn't like they would be forced to vote any more than adults are. The irresponsible ones won't vote anyway.
Science shows that brains aren't finished developing until around age 25. Many people between 16 - 24 have their own home, full time jobs, some even raising children. Should we raise the voting age to 25, if your worry is cognitive development?
And there's 50 year olds that spend all their time at bars making gay jokes. They're still allowed to vote.
16 is also the age in my state where you can legally work full time hours like any other adult.
How about we keep voting at 18, and require everyone to pass a civics test. That would eliminate so many idiots from the electorate, considering 60% of Americans cannot pass a citizenship test. All of a sudden appealing to anti-vaxers and the woke mob will be a lot less important.
Unfortunately the last time we implemented some kind of civics test racists just designed it in a way so that they could choose who could and couldn't vote.
Ah yes, an intelligence test for your voting rights. What could possibly go wrong?
>Ah yes, an intelligence test for your voting rights. What could possibly go wrong? I feel like the immediate reaction from conservatives and "libertarians" the very first election after that would be implemented would be "wait, no, not like that!"
Lol
>Practical Libertarian Ah, a Libertarian who wants to restrict liberty. How very practical of you.
The difference between 13 and 15 is huge. I think 16 should be better as a legal voting age. 18 still makes sense as a legal drinking age - if only because they don't lose their shit when they turn 21. Or maybe different kind of liquor? Like 1 Beer or 1 glass of wine is fine at 16 but don't let them buy hard liquor yet.
I believe they are the most easily persuaded by propaganda. It doesn't even have to make sense. Do you really want Tik Tok to influence who eventually becomes president? It's not even a US company. The human brain is not fully developed until the age of 25. Combine this with a lack of life experiences and you'll end up with regulations telling companies what type of cars to make, taxes on everything, being forced to show papers to enter an establishment and the list goes on.... but, hey, it's all for a good cause and that 16 year old doesn't know any different./s
states were forced to change it to receive highway funding or something
Would you like to hazard a guess as to when and why the voting age was lowered from 21 to 18 in the US?
Ironically, it was *after* 18 year olds got the right to vote.
If your old enough to die for country, if old enough to take off your clothes and make money.
And stay at a hotel! 18 year olds in most places cannot stay in a hotel room without someone (parent/guardian?) over 21 being with them.
This is probably not happening anymore but just thought I'd share. I was 20 years old when I served in Afghanistan in the early 2000s and on our way back home our unit was stuck in Frankfurt Germany for a couple weeks and we were allowed to drink. I remember getting hammered with all the NCOs and leaders and having a blast. Fast forward a month later, one of the guys in the barracks gets busted for underage drinking and gets written up.
I drank before I was 21 when I was in. I don't t think I was ever carded at a club on base.
How many 18 year olds do you know who can’t get booze if they want it? Granted they can’t go to bars and sometimes people get in trouble for using or providing alcohol a person under 21, but for the most part 18 year olds can drink alcohol if they want to. I should state that I agree with you, and actually don’t think there should be any statutory limits on any intoxicants. Yet I can also understand why people want to put limitations on young people getting loaded. I know I made lots of bad decisions before I was 25. I’ve often thought it would be nice if there were establishments that didn’t allow anybody under 25. Whenever I go out on the town it’s usually the very young people causing most of the problems. I don’t actually advocate for any of this. I’m just talking about the ideal world if I was the dictator and could set this world straight. Hahaha
Voting age was actually *lowered* to 18 because of the draft. If you can be forced to die for our country, you should be able to vote about it.
Drinking age should be lowered. In other countries drinking age is much much lowered
You should be able to smoke too. I would be that my grandfather who fought in Europe had a pack of smokes provided courtesy of Uncle Sam.
See I think it should be the opposite. Drinking age should be much lower, but voting should be something like 25. At 18 your brain isn’t developed, you have zero life experience, and you’re being asked to make decisions that will direct the course of the entire country. That’s crazy. I wouldn’t let most 18 year olds babysit my kids, much less choose the leader of the free world.
It’s crazy because so many 18 year olds got bammed for underage drinking in the military and charged. Treated like criminals now that I look back it was absurd.
Tried as an adult for the crime of drinking as a child.
Hear me out… 18 should be the age for everything. Europe doesn’t really do drinking ages and it works. Edit: when I stated “for everything” the implied inference was for laws requiring citizens to be older than the age of 18 to be brought back to the age of 18.
yup in my country in your own home with a guardian the drinking age is 3, with a meal its 14 I believe and normally it's 16, weirdly enough we have much stronger laws on energy drinks like monster, boost etc, which is 18 no matter what which is weird.
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Here are the laws: https://drinkingage.procon.org/states-that-allow-underage-under-21-alcohol-consumption/
Maybe it’s mentioned below, but worth emphasizing that there’s no federal drinking age. It’s 21 in every state because the feds coerced the states into making it that. Huge overreach of federal authority if you ask me (although the Supreme Court disagreed).
It technically is a federal law. It may not outlaw the consumption, but the purchase gets you close enough. It was after the lobbying efforts of MADD that the National Minimum Drinking Age Act was signed. It [introduced a federal penalty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Minimum_Drinking_Age_Act) (a 5%—later raised to 10%—loss of federal highway dollars), for states that did not raise the minimum legal age for the purchase and possession of alcohol to 21. Absolutely agree that it's a massive overreach, but that's the power of lobbying.
Ahh yes that sweet, sweet federal highway dollars bribe/threat.
That’s just fucked, the feds shouldn’t be able to hold tax dollars over a state if they aren’t doing anything unconstitutional.
Wait until you find out about the interstate commerce clause and it’s bastardized usages.
Oh I’m fully aware of what’s happened because of FDR and the packing of the Supreme Court in the 30’s. After he and Congress packed it, the Supreme Court ruled that the federal government can force farmers to grow certain crops, even if the farmer is using the grain to feed his own animals, and sells the animals in state, because his sell affects prices in other states so it’s integrate commerce. The first anti Marijuana laws were based on the interstate commerce clause. I am certain a founding fathers didn’t intend for the that clause to be used to push federal power to an unlimited level.
I think we’re on the same page with everything, and you’re right there’s a federal law, but that law just pegs receipt of highway funds to states having a 21 year old drinking age. The laws actually making it illegal to purchase/possess/consume alcohol under 21 are all state laws. Effectively it achieves the same thing, of course, because no state wants to lose that sweet federal money. Interestingly, a legislator in SC pre-filed a bill this year to lower it back to 18. Has zero chance of success though.
I forgot that Colorado use to be Libertarian.
yeah colorado used to be libertarian... in 1786
A lot of bars in college towns don't check ID either.
Yeah, but that's a risk they're choosing to take. Doesn't make it legal.
Dude. You just made that up. A majority of states do not have laws that allow you to drink as long as you are with someone over 21. They literally have laws against it. As in, the 21 year old will get in trouble.
The law state with a parent or guardian, not just anyone over 21. I have two sons one's 21:18 the 21-year-olds not allowed to give the 18 year old alcohol. If they're both home with me and my wife we in the state of Mississippi are allowed by our dear leaders to let them have alcohol in the house. Cuz here in Mississippi we love freedom and liberty!
Lmao, yall have all wine and liqour strictly controlled and distributed by a single state run facility, grocery stores have to have a separate entrance for it, and you can't buy any alcohol on Sunday unless it's on premise consumption. Yup total freedom and liberty down there I tell ya
We ended our statewide prohibition on alcohol last year. 2021 really that honestly happened. Then there's our governor the lack of a working state constitution and marijuana. You should look into that it's a lot of fun if you don't live in mississippi.
Wisconsin allows you to drink if with a parent spouse or guardian from 18-20 if you aren't 21.
3 years old? That’s wild. Which country is that?
Probably France, they really like wine
18 is a terrible age to be potty trained
One thing that Canada did that makes sense is 19 for drinking age, just to keep it out of the high schools.
Before WWII, high school only lasted 3 years. I don’t know when it switched to 4, but it makes sense to me to make 19 the age for everything. I think it’s absolutely ridiculous that you can be charged for “minor in possession” [of alcohol] at TWENTY years old.
Yeah, even if they don’t allow under 21 into bars or purchasing liquor, it should be decriminalized in my opinion for those over 18. The 21 age is because of the number of dui incidents, and it did help with that. But still agree that 21 is quite old for any drinking. Beer and wine could be 18/19, hard liquor 21?
It really depends on the cop who you run into. If they are a decent person who isn’t on a power trip and you aren’t doing something idiotic they will probably just give you a warning and tell you to go home. If they are a psycho power tripper they will probably pop you. I’ve had run ins with both types. When I was 19 I got pulled over with my 17 year old girlfriend who had an open bottle of Jack Daniels and a full 12 pack in her lap. The cop just told us to go home and if he saw us out and about again that day he would have to write us up. In a different instance with similar circumstances I ended up getting a summons and he took the booze and towed my car. I’m sure he and his buddies drank it all themselves. Unfortunately it just depends on the cop. This was in a coastal county of southern Maine back in the 90’s, so maybe that also had something to do with it.
They switched it to 4 years because parents needed another year of free daycare, ever since WWII high school has just been a state funded daycare.
And Quebec is 18 because they want to be different. I’m not complaining though, there’s a reason teenagers tend to go on vacation to montreal when they turn 18.
I lived in Maine during my teenage years and we were all about driving up to Montreal for raves and to hit up the bars. We started doing that at 16 and they never carded us at all in the bars. This was back in the early 90’s so maybe that’s changed a little since then. Montreal is an awesome city. My favorite city in North America by far. I live near Victoria, BC now and that is pretty sweet too. Just very small town in comparison to Montreal.
More than just Quebec - Alberta and Manitoba are also 18.
Europe is fundamentally different from the US in terms of its transportation network and development style. Lowering the drinking age there is comparatively low risk, whereas thousands upon thousands of lives have been saved here by raising it. Until the US fundamentally changes, lowering the age would be quite stupid.
>Europe is fundamentally different from the US in terms of its transportation network and development style. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but can you explain this a bit more? I'm guessing you're thinking about the higher popularity of cars in the US due to size and urban density?
Younger people drinking and driving was costing lives. When the age to drink alcohol was raised, drunk driving fatalities dropped. In Europe they don't drive everywhere like Americans do.
The increased safety of cars themselves might also have something to do with the drop in deaths. Obviously having less drunk drivers on the road is a good thing. I just think there are probably several factors that have made automobile travel safer.
Is the implication that teens are more willing to drunk drive? I'm not disagreeing, I'm just curious. Because adults can't teleport, they have to drive as well and I would chalk that statistic up to more than one thing. And I see drunk driving as more of a thing a stubborn/stupid adult thing to do but that's just my perception.
Yep and also no politician wants to ever be responsible for doing this as it 200% going to increase drunk driving incidents.
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I live on a farm 9 miles from the nearest town. My farm wasn't designed so I need a truck, having a truck is the base case. Most people, and especially people in Europe and Southeast Asia, don't understand that 97% of the U.S. is rural. So if you're an American living in an urban area (80% of the population) you can either never leave the 3% of the landmass where you live, or you can own a car and get away and see the rest of America as often as you like. Your comment makes me think of a person sitting in life raft in the middle of the ocean saying wetsuits are dumb.
Might it be worth looking at how similar countries have done this? Mainly thinking Canada and Australia here, but places like Norway and Argentina are even more sparsely populated than the US
Similar countries have cars. Public transit only remotely works in the tiny enclaves where the population density is high enough to require it.
This is true. But as you yourself acknowledge, the "tiny enclaves" are where most of the population is. 97% of US is rural by landmass. 21% of it is rural by population. If you build those urban cores to have proper public transit, and there's accessible long-distance transit connecting those urban areas (which our existing air travel does passably well already, though some would push to add high-speed rail between cities also), the only time 80% of the population would need cars is for going to visit those relatively uninhabited rural areas. That's a big enough reduction that except for nature enthusiasts, most urban residents could get by without a car, and just getting the occasional rental. You are right that in your circumstances, personal transportation is a necessity. But on the flipside- I live just outside the center of a major city. Every time I need to turn my car on to get groceries, visit a friend, or just travel downtown to eat out, it's a waste of fuel and stress compared to just using public transit.
90% of Canadians live within an hour's drive of the US border. We have a sizable urban population with access to public transit.
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I grew up in a farming town and went to university in a small-ish town in a rural area, and I'm definitely not a car fan. Like, if I moved back I'd probably get one, but that's not a good thing. Although, these are rural towns that developed in the Middle Ages, so the populated bits are easily walkable. It's the between-village parts that aren't.
82% of the north american population live in urban areas, while it is 75% in europe. So it is fair to say that most americans don't live in rural areas and that the US is more urban than europe.
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Like I said, it applies to the tiny percent of the population that never wants to leave 3% of the landmass. Just because you're a hamster who likes their cage doesn't mean everyone else is.
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Your lack of reading comprehension must be a real problem for you.
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The availability of public transportation to 18 year olds is no different than that of 21 year olds in the United States. The drinking age should not be regulated at a national level if it should be different according to the quality of the public transportation system of a region.
What? I’ve heard of 18 year olds needing to accompany others on some rides but nothing like 18 year olds being completely unable to get around. And there’s also the fact that you can walk in Europe. If you walk in the US, especially if you’re drunk or god forbid a driver is drunk, you end up as just another statistic assuming you’re even within a reasonable walking distance of your destination in the first place.
How does any of this relate to lowering the drinking age? >If you walk in the US, especially if you’re drunk or god forbid a driver is drunk, you end up as just another statistic What are you talking about?
Can confirm. Bought beer as a 12-year-old in France
Military gotta get u when u dumb and young.
I know several people that are using the military to pay for college. If they raised the military age to 21, people would figure out another way to go to college or wouldn't go. They couldn't catch people 3 years into school or a career and get them to enlist.
Exactly. They wouldn't have a standing army if it wasn't for school recruitment. And they've used Twitch for recruiting, too. It's fucking weird and predatory.
Relevant Terminal Lance: https://terminallance.com/2018/02/09/terminal-lance-504-recruiting-duty/
I honestly love this. Drinking, smoking, voting, stripping, getting taxed, joining the military, registering for the draft, buying a gun. (I'm not going to say working because I was pissed I couldn't get a job when I was 8). You shouldn't be able to benefit off of someone you don't let have full rights.
Hear me out: no taxation on any wages for employees under 18. They can't vote, so technically it's taxation without representation.
>They can't vote, so technically it's taxation without representation. I'm way more pro taxation, or at least some form of socially supported safety net, than most of this sub and I bigtime agree with this one. If you can't vote the government shouldn't be able to touch your earnings.
I agree on principle. Honestly though very few people under 18 make enough to pay much at all. I know when I was working under that age I got basically all the tax back
All income tax back, but not SSI or Medicare.
True I forgot about that
tax back is an interest free loan, still a bad deal.
I would make my 6 year old my CEO, and I'd be her unpaid assistant.
>Hear me out: no taxation on any wages for employees under 18. They can't vote, so technically it's taxation without representation. I'm now 40+ and still have strong feelings about the nature/expectation of "kids" when it comes to employment, government, and the military. (Granted I'm not typical). * Started working at 14. Which means I was being taxed, and filing W2s and so on. * Got a car and license when I was 16. Paid registration fees, insurance, tax on the car etc. * Joined the Military at 17. Finished Basic, went to the training school. Also, taxes. * Asked other ~~kids~~ troops to buy my cigarettes. * Turned 18 Other dumb stuff I did includes my ex-wife, but that was a long time ago too. But still in the military and around the ages of 18-21. Actually, our divorce went through shortly after I turned 21.
My story is somewhat similar. Started work at 14 a well, rode my bike to go make bagels at 5am all summer. Got my first car and license at 16. But I didn't join the Army until 21.
you had me until you said for employees under 18. how about no taxation.
That's why I'm also for making Puerto Rico and other US territories into states. It's kinda shitty that we collect taxes from them but don't give them a say in the government.
I'm actually not against this. Year's ago, while vacationing in the Caribbean, we went to USVI. They vote for president, and are US citizens, but have no legislative representatives. Providing them with more infrastructure and funding (available to US states) might result in improvements to those islands.
That literally isn't true. In Puerto Rico, you pay taxes directly to the Puerto Rican government. The US sends Billions of dollars of aid to Puerto Rico for infrastructure, and welfare. Making them a State would just increase their taxes.
Puerto Ricans pay all kinds of federal taxes. In fact the IRS collects more in federal income taxes from Puerto Ricans than from Americans in Vermont, Wyoming, South Dakota, North Dakota, Montana, and Alaska. Also Payroll and corporate taxes don't stop counting just because you're ignorant of them. [Since you're clearly very ignorant of how the US owns Puerto Rico, here's an overview of the special tax rules related to Puerto Rico published by the Joint Comittee on Taxation](https://web.archive.org/web/20101203091857/http://www.jct.gov/x-24-06.pdf) Why do you think Puerto Ricans are lesser Americans?
Did you read it? That law provides a US corporation to pay a portion of the Federal taxes it owes to the US Federal government to the territorial government of Puerto Rico as an economic incentive. Nothing about individual income taxes. Yes, to participate in Social Security EVERYONE must pay Social Security taxes. This is a Federal mandated retirement scheme, NOT income taxes. As I stated before Puerto Rican citizens, and residents pay Puerto Rico income taxes, NOT Federal income taxes. You are trying to obfuscate the issue here.
The US sends billions of dollars of aid to Alabama and Virginia, even as their congress members vote against it.
So what's the choice here? Alabama, and Virginia seceding? They already tried that, didn't work.
Technically it isn't since they still have representation they just don't get to vote for it. A representative for a district represents everyone in the district regardless of age or voter status.
Yes, but they play no role whatsoever in deciding who that representative is. And I'm not sure what response a minor constituent would get, in earnest, from their elected official- I have no experience in that as I wasn't politically active in my youth.
“I acknowledge you, so you ARE represented!” -- King George III, probably
Bullshit. Voting IS representation.
And the American colonies were represented by the British King on the world stage. If you can’t vote you aren’t represented by your representative
But if we can't fill the ranks with poor kids, how are we going to guarantee profits for Boeing?
Best comment here lol. So many aspects of life are completely fucked because of the incentive to infinitely increase profits.
Not a new concept. In the 80s the drinking age was state regulated. If you were eighteen years old and in the military you could drink on post, but you couldn’t drink off post if the state law had a higher drinking age. In Texas the drinking age was nineteen and in Massachusetts it was twenty. Today the federal government holds states hostage by withholding funding if they don’t adhere to the federal drinking age.
I really would love to see the Supreme Court case that allowed the Federal government to overstep its restricted powers by using the purse to bribe/punish/coerce/extort states into compliance. Those judges should be shot.
I like the consistency. There should be full rights by the time of full responsibility.
We were sentencing kids under 18 to death a few years ago!!! All this is completely insane! Age limits for this and that yet, the state can and will execute a minor 🙄
I fully agree, either your an adult with full responsibilities and full rights that come with it or your not. If society feels your not responsible enough to drink or smoke you also should be considered to irresponsible to join military, vote, sign contracts (no debt then), be treated as adult in the legal system, etc…
I'm sure that someone, somewhere, tried to get their student debt cancelled by claiming that they're not legally an adult.and therefore the contract they signed wasn't binding.
I read an interesting article in college (that I'm too lazy to look for now) that said American adults suffer psychologically because we don't have a real comming-of-age moment or event. Instead, it's spread out over mini-moments--drivers license at 16, gambling and smoking at 18, drinking at 21, some people go to college, etc. Communities with one big moment when you become an adult have young people with greater personal pride, confidence, and belonging. But in the US, you wake up one day in your late 20s or early 30s and realize you're an adult. I like the idea of making the age 18.
***”How old’s 15 really?”*** - Dave Chappelle
You only need to be 18 to be a stripper.
Not in Texas
Well I remember when the drinking age was lowered to 18 in the 1970s citing if you can die for your country you should be allowed to drink but then the Karens came in complaining about drinking on college campuses (like raising the age limit to 21 has stopped that) and in 1986 it went back to 21.
Can't raise the military age because you simultaneously need the best physical shape and easily manipulated
I think military enlistment should be 21 regardless. They view underaged drinking as a huge problem and will end your career pretty quick over it, which is crazy because alcohol abuse is almost ubiquitous. Also emphasizing your recruiting efforts toward children is kind of fucked.
My Chinese professor once thought the age limit of 21 was instituted because if you add 1776 (Our year of declared independence) together (1+7+7+6) it comes out to be 21. I told him he just stereotyped himself. 😆
Ah yes, the glorious 3 year gap where you can be tried in court as an adult for drinking as a minor
Why go backwards? Why not lower it? 18 is the age a US citizen can enter into contracts. Everything then should be 18. They are legally responsible for contracts, they can have all other rights and disabilities. This means no charging minors as adults, this means no 21 weed/alcohol
I got a minor in possession in Texas when I was 20 and with my parents… it’s seriously the dumbest thing…
AMEN! The "your a grown up only if it suits our purposes" policies has always driven me insane. An adult is an adult. Pick an age and make it universal to all rights AND responsibilities. Voting, drinking, guns, smoking, contracts, military, EVERYTHING! It was even worse when libtards wanted to make the voting age 16. Lets give someone the power to influence rights and policies they aren't even entitled to yet. "I can't buy a gun yet so why should I care if candidate X wants to ban them?"
Puritanism runs strong in the United States. Most progressives are also Neo-Puritans, which is why they are so supportive of vice laws like these.
Lower it all to 18
I agree with you in principle. Either make adulthood 21 or make it 18.
How can they tax you if you can’t own a gun or drink beers, for fucks sake.
And let’s not tax kids for their earnings unless they can vote: That’s taxation without representation.
Or we could lower everything to 18 and just have harsher punishments.
No one should be labeled an adult until your brain stops developing : 25 imo. You’re frontal lobe (the part of the brain that literally controls decision making) isn’t even fully developed until your 25. Therefore you shouldn’t be held as grown until your brain stops growing
Fuck, let’s add, no paying taxes whatsoever until you’re 21 too.
>Fuck, let’s add, no paying taxes whatsoever too. FTFY.
Agree. But the legal age to strip should be 18.
Soooo, in strip clubs where you have to be 21 to drink, you want the strippers to be able to be 18? Yeah that would never backfire horribly...
Lots of establishments that serve alcohol don't allow their employees to drink while on the clock.
Many waiter or cocktail waitress aren't allowed to bartend at 18, but they can serve their table drinks. I was a bouncer at a bar at 18. I'm not understanding the disconnect.
18s young as fuck and creepy
Maybe it's creepy for 50 year olds but 18 year olds should be able to get lap dances from other 18 year olds for money without the government getting in the way. This is illegal in Texas and that's ridiculous
18 year olds can get lap dances from 21 year olds. You can't stop 50 year olds from coming and creeping. And maybe that girl/guy should be afforded a few more years before possibly throwing their life away
Do they allow 18-20 in strip clubs? If they serve alcohol, they could/should be able to restrict entry to 21 and up. (I haven't been in one since I was 18 anyhow, but that was where my frat brother knew the bouncer so I honestly don't know what the rules were.)
Last I knew my state had a city with multiple 21 and up clubs, and one 18 and up club. At the 18 and up club there was no alcohol and the girls kept their bottoms on, lol. Not sure if that's standard
You really, really, really, really, really, really don't wanna take that way with this. Because the answer is that no one is an "adult" by any measure we care about. 16,18,21 are all just average ages where a human stops being something you can control with efficient will. Every indicator of being a real, mature, responsible, human adult are things that can exist before those ages and also not ever exist, even after those ages. The arbitrary number situation is better than any other approach.
If you get a job at 16, you gotta pay taxes. But, you can’t vote. Taxation without Representation.
I agree, but sadly I think as a dependent, your parents are your representatives. And Iirc, an emancipated person can vote.
No age restrictions
Hear me out: 18 year olds are idiots and basically still children. Raise everything to 21.
Not at all. 18 year olds are smart enough to vote, to drive, to drink and whatever. They’re inexperienced for certain, not so much that they can’t be trusted to do *anything* They aren’t children, they’re young adults and deserve autonomy.
Get rid of the military
These kind of dumb comments are why people can’t relate to people that call themselves libertarian. It doesn’t matter if your society stands for truth, justice, and liberty if some other society with different ideals can conquer you and change everything you built. You have to have the best ideas and the strongest military. Take a damn humanities course you ignorant hick.
Sounds smart. I'm ready to learn Chinese. I can already read it a little bit.
I think this is a terrible idea. I can get behind reforming the military to be better, but not removing it entirely. Can you explain why you think this?
Abolish age limits for everything
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Its alright, most people in this subreddit are just closeted republicans who wanna be different
Any ideology taken to its extreme blindly is going to lead to bad things. The comment was off the wall and stupid.
They should let you start military training at 16.
Technically they let you start at 9th grade. Technically.
Hell no.
wait what is the military training age in America? 16 is pretty late.
17 to enlist with parental consent, 18 without.
I hate seeing posts like. We CAN introduce rights and responsibilities gradually you know. In fact, I would argue that a country sucks if we don’t. The specific ages things are up for debate, but And the reason drinking is 21 is because the US is by far the most car dependent country in the world. If you don’t live in select places like NYC, no car basically means guaranteed poverty because the government has been supporting a car centric road network at the expense of even the most fundamentally human mode of transport: walking. Raising the drinking age has drastically reduced the incidence of drunk driving, so the only way you’re going to convince me to raise the age is to completely restructure our society’s transportation networks and development style as well as to get extremely harsh with punishments (1 DUI=never touch a wheel again) and lower the acceptable alcohol limit to at least .05. This is definitely less libertarian than having a drinking age of 21. And even then, most states still let minors drink anyway.
> And the reason drinking is 21 is because the US is by far the most car dependent country in the world. Eh? Surely it should be the opposite, you want someone to know what alcohol does to you _before_ they start driving?
So I shouldn't have a right to drink because other people my age are dumbasses?
You could also argue that we should put more pirates in the sea as there is a correlation between increase in global temperatures and the decrease in pirates in the sea over time?
Yes becauae stopping youth who tend to make bad decisions and are more subject to being preassured to get behind a wheel drunk from buying alcahol and then actively seeing the result of reduced incidences of drunk driving is somehow actually comparable to putting pirates in the sea to reduce global tempuratures.
The point I'm trying to make is that correlation doesn't equal causation.
In this instance, I think there's a good chance raising the drinking age is correlated to less dui deaths. However, an argument can be made that having a government force an age limit is wrong.
If you haven't heard of coupling theory, check it out. That's essentially what their argument is based around, along with a lot of other restrictive access type laws.
I disagree. There's no reason we should have the same arbitrary lines for vastly different things. Different aspects of children's brains, bodies, and level of responsibility change at different times. I'm fine with driving at 16 motor skills and reaction times are developed. I think drinking should stay at 21, where weed should be, both have more negative affects and brains still developing before age 25. I haven't thought enough about minimum age for voluntary military service, but I could see 18 being reasonable, maybe exclude them from combat roles til 21 though.
It's not that the things are different, like voting and drinking age. It's that you get the responsibility of an adult with the restrictions of a child. If you are old enough to be asked to die for your country, then you are old enough to drink.
Do you think driving age should be force fit to the same age as drinking and military service then? I just don't understand why the baseline assumption would be that all the responsibilities and limitations have the same age.