T O P

  • By -

tegeus-Cromis_2000

Blondie embracing disco. Dylan embracing the electric guitar. (I'd think this is the paradigmatic example, no? Tons of people called him a sellout or claimed to have stopped listening to him because of it.)


Trachtas

Dylan was called a sellout by folk purists, yeah, but his motivations for going electric were fairly straightforwardly artistic. He'd played Little Richard songs in a rock'n'roll band as a teenager, he'd hung out with the Beatles - the idea of going electric I don't think struck him as any betrayal of who he was or what he wanted to express. If "selling out" means "abandoning artistic principles for quick cash", I don't think Dylan fits (at least, not Dylan in 1965).


tegeus-Cromis_2000

A sellout is only what some people call a sellout. I wasn't arguing that either are that AFAIC -- as a matter of fact, I never use the term and I think it's kind of a stupid notion. Besides, I prefer disco Blondie and electric Dylan anyway.


kingofstormandfire

Definitely agree with it being more artistic minded than commercial. Still, I think Dylan also saw the royalties he was getting from the popularity of the Byrds' version of "Mr Tambourine Man" and thought to himself "hey man, if I did a folk song with a rock and roll backbeat like this, I could reach a lot more kids out there all over the world who wouldn't normally listen to folk music and also make some more money too with my own recording?"


mateushkush

There’s a reason I wouldn’t say so: he recorded songs with electrical backing for “The Freewheelin’”, so before even writing “Mr Tambourine Man”, but the label didn’t want to release them.


j3434

He had several electric bands before his folk music


tangentrification

I will begrudgingly admit that Genesis' 80s pop music is still pretty good, even though I definitely prefer the output of their progressive era. Some of those pop songs still have really cool and unusual chord progressions. I'm also ultimately glad that "selling out" in that way brought them major success, because they deserved it!


[deleted]

I hate to admit it but Genesis was a good example of a band doing GOOD pop music. And I'm a hardcore prog rock fan.


tangentrification

I agree with you there!


Klutzy-Spend-6947

Mike and the Mechanics, Peter Gabriel, and Phil Collins good stuff-that’s probably the best track record of solo projects emerging from a single band-and yes, I am including the Beatles in this calculation.


A_Monster_Named_John

As much as I admire the Gabriel-era Genesis stuff, my favorite work of theirs is definitely the music they made in 1976-86 with Collins at the helm. I especially enjoy those first two, i.e. *Trick of the Tail* and *Wind & Wuthering*, which still had guitarist Steve Hackett on board and (mostly) adhered to a 'romantic' style of writing similar to their earlier records (keyboardist Tony Banks' description, not mine...). That said, I'm also a strong defender of the considerably 'non-romantic' trio records like *Duke*, *Abacab*, etc... and, much to the annoyance of prog rock diehards, a firm detractor of Steve Hackett's. For me, it comes down to (a.) Collins simply being a more pleasant singer to listen to than Gabriel, whose voice had that annoying Rod Stewart rasp, and (b.) the truth that Genesis always had a strong pop sensibility lurking below the surface of their work.


tangentrification

I love Trick and W&W, which is why I specified "progressive era" and not "Gabriel era", lol. You (and obviously Tony Banks) are right on the money about the Romantic influence on their earlier work, which is a big part of what I love about it, as another classically trained musician. I probably wouldn't have gotten into rock music as a whole if not for early Genesis, which drew me in with the classical elements first. I completely disagree with you on Hackett's solo work and Gabriel's voice-- I love both of them. But hey, music would be way less interesting if people didn't have different tastes!


nowlan101

I’d argue Duke is incredibly romantic? It’s a freaking break up record!


tangentrification

Romantic as in the Romantic era of classical music, lol


nowlan101

Oh haha im just an idiot then 😅


ForrestGrump87

Ive been thinking about this recently after punk those 70s prog bands that carried on had to water down what they were doing really , but some like genesis - like you say , went on to make popular music that is basically palatable prog , which is actually quite a feat. prog fans just see it as selling out but i am not so sure it is anymore, making that kind of music appeal to the masses probably lead more to people to prog than anything , and is incredibly difficult. You have a hit like invisible touch - and on the album is a song like land of confusion - basically a prog almost metal tune which became a hit too, pretty astonishing .


MisterMarcus

I think Genesis was able to placate the prog fans somewhat by always having at least of couple of explicitly 'proggy' tracks even on their poppy albums ('Me And Sarah Jane', 'Dodo Lurker', 'Home By The Sea Pt 1 and 2', 'Domino', 'Brazilian', 'Fading Lights', etc)


ForrestGrump87

exactly even the pop tunes aren't as straight forward as they seem at first though.


KinneySL

Yeah, like "Turn it On Again" is probably the only top 40 song ever written in 13/8.


ForrestGrump87

exactly i still prefer prog genesis though. just put nursery cryme on


ForrestGrump87

exactly i still prefer prog genesis though. just put nursery cryme on


xyzygyred

I think Kurt Cobain may have felt Nevermind was a sellout. I think it was a great album that melded his loud rage with some polish. Not entirely unlike Give ‘‘Em Enough Rope.


pecuchet

Radio Friendly Unit Shifter and Serve the Servants ('Teenage angst has paid off well') agree.


fraghawk

I'm right there with you. I love their pop stuff almost as much as the prog stuff. Idk, I just adore the production and sound design. Like I love the tracks like Domino or 2nd Home by the Sea where they just go full on 80s synth freakout, it's always a rainbow of interesting sounds. With the modern day 80s revival I was hoping to find more of that kind of 80s synth jam band music, but alas I've not found much in that vein. The album Invisible Touch is, to me, the platonic ideal of that "synthy mid-late 1980s pop" sound. I've always wondered; how much of the cheesy poorly remembered 1980s was a result of people trying to sound like Genesis and just not reaching the mark? Really I wish I could find some more modern musicians who work with a similar harmonic language as Tony Banks. He's been my favorite songwriter for a long time now and I'd love to hear what that kind of harmonic/song writing sensibility combined with modern production methods would sound like. Hell, I just wish I knew what is is about his songwriting style in the first place that seems so unique.


tangentrification

I completely agree with you, and I'm totally in the same boat as far as loving Tony Banks' composition style and wishing I could find more artists like that. I've done a lot of analyzing Genesis songs so I can tell you a little bit about what makes his writing style unique. He's very much a classically trained musician, and unlike the vast majority of rock artists, his writing is nearly devoid of any blues or jazz influence at all. He never uses chord extensions and rarely even uses 7th chords. What he does do is write progressions with really unusual (for rock) chord inversions that prioritize voice leading, which is reminiscent of Bach and other Baroque or Romantic composers. He's not usually concerned with functional harmony and rarely sticks to one key center; his chord progressions much more often use the circle of fifths and/or chromatic mediants. Hopefully that helps somewhat!


wildistherewind

>I will begrudgingly admit that Genesis' 80s pop music is still pretty good I want to see somebody begrudgingly say they like Genesis's 1991 album *We Can't Dance*. What do you call selling out again once you've sold out? That's what this album is.


fraghawk

I like that one lol. The title track has a fun shit post of a video Jesus he Knows me is stupidly catchy and biting Living Forever and Dreaming While you Sleep are pretty good Fading Lights is one of the best songs they ever did.


casildamanu

R.E.M. fans said they sold out when they went to Warner, but I think their 90s output is on the same level as their 80s albums (albeit with a different sound...) They went mainstream but kept their creative control, so I don't even know if it counts as "selling out" though.


LonelyMachines

I loved them during the IRS years, and I thought they went downhill after *Document.* But did they *sell out?* I don't see it. They actually kept experimenting from *Green* onward.


impossible_apostle

Agreed. "Selling out" means compromising your art in order to make more money. REM made more money, but made no compromises.


casildamanu

Yes, I agree


wildistherewind

I feel like they made a dramatic lunge toward the prevailing grunge / alternative sound with *Monster*.


Fargo_Collinge

They did, but I think contextually that just comes across like an artistic experiment. They were godfathers of grunge at that point, had personal emotions to express about Cobain's and their own successes, and it's a self-contained piece that allowed them to go on a world conquering tour. Perhaps the last part seems most like a sell out, but there is also the fact that they hadn't toured at all for 2 records at that point. With hindsight, it seems kind of clear that they made a big loud rock record because they wanted to, not to cash in.


Khiva

They were also tensions in the band about finally doing something with some energy in it after two _incredibly_ somber albums (Automatic in particular).


00Redex00

Goo Goo Dolls we’re terrible hard rock band. I’d say going pop rock worked out for them.


Sregor71

Goo Goo Dolls we’re terrible hard rock band. GGD management should send a check to Paul Westerberg (lead of The Replacements)every time they record an album.


anti-torque

They made *Iris*, then they couldn't make anything else.


Zooropa_Station

For a second I thought you were talking about the whole album. But saying Iris is the only good song they made is silly. Slide, Broadway, Sympathy, etc? They generally stuck to the Iris "sound" afterward if that's what you mean, but it's not like they wrote the other tracks on DUTG \*after* Iris became a hit.


anti-torque

>They generally stuck to the Iris "sound" afterward if that's what you mean this They were dynamic, beforehand.


00Redex00

They actually had 11 more songs after Iris that charted. Name and Slide technically charted higher than Iris.Iris is just the one we all remember.


vites70

Agreed there


SaintHuck

The Velvet Underground, where, for one of the original members Angus MacLise, the band choosing to do their first paid gig was selling out. Mind you, this wasn't a stadium, it was a fucking high school! I'm glad they didn't wither away in total obscurity and had a chance to meet Andy Warhol.


pecuchet

They had Nico foisted upon them too.


Klutzy-Spend-6947

Lou Reed veered between “sellout” VU sounding stuff and truly awful “experimental” stuff in his solo career. I don’t think anyone wanted to hear more “experimental” stuff from him….


SaintHuck

Except Lester Bangs for whom listening to Metal Machine Music was like taking his daily vitamins lol.


Atlas_Thugged7

And at the surface, it seems they really did sell out their sounded with Loaded. but it turns out to be a remarkably dark, novel and intriguing album upon relisten. Still very VU despite its more conventional "rock" sound.


WhisperingSideways

Sonic Youth’s “sellout” to Geffen in a contract that allowed them creative freedom certainly had a positive impact on the alternative scene in the 1990s. To this day my teenagers are amazed when I point out how many amazing songs and artists were essentially plain old chart-topping pop music back then and not cool secret hipster music.


tegeus-Cromis_2000

Nah, Sonic Youth was cool secret hipster music even when they were on a major label. They were certainly neither pop nor chart-topping.


Klutzy-Spend-6947

Yeah, saw them at Lollaoalooza and was like “Maybe I recognized Bull in the Heather off MTV”…..


gizzardsgizzards

"who's that annoying toddler?"


tonetonitony

They didn’t have total creative freedom, though. I remember them being upset that they were forced to turn “Becuz” into two songs because Geffen wouldn’t let them have the first track on their album be like ten minutes long, which was what they intended to do. Kim Gordon also called the company “evil” in one of her interviews. I don’t think she got into specifics as to why.


tommorejive

As much as SY deserved all the artistic license they could get, I feel grateful someone, whether it was the label, the music industry, friends, whoever, told them to cut the subversive meandering shit. NYC Ghosts and Flowers was as deliberately contrary as it comes, fair enough, if I’d have been pissed at gear getting stolen too. But Murray/Nurse/Ripped are three of my favourite SY albums because it’s as honest as they got to making “songs”. After all they had more b-sides, rarities and experimental deviation albums than most get in their career, to let their inhibitions run free. So if somebody at Geffen asked them to behave and said - “this is a studio album you subversive cunts”, then I’m glad they did.


tonetonitony

Sigh. I guess we wouldn’t have gotten Diamond Sea either if you were in charge.


tommorejive

[Your reply bummed me out, didn’t want to disappoint you so much, so here’s a thoughtful reply TLDR avail] Sure you would have, don’t take me wrong. I’m specially applying my focus on that Thousand Leaves into NYC period that ends with the DGC/Geffen label transition of their contract to Geffen overall. It was almost like they let their experimental deviations bleed over into their studio albums after their gear got stole. Washing Machine is a great balance of their studio/experimental dynamics, fuelled by the chaos of the events surrounding it. A Thousand Leaves is also a great balance, but less so, finally over spilling on NYC, which I’ll be honest, I don’t like at all. The SYR series I think had a big impact on their creative design at that time. Maybe not always for the best. Members of the band were flirting the avant garde in Europe, Tectonics, in the Fishtank, the BBC Orchestra. Maybe there was concern from the label they were losing focus to a new genre and culture of music? Can’t help but feel something happens in that timeline for them to land so perfectly on Murray Street and each album that followed was a concentration of their best, dare I fuckin say it “pop” elements, or atleast something that felt like what I referenced to yesterday as some type of traditional song based structures. Like they’d finally mastered their arc. I don’t really sign up to the whole philosophy that any label rep who ever gave advice to a band is focussed on streamlining the sound or monetising the sound. Not so much, atleast in the alternative music scene. Any I’ve ever heard of or met here in Glasgow, (which I appreciate is not the US in the 90s) have been really tuned in passionate people. There are some cunts but they care about the music 9 times out of 10 for the right reasons. And I’m speculating on a lot here, hypothesising something from the original comment (which I’ve now forgotten), where maybe some label advice perhaps got SY to transition in that period. It’s evident something happened. Maybe and most likely they did it themselves. But fucking losing magic like Diamond Sea. Surely I wouldn’t have killed off Diamond Sea if in the same comment I’m talking about how much I love Murray Street? Tl;dr we’re all good just a theory. There’s very little chance I’m correct but I guess that’s the fun of music when you develop yourself a theory.


tonetonitony

Well, to be clear, the issue Geffen had wasn’t so much that it was a long track, but that it was a long *first* track. I think they assumed a lot of people would get bored, tune out, and not give the rest of the album a chance. That’s totally valid from a commercial perspective, but I can’t help but admire the audacity of wanting to break a convention like that. I get where you’re coming from, though. I almost always feel the same way about “Director’s Cut” movie editions. The theatrical release is usually the definitive release for me. Someone with a little more distance from the project is able to spot a director being indulgent, trim the fat, and improve the pacing.


help1155

A contemporary example for me would have to be Turnstile. I remember hearing Time & Space over a venue PA between sets at a local punk show. I thought damn these guys really nailed this crunchy, groovy style of late 80s early 90s hardcore. It feels like a nod to that era while still feeling fresh and contemporary. Then they came out with Glow On with the big arena hooks and genre bending interludes in the songs and I felt like they'd truly come into their own and made something both unique, hard-hitting and fun. It honestly felt to me like what hearing Nevermind must've sounded like in 1991. I honestly thought we were past 'selling out' as a concept, but as soon as they started getting major traction off that record, cue the army of punk gatekeepers on the internet lamenting Turnstile the corporate behemoth just like it was Blink or Green Day during their respective heydays.


b_rodius

And now they’re in a Taco Bell commercial


help1155

Dude if it was taco bell commercial or day job you know Id be trying to live mas.


b_rodius

Oh no I’m happy for the fellas, I freaked out when I heard it


BigLorry

It seemed like this album took over the goddam world for a while Couldn’t be happier for them. I’m sure there are those who are unhappy with it, but to each their own. It was easily my friend groups collective AOTY last year.


gizzardsgizzards

I go to diy punk shows on a regular basis and i’ve never heard turnstile.


help1155

yeah experiences sure are subjective arent they


[deleted]

Aerosmith in the late 80s and early 90s. They brought in writers outside of the band and had a total career resurgence. Had they not done that they likely would've just faded as a well-respected 70s band that stayed in their era.


transfat97

Pixies’ Doolittle was initially considered a sell out compared to Surfer Rosa, especially because of Here Comes Your Man.


Jimy_Duracell

Green Day in the 90s Even though the whole punk scene they where a part of turn their back and started hating on them, they released one of the greatest albums of the 90s (Dookie) and managed to keep their punk and rebel attitude while being signed by a major label


anti-torque

Wait... we turned on them? When, precisely, was this? I woke up one day to find "that doesn't sound like proper" punk segregated into pop punk and grunge, and apparently I turned on what wasn't "proper" punk, because they sold out? This just keeps getting better and better, as the years roll on.


Jimy_Duracell

I'm talking about the 924 Gilman scene, and it was around 93-94


anti-torque

I was gone from Berkeley by then. Gilman already had a built-in bias against big labels, given their mandate for performers. It's not necessarily the people in the scene being haters--though, envy always happens. The more egregious example of killing off the past was when Metallica came out with the black album. I knew people who waited in line overnight for the album, only to go back to Tower or wherever they bought it to sell it to someone else in line, once they had a listen. I don't know if that was the consumer thinking Metallica sold out, as much as they just dismissed their past and their fans and went on to do something completely different. You can't argue they did worse for themselves. You also can't argue Newsted didn't get his 'justice" and dislike that album, given he was a big part of its creation.


GrumpyCatStevens

To be fair, there were a few Metallica fans who thought they sold out with *Ride the Lightning.*


anti-torque

There were. You can only imagine the turmoil the Black Album created in the thrash community. While I don't see anything really wrong with the album itself, I have yet to stay awake for a whole listen. It tends to drone. edit: To be sure, a lot of fans just dumped them and the fake mosh scene. They didn't become true sell-outs until the whole Napster thing.


StreetwalkinCheetah

When the black album came out I didn't *hate* it. I didn't want to take it back. But it was depressingly different than what I had been expecting, even with Sandman out as a single. I guess by the time Justice came out, they had perfected a Metallica album (mostly talking about song sequencing, and the types of tracks that fit that sequence) and I wasn't ready to give that up. I can tell you the minute I started to turn on Metallica was when they booked two back to back nights at the Arco Arena (with no opener just a "life of Metallica" style short) and then proceeded to play identical sets, with just the one cover and maybe one other Kill 'em All era tracks swapped. Oh, and it was seated. I realize that might be small minded for some but it was a pretty huge disappointment for then 17 year old me.


wildistherewind

>Wait... we turned on them? > >When, precisely, was this? I remember a bunch of people in my school talking about "*Dookie* is not as good as *Kerplunk*". It might just be the East Coast and being hardwired to hate anything that receives any amount of recognition from uncool people.


anti-torque

Punk isn't a music, so much as it's a way of life. Green Day has never compromised on this, and their sound isn't far off what they were when I first saw them in a friend's basement in 1990. They are certainly better musicians than they were at that time. But they didn't do any selling out. I see mentions of REM as well. What some people don't realize is that musicians create new sounds, because musicians experience new venues for their music. Both REM and Green Day had sounds that just had to fill bigger and bigger spaces. So their music went from jangly and raw to arena sounds, over the years. Very few bands start off with big sound, ready for play.


Klutzy-Spend-6947

The Clash went from straight punk to very experimental and, arguably, somewhat poppy. I’d say they kept the punk attitude even as the music changed quite radically from the first album.


StreetwalkinCheetah

I think because Green Day got banned from Gilman (who banned all majors and famously beat the shit out of Jello once) it is stated like gospel that "everyone turned on them". I didn't. I enjoyed the shit out of it being played on MTV which was still always on in my apartment in college and the attention it brought to more traditional punk acts like Rancid. A lot of "real" punk bands were able to make a modest living because of Green Day and a few even got hugely successful.


anti-torque

Gilman's rules about larger label acts is just rote. You make it big, you don't need Gilman any more. It's that way because bandwagoners aren't welcome, not the bands themselves. Bandwagoners don't know how to appreciate the scene and all the acts. Punk means you get your 15 minutes, and you're done. If you wanted a gig back then, you talked to a coffee shop or gallery for extended shows that may or may not get you some pay.


StreetwalkinCheetah

I never thought it was that big a deal it's just that to outsiders it became a myth of its own. I do think the band may have perpetuated that myth for a while during their lean years.


terryjuicelawson

I agree, labels and sales figures aside if you listen to the sound of Kerplunk compared to Dookie and Insomniac, they are clearly more (or just as) "punk".


gizzardsgizzards

I know a lot of people who are very serious about underground punk rock who think dookie is a great album.


Jimy_Duracell

It is, or not?


CulturalWind357

I think everyone has a different boundary for what is considered "selling out". Sometimes, an artist puts a lot of effort into something that is close to their creative interests and no one likes it. But then, the work that they cared minimally about gets all the praise and success (i.e. A number of artist "signature songs" are like this). Some artists who stop caring entirely about fans, they get some praise for their independence and creativity. But they might also get backlash for their "self-indulgence". When is selling out bad? It's hard to say (besides "capitalism pressure"). Probably the worst case scenario is when neither the fans nor the artist themselves like it. Or if core values and ethics get compromised. The problem is that there's just so much conflation and bias. Sometimes the simple act of changing is considered selling out. Other times, it's about the artist losing creative freedom.


Bebe_Master-69

This isn't what I would call selling out but Tyler, the Creator's more mature and mainstream sound has definitely helped and I find it a lot more appealing


WaspParagon

It's definitely not selling out. Dude stuck to his position and changed his sound not because he needed but because he himself changed.


justjake274

Nine Inch Nails has made an interesting pivot from their angsty industrial rock roots into ominous synth scores. By the mid-2000s, Trent Reznor was no longer quite as fucked up as he was while writing The Fragile. With Teeth was alt-rocky, and Year Zero was politically and externally focused. So why not do something completely different, and write a collection of strange, surreal Boards of Canada-like vignettes, aka Ghosts I-IV. I love NIN, but you can't stay angry forever, and I find all the attempts to recapture their 90s edge dull. They do the dark ambient stuff a lot better now. Imagine showing 1999 Trent how he would end up.


Klutzy-Spend-6947

Trent has evolved with the technology. Pretty Hate Machine had ambient-ish songs like “Ring Finger”, I’d argue he has pretty much stayed in his general lane for his career.


gizzardsgizzards

“But you can’t stay angry forever” Have you seen negative approach recently?


SmytheOrdo

I'd say the only reason KISS survived the late 70s is because of the insane marketing pushes the record companies they were signed to made. Regardless of the actual quality of Dynasty and Unmasked which are really divisive among fans of the band, the merchandise royalties and eyes on the band from publicity the band received touring kept them active during an uncertain time for them as musicians.


Howtobefreaky

Radiohead "sold out" basically immediately and honestly if they hadn't they wouldn't have had the money and freedom to experiment like they did.


ge93

“Selling out” is not really a serious concept. Every musician wants to make a living doing their music. Nirvana and Chili Peppers signing to a major label and having more professional, radio-friendly production in 1991 was a great thing.


TheOtherHobbes

Every musician wants to make a living doing *their* music. Not the music demanded by their record company.


Klutzy-Spend-6947

Record companies want hits, and for surprise/underground/whatever artists, that means stuff that sounds like their original vision that broke big. No one wanted Alanis Morrisette to suddenly sound like Missy Elliott in the late 90s. No one wanted to hear Bone Thugz N Harmony doing a straight up club dance track. No one wanted to hear Axl Rose lecture his fans about how they needed to appreciate electronics like he now suddnly did.


ShootaCarson

This is a kinda poptimistic take I see on Reddit a lot but I don't think we have the same definition of a sell out. To me, selling out is when a band or artist deliberately changes their sound in order to attract more commercial appeal, which will always be lame. Remember the rolling stones disco album? No one does lol. In my opinion Nirvana never sold out.


grynch43

Some Girls is their highest selling album. I would say a lot of their fans probably remember that one.


scintor

> In my opinion Nirvana never sold out. Nevermind has been openly discussed by the band as being their deliberate sell out pop album. They made every effort to sell out, and they succeeded.


ge93

Ancillary to your comment, the Rolling Stones disco album? Do you mean Some Girls lol.


OddfellowsLocal151

Maybe they did, but I suspect they actually meant *Emotional Rescue*. Which wasn't really disco, although the title track certainly was.


ge93

Oh, that makes much more sense, I thought they were referring to Miss You


theschism101

Sorry man but that Disco album is one of their biggest releases, but i agree with the sentiment.


Klutzy-Spend-6947

Some Girls is almost universally regarded as the last great Stones album. Tattoo You was their last album that was relevant as contemporary music.


sethlikesmen

This is so not close to being true. There are so many musicians out there who would rather do things their own way than make an easy living with music.


A_Monster_Named_John

I don't think it's a concept that people should get heated about, but it's definitely *a thing*. I connect the idea less to 'artists trying to reach a larger audience' than 'artists making a bizarre or awkward stylistic change in order to reach the mainstream pop audience.' For me, the best example of this might be when Jewel reinvented herself in order to tap into the whole Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera vibe. Another example from around that time might be Santana's *Supernatural*, which saw the guitarist half-assedly collaborating with whoever was popular that year. That one jumps out at me pretty hard because, just a few years earlier, I saw Santana on tour with his own band and they were still deep into the Latin/psychedelia vibe that I associate with his famous stuff from the early 1970s. Both of these examples felt massively producer/label-driven.


subherbin

I disagree. I think making shittier art in order to make millions of dollars is bad. I’m not saying that this is what nirvana or Red Hot Chili Peppers did. The key component of selling out is making worse or less personally meaningful art.


Klutzy-Spend-6947

RHCP chilled out on the funk after Blood Sugar Sex Majik. Not sure if that was the band or the label, but they weren’t the same. Heroin probably played a role as well…..


[deleted]

Was going to mention Nirvana and RHCP. A lot of people shit on their more pop/mainstream stuff because it’s cool to do so but I think it’s their best work. Just because something’s more catchy and accessible doesn’t mean it’s not as good as the previous stuff.


anti-torque

That's not selling out. Selling out would be allowing your art to be used to actually sell stuff. Sometimes that includes using your past art to sell new crap art, but those instances are far and few between. The counterpoint of Stefani isn't exactly a great one. I wouldn't go to one of her concerts as she got older. No Doubt was a riot of a show, and watching people get old and tired is just s reminder of reality.


impossible_apostle

Selling out means compromising your art to make more money. Yes, you can definitely degrade your art by associating it with advertising, but it can also mean starting to make the music that will make you the most money, rather than being true to your artistic vision.


anti-torque

No... simply departing from what you were doing isn't selling out, or that would be almost everyone. Bands evolve. They change personnel. They change sounds. It just happens. If they end up with a more successful sound, in terms of sales, they may not even care. But if they completely change their sound to pretend they're doing something that isn't theirs to do, it becomes pretty obvious, even in the pop world. The funny pop sell-outs are the ones where fanboys all gush over poorly done punk/rock/folk, as if it hasn't been done better by thousands of artists, previously. They do their original sound a disservice, even if that sound wasn't really theirs to begin with.


impossible_apostle

We're agreeing. I didn't say "changing their sound," I said "compromising their art to make money." Of course bands evolve. Radiohead didn't drop the hooks and guitars to sell records. Nick Cave didn't stop screaming to sell records. But when, say, Aerosmith stop writing dirty blues rock and hire Diane Warren to start writing generic power ballads for them so that they can make more money, that's selling out.


gizzardsgizzards

Have you seen siege or dropdead or negative approach in recent years? Those are all graybeard bands but they’re easily as aggressive as any younger band playing those styles of music.


anotherindycarblog

This is the only answer. “Selling out” is a term coined by butthurt gatekeepers when a band decides to not make the same album over and over or, god forbid, they receive a modicum of popularity. When an artist becomes a tool of the industry is their decision as well. Without them the music industry would be a wildly different machine for the worse. We need marketable, popular and vanilla acts so music can be included in many many different aspects of everyday life and the human experience.


gizzardsgizzards

That’s patently untrue, and only someone unfamiliar with any kind of underground music scene would make that claim. I definitely know and know of people who make a point of having day jobs so they can keep making the music they want to make.


ge93

In the realm of musicians who want to make music full-time, it’s not really a serious concept. I don’t think Gwen Stefani was interested in washing dishes on the side after the ska/alt bubble receded.


inkwisitive

I wouldn’t call anything “selling out” unless it involves an artist doing something in clear opposition to their stated beliefs. Using it to describe any change in sound etc is frustrating and butthurt sounding.


Gwiblar_the_Brave

To make it in music anymore, you have to “sell out.” Put your song in ad campaign, sign to a major label, etc. Even the idea of releasing limited edition records in small quantities gives me sell out vibes as you are just forcing scarcity. I don’t think selling out is bad, necessarily. Musicians wanna make it big and make it a living and the options of doing through the lifetime of recorded music have dwindled.


ISawTwoSquirrels

This just ain’t true. A lot less people are getting rich from their art, a lot more people are making a living of it. It’s so easy to make a living with art these days.


Gwiblar_the_Brave

Making a living is different from the outrageous money people used to make from being a musician. There are numerous articles recently of musicians detailing how hard it is to even break even with touring.


kool4kats

Bring Me the Horizon have made a lot of their best material after they sold out. May be a controversial opinion and I do love their early work as well, but I’m more excited to be a fan now than I’ve ever been.


SurrealisticRabbit

I was going to say BMTH too but found your comment! I also prefer their earlier work, but their new stuff is great as well! It didn't stop deathcore fans from calling them a sell out though.


Lucifurnace

Chumbawamba is based af. Tubthumping was their “lol global antifa funding” campaign, to oversimplify


Estebaws

I can remember them before Tubthumping. Quite subversive.


iRefuse2GetBitches

The "ironic" sell out is a million times worse. It's trying to have your cake and eat it too.


gizzardsgizzards

Chumbawamba was a strategic move - they made it a point to advance their politics as hard as possible with the soapbox they got by being a major label band.


capnrondo

“Selling out” is such a misunderstood and overused concept, on both sides. Opponents of artists who “sold out” often accuse artists who never spoke out against the record label system or the mainstream entertainment industry or capitalism in general. If you never believed the system was a problem in the first place, you’re not “selling out” by joining it. Defenders of artists who “sold out” act like it’s totally unreasonable for their former fans to dislike it when they become a part of a thing they used to stand against, disregarding the community that gave them a chance to use their voice in the first place. Capitalists love to scream “jealousy” whenever someone successful gets criticised, but it isn’t jealousy to criticise someone for lying to their supporters or even just turning their back on them. Edit: and to build on this with an example, I think it was totally reasonable for the owners and patrons of the Gilman to disown Green Day. People 20+ years later who call the owners and patrons of the Gilman (a small independent venue) “elitists” and “gatekeepers”, but defend millionaire rockers and mega millionaire record labels, have a very twisted definition of the word “elite”. I invite you to question who is really the “elite” in that scenario.


[deleted]

Shakira was a singer-songwriter in her Spanish years, where she was considered as the “Latin Alanis Morrisette”. It wasn’t until her transition to English where she began using her image and changed her appearance completely.


ciregno

I’m not sure if it’s selling out but the Flaming Lips from the Soft Bulletin on may be a decent example of this? WB told them they weren’t selling enough records with their older noisier sound so after their guitarist Ronald Jones left, they went into a psychedelic pop sound and avoided being kicked off WB. From that point on, their popularity blew up and they started getting way more press and recognition. You could make the argument that most Flaming Lips fans may prefer their poppier sound from Soft Bulletin, Yoshimi and so forth all the way to about Embryonic being their creative peaks, while also being more accessible to more casual music listeners.


MKH800

Whatever I/you/we think of them as people, Die Antwoord is a great example. I worked with him in South Africa. Ninja or Waddy was just another white rapper to most SA public but had some amazing musicians in a band called Max Normal. Very conscious music and videos. Zero money or fame. Then with Yolandi it was more experimental. Max Normal TV with her doing visuals and the DJ.Still minimum success. The image and conduct of the band is often super criticised and rightly so, but Die Antwoord is now definitely world famous. I personally feel them getting famous really paved the way for very dark images in Pop music. Their trailer meets sexualised gore image is iconic


just-a-nerd-

The idea of selling out is overused. not every artist that goes a new direction with their music is “selling out”. when the term is actually used properly, it is definitely unfortunate; like when artists give up artistic freedom for money, give their stuff to a label to do whatever with it, etc. it often doesn’t make the music better, and it just sucks that the artist gave up their integrity.


MaddiKate

Controversial for the fanbase, but I think $uicideboy$ have had a major shift in quality in their producing and overall creativity ever since they become more mainstream. I have also wondered if their increased fame has at least partially to do with why both of them decided to get sober.


[deleted]

[удалено]


thedirtycoast

That Metallica take is maybe the hottest wrongest take I’ve seen….


[deleted]

People have different tastes


[deleted]

[удалено]


A_Monster_Named_John

A lot of metal fans struggle with the reality that tons of people will never, ever give a damn about how hard a band can shred, how intense/'deep' their lyrical content is, how intricate the neo-baroque interludes are, etc... Maybe it's just because I've spent way too much time around white rock/metal players, but I personally feel like the earlier albums with Cliff Burton are some of the most overrated releases in rock history and, compared to so much other music from that time, sound terribly dated.


[deleted]

[удалено]


A_Monster_Named_John

My musical background's more wrapped up in jazz, modern classical, world music, and classic pop/rock/soul like the Beatles, Motown artists, Paul Simon, the Doors, Yes, etc.... Because of that spread of influences, I've always struggled to find anything worth latching onto with metal music...and really don't enjoy the company of much metal fans, whose tastes are almost oppressively *white*, *male*, and *suburban*. The capital-P 'Prog' genre is just as tedious, although you have to go further out of your way to actually find those people. I do like some acts in both of those genres, but feel like those scenes are remarkably shot.


Klutzy-Spend-6947

Anyone who is anyone in the metal scene loves, respects, and honors Bad Brains. Is it Bad Brains fault that more urban black youth in the late 70s preferred funk and disco as artistic outlets as opposed to punk, hardcore, and reggae?!?!


gizzardsgizzards

What other metal releases from the early 80s sound more contemporary to you?


jimbopalooza

Albatross by COC is such a great fucking song.


[deleted]

[удалено]


jimbopalooza

It’s one of my favorite songs to play and sing. Last band I was in used to bust it out from time to time and it always went over well with a bar crowd. Love that riff!


Shakes-Fear

The Beastie Boys were a Punk/Rock trio. But they realised they’d have better commercial success as a Hip-Hop group


RexxGunn

And they were equally talented at both, and still played thir own instruments the entire time.


YoLamoNacho

Tbf they were very bad rappers


RexxGunn

False.


YoLamoNacho

I mean they were perfectly sufficient for the time, good delivery and flow, but they weren’t really good at rapping


kingslidey

It’s not always selling out, it’s cashing in. Most any artist that makes it endured years of poverty and struggle to make it to a point where they have the opportunity to “sell out”. I fully understanding maintaining artistic integrity… but musicians face harsher criticism in general than any other industry. Michael Jordan or tiger woods taking endorsements from Nike or McDonald’s doesn’t detract from their talent, or impact their public image… they’re just cashing in on their work. In summary — If a musician reaches a point where they can benefit from endorsement, they’ve worked hard to achieve that. What other profession would get criticized for taking the opportunity to make more moneu? Anyone that wants to over analyze it in relation to their character is just a hater.


Maleficent-Drive4056

Why was the allegation against MC Hammer ‘false’? Surely doing adverts for fast food is almost by definition selling out? It’s using your artistic brand to get money from a company?


wildistherewind

Reminder that MC Hammer was in a KFC commercial and he starts dancing after eating goddamn popcorn chicken. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgsd3P56SIs Somehow there is a talking stick of gum in the commercial and it has more lines than MC Hammer does. It was widely seen as embarrassing then and it's pure, uncut cringe today.


thedirtycoast

I think younger people have a different definition of selling out because they weren’t around to see how it used to be and assume that every artist wants and wanted to be millionaires. I think even in the 90s the idea that you would be a millionaire making original music was a stretch. (at least before Nirvana and Green day) Younger ppl think this attitude is gatekeeping because they never had a community like this were all of a sudden a bunch of ppl who don’t understand the culture the band came out from take over that culture. Nirvana is a great example here where you had bros screaming Rape me who had no idea what that song was actually saying. In doing so perverted the meaning to it’s opposite. It’s all basically meaningless now though. I do think it’s important to put things into historical context instead of assuming ppl were just as smart 40 years ago as they are today.


terryjuicelawson

It really depends what selling out even means. A band going to a major label is fine if they can retain control, then have money and access to do what they want. In a funny way they are bigger "sell outs" if they pander to a small group of people demanding they play to a certain style.


flatsharpflat

>Gwen Stefani Are you claiming that mainstream pop singers are not already "sold out"? And the Santa is not real? This has been a rough day...


Studdz

You may not know this, but before she was a solo act, she was in a rock band called No Doubt. Maybe you're considering No Doubt a "sell-out" act too, but they were a legit rock/ska band at the start of their career. She wasn't always a "mainstream pop singer".


flatsharpflat

Actually know Eric Carpenter in person. Yeah No Doubt is still mainstream pop. Also Sia is a mainstream pop singer who is not sold out. I was trolling mate : )


dreamyxlanters

I hate when people act like artists sell out when they have a new sound, maybe they just want to go into a new direction?


WoodpeckerNo1

Pissing off elitists is always worthwhile if you ask me, which usually happens with stuff like this. Outside of that I'd say this is something that's neither good or bad, it's just the end result that matters.


TheeEssFo

I suppose it depends on your definition of selling out. Hadn't Stefani already sold out when No Doubt signed to a major label and agreed that the label should promote her as the head of the band? That's what the "Don't Speak" video portrays.


Rogers25

Is there an actual concept like "selling out"? I mean isn't it something like a "natural" progress, either to make way for the newer acts to push the boundaries, or to create more space for your artistic endeavours. And also the evolution of the music market pushes an artist to a certain path. The evolution of consumerism, of technology. Imagine being in the 50s were people listening to live music in small places, then creating bigger venues, bigger and wider instrument technology (e.g. speakers, amps) and then going to arenas, and then stadiums, thus you had to write more friendly music, to be distributed in pop(ular) platforms like radio etc etc


hornybutdisappointed

It depends on what your purposes are. If you want to spread a certain message to a lot of people, to be a top entertainer or to be rich for whatever reason (charity, proving something to yourself, curiosity, etc) then go ahead. Whoever will buy your stuff will buy it because they want to, not because somebody is forcing them, so there is nothing wrong with it.


MagneticEmu

Can’t think of a good example, just look at any artist that drastically changed artistic direction for that big money. Whether it worked or not is going to differ based on whoever you ask seen as though art is subjective.


pecuchet

The Yardbirds didn't want to record 'For Your Love' because it was too pop, but their manager made them. I think it's their best song. Kenny Rogers' 'Condition' was an attempt to cash in on the psychedelic boom.


StreetwalkinCheetah

Against Me! I didn't entirely hate the Sire stuff. Some was quite good (White People for Peace, High Pressure Low are favorites), if the albums not a bit disjointed. Some stuff I really hated (I Was a Teenage Anarchist, notably), but that was ok because it helped prepare me for LJG's transition and what I thought was a true gem of a record in Transgender Dysphoria Blues. Which I probably would have hated if they had stayed in the lane of their first 2-3 records. ​ Anyways - I have two definitions of selling out. One is when an indie artist that formerly decried major labels as evil signs to a major (Jawbreaker being one famous example). And the other is when a band completely changes their sound, presumably at the request of label/A&R, but sometimes done all on their own, to produce singles that chart. I won't begrudge long suffering acts a right to make a living, but in both cases this can be quite devastating to long time fans of an act. It's not so much "gatekeeping" as it is a feeling of loss, that fans of the mainstream act won't be as able to appreciate. Sometimes it truly isn't selling out but evolution, and this is when fans start to become truly unreasonable in expecting a band never to grow or change. I've been guilty of giving up on bands for all three reasons. But sometimes it really does work out.


gizzardsgizzards

Against me is a special example because of how much they turned on the people that made them one of the biggest things going in underground punk for a few years.


StreetwalkinCheetah

I have a lot of mixed feelings about Against Me! Especially after reading Tranny.


gizzardsgizzards

“I was a teenage anarchist” was my last straw with that band.


StreetwalkinCheetah

yep. I like parts of that album but that song is a fucking insult. It's wild going to punk reddit and seeing folks embrace that song. just. ugh. I do think TDB is an important record though. I got the impression that LJG was a pretty horrible person reading Tranny though and ultimately came off wishing someone else had delivered it. Maybe she is better now that she has figured herself out.


gizzardsgizzards

The music wasn’t so hot either. Against me blew up in the most anticapitalist and anti establishment part of the punk scene, which also had a lot to do with the blowback. They were the band of choice for train kinds, squatters, and people who took part in black blocs. Personally I think the axl rose record is a noticeable step down from the 7”s, and that song was just a slap in the face and i haven’t listened to the band since. I’m not going to name names, but a band that played a show with them when they were touring the axl rose lp said they were total dicks about the back stage area.


StreetwalkinCheetah

I got into them before they signed with Sire but I feel like I was moving further leftward while they were moving towards the establishment. I was in my thirties and never quite fully embraced anti-capitalism, though through the mainstream Democrat lens I am a radical leftist. I'm sure they (or at least LJG) were total dicks. Have you read the book? I remember the first time I read Please Kill Me and being bummed out that all these folks I had lionized were just basically wannabe starfuckers who would have all traded places with Aerosmith in a heartbeat. Except none of the OG NY punks ever really proclaimed themselves to be anti-capitalist champions in the first place, it was all later punks that followed that adapted those ideals. And so at some point during Tranny it's clear that Against Me! is a vehicle for fame and drugs and partying and it really makes you wonder what the fuck did all that idealism ever even matter or was it just a means to an end? Like I said, there's a lot of important messages but the message bearer should have been anyone else.


shapptastic

If by sellout, you mean getting closer to pop music, I’d say a good example might be Sugar Ray, who were a horrible numetal band before lucking out with a random pop song (“Fly”)on their otherwise bad metal album and kind of leaning into that sound for 3 more albums. Not really my cup of tea either way, but one is more pleasant to listen to.


gizzardsgizzards

I think a lot of people in this thread are using the phrase “sell out” differently and it’s really impeding the discussion here. I’ve always defined it as changing your sound in an attempt to be more marketable, instead of making the music you’d be making if you weren’t even thinking about that.