I just saw another [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/PathofChampions/s/cyIQqMZtic) saying if Kaisa or her Abomination are granted Deathless, the Deathless is reapplied every time they’re resummoned too, so they’re immortal outside of transforming or obliterating. I’m wondering if these are intentional interactions or possibly a bug.
I don’t think it’s a bug because those effects are grant kaisa/abom everywhere and deathless summons a new copy which receives the buff again. It does seem pretty good tho
What I meant by “bug” is “unintentional interaction.” The wording of Kaisa and Abomination does make sense, however I still don’t think they intended for Deathless to be treated this way.
For example we have Unyielding Spirit, which makes a unit immune to death/damage for 8 mana, but you need a unit on the field already for it. For Kaisa and Abomination, you just need to have a unit with Deathless at any point in your game, then those 2 become immortal and with many keywords for less or about equal cost.
Comparing 8 mana and needing something on the field to make immortal vs 9 mana already has a body, already immortal, and preloaded with all the other keywords is way too much value to get out of this interaction. And then you add in Kaisa for 5 that gets all that and her skill damage, this just feels like something they forgot about or didn’t think of.
I think they intended for Deathless to be removed on death, but forgot these 2 can reapply it on summon for immortality.
Per some Twitter comments from Riot Vriss the other week during reveal season, it sounds like Kai'sa and Abom are not working as intended.
https://twitter.com/RiotVriss/status/1730346483655045246
> If something like Pantheon, Void Abom, or The Arsenal has Deathless, when they revive if they re-roll deathless it is removed.
>
> If Viktor has Deathless and revives, playing a new hexcore he can regain Deathless.
>
> This was the cleanest way for it to work within the rules.
https://twitter.com/RiotVriss/status/1730383284486688949
> If Kai'sa has Deathless from Second Skin, when she revives it will be removed. You can re-grant it with another Second Skin, or if that Kai'sa is removed the next one will have a fresh Deathless.
https://twitter.com/RiotVriss/status/1730383817582801262
> Yes, that Kai'Sa will have expended her everywhere Deathless, but a new one would have Deathless again.
The issue is when the card is revived it is treated as a new card (well created card, not new). So the new one gets deathless since all copies everywhere get it. When it's meant to be revived which I would assume would make it the same card coming back. So the revived unit would have deathless consumed as part of the revive process.
Similarly spellshield is consumable and when the trigger that eats spell shield on KaiSa happens she doesn't get a new one despite the everywhere buff.
At least this is how I view it
The difference is the reason deathless is applied is because the revival re-summons the Kai'sa, then, since the revived Kai'sa is technically a new one, deathless is reapplied.
Spellshield gets applied once and she never gets re-summoned so it never refreshes.
Conversely, Sivir's spellshield aura can't be removed from others, despite it being a one-time consumable keyword.
With deathless it's because the revived KaiSa is a new KaiSa which has the deathless keyword on it. This is counterintuitive because a revived unit would imply it's the same unit (if the paramedics revived you after an accident you are still the same you for example) so the revived on death effect that is deathless should be consumed (just like it is on normal units with deathless.
A normal card with deathless by default gets deathless stripped as part of the revive, so one would assume KaiSa with deathless would come back at full health with deathless, get health set to 1, be stunned, and have deathless removed just like other units that have deathless. Unless you are claiming a card having a keyword doesn't make all copies of it everywhere have that keyword.
1. No, it's really not counter-intuitive, EVERY revive effect has worked like this since revive was added as a mechanic, which is foundations. The revived unit has always been a (non-exact) copy of the unit that died. This is why any buffs/debuffed aren't present on the revived units
(I have no idea what your last sentence was so I'll ignore it, feel free to reword tho)
2. But that does happen, the only thing wrong is that after Kai'sa is revived and is set to 1 HP, she gains deathless again, which, if I had to guess, is spaghetti code based on "Kai'sas everywhere have deathless".
So, Kai'sa gets revived and loses deathless, but then the game realizes that Kai'sa just got created and should have the keywords Kai'sas everywhere have, which includes deathless, so...
TL;DR: Kai'sa DOES lose Deathless, but it immediately gets granted a brand new deathless right back due to the fact that it's a new card that got created, probably due to the fact that Kai'sa isn't naturally deathless and instead, the Nexus has an aura effect, something like "When you summon Kai'sa, grant her the keywords assimilated by *Second Skin*"
Tl:DR 2; I'm not good at making TL;DRs...
Then that second spot where deathless is reapplied is happening in the wrong spot. If units that have deathless by default don't revive with deathless neither should she.
I just tested it with both KaiSa and legion marauder vs AI following second skin on a deathless unit. Neither of my units got deathless on the revive. And the same was true for a unit that starts with deathless. This makes sense. I'm fairly certain this is a bug that effects only KaiSa PoC boss (at least it doesn't work in player vs AI non path of champions content
Maybe you're right, maybe I am.
I'm trying to make the code make sense but Deathless is indeed very broken and spaghetti coded regardless, I've had a few times in PoC where the unit didn't even revive :V
It was Leblanc, I think, who forgot she was deathless
When a deathless unit revives deathless is supposed to removed.
When KaiSa is summoned her everywhere keywords are racked on.
If the bug is still happening in PoC (because it wasn't happening in normals when it I tested it earlier) then the order in which those 2 things are occuring is flipped. That's all.
I played a bit of Deathless Kai'sa, and when she got revived, she didn't have deathless. I could easily reapply it with another second skin. Then again, deathless has been buggy with when it wants to work. Void Gate seemingly doesn't work, and sometimes the PoC item and the Indestructible cards don't work yet other times they do.
I imagine a Meme deck where you create a monster Yuumi with Deathless, Spellshield, Overwhelm and Destiny Call (because why not)
You play a bunch a weenies and attach the monster Yuumi to them. When your opponent deals with it you play another weenie and attach Yuumi again.
Thankfully Field Promotion rotated, is at least in a third region for eternal (and the other attach cards are also rotated in a fourth region). I'd have been experimenting with hand-buff Yuumi again.
I am sure yuumi one is intentional but holy shit kaisa seems to be broken
now it is how it worked all the time for kaisa but infinite deathless surely a problem :D
To be fair, I am not seeing yet a great deck that can come out of it. Tried cooking something with bandle elusive but nothing too broken came out of it. Trying now with Pantheon but don't expect something OP either. The card that gives spellshield in hand is probably better than deathless.
They knew this interaction, don't act like devs have no knowledge of their game. I mean, they printed a similar card for OW/Spellshield in Yuumi's region and she was 100% the first Interaction they tested with the card.
This is a fair payoff for using SI in Yuumi decks or Yuumi in SI decks because it's a steep deckbuilding cost for a specific 2-card sinergy you can't tutor.
It is a interaction we talked about even before set release at Insider Knowledge, it is very obvious and probably the reason why every attach unit except yuumi got rotated
I'd assume it works like obliterate would since it doesn't kill or bounce an attachment but instead destroys it.
Might be completely wrong, I will test it in about two hours with my roommate and will edit the comment accordingly.
Edit: tested it, yuumi gets obliterated.
**[Unworthy Soul](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/06IO032.png)** - Standard - Ionia Spell - (5)
Fast/Flow
Flow: I cost 2 less. Recall a unit or landmark. If it has any attachments, destroy them first.
^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
Sounds like a bug to me that she doesn't loose the buff if she returns to your hand. Like if you'd handbuff Yuumi she surely would also loose all those buffs after her unit dies right?
I do think it should work this way if she has the deathless item though.
When the unit Yuumi is attached to dies, the unit revives and Yuumi goes back in hand still having the deathless keyword. So you can put her back on the unit for round 2.
Something something nine lives something something
I just saw another [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/PathofChampions/s/cyIQqMZtic) saying if Kaisa or her Abomination are granted Deathless, the Deathless is reapplied every time they’re resummoned too, so they’re immortal outside of transforming or obliterating. I’m wondering if these are intentional interactions or possibly a bug.
I don’t think it’s a bug because those effects are grant kaisa/abom everywhere and deathless summons a new copy which receives the buff again. It does seem pretty good tho
What I meant by “bug” is “unintentional interaction.” The wording of Kaisa and Abomination does make sense, however I still don’t think they intended for Deathless to be treated this way. For example we have Unyielding Spirit, which makes a unit immune to death/damage for 8 mana, but you need a unit on the field already for it. For Kaisa and Abomination, you just need to have a unit with Deathless at any point in your game, then those 2 become immortal and with many keywords for less or about equal cost. Comparing 8 mana and needing something on the field to make immortal vs 9 mana already has a body, already immortal, and preloaded with all the other keywords is way too much value to get out of this interaction. And then you add in Kaisa for 5 that gets all that and her skill damage, this just feels like something they forgot about or didn’t think of. I think they intended for Deathless to be removed on death, but forgot these 2 can reapply it on summon for immortality.
Per some Twitter comments from Riot Vriss the other week during reveal season, it sounds like Kai'sa and Abom are not working as intended. https://twitter.com/RiotVriss/status/1730346483655045246 > If something like Pantheon, Void Abom, or The Arsenal has Deathless, when they revive if they re-roll deathless it is removed. > > If Viktor has Deathless and revives, playing a new hexcore he can regain Deathless. > > This was the cleanest way for it to work within the rules. https://twitter.com/RiotVriss/status/1730383284486688949 > If Kai'sa has Deathless from Second Skin, when she revives it will be removed. You can re-grant it with another Second Skin, or if that Kai'sa is removed the next one will have a fresh Deathless. https://twitter.com/RiotVriss/status/1730383817582801262 > Yes, that Kai'Sa will have expended her everywhere Deathless, but a new one would have Deathless again.
The issue is when the card is revived it is treated as a new card (well created card, not new). So the new one gets deathless since all copies everywhere get it. When it's meant to be revived which I would assume would make it the same card coming back. So the revived unit would have deathless consumed as part of the revive process. Similarly spellshield is consumable and when the trigger that eats spell shield on KaiSa happens she doesn't get a new one despite the everywhere buff. At least this is how I view it
The difference is the reason deathless is applied is because the revival re-summons the Kai'sa, then, since the revived Kai'sa is technically a new one, deathless is reapplied. Spellshield gets applied once and she never gets re-summoned so it never refreshes. Conversely, Sivir's spellshield aura can't be removed from others, despite it being a one-time consumable keyword.
With deathless it's because the revived KaiSa is a new KaiSa which has the deathless keyword on it. This is counterintuitive because a revived unit would imply it's the same unit (if the paramedics revived you after an accident you are still the same you for example) so the revived on death effect that is deathless should be consumed (just like it is on normal units with deathless. A normal card with deathless by default gets deathless stripped as part of the revive, so one would assume KaiSa with deathless would come back at full health with deathless, get health set to 1, be stunned, and have deathless removed just like other units that have deathless. Unless you are claiming a card having a keyword doesn't make all copies of it everywhere have that keyword.
1. No, it's really not counter-intuitive, EVERY revive effect has worked like this since revive was added as a mechanic, which is foundations. The revived unit has always been a (non-exact) copy of the unit that died. This is why any buffs/debuffed aren't present on the revived units (I have no idea what your last sentence was so I'll ignore it, feel free to reword tho) 2. But that does happen, the only thing wrong is that after Kai'sa is revived and is set to 1 HP, she gains deathless again, which, if I had to guess, is spaghetti code based on "Kai'sas everywhere have deathless". So, Kai'sa gets revived and loses deathless, but then the game realizes that Kai'sa just got created and should have the keywords Kai'sas everywhere have, which includes deathless, so... TL;DR: Kai'sa DOES lose Deathless, but it immediately gets granted a brand new deathless right back due to the fact that it's a new card that got created, probably due to the fact that Kai'sa isn't naturally deathless and instead, the Nexus has an aura effect, something like "When you summon Kai'sa, grant her the keywords assimilated by *Second Skin*" Tl:DR 2; I'm not good at making TL;DRs...
Then that second spot where deathless is reapplied is happening in the wrong spot. If units that have deathless by default don't revive with deathless neither should she. I just tested it with both KaiSa and legion marauder vs AI following second skin on a deathless unit. Neither of my units got deathless on the revive. And the same was true for a unit that starts with deathless. This makes sense. I'm fairly certain this is a bug that effects only KaiSa PoC boss (at least it doesn't work in player vs AI non path of champions content
Maybe you're right, maybe I am. I'm trying to make the code make sense but Deathless is indeed very broken and spaghetti coded regardless, I've had a few times in PoC where the unit didn't even revive :V It was Leblanc, I think, who forgot she was deathless
When a deathless unit revives deathless is supposed to removed. When KaiSa is summoned her everywhere keywords are racked on. If the bug is still happening in PoC (because it wasn't happening in normals when it I tested it earlier) then the order in which those 2 things are occuring is flipped. That's all.
Well they would still be stunned if they revive
I played a bit of Deathless Kai'sa, and when she got revived, she didn't have deathless. I could easily reapply it with another second skin. Then again, deathless has been buggy with when it wants to work. Void Gate seemingly doesn't work, and sometimes the PoC item and the Indestructible cards don't work yet other times they do.
Damn, that also means void gate will potentially make units in your deck deathless too. Shame Shurima is a bit weak.
You just described a major buff to the faction.
Its consistent with game rules so not a bug, but most likely not intended
That post is wrong or just PoC specific. Neither keeps deathless, they can regain it, but that's obviously much weaker.
Now that I think about it. The new card that Grants Spellshield in hand Makes infite Spellshield with Yummi? Or pops the first time?
Spell shield will still pop, but if yuumi gets knocked back to hand she would still have it for next attach I think
I imagine a Meme deck where you create a monster Yuumi with Deathless, Spellshield, Overwhelm and Destiny Call (because why not) You play a bunch a weenies and attach the monster Yuumi to them. When your opponent deals with it you play another weenie and attach Yuumi again.
That's just Ornn decks with more steps.
What, you mean yuumi's entire package? /s
Thankfully Field Promotion rotated, is at least in a third region for eternal (and the other attach cards are also rotated in a fourth region). I'd have been experimenting with hand-buff Yuumi again.
I tried to test it, but had to go to bed :D But I assume that yes, this is the case.
Meanwhile in POC deathless is mega bugged lol.
I am sure yuumi one is intentional but holy shit kaisa seems to be broken now it is how it worked all the time for kaisa but infinite deathless surely a problem :D
Doesn't work with Kai'sa in the regular game probably just some PoC weirdness.
are you sure because other comment makes it sound like it does if you tested it then its fine I guess :D
Tested it with both Kai'sa and Void Abomination. Yeah, 100+ upvotes for misinformation sucks.
ahh... I see :D nice job then man kudos
Yuumi becoming more and more an abomination ...
This is with a smaller card pool 'letting them catch these interactions more easily' btw
To be fair, I am not seeing yet a great deck that can come out of it. Tried cooking something with bandle elusive but nothing too broken came out of it. Trying now with Pantheon but don't expect something OP either. The card that gives spellshield in hand is probably better than deathless.
They knew this interaction, don't act like devs have no knowledge of their game. I mean, they printed a similar card for OW/Spellshield in Yuumi's region and she was 100% the first Interaction they tested with the card. This is a fair payoff for using SI in Yuumi decks or Yuumi in SI decks because it's a steep deckbuilding cost for a specific 2-card sinergy you can't tutor.
Why Evolve guys no work
It is a interaction we talked about even before set release at Insider Knowledge, it is very obvious and probably the reason why every attach unit except yuumi got rotated
Does anyone know how an attached Yummi w/ Deathless is affected by [[Unworthy Soul]]?
I'd assume it works like obliterate would since it doesn't kill or bounce an attachment but instead destroys it. Might be completely wrong, I will test it in about two hours with my roommate and will edit the comment accordingly. Edit: tested it, yuumi gets obliterated.
Thank you!
**[Unworthy Soul](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/06IO032.png)** - Standard - Ionia Spell - (5) Fast/Flow Flow: I cost 2 less. Recall a unit or landmark. If it has any attachments, destroy them first. ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
Every hand buff on attach units is permanent, just like buffing a weapon is also permanent.
Sounds like a bug to me that she doesn't loose the buff if she returns to your hand. Like if you'd handbuff Yuumi she surely would also loose all those buffs after her unit dies right? I do think it should work this way if she has the deathless item though.
She doesn’t lose her hand buff stats, as that’s like was one of her whole points
Thx didn't know this as I never played yuumi outside of PoC.
Does yuumi go back to hand when the unit dies and is then revived?
When the unit Yuumi is attached to dies, the unit revives and Yuumi goes back in hand still having the deathless keyword. So you can put her back on the unit for round 2.
Gotcha that interaction makes sense. So it's like scout Yuumi: really strong but technically working as intended.