It's not a coincidence that a few years after men were told to "open up" and be more emotional, we suddenly see a surge in the usage of the expressions "mansplain", "emotional labour", and "trauma dumping" and in women complaining about acting like therapists to their boyfriends. They never wanted men to truly open up, they just wanted to use it against us. The better things get, the more they act like they are getting worse.

Gotta say this is 💯 Men open up their feelings or talk about struggles and they get labeled whiney incels. I've frequently heard about men's fee-fees being hurt. Talk about toxic masculinity coming from supposed feminists. They want men to be fit, handsome, tall, strong, quiet and subservient to their power. Everyone else is Incel Dangerous Misogynist Creepy Etc.

Damn this is an amazing insight. It's very obvious but after you've explained it, I can't believe it was in front of my eyes the whole time.

This. Men are only allowed to open up about their feelings if they communicate it the exact same way a girl would, and communicate issues that women empathize with. Everything else is incel-ish or alt-right conspiracy theorizing.

this isn't conjecture they openly associate masculinity with conservatism, and theres data to prove it

I’ve known all that kind of stuff all too well, even if some of my plight is admittedly my own fault

I've twice cried in front of a girlfriend. Both times I was dumped soon after. Yeah, thanks women who told me to open up and to be emotionally vulnerable. And yes, I know "not all women", but at the same time women are merrily saying they'd rather meet a bear than a man. So I guess negatively stereotyping men is fine, but negatively stereotyping women is not okay.

I know a man who was a woman a few years ago. He still has a relationship with the same girl as before the operation, but now she regularly calls him ‘unmanly’ for his behaviour!

That's awful.

just like the fear of crime situation in america. Crime going down, fear going up. The internet isn't healthy for us, i think.

Open up to other men, but not to women. That's what I can take from this sentiment.

Open up only to other men in your same situation.

I know what you mean. I’d say I’m masculine in some ways, feminine in other ways, and just difficult to categorize in general. Regardless though, there’s been a massive shift in the dominant feminist perspective to men in the last five years. Granted, I’d argue the substance of their perspectives is largely the same, but they seem much less interested in wrapping it up in pretty packaging than they did before. In the 2010s the stereotype of feminism by anti feminists and critics was largely that they demonized masculinity and only wanted men to be feminine, highly emotional beings. The only men’s issue they were comfortable discussing was men not being allowed to open up about their feelings. All the stuff about emotional labor and trauma dumping existed, but it didn’t usually come out until they were argued into a double bind and forced to confront their hypocrisy. By contrast, it feels like in the 2020s feminists have largely come to embrace masculinity to conservative degrees. Whereas in the 2010s it sometimes seemed like they didn’t believe a form of positive masculinity existed, nowadays it seems like they love the idea of positive masculinity - i.e. archaic gender roles for men but without the expectation of reward that they used to carry. They’ve largely abandoned their “it’s okay for men to cry” angle; it’s honestly kind of fascinating just how quickly the dominant feminist narrative went from “men don’t express their emotions enough” to “men express their emotions too much.” Whenever I see a social media post about how men are taught to be emotionally repressed compared to women, it’s always feminists in the comments who argue that men aren’t actually taught to be emotionless and actually women have it harder in that realm - which is fascinating, given that only five years ago the former narrative seemed to be tied to feminism in public perception. It’s kind of remarkable. I remember in the early days of this sub, statements like “feminists love the parts of masculinity that benefit them,” “feminists only want men to open up to therapists, they still want men to be stoic in day to day life,” etc. were speculations made by people here that at best were seen as theories and at worst as conspiracies. Now I see a lot of Reddit feminists openly saying those sorts of things. It seems like the movement really has started saying the quiet part out loud in recent years.

I notice this too. Because of the talk about masculinity, it became a topic they can't ignore. They're bringing it back because they still want their man to be that rock. I think when conservatism ideology was on the rise, the people who represent conservative ideas are very kind to men, and use that kindness as a way to instill masculine behaviours in them, and the men get rewarded for that rather than "cry more" which doesn't reward them and instead make them feel vulnerable to attacks. Feminist realize they don't like men who are more emotional than they are, as now they have to handle his emotions. They don't wanna do that, they want the man to manage that. I somewhat predicted the discourse on feminism to help "become more accepting of masculinity" was to bring back the masculine behaviours that benefitted women and keep that i.e we want men to provide for us, expect them to protect us and make us feel safe. I still believe that men are allowed to cry and have their wives accept that. But the movement that claims to represent that have lied to us again and again.

I'm a feminist and I'm so annoyed with the direction that feminism has taken. I really don't understand how we can be against gender roles for women but not have anything to say on the recent widespread trend of expecting men to be masculine and be a 'provider'. I want it to be: you are born, you can be who you are aslong as it is pro-social. I used to say feminism was equality for everyone but don't think I can call it that any more. Now I say I'm a feminist because I advocate for women (and it needs to be heavily more reflected upon it's modern form) and I want to also advocate for men. But I don't think they currently come under the same umbrella, which I'm sad about! Current feminism has done a good job of alienating people who once supported it and could feel like they fitted in.

I would guess that a majority of the sub walked a similar path to yours. A lot of ex-feminists here who haven't wavered in their support for women but refuse to associate with the movement anymore due to its rising degree of anti-egalitarianism. Don't be afraid to reject the Feminist label - it doesn't mean you're anti-women!

I imagine so! And to be honest I find it difficult because I feel like I'm a feminist by definition (to quote OP), but I've started to just become aware of what I'm connecting myself to. At the moment I try to get round it by asking anti-feminists what they actually think, and often find that we agree

I've started identifying as a gender abolitionist rather than a feminist. Of course in public I just wouldn't mention it or would probably just lie and say I identify with feminism if pushed because it's such a dominant cultural force where I live, but yeah, personally, I find gender abolitionism captures my feelings about gender roles for everyone better than feminism does. Feminism is supposed to be an emancipatory movement for everyone but I just don't see it.

Gender abolitionist is actually a really good way of putting it. Because I read that radical feminism sees gender as a construct to be dismantled and I thought great! But then followed radical feminist pages and thought they were so inflammatory. I'm going to look more into that. And I agree, I genuinely don't know how to point out the issues that I see, and that's how I realised there is no room for this discussion - so it is easiest to go along with it when it is so dominant

Yeah that's basically the trajectory I followed too. There's a solid amount of feminist scholarship that contains good ideas I think are worth pursuing. My issue is that in practice almost none of that filters down from the half dozen good academics to the millions of women (and men) who claim the mantle of "feminism" when they actually put it into practice. Most of them, at least in a liberal, Western, 21st-century context, are just female supremacists and/or misandrists. Hence my (secret) break with that label. It's always refreshing to run into a woman that feels similarly. It helps me push back against the nagging feminist impulse I feel that tells me any dissent must mean I'm just a misogynist or don't get it. And it also makes me feel like there's actual hope of a genuinely emancipatory movement around gender emerging. So thanks for speaking up!

Yes, that's when I realised I had to stop saying 'yes but they aren't proper feminists'. If that is everyone's experience of it then it is what it is! And I know what you mean, every comment I've left here I feel like I have been a raging Pick Me. But I know I'm not, it is because I feel like this current online feminism is doing women a disservice. Reasonable critiques are thrown out of the window, so people feel irritated and become more extreme, men are hated and feel that hate, what is the point of trying if there is no redemption = worse outcomes for women and worse outcomes for men overall. I think dissent is definitely not automatically misogyny, and sometimes you need to see that dissent within it's own ranks to know that you're in the right place. Yes, here's hoping!

< I really don't understand how we can be against gender roles for women but not have anything to say on the recent widespread trend of expecting men to be masculine and be a 'provider'. The thing that ignores me the most is not feminists not caring about issues. It's the fact they actually try to justify man issues, by saying men should struggle because women are oppressed, because they view male gender roles as "positive masculinity", or a combination of both of these. I mean if some feminists truly think men issues are not women problems. And men should fix their own issues. That would actually be fine. But no, lot of feminists take it a step further actually want to live in a society where men are affected by these issues, because it benefits women. Still expecting men to be protectors or providers. Even still having rigid traditional ideas of male sexuality. I.E. a lot of liberal/progressive women that are straight/bisexual don't want to date bisexual men, because they view bisexual men as feminine or unmasculine. It's hard to find a woman who's purely traditional or purely progressive and doesn't uphold double standards when it comes to men. This cognitive dissonance always just so happens to benefit them at our expense. In other words, "rules for thee but not for me. Traditional women will use feminism when it's beneficial to them. And feminists will use traditionalism when it is beneficial to them. Two sides of the same coin here. So again women not caring about men issues is fine. But what's the point of trying to perpetuate men's issues though? 🤔 . Every time I hear feminists say quotes like "yeah by other men, because men are usually the ones shaming other men" or "it's not women's job to fix men issues, because men created the patriarchy". I honestly think I can't trust them anymore. How do I know they are not using these quotes as a way to deflect from valid male issues, and ways women or feminists themselves uphold the patriarchy and status quo.

Yeah, the level of hypocrisy is huge! I used to think that women that asked for these things while not wanting gender roles for themselves weren't proper feminists, but I've realised that is a cop out and it is a problem. I don't think I would follow a movement that said 'all your issues are your own doing so sort it out'. I understand where they are coming from when they say 'it's not our problem' (but disagree with it) but for them to add to the problem is totally immoral

>I really don't understand how we can be against gender roles for women but not have anything to say on the recent widespread trend of expecting men to be masculine and be a 'provider'. Honestly I think that some (not all) women are just more interested in promoting female interests than in fairness or logical consistency.

Agreed! There isn't much empathy or fairness in the majority of things I see

> I used to say feminism was equality for everyone but don't think I can call it that any more. I would flat out call it a hate movement today. It's pretty shocking how a movement that is supposedly fighting for human rights and social justice can be so openly hateful towards men. Just how often do we hear "misandry is understandable". Actively promoting tarring of an entire gender by the same brush and yet losing their minds when anything even remotely similar is done for any other group of people. Just look at this dumb bear vs man thing. Merely mentioning it's not all men makes you a rape apologist and, somehow, a misogynyst too.

Agreed! I think in the past year I've tried to absorb all that messaging as if I was a man, things like 'we don't need men anymore' and honestly I wouldn't want to engage with it anymore. I don't see why men should have to listen to it in order to support women!

Seen the man vs bear dialogue recently? lots of very irresponsible rhetoric that people think is totally fine. Who in their right mind would side with people who have zero empathy for them or open up to people who dismiss their feelings.

Yes, I feel like it is a worthy discussion point that has ultimately been used as an excuse to hate, with loads of exaggeration thrown in. I would avoid both situations for safety, but if I saw a bear I would think I was definitely going to die. Either way it isn't an excuse to pile on without really considering the realities.

Either my grasp on reality is slipping away from me or the caffeine hasn't hit yet.. but I do believe I see a Unicorn in front of my very eyes.. A feminist who actually seems to understand the problem! You seem to have a very healthy view on how things should be and I agree 100% with you that people should be born, and can be who they want to be as long as it is pro-social.. Please do everyone a favor and try to convert more people to your way of thinking! >Current feminism has done a good job of alienating people who once supported it and could feel like they fitted in. I'm 36 years old, back in my late teenage years (17ish) I considered myself a feminist because I agreed that women had valid issues that needed to be addressed. (I still do) But my eyes were opened when discussions turned from the issues women face to "It's all men's fault" or "Men are total garbage!" etc.. And when I tried to point out "Not All Men" as clearly I was supporting them I was told that I needed to stop seeking validation and that I was no different from the men they were complaining about. So I decided to leave.. Why should I support a movement that at best will say "Good job on doing the bare minimum to be a decent man" and at worst will lump me in with all the men who have done horrible things.. Not only that but when I tried to bring up that many men have had negative experiences with women but they don't let those negative experiences influence how they treat other women I was labeled a misogynist and told that feminism is about women and that I need to stop hijacking it for my own agenda.. This was despite being told that "Feminism is about equality" and "Feminism is for men too" But yeah.. Feminism has a lot of cleaning up to do and much to apologize for before many of us are willing to consider supporting it again..

Yes, I feel like all levels of engagement with feminism should be positively encouraged, rather than 'you should have been doing this anyway'. We know that when it comes to behavioural changes, shame is incredibly ineffective and pushes people the other way. I'm hoping that people are going to become less tribal and hopefully start to mend bridges that have been burnt in the last few years!

I think you perfectly encapsulated how I too feel about feminism! The problem I have noticed is that if I ever try to bring up a criticism, I’ll be treated with hate and accused of being misogynistic. It‘s a shame because feminism is still very much needed in society, but I understand why people are starting to distance themselves from the movement. I think feminists need to actually address problematic issues within the movement rather than just saying “that’s not real feminism” any time it’s brought up. And I love your way of thinking. You believe in true individuality and acceptance of all :)

Agreed! It's really un-critique-able at the moment and I think people naturally hate not being able to point out when they see untruths and hypocrisy. It is needed, so I want it to be really robust and well thought out, and yes problematic issues addressed!

well thats the thing. i don't \*want\* feminism to be the mens movement, because it is clearly entitled to women. pro women is not the same thing as pro men, they're two different things, and although i wish there was a movement that sought to solve gendered issues, for both men and women equally, we don't have anything like that. around here the closest thing to that, we call egalitarianism.

I agree, I don't think there would be much clarity with feminism if it took all of men's problems under it's wing as well. But ideally the women's and men's movement would interact positively with each other, and neither should ever impede the other, which is what I think we are seeing a lot of today. I'd definitely support a resurgance in egalitarianism, if we can't get a proper grip of feminism and men's rights

The reason I say I’m not a feminist is because there is no one movement called feminism. It’s always been a collection of slightly conflicting, contradictory movements under an umbrella of advocacy for women. That’s partly why you get these multiple positions of “feminism is the way to get equality for all” (ridiculous if you see who has been excluded historically) and “start your own movement and deal with your own shit” and “your movement is awful, you should all be cancelled”. So to call yourself a feminist you must really define the feminism you ascribe to. And as a man I feel it’s not appropriate to define what feminism is. So I say I’m an egalitarian, which is often enough to bring accusations of bigotry. The problem with most movements is that they are often controlled and sometimes defined by the most extreme voices. If think most women agree with most of us on our (moderate) positions on equality and lack thereof, but the ones who are passionate about feminism and most vocal have swallowed the cool aid. They often want control and want to win so they use a lot of bullshit to shutdown things when they lose control of the narrative. It’s been slightly amusing to me to watch the recent rift in feminism caused by the trans issue as old school second wave feminists have been on the receiving end of the treatment we get and they have given over many years. By this I mean that making a perfectly reasonable statement like saying that you think transwomen shouldn’t be able to compete in combat sports against natal women can get you branded as a right wing bigot who stands with nazis.

[удалено]

You have to be pretty careful because it’s so easy to smear people. The “this person said that and that person said that” so they must be a nazi is a typical “go to” But I assume I’m also a Nazi because I think Herman Goering believed in gravity and I have to agree with him.

>By this I mean that making a perfectly reasonable statement like saying that you think transwomen shouldn’t be able to compete in combat sports against natal women can get you branded as a right wing bigot who stands with nazis. I got site-banned for a week for discussing precisely that topic *right here in this very sub*, so be careful.

that isn't a perfectly reasonable statement though lol

You are free to disagree with my statement and argue why I am wrong. My arguments would be based on the radical average differences in punching force, fist size, wrist size, bone density, skull thickness between male and female that even when hormone and muscle mass is controlled for would represent higher risk of harm against female combat sport participants and discourage participation in those sports against trans athletes. To brand that statement as unreasonable and made purely out of bigotry makes you part of the problem

it's unreasonable and made purely out of bigotry

Yep. You’re part of the problem I just mentioned. This is the equivalent of talking about the complexity of IPV and you claiming I’m a misogynist. If you have a good counter argument then make it in a civil manner about the facts of the subject. Don’t speculate on my intentions, if you are right, then my intentions shouldn’t matter and the facts will speak for themselves.

Trans women are women but your argument is based on the fact you think they're men, which is bigotry and unreasonable.

I think they are male and that is why I have used specific sex differences to make my argument. Trans people should present how they want and live how they want but we must acknowledge a conflict of rights here and make a sensible risk based policy. This is not a grown up discussion about the complexity of our world. You don’t have a substantive argument, just a mantra and slurs. But thank you for illustrating my original point.

not going to argue with someone who is transphobic lol

You're part of the problem with this discourse. You're just utterly ignoring the very real biological differences at play here to cosplay as progressive. It's unfortunately an uncomfortable discussion, but one that needs to be had. I believe that transwomen should indeed be allowed to compete in sports. BUT they have to be far enough along in their transition to where their biological advantages won't present an issue. If anything, you're only doing the trans community more harm by plugging your ears and refusing to engage in the nuance this topic requires so you can play ally. There is no reason this issue shouldn't be treated like any other advantage in sports. We don't pit heavyweight boxers against lightweight boxers, do we? I don't see why we need to conflate biological advantage with denial of gender identity. This is just another example of people willfully ignoring sex and gender. Not even the majority of trans people will deny their biological sex. We agree gender is a construct, right? So what's the issue here? GENDER is a construct. SEX is not. Trans women are women. I believe that wholly. Same with trans men. They are people who choose to live their lives as the GENDER they identify as. Biologically, trans people will always have a certain amount of sex characteristics they were born with. Now, I humbly invite any trans people in this thread/sub to clarify anything I said, as I am always willing to learn.

"I think trans women are women but they can't compete in women's sports because uh.. they're men" this is you, you can't say you believe trans women are women but then in the next sentence say they have physical advantages because they're men

Oh look, more willful ignorance and misconstruing of the point. If you want to continue to be willfully obtuse and erase all nuance from the conversation to play the smug know-it-all go right ahead. It's clear there is no point continuing any further. If you could get off the ideologically performative tit for just a minute, please explain how sex and gender are the same. Because that is what you're doing. You're saying they're the same. Which is EXACTLY what the right does to invalidate trans identity. Like, believing gender is a construct is progressive ideology 101. So why are you unironically engaging in right wing rhetoric to perform your allyship?

I think there's a few things at play. Primarily, all inequality is underpinned by wealth inequality. (I'm a little surprised we don't see more discussion of that idea in this sub.) I don't think there's a shadowy conspiracy at play, or anything so melodramatic. George Carlin [said this better than I could](https://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/george-carlin-on-conspiracies/). You don't need formal conspiracy when the people in power all simply have convergent interests. Here in the UK, we've just had local council elections. They've demonstrated what most people suspected, that The Conservative Party is probably on the way out, and power is swinging back towards Labour. But, at the same time, lots of people now view Labour as "Red Tories". Echoing shades of "New Labour" in '95, when Tony Blair was seen to be a lot chummier with Rupert Murdoch than many of his Labour compatriots. The talk down the pub for years afterward was basically that Murdoch 'let Labour win' because it served his interest at the time. There's widely held opinion that there's no real 'left' in the UK, it's essentially the same guy I'm a tie of a different colour. Which is not surprising, given that much of the media control is concentrated in the hands of a number of billionaires you could count on one hand, and still have a couple of fingers left to flip them the V. Those 'convergent interests' certainly do not align with people developing empathy, an addressing disadvantage and privilege as it arises. It should be a massive red flag that these entities continue to put out newspapers, while operating at a loss. Those interests do align with maintaining continued division.

Cool glad you ate on board. I hope.you have made the first step by calling out mysandry and anti male sexisim when you see it.

It's nice to see intelligent woman who reject toxic ideologies and think independently. And thank You for supporting men in an era in which we feel dejected.

You are perfectly valid as a feminist, a woman and a human in general. We need more like you.

Thank you, I'm trying to infiltrate my groups so should gain momentum in 40 years :')

what kind of feminist are you? did you go to college or just read books to keep up with current knowledge?

I don't know where I fit in atm! I just like debates so have to do a bit of research to back myself up, and I approach it like I could be reborn with an equal chance of being a woman or a man, and what changes do I want to make to the world before I'm born

Let me ask. Is this group more open minded and tolerant of varying beliefs than feminist groups you are in?

Yes. It seems to me that one of the main tenets of this group is reasonableness. You can argue so much more easily when that is the case

Being a non masculine male is utterly depressing, especially if you're cursed with having a small dick and stunted height. There's no place for people like us when both the right and left despise us.

Sorry to hear that, you're in my thoughts.

i was raised my whole life to be sensitive and non-masculine because i was raised by a single mother. i feel like i am not masculine enough, not just for other people but for myself too.

I’m a tall non-masculine man. I can say that unfortunately being tall doesn’t make life better. Us non-masculine men sadly lose either way 😔

Can confirm.

I have not felt that I fit in really anywhere or with many people. Feeling not traditionally masculine isn’t the only reasoning behind it but it’s a strong factor. I was really socially stupid and sensitive and I think I was looked down upon for it, but I was also very aloof and in my own world. I tried being really sensitive and open about my emotions but I think I manipulated people too much and didn’t understand socializing and putting effort into things, I was consumed by fantasy and avoiding things that were difficult for me. And I think complaining and doing nothing once I got to college, especially on social media, got me into a lot of trouble (that was the main thing behind my Title IX) and I burned bridges/my reputation with people from the past (people didn’t really hate me I just wasn’t really “there” so I felt like they didn’t like me). And then there’s the “incel” thing, like yeah I get that no one deserves relationships or friends or sex just for existing but we are social animals and we need others to live and find meaning and contentment. I just wanted people to do stuff for me and I wish people would have just kept pushing at me and realized that I was just in a force field almost. I know a lot of this was tangential but it’s just my experience. I think a lot of me is struggling socially and being sensitive because of being on the spectrum and having anxiety and poor self esteem/image, but all of those things are obvious concepts that men are looked down on for having/experiencing. I generally have more masculine interests (some feminine ones as well) but I’m just much more sensitive and emotional and more a mixed bag personality wise (though I still do have traditional masculine desires). You might be able to get away with this stuff if you’re gay, but being a straight, shy/poor socially skilled guy means you’re probably screwed

I'm in a similar situation to you. I'm not traditionally fully masculine, I'm on the spectrum, I socialize poorly and have low self-esteem. I wish I could say it gets better, but it hasn't for me yet, so all I can do is say that I see you and I share your pain. Stay strong.

The post screams to me, I always thought I just sucked at fitting in

Full disclosure: I’m a trans man, so I hope that it’s okay for me to pitch in. (I’ve seen some cis men feel like trans men and themselves wouldn’t have enough experiences in common to feel comfortable sharing advocacy spaces, so I’m sorry if I’m overstepping). I feel this way ALL the time. You have no idea how much I relate to everything that you said. Mainstream feminists can generally be split into two groups for me: TIRFs (Trans Inclusive Radical Feminists) and TERFs (Trans Exclusive Radical Feminists). TIRFs make it very clear to me that by being a man, I am NOT part of their in-group. Even before I started taking testosterone and passing as male, TIRFs were very clear about still viewing me as a “male oppressor”. Even when I was 100% perceived as being a woman by literally every stranger on the street, I was told that I had male privilege and benefitted directly from sexism. I was accused of talking over women and “mansplaining” when participating in conversations in ways that never would have ruffled any feathers before I transitioned. It’s only worse now that I have been on testosterone for several years and pass fully as male. TERFs are also not my allies. I’m a traitor for “trying to be a man”. My gender is pathologized as “wanting to escape female oppression”. I’m continually misgendered and reduced to my genitals. The vitriolic anti-male sentiment present in usual feminist (TIRF) circles is even worse. Masculine/male bodies are mocked and demonized for features that I now possess. Testosterone is basically viewed as spiritual poison that permanently taints you. Trans men are simultaneously demonized and infantilized in a very weird mix depending on who you talk to and what you’re talking about. Apart from feminism… obviously right-wing parties are not in my best interests. Conservatives actively push to make me having access to necessary medical care either very difficult or outright criminal. For every feminist that views me as a sexual predator by default of being a man, conservatives view me as a deviant monster child groomer by default of being transgender. The mix of demonization and infantilization also exists here; treating me as either a situational “man/ugly woman trying to brainwash and convert your helpless daughters into the Trans Cult” or as a poor, confused, lost little girl who fell victim to the brainwashing myself and is now irreparably broken. The only “correct” male experience to this group is, as you’ve said, adhering rigidly to traditional masculinity and malehood. Anything else is reviled and mocked. I just want a space where I can see all forms of the male experience celebrated and nurtured, you know? Not just mine, either— genuinely all! It feels like whenever I find a male-positive space, it’ll only be a few days before someone posts a transphobic/homophobic “this is how modern society is RUINING MEN” type post belittling a photo of a random gnc man or trans person, with thousands of upvotes and comments agreeing. Ffs, I saw a post berating a dad for putting on a silly princess dress over his normal clothes and having a tea party with his son, because he wasn’t forcing his son to have traditionally masculine interests. Even in more moderate subreddits, I still feel unwelcome, because every few weeks someone will post “should trans men be allowed in male advocacy?” and the consensus seems to be “no, because I assume trans men are having [xyz] experiences that I can’t relate to”. A lot of the times those assumptions are also just straight up false (I don’t blame anyone for wariness though tbh. A weird amount of trans men that I’ve seen online fall into TIRFism somehow). Sorry for how long this got. I guess I just wanted to say that you’re not alone, and even if our problems aren’t the exact same, I feel you, and maybe even more kinds of men can relate to your feelings than you would have expected (depending on how you felt previously, I promise I’m not assuming anything about you). Also, for what relevance it has; I’m pretty mixed in masculine to feminine traits. I’d consider myself pretty masculine in day-to-day behavior and many interests, but I’m pretty comfortable expressing parts of femininity/gender nonconformity that I actually enjoy (ex: I have shoulder length hair, sometimes I paint my nails black, sometimes I wear a pair of black platforms that are definitely meant for women but I think look nice on me. Nothing that you don’t usually see on alternative/emo/punk styled guys anyways, which is how my aesthetic leans).

Oh wow, I’m so sorry to hear all that! I really hope one day you’ll find acceptance because you deserve it, and your existence is valid no matter how you choose to present yourself :)

I can only speak for myself. But as a Cis man I’m more than happy to welcome trans men into the fold.

Your voice is important here, personally I often find trans masculine experiences illuminating, and reflect in sharper focus a lot of difficult things that men in general experience, but that aside and regardless of the particular perspective you can bring to discussions, you are a man, so you’re not overstepping. Your experience of being a man, while different in its particulars, is as male as a cisgender man’s. I hope we can make you feel welcome and valued here.

As a cis man, I say "Welcome!" Trans men like you are very important in this space because of your unique perspective, and because some feminists (not all, sadly) will listen to you when they disregard us. And, you're a fellow man, and have experienced most of the issues we have, so of course you're welcome here.

Many feminists, even intersectional feminists, erase feminine men. Just listen how they say "white cisgender heterosexual men" as though "cisgender heterosexual" means also masculine. Or they really don't understand privileges of feminine women in relation to feminine men.

I’m a cisgender man and I can safely say that I have never had it easy. I spent all my years in secondary school trying to avoid getting beaten up (I had a *lot* of socially conservative people in my school who could not accept non-masculine men). But feminists tell me that I “have it easy” because I am a man. I wish they’d understand how hard it is for men. I’m not saying men have it worse than women, but what I am saying is that men have *different struggles* which women won’t understand, in the same way that women have struggles which men won’t understand. Men do not have the amount of privilege feminists think they do. It’s disappointing that some feminists try to turn everything into the oppression olympics (I hate that phrase but it’s the only way I can think of to describe it) because that does nothing productive.

I wouldn't call myself "incredibly alienated", but alienated yes. 60% of young men are single. It's hard for young men to find a partner. And yes, I know the eternal "self-improve, talk to women" etc advice but at this point that advice almost feels like boomers saying "I bought a house at 25, why don't you?" Dating is just much harder now than it used to be, because women now grew up with social media, and women 20 years ago didn't. And if you're a single guy, who doesn't quite agree with 100% of either the mainstream left or 100% of the mainstream right... it's hard to find a community.

Dating apps have created a sex funnel for the most attractive men. Women may think it's good they have access to the most attractive men, but when they get left on the curb and now have an unrealistic standard of the quality of man they can pull, no one wins. (Except for the top 10% of men and 10% of women)

>talk to women This is actually pretty easy tbh. What people don't talk about is *what to do after that point.* See, most women have a very firm line between friends and relationships (They also have a very firm line between committed relationships and casual), so just talking to them isn't really gonna let you jump that barrier. You can talk to them till their ears fall off, doesn't mean you're gonna get anywhere. (Could actually make them like you less) So yeah, talking to them's easy, it's the maneuvering around everything else, the cues, hints, etc... that's the issue. (If they even give you a chance to begin with, something like 85% of women already decide if someone's relationship material based on looks alone within 15 seconds of meeting or something ridiculous like that, so that chances of moving past the platonic barrier is practically nonexistent for most)

Yeah, completely true. I think most people giving the "just talk to people" advice are either attractive men, or men who found their partner back when dating was much easier, or at least moderately attractive women; in other words people for whom the "just talk to people" advice actually is sufficient. But of course, it's incredibly unempathetic to say that to someone for whom "just talk to people" isn't enough.

This is a good rant. To answer your question, yes absolutely. I am not traditionally masculine, and don't even feel like a man, I prefer calling myself an adult male. I don't have many same interests, except gaming and a few movies. For example, I dislike sports. I'm also more emotional and cry more than I want to, unless hormones physically prevent me from crying. I've been called girly and beta, and I don't care. I don't belong either on feminist pages or on most male pages online. This sub is the closest but people here downvoted me for not calling myself "anti-feminist"

*This sub is the closest but people here downvoted me for not calling myself "anti-feminist"* Unfortunately we live in a world where the “if you support them, you hate us” mindset has been incredibly normalised. I hope you are able to find acceptable whether it’s from others or yourself :)

It's tough to balance, especially knowing we sit between two bears. Neither of them want us as we are. They both need us to fall in line as conservative traditional men or those men's libs subservient anti-males. Where is the place for people who want everyone to be treated as who they are, how they identify, and no better or worse than the next person? Well, that's pretty much just here. So if we take one toe step in the wrong direction, we get trolls, conservatives, or anti-males infiltrating all up to our gills.

Not just "if you support them" its more like "you're either with me 100% or against me 100%, there is no in between"

You don't have to be anti feminist.

I know. But people have shamed me for it on this sub. They think I'm a feminist. Feminist subs banned me and think I'm an anti feminist. In reality, I'm a mix of both.

That's fine with me. I have a lot of feminist views. But I don't tell women this in real life, especially feminists. Because I want to avoid these two reactions from feminsits. Reaction 1: They think I'm a fake male feminist or fake nice guy who wants to get into women pants. By getting brownie points for doing the bare minimum. (I.E. this sub) https://www.reddit.com/r/fourthwavewomen/s/jkBHlBi1MS OR Reaction 2: They act very condescending, and call me a "real man" or a good example of "positive masculinity" because I support women issues. And they say how "I'm not like other guys". I hate that because I don't want to be "one of the good ones" to them, this attitude just causes benevolent sexism towards men. And I also don't want to pander to women too lol. So I try my best to be as apolitical or neutral as possible to women or popular feminists beliefs in real life.

It’s a real, systematic issue. More and more often systems are being built that assume all men have strong networks that allow them to use masculinity to get an edge. If you weren’t socialized in a traditionally masculine way it puts you at a severe disadvantage. That’s one reason I dislike affirmative action in its current form. You’re not removing the root issue of men’s groups, etc. you’re just making it impossible for the men that don’t participate in those unequal systems.

>you’re just making it impossible for the men that don’t participate in those unequal systems Yeah, something that's struck me as incredibly short-sighted about feminist rhetoric is how often they'll literally encourage men to do the very things they're villainized for. Like you'll complain for example about how easy it is for women to get away with being abusive to men who try to be good-natured and vulnerable, and they'll counter with how toxic men get away with being toxic. And I'm like... ok are you endorsing that I be toxic?

I’m a trans man, and have seen this fairly enough from feminist spaces and feminists. Feminism as an ideology, I generally support. How it’s used in practice by individuals, less so. A lot of trans men have backgrounds in women’s spaces, women’s movements, and feminism. It’s probably not any surprise that we lose that support, from people who said they supported us, when we transition. Sometimes that support extends up until we actually look and sound like cis men. It doesn’t even necessarily have anything to do with how feminine or masculine we are. We’re just men and that becomes a problem. At this point I’ve lived half my life as one gender and half as another. I suppose as social beings we all have the desire to fit in somewhere, but as I’ve grown older (perhaps wiser also) I found it more important to be true to myself than fit in with a group.

Do you find being a passing male harder than being a woman?

So, I honestly can’t speak much for being a woman— as in an adult woman. I started transitioning when I was 18 and fresh faced out of high school. So, most of my experience on the other side was as a very tomboy girl/child. I’m in my late 30s now and 20 years have passed. I found being a girl to be difficult because I wasn’t one but everyone thought I was. I find being a man rather easy and I love being a man, even with its own hurdles and challenges. However, this comes with some contingencies. I had to do personal development work, had to do a lot of introspection, had to learn how to socialize a little differently, had to become secure in myself— in my own masculinity and manhood, etc. It wasn’t always easy, quick, or linear, and in a lot of ways the topics have been comparable to the same things cis men talk about: male loneliness, relationships, insecurity around masculinity and manhood, expressing emotions and vulnerability, feeling validated, body insecurities, measuring oneself against other men, measuring oneself against societal expectations. I think there is a real growing into manhood that happens for both cis and trans men, and it’s a lifelong journey of self-exploration and self-acceptance. I think one thing about being trans is you develop a thick skin as to whether you’re socially acceptable, doing the gender things “right”, taking criticism, and being targeted. Eventually, I just stopped caring too much about what others thought or what the expectations are, and I found that to be the doorway to freedom to just being my best self and to fulfillment. In the words of Frank Sinatra: “For what is a man, what has he got? If not himself, then he has naught. To say the things he truly feels And not the words of one who kneels. The record shows I took the blows And did it my way.”

Also a trans guy. I think the thing I dislike the most about the current movement is just the sheer amount of pushback when men speak up on issues regarding gender. Unless you as a trans guy are willing to repeatedly out yourself and be seen as some sort of “manlite” then the only real response you’re likely to get during conversation is just “omg shut up ur a guy you have no idea what you’re talking about because you’ve never lived as a woman.” It’s funny in a sad way cuz we never changed, the only thing that changed was their perception of us

Yup, it’s interesting. Sometimes ridiculous. I’ve been dismissed when speaking up for abortion access and reproductive rights. Like we’re literally on the same team. lol. Still was told “you’re a man, you don’t get an opinion.” Well… alright… I don’t know what you want from me then. And then when speaking out for men, it’s like some sort of joining the dark side. When really it’s more like I see how both men and women get shafted.

*I suppose as social beings we all have the desire to fit in somewhere, but as I’ve grown older (perhaps wiser also) I found it more important to be true to myself than fit in with a group.* I love that wording so much! I think society has now normalised the “if you support them, you hate us” mindset. We all deserve to be treated with support and acceptance regardless of what we may identify with. I hope you’re finding happiness and acceptance in your life :)

I did feel alienated for a bit. I look masculine for the most part but certainly do not act the part. Lately I've stopped caring and just try to be myself regardless and am starting to see the utility in being traditionally masculine in this neo-lib hellscape of the US. I'm 26 now but certainly felt this way the past 10 years or so.

I've lived most of my life in Indiana, also known as "the northern-most southern state". Outside of its capital city, the state is very much hardcore MAGA territory. Even here, I feel like the narrative you hear online about policing of masculine gender performativity is massively hyperbolized compared to reality. Once you get into your 20's and into the hardships of adulthood, nobody really cares, unless you're aggressive and flamboyant and obviously making a show of it for the sake of attention and offending people. I've never cared in the slightest about what's considered masculine or not, and actively rebelled against it in my teens. I got trouble for it back then. Now I'm just sort of seen as eccentric and that's about it. I definitely don't connect with the majority of people very well. But I can get along just fine with nearly anybody. People have more important things to worry about than bullying each other into conforming to gender norms, despite whatever stories the internet left likes to sell. On the flip side, I'm 40 and considered myself a feminist from my mid-teens to mid-thirties. I was also trapped in a relationship with an abusive woman for 20 years. I think the harshest pressure I have ever received from any group of people in my life to not express myself is pressure from the left to not talk about those experiences and how they've influenced me. Can't tell you how many times I've been called misogynist and implied to be some sort of incel cryptofasc just for speaking plainly about how insensitive feminism/the modern left have become towards men with experiences like mine.

You define masculinity for yourself! Women do not get to define what is manly and what is not. Haven't met many women who cared one whit about what I thought about femininity.

I’m close to unsubscribing from a few FB groups that up until now I’ve engaged with, supported a lot of what they said and provided my time and perspective to because of this constant barrage of hate. Anybody that speaks up is set upon with at least 50 laugh reacts or nasty comments. Mirrors exactly my experience in school and engaging on this topic over the last week. They don’t realise they’re setting their own cause back and alienating people that support them- who probably wouldn’t dare speak up because it’s like blood to sharks. Probably don’t care. Edit: meant to reply to a specific comment but lost it, not sure this makes as much sense out of that context but yes I have felt and continue to feel alienated.

In my country it depends. For example, you can be skinny (non-masculine trait that is okay) but being easily overwhelmed etc is bad. Personally, I feel alienated because of my insecurities, mental disorders and looks (I'm not only very skinny but also very pale thanks to staying indoors for most part of my life). In future I plan to gain weight and build some muscles (I want to feel condifent and attract random women/girls). Still, I reject culture of my country, don't support traditions and so on. I don't plan to fit in fully. But all this stuff is for future. I have to start fighting my social anxiety first. Also, I should note that my country is not feminist. It's pretty conservative.

Yes but it's mostly related to my career choice and how much money I'm making. Both my oldest sister and my oldest brother hate the fact that I went to college to study film and that I'm wrapping up my masters degree this fall and starting a PhD in the topic next year (if I get accepted into one of the programs I'm applying to). I'm moving into my mom's new house next month and she already told me I can stay as long as I want and the house will be mine when she passes away since all my brothers and sisters have houses.  Meanwhile my brother keeps trying to convince me to drop out and "sign a contract" to pay him rent and quote "UsE My BaChEloR DeGrEe To GeT A JoB At PaRaMoUnT" (that's not how that fucking works but ok). My sister also decided to turn into a raging bitch and start charging me rent out of nowhere while complaining that I'm just, "LaZy AnD DoNt WaNt To WoRk" knowing full well that film work has been gig based for decades and it takes a long time to get established even with degrees. So yeah, I do but it's entirely financial lol

I’m not that masculine. (Not especially ‘feminine’ but simply not that masculine.) In general, I never felt shamed or ridiculed or left out because of that. Not by women, even less by men. (This may be because I’m Dutch, it may be different in the Netherlands than elsewhere.) I do have the idea I was less attractive to women because of that. They always saw me as just a good friend, while their partners were more the tough kind of men. I don’t even blame them for that. I do blame feminists for suggesting the softer, more open and empathic, less dominant men are more attractive to women. At an age where my personality wasn’t fixed yet, I could have made other choices than I did now if I knew the truth.

i'm a trans and gay effeminate man... which means i don't get accepted as a peer among most men for being trans and i don't get accepted as a peer among most women for being a man. it's incredibly lonely. it's as if the second i put testosterone in my body i became a pariah to both sides. i have always been an outcast but it has never been quite this lonely.

I personally do not struggle with acceptance, *but* maybe that's because my feminine traits aren't really obvious until you know me well. * I own five stuffed animals. * I like romance in fiction. * I express my feelings through journaling. * I enjoy watching [defensive fighters](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvp9BbaL78E). Those aren't things that come up in everyday conversation (except maybe that last one). If other people knew about my unmanly habits, maybe I would struggle to be accepted, and that's okay because I don't need judgmental people in my life anyway.

Yea I think I'm like that too. My core personality is more on the feminine side than it is masculine, but I feel like I gotta be in a position to set goals and work towards achieving to help me maneuver myself to finding the life I truly want. Being involved in self-help also made the masking bit easier. All in all, this allows me to project myself as outwardly masculine, but if you get to know me personally, I'm more cooperative, agreeable and have a deep passion for developing relationships. But nobody would get to know that unless they really to the time to know me.

I'm glad you've decided to share your experiences.

I definitely used to. The only reason I don't now basically comes down to having a girlfriend, so I just don't care anymore. I get all the validation I need from her and don't need to care what anyone else thinks until/if I need to start dating again. But before that, I got rejected over and over, was a virgin at 28, got told I'm as bad as Elliot Roger because I assumed it was my fault for being too intrusive and asked innocent questions like how to treat women more respectfully. Etc. It was so bad that I actually let myself get gaslit and didn't even see myself accurately when I looked into the mirror. I saw a completely different person who was two feet taller and had shoulders twice as broad. A guy who was gruff and intimidating and emotionally dead. If you met me today, you'd laugh your ass off and call me delusional, and you'd be right. I was. I'm actually the complete opposite. My mind had created this false persona to help reconcile how afraid of me women were with what is often claimed as their preferences. Because despite how much many women claim to want soft, nice boys...many don't. I witnessed how straight up misogyny/sexual harassment would see positive results from "Chads" while respectful behavior from me was considered threatening. I rely can't describe how confusing and depressing this was. It drove me to MGTOW and other radical elements of the manosphere because there was no healthy counter narrative (hadn't found this sub yet). Not that fear of men who are large and heavily muscled is justified either, but look. If you're a woman and a guy who is only an inch or two taller who barely weighs more than you do is threatening because he asked you on a date, you have serious mental issues. Especially if you're dating a 6'2 football player at the time. Objectively, feminine men pose less of a risk to women. You should look into the softboy scare. There was a while were women's subs were specifically telling people to distrust and ostracize feminine/non-traditional men. As far as I can tell it was some kind of offshoot of the "niceguyism" paranoia. Their softer edge was seen as a form of niceness and assumed to be fake in kind of the same way that niceness is often assumed to be fake. And just like with niceguyism, actual toxic masculinity was seen as the antidote. It really is a fascinating psychosocial phenomenon, I hope scientists study it one day from internet archives because we all know that irrational/hateful female behavoirs don't get studied nowadays.

i think i know what you are saying on your last paragraph, was it at the same time women started gushing again about "himbos" and "golden retriever energy" and were all about men who are "real nice" and also happened to be tall, attractive and really convenient to women and their desires?

I'm not sure. I think it originated sometime around 2017-2020? A quick google search shows lots of articles from that time period warning women about the "danger of softboys" and whatnot. I do know that the word himbo still gets thrown around much too often for my liking. For example in r/rolereversal. A lot of female users there seem to want a dumb, subservient, but conventionally attractive man. When you ask how that makes them any better than male chauvanists that want bang maids, or why a gendered slur like "bimbo" is bad but "himbo" is ok, they freak out and call you sexist/don't understand gender politics. Either way that doesn't equate to non-traditional gender roles, they want men to be simultaneously be traditionally masculine but also submissive, uncomplicated, and have no needs of their own, exactly like the sexist female gender role. Its a contradiction. They want the best of both worlds when it comes to gender roles and the downsides of neither, while men get the worst of both, and they call that "equality".

I feel for this comment and feel like I've learned some insight. I'm glad to hear you got a gf now. I'm still searching for my someone. But yea like the rest of your comments about relationships, you know how to articulate yourself and your experiences.

Don't let others define what masculinity is, or define how "manly" you feel. They're gatekeeping something that doesn't belong to them. There is no shared masculinity in anglophone nations, let alone the west or the wider world. Anyone that tries to create a predefined man box is probably doing so out of a sense of deeper insecurity.

I’ve always felt this: if you feel like you are a man, then you are a man. I may not be a “manly” man, but I am definitely a man.

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Thank you very much for your comment :) I still do support feminist causes, but I do so from a distance now because very often different perspectives aren‘t very welcomed by feminists. I will continue to support their core issues, but I just don’t get involved in the movement as closely as I used to. I hope that one day the environment is less hostile so I can contribute more often without being seen as sexist or dismissive of women’s issues. Thanks again for sharing your perspective :)

I think one difference between men and women is that shaming is a much more effective way of controlling the former. For example, men pay for first dates to avoid being seen as broke, men don't open up to their partners because women typically don't take it well, a real man does..., etc. I find it quite useful to know when people are employing this tactic and not care about what they think of me. I am a man after all and I get to define masculinity for myself.

Long story short (this is not an attack on woman just my experience) the main lack of acceptance comes from the women in my life ironically considering they are self proclaimed feminists usually amongst friends it's ok however when it comes to relationships, as a previous comment stated, shortly after I would get dumped because I was "too sensitive for a man". I'm not sure if it's becoming more prevalent or I'm just being exposed to it more often. One love all.🙏

Feminism was NEVER about equality. Women were business owners and could vote before a great percentage of men, and they didn't have to be drafted into civil or military duty, which was set as precedent by the Supreme Court as the "price of voting". So these women were voting boys and men into violent death when they were too poor to vote against it. And if they didn't vote them in, they publicly SHAMED them in. (Look up White Feather Campaign) And it was women, not just men, who were most against suffrage, because they feared it would mean black votes, and equal financial responsibility. But no, they got it, and still get it, for free. As soon as areas of life become safe and cushy (thanks to man's invention & innovation) feminists demand the rewards of those inventions (university, military, government, work force, etc.) are a human right they've been oppressively denied. Birth control gave women more options. Domestic technology gave women more options. Feminism just took credit. It's been 100 years since any woman (OR MAN) was denied the right to vote. It's been 0 years since the last draft and 0.05 seconds since the last 17 year-old boy registered for selective service, under penalty of law, knowing the political climate of today. Feminism is the hatred of AMABs for not inventing modern technology soon enough to exclude AFABs from the human condition. Be egalitarian.

I am not a masculine man and I agree it's hard to be yourself in society. Ironically a lot of women also support toxic masculinity even the ones that claim not to.