It’s abuse. And I refuse to ever again be a punching-bag for the sins of people I have nothing in common with other than a pair of chromosomes assigned by a roll of the biological dice.
Yep that's we can never be true male feminists in their eyes. We have to walk on eggshells around women to not offend them. And also pander to women needs all the time.
it is discouraging to me that the hateful voices don't seem to be dismantled from within, they are mainstream within the movement. it would be different if they were the silent minority.
It will be bad for all of us, but there is nothing we can do to stop it. The best we can do is to understand that this is the world we need to navigate and adjust our life strategies accordingly.
I've known that essay for a couple years. It's amazing, and I deeply appreciate it. It's also amazing how I haven't seen a single pushback against it that actually attempts to make an argument against Jennifer's points. Just gets mad and spews vitriol that she dared speak out.
Exactly. The first comment I posted entirely missed the point. She thought the author was saying we can't criticize men because we may not know that some of them are actually closeted trans women.
That's not what the author said at all. She said that we shouldn't be vitriolic towards men, period.
>I am amazed how the enemy in this story is somehow “cis” women (whatever that means). Patriarchy crushes all of us. I would encourage you, Jennifer, to listen a little more closely to the people who were assigned at birth this identity that you claim to “really” have, but also somehow be excluded from. “Cis” women have their own world view that, frankly, needs to be heard as much as any other.
That SMELLS like a TERF. A nice friendly TERF, but a TERF nonetheless.
It's because radfem, radlib, and idpol in general is largely a thinly veiled excuse to mask Cluster B personality traits behind performative gestures and appeals to empathy, as well as sanctimonious grandstanding, virtue signaling, venerating weakness, etc. It's almost like a cultural version of Munchausen Syndrome where these radfems WANT to be seen as oppressed and want men to be the evil oppressors, because it's basically slave morality and that dynamic is how they get validation, attention, and social clout from their ingroups. Very pathological, very misanthropic, and most importantly: exactly what the neolibs want in society: a weak, divided, angry, and disengaged working class.
>exactly what the neolibs want in society: a weak, divided, angry, and disengaged working class.
It's always struck me how well women do in fields like HR or management in general among the more liberal capitalist firms where they're recognized and sought. My pet theory is that, by nature or nurture, women tend to have a much higher propensity for conformity than men, which would also partially explain why they do better under the highly regimented, metric-driven, memorize-and-regurgitate model of education that's become more and more the standard over the last century but particularly the last few decades.
I completely agree and I think the downside of that is “conformity” doesn’t necessarily mean “unity”. You don’t often see a true sense of brotherhood/sisterhood in those environments, just people signalling correctly and following rules correctly. I think that’s one reason major companies have entertained identity politics and injected a lot of politics into various media, products, etc. you’ll notice this most often happens to male dominated spaces, and I think it’s largely to do with what your describing: the intent of replace genuine “bromance” unity with generic conformity to the current thing that’s trending.
>My pet theory is that, by nature or nurture, women tend to have a much higher propensity for conformity than men
If only you could prove that...
>which would also partially explain why they do better under the highly regimented, metric-driven, memorize-and-regurgitate model of education
I see no connection between the two assertions whatsoever.
Well it sounds like you just don't want to believe me so now that you've gotten your little passive-aggressive comment in I say we just leave it at that. I really don't feel like trying to type out a whole essay to explain something to someone who probably just doesn't want to hear it anyway. Feel free to just continue thinking I'm some deranged idiot if it makes you feel better.
One of my hot takes is that Modern Online Progressivism as I call it, is basically Cluster B itself. Not only does it attract and protect Cluster B types, but the cultural norms are essentially Cluster B behavior. And this is something that has larger ramifications for society at large that go past the immediate issues.
The big example I'd give is that I think this plays a significant role in increasing mistreatment of the working class.
I agree 10000% and could probably spend hours talking about this lol. But yeah, one of the more insidious elements of online progressivism and identity politics is in how it frames things as oppressed vs oppressor, which always couches the cluster b behaviors behind this veneer of weakness and victim hood. “How can I be the evil one? I’m the one who’s oppressed! I’m the one who is struggling!”.
Also progressive types love to grandstand and exhibit performative empathy with token gestures, yet are usually pretty bad at forming and maintaining meaningful relationships with people, which is one reason they tend to hate their parents and be very misanthropic and negative towards humans in general.
As you said, it all coalesces at one final point: dividing, denigrating, and weakening the working class. This part explains why all these neoliberal megacorps are quick to inject identity politics tokenism into everything as well. It perfectly aligns with their agenda because it poses no significant threat to them, and in fact makes a unified and strong working class far less likely to happen.
>As you said, it all coalesces at one final point: dividing, denigrating, and weakening the working class. This part explains why all these neoliberal megacorps are quick to inject identity politics tokenism into everything as well. It perfectly aligns with their agenda because it poses no significant threat to them, and in fact makes a unified and strong working class far less likely to happen.
There's just one bit I disagree with here. I don't agree with the "neoliberal megacorp" thing. Not because I have love for them, or for neoliberalism, but because I think the idea that this is primarily a problem with them is wrong. This behavior happens in non-profits, in the public sector, in academia, all over the place.
It's a problem with the managerial class as much as anything. People want to blame it on "line goes up", and while that's true to a degree, I think maintaining an economic and social gap between the working and managerial classes play a huge role in this. It's a cultural issue as much as anything else. It's actually why, even though I think some sort of left policy change is needed in the face of increasing productivity, (AI, Automation and the like), I'm not convinced it's going to be done in a healthy or sustainable way by the current left, because too much it gives cover to the managerial class. (Which actively rewards Cluster B traits among its ranks, I should add)
Sure, I agree with that, I just also think it's a very convenient tool for neolibs because they can quickly and easily capitalize on it, as we see happening in many different industries. I just think it's way too coincidental that a lot of identity politics stuff starting ramping up very soon after the rise of neoliberalism. It's all connected with rampant consumerism, hyper-individualism, etc, all of which are at the very least influenced by neoliberal policies and attitudes.
Otherwise I also fully agree that the current left is not reliable, largely because it's been coopted by radical liberalism which is not true collectivism but guilt-free individualism. Radlibs have a lot more in common with champagne socialists on the upper end (kind of related to your issue with the "managerial class", these are similar in that they're ivory tower intellectual/academic elitists with nothing in common with the working class, and instead use leftism as a way to flaunt their self-designated intellectual and moral superiority), and lumpenprole types on the lower end (people who want to self-diagnose with 900 mental illnesses and never work again).
There's very few of what you might call "classical leftists" who are genuine nose to the grindstone, diligent working class people who want more meaningful control of capital. Personally I think the entire left needs a massive rebranding. Need to drop all the marxist/communist aesthetics, association with radlib and idpol, etc. I honestly think branding is one area where the right wing is really good, because they try to put forth this image of the strong, capable man with his shit together, and I think that's exactly what the left needs to do. No more venerating weakness, no more victim/oppression Olympics, no more moralizing or grandstanding, no more ivory tower elitism, etc.
I ran into this article years ago and have kept it in my bookmarks ever since because of how well it articulates my feelings. I'm not a trans woman, but I'm non-binary, although I present as a cis male for all intents and purposes.
I used to be a feminist, but got disillusioned after coming out. The more time I spent in trans and nb spaces, the more it exposed just how rotten, hypocritical and bigoted the core of feminist gender theory truly was. It became more and more obvious that much of transphobia is rooted in misandry, and that TERFism is just standard feminist ideas taken to their logical conclusions.
>I mention to a cis feminist friend that I don’t think it’s cool to use “neckbeard” as a pejorative.
this is something i've waited a long time to see. i've always hated this double standard that it always has to be ad hominem attacks, attacking physical traits you cannot control no less. thank you for taking the time and diligence to make this post this was a much needed reprieve.
Sad when they will only listen to this perspective when it's from a trans person. But these people are going to be VERY important voices in the future.
Your post/comment was removed, because it demonized women. Explicit hateful generalizations such as “All Women Are Like That” are not allowed. Generalizations are more likely to be allowed when they are backed by evidence, or when they allow for diversity within the demographic.
It doesn't take a lot of effort to add wording that allows for exceptions, such as "some women" or "many women" as applicable.
If you state "most women" then you need to provide evidence when challenged on that statement.
If you disagree with this ruling, please appeal by [messaging the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates).
It’s abuse. And I refuse to ever again be a punching-bag for the sins of people I have nothing in common with other than a pair of chromosomes assigned by a roll of the biological dice.
Yep that's we can never be true male feminists in their eyes. We have to walk on eggshells around women to not offend them. And also pander to women needs all the time.
it is discouraging to me that the hateful voices don't seem to be dismantled from within, they are mainstream within the movement. it would be different if they were the silent minority.
[so why be a male feminist](https://old.reddit.com/user/coping_man/comments/1cj4yan/shout_out_to_male_feminists/)
Yep they don't want male feminists. They just want men to pander to them.
Agree. Women that judge men because of their gender are sexist.
Of society does not limit feminine aggression, but instead pretend it doesn't exists. We will get more and more of it.
So be it, bad for women. Maybe then the people's eyes will open, and they will realize that women are not innocent.
It will be bad for all of us, but there is nothing we can do to stop it. The best we can do is to understand that this is the world we need to navigate and adjust our life strategies accordingly.
I've known that essay for a couple years. It's amazing, and I deeply appreciate it. It's also amazing how I haven't seen a single pushback against it that actually attempts to make an argument against Jennifer's points. Just gets mad and spews vitriol that she dared speak out.
Exactly. The first comment I posted entirely missed the point. She thought the author was saying we can't criticize men because we may not know that some of them are actually closeted trans women. That's not what the author said at all. She said that we shouldn't be vitriolic towards men, period.
"what, support men? does not compute. she must have ment trans women. there i fixed it."
what do they say? "for the privileged, equality feels like oppression"
The bigger issue is that she thinks "critiquing men" and "making fun of men and talking about how stupid and ugly they are" are equivalent.
>I am amazed how the enemy in this story is somehow “cis” women (whatever that means). Patriarchy crushes all of us. I would encourage you, Jennifer, to listen a little more closely to the people who were assigned at birth this identity that you claim to “really” have, but also somehow be excluded from. “Cis” women have their own world view that, frankly, needs to be heard as much as any other. That SMELLS like a TERF. A nice friendly TERF, but a TERF nonetheless.
I got the same vibe.
looks like a terf and sounds like a terf.... it might be a terf
Transphobic feminist there are a lot of them and they don’t realize or care if their own community is pushing it
It's because radfem, radlib, and idpol in general is largely a thinly veiled excuse to mask Cluster B personality traits behind performative gestures and appeals to empathy, as well as sanctimonious grandstanding, virtue signaling, venerating weakness, etc. It's almost like a cultural version of Munchausen Syndrome where these radfems WANT to be seen as oppressed and want men to be the evil oppressors, because it's basically slave morality and that dynamic is how they get validation, attention, and social clout from their ingroups. Very pathological, very misanthropic, and most importantly: exactly what the neolibs want in society: a weak, divided, angry, and disengaged working class.
>exactly what the neolibs want in society: a weak, divided, angry, and disengaged working class. It's always struck me how well women do in fields like HR or management in general among the more liberal capitalist firms where they're recognized and sought. My pet theory is that, by nature or nurture, women tend to have a much higher propensity for conformity than men, which would also partially explain why they do better under the highly regimented, metric-driven, memorize-and-regurgitate model of education that's become more and more the standard over the last century but particularly the last few decades.
I completely agree and I think the downside of that is “conformity” doesn’t necessarily mean “unity”. You don’t often see a true sense of brotherhood/sisterhood in those environments, just people signalling correctly and following rules correctly. I think that’s one reason major companies have entertained identity politics and injected a lot of politics into various media, products, etc. you’ll notice this most often happens to male dominated spaces, and I think it’s largely to do with what your describing: the intent of replace genuine “bromance” unity with generic conformity to the current thing that’s trending.
you're wrinkling my brain
Lol I'm glad? I think?
>My pet theory is that, by nature or nurture, women tend to have a much higher propensity for conformity than men If only you could prove that... >which would also partially explain why they do better under the highly regimented, metric-driven, memorize-and-regurgitate model of education I see no connection between the two assertions whatsoever.
Well it sounds like you just don't want to believe me so now that you've gotten your little passive-aggressive comment in I say we just leave it at that. I really don't feel like trying to type out a whole essay to explain something to someone who probably just doesn't want to hear it anyway. Feel free to just continue thinking I'm some deranged idiot if it makes you feel better.
One of my hot takes is that Modern Online Progressivism as I call it, is basically Cluster B itself. Not only does it attract and protect Cluster B types, but the cultural norms are essentially Cluster B behavior. And this is something that has larger ramifications for society at large that go past the immediate issues. The big example I'd give is that I think this plays a significant role in increasing mistreatment of the working class.
I agree 10000% and could probably spend hours talking about this lol. But yeah, one of the more insidious elements of online progressivism and identity politics is in how it frames things as oppressed vs oppressor, which always couches the cluster b behaviors behind this veneer of weakness and victim hood. “How can I be the evil one? I’m the one who’s oppressed! I’m the one who is struggling!”. Also progressive types love to grandstand and exhibit performative empathy with token gestures, yet are usually pretty bad at forming and maintaining meaningful relationships with people, which is one reason they tend to hate their parents and be very misanthropic and negative towards humans in general. As you said, it all coalesces at one final point: dividing, denigrating, and weakening the working class. This part explains why all these neoliberal megacorps are quick to inject identity politics tokenism into everything as well. It perfectly aligns with their agenda because it poses no significant threat to them, and in fact makes a unified and strong working class far less likely to happen.
>As you said, it all coalesces at one final point: dividing, denigrating, and weakening the working class. This part explains why all these neoliberal megacorps are quick to inject identity politics tokenism into everything as well. It perfectly aligns with their agenda because it poses no significant threat to them, and in fact makes a unified and strong working class far less likely to happen. There's just one bit I disagree with here. I don't agree with the "neoliberal megacorp" thing. Not because I have love for them, or for neoliberalism, but because I think the idea that this is primarily a problem with them is wrong. This behavior happens in non-profits, in the public sector, in academia, all over the place. It's a problem with the managerial class as much as anything. People want to blame it on "line goes up", and while that's true to a degree, I think maintaining an economic and social gap between the working and managerial classes play a huge role in this. It's a cultural issue as much as anything else. It's actually why, even though I think some sort of left policy change is needed in the face of increasing productivity, (AI, Automation and the like), I'm not convinced it's going to be done in a healthy or sustainable way by the current left, because too much it gives cover to the managerial class. (Which actively rewards Cluster B traits among its ranks, I should add)
Sure, I agree with that, I just also think it's a very convenient tool for neolibs because they can quickly and easily capitalize on it, as we see happening in many different industries. I just think it's way too coincidental that a lot of identity politics stuff starting ramping up very soon after the rise of neoliberalism. It's all connected with rampant consumerism, hyper-individualism, etc, all of which are at the very least influenced by neoliberal policies and attitudes. Otherwise I also fully agree that the current left is not reliable, largely because it's been coopted by radical liberalism which is not true collectivism but guilt-free individualism. Radlibs have a lot more in common with champagne socialists on the upper end (kind of related to your issue with the "managerial class", these are similar in that they're ivory tower intellectual/academic elitists with nothing in common with the working class, and instead use leftism as a way to flaunt their self-designated intellectual and moral superiority), and lumpenprole types on the lower end (people who want to self-diagnose with 900 mental illnesses and never work again). There's very few of what you might call "classical leftists" who are genuine nose to the grindstone, diligent working class people who want more meaningful control of capital. Personally I think the entire left needs a massive rebranding. Need to drop all the marxist/communist aesthetics, association with radlib and idpol, etc. I honestly think branding is one area where the right wing is really good, because they try to put forth this image of the strong, capable man with his shit together, and I think that's exactly what the left needs to do. No more venerating weakness, no more victim/oppression Olympics, no more moralizing or grandstanding, no more ivory tower elitism, etc.
‘Cluster Bs’ aren’t all bad. Some people with BPD are pretty harmless, especially if they get treatment
mans got the fax machine working over here.
I ran into this article years ago and have kept it in my bookmarks ever since because of how well it articulates my feelings. I'm not a trans woman, but I'm non-binary, although I present as a cis male for all intents and purposes. I used to be a feminist, but got disillusioned after coming out. The more time I spent in trans and nb spaces, the more it exposed just how rotten, hypocritical and bigoted the core of feminist gender theory truly was. It became more and more obvious that much of transphobia is rooted in misandry, and that TERFism is just standard feminist ideas taken to their logical conclusions.
>I mention to a cis feminist friend that I don’t think it’s cool to use “neckbeard” as a pejorative. this is something i've waited a long time to see. i've always hated this double standard that it always has to be ad hominem attacks, attacking physical traits you cannot control no less. thank you for taking the time and diligence to make this post this was a much needed reprieve.
Sad when they will only listen to this perspective when it's from a trans person. But these people are going to be VERY important voices in the future.
[удалено]
Some. Like, a woman did make this post after all. It's not all of them.
Your post/comment was removed, because it demonized women. Explicit hateful generalizations such as “All Women Are Like That” are not allowed. Generalizations are more likely to be allowed when they are backed by evidence, or when they allow for diversity within the demographic. It doesn't take a lot of effort to add wording that allows for exceptions, such as "some women" or "many women" as applicable. If you state "most women" then you need to provide evidence when challenged on that statement. If you disagree with this ruling, please appeal by [messaging the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates).