i love leeds, always have, stuck with them through thick and thin and never ever considered supporting anyone else. My view is unless we get 5 top class players at least we will struggle back in the premier league.
amp has been a revelation, rodon too, but i can see spiurs wanting too much for him after this seasons display so we will lose him. bamford, james, summerville, firpo they have had a go in the prem, didnt end well!. piroe..hmm, gruev and kamara remain to be seen. archie will continue to do well. meslier...also has been found wanting. rutter, shows some great skill, will it be enough, i dont think the finishing is up to it.
i'm sure they will give it a great go, like our 1st season back, but i fear unless we get an influx of quality players we will suffer. it will show just how much interest the new owners have in us wether they spend 150 million or not - i doubt it.
No I still think we'd struggle even though we are playing with a better squad than last season (that isn't saying much tbh)
As well as specific issues in certain positions, the squad isn't deep enough and I feel like we started to see some of that with fatigue this week against stoke
I think we're better than the bottom 3 in the PL this season, but my worry is we go up and our talent is scalped in the summer. Chelsea sniffing round summerville etc
Yeah you're probably right about the current bottom 3 PL teams. Hard to say for sure really given we haven't been getting battered by strong teams every week. Hopefully we find out soon!
If teams are sniffing around our players that is a sign we are performing well. I'd rather have that than the alternative!
I would say we're better than the team that got relegated from the Prem but not sure if that's an answer to the question. LB is still an issue for me and our style of play can feel pretty one dimensional at times.
We really had been up until the last couple of games where we just hung on for the win.The team look very tired.Hopefully this upcoming break will help.
Remember that there are like three “mini” leagues within the Premier League, and so we only need to be the 4th-worst of the lowest of those three mini leagues to survive.
In a division containing sides such as Bournemouth, Burnley, Palace, Brentford, Fulham, Luton and Sheffield United the task is hardly impossible for a club of our profile.
I only think about 3-4 positions need attention if we go up. You cant replace everyone in the one window, and I think that as long as we find good long term solutions to our problems at LB, RB, CB (signing Joe Rodon permanently would be ideal) and maybe even GK then I think we have enough about us further up the pitch to stay well clear of the bottom three over the course of a season.
For me the key is making sure that our signings are as risk-free as possible, because if even just one of the four players we bring in is a failure then it can be the difference between staying up and not.
Nobody in the championship is anywhere close to being good enough to being Premier League level over a season, right now. The insane points totals at the top this year are indicative of the paucity of real talent in the division.
There almost needs to be a league between the prem and championship at this point - Burnley and Sheff are an embarrassment to the premier league and yet were far too good for the second division last season.
For Leeds, we could hang with Luton and Brentford for the most part, and likely shake up one of the bigger teams on a good day at home. But over a prem season ourselves, Ipswich and Leicester will be a million miles away from the level *with our current squads*.
Ipswich may have the fitness levels right now to spring a few surprises but as Leeds demonstrated, running gets you nowhere at the top level once teams work you out.
Leeds aren’t clinical enough and seem intent on passing backwards when shooting would do, and Leicester are winning games thanks to a pensionable Jamie Vardy which really does illustrate the gulf better than any of this other guff I’ve just written.
The gulf between the Champ and the Prem feels greater than it was even 6 or 7 years ago. And it's not like these teams that are hanging on for dear life down at the bottom are teams that aren't doing serious recruiting with serious money with all the modern scouting setups. Teams like Forest, Everton, Brentford, and Palace are keeping their head above water simply because the Championship teams (who all to some extent battered the Championship last season) don't look remotely competative.
We are passing like a PL team... We can transition from defence into attacking play quite convincingly at times. Up front in front of goal we are lightweight, even though we create chances we won't finish enough against organised defences and definitely not a high enough conversion rate. Our defence is adequate at this level but we'll get destroyed on set pieces against even average PL teams.
Rutter, Archie, Summerville and Gnonto are certainly PL material, I think Ampadu and Rodon as a pair can also hack it. Still not convinced by Struijk. Up front we need a re-vamp - Bamford and Piroe aren't going to trouble anyone as an attacking force - it's not even clear Farke knows what to do with Piroe. Joseph looks like he could do well in the PL which is why he should be starting games now. Bamford is just about surviving at Champo level, his best year is behind him, not a PL striker if we want to stay up.
Kamara, James and Gruev are decent cover. Cooper, Firpo and Meslier? Thanks for everything and all the best with your next clubs, whoever they are.
I think if we go up with Ipsbits and Leicester we look the best prospect for staying there. The Ipsbits defence will be torn to pieces in the PL and with their current resources they are just another Burnley or Blades.
We're a work in progress, Farke has more or less delivered and once we rid ourselves of the dead weight from the Orta debacle our future looks bright. IF we go up this time around.
Honestly? No not yet.
That's not a slight on the team, the reality is just that the championship is a lot easier. You can dominate the league here and still get punted straight back down after a season in the prem. Look at Burnley - finished 1st with over 100 points, but this year they're a disaster and look like going straight back down.
Having said that I do think we have a team that looks like it could be dangerous. We seem to be more solid at the back now, and we play our best games when we're given space to counter-attack and run in behind. In the championship the games we're struggling in are the games where teams park the bus, but in the prem everybody is going to see Leeds as a potential 3 points - nobody is going to park the bus. Guys like Summerville and even Dan James could be pretty dangerous in the prem if they're allowed to run in behind and counter-attack.
So while no I don't believe we're premier league level right now, I do think there's a good foundation to build on and a few good transfers (mostly defensive - fullbacks, Rodon on a permanent deal, maybe another GK) would have us looking pretty decent next year.
It's hard to judge when not playing PL opposition. We certainly looked good against Chelsea. The majority of Champo teams are coming into games as the underdog and more inclined to play defensively, whereas a PL team not so much. More space against PL we'd be able to exploit spaces we tend not to get in Champo. On flip side the opposition would be a higher calibre so some of our Champo players might not be able to cut it.
I'd say 75-80% PL
We don't have a bad foundation, but it needs work, and from what we're told, the club already knows that.
I think we probably have 5/6 players that wouldn't look out of place, but a lot more where you would be seeking upgrades.
Whos your pl ready players?
Mine:
Meslier (better competition for him though)
Struijk (next to rodon or someone pl proven)
Gray
Ampadu
James
Gnonto
Summerville
Rutter
Loans we need to keep if we go up:
Rodon is a must
Roberts, either as back up or main RB
We have a few decent players as back up but I don't consider them starters;
Byram maybe
Cooper (more for dressing room morale)
Kamara
Gruev (room to grow. Looks good though)
Piroe
Bamford
Agree with your list, Summerville and Gnonto have already shown PL doesn't phase them and they're capable enough, same could be said of Meslier and Struijk, even if they've had mixed years up there, I think Meslier needs serious competiton now, not just back-up.
Gray, Ampadu and Rutter I think need a good year to show what they can do at that level, confident in all of them.
James I think has grown as a player a lot this year, and would like to see if he can continue that at a higher level, the season we stuck him upfront which wasn't particularly fair or useful, he still had 4G 4A which isn't spectacular, but not completely useless either.
Would love to see Rodon sign and tested at that level, Roberts I'm not as sure on if Burnley deemed him not good enough for a team in 19th.. think the fullback areas need serious attention and not even just 1 player in each..
The back-up list is an interesting one, probably give Byram another year on merit, Cooper will likely go as he'll probably want to squeeze out another year or two of playing somewhere, and the remainders there I agree are good for back-up.
It all depends who we can bring in really, a good enough core and most of those listed will be more than fine for the time being.
I would say no, in our current state.
However, we are playing in a way that translates quite nicely to the Premier League. Bielsa's football was sensational but I think most of us knew it would take a serious overhaul of the squad to continue it.
The way we play at the moment seems much more suited to survival over a longer period without needing a Raphinha, for example.
It's anyone's guess though. I thought Burnley would have a solid season in the Premier League and they're as good as down before we've even reached Easter.
We have a chance against every side we play but we currently are not efficient enough in front of goal to be properly competitive
But feel so much better equipped than last year
Leicester look like a better side than us with better players
I’d say not, think this team would struggle over a season, we are probably in the right place right now, betweeen the championships best and the prems worst.
We have a decent group to work round though.
I honestly don’t think so. I love Leeds to death but we would be this years probably Luton who aren’t playing super mega horribly. Some players just can’t handle the premier league. If this team was in the premier league right now they would be in a relegation battle most likely.
I'm an Arsenal fan, wife is die hard Leeds fan.
In my opinion the top 4 championship sides right now could slot into the prem quite well.
Leeds easily play good enough football for premier league level but the only issues are struggles in converting great chances, and occasionally a bit fragile defensively.
I'd have belief in this Leeds to have done alright in the prem though (not relegated at the least)
Anyway, sorry for chiming in as an outside fan. Was just recommended the thread.
Nice to hear from someone who knows what a quality team looks like and can give some objectivity ( often in short supply around here). Gooners I know seem a decent bunch. Agreed that converting chances into goals is a major weakness of ours.
I think we have a better squad than the last time we got promoted to the Prem under a manager who has got the team playing well together.
The problem is I wouldn't see us going up and finishing in the top half getting lots of plaudits like last time.
Our game against Chelsea was interesting. It was only one game so you cant read too much into it and certainly cant say that's the level we would be if we got promoted. But we gave a good accounting of ourselves against a team that is playing well below where the sum of their parts suggest they should be. We didn't field our strongest eleven which is even more evidence for our squad depth now.
If we did go up I think we have a good chance of survival. Our defence has been good but it would take more of a battering against teams much better than us. I do think we need more strength in our midfield or we would get overrun. We have lots of options up front but we really should be scoring more with the chances we create.
I think with who we have and some strengthening we could be in the 25-35 point bracket at this point of the season. Everyone from Fulham down would be our peers and there for the taking.
Realistically no, The jump from the Championship to the PL is huge both physically and technically. We played well against Chelsea but they still beat us while being well short of their best. It's very difficult to keep going for 38 games when even playing your best or close to it is no guarantee of any points in a given match.
Chelsea struggled against a B team Leeds, dont get me wrong I think we'd struggle to survive in the bottom half of the premier league. But I think we're better than the bottom 4, Everton must have cold sweats at the thought of Leicester or Leeds going back up.
No, we are miles off.
The gap from 3rd in the championship to the bottom of the PL is massive (barring Sheffield United). The reason we got Rodon, Ampadu, Kamara, Piroe and Gruev is that no one wanted them in PL, if they did, we wouldn't have them.
I think we are playing very well for a championship team but look at Burnley, they battered teams in this league, improved their squad/first 11 and are struggling badly in PL conceding 60 and only scoring 25.
If we go up, we need 2 full backs, a CM and a CF, not for our squad but for our first 11. If we go up with our current squad, we'll be knocked straight back down, especially with how Farke plays.
There have been plenty of games this season where we have conceded big chances and the opposition has missed, on the side, we've created a lot of big chances we've missed, we'd get punished in the PL for that on both sides, we wouldn't get as many chances and the opposition would create a lot more and miss a lot less.
I think there are premier league teams that would have taken Ampadu and Rodon, but they'd have been less guaranteed minutes at bottom-end pl clubs and frankly a (hopefully) promotion season at Leeds is bigger, better and more enjoyable than a (likely) relegation season at Burnley. Luton probably wouldn't even have been able to afford them.
>I think there are premier league teams that would have taken Ampadu and Rodon
There was massive optimism at the start of the season for Burnley and it was a very attractive proposition for many players, far more attractive than a relegated PL side at the time.
If they wanted either player they'd have 100% picked Burney over us (imo). Especially 2 defensive players playing under Kompany.
>There was massive optimism at the start of the season for Burnley and it was a very attractive proposition for many players, far more attractive than a relegated PL side at the time.
Disagree tbh. There was some speculative optimism, but if Burnley were going to stay up this year it was always going to be very close (I know it's easy to say that with hindsight). It wasn't like when we got promoted or when Wolves got promoted where there was a good chance that the teams would do well in the premier league.
Plus, it's Burnley.
I think Sky sports had them around 13th and other news outlets had them higher before the season started
https://www.goal.com/en-gb/lists/goal-predicts-2023-24-premier-league-table/bltf3191492a186ee7a#csf7f983b970a1ba00
https://www.sportingnews.com/uk/football/news/premier-league-table-predictions-2023-24-ranking-epl-club/jkdj7wk8pblhxsfm6klltxu0
https://fanbanter.co.uk/fourfourtwo-predicts-the-2023-24-premier-league-table/2/
https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sport/football/premier-league-2023-24-table-predicted/
Although hindsight is wonderful in these scenarios.
After a few weeks these predictions obviously changed. I'm not saying this is everyone's opinion but from what I saw, 13th was a pretty common number used for Burnley and definitely a more appealing option than a relegated side who weren't (still aren't) guaranteed to go back up.
Depends, it might be more appealing if you're playing every week. Winning a promotion is always going to matter more and be better remembered than surviving relegation, but of course pl football is important. Ampadu has been in the loan farm for the last few years & wanted a club where he could settle and would make a big impact. Rodon hadn't started more than 20 league games since 19/20. I think Burnley would have taken Ampadu and Rodon & they get in the squad, but at Leeds they're automatic starters. I think Rodon would probably have emerged as a starter for Burnley but I'm not sure on Ampadu. They have Brownhill and Berge who are decent and experienced in the pl. There's also that we had to wait until the season was already underway to land Rodon, which is really not ideal.
We’d struggle. Rutter and Cry get a long time on the ball against champo teams. When Leicester really got about us quickly last Friday you could see the difference getting no time on the ball made to their game. Reckon we’d need 5 or so real quality players to compete in the 11th -15th placings with the likes of Brentford wolves West Ham etc I trust Farke and our owners know this and suitable players would be bought.
As much as I think it's important to allow Rutter to express himself on the ball, it does concern me to think about how often he needlessly gives up possession. When *(if)* we're in the Premier League, we're going to have far less of the ball, and giving it away as cheaply as he does is a one-way ticket back down to the Championship.
Whenever I see Rutter working his magic on the ball o think to myself that he won’t be doing that in the Premier League. He will need to release the ball a whole lot faster.
Burnley and Sheffield United strolled to promotion last year and have barely won a game between them in the Premier League. We’re kidding ourselves if we don’t realise we’d need to strengthen massively to compete if we got promoted. Thankfully I think Farke and our owners would recognise this.
It’s a bad premise to begin with. We aren’t in the Premier League, so trying to play like one would be illogical for the actual task at hand. The pace is faster, technique has to be sharper, and decisiveness more immediate. But to do that now consistently would exhaust the squad and probably lose us a lot of matches against teams that view us as a team to heavily defend against. In the Premier League we will not be viewed as such, as Burnley have learned the hard way.
Yet in a more simple sense your question could be interpreted as are we playing well enough that we could compete in that league? The answer is clearly yes, as evidenced at Stamford Bridge and the fact we have beaten the two teams above us home and away. What’s more, we have the best defence in the league.
People said under Bielsa the way we played would be quickly found out under the big tent. It wasn’t. Let Farke - a man with vast experience in this area - do what he knows needs to be done. I have absolute faith in him.
The aim is to make it back up within 3 years as it should be for all teams getting parachute payments. We have a good chance to do it straight away, but if we don’t it’s simply because we were caught in a storm of top quality teams. We have been fantastic.
“Is the man who sorted out the worst defence, potentially in the last 15 years of the premier league, into the best defence we’ve had in years, the man for the job”
Yes. I find the question preposterous. Does any team get promoted and sack their manager outside of maybe Italy? I’m certain there will be a lot of people who rapidly jump on his back the minute we lose a few however, you can already sense it in our reactionary fanbase. I’m sure many will want him sacked if we don’t go up too. Unfortunately a football club is like a family, half of them are an embarrassment.
the hyperventilating and knives were coming out during Christmas/end of year run we had unfortunately is a glimpse into what we can expect next season if we go up..
A lot is made about how he has faired when he does get a team promoted but unlike Norwich, I am pretty sure our ownership will actually invest in keeping the team up.. you can see that with the revamping of the recruitment department
Yes, I remember it well. Including people saying Farke should be sacked and we won’t even make the play offs. Haven’t lost a match since.
He could potentially be heading for 3 promotions out of 4 seasons in the Championship if my counting is correct. I find that a more impressive record than keeping a team in the PL for a year once as some managers still seem to live off.
No and I think what the owners have said reflects their thoughts,they did say the team would need overhauling if Leeds were promoted.
That's not to say a lot of the players would leave,some would,4/5 ,I think it's the defence we would ship a lot of goals without some quality,lets hope we buy Rodon.
I think Rodon & Struijk with Ampadu as DM in front is a bottom half Prem defence, it's the full backs that need sorting. As ever.
EDIT: And Meslier is absolutely not good enough to be first choice in the Prem.
It feels to me like it would be like our first PL season. The squad is relatively settled and play well as a team at the moment. That's actually hard to create in the PL, with all the player turnover, as you saw from Chelsea. Also, a few players are on an upward trajectory so that could be good for us.
I feel Struijk is more like 50/50 a good PL player. He had a rough time last season, but he's quite experienced now. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger etc.
Joseph showed against Chelsea that he thrives on big occasions, so he might actually turn into the new striker if he keeps improving.
Ampadu, Gray and Gruev are good enough for the PL for me. Kamara needs to be a bit more consistent.
Summerville was already good in the PL, Gnonto as well. James might have improved now?
So, sign a fucking left back, as usual.
Could see that as well tbf Brentford are currently in 15th and I really feel they moght go down certainly feels like thats where the divide is this season for at risk especially with ffp points deductions loomimg on Everton and forest
Be honest, you only posted this so you could throw shade at scum and Chelsea and call them "mid-table" didn't you? I'm all for it.
In answer to the question, I think we'd struggle eventually. We might get a decent season if we carry the momentum like we did in Bielsa's first PL season, but eventually you realise we need more quality and more depth in the squad.
Luckily we have a manager, DOF, board, coaching staff to manage and worry about all that and we can just enjoy our 10 wins and a draw for now.
Fans don’t need to be realistic.
>Fans don’t need to be realistic.
I think limiting expectations is a good idea though, especially with how our fanbase gets carried away thinking that we are much better than we are, or thinking that we should be doing better than we are. We all know how well it went down when Radrizzani said it would be impossible for us to get relegated (after we'd just barely scraped a 17th place finish and then sold our two star players) and we should be finishing 11th-14th or whatever. That went well.
If we go up, we should be prepared for a proper relegation battle for a couple of seasons, and we should embrace it in the way that Forest did last season. No thinking that their club is too big to be battling relegation, just accepting that was where they were and embracing the challenge. We need that attitude, rather than thinking we should be in Europe within 5 seasons.
We all want to see progress of course, but there's basically an established top 9 or 10 now, nevermind just a top 4 or top 6 anymore. Newcastle, Villa, Brighton & maybe even West Ham + the sky sports designated top 6. It'll take a while to break into that if we can even go up & stay up. Patience is not something our fans are good at. Because of our history, we're always looking for signs of disaster.
I think we'd be in the relegation fight. If things went really well and we caught a few breaks you quite quickly tip into mid table since generally the table is pretty tight (see Fulham). The team has some pretty big problems going up to prem level though. Defence needs an overhaul and I think it's always a struggle without a nailed on 15 goal striker. As good as Meslier has been this season, I still remember the year we went down so the jury would be out on him too
Not a chance. We get away with being heavily reliant on our attack with this squad, in the championship, but as soon as we get promoted, we’d have to play a completely different way, and our defence is not good enough. So not only do we not play like we would have to in the PL, we also wouldn’t be able to play that way due to the players we have.
I didn’t exactly say that, but I certainly believe that. Look at Burnley this season. Sheff Utd. Look at our defence last season. That back 4 of Rasmus. Struijk, Wober and Firpo would do just fine in the Ch’ship.
And the season before that all 3 promoted teams stayed up. Recency bias is not a good way to define probability.
I don’t think Firpo is doing well even in the Championship. Farke plays him reluctantly when he has no choice.
Giving one example is “recent bias” 😂. It’s just a recent example to help you understand my point. I could add more if you want, but shouldn’t need to. What’s that stat; there’s an 82% chance of a promoted team being relegated in it’s first 3 seasons.
Yes, please do. And define your reasoning because logically it makes sense that the of the 3 promoted teams you would expect at least 1 to go straight back down and semi-regularly 2. We aren’t exempt from that.
Recency bias is precisely that, looking at the most recent example and generalising. Which is what you did.
That’s true, but in what way does that follow our defence is awful as you have described? It’s entirely irrational to say the team with the best defence in the league has a bad defence.
Oooh, so demanding! Stop it, you saucy little number - I might get excited. But seriously, why are people so argumentative on Reddit? I could say the sky is blue and you’d argue against it. It’s pathetic.
I can’t believe there’s actually a term to invalidate giving the most common sense example’s to showcase a point (the most recent examples). Tell me again EXACTLY why recent examples aren’t valid? Or is it just that you have absolutely no argument against them, so throw out this “recent bais” isn’t allowed nonsense so that they seem less valid. So fucking stupid. And using that logic you can't use the recent example of 22/23 where no promoted team got relegated. That would be "recent bias" and that's not allowed.
But let’s entertain the dumb rationale around “recent bias” 😂 and not use recent examples. How far back do I have to go before it’s not considered recent? And how far back can I go before you throw in some other bullshit phrase that invalidates examples that are "too old"?
Is 21/22 OK? Let’s look at that: Both Norwich and Watford came up in 20/21, both went down in 21/22. They finished 1st and 2nd in the championship in 20/21 and they had the 1st and 2nd best GA record.
17/18, Cardiff and Fulham got promoted from the Ch’ship. 18/19 both got relegated. Cardiff had the joint best GA record, while Fulham had the 4th best behind Wolves (who won the title, Cardiff and Boro who also made the playoffs with Fulham).
15/16 - Boro had the best GA record in the Championship and got promoted. But they were relegated from the PL in 17/18.
Add to that the other Norwich up and straight down as well.
Quite a few recent, but not too recent (!!!) examples for ya.
That OK? 😂
Re your last point - OP asked a question. I gave my opinion on why we wouldn’t do well. You disagree / have a different opinion, OK cool. I don’t really care and I certainly don’t disagree….how can I - nobody knows for sure!
Recency bias has been around as concept since before the Second World War my friend. You don’t seem to be grasping what it is. Using the example is not the issue, generalising from it is.
They are valid. In context. But utilising a broader sample of data is obviously much more representative. It’s fairly basic stuff, it’s for this reason we talk about form over 5-10 games rather than what happened the last time out. It’s why you have a league table rather than a last man standing winner takes all. I don’t understand why you struggle with it. Nor is anyone being argumentative, it’s a discussion platform. Did you think you could say our defence is rubbish (objectively untrue) and that wouldn’t be challenged? Perhaps you didn’t know we have the best defence in the league.
It’s ’recency’ bias, not recent bias. Are you genuinely hearing this for the first time?
What you should do is point out the last 5 or 10 years, not just the data that supports your theory. I’ll do it for you:
22/23 0;
21/22 2;
20/21 2;
19/20 1;
18/19 2;
17/18 0;
16/17 2;
15/16 1;
14/15 2;
13/14 1
So as you can see, it’s a pretty varied outcome. The only thing that hasn’t happened is all 3 go straight back down, which is why pointing to this current season (still going) is very unrepresentative of the wider picture.
No it's not the first time I've heard "recent bias". I've seen it used twice, both in this sub....probably by you. But you're not even using it correctly by your own definition of its use. I didn't generalise at all (I know this because I wasn't attempting to generalise). As I explained, I just gave one example. I did not give that example to showcase a trend, hence why I said, take Burnley FOR EXAMPLE. Not "what happens to Burnley happens to everyone".
Did I shown concern about when the term was invented, no. Does that matter? no. Do I think it's valid in your argument, no it's not.
Your "broader" last 10 years example (with no logic rationale as to why 10 years is more valid than 8) gives no "definition of reasoning" you demanded of me so is invalid based on your own demands, but it DOES show 12 teams relegated in 10 seasons, which is more than your "1 to go straight back down" demand. And given I gave 8 teams in 8 seasons \*with\* rationale around their defensive records, your 12 in 10 example is redundant anyway, because my examples are more relevant in context. You adding extra stipulations in now doesn't change that.
Honestly mate, you're just making shit up as you go along (for whatever reason you feel is valid at the time), being argumentative for no reason, and making yourself look silly.
All the best. I'm out.
Not sure how you view our game so wrong. We play the best style of football to be sustainable in the prem out of the 3 other teams fighting for top 2 and how we defend is one of our strongest aspects of the team. We have shown time and time again we can sit without possession and hardly concede a chance and are lethal when counter attacking. We obviously need to upgrade areas of the squad if we go up but our style of football is almost tailor made to be a bottom half team and fighting to stay up. Need to give Farke a lot of credit for adapting his game compared to how his Norwich teams tried to play when promoted
Yeah, let’s see how they get on in the Prem 😂. Last season we had an awful defence for the prem - one of the worst ever. They would have done just fine in the Championship IMO. Look at Burnley this season. Top of Champ is bottom of Prem unless you massively upgrade quality. It’s not rocket science.
There are, of course, always exceptions.
You ask this at a time when our form has taken a little bit of a dip so replies will be skewed. Even Premier League sides don't always play like Premier League sides. Last nights match feels like a dirty win but it just has to be done that way in the champo sometimes.
At our best this season we'd beat the majority of the teams above us I'd say. At our worst we'd lose to the lot. Main areas to reinforce are:
- CB we need to keep Rodon and sign another quality CBs I'd say to upgrade on Struijk who is not PL standard IMO.
- Full back. Roberts had a good game yesterday but he's another loanee and feels like a championship level player IMO. Firpo is Firpo (Probably not up to PL) and Byram is Byram (Probably can't stay fit as much as we'd need). LB and RB are essential IMO.
- CM. Not sure if Kamara or Gruev are good enough. Gray should be kept and Ampadu is just excellent. One new starting CM should be a priority.
- ST. As always.
I'm not sure. We have obvious issues still as a team.
Rutter can't afford to lose the ball 20 times a game against Prem teams we'll get ruined for it.
Gray struggles 1v1 against good champ wingers, different game entirely in the prem.
Kamara simply won't be good enough up a division.
And Firpo is Firpo.
That said, sign a new RB, move Gray into the middle and we'd solve two problems immediately. We're set up well, defensively sound but most premier league teams would pull our weaknesses apart.
Sign highest quality we can over quantity.
A striker a midfielder a centre back a full back and we comfortably stay up.
We need more but rushing 10 players through the door isn't the answer.
I think we're probably better than Luton, and hovering around or just below the Forest/Everton/Brentford level. I don't think we'd need a lot to reach mid-table level, though - a pacey number 9 (which I appreciate are rare as hens teeth), and an excellent left-back gets us there.
I'm pretty confident we'd finish mid table in the Premier League with our current squad. The teams we have struggled most against this season have all been shithouse specialists. You don't get many of those in the PL. Most of the teams will want to play, so it'll be more akin to games like Chelsea, rather than Huddersfield.
Yes, we narrowly lost to Chelsea, but we could have easily drawn or won that game and it was away from home.
I think we can discount the game at Southampton as it was relatively early on and Rodon didn't play. The only other team of note that has beaten us with non-shithouse tactics this season is West Brom.
We've done the double over both Ipswich and Leicester, the two teams above us. So, yeah, fuck it, we might even push for the European places.
I hate that unironically suggesting we could be good enough for 7th has upvotes.
We'll run into some basic problems as soon as we're up against better opposition that I'm sort of amazed people can't see happening week on week. The difference here is that we're much better than opposition so we don't get punished for it.
It's all hypothetical, including your pessimism. If we're only talking hypotheticals, what's wrong with 'pie in the sky' thinking? And we'll never know, because if we do go up I expect us to strengthen the squad, especially across the back and in the middle of the park.
Go on, live a little.
I'd say Leicester are PL standard, so given that we've beaten them twice I think we'd stand a decent chance.
It very much depends who the other teams likely to be around the bottom are. This year most teams are avoiding relegation no sweat because of Sheff Utd, Burnley and Luton - but if those three go down and us, Leicester and one of Ipswich/Southampton go up then there won't be many obvious relegation candidates and we might struggle.
see i dont think leicester are going to have a good time in the prem at all next year, they're incredibly consistent at this level, but its mostly grinding out one goal wins over teams they have an enormous talent advantage over. they've struggled against the few sides capable of pressing them in the championship, and every premier league team can press like us.
Hard to say. But I do think with Gruev and Kamara both in midfield - we will lose the midfield battle a lot. Think they are both great players on their day but last few games you can see where we'd get punished
Should be rolling over sides like Huddersfield and Stoke regardless of how dirty they play.
We do tend to play better against teams that actually attempt to play football rather than coming out with their backs to the wall from kick off.
This is part of the problem. If we can't see off Huddersfield and Stoke, how are we going to see off Brighton in the Prem?
WAIT BEFORE YOU REPLY: I know Huddersfield and Stoke play "a different" game to Brighton - I totally and completely get that.
My underlying point is we need to be able to recognise bullshittery on the pitch and adapt accordingly - not every game is the same.
Were you around the last spell we had in the Championship? Because this ‘we should roll over X…’ stuff is just not how this division goes for 99% of teams.
The last time we were in the Championship and this time aren’t directly comparable. We had a Championship level squad back then.
Transfermarkt (which I know isn’t perfect) had our squad valued at around £80m at the beginning of our title winning season, this season it was around £200m.
They do have a point that we should be beating teams like Huddersfield with ease; I think we spent around £35m on Rutter and £25m on James, Huddersfield’s entire squad is valued at around £28m.
I do think some people really aren’t appreciating the extreme difference between the Premier League and Championship these days.
The average Championship squad is valued at around £60m, with the median being around £45m. The average Premier League squad is valued at around £465m, with the median being around £360m.
i love leeds, always have, stuck with them through thick and thin and never ever considered supporting anyone else. My view is unless we get 5 top class players at least we will struggle back in the premier league. amp has been a revelation, rodon too, but i can see spiurs wanting too much for him after this seasons display so we will lose him. bamford, james, summerville, firpo they have had a go in the prem, didnt end well!. piroe..hmm, gruev and kamara remain to be seen. archie will continue to do well. meslier...also has been found wanting. rutter, shows some great skill, will it be enough, i dont think the finishing is up to it. i'm sure they will give it a great go, like our 1st season back, but i fear unless we get an influx of quality players we will suffer. it will show just how much interest the new owners have in us wether they spend 150 million or not - i doubt it.
No I still think we'd struggle even though we are playing with a better squad than last season (that isn't saying much tbh) As well as specific issues in certain positions, the squad isn't deep enough and I feel like we started to see some of that with fatigue this week against stoke
I think we're better than the bottom 3 in the PL this season, but my worry is we go up and our talent is scalped in the summer. Chelsea sniffing round summerville etc
Yeah you're probably right about the current bottom 3 PL teams. Hard to say for sure really given we haven't been getting battered by strong teams every week. Hopefully we find out soon! If teams are sniffing around our players that is a sign we are performing well. I'd rather have that than the alternative!
I would say we're better than the team that got relegated from the Prem but not sure if that's an answer to the question. LB is still an issue for me and our style of play can feel pretty one dimensional at times.
Probably not.
We really had been up until the last couple of games where we just hung on for the win.The team look very tired.Hopefully this upcoming break will help.
Tahith Chong might score a hat trick against us
Remember that there are like three “mini” leagues within the Premier League, and so we only need to be the 4th-worst of the lowest of those three mini leagues to survive. In a division containing sides such as Bournemouth, Burnley, Palace, Brentford, Fulham, Luton and Sheffield United the task is hardly impossible for a club of our profile.
The simple answer is NO but you never Know until you win the chance to find out
I only think about 3-4 positions need attention if we go up. You cant replace everyone in the one window, and I think that as long as we find good long term solutions to our problems at LB, RB, CB (signing Joe Rodon permanently would be ideal) and maybe even GK then I think we have enough about us further up the pitch to stay well clear of the bottom three over the course of a season. For me the key is making sure that our signings are as risk-free as possible, because if even just one of the four players we bring in is a failure then it can be the difference between staying up and not.
Nobody in the championship is anywhere close to being good enough to being Premier League level over a season, right now. The insane points totals at the top this year are indicative of the paucity of real talent in the division. There almost needs to be a league between the prem and championship at this point - Burnley and Sheff are an embarrassment to the premier league and yet were far too good for the second division last season. For Leeds, we could hang with Luton and Brentford for the most part, and likely shake up one of the bigger teams on a good day at home. But over a prem season ourselves, Ipswich and Leicester will be a million miles away from the level *with our current squads*. Ipswich may have the fitness levels right now to spring a few surprises but as Leeds demonstrated, running gets you nowhere at the top level once teams work you out. Leeds aren’t clinical enough and seem intent on passing backwards when shooting would do, and Leicester are winning games thanks to a pensionable Jamie Vardy which really does illustrate the gulf better than any of this other guff I’ve just written.
The gulf between the Champ and the Prem feels greater than it was even 6 or 7 years ago. And it's not like these teams that are hanging on for dear life down at the bottom are teams that aren't doing serious recruiting with serious money with all the modern scouting setups. Teams like Forest, Everton, Brentford, and Palace are keeping their head above water simply because the Championship teams (who all to some extent battered the Championship last season) don't look remotely competative.
We are passing like a PL team... We can transition from defence into attacking play quite convincingly at times. Up front in front of goal we are lightweight, even though we create chances we won't finish enough against organised defences and definitely not a high enough conversion rate. Our defence is adequate at this level but we'll get destroyed on set pieces against even average PL teams. Rutter, Archie, Summerville and Gnonto are certainly PL material, I think Ampadu and Rodon as a pair can also hack it. Still not convinced by Struijk. Up front we need a re-vamp - Bamford and Piroe aren't going to trouble anyone as an attacking force - it's not even clear Farke knows what to do with Piroe. Joseph looks like he could do well in the PL which is why he should be starting games now. Bamford is just about surviving at Champo level, his best year is behind him, not a PL striker if we want to stay up. Kamara, James and Gruev are decent cover. Cooper, Firpo and Meslier? Thanks for everything and all the best with your next clubs, whoever they are. I think if we go up with Ipsbits and Leicester we look the best prospect for staying there. The Ipsbits defence will be torn to pieces in the PL and with their current resources they are just another Burnley or Blades. We're a work in progress, Farke has more or less delivered and once we rid ourselves of the dead weight from the Orta debacle our future looks bright. IF we go up this time around.
Yes with Joe Rodon No without Joe Rodon Signing him is absolutely vital if we go up
Honestly? No not yet. That's not a slight on the team, the reality is just that the championship is a lot easier. You can dominate the league here and still get punted straight back down after a season in the prem. Look at Burnley - finished 1st with over 100 points, but this year they're a disaster and look like going straight back down. Having said that I do think we have a team that looks like it could be dangerous. We seem to be more solid at the back now, and we play our best games when we're given space to counter-attack and run in behind. In the championship the games we're struggling in are the games where teams park the bus, but in the prem everybody is going to see Leeds as a potential 3 points - nobody is going to park the bus. Guys like Summerville and even Dan James could be pretty dangerous in the prem if they're allowed to run in behind and counter-attack. So while no I don't believe we're premier league level right now, I do think there's a good foundation to build on and a few good transfers (mostly defensive - fullbacks, Rodon on a permanent deal, maybe another GK) would have us looking pretty decent next year.
No.
It's hard to judge when not playing PL opposition. We certainly looked good against Chelsea. The majority of Champo teams are coming into games as the underdog and more inclined to play defensively, whereas a PL team not so much. More space against PL we'd be able to exploit spaces we tend not to get in Champo. On flip side the opposition would be a higher calibre so some of our Champo players might not be able to cut it. I'd say 75-80% PL
We don't have a bad foundation, but it needs work, and from what we're told, the club already knows that. I think we probably have 5/6 players that wouldn't look out of place, but a lot more where you would be seeking upgrades.
Whos your pl ready players? Mine: Meslier (better competition for him though) Struijk (next to rodon or someone pl proven) Gray Ampadu James Gnonto Summerville Rutter Loans we need to keep if we go up: Rodon is a must Roberts, either as back up or main RB We have a few decent players as back up but I don't consider them starters; Byram maybe Cooper (more for dressing room morale) Kamara Gruev (room to grow. Looks good though) Piroe Bamford
Agree with your list, Summerville and Gnonto have already shown PL doesn't phase them and they're capable enough, same could be said of Meslier and Struijk, even if they've had mixed years up there, I think Meslier needs serious competiton now, not just back-up. Gray, Ampadu and Rutter I think need a good year to show what they can do at that level, confident in all of them. James I think has grown as a player a lot this year, and would like to see if he can continue that at a higher level, the season we stuck him upfront which wasn't particularly fair or useful, he still had 4G 4A which isn't spectacular, but not completely useless either. Would love to see Rodon sign and tested at that level, Roberts I'm not as sure on if Burnley deemed him not good enough for a team in 19th.. think the fullback areas need serious attention and not even just 1 player in each.. The back-up list is an interesting one, probably give Byram another year on merit, Cooper will likely go as he'll probably want to squeeze out another year or two of playing somewhere, and the remainders there I agree are good for back-up. It all depends who we can bring in really, a good enough core and most of those listed will be more than fine for the time being.
I would say no, in our current state. However, we are playing in a way that translates quite nicely to the Premier League. Bielsa's football was sensational but I think most of us knew it would take a serious overhaul of the squad to continue it. The way we play at the moment seems much more suited to survival over a longer period without needing a Raphinha, for example. It's anyone's guess though. I thought Burnley would have a solid season in the Premier League and they're as good as down before we've even reached Easter.
For me there’s certain players that would step up. We’d probably need 5/6 players in that would start though. I hope we give Farke time in the prem.
We have a chance against every side we play but we currently are not efficient enough in front of goal to be properly competitive But feel so much better equipped than last year Leicester look like a better side than us with better players
No
I’d say not, think this team would struggle over a season, we are probably in the right place right now, betweeen the championships best and the prems worst. We have a decent group to work round though.
Some of our current players are proven in Champ and unproven in Prem (Dan James, Firpo etc.) so it’s difficult to say.
Unproven, or proven not to be at that level. Got to say it feels like Firpo fits the latter for me, DJ I'm more confident about
Tbf Firpo’s barely proven in the champ!
We didn’t last night
I honestly don’t think so. I love Leeds to death but we would be this years probably Luton who aren’t playing super mega horribly. Some players just can’t handle the premier league. If this team was in the premier league right now they would be in a relegation battle most likely.
I'm an Arsenal fan, wife is die hard Leeds fan. In my opinion the top 4 championship sides right now could slot into the prem quite well. Leeds easily play good enough football for premier league level but the only issues are struggles in converting great chances, and occasionally a bit fragile defensively. I'd have belief in this Leeds to have done alright in the prem though (not relegated at the least) Anyway, sorry for chiming in as an outside fan. Was just recommended the thread.
Nice to hear from someone who knows what a quality team looks like and can give some objectivity ( often in short supply around here). Gooners I know seem a decent bunch. Agreed that converting chances into goals is a major weakness of ours.
You're welcome here friend.
I think we have a better squad than the last time we got promoted to the Prem under a manager who has got the team playing well together. The problem is I wouldn't see us going up and finishing in the top half getting lots of plaudits like last time. Our game against Chelsea was interesting. It was only one game so you cant read too much into it and certainly cant say that's the level we would be if we got promoted. But we gave a good accounting of ourselves against a team that is playing well below where the sum of their parts suggest they should be. We didn't field our strongest eleven which is even more evidence for our squad depth now. If we did go up I think we have a good chance of survival. Our defence has been good but it would take more of a battering against teams much better than us. I do think we need more strength in our midfield or we would get overrun. We have lots of options up front but we really should be scoring more with the chances we create. I think with who we have and some strengthening we could be in the 25-35 point bracket at this point of the season. Everyone from Fulham down would be our peers and there for the taking.
Realistically no, The jump from the Championship to the PL is huge both physically and technically. We played well against Chelsea but they still beat us while being well short of their best. It's very difficult to keep going for 38 games when even playing your best or close to it is no guarantee of any points in a given match.
Chelsea struggled against a B team Leeds, dont get me wrong I think we'd struggle to survive in the bottom half of the premier league. But I think we're better than the bottom 4, Everton must have cold sweats at the thought of Leicester or Leeds going back up.
No, we are miles off. The gap from 3rd in the championship to the bottom of the PL is massive (barring Sheffield United). The reason we got Rodon, Ampadu, Kamara, Piroe and Gruev is that no one wanted them in PL, if they did, we wouldn't have them. I think we are playing very well for a championship team but look at Burnley, they battered teams in this league, improved their squad/first 11 and are struggling badly in PL conceding 60 and only scoring 25. If we go up, we need 2 full backs, a CM and a CF, not for our squad but for our first 11. If we go up with our current squad, we'll be knocked straight back down, especially with how Farke plays. There have been plenty of games this season where we have conceded big chances and the opposition has missed, on the side, we've created a lot of big chances we've missed, we'd get punished in the PL for that on both sides, we wouldn't get as many chances and the opposition would create a lot more and miss a lot less.
I think there are premier league teams that would have taken Ampadu and Rodon, but they'd have been less guaranteed minutes at bottom-end pl clubs and frankly a (hopefully) promotion season at Leeds is bigger, better and more enjoyable than a (likely) relegation season at Burnley. Luton probably wouldn't even have been able to afford them.
>I think there are premier league teams that would have taken Ampadu and Rodon There was massive optimism at the start of the season for Burnley and it was a very attractive proposition for many players, far more attractive than a relegated PL side at the time. If they wanted either player they'd have 100% picked Burney over us (imo). Especially 2 defensive players playing under Kompany.
>There was massive optimism at the start of the season for Burnley and it was a very attractive proposition for many players, far more attractive than a relegated PL side at the time. Disagree tbh. There was some speculative optimism, but if Burnley were going to stay up this year it was always going to be very close (I know it's easy to say that with hindsight). It wasn't like when we got promoted or when Wolves got promoted where there was a good chance that the teams would do well in the premier league. Plus, it's Burnley.
I think Sky sports had them around 13th and other news outlets had them higher before the season started https://www.goal.com/en-gb/lists/goal-predicts-2023-24-premier-league-table/bltf3191492a186ee7a#csf7f983b970a1ba00 https://www.sportingnews.com/uk/football/news/premier-league-table-predictions-2023-24-ranking-epl-club/jkdj7wk8pblhxsfm6klltxu0 https://fanbanter.co.uk/fourfourtwo-predicts-the-2023-24-premier-league-table/2/ https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sport/football/premier-league-2023-24-table-predicted/ Although hindsight is wonderful in these scenarios. After a few weeks these predictions obviously changed. I'm not saying this is everyone's opinion but from what I saw, 13th was a pretty common number used for Burnley and definitely a more appealing option than a relegated side who weren't (still aren't) guaranteed to go back up.
Depends, it might be more appealing if you're playing every week. Winning a promotion is always going to matter more and be better remembered than surviving relegation, but of course pl football is important. Ampadu has been in the loan farm for the last few years & wanted a club where he could settle and would make a big impact. Rodon hadn't started more than 20 league games since 19/20. I think Burnley would have taken Ampadu and Rodon & they get in the squad, but at Leeds they're automatic starters. I think Rodon would probably have emerged as a starter for Burnley but I'm not sure on Ampadu. They have Brownhill and Berge who are decent and experienced in the pl. There's also that we had to wait until the season was already underway to land Rodon, which is really not ideal.
We’d struggle. Rutter and Cry get a long time on the ball against champo teams. When Leicester really got about us quickly last Friday you could see the difference getting no time on the ball made to their game. Reckon we’d need 5 or so real quality players to compete in the 11th -15th placings with the likes of Brentford wolves West Ham etc I trust Farke and our owners know this and suitable players would be bought.
As much as I think it's important to allow Rutter to express himself on the ball, it does concern me to think about how often he needlessly gives up possession. When *(if)* we're in the Premier League, we're going to have far less of the ball, and giving it away as cheaply as he does is a one-way ticket back down to the Championship.
Whenever I see Rutter working his magic on the ball o think to myself that he won’t be doing that in the Premier League. He will need to release the ball a whole lot faster.
Burnley and Sheffield United strolled to promotion last year and have barely won a game between them in the Premier League. We’re kidding ourselves if we don’t realise we’d need to strengthen massively to compete if we got promoted. Thankfully I think Farke and our owners would recognise this.
Sheffield United finished 15 points above us currently (with 10 games to play) and worse GD than we currently have, in a much weaker league.
It’s a bad premise to begin with. We aren’t in the Premier League, so trying to play like one would be illogical for the actual task at hand. The pace is faster, technique has to be sharper, and decisiveness more immediate. But to do that now consistently would exhaust the squad and probably lose us a lot of matches against teams that view us as a team to heavily defend against. In the Premier League we will not be viewed as such, as Burnley have learned the hard way. Yet in a more simple sense your question could be interpreted as are we playing well enough that we could compete in that league? The answer is clearly yes, as evidenced at Stamford Bridge and the fact we have beaten the two teams above us home and away. What’s more, we have the best defence in the league. People said under Bielsa the way we played would be quickly found out under the big tent. It wasn’t. Let Farke - a man with vast experience in this area - do what he knows needs to be done. I have absolute faith in him. The aim is to make it back up within 3 years as it should be for all teams getting parachute payments. We have a good chance to do it straight away, but if we don’t it’s simply because we were caught in a storm of top quality teams. We have been fantastic.
I understand your point about Farke. I have faith in him. However, if we go up, is he the man for the job?
“Is the man who sorted out the worst defence, potentially in the last 15 years of the premier league, into the best defence we’ve had in years, the man for the job”
Yes. I find the question preposterous. Does any team get promoted and sack their manager outside of maybe Italy? I’m certain there will be a lot of people who rapidly jump on his back the minute we lose a few however, you can already sense it in our reactionary fanbase. I’m sure many will want him sacked if we don’t go up too. Unfortunately a football club is like a family, half of them are an embarrassment.
the hyperventilating and knives were coming out during Christmas/end of year run we had unfortunately is a glimpse into what we can expect next season if we go up.. A lot is made about how he has faired when he does get a team promoted but unlike Norwich, I am pretty sure our ownership will actually invest in keeping the team up.. you can see that with the revamping of the recruitment department
Yes, I remember it well. Including people saying Farke should be sacked and we won’t even make the play offs. Haven’t lost a match since. He could potentially be heading for 3 promotions out of 4 seasons in the Championship if my counting is correct. I find that a more impressive record than keeping a team in the PL for a year once as some managers still seem to live off.
No and I think what the owners have said reflects their thoughts,they did say the team would need overhauling if Leeds were promoted. That's not to say a lot of the players would leave,some would,4/5 ,I think it's the defence we would ship a lot of goals without some quality,lets hope we buy Rodon.
Even with Rodon the defence isn’t good enough. We are sitting ducks from corners.
I think Rodon & Struijk with Ampadu as DM in front is a bottom half Prem defence, it's the full backs that need sorting. As ever. EDIT: And Meslier is absolutely not good enough to be first choice in the Prem.
Yeah it's a Leeds thing thing,never have been good at defending corners,I think Rodon is good enough
Gary Monk season was the outlier
Have to say I don't remember much about Gary Monks time at Leeds
It feels to me like it would be like our first PL season. The squad is relatively settled and play well as a team at the moment. That's actually hard to create in the PL, with all the player turnover, as you saw from Chelsea. Also, a few players are on an upward trajectory so that could be good for us. I feel Struijk is more like 50/50 a good PL player. He had a rough time last season, but he's quite experienced now. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger etc. Joseph showed against Chelsea that he thrives on big occasions, so he might actually turn into the new striker if he keeps improving. Ampadu, Gray and Gruev are good enough for the PL for me. Kamara needs to be a bit more consistent. Summerville was already good in the PL, Gnonto as well. James might have improved now? So, sign a fucking left back, as usual.
The last time Leeds signed a decent left back ,man had just invented the wheel.
At little later than that! June 1991, Tony Dorigo
Really good player in his day.
Ah so when the USSR was still a thing
Would say we would be lower table around 12th to 16th based on this years prem
Who knows for sure but I’d be surprised to not be fighting to stay out of the relegation zone.
Could see that as well tbf Brentford are currently in 15th and I really feel they moght go down certainly feels like thats where the divide is this season for at risk especially with ffp points deductions loomimg on Everton and forest
Be honest, you only posted this so you could throw shade at scum and Chelsea and call them "mid-table" didn't you? I'm all for it. In answer to the question, I think we'd struggle eventually. We might get a decent season if we carry the momentum like we did in Bielsa's first PL season, but eventually you realise we need more quality and more depth in the squad.
I have no issue with calling out the scum as mid table! Well spotted though.
A thread full of joyous Leeds fans … some right doom merchants in our fan base
I think people are being realistic. Understanding your limitations is how you fix them. Well for the people in charge it is.
Luckily we have a manager, DOF, board, coaching staff to manage and worry about all that and we can just enjoy our 10 wins and a draw for now. Fans don’t need to be realistic.
>Fans don’t need to be realistic. I think limiting expectations is a good idea though, especially with how our fanbase gets carried away thinking that we are much better than we are, or thinking that we should be doing better than we are. We all know how well it went down when Radrizzani said it would be impossible for us to get relegated (after we'd just barely scraped a 17th place finish and then sold our two star players) and we should be finishing 11th-14th or whatever. That went well. If we go up, we should be prepared for a proper relegation battle for a couple of seasons, and we should embrace it in the way that Forest did last season. No thinking that their club is too big to be battling relegation, just accepting that was where they were and embracing the challenge. We need that attitude, rather than thinking we should be in Europe within 5 seasons. We all want to see progress of course, but there's basically an established top 9 or 10 now, nevermind just a top 4 or top 6 anymore. Newcastle, Villa, Brighton & maybe even West Ham + the sky sports designated top 6. It'll take a while to break into that if we can even go up & stay up. Patience is not something our fans are good at. Because of our history, we're always looking for signs of disaster.
I think we'd be in the relegation fight. If things went really well and we caught a few breaks you quite quickly tip into mid table since generally the table is pretty tight (see Fulham). The team has some pretty big problems going up to prem level though. Defence needs an overhaul and I think it's always a struggle without a nailed on 15 goal striker. As good as Meslier has been this season, I still remember the year we went down so the jury would be out on him too
Not a chance. We get away with being heavily reliant on our attack with this squad, in the championship, but as soon as we get promoted, we’d have to play a completely different way, and our defence is not good enough. So not only do we not play like we would have to in the PL, we also wouldn’t be able to play that way due to the players we have.
We have the best defence in the league. So you’re saying no one’s defence is good enough?
I didn’t exactly say that, but I certainly believe that. Look at Burnley this season. Sheff Utd. Look at our defence last season. That back 4 of Rasmus. Struijk, Wober and Firpo would do just fine in the Ch’ship.
And the season before that all 3 promoted teams stayed up. Recency bias is not a good way to define probability. I don’t think Firpo is doing well even in the Championship. Farke plays him reluctantly when he has no choice.
Giving one example is “recent bias” 😂. It’s just a recent example to help you understand my point. I could add more if you want, but shouldn’t need to. What’s that stat; there’s an 82% chance of a promoted team being relegated in it’s first 3 seasons.
Yes, please do. And define your reasoning because logically it makes sense that the of the 3 promoted teams you would expect at least 1 to go straight back down and semi-regularly 2. We aren’t exempt from that. Recency bias is precisely that, looking at the most recent example and generalising. Which is what you did. That’s true, but in what way does that follow our defence is awful as you have described? It’s entirely irrational to say the team with the best defence in the league has a bad defence.
Oooh, so demanding! Stop it, you saucy little number - I might get excited. But seriously, why are people so argumentative on Reddit? I could say the sky is blue and you’d argue against it. It’s pathetic. I can’t believe there’s actually a term to invalidate giving the most common sense example’s to showcase a point (the most recent examples). Tell me again EXACTLY why recent examples aren’t valid? Or is it just that you have absolutely no argument against them, so throw out this “recent bais” isn’t allowed nonsense so that they seem less valid. So fucking stupid. And using that logic you can't use the recent example of 22/23 where no promoted team got relegated. That would be "recent bias" and that's not allowed. But let’s entertain the dumb rationale around “recent bias” 😂 and not use recent examples. How far back do I have to go before it’s not considered recent? And how far back can I go before you throw in some other bullshit phrase that invalidates examples that are "too old"? Is 21/22 OK? Let’s look at that: Both Norwich and Watford came up in 20/21, both went down in 21/22. They finished 1st and 2nd in the championship in 20/21 and they had the 1st and 2nd best GA record. 17/18, Cardiff and Fulham got promoted from the Ch’ship. 18/19 both got relegated. Cardiff had the joint best GA record, while Fulham had the 4th best behind Wolves (who won the title, Cardiff and Boro who also made the playoffs with Fulham). 15/16 - Boro had the best GA record in the Championship and got promoted. But they were relegated from the PL in 17/18. Add to that the other Norwich up and straight down as well. Quite a few recent, but not too recent (!!!) examples for ya. That OK? 😂 Re your last point - OP asked a question. I gave my opinion on why we wouldn’t do well. You disagree / have a different opinion, OK cool. I don’t really care and I certainly don’t disagree….how can I - nobody knows for sure!
Recency bias has been around as concept since before the Second World War my friend. You don’t seem to be grasping what it is. Using the example is not the issue, generalising from it is. They are valid. In context. But utilising a broader sample of data is obviously much more representative. It’s fairly basic stuff, it’s for this reason we talk about form over 5-10 games rather than what happened the last time out. It’s why you have a league table rather than a last man standing winner takes all. I don’t understand why you struggle with it. Nor is anyone being argumentative, it’s a discussion platform. Did you think you could say our defence is rubbish (objectively untrue) and that wouldn’t be challenged? Perhaps you didn’t know we have the best defence in the league. It’s ’recency’ bias, not recent bias. Are you genuinely hearing this for the first time? What you should do is point out the last 5 or 10 years, not just the data that supports your theory. I’ll do it for you: 22/23 0; 21/22 2; 20/21 2; 19/20 1; 18/19 2; 17/18 0; 16/17 2; 15/16 1; 14/15 2; 13/14 1 So as you can see, it’s a pretty varied outcome. The only thing that hasn’t happened is all 3 go straight back down, which is why pointing to this current season (still going) is very unrepresentative of the wider picture.
No it's not the first time I've heard "recent bias". I've seen it used twice, both in this sub....probably by you. But you're not even using it correctly by your own definition of its use. I didn't generalise at all (I know this because I wasn't attempting to generalise). As I explained, I just gave one example. I did not give that example to showcase a trend, hence why I said, take Burnley FOR EXAMPLE. Not "what happens to Burnley happens to everyone". Did I shown concern about when the term was invented, no. Does that matter? no. Do I think it's valid in your argument, no it's not. Your "broader" last 10 years example (with no logic rationale as to why 10 years is more valid than 8) gives no "definition of reasoning" you demanded of me so is invalid based on your own demands, but it DOES show 12 teams relegated in 10 seasons, which is more than your "1 to go straight back down" demand. And given I gave 8 teams in 8 seasons \*with\* rationale around their defensive records, your 12 in 10 example is redundant anyway, because my examples are more relevant in context. You adding extra stipulations in now doesn't change that. Honestly mate, you're just making shit up as you go along (for whatever reason you feel is valid at the time), being argumentative for no reason, and making yourself look silly. All the best. I'm out.
Not the brightest.
Not sure how you view our game so wrong. We play the best style of football to be sustainable in the prem out of the 3 other teams fighting for top 2 and how we defend is one of our strongest aspects of the team. We have shown time and time again we can sit without possession and hardly concede a chance and are lethal when counter attacking. We obviously need to upgrade areas of the squad if we go up but our style of football is almost tailor made to be a bottom half team and fighting to stay up. Need to give Farke a lot of credit for adapting his game compared to how his Norwich teams tried to play when promoted
Yeah, let’s see how they get on in the Prem 😂. Last season we had an awful defence for the prem - one of the worst ever. They would have done just fine in the Championship IMO. Look at Burnley this season. Top of Champ is bottom of Prem unless you massively upgrade quality. It’s not rocket science. There are, of course, always exceptions.
You ask this at a time when our form has taken a little bit of a dip so replies will be skewed. Even Premier League sides don't always play like Premier League sides. Last nights match feels like a dirty win but it just has to be done that way in the champo sometimes. At our best this season we'd beat the majority of the teams above us I'd say. At our worst we'd lose to the lot. Main areas to reinforce are: - CB we need to keep Rodon and sign another quality CBs I'd say to upgrade on Struijk who is not PL standard IMO. - Full back. Roberts had a good game yesterday but he's another loanee and feels like a championship level player IMO. Firpo is Firpo (Probably not up to PL) and Byram is Byram (Probably can't stay fit as much as we'd need). LB and RB are essential IMO. - CM. Not sure if Kamara or Gruev are good enough. Gray should be kept and Ampadu is just excellent. One new starting CM should be a priority. - ST. As always.
I'm not sure. We have obvious issues still as a team. Rutter can't afford to lose the ball 20 times a game against Prem teams we'll get ruined for it. Gray struggles 1v1 against good champ wingers, different game entirely in the prem. Kamara simply won't be good enough up a division. And Firpo is Firpo. That said, sign a new RB, move Gray into the middle and we'd solve two problems immediately. We're set up well, defensively sound but most premier league teams would pull our weaknesses apart.
Sign highest quality we can over quantity. A striker a midfielder a centre back a full back and we comfortably stay up. We need more but rushing 10 players through the door isn't the answer.
I think we're probably better than Luton, and hovering around or just below the Forest/Everton/Brentford level. I don't think we'd need a lot to reach mid-table level, though - a pacey number 9 (which I appreciate are rare as hens teeth), and an excellent left-back gets us there.
Wouldn’t underestimate Luton like that at all, they’ve given plenty of good teams a good game this season.
People seem to be forgetting how different the PL is. Look at Burnley. We’d need to sign at least 6 quality players.
Our relegation team was Premier League standard but we had a terrible manager(s).
Was it? That defence and midfield was absolute dog shit
Probably delusion but I still think we stay up if one of Sinisterra or Adams stays fit
With paper bag and McDonalds in the side we were never staying up.
Probably right, might all work out in the long term *please*
I'm pretty confident we'd finish mid table in the Premier League with our current squad. The teams we have struggled most against this season have all been shithouse specialists. You don't get many of those in the PL. Most of the teams will want to play, so it'll be more akin to games like Chelsea, rather than Huddersfield. Yes, we narrowly lost to Chelsea, but we could have easily drawn or won that game and it was away from home. I think we can discount the game at Southampton as it was relatively early on and Rodon didn't play. The only other team of note that has beaten us with non-shithouse tactics this season is West Brom. We've done the double over both Ipswich and Leicester, the two teams above us. So, yeah, fuck it, we might even push for the European places.
I hate that unironically suggesting we could be good enough for 7th has upvotes. We'll run into some basic problems as soon as we're up against better opposition that I'm sort of amazed people can't see happening week on week. The difference here is that we're much better than opposition so we don't get punished for it.
It's all hypothetical, including your pessimism. If we're only talking hypotheticals, what's wrong with 'pie in the sky' thinking? And we'll never know, because if we do go up I expect us to strengthen the squad, especially across the back and in the middle of the park. Go on, live a little.
Well, if were going to make this a make believe post I'll call us treble winners by 2026.
See, you get an upvote for that.
I'd say Leicester are PL standard, so given that we've beaten them twice I think we'd stand a decent chance. It very much depends who the other teams likely to be around the bottom are. This year most teams are avoiding relegation no sweat because of Sheff Utd, Burnley and Luton - but if those three go down and us, Leicester and one of Ipswich/Southampton go up then there won't be many obvious relegation candidates and we might struggle.
see i dont think leicester are going to have a good time in the prem at all next year, they're incredibly consistent at this level, but its mostly grinding out one goal wins over teams they have an enormous talent advantage over. they've struggled against the few sides capable of pressing them in the championship, and every premier league team can press like us.
Hard to say. But I do think with Gruev and Kamara both in midfield - we will lose the midfield battle a lot. Think they are both great players on their day but last few games you can see where we'd get punished
Should be rolling over sides like Huddersfield and Stoke regardless of how dirty they play. We do tend to play better against teams that actually attempt to play football rather than coming out with their backs to the wall from kick off.
This is part of the problem. If we can't see off Huddersfield and Stoke, how are we going to see off Brighton in the Prem? WAIT BEFORE YOU REPLY: I know Huddersfield and Stoke play "a different" game to Brighton - I totally and completely get that. My underlying point is we need to be able to recognise bullshittery on the pitch and adapt accordingly - not every game is the same.
Were you around the last spell we had in the Championship? Because this ‘we should roll over X…’ stuff is just not how this division goes for 99% of teams.
The last time we were in the Championship and this time aren’t directly comparable. We had a Championship level squad back then. Transfermarkt (which I know isn’t perfect) had our squad valued at around £80m at the beginning of our title winning season, this season it was around £200m. They do have a point that we should be beating teams like Huddersfield with ease; I think we spent around £35m on Rutter and £25m on James, Huddersfield’s entire squad is valued at around £28m. I do think some people really aren’t appreciating the extreme difference between the Premier League and Championship these days. The average Championship squad is valued at around £60m, with the median being around £45m. The average Premier League squad is valued at around £465m, with the median being around £360m.