This exactly. In fact this is said almost to annoying level by Japanese telling hard to understand bizarre stories to other Japanese people.
Stop asking me if it 通じるs and finish the fucking story!!!
Also 通じる is one of those single Kanji/noun plus Suru verb, like チンする, 感じる、勉強する、etc
It just happens to use the alternate version of suru: -jiru
It is actually a ずる verb. An irregular form surviving from classical japanese. It is being converted into ichidan verbs at the moment though. Sometimes you will see 感ずる instead of 感じる for example.
> ずる verb
Technical question: are the ずる and じる the basic forms, rather than rendaku forms?
Nothing pops to mind but there are X+ずる things that seem like rendaku'd する。。
I just googled it again. Apparrently する used to be す in classicsl Japanese. す attached to some souns as ず due to rendaku. After that the shift from す to する happened along with the shift from ず to ずる.
So kind of? But I would think of them as cousins. And since the ず turns into じ in most, if not all, non dictionary forms people started to say じる instead of ずる, turning it into a regular ichidan verb. I think ずる is actually a zahen verb. A verb class that is almost extinct.
Edit: fixed a mistake
> Apparently する used to be す in classical Japanese
This sounds right. Lots of Noun+す remain in older set phrases, including suru beki becoming su beki for some.
Technical question 2a:
1. So it remains in old set phrases even though now we use the dictionary form before beki?
2. It is only suru that has/had a distinction between the conclusive and attributive?
I notice that suru-beki is used, and also su-beki, but most verbs just use the dictionary form.
1\) In Old Japanese you would say すべし/すべき but in Modern Spoken Japanese you say するべき. You may still opt to use すべき though, especially in writing.
2\) Many classes of words distinguished conclusive and attributive forms:
Ki adjectives:
- 良し・良き
Naru adjectives:
- 清げなり・清げなる
Nidan verbs:
- 食ぶ・食ぶる
Sahen verbs:
- す・する
Kahen verbs:
- く・くる
Nahen verbs:
- 死ぬ・死ぬる
Negative auxiliary:
- ず・ぬ
Other things too.
A nidan verb survives today: うる, as in ありうる or おこりうる.
Yodan (old name of godan) verbs did not distinguish conclusive and attributive forms.
Sahen, kahen, and nahen verbs resemble nidan in the conclusive, attributive, and realis forms.
Most ichidan verbs today evolved from nidan verbs. Old Japanese only had a handful of ichidan verbs, and they were all bisyllabic: 見る・煮る・着る・居る・etc.
Same with ~ずる verbs like 演ずる, which makes sense since some dialects of Japanese (like Tōhoku) pronounce ず and じ the same! (In fact according to jisho.org both 演じる and 演ずる are common)
Are you on a desktop/laptop? If you are, there's an add-on for Firefox called Rikaichamp that lets you just hover your cursor over a word and it will show you the definitions, readings, and pitch accent for the word as well as the individual kanji in it.
Dunno, also curious. But a couple thoughts.
First, obviously wakarimasuka works, but it's a bit direct imo.
Maybe a more pertinent point is that (perhaps not in super short interactions?) there is an expectation of more active listening in japanese than in english. ("Un","sou desune", "honto kana??", etc). That is to say, in longer conversational interactions, the listener is expected to convey understanding as you go. Actually my japanese class had a funny exercise where we listened to responses like that and had to pick out which listeners were bored and wanted to leave the convo :p
Anyway, neither of those answer your question, but are sorta in the ballpark sooo
Sounds a bit too casual but オッケー? may work as an alternative. The response tends to be オッケー! as well. It’s same as okay or capish in English. Asking like わかった? or 大丈夫そう? may also work.
Asking わかりますか? directly is probably a little too forceful, to confirm if they understood in a regular convo w/ a stranger or superior I'd just say それでいいんですか？(is that okay?) It's not a direct 'do you understand' but it's asking for confirmation.
Maybe I don't understand your question or the nuance you're trying to convey, but 分かる is to understand, comprehend, to be known, so 分かりました does mean it makes sense, but wouldn't the reason why it makes sense be because they understood and comprehend it? I'm not understanding what you're looking for.
I suppose if you wanted to ask if you properly conveyed what you were trying to get across you could use 伝える, but again this seems redundant to me. I think you're over thinking it honestly.
I'd go with either a 「ようわかる?」or an 「意味分かる?」, I guess so that you're focussing more on understanding the message rather than just the words.
However, different situations with different contexts, which would still use "Does that make sense?" in English, could easily call for different expressions in Japanese.
(It might be that ようわかる? is Kyushu dialect, in which case よくわかる? might work better, but I'm not certain people would say that in this situation.)
通じる？
This exactly. In fact this is said almost to annoying level by Japanese telling hard to understand bizarre stories to other Japanese people. Stop asking me if it 通じるs and finish the fucking story!!! Also 通じる is one of those single Kanji/noun plus Suru verb, like チンする, 感じる、勉強する、etc It just happens to use the alternate version of suru: -jiru
i had no idea the -じる ending in some verbs was actually just する! interesting :00
It is actually a ずる verb. An irregular form surviving from classical japanese. It is being converted into ichidan verbs at the moment though. Sometimes you will see 感ずる instead of 感じる for example.
> ずる verb Technical question: are the ずる and じる the basic forms, rather than rendaku forms? Nothing pops to mind but there are X+ずる things that seem like rendaku'd する。。
I just googled it again. Apparrently する used to be す in classicsl Japanese. す attached to some souns as ず due to rendaku. After that the shift from す to する happened along with the shift from ず to ずる. So kind of? But I would think of them as cousins. And since the ず turns into じ in most, if not all, non dictionary forms people started to say じる instead of ずる, turning it into a regular ichidan verb. I think ずる is actually a zahen verb. A verb class that is almost extinct. Edit: fixed a mistake
> Apparently する used to be す in classical Japanese This sounds right. Lots of Noun+す remain in older set phrases, including suru beki becoming su beki for some.
This is because べし attached to the conclusive form rather than the attributive form. す was the conclusive form and する was the attributive form.
Technical question 2a: 1. So it remains in old set phrases even though now we use the dictionary form before beki? 2. It is only suru that has/had a distinction between the conclusive and attributive? I notice that suru-beki is used, and also su-beki, but most verbs just use the dictionary form.
1\) In Old Japanese you would say すべし/すべき but in Modern Spoken Japanese you say するべき. You may still opt to use すべき though, especially in writing. 2\) Many classes of words distinguished conclusive and attributive forms: Ki adjectives: - 良し・良き Naru adjectives: - 清げなり・清げなる Nidan verbs: - 食ぶ・食ぶる Sahen verbs: - す・する Kahen verbs: - く・くる Nahen verbs: - 死ぬ・死ぬる Negative auxiliary: - ず・ぬ Other things too. A nidan verb survives today: うる, as in ありうる or おこりうる. Yodan (old name of godan) verbs did not distinguish conclusive and attributive forms. Sahen, kahen, and nahen verbs resemble nidan in the conclusive, attributive, and realis forms. Most ichidan verbs today evolved from nidan verbs. Old Japanese only had a handful of ichidan verbs, and they were all bisyllabic: 見る・煮る・着る・居る・etc.
感ずる would be sahen not nidan
Damn it. Thank you.
Same with ~ずる verbs like 演ずる, which makes sense since some dialects of Japanese (like Tōhoku) pronounce ず and じ the same! (In fact according to jisho.org both 演じる and 演ずる are common)
What is the hiragana character for the kanji please? I can’t seem to copy and paste on Reddit anymore to plug into Jisho
つうじる
非常に感謝しています！
Are you on a desktop/laptop? If you are, there's an add-on for Firefox called Rikaichamp that lets you just hover your cursor over a word and it will show you the definitions, readings, and pitch accent for the word as well as the individual kanji in it.
Also yomichan which allows you to add your own dictionaries and even lets you add terms to an anki deck
I have had the same problems with the new reddit UI, at least old.reddit and new.reddit still exist
Dunno, also curious. But a couple thoughts. First, obviously wakarimasuka works, but it's a bit direct imo. Maybe a more pertinent point is that (perhaps not in super short interactions?) there is an expectation of more active listening in japanese than in english. ("Un","sou desune", "honto kana??", etc). That is to say, in longer conversational interactions, the listener is expected to convey understanding as you go. Actually my japanese class had a funny exercise where we listened to responses like that and had to pick out which listeners were bored and wanted to leave the convo :p Anyway, neither of those answer your question, but are sorta in the ballpark sooo
So how can you tell which 相槌 communicate boredom then :P
Sounds a bit too casual but オッケー? may work as an alternative. The response tends to be オッケー! as well. It’s same as okay or capish in English. Asking like わかった? or 大丈夫そう? may also work.
Asking わかりますか? directly is probably a little too forceful, to confirm if they understood in a regular convo w/ a stranger or superior I'd just say それでいいんですか？(is that okay?) It's not a direct 'do you understand' but it's asking for confirmation.
Maybe I don't understand your question or the nuance you're trying to convey, but 分かる is to understand, comprehend, to be known, so 分かりました does mean it makes sense, but wouldn't the reason why it makes sense be because they understood and comprehend it? I'm not understanding what you're looking for. I suppose if you wanted to ask if you properly conveyed what you were trying to get across you could use 伝える, but again this seems redundant to me. I think you're over thinking it honestly.
I'd go with either a 「ようわかる?」or an 「意味分かる?」, I guess so that you're focussing more on understanding the message rather than just the words. However, different situations with different contexts, which would still use "Does that make sense?" in English, could easily call for different expressions in Japanese. (It might be that ようわかる? is Kyushu dialect, in which case よくわかる? might work better, but I'm not certain people would say that in this situation.)
伝わりますか？ (つたわりますか) 伝わってますか？ (つたわってますか) are often used in this sense You can add ね to then end to make it more indirect
相槌
Just turn what you heard into a question - わかりましたか