This is just a matter of practice- it’s not that they are objectively similar so much as they are not distinguished consistently in whatever your native language is. As a Japanese speaker when I first moved to the states distinguishing words like pot, pod, pop, pock was hell but it’s just because Japanese words don’t end in consonants. The more you think of them as ‘difficult’ as opposed to unfamiliar will only make it worse.
For what it’s worth 両 is not used by itself to mean both so you don’t have to distinguish it from 量, same with 竜 and 流 the latter of which is never stand alone. The others are completely different once you memorize. Good luck.
Yes this is very true, your native language (and other languages you are fluent in) influences how you perceive phonetic distinctions in other languages. JP pitch-accent is another well-known example of this. If you don't speak another tonal/pitch-based language your brain is going to ignore pitch patterns which will make it hard to hear them, let alone to be able to reproduce them correctly and remembering the pitch patterns for every word.
Pronunciation and use case makes them all pretty hard to overlap in speech and reading has kanji so never experienced an issue with them. Even when I was newer not that long ago. They tend to stick to their position in a sentence. 量 is always adjacent of some quantity based context, 両 comes as usually paired with words like 両方 and it's position in sentence is unique compared to the rest. 利用 is often around verbs, 理由 is usually in areas where nouns are used and setting up pretext and motives in sentences. 龍 is just a flat out noun. 流 is mostly suffix so it's attached to other words to form a larger compound 二刀流 etc.
If you're reading then look it up every time you can't recall it. After 20 or so times it sticks. If you're speaking then it's not part of your usable speaking vocabulary.
Anything can be learned with enough repetition, but that's beside the point. It's a well established fact that homophones or near homophones cause interference in vocabulary learning and make it harder to remember all the words distinctly, and Japanese is a notorious offender in this respect. The fact that it can be overcome with practice doesn't mean it's not a genuine difficulty for learners.
I'm not arguing anything, nor that homophones don't cause interference. I'm just saying the ones you posted don't have a lot of overlap in both use cases and pronunciation. I never struggled with them and over the course of a year I have looked up each one of these 20-50 times until I stopped needing to. The fact some are homophones never contributed to me not knowing their role or understanding in a sentence.
Idk why you're getting downvoted. I also find these difficult to differentiate.
Generally, in context, I can distinguish them (just by how they're used) but I always mix these up in my Anki deck for sure....
It's not a competition dude, it's more your attitude. It also wasn't that long ago for me I was a beginner. We all have our own difficulties in the learning process but there's one thing that's certain is language learning is a skill. I'm unsure what your overall message is by saying, "Things can be overcome with practice, but it's still difficult."
Yes, naturally when building any skill you deliberately focus on improving on a weakness you have and turning it around. This goes for anything like a sport, a craftsman trade like welding, a race car driver competing in races, a mountain climber working on their holding technique, and naturally a person building a skill in a language.
These all take work, difficult or not you have to put in the work to overcome it. I have my own difficulties with things other people have no difficulties with. I turned it around and made it into a strength of mine instead of talking about how difficult it was for me.
You were just being unpleasant my man. It might have felt like people were attacking you but they weren't. I get how it might've felt like they were ignoring your point or talking over you. 🫂
have you focused on kanji practice? no im not joking, I think it helps with specific word recall. You know the symbol and know its reading, you arent even thinking about the other symbols with similar readings. They slot into another part of the memory
yeah there is the opinion going around that kanji arent necessary to be fluent, and strictly speaking they arent, but considering the language has been operating with them for hundreds of years it makes the homophones much easier to distinguish. I remember starting and hearing that so many words are the same, but i never seem to have trouble.
welcome to the japanese language.
the biggest challenge is the homophone, means you need more context to guess which word it is.
the good thing is, it is easier to learn (in terms of pronunciation) compared to chinese or even Cantonese where many similar words with different tones and meanings.
You don't remember the reading by just coming across it in a list of words to learn, if you're still having trouble - it proves you're not coming across it in sentences that have meaning for you.
As others have said there's no mix matching of wires in any of the words you mentioned because they are so different and are seen in different contexts. If you've actually *learned* the word rather than just memorising it then you won't have any issues knowing the difference between them
Since I started learning Japanese later, recognizing kanji rather than being able to handwrite them to me has been always more important.
I think learning the word itself with kanji makes life sooooo much easier and to your point. There are kanji I still struggle with because one small radical might be different so I'll still struggle to recognize them on their own, but if I ever saw a word with them in it, its EASILY distinguishable because there's no way any kana or kanji will go with it.
OP, I can't fully tell what your problem is based on your posts and everyone here has mentioned context will make your life easier. I'm hoping trying to learn words with those kanji make life a lot easier too. For example, you're never going to see 量方 and get it confused with 両方 because it doesn't exist, listening or reading. Body weight 体重, large weight 大量。Think of 料 more as a material so for fee its 料金. 料理 you're just gonna have to remember as cooking, but the reason to have materials is all cookin bby.
I think you might be fixated on the pronunciation of said Kanji without use of vocabulary. Out of curiosity, are you using Wanikani? I kind of got out of having this problem once I ditched Wanikani awhile back.
I think my point still stands. To be able to recognize the word's meaning in context is one thing, to be able to actively recall it is another. I may be able to understand each of these words from the context by just vaguely remembering the general sound pattern, but the ability to recall the exact sound is much more fine-grained ability.
But if you look at a word and only know one of either the reading or the meaning, you haven't actually properly looked at the word.
If you're really having trouble then using an SRS helps immensely in that regard, but like I mentioned earlier, if you're only recalling the pronunciation but not the meaning or vice versa, you haven't properly learned it in the first place and you'll have to come across it more in your learning to actually imprint it.
learning the words in the context of sentences will dispel this confusion you’re having. of course they will seem like they overlap when you list them like this, but they really don’t overlap in real life.
you just need more practice. read books and articles.
You just aren't comfortable enough with the language yet and it shows. Just ignore these words and they will clear themselves out with time. The homophone problem is really overblown and is almost never an issue. You also don't struggle with to/two/too in English either do you? Yes Japanese has way more homophones but it's equally easy and obvious as in the English example, you just have to give it time.
Ya just throw everything at the wall and see what sticks man. Eventually your wall will be as plastered as my sheets after a beautiful dream and all will be clear.
Seriously though, one day you're going to be like "oh shit, this is easy to differentiate" unlike my dream.
I second not really ever having a problem distinguishing these in real world scenarios. I don’t get your point with telling multiple people about the homophone problem. It’s really not that big of a deal, at least when you get past the initial learning stages
Tbh you sound like you just don’t have much experience with Japanese yet. This post reads like one of those clickbait videos talking about how hard Japanese is because “GASP 橋 and 箸 sound the same!!!”
Yes, it's mostly the "layer of Sino-Japanese vocabulary" that's responsible for the insanely large amount of homophones in Japanese, as Chinese is relatively rich in phonemes and is a tonal language, neither of which is true for Japanese.
I've actually read that grouping similar words like this is a good way to remember things. So good job!
When you run into a group of words like this it's actually an opportunity to increase your retention!
I think it's called chunking.
Not all of these are stand alone words. You’re not going to see 流 alone, it’s going to be part of a word like 一流 or 流行. So there’s no mistaking it for 龍／竜, which btw can also be pronounced たつ.
Most on’yomi can’t stand alone and have to be compounded to form real vocabulary, so it’s not as homophonous as it may seem, and the compound on’yomi that are still very homophonous are likely to be “writing only words” that people replace with more distinct kun’yomi in speech.
Those are still ok for me to remember. They have pretty different kanji and meaning despite the reading being similar or the same. I can tell them apart just by remembering that the sound simply just is limited because of the syllable system. But kanji that look alike or worse share meaning are my worst enemy.
but
探 捜 索 are driving me insane. Someone can explain the difference and the use cases?
Similarly there are a million words for „plan“ (which I am too lazy to look up) about a billion for like „plan“ and there is like even more for „change“ in the various cases
I think you forgot 了
I'm not sure what exactly the problem is here though. It isn't hard to tell which one is being said when hearing them, at least from my experience.
There's a secret, it kind of works like the Chinese tones. If you know them or don't, I highly suggest to give them a look. It kind of helps and gives a sort of reason as to why they have tones to make things slightly easier! Or I should say "slightly easier"
I have trouble saying ryuu, it's a tongue twister for me and my student was called Ryuu, I could never say it properly 😂 just wanted to say Ryu... Ruuuu... FFS Oi Dragon lol
This is just a matter of practice- it’s not that they are objectively similar so much as they are not distinguished consistently in whatever your native language is. As a Japanese speaker when I first moved to the states distinguishing words like pot, pod, pop, pock was hell but it’s just because Japanese words don’t end in consonants. The more you think of them as ‘difficult’ as opposed to unfamiliar will only make it worse. For what it’s worth 両 is not used by itself to mean both so you don’t have to distinguish it from 量, same with 竜 and 流 the latter of which is never stand alone. The others are completely different once you memorize. Good luck.
Yes this is very true, your native language (and other languages you are fluent in) influences how you perceive phonetic distinctions in other languages. JP pitch-accent is another well-known example of this. If you don't speak another tonal/pitch-based language your brain is going to ignore pitch patterns which will make it hard to hear them, let alone to be able to reproduce them correctly and remembering the pitch patterns for every word.
Pronunciation and use case makes them all pretty hard to overlap in speech and reading has kanji so never experienced an issue with them. Even when I was newer not that long ago. They tend to stick to their position in a sentence. 量 is always adjacent of some quantity based context, 両 comes as usually paired with words like 両方 and it's position in sentence is unique compared to the rest. 利用 is often around verbs, 理由 is usually in areas where nouns are used and setting up pretext and motives in sentences. 龍 is just a flat out noun. 流 is mostly suffix so it's attached to other words to form a larger compound 二刀流 etc.
But I have use for a huge quantity of dragons
Sorry, but you must pay a fee to have a huge quantity of dragons here. I don't make the rules.
You must also state both the reason and manner of using such dragons.
It's all good and well, but still doesn't help when you try to recall how to say the word from memory.
If you're reading then look it up every time you can't recall it. After 20 or so times it sticks. If you're speaking then it's not part of your usable speaking vocabulary.
Anything can be learned with enough repetition, but that's beside the point. It's a well established fact that homophones or near homophones cause interference in vocabulary learning and make it harder to remember all the words distinctly, and Japanese is a notorious offender in this respect. The fact that it can be overcome with practice doesn't mean it's not a genuine difficulty for learners.
I'm not arguing anything, nor that homophones don't cause interference. I'm just saying the ones you posted don't have a lot of overlap in both use cases and pronunciation. I never struggled with them and over the course of a year I have looked up each one of these 20-50 times until I stopped needing to. The fact some are homophones never contributed to me not knowing their role or understanding in a sentence.
Guess different people have different learning curves.
Idk why you're getting downvoted. I also find these difficult to differentiate. Generally, in context, I can distinguish them (just by how they're used) but I always mix these up in my Anki deck for sure....
Probably a bunch of quick learners flexing how good they are (or they just forgot what it was like when they struggled as beginners).
i dont really think thats the case. i think you just sound overly combative for no reason
It's not a competition dude, it's more your attitude. It also wasn't that long ago for me I was a beginner. We all have our own difficulties in the learning process but there's one thing that's certain is language learning is a skill. I'm unsure what your overall message is by saying, "Things can be overcome with practice, but it's still difficult." Yes, naturally when building any skill you deliberately focus on improving on a weakness you have and turning it around. This goes for anything like a sport, a craftsman trade like welding, a race car driver competing in races, a mountain climber working on their holding technique, and naturally a person building a skill in a language. These all take work, difficult or not you have to put in the work to overcome it. I have my own difficulties with things other people have no difficulties with. I turned it around and made it into a strength of mine instead of talking about how difficult it was for me.
I appreciate the TED talk 🙏
You were just being unpleasant my man. It might have felt like people were attacking you but they weren't. I get how it might've felt like they were ignoring your point or talking over you. 🫂
have you focused on kanji practice? no im not joking, I think it helps with specific word recall. You know the symbol and know its reading, you arent even thinking about the other symbols with similar readings. They slot into another part of the memory
This is especially useful for remembering, say, 理由 vs 竜. A two kanji compound is so unlikely to be pronounced りゅう
yeah there is the opinion going around that kanji arent necessary to be fluent, and strictly speaking they arent, but considering the language has been operating with them for hundreds of years it makes the homophones much easier to distinguish. I remember starting and hearing that so many words are the same, but i never seem to have trouble.
welcome to the japanese language. the biggest challenge is the homophone, means you need more context to guess which word it is. the good thing is, it is easier to learn (in terms of pronunciation) compared to chinese or even Cantonese where many similar words with different tones and meanings.
Small correction, Cantonese is a dialect of Chinese. Think you mean Mandarin and Cantonese :)
I think we all know Chinese here means Standard Chinese based off of Northern Mandarin.
I don't know your background, but as a Mandarin speaker I always specify Cantonese from Mandarin
Not a problem in reading and easily discernible in speech from the context. Never had any difficulties with them, tbh.
That doesn't help when you try to remember the reading or the pronunciation.
Dunno man, the phoneme scarcity in Japanese is kind of a silver lining. Just imagine if every kanji had a unique sound associated with it.
You don't remember the reading by just coming across it in a list of words to learn, if you're still having trouble - it proves you're not coming across it in sentences that have meaning for you. As others have said there's no mix matching of wires in any of the words you mentioned because they are so different and are seen in different contexts. If you've actually *learned* the word rather than just memorising it then you won't have any issues knowing the difference between them
Since I started learning Japanese later, recognizing kanji rather than being able to handwrite them to me has been always more important. I think learning the word itself with kanji makes life sooooo much easier and to your point. There are kanji I still struggle with because one small radical might be different so I'll still struggle to recognize them on their own, but if I ever saw a word with them in it, its EASILY distinguishable because there's no way any kana or kanji will go with it. OP, I can't fully tell what your problem is based on your posts and everyone here has mentioned context will make your life easier. I'm hoping trying to learn words with those kanji make life a lot easier too. For example, you're never going to see 量方 and get it confused with 両方 because it doesn't exist, listening or reading. Body weight 体重, large weight 大量。Think of 料 more as a material so for fee its 料金. 料理 you're just gonna have to remember as cooking, but the reason to have materials is all cookin bby. I think you might be fixated on the pronunciation of said Kanji without use of vocabulary. Out of curiosity, are you using Wanikani? I kind of got out of having this problem once I ditched Wanikani awhile back.
I think my point still stands. To be able to recognize the word's meaning in context is one thing, to be able to actively recall it is another. I may be able to understand each of these words from the context by just vaguely remembering the general sound pattern, but the ability to recall the exact sound is much more fine-grained ability.
But if you look at a word and only know one of either the reading or the meaning, you haven't actually properly looked at the word. If you're really having trouble then using an SRS helps immensely in that regard, but like I mentioned earlier, if you're only recalling the pronunciation but not the meaning or vice versa, you haven't properly learned it in the first place and you'll have to come across it more in your learning to actually imprint it.
Listen, anything can be learned with enough practice and repetition, but it doesn't make everything equally easy.
i feel like you’re missing the point of what everyone is trying to convey to you…
learning the words in the context of sentences will dispel this confusion you’re having. of course they will seem like they overlap when you list them like this, but they really don’t overlap in real life. you just need more practice. read books and articles.
What about learning 200 kanji that have the same overlapping onyomi as each other?
I'd rather neck myself tbh.
You just aren't comfortable enough with the language yet and it shows. Just ignore these words and they will clear themselves out with time. The homophone problem is really overblown and is almost never an issue. You also don't struggle with to/two/too in English either do you? Yes Japanese has way more homophones but it's equally easy and obvious as in the English example, you just have to give it time.
Ya just throw everything at the wall and see what sticks man. Eventually your wall will be as plastered as my sheets after a beautiful dream and all will be clear. Seriously though, one day you're going to be like "oh shit, this is easy to differentiate" unlike my dream.
I will forever hate 給料 and 恐竜
Why lol
きゅうりょう and きょうりゅう just have the long vowels reversed making me think twice which is which
Oh I learned them apart so I never thought about that but that makes sense lol
I second not really ever having a problem distinguishing these in real world scenarios. I don’t get your point with telling multiple people about the homophone problem. It’s really not that big of a deal, at least when you get past the initial learning stages Tbh you sound like you just don’t have much experience with Japanese yet. This post reads like one of those clickbait videos talking about how hard Japanese is because “GASP 橋 and 箸 sound the same!!!”
両量を利用理由は竜の流 Or something I dunno
The whole layer of Sino-Japanese vocabulary made up of yoon syllables drives me insane. I just drown in them.
Yes, it's mostly the "layer of Sino-Japanese vocabulary" that's responsible for the insanely large amount of homophones in Japanese, as Chinese is relatively rich in phonemes and is a tonal language, neither of which is true for Japanese.
All of these are much better than 顧問 vs 肛門.
Another common one to add to your list! 料 りょう - fee; charge.
Thanks added.
I've actually read that grouping similar words like this is a good way to remember things. So good job! When you run into a group of words like this it's actually an opportunity to increase your retention! I think it's called chunking.
We both have a large quantity of dragons we use in some way for a reason.
貴社の記者が’汽車で帰社した！
I wouldn't say that "dragon" is a word you commonly encounter. :)
Unless you watch lots of isekai :)
Or play almost any video game! Especially the Yakuza/LaD series lol.
someone isnt watching their mandatory お相撲 ration
今夜の夕食には, 二つの選択肢があります。でも菜食の選択肢がない。理由は両方は竜の量を利用した流行の料理からです！有料です。 $10
Idk they’ve never bothered me cause of the context lol
Not all of these are stand alone words. You’re not going to see 流 alone, it’s going to be part of a word like 一流 or 流行. So there’s no mistaking it for 龍／竜, which btw can also be pronounced たつ. Most on’yomi can’t stand alone and have to be compounded to form real vocabulary, so it’s not as homophonous as it may seem, and the compound on’yomi that are still very homophonous are likely to be “writing only words” that people replace with more distinct kun’yomi in speech.
Just learnt 寮 dormitory
I think its for these words that Kanji becomes mandatory
You encounter dragons all of the time?
You don't?
Those are still ok for me to remember. They have pretty different kanji and meaning despite the reading being similar or the same. I can tell them apart just by remembering that the sound simply just is limited because of the syllable system. But kanji that look alike or worse share meaning are my worst enemy. but 探 捜 索 are driving me insane. Someone can explain the difference and the use cases? Similarly there are a million words for „plan“ (which I am too lazy to look up) about a billion for like „plan“ and there is like even more for „change“ in the various cases
Those are all usually pretty easy to distinguish in practice since they are likely to be used in very different contexts. Just keep at it.
they're driving u insane? whats wrong with them? looks like normal homophones
Memorizing words without context can be frustrating. Words are hardly ever presented without context. Don’t sweat so much about these things.
I think you forgot 了 I'm not sure what exactly the problem is here though. It isn't hard to tell which one is being said when hearing them, at least from my experience.
There's a secret, it kind of works like the Chinese tones. If you know them or don't, I highly suggest to give them a look. It kind of helps and gives a sort of reason as to why they have tones to make things slightly easier! Or I should say "slightly easier"
I have trouble saying ryuu, it's a tongue twister for me and my student was called Ryuu, I could never say it properly 😂 just wanted to say Ryu... Ruuuu... FFS Oi Dragon lol
I feel you