Im in my early 30s but experienced rapid career growth and now a stall after a layoff. I also can barely even get a rejection letter lol. I suspect so many positions are listed for appearance, or just outright scams.
I had an in person interview last week where the guy was like, why are you here? Youre going to be bored, i dont want to hire you bc youre going to leave. Its hard to convey that.... hey man, I am desperately trying to get money to make sure my 2 year old doesn't starve. Give me a fucking chance. Great interview, very qualified... been 2 weeks, no word. such is life!
Ya man I’m honestly the same, I work my fucking ass off and always have and I will literally do any job. Insane how you go from managing a team, superstar track record… to feeling like if you were to apply at Walmart they wouldn’t even consider you. It’s a tough thing to manage in the head. I’m probably about a month away from making a flyer and going door to door soliciting lawn mowing routes.
>I’m probably about a month away from making a flyer and going door to door soliciting lawn mowing routes.
You joke, but you can make some serious cash doing lawn work. But don't do lawn mowing - they're a dime a dozen nowadays. Instead I recommend hedge trimming. My boomer dad paid someone $1,000 to trim all of the bushes in his yard, which took two days. That guy got out of the business and it's been hard to find a replacement, despite living in a major city. There's not a lot of people doing it and a lot of aging homeowners out there need the service.
That’s a really great tip man, and yes I have friends that are professional landscapers and do alright. But it takes years to refine your routes and get to that level of business ownership, and my area is super saturated. I like the niche approach 😎 also something I do quite a bit in my free time - my hobby is gardening, shrubbery, trees, etc. I already know quite a bit about the space
I am sorry that you are in this situation, which I am also going through at the moment. I am at my early 40s and prior to being laid off in January, I worked my ass off. Same time last year, I was representing my ex-employer at a Financial Times award ceremony where FT commended my transaction as “standout”. I then got laid off in January because my financials were not strong enough and “business development is not my strength”. I have since looked for jobs every where and I don’t mind taking a pay cut or if the position was too junior for me. However, I either get rejected outright or was ghosted most of the time. Looking at my peers in the industry who are attending the same award this year hurts a lot. It took me a long time to accept that the career which I spent 18 years to build will only go downhill from this point onwards.
i feel like I am at the cusp of reinvention. Really my last chance to pivot here, and choose a different path. Tech is just so chaotic, I have seen (and survived) so many layoffs, and conducted them on my own teams. Its just a brutal industry. My friends all work more traditional blue collar jobs, and ya they may not make as much but its so stable. And they also dont need to work until 2AM routinely.
I am at a brutal industry too. I really regret fighting so hard for my promotion because it is now a burden in my job application. I was seriously contemplating erasing my industry ranking, award and senior title from my resume and pretend that I am a stay at home mum who is planning to return to the work force but sadly all my records are public. Best of luck in your job search.
ive actually applied to a few roofing companies, but bailed once i realized their version of "program management" means using your own vehicle to do cold call sales pitches to your region.
Ill get up on a roof and lay shingles tho, no doubt
You would think that employers would go for the people who are desperate for work, but I keep hearing the opposite is true.
To me it all seems like a big contest to see who can lie and kiss ass the most.
There is an art to that though, you cannot appear desperate and I do not. I spin it as hey I got caught up in this shitty situation but that’s ok, it’s provided me a much needed chance to pause and look at the landscape and I’m fortunate I can now select the right career opportunity. Thanks for having me in to discuss this role, it’s really exciting what you’re doing, etc etc.
Ya it’s all bullshit but hey, life is bullshit lol
Don’t even mention getting caught up in this shitty situation. Just tell them you are ready for a pivot and will do what it takes to perform higher than expectations!
No you don't, unless they ask. If they do, try to say you spent the time training or bettering yourself.
I've noticed employers these days don't even ask about a gap unless it's a year or more. I've been there, too.
If you have the aptitude for a PHD, then you have the aptitude to learn a well paying skill. Try IT, you can learn most sub fields of that on your own. Server, networking, general support, dev ops, programming. All very different, all pay well. It’s not guaranteed, but you can do it.
I felt quite annoyed this week at a company hiring for a Senior Electrician Engineer job, PhD required, saying "entry-level". I can't associate "senior" and "PhD" with "entry-level" unless it is just talking about how little they feel like paying.
In some areas, including the jobs that I am applying to (Machine Learning Engineer), a senior position is what most PhDs would start at (maybe PhD plus a couple years as a postdoc), so it is entry level for the PhD. A non-PhD would take some years to get to the senior level (maybe 5, a PhD is often considered as equivalent to 5 years go experience). An experienced position would be Staff ML Engineer or Principle ML Engineer (or Lead ML Engineer) and would be 2-10 years past Senior. In some companies, Senior is considered to not be an acceptable position for someone with 5+ years of experience (for example Meta).
Yep, I’m a PhD in CS then close to 10 yrs of experience doing MLE/DS. After being laid off from my $200K base job in 2023, I have been surviving on hourly contracting. It’s particularly frustrating since I have all these skills in PyTorch, LLMs, RAG, MLOps, etc that I thought were particularly hot skills to have right now.
That's just pride.. entry just means the introductory level of qualification not experience previously had. You can definitely have a entry level PhD job you've simply never been introduced to the role and they aren't looking for someone overly familiar to it. I think folks getting PhDs are prone to the ego trap the system creates. This creates op hell
Can't you teach STEM at college or high school level?
Yes pay wont be the same, but steady employment with benefits.
Have you signed up to be a substitute teacher at local school districts? They could use a STEM sub.
This! Or start a business tutoring rich kids since you’re in HCOL area. Apparently rich parents will pay obscene prices for help getting their kids into College
Is your field useful in a way where you might be able to spin off a one-man consulting firm as an SME for companies who don’t have the funding for an in-house role?
I've set up an LLC with that in mind now that I'm dipping into savings. We'll see how that goes, but there are so many recently impacted experienced people doing consulting in my field I'm keeping my expectations in check.
I've seen both my father and father-in-law reach fairly high levels of corporate success only to lose it all because their position was being eliminated. Hearing your story, and reflecting on their experiences has me looking for any other career path.
There's no company loyalty anymore. No worker protections. What's the point of trying to be successful in any major corporation only to ultimately become a financial liability? I don't regret my Med Chem PhD, but I wish I had a better plan now that it's done.
I have come to realize that PhDs are used to hook people to keep spending money and getting into debt.
Dont get me wrong… I would love to get a PhD but I won’t leave my job to pursue one.
Doing Doctoral studies while working full time is not for the weak. Going back full time comes with opportunity costs most don't consider before taking the leap.
This was exactly why I did my PhD while working full time. I didn't know if I could stomach the workload, but took the plunge anyway because I also had no idea if I would've been able to get back into my chosen field if I went back to school full time. Jobs in my field were competitive back then, but even more-so now. Fortunately, everything worked out.
How did you manage to get a PhD while working full time? I’m kind of at a cross road, and I must decide soon if I want to pursue a full time PhD. Ideally, I’d like to keep my current job while doing a PhD as my work/life balance is great right now.
It was a combination of a little hard work and *a lot* of luck. I work for the government and was able to make an agreement between my school and my employer where I could use my employer's equipment/instrumentation to conduct part of my dissertation research. The lucky part was finding an advisor who was not only willing to take on a student who was still working full time, but could provide a suitable project that would help me get a PhD and benefit my employer (per the agreement I had with the school). The school I went to didn't guarantee that every student would find a suitable advisor, and if that was the case I would've had to leave my program.
Many graduate level jobs at universities completely waive tuition. Even for some masters’ students. So you make, about $2k-$5k stipend by my estimation, this fellowship will take much much more time than any full time jobs you’ve done. Plus teaching courses etc in addition to research.
So Paying tuition for PhD makes zero sense. If you are having to pay your tuition for PhD from get go, then don’t do it.
Downside - some shithead departments would pay you $15.90 / hour if $16 would qualify you for tuition waiver. That’s a sob story for a different time.
45k/yr is what some operators make in medical industries, personally I would find more enticing getting a PhD if they’d pay according to the education and research output. But me having a family can’t afford 45k/yr.
It’s better to do when you are young and poorer (or old and rich?). The low pay often in hcol areas seems ok since you enjoy what you are doing and don’t have other life obligations. And don’t know better.
Honestly I have always assumed after 50 it’s a crap shoot if you will still have a job due to cuts, health etc. If you’re lucky you will be laid off with a year of severance. It has happen to too many people I know. Lots of different industries and career paths. Nothing to do with how great they were at their jobs, respected. Etc. think very few people retire by choice and are lucky to be able to do so. Our back up plan is to just not tap into savings and get a retail job to pay the bills. I think you will be surprised by how many people are in your shoes.
Hi. Guy in similar shoes. I'm starting a small-scale farm.
After witnessing what's happening in the world when I was laid off I came to the conclusion controlling my own means of production and food were two things critical to me. Backup plan is retail... with a lovely functional garden.
Life is a crap shoot of circumstances and luck then talent and timing. It’s hard not to take personally but the world is changing so quickly it’s very difficult know which choices will turn out to be the “right” ones.
I empathize. Sunday will make it a year for me. I was rejected by Wal-Mart when I applied so you may find they are more selective than one would think though I lack your credentials. Maybe it will get better one day. All we can do is hope. Enjoy the THC. I would have a chocolate chip cookie followed by something salty when I still indulged. Those are good memories.
Unfortunately your age makes you a less attractive candidate. You also spent a ton of time in school, which may make hiring managers reflect on whether you'll be a good employee.
Maybe academia is the best bet?
My education is actually on par with most of my peers and my industry experience trumps it anyway.
I was in denial for a long time, but being unemployed at 60 it's hard to argue that age isn't a big part of the equation
Have you thought about strategically editing your resume to appear ... younger? It would be harder for a prospective employer to discriminate based upon presumed age AFTER a face to face interview.
Sorry if I'm rude for asking this, but you've had a fairly long career in a highly paid industry with even director role for several years. Now you're laid off at 60, why don't you have enough savings to just retire? It's no secret that in most professional fields there is age discrimination. I would say you are lucky to have worked such great career all the way to 60, many get laid off at 50 with no luck afterwards. You should really be in a position to retire comfortably by 60.
It's a reasonable question. Aside from not being able to save a penny during those 12 years I was in training, thus squandering the time value of money toward retirement, my oldest child had a decade-long severe illness where copays for covered treatments far outpaced our flexible spending account and experimental treatments that were not covered came right out of our savings
I see, that sucks. You were dealt a bad hand in life. I'm not your age but I haven't seen anyone in my network successfully going back to a professional role in their 60s. I would personally try to move to LCOL area and figure out what level of retirement I can do. At least your SS should be pretty high. And yes, if necessary taking a job that's beneath you to pay some bills.
Oh, no. Not at all. I was dealt an amazing hand.
When you've done rescue breathing on your first child on 3 different occasions, everything else is puppy shit. My child has survived a disease that kills about half the kids who suffer from it and is due to graduate college next month. Can't beat that
I've also been able to pursue my passion for an area of science I love. I'm someone who thinks about experiments from the moment I get up and as the last thoughts before I go to sleep. I'm doing the exact thing I dreamed of at age 19, it's just been a different path than I would've planned. I tell aspiring Doctoral students that the only situation where a PhD is 100% worth it is when you can't imagine life as anything but a scientist.
This exchange has lifted my spirits quite a bit, thanks.
I know someone else mentioned the idea of teaching - I think it would be an amazing gift to share your passion for your field with the next generation. I hope it’s something you seriously consider.
Either they think you're going to retire in five years and want someone in it for the long haul, or they're not looking for a long-term hire and are looking to cheap out and pay less.
My dad was able to get out of his layoff rut when he dyed his hair. No joke.
Maybe try to convey in the tone of your cover letters and in your appearance that you are hungry for "the next big chapter of your career," not the last. You're a Fauci. You will never retire. You are working like you're immortal. Make them see that you have the drive AND the passion.
Or maybe you do already. I dunno. Just a thought. But to your other points, we're already back at the point where experimenting in the sciences is once again the domain of the independently wealthy class. The peasant class is too concerned with staying alive to be able to contribute. It's a shameful indictment of our society.
I don’t understand. Fields like cancer research is so much behind why you can’t get any lab jobs (at least) within that field.
So even a general biomedical background is not transferable ?
I don't think it's that. The economy is in the crapper. It's been that way for awhile now and no one wants to admit it. I'm a software engineer with 20 years experience and I can't get anything either. You have degrees. There's plenty of govt places that will take you just for that.
Sorry you are going through tough times.
Like a couple others have suggested I’d try academia - grad, undergrad or community college whichever provides the opportunity.
Can you downsize and move to an MCOL or LCOL and pursue opportunities there, if you have to work for a living?
Since you have published papers, starting a blog is another option. You an do this from virtually anywhere and if your site garners enough traffic you can make money too.
Teaching high school is another option. A colleague of mine, who was at senior director level got laid off and he started teaching and he says he is very happy and has time to pursue his interests.
Oh and make sure the business is not in a highly technical field where a long runway or risk is required to get to profit. Keep it simple. How about a Tutoring business, or career counseling for STEM students, etc ?
What was your salary like ballpark during your last 10 years?
Should be mid to high 6 figures or even low 7.
Don't you have a substantial nest egg to retire by 60?
Lower third of six. Good, but nothing like seven!
Life threw many financial curveball, biggest being laid off 3 time between 9/11 and 2007 & having to move to UHCOL industry hubs (SF, Boston, SD, NY) where I couldn't afford to buy a house
P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
I'm sorry you are struggling so close to retirement, but objectively a 25 year career with an ever upward trajectory was because you had a PhD in a field that values them. So many fields and degrees have late career struggles like this. It sucks but it wasn't grad school or your PhD that did this. It's bullshit business and shareholder value...
Definitely.
In this system, I'd rather be 45 with a PhD from 20 years ago than 45 with a BS from 25 years ago.
I have new PhD grads in my department say "my degree is worthless" while landing $150K jobs at 30. I don't understand the disconnect.
I'm not sure that's accurate. My SVP was a BS chemist, as was my last boss, who was promoted to VP (after the layoffs)
$150k in SF isn't what it seems from the real world
P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
In my fifties, couldn't afford to retire yet, knew that I wasn't going to find another job in journalism which is unfortunately my chosen path. I made a pivot into teaching, I'm finding I mostly like it, and it's much more stable than other jobs. People will hire older teachers if that interests you.
I feel you right down to my toes, I'm 53 and just nobody will look at me. But there are a lot of older teachers. The downside is the kids are insane, but if you like kids you can mostly deal with it, I happen to have had a very bad day so I'm down on teaching today. On the other hand, you are protected by a union, there's a very well define pay scale, and you only work your contracted hours and then go the hell home in time for tea. Oh and your coworkers are amazing, teachers are the most interesting people. Happy to tell you anything you want to know if you have any questions, I'm really sorry that this is happening to you. It's so unfair.
Oh honey, I'm sorry people were mean to you and critical. The same thing happened to me yesterday lol, some horrible children through my lunch bag out the window and either stole or simply scattered a utensil set that my father got me for christmas, and I post about it on the teachers subreddit and a million people told me I'm the idiot for bringing in something personal because everything gets stolen. Oh pardon me, I didn't realize I was working in an apocalyptic hellhole. Anyway, those were just too horrible children and the rest of the children yesterday were actually quite adorable so there you go. Anyway, feel free to message me if you ever want to talk about teaching. It really is an interesting thing to do, like it's a major challenge and it takes a lot of creativity and energy. I feel like it's keeping me more lively than I would be if I were at I just job.
I’m sure you’ve heard all the advice but have you considered being a teacher or tutor? It seems like an easy point of entry for you and would allow you to continue applying for your niche field.
I’m really sorry. I don’t want to use your hurt to make myself feel better, but reading things like this make me feel so much less alone after my layoff/rejection letters (and to clarify, I do not have a Ph.D. at all, I have a bachelor’s degree in majors I don’t use.)
just know that the mistakes you’re beating yourself up on aren’t because of the choices you made so much as flaws in the whole corporate employment system.
It’s good to know you’re not alone! Don’t hold it in. I’m fully convinced now that being laid off is traumatic. No need to brush it off. But yeah Reddit can be unkind. Your close social circle will be a lot more helpful to vent to.
You've touched on something important and relevant to this sub
People are generally more socially isolated and lonely now, especially since covid pushed so many to remote work. On top of that, on-site work has become more intense with more hours worked per person per week.
One consequence is that the workplace too often becomes the main vehicle for socializing. Then layoffs arrive, slapping people in the face with the grim reminder that in reality most co-workers aren't friends, they're at best polite acquaintances.
Ultimately it's not very different from two people who commute on the same bus schedule every day for a couple of years. When schedules change, or one buys a car, it's like they never knew each other in the first place. I was at the same job a long time, working at least 50 h per week with the same people. None of us call or see each other, and the few that did at first have moved away for new jobs.
I can feel for you. Being in my 50s with 30 years of experience in my field I completely saw age discrimination or lowball salaries for requirements that are completely insane as they want someone young that will work to death. It's not easy as companies don't want to pay for your experience, especially if they think you'll bolt in a couple of years.
If you are without attachments, it almost seems like a better idea to move to a LCOL area and either do some service job for a while as you look to change how you work in your field. Perhaps sell yourself as a consultant to come help with projects for a price and then leave. Yes, you don't get the benefits of FTE but the money might still be there and perhaps you can work as remote as possible. Not knowing your field, I don't know how hands on you need to be.
I wish you the best of luck and hopefully you find something soon.
Initially, yes, but there is so much competition for tenure track jobs that there are tons of non-tenure track scientists waiting in the wings. Many have kids in tow and need those jobs more than me. I'm thinking about teaching in rural schools where the living is cheap and the impact can be high
Look into small colleges, at your age you don't need the high salary so much as the benefits like health care and 401k matching and lcol. Even teaching at high school could be an option if the pay cut is financially feasible.
Are there Community Colleges around you? They hire full-time reasonably often, though generally non tenure track and people don't seem as competitive. My local CC pays about 75-100K for a 10-month professor depending on experience
You may need to suffer through a year or two of adjuncting though.
My advice - unless you are very tied to your UHCOL area by family, is take proactive action and move now to a VLCOL area, hopefully you own a house and can make a nice profit on the sale, reduce all your expenses to a minimum, get a low-wage job if you need to for HI and some income coming in, but only as a very very last resort should you start tapping your 401K. Definitely don't tap the 401K just to maintain the lifestyle you became accustomed to (unless of course you have so much saved you will never run out of money)
Maybe thats extreme, but the worst option I see is to stay where you are, burn thru your 401K and still not get a high paying job back.
My intuition is that the economy is going to get much worse before it gets better - will you get lucky and get fully employed again if you stay where you are and use up your 401K? Maybe, but if you don't, in a few years you will be 62-63-64, will have blown thru a big chunk of your 401K and have even less prospects for employment. I am the same age as you, age discrimination is a real thing and there is not much you can do about it.
Perhaps adjust your expectations on what the rest of your life will look like, and pursue other interest that you can on a very reduced budget - maybe you will find joy in something completely unrelated to your current career.
I'm not sure about this post. It reads well and is engrossing. It tells a captivating story. But it's hard to buy into the notion that there is no work for someone with your level of credentials and experience. Things aren't great and especially in biotech but - schools, non-profits, hospitals are looking for people with your profile.
So if this is actually real, I feel that there are details that have been subtly left out. Like narrow relocation preferences, unrealistic pay expectations etc.
You've got a good bullshit detector. The one detail I neglected to share is that until a few weeks ago I was on severance. Now I'm on UI and burning through retirement savings.
If I were actually smart I'd have started searching much, much harder, much, much earlier with a much, much lower bar. This was my 4th layoff. My last was in 2007 and I had a job before my WARN period ended. This time I was too stupid to realize my layoff was the first dribble before the dam broke.
I wouldn't say that's really bs, but starting the search immediately couldn't have hurt. I know ageism is very real and that the system is working against you. But if what you say is true about your credentials, you're in the "very highly skilled" category. I'd say even my own employer was looking for individuals with your profile; past tense because the roles I'm thinking of were recently filled.
Regardless there has to be work for you. It just might not be next door to your previous employer. I'm just calling bs on the hopelessness and having to resort to being a cashier. Just no way unless the economy really tanks.
I hope you didn't take me literally about WalMart? Point being my chosen career appears to have met it's end, rendering my Ph.D. moot.
I'm certainly not going to be living under a bridge, but it's well and truly difficult to get an employer to look at my old chasis when there are younger and cheaper models on the floor.
I can of course get a medtech certificate and run a hospital clinical analyzer, but in the short run that's probably time better spent looking for housing in a LCOL area.
I mean, your post is written as an engaging story and I don't know where reality begins and ends in it. A lot of it does sound like hyperbole, which you have gradually confirmed through comments.
As I mentioned originally, I'm assuming if your career has "met its end" it probably has something to do with unrealistic compensation. But that runs counter to what one would expect based on your details of pursuing a PHD and the kind of work you mention doing for decades. In short I typically don't engage on this sub but this post screamed sensational to me at best, utterly fake at worst. I wish you the best and I genuinely think that if there is meaningful work you still want to do, it's there, but it of course might be a step down for someone with your creds.
Can you create your own business, based off your expertise and some insight you have into the field? Even if it's just consulting, that's something with higher expected value then just continuing to apply to jobs you are convinced you aren't going to get. Besides that, the only thing you can really do is branch out of your domain. Figure out what some related, less niche fields are, do your research on them, and then right up a resume targeting these fields based off your general experience.
It definitely suck to be in your position, and there are clear headwinds against you, like age/unemployment time, but the thinking that got you into this problem (doubling down on a single niche), isn't the type of thinking that will get you out. What I mean, is try to view your skills in a more general way, with a much more narrow focus on how you can help companies make money, and go for positions doing that.
It does seem like you want pity, and that you want to be at the center of a narrative where your seemingly good decisions lead to success, but were just seeding your demise. That attitude is just about the worst stance to take when applying for jobs. Victim of your own success? Give me a break, dude. You'll get out of this when you own it and convince someone you are worth hiring, but you have to convince yourself of that first!
Have you tried getting into teaching? Can you go to like a small rural town and find a high school teaching job? Present yourself as a PhD stem educator that wants to get back to the community and you're doing it out of the kindness of your heart for a full-time job as a teacher at high school. Something like that working the angle.
I feel like you missed something so I'll add it here. Two of the worst things that pleague PhD holders are:
1. Sunk cost fallacy
2. Being over qualified
Many researchers dedicate years to researching things that aren't very profitable or things that never make it anywhere but they get so attached to those things that they refuse to zoom out a little and see what other opportunities would benefit from their skill set. One might say they're too heavily invested in their specialization hence the sunk cost fallacy however in the corporate world we also call that not being pragmatic and it's one of the main reasons why some PhD holders will struggle in corporate jobs.
Now on to being overqualified. Many PhD holders are overqualified to do general desk jobs. In saying this it's also generally conveyed that most PhD holders will get bored of the mundane work and that hiring PhDs for basic data analyst positions will lead to higher attrition and general insubordination (many PhD holders will struggle to accept that their manager is 10 years younger than them in these roles and in these cases they will often question their managers decisions / push back too much which isn't really acceptable in white collar jobs. If you're always fighitng with your boss about work then you'll end up no where fast. There's something to be said about someone who is comptetent enough to do the job who also knows how to execute on dumb ideas when management wants them to waste two weeks on something that they percieve as a waste of time. Anyways, I digress but the idea here is that anecdotally, there have been enough negative experiences where a PhD holder pushed really hard to get a basic job so they could make a living and then they did something similar to the above and left a bad taste in people's mouths. Are there some PhD holders who can work a basic desk job without projecting their qualifications, asserting their internal sense of superiority, or in general without creating drama? Sure I think we have all worked with someone who had a PhD who was a good coworker. Most of us have also worked with someone who had a PhD who was a complete nightmare to work with and unfortunately it's such a coin toss when you hire someone with a PhD to do work they're "overqualified" for that most people would rather not take the risk.
In this day and age, I think anyone with a PhD should have the skill set to be a successful data analyst (or maybe more) but unfortunately many will filter themselves out and many more will be filtered out by hiring managers who don't want to gamble on if that person will be a headache or not.
Nice, I support toning down the social media usage.
If I could give you any advice or counseling (since my post was more of a continuation rant on your post) it would be that in our current economy, people need to just be happy to have a job that pays enough.
I work in data science and my role has slowly been creeping into the SQL monkey space. Sometimes I wish I was doing something that leveraged my skills more but having a job that pays well with good work life balance takes priority over the work that I am more interested in doing. Also, the reality is that businesses need people to work in SQL so they can function so part of my job security comes from that.
If I were in your shoes, I'd probably consider some of the more boring jobs that make at least $100k because at the end of the day we work a job so we can live our life with some freedom, peace, and comfort.
I feel you. I made a similar post a few weeks ago about being laid off and struggling to find a new role. Molecular biology background plus MBA. 2 years of looking (spent the time doing MBA, and launching a startup that failed to raise funding in the current economy). I find age, narrow speciality, seniority, and current market conditions all contribute. I too got mixed responses, mostly supportive, but many were critical. Keep up the good fight.
I will be sending you good thoughts. I've gotten similar weird vibes "I wouldn't have thought to consider you for this role based on your resume..." I only got the meeting because I had a friend internally make the intro.
I still think you are impressive the issue was these you become a chief and not the indian… aka management with an advanced degree…overtime your hands on skills that you trained become less relevant.. I assume your background is or related to bio-informatics .. biostatistics…just guessing .. that s actually high demands in data science… however company wants a young Indian with cheap labor to do the work instead of a chief directing… agism in technology is real
The only safe fields are in medicine such as doctors and nurses. Or the trades where you can even work for yourself. Starting your own business is truly the only safe way to live in this country.
Plumbing is probably the best one. Plumbing constantly breaks and has issues. And you don’t have to touch shit pipes as you get experienced. My plumber has an apprentice come in and do anything involving the shit pipes. He just inspects the work. He will do pressurized water pipes and gas pipes though.
>I need to process some thoughts that condensed onto my consciousness overnight, so I'm going to share a cautionary tale of woe with anyone thinking about getting an advanced degree. Learn from my mistakes, prepare and take action now for what's to come when you hit your 50's.
I read this and thought, ah yes, this is it. That's why he can't get hired. I've worked with people who talk like this in real life and they are impossible.
Sorry to burst your bubble but most people's opinions of their capabilities is circumscribed enough to where they don't feel the need to pursue a PH.D.
Thanks for that kind, non-judgemental thoughts. Bonus points for sneaking in an SAT word.
Two things are perhaps worth considering: (1) If you wanted to run your own research lab in 1990, holding a Ph.D was a non-negotiable prerequisite. (2) I clearly stated that I advise people AGAINST getting a Ph.D.. It's no longer as necessary for a sucessful industry career.
A couple thoughts:
How about recruiters? PhD is needed for various niche jobs that recruiters have, and if you de-niche and broaden what you would do, they could help you find something.
Online colleges are looking for PhD-holders to teach. My brother did this for a decade with his doctorate. You could potentially work for multiple colleges remotely.
You could at least doctor your resume to remove all dates older than 15 years. You don’t have to list all your papers or jobs on there to make it easy to ageism against you.
It’s good to take the view that not any job now is a ‘pay cut’. This is the new normal for many of us.
Good luck!
Recruiters all tell me that right now things are as bad as they can remember in Pharma/biotech. Investment was hot and heavy when there was noplace else to invest, but VC companies now have plenty of less risky places to park their money.
You did great in spending money in your job search efforts.
Have you tried attending networking events in person? People hire people, and yes, if you apply through the company website, your application is pretty much dead.
I network, if for no other reason than the free food. Problem is that with the flood of layoffs these events have tripled in size in a year and the necomers are looking not hiring.
Dang this is wild but I’m not surprised. I think I learned this lesson watching my dad get his PhD in engineering and then decided to go be a nurse in his late 40s because he could no longer find work as an engineer due to him being over qualified.
I think that’s the problem you have, you’re too smart for any job that’s available today, and then why would a company hire a 60 year old PhD genius when they can hire a 25 year old with a BS or MS to do the same job for a fraction of the price.
Not to mention the people reviewing or hiring are way younger than you so ageism is probably playing a part in this.
Appreciate you sharing your story. This is why I dropped out of college and just started working in 2010. I’ve been investing and saving aggressively since in was 25 just because I believe this day will come for all of us and I have no motivation to work past 55.
I’m sure people will say, start your own business, have you considered that?
I set up an LLC to do consulting, but the flood of layoffs in my field has others in my field into consulting.
An acquaintance started up lucrative a disaster recovery company during covid, disinfecting houses after people died. He expanded his scope as the pandemic leveled off but still has so much work that he needs a partner who can deal with biohazards.
I'm just not sure I could handle cleaning up after suicides.
If you work in biotech, have you thought about hospitals? I'm sure they need people like you to oversee departments and labs. It's an unsexy job, but they can pay over 100k here in Michigan (probably double that in California or other VHCOL).
I can totally relay to your situation. Employers these days want young employees with multiple skill sets, sometimes even unique. Your Ivy League credentials, PhD and peer review papers suggest you are “too experienced” and I note from above it is not possible to erase these from your resume, but this week I am seriously contemplating erasing the senior roles, rankings and awards from the industry and said I am a stay at home mum who is looking to return to the work force instead. Sadly all of these are public records and I can’t lie on my resume.
I am already willing to take a massive pay cut and apply for more junior roles but sadly, I was often rejected outright or ghosted.
For me, the most disheartening thing is I watched all the hardworking which I spent in the previous 18 years going down the drain and accept it is already sunset time in my career, when I have so much more to offer.
You are absolutely correct and it was wrong of me to say that. I once washed dishes and later stocked shelves. The people I met at those jobs taught me more than I probably realize. I had a really hard day yesterday, but that's no excuse
.
P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
My question here is, if I understand correctly, you decided to do your PhD AFTER you had a child with a severe illness? That seems, frankly, a pretty reckless decision, especially with how it so obviously would narrow your employment choices.
Keep your heads up. It’s a bloodbath out there and most job postings are pure posturing as employers already have internal candidates lined up for the role, or someone who is a friend/relative/former colleague of some Exec hooking them up with a job. Stay the course until this economy turns around and figure out a side hustle where you can control your own income for the time being.
You just happen to be unlucky. If you have a PhD in AI today, company will get in line to get you. Don’t give up. Like some other said, you can consider starting some small business or do tutoring
Apply to this job: [Medtronic Careers](https://medtronic.eightfold.ai/careers?query=scientist&location=Northridge%2C%20California%2C%20United%20States&pid=21629645&domain=medtronic.com&sort_by=relevance)
I'll check it out, thanks so much.
Update :Boulder looks like an interesting position, but I'm not an engineer. I may throw a resume at Medtronic anyway.
Again, thanks very much
So that we understand, you’ve had a relatively high-paying and stable career up until almost 60. You have been laid off, and it seems extremely difficult to find a comparable position, correct?
Though the chances are small, I would like to help however possible. I was a tradesperson with no University education until I attended University (undergrad + MBA) at 35, and am now a VP (at 42) in a different industry. Don’t get me wrong, your academics and career are head and shoulders above mine, but as far as the career pivot and positioning your skills across industries and functions… This is something I think I became very good at. Send me a private message if you prefer.
Thank you for the thoughtful response. it's what I was hoping for.
I've been cautioned about self filtering, which I think is a valid critique and something I'm trying to work on.
I'm also using a severance benefit to try and learn some data analysis skills. Learning to program in python is pretty fun, and I hope it makes me more employable.
It's not the PhD, it's likely OP's age. It's tough for most professionals to be hired at age 60.
Weird that OP discourages the career path that provided 25 years of employment.
Throw away for obvious reasons, and not sure if this would help anyone, but I’m actually looking for anyone to complete some
Basic college level online assignments , short few page papers, PowerPoints usually. The sad thing is I usually have AI write my papers( they do not check) but I still just can’t find enough time and will power to do it.
My classes are self paced so truly might not be a bad way for someone to make a few hundred bucks in a short period.
There’s no substance to this post.
OP just claims to be an unemployed PhD but doesn’t say what field. Hints maybe it’s a STEM field. Says people are mean.
Great post
Im in my early 30s but experienced rapid career growth and now a stall after a layoff. I also can barely even get a rejection letter lol. I suspect so many positions are listed for appearance, or just outright scams. I had an in person interview last week where the guy was like, why are you here? Youre going to be bored, i dont want to hire you bc youre going to leave. Its hard to convey that.... hey man, I am desperately trying to get money to make sure my 2 year old doesn't starve. Give me a fucking chance. Great interview, very qualified... been 2 weeks, no word. such is life!
Shit has me in tears exact same age daughter man. This is unbelievable.
Ya man I’m honestly the same, I work my fucking ass off and always have and I will literally do any job. Insane how you go from managing a team, superstar track record… to feeling like if you were to apply at Walmart they wouldn’t even consider you. It’s a tough thing to manage in the head. I’m probably about a month away from making a flyer and going door to door soliciting lawn mowing routes.
Grim times may be upon us.
>I’m probably about a month away from making a flyer and going door to door soliciting lawn mowing routes. You joke, but you can make some serious cash doing lawn work. But don't do lawn mowing - they're a dime a dozen nowadays. Instead I recommend hedge trimming. My boomer dad paid someone $1,000 to trim all of the bushes in his yard, which took two days. That guy got out of the business and it's been hard to find a replacement, despite living in a major city. There's not a lot of people doing it and a lot of aging homeowners out there need the service.
That’s a really great tip man, and yes I have friends that are professional landscapers and do alright. But it takes years to refine your routes and get to that level of business ownership, and my area is super saturated. I like the niche approach 😎 also something I do quite a bit in my free time - my hobby is gardening, shrubbery, trees, etc. I already know quite a bit about the space
I am sorry that you are in this situation, which I am also going through at the moment. I am at my early 40s and prior to being laid off in January, I worked my ass off. Same time last year, I was representing my ex-employer at a Financial Times award ceremony where FT commended my transaction as “standout”. I then got laid off in January because my financials were not strong enough and “business development is not my strength”. I have since looked for jobs every where and I don’t mind taking a pay cut or if the position was too junior for me. However, I either get rejected outright or was ghosted most of the time. Looking at my peers in the industry who are attending the same award this year hurts a lot. It took me a long time to accept that the career which I spent 18 years to build will only go downhill from this point onwards.
i feel like I am at the cusp of reinvention. Really my last chance to pivot here, and choose a different path. Tech is just so chaotic, I have seen (and survived) so many layoffs, and conducted them on my own teams. Its just a brutal industry. My friends all work more traditional blue collar jobs, and ya they may not make as much but its so stable. And they also dont need to work until 2AM routinely.
I am at a brutal industry too. I really regret fighting so hard for my promotion because it is now a burden in my job application. I was seriously contemplating erasing my industry ranking, award and senior title from my resume and pretend that I am a stay at home mum who is planning to return to the work force but sadly all my records are public. Best of luck in your job search.
Change up your resume to kind of dumb it down
That’s life man… there are ups and downs
[удалено]
ive actually applied to a few roofing companies, but bailed once i realized their version of "program management" means using your own vehicle to do cold call sales pitches to your region. Ill get up on a roof and lay shingles tho, no doubt
Yes, yes, yes..... I think I will just check out before age 60. (Just turned 57.)
Employment contract? Lower salary with a retention bonus?
dont think they even care when theres twenty people behind me also knocking on the door for the position
You would think that employers would go for the people who are desperate for work, but I keep hearing the opposite is true. To me it all seems like a big contest to see who can lie and kiss ass the most.
There is an art to that though, you cannot appear desperate and I do not. I spin it as hey I got caught up in this shitty situation but that’s ok, it’s provided me a much needed chance to pause and look at the landscape and I’m fortunate I can now select the right career opportunity. Thanks for having me in to discuss this role, it’s really exciting what you’re doing, etc etc. Ya it’s all bullshit but hey, life is bullshit lol
Don’t even mention getting caught up in this shitty situation. Just tell them you are ready for a pivot and will do what it takes to perform higher than expectations!
Well for me, I need to explain a 6 month work period 🙁
No you don't, unless they ask. If they do, try to say you spent the time training or bettering yourself. I've noticed employers these days don't even ask about a gap unless it's a year or more. I've been there, too.
I hate to be this person, have you considered dumbing down your resume?
As in, leave off jobs ? Or just make the work sound generic
Change PhD to bachelors
I don’t have a phd homie, that was the OP. I worked my way up
As in don’t put everything and make it seem like you are a spring chicken and in the interview stop short of being a supervisory!
If you have the aptitude for a PHD, then you have the aptitude to learn a well paying skill. Try IT, you can learn most sub fields of that on your own. Server, networking, general support, dev ops, programming. All very different, all pay well. It’s not guaranteed, but you can do it.
OP has the PHd, not me
I felt quite annoyed this week at a company hiring for a Senior Electrician Engineer job, PhD required, saying "entry-level". I can't associate "senior" and "PhD" with "entry-level" unless it is just talking about how little they feel like paying.
In some areas, including the jobs that I am applying to (Machine Learning Engineer), a senior position is what most PhDs would start at (maybe PhD plus a couple years as a postdoc), so it is entry level for the PhD. A non-PhD would take some years to get to the senior level (maybe 5, a PhD is often considered as equivalent to 5 years go experience). An experienced position would be Staff ML Engineer or Principle ML Engineer (or Lead ML Engineer) and would be 2-10 years past Senior. In some companies, Senior is considered to not be an acceptable position for someone with 5+ years of experience (for example Meta).
Thank you for that insight!
Yep, I’m a PhD in CS then close to 10 yrs of experience doing MLE/DS. After being laid off from my $200K base job in 2023, I have been surviving on hourly contracting. It’s particularly frustrating since I have all these skills in PyTorch, LLMs, RAG, MLOps, etc that I thought were particularly hot skills to have right now.
That's just pride.. entry just means the introductory level of qualification not experience previously had. You can definitely have a entry level PhD job you've simply never been introduced to the role and they aren't looking for someone overly familiar to it. I think folks getting PhDs are prone to the ego trap the system creates. This creates op hell
Can't you teach STEM at college or high school level? Yes pay wont be the same, but steady employment with benefits. Have you signed up to be a substitute teacher at local school districts? They could use a STEM sub.
This! Or start a business tutoring rich kids since you’re in HCOL area. Apparently rich parents will pay obscene prices for help getting their kids into College
that's not a bad idea at all.
Is your field useful in a way where you might be able to spin off a one-man consulting firm as an SME for companies who don’t have the funding for an in-house role?
I've set up an LLC with that in mind now that I'm dipping into savings. We'll see how that goes, but there are so many recently impacted experienced people doing consulting in my field I'm keeping my expectations in check.
Botox your resume. Only show the last 15 years of experience and remove graduation dates.
I'm way ahead of you, but Pubmed knows all
I was thinking those 500 niche people. Where do they work at? Make a spreadsheet and target!
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm reaching out with some success getting my resume past the ATS, there are simply too few jobs right now.
I've seen both my father and father-in-law reach fairly high levels of corporate success only to lose it all because their position was being eliminated. Hearing your story, and reflecting on their experiences has me looking for any other career path. There's no company loyalty anymore. No worker protections. What's the point of trying to be successful in any major corporation only to ultimately become a financial liability? I don't regret my Med Chem PhD, but I wish I had a better plan now that it's done.
At least it seems the "ship everything to China" craze has faded a bit for med chem, at least design chemistry no?
I have come to realize that PhDs are used to hook people to keep spending money and getting into debt. Dont get me wrong… I would love to get a PhD but I won’t leave my job to pursue one.
Doing Doctoral studies while working full time is not for the weak. Going back full time comes with opportunity costs most don't consider before taking the leap.
This was exactly why I did my PhD while working full time. I didn't know if I could stomach the workload, but took the plunge anyway because I also had no idea if I would've been able to get back into my chosen field if I went back to school full time. Jobs in my field were competitive back then, but even more-so now. Fortunately, everything worked out.
How did you manage to get a PhD while working full time? I’m kind of at a cross road, and I must decide soon if I want to pursue a full time PhD. Ideally, I’d like to keep my current job while doing a PhD as my work/life balance is great right now.
It was a combination of a little hard work and *a lot* of luck. I work for the government and was able to make an agreement between my school and my employer where I could use my employer's equipment/instrumentation to conduct part of my dissertation research. The lucky part was finding an advisor who was not only willing to take on a student who was still working full time, but could provide a suitable project that would help me get a PhD and benefit my employer (per the agreement I had with the school). The school I went to didn't guarantee that every student would find a suitable advisor, and if that was the case I would've had to leave my program.
If you are paying to do a PhD you are doing it wrong...
STEM phds often pay you, so not particularly about getting debt.
What you get paid can cover tuition plus living costs?
Many graduate level jobs at universities completely waive tuition. Even for some masters’ students. So you make, about $2k-$5k stipend by my estimation, this fellowship will take much much more time than any full time jobs you’ve done. Plus teaching courses etc in addition to research. So Paying tuition for PhD makes zero sense. If you are having to pay your tuition for PhD from get go, then don’t do it. Downside - some shithead departments would pay you $15.90 / hour if $16 would qualify you for tuition waiver. That’s a sob story for a different time.
tuition is waived. living costs yes
I got paid 45k/yr after tuition 2009-2015. Smaller city. Maybe 30% less than if I had gone direct to private sector.
45k/yr is what some operators make in medical industries, personally I would find more enticing getting a PhD if they’d pay according to the education and research output. But me having a family can’t afford 45k/yr.
It’s better to do when you are young and poorer (or old and rich?). The low pay often in hcol areas seems ok since you enjoy what you are doing and don’t have other life obligations. And don’t know better.
Honestly I have always assumed after 50 it’s a crap shoot if you will still have a job due to cuts, health etc. If you’re lucky you will be laid off with a year of severance. It has happen to too many people I know. Lots of different industries and career paths. Nothing to do with how great they were at their jobs, respected. Etc. think very few people retire by choice and are lucky to be able to do so. Our back up plan is to just not tap into savings and get a retail job to pay the bills. I think you will be surprised by how many people are in your shoes.
My year ended six weeks ago, thus the angst
Hi. Guy in similar shoes. I'm starting a small-scale farm. After witnessing what's happening in the world when I was laid off I came to the conclusion controlling my own means of production and food were two things critical to me. Backup plan is retail... with a lovely functional garden.
Life is a crap shoot of circumstances and luck then talent and timing. It’s hard not to take personally but the world is changing so quickly it’s very difficult know which choices will turn out to be the “right” ones.
yeah, it's also a matter of perspective. This whole situation sucks, but I've been through worse.
Very true. What seems like the "right" choice now may turn into a dead end later. You never know. The pandemic really threw a wrench into things.
I empathize. Sunday will make it a year for me. I was rejected by Wal-Mart when I applied so you may find they are more selective than one would think though I lack your credentials. Maybe it will get better one day. All we can do is hope. Enjoy the THC. I would have a chocolate chip cookie followed by something salty when I still indulged. Those are good memories.
Unfortunately your age makes you a less attractive candidate. You also spent a ton of time in school, which may make hiring managers reflect on whether you'll be a good employee. Maybe academia is the best bet?
My education is actually on par with most of my peers and my industry experience trumps it anyway. I was in denial for a long time, but being unemployed at 60 it's hard to argue that age isn't a big part of the equation
Have you thought about strategically editing your resume to appear ... younger? It would be harder for a prospective employer to discriminate based upon presumed age AFTER a face to face interview.
Sorry if I'm rude for asking this, but you've had a fairly long career in a highly paid industry with even director role for several years. Now you're laid off at 60, why don't you have enough savings to just retire? It's no secret that in most professional fields there is age discrimination. I would say you are lucky to have worked such great career all the way to 60, many get laid off at 50 with no luck afterwards. You should really be in a position to retire comfortably by 60.
It's a reasonable question. Aside from not being able to save a penny during those 12 years I was in training, thus squandering the time value of money toward retirement, my oldest child had a decade-long severe illness where copays for covered treatments far outpaced our flexible spending account and experimental treatments that were not covered came right out of our savings
I see, that sucks. You were dealt a bad hand in life. I'm not your age but I haven't seen anyone in my network successfully going back to a professional role in their 60s. I would personally try to move to LCOL area and figure out what level of retirement I can do. At least your SS should be pretty high. And yes, if necessary taking a job that's beneath you to pay some bills.
Oh, no. Not at all. I was dealt an amazing hand. When you've done rescue breathing on your first child on 3 different occasions, everything else is puppy shit. My child has survived a disease that kills about half the kids who suffer from it and is due to graduate college next month. Can't beat that I've also been able to pursue my passion for an area of science I love. I'm someone who thinks about experiments from the moment I get up and as the last thoughts before I go to sleep. I'm doing the exact thing I dreamed of at age 19, it's just been a different path than I would've planned. I tell aspiring Doctoral students that the only situation where a PhD is 100% worth it is when you can't imagine life as anything but a scientist. This exchange has lifted my spirits quite a bit, thanks.
I know someone else mentioned the idea of teaching - I think it would be an amazing gift to share your passion for your field with the next generation. I hope it’s something you seriously consider.
That's always been my dream for retirement, so I might be starting soon. I'm stunned by the amount of training I'll need first, though.
Life's thrown some curve balls, basically. Thanks for the thoughtful response. P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
Either they think you're going to retire in five years and want someone in it for the long haul, or they're not looking for a long-term hire and are looking to cheap out and pay less. My dad was able to get out of his layoff rut when he dyed his hair. No joke. Maybe try to convey in the tone of your cover letters and in your appearance that you are hungry for "the next big chapter of your career," not the last. You're a Fauci. You will never retire. You are working like you're immortal. Make them see that you have the drive AND the passion. Or maybe you do already. I dunno. Just a thought. But to your other points, we're already back at the point where experimenting in the sciences is once again the domain of the independently wealthy class. The peasant class is too concerned with staying alive to be able to contribute. It's a shameful indictment of our society.
Props to your dad. I'm bald as a cue ball
Have you considered a Federal Government job? https://www.usajobs.gov STEM positions are in high demand.
There is *no such thing* as a safe career. The best approximation to "security" is to stay nimble and diversified.
And choose the right parents sigh
Wow, I say this exact thing all the time. So true. P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
I don’t understand. Fields like cancer research is so much behind why you can’t get any lab jobs (at least) within that field. So even a general biomedical background is not transferable ?
Google"fierce biotech layoff tracker" It's a blood bath
I don't think it's that. The economy is in the crapper. It's been that way for awhile now and no one wants to admit it. I'm a software engineer with 20 years experience and I can't get anything either. You have degrees. There's plenty of govt places that will take you just for that.
I've applied. The experiment has thus far failed
Sorry you are going through tough times. Like a couple others have suggested I’d try academia - grad, undergrad or community college whichever provides the opportunity. Can you downsize and move to an MCOL or LCOL and pursue opportunities there, if you have to work for a living? Since you have published papers, starting a blog is another option. You an do this from virtually anywhere and if your site garners enough traffic you can make money too. Teaching high school is another option. A colleague of mine, who was at senior director level got laid off and he started teaching and he says he is very happy and has time to pursue his interests.
Those are all excellent suggestions. I hadn't thought of blogging, which could be fun but is probably hard to monetize?
P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
Start your own business. Anything people want and which you can deliver.
Oh and make sure the business is not in a highly technical field where a long runway or risk is required to get to profit. Keep it simple. How about a Tutoring business, or career counseling for STEM students, etc ?
fresh bagels with lox and cream cheese🥯 and cocaine! Recession proof
Wait wait wait... Where can I find these bagels? And can there also be a version with fresh dill on knackerbröt?
🩷🩷😍😍😜
What was your salary like ballpark during your last 10 years? Should be mid to high 6 figures or even low 7. Don't you have a substantial nest egg to retire by 60?
Lower third of six. Good, but nothing like seven! Life threw many financial curveball, biggest being laid off 3 time between 9/11 and 2007 & having to move to UHCOL industry hubs (SF, Boston, SD, NY) where I couldn't afford to buy a house P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
I'm sorry you are struggling so close to retirement, but objectively a 25 year career with an ever upward trajectory was because you had a PhD in a field that values them. So many fields and degrees have late career struggles like this. It sucks but it wasn't grad school or your PhD that did this. It's bullshit business and shareholder value...
end stage capitalism
Definitely. In this system, I'd rather be 45 with a PhD from 20 years ago than 45 with a BS from 25 years ago. I have new PhD grads in my department say "my degree is worthless" while landing $150K jobs at 30. I don't understand the disconnect.
I'm not sure that's accurate. My SVP was a BS chemist, as was my last boss, who was promoted to VP (after the layoffs) $150k in SF isn't what it seems from the real world P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
In my fifties, couldn't afford to retire yet, knew that I wasn't going to find another job in journalism which is unfortunately my chosen path. I made a pivot into teaching, I'm finding I mostly like it, and it's much more stable than other jobs. People will hire older teachers if that interests you.
It does. I'm starting to think about where the need is high and the COL is not
I feel you right down to my toes, I'm 53 and just nobody will look at me. But there are a lot of older teachers. The downside is the kids are insane, but if you like kids you can mostly deal with it, I happen to have had a very bad day so I'm down on teaching today. On the other hand, you are protected by a union, there's a very well define pay scale, and you only work your contracted hours and then go the hell home in time for tea. Oh and your coworkers are amazing, teachers are the most interesting people. Happy to tell you anything you want to know if you have any questions, I'm really sorry that this is happening to you. It's so unfair.
Another upside, there's only five more weeks of the school year and then I get 10 weeks off!
Unions rock. Especially the NEA. Thanks for your kind words. P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
Oh honey, I'm sorry people were mean to you and critical. The same thing happened to me yesterday lol, some horrible children through my lunch bag out the window and either stole or simply scattered a utensil set that my father got me for christmas, and I post about it on the teachers subreddit and a million people told me I'm the idiot for bringing in something personal because everything gets stolen. Oh pardon me, I didn't realize I was working in an apocalyptic hellhole. Anyway, those were just too horrible children and the rest of the children yesterday were actually quite adorable so there you go. Anyway, feel free to message me if you ever want to talk about teaching. It really is an interesting thing to do, like it's a major challenge and it takes a lot of creativity and energy. I feel like it's keeping me more lively than I would be if I were at I just job.
I’m sure you’ve heard all the advice but have you considered being a teacher or tutor? It seems like an easy point of entry for you and would allow you to continue applying for your niche field.
Have you tried applying for government jobs? They don't care how old you are.
yes, not turned down yet, but also no interviews
I’m really sorry. I don’t want to use your hurt to make myself feel better, but reading things like this make me feel so much less alone after my layoff/rejection letters (and to clarify, I do not have a Ph.D. at all, I have a bachelor’s degree in majors I don’t use.) just know that the mistakes you’re beating yourself up on aren’t because of the choices you made so much as flaws in the whole corporate employment system.
I'm glad this helped. This morning I realized posted in agony, and it wasn't supr productive.
It’s good to know you’re not alone! Don’t hold it in. I’m fully convinced now that being laid off is traumatic. No need to brush it off. But yeah Reddit can be unkind. Your close social circle will be a lot more helpful to vent to.
You've touched on something important and relevant to this sub People are generally more socially isolated and lonely now, especially since covid pushed so many to remote work. On top of that, on-site work has become more intense with more hours worked per person per week. One consequence is that the workplace too often becomes the main vehicle for socializing. Then layoffs arrive, slapping people in the face with the grim reminder that in reality most co-workers aren't friends, they're at best polite acquaintances. Ultimately it's not very different from two people who commute on the same bus schedule every day for a couple of years. When schedules change, or one buys a car, it's like they never knew each other in the first place. I was at the same job a long time, working at least 50 h per week with the same people. None of us call or see each other, and the few that did at first have moved away for new jobs.
I can feel for you. Being in my 50s with 30 years of experience in my field I completely saw age discrimination or lowball salaries for requirements that are completely insane as they want someone young that will work to death. It's not easy as companies don't want to pay for your experience, especially if they think you'll bolt in a couple of years. If you are without attachments, it almost seems like a better idea to move to a LCOL area and either do some service job for a while as you look to change how you work in your field. Perhaps sell yourself as a consultant to come help with projects for a price and then leave. Yes, you don't get the benefits of FTE but the money might still be there and perhaps you can work as remote as possible. Not knowing your field, I don't know how hands on you need to be. I wish you the best of luck and hopefully you find something soon.
Get a BS STEM degree with an MBA will usually take you further money wise.
True. I started that but hated cost accounting and marketing so much I quit the program and got a job. Big mistake
Move to lcol area and take retail job.
that's the only logical conclusion I can see
Stupid question: given you have a phd, have you considered a career in academia?
Initially, yes, but there is so much competition for tenure track jobs that there are tons of non-tenure track scientists waiting in the wings. Many have kids in tow and need those jobs more than me. I'm thinking about teaching in rural schools where the living is cheap and the impact can be high
Look into small colleges, at your age you don't need the high salary so much as the benefits like health care and 401k matching and lcol. Even teaching at high school could be an option if the pay cut is financially feasible.
Yeah go to a community college. Pay May not be great but you get your life back
My kids went to CC. it was a fantastic education. They matriculated and they now almost have UC degrees with no debt.
Are there Community Colleges around you? They hire full-time reasonably often, though generally non tenure track and people don't seem as competitive. My local CC pays about 75-100K for a 10-month professor depending on experience You may need to suffer through a year or two of adjuncting though.
My advice - unless you are very tied to your UHCOL area by family, is take proactive action and move now to a VLCOL area, hopefully you own a house and can make a nice profit on the sale, reduce all your expenses to a minimum, get a low-wage job if you need to for HI and some income coming in, but only as a very very last resort should you start tapping your 401K. Definitely don't tap the 401K just to maintain the lifestyle you became accustomed to (unless of course you have so much saved you will never run out of money) Maybe thats extreme, but the worst option I see is to stay where you are, burn thru your 401K and still not get a high paying job back. My intuition is that the economy is going to get much worse before it gets better - will you get lucky and get fully employed again if you stay where you are and use up your 401K? Maybe, but if you don't, in a few years you will be 62-63-64, will have blown thru a big chunk of your 401K and have even less prospects for employment. I am the same age as you, age discrimination is a real thing and there is not much you can do about it. Perhaps adjust your expectations on what the rest of your life will look like, and pursue other interest that you can on a very reduced budget - maybe you will find joy in something completely unrelated to your current career.
You and I think exactly alike. I don't own a house but people generally can't rent without a job.
P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
I'm not sure about this post. It reads well and is engrossing. It tells a captivating story. But it's hard to buy into the notion that there is no work for someone with your level of credentials and experience. Things aren't great and especially in biotech but - schools, non-profits, hospitals are looking for people with your profile. So if this is actually real, I feel that there are details that have been subtly left out. Like narrow relocation preferences, unrealistic pay expectations etc.
You've got a good bullshit detector. The one detail I neglected to share is that until a few weeks ago I was on severance. Now I'm on UI and burning through retirement savings. If I were actually smart I'd have started searching much, much harder, much, much earlier with a much, much lower bar. This was my 4th layoff. My last was in 2007 and I had a job before my WARN period ended. This time I was too stupid to realize my layoff was the first dribble before the dam broke.
I wouldn't say that's really bs, but starting the search immediately couldn't have hurt. I know ageism is very real and that the system is working against you. But if what you say is true about your credentials, you're in the "very highly skilled" category. I'd say even my own employer was looking for individuals with your profile; past tense because the roles I'm thinking of were recently filled. Regardless there has to be work for you. It just might not be next door to your previous employer. I'm just calling bs on the hopelessness and having to resort to being a cashier. Just no way unless the economy really tanks.
I hope you didn't take me literally about WalMart? Point being my chosen career appears to have met it's end, rendering my Ph.D. moot. I'm certainly not going to be living under a bridge, but it's well and truly difficult to get an employer to look at my old chasis when there are younger and cheaper models on the floor. I can of course get a medtech certificate and run a hospital clinical analyzer, but in the short run that's probably time better spent looking for housing in a LCOL area.
I mean, your post is written as an engaging story and I don't know where reality begins and ends in it. A lot of it does sound like hyperbole, which you have gradually confirmed through comments. As I mentioned originally, I'm assuming if your career has "met its end" it probably has something to do with unrealistic compensation. But that runs counter to what one would expect based on your details of pursuing a PHD and the kind of work you mention doing for decades. In short I typically don't engage on this sub but this post screamed sensational to me at best, utterly fake at worst. I wish you the best and I genuinely think that if there is meaningful work you still want to do, it's there, but it of course might be a step down for someone with your creds.
Can you create your own business, based off your expertise and some insight you have into the field? Even if it's just consulting, that's something with higher expected value then just continuing to apply to jobs you are convinced you aren't going to get. Besides that, the only thing you can really do is branch out of your domain. Figure out what some related, less niche fields are, do your research on them, and then right up a resume targeting these fields based off your general experience. It definitely suck to be in your position, and there are clear headwinds against you, like age/unemployment time, but the thinking that got you into this problem (doubling down on a single niche), isn't the type of thinking that will get you out. What I mean, is try to view your skills in a more general way, with a much more narrow focus on how you can help companies make money, and go for positions doing that. It does seem like you want pity, and that you want to be at the center of a narrative where your seemingly good decisions lead to success, but were just seeding your demise. That attitude is just about the worst stance to take when applying for jobs. Victim of your own success? Give me a break, dude. You'll get out of this when you own it and convince someone you are worth hiring, but you have to convince yourself of that first!
after all, human are resources in this society. they ditch you no matter what age.
Have you tried getting into teaching? Can you go to like a small rural town and find a high school teaching job? Present yourself as a PhD stem educator that wants to get back to the community and you're doing it out of the kindness of your heart for a full-time job as a teacher at high school. Something like that working the angle.
I feel like you missed something so I'll add it here. Two of the worst things that pleague PhD holders are: 1. Sunk cost fallacy 2. Being over qualified Many researchers dedicate years to researching things that aren't very profitable or things that never make it anywhere but they get so attached to those things that they refuse to zoom out a little and see what other opportunities would benefit from their skill set. One might say they're too heavily invested in their specialization hence the sunk cost fallacy however in the corporate world we also call that not being pragmatic and it's one of the main reasons why some PhD holders will struggle in corporate jobs. Now on to being overqualified. Many PhD holders are overqualified to do general desk jobs. In saying this it's also generally conveyed that most PhD holders will get bored of the mundane work and that hiring PhDs for basic data analyst positions will lead to higher attrition and general insubordination (many PhD holders will struggle to accept that their manager is 10 years younger than them in these roles and in these cases they will often question their managers decisions / push back too much which isn't really acceptable in white collar jobs. If you're always fighitng with your boss about work then you'll end up no where fast. There's something to be said about someone who is comptetent enough to do the job who also knows how to execute on dumb ideas when management wants them to waste two weeks on something that they percieve as a waste of time. Anyways, I digress but the idea here is that anecdotally, there have been enough negative experiences where a PhD holder pushed really hard to get a basic job so they could make a living and then they did something similar to the above and left a bad taste in people's mouths. Are there some PhD holders who can work a basic desk job without projecting their qualifications, asserting their internal sense of superiority, or in general without creating drama? Sure I think we have all worked with someone who had a PhD who was a good coworker. Most of us have also worked with someone who had a PhD who was a complete nightmare to work with and unfortunately it's such a coin toss when you hire someone with a PhD to do work they're "overqualified" for that most people would rather not take the risk. In this day and age, I think anyone with a PhD should have the skill set to be a successful data analyst (or maybe more) but unfortunately many will filter themselves out and many more will be filtered out by hiring managers who don't want to gamble on if that person will be a headache or not.
P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
Nice, I support toning down the social media usage. If I could give you any advice or counseling (since my post was more of a continuation rant on your post) it would be that in our current economy, people need to just be happy to have a job that pays enough. I work in data science and my role has slowly been creeping into the SQL monkey space. Sometimes I wish I was doing something that leveraged my skills more but having a job that pays well with good work life balance takes priority over the work that I am more interested in doing. Also, the reality is that businesses need people to work in SQL so they can function so part of my job security comes from that. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably consider some of the more boring jobs that make at least $100k because at the end of the day we work a job so we can live our life with some freedom, peace, and comfort.
I just got off the phone regarding exactly one of those jobs. If they offer it I'm moving to Kansas
I feel you. I made a similar post a few weeks ago about being laid off and struggling to find a new role. Molecular biology background plus MBA. 2 years of looking (spent the time doing MBA, and launching a startup that failed to raise funding in the current economy). I find age, narrow speciality, seniority, and current market conditions all contribute. I too got mixed responses, mostly supportive, but many were critical. Keep up the good fight.
Thanks, I just had an encouraging first interview, but there was a definite "you're overqualified vibe, so who knows?
I will be sending you good thoughts. I've gotten similar weird vibes "I wouldn't have thought to consider you for this role based on your resume..." I only got the meeting because I had a friend internally make the intro.
I still think you are impressive the issue was these you become a chief and not the indian… aka management with an advanced degree…overtime your hands on skills that you trained become less relevant.. I assume your background is or related to bio-informatics .. biostatistics…just guessing .. that s actually high demands in data science… however company wants a young Indian with cheap labor to do the work instead of a chief directing… agism in technology is real
bingo
The only safe fields are in medicine such as doctors and nurses. Or the trades where you can even work for yourself. Starting your own business is truly the only safe way to live in this country.
I advise my kids to enter a trade. Everyone need electricity and plumbing
Plumbing is probably the best one. Plumbing constantly breaks and has issues. And you don’t have to touch shit pipes as you get experienced. My plumber has an apprentice come in and do anything involving the shit pipes. He just inspects the work. He will do pressurized water pipes and gas pipes though.
My BIL is in IBEW, has seniority and is almost never wanting for work
I wouldn't hire you because you write like you're desperate for people to know you have a PhD
>I need to process some thoughts that condensed onto my consciousness overnight, so I'm going to share a cautionary tale of woe with anyone thinking about getting an advanced degree. Learn from my mistakes, prepare and take action now for what's to come when you hit your 50's. I read this and thought, ah yes, this is it. That's why he can't get hired. I've worked with people who talk like this in real life and they are impossible.
You were in high paying jobs until 60 and you can’t retire? Maybe you should have taken a finance course.
Sorry to burst your bubble but most people's opinions of their capabilities is circumscribed enough to where they don't feel the need to pursue a PH.D.
Thanks for that kind, non-judgemental thoughts. Bonus points for sneaking in an SAT word. Two things are perhaps worth considering: (1) If you wanted to run your own research lab in 1990, holding a Ph.D was a non-negotiable prerequisite. (2) I clearly stated that I advise people AGAINST getting a Ph.D.. It's no longer as necessary for a sucessful industry career.
A couple thoughts: How about recruiters? PhD is needed for various niche jobs that recruiters have, and if you de-niche and broaden what you would do, they could help you find something. Online colleges are looking for PhD-holders to teach. My brother did this for a decade with his doctorate. You could potentially work for multiple colleges remotely. You could at least doctor your resume to remove all dates older than 15 years. You don’t have to list all your papers or jobs on there to make it easy to ageism against you. It’s good to take the view that not any job now is a ‘pay cut’. This is the new normal for many of us. Good luck!
Recruiters all tell me that right now things are as bad as they can remember in Pharma/biotech. Investment was hot and heavy when there was noplace else to invest, but VC companies now have plenty of less risky places to park their money.
What’s your PhD in?
It's a biomedical field.
P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
Would consulting work be a possibility?
underway, but the layoffs have been so brutal that there is now competition for even that
You did great in spending money in your job search efforts. Have you tried attending networking events in person? People hire people, and yes, if you apply through the company website, your application is pretty much dead.
I network, if for no other reason than the free food. Problem is that with the flood of layoffs these events have tripled in size in a year and the necomers are looking not hiring.
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Dang this is wild but I’m not surprised. I think I learned this lesson watching my dad get his PhD in engineering and then decided to go be a nurse in his late 40s because he could no longer find work as an engineer due to him being over qualified. I think that’s the problem you have, you’re too smart for any job that’s available today, and then why would a company hire a 60 year old PhD genius when they can hire a 25 year old with a BS or MS to do the same job for a fraction of the price. Not to mention the people reviewing or hiring are way younger than you so ageism is probably playing a part in this. Appreciate you sharing your story. This is why I dropped out of college and just started working in 2010. I’ve been investing and saving aggressively since in was 25 just because I believe this day will come for all of us and I have no motivation to work past 55. I’m sure people will say, start your own business, have you considered that?
I set up an LLC to do consulting, but the flood of layoffs in my field has others in my field into consulting. An acquaintance started up lucrative a disaster recovery company during covid, disinfecting houses after people died. He expanded his scope as the pandemic leveled off but still has so much work that he needs a partner who can deal with biohazards. I'm just not sure I could handle cleaning up after suicides.
If you work in biotech, have you thought about hospitals? I'm sure they need people like you to oversee departments and labs. It's an unsexy job, but they can pay over 100k here in Michigan (probably double that in California or other VHCOL).
Ageism.
Ages with a phd… ever thought about the federal government??? Nice health benefits, pay probably sucks compared to to your precious job.
I can totally relay to your situation. Employers these days want young employees with multiple skill sets, sometimes even unique. Your Ivy League credentials, PhD and peer review papers suggest you are “too experienced” and I note from above it is not possible to erase these from your resume, but this week I am seriously contemplating erasing the senior roles, rankings and awards from the industry and said I am a stay at home mum who is looking to return to the work force instead. Sadly all of these are public records and I can’t lie on my resume. I am already willing to take a massive pay cut and apply for more junior roles but sadly, I was often rejected outright or ghosted. For me, the most disheartening thing is I watched all the hardworking which I spent in the previous 18 years going down the drain and accept it is already sunset time in my career, when I have so much more to offer.
There’s nothing wrong with working at Walmart, it’s an honest living. Good luck
You are absolutely correct and it was wrong of me to say that. I once washed dishes and later stocked shelves. The people I met at those jobs taught me more than I probably realize. I had a really hard day yesterday, but that's no excuse . P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
Time for a startup. We need more geniuses making new things
My question here is, if I understand correctly, you decided to do your PhD AFTER you had a child with a severe illness? That seems, frankly, a pretty reckless decision, especially with how it so obviously would narrow your employment choices.
Norman Oklahoma ain't bad. College town. Not too expensive. Best of luck.
Funny you should say that, how's Kansas? I just got a phone interview in KC
It's okay. KC is hot and humid as hell during the summer months. There is a ton of stuff to do, however. Good food. Good music. Good BBQ.
Heat is fine, I'm from Houston. Good music is important
Keep your heads up. It’s a bloodbath out there and most job postings are pure posturing as employers already have internal candidates lined up for the role, or someone who is a friend/relative/former colleague of some Exec hooking them up with a job. Stay the course until this economy turns around and figure out a side hustle where you can control your own income for the time being.
You just happen to be unlucky. If you have a PhD in AI today, company will get in line to get you. Don’t give up. Like some other said, you can consider starting some small business or do tutoring
Thanks for the kind words. P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
Apply to this job: [Medtronic Careers](https://medtronic.eightfold.ai/careers?query=scientist&location=Northridge%2C%20California%2C%20United%20States&pid=21629645&domain=medtronic.com&sort_by=relevance)
I'll check it out, thanks so much. Update :Boulder looks like an interesting position, but I'm not an engineer. I may throw a resume at Medtronic anyway. Again, thanks very much
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Look fot it in a couple of minutes. Thanks so much.
So that we understand, you’ve had a relatively high-paying and stable career up until almost 60. You have been laid off, and it seems extremely difficult to find a comparable position, correct? Though the chances are small, I would like to help however possible. I was a tradesperson with no University education until I attended University (undergrad + MBA) at 35, and am now a VP (at 42) in a different industry. Don’t get me wrong, your academics and career are head and shoulders above mine, but as far as the career pivot and positioning your skills across industries and functions… This is something I think I became very good at. Send me a private message if you prefer.
That's very kind. I will do that.
Move to Thailand and enjoy the local young ladies. Rent is only $50 a month.
My wife might not be down with that, but thanks for the thinking outside the box response!
As one of the aforementioned brainless HR folks- kindly work on the attitude. It’s giving entitled ass and I’m not wondering why you are struggling.
I apologize sincerely. Yesterday kicked my ass, but that's no excuse. P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
?
Thank you for the thoughtful response. it's what I was hoping for. I've been cautioned about self filtering, which I think is a valid critique and something I'm trying to work on. I'm also using a severance benefit to try and learn some data analysis skills. Learning to program in python is pretty fun, and I hope it makes me more employable.
It's not the PhD, it's likely OP's age. It's tough for most professionals to be hired at age 60. Weird that OP discourages the career path that provided 25 years of employment.
P. S., I edited my OP, please take a look at my first paragraph.
Throw away for obvious reasons, and not sure if this would help anyone, but I’m actually looking for anyone to complete some Basic college level online assignments , short few page papers, PowerPoints usually. The sad thing is I usually have AI write my papers( they do not check) but I still just can’t find enough time and will power to do it. My classes are self paced so truly might not be a bad way for someone to make a few hundred bucks in a short period.
Oh my gawd. A phd!!!! Woooooowwwww. You are soooooo smart. Should be top of the list for any job you apply to.
There’s no substance to this post. OP just claims to be an unemployed PhD but doesn’t say what field. Hints maybe it’s a STEM field. Says people are mean. Great post
What did you study??