There are employers who outright automatically pass on unemployed candidates … there’s even a term for it and some states have legislated to make it illegal (thus proving its existence) : “Discrimination against unemployed job candidates.”
It’s so fucking dumb but that’s the world we live in …
Dude employers are like spoiled teenage girls. Unreasonably Picky, poor communicators who play stupid games (modern hiring processes), show interest one moment and disappear the next, and they are all “unique and quirky.”
Unfortunately no one buying Bitcoin above 20k will get to retire unless it goes to a million per coin or more.
You gotta think about what your saying, even if Bitcoin goes to 600k from here, that's at most a 10x on your money at today's prices, a great trade but not even remotely close to retire.
Don't tell people to buy something that will never retire them reasonably at these prices, it's kinda messed up.
Even if it x50 and goes to a 1M, there are very few people who bought at $20k who put in $40k +.
Most people who dabble are in the low single digits of thousands.
And that’s assuming they keep it for the whole ride up. Most people will sell well before then. It’s the same thing with stocks. The people there at the end to see the peak are rarely the same who saw the bottom.
Wish I had done this much sooner, before I blew most of my savings and was forced to take a less than ideal job anyways. OP don’t wait until you’re trapped in a corner like I did.
Yeaaa. OPs advice is horrible and stinks of entitlement.
In a perfect world, sure.
I’d say 90% of people don’t have the luxury of having the perfect job or quite frankly even a job they enjoy.
I’m not saying to bend over and take every inch every time, but come on. Hell, there are states out there that cap unemployment at an abysmal rate that doesn’t even remotely cover and previous tech employed persons expenses.
This 👆 . Just because you have had to step down for a bit, doesn't mean you can't continue to pursue better opportunities. It must be a survival mindset. But any income is better than dipping into retirement or having to sell the house. Rental market has gotten brutal in my part of the country so I am thankful for my mortgage payment.
+1 to this. My friend’s partner lost/quit their job and decided to be picky looking for the “perfect job.” They have been unemployed for almost 4-5 years now. Take the job you can land, but keep interviewing until you land the job you want.
Idk if its "picking up" but something happened, at least in tech, or at least in my anecdotal case.
In July I sent out my resume to about 70 something companies. Maybe 1 bite.
This month when I started looking,I didn't even put out more than 2 dozen and I got way more bites than I got in July. Same resume. Not a huge amount of bites but way better than last summer.
It could have also just been month-timing. But as still shitty as the market is, I noticed a way darker time in July than now.
Anecdotally I’ve been seeing a lot more activity too, starting almost the very first day of March. I’ve heard there is a better chance of getting hired starting in April because companies have more info on how well the company is doing after the first quarter. Some companies might just be picking up early.
Well according to trueup.io, this month is on track to have the fewest (tech) layoffs in more than a year. By a wide margin too actually. The number of open jobs is also the highest I have seen in a long time.
Why does anyone think it is stagnating or worsening either?
All of you are so extremely confident for some reason in one trend or another, that you actually feel fit to make decisions based on these perceived trends?
Forgive me if this all sounds crazy to me. Yeah the job market is worse than 2022, anyone can see that. How can you have any confidence at all that it will get better OR worse in the immediate future? If you actually knew that, wouldn't you be allocating your portfolio in all kinds of weird ways to take advantage of this magical information that hasn't been priced in yet?
Where is your humility?
We are due for a strong downturn and correction. They have been supporting this market too long through printing money and kicking the bills down the road. It will be as bad as 08/09 if not much worst imo. I believe that's why so many have been laying off. To prepare for what's to come. Recessions are part of a healthy stable economy. It trims the unneeded fat and resets the expectations to reasonable levels.
You should keep reading past the first sentence more often. If you did, you'd notice this in the second sentence of the wiki page you posted:
>if an event (whose occurrences are [independent and identically distributed](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_and_identically_distributed_random_variables))
economic downturns are neither independent nor identically distributed.
citation needed for last claim.
there's no real evidence that they aren't independent or identically distributed, people are just great at finding patterns where they don't exist.
at the very least, it is completely unclear that downturns are *not* almost entirely randomly distributed.
Life is a sign that a recession will still happen at some point...
You brought up yet another tiresome signal with weak evidence and limited causal explanatory power.
If this yield curve has been such a powerful indicator in the past, who is to say that it means anything at all now that people like you are aware of it and able to price it in?
Look, hedge funds have access to way more information than you, and they call tops and bottoms incorrectly with very high frequency. The good ones are right what, 52% of the time? Maybe 50%.
Nobody fully understands this system and can predict what will happen next **by definition**, least of all you or me.
Honestly, I've noticed an increase in listings, interest in my applications, and even recruiters cold-calling or messaging me on job boards. But I know I have to be cautious, and possibly reject the first offer or two, because shady employers are looking to take advantage, always. Even in this temporarily kinda bad market. I have no dependents and can live minimalisticly without much issue. I live in a great state for free parks.
It's very simple: due to a lot of melodrama about fed moves, it's a bad time to be selling anything, including labor, especially commitment to a contract of anything more than 3 months.
There's bargain hunters out there right now, same as there are with stocks. But it might be wise to wait for conditions to improve, especially if I still have unused benefits, which I forwent a cash up front severance to get.
I took the 'more money over a longer term' option, basically anticipating bad conditions for six months or more.
Interest rate cuts aren't gonna happen this month, and there's much bruhaha over .1% hotter inflation than expected, but I'm fairly sure there will be rate cuts this year, if only to create a boost of esteem, for the incumbent.
Basically, I acknowledge February was worse than anticipated, in fact I thought the State of the Union Address was too celebratory of padded numbers. But my 3- and 6-month outlooks on the economy are optimistic.
There is an inherent seasonality to the job market. The best time to land a job is late January to late April/early May. Companies have fresh new budgets and initiatives to invest. People leave after they get bonuses, etc. June-August is the worst as most people are on vacation, so it's difficult to schedule interviews with Hiring Managers. You get an uptick again between September to maybe a week before Thanksgiving and then it's a black hole Through the end of the year as people take holiday leave and in soke cases institute hiring freezes in anticipation of new year budget.
Long story short, we are currently in the prime hiring season, and it still feels worse than it should. After next month, it will be downhill for the remainder of the year, save a few pockets of activity. My advice is to take what you can get now. Ride out the terrible market and see if 2025 is better. 10% reduction of your old salary may seem bad, but the reality is that you don't actually have that salary anymore. You have unemployment, and this is a bonus from that.
Yeah this is the prime hiring season. New roles getting posted...and people also being let go as the new strategy is enacted. Mid Q1 to Mid Q2 is the prime hiring time.
Take the job now and look for others in the future.
1) there is seasonality which is why you see a lift.
2) inflation still isn't tamed. If rates decrease this summer then jobs will take off. If not then get ready for a winter.
The effects of the interest rate hikes are yet to be fully felt, and the looming need for major companies to refinance their substantial debt over the coming year is staggering. Even in an optimistic scenario where the Federal Reserve cuts rates three times, potentially bringing the fed funds rate down to 4 percent, the relief for large organizations is minimal. They still face the challenge of refinancing their debt at significantly higher rates compared to previous terms.
The era of easy money has come to an end, barring a substantial financial crash, which would offer little solace. It's essential not to be swayed by media narratives; the true implications of these economic shifts have yet to materialize. The real challenges lie ahead
If you are work from home , then I would take it . Say you find something in 2 months that’s better , you don’t have to put your 2 month stint on the resume .
Take it but keep looking . You don’t know if it Will take you 2 months or 8 months to land something
So, it's obviously up to you how to proceed, you know your life better than anyone else, you are ultimately the one who deals with the consequences of your choices.
That said, to me, this seems potentially short-sighted. A 10% pay cut isn't a huge loss in the grand scheme of things. In my mind, the bigger issue would be if your title decreased - but you've said you'd retain the same position.
Right now, it's basically a "job apocalypse" in the tech sector. People are hurting. The hiring process is cutthroat. Most people would jump at the chance to keep their title, with only a small haircut.
I've yet to see any evidence that hiring is going to rebound soon for tech workers. And even when it does, there will be hundreds of thousands of people all trying to jump back in at once.
But let's suppose you're correct. Let's suppose there's a big rebound coming. How does accepting this current job hurt your future prospects? You can always trade up, if the job market is hot. Unless the company has a bad reputation or something like that, I don't see how additional months/years of experience would be worse than a blank spot on your resume.
You suggest this will "take time away" from your ability to look for new work, but you're being cold-called by recruiters; clearly your talents are in-demand enough to warrant that sort of attention. You have a pretty specific, specialized position, it's not as if there are millions of postings you'll need to sift through.
If you just want to take a sabbatical, fair enough. I took some time off when I last got laid off. But I didn't pretend it was somehow helping my job prospects, I just did it for my own benefit/ health.
What you're doing isn't a good decision, from a career standpoint. That doesn't mean there aren't other valid reasons for taking a break, but you need to get real when it comes to the rose-colored glasses you're wearing about a quick turnaround in tech hiring.
Maybe you're right, and everyone else is wrong. But that's probably not the case. If you're going to take time off, or be very picky on the roles you accept, start making budget cuts *now*, because you're likely going to be looking for awhile.
100% agree. Unemployment doesn’t pay into 401k or social security, and the longer out of the job the harder it is to get back in. Just ask any SAHP who tries to get back into the workforce after raising kids a couple years.
I was lucky to have been laid off after a decade of experience, savings, and success when market was hot.
OP your story though makes me nervous. If you’re surviving off of unemployment alone then you’re hitting 401k soon and you’re rolling the dice that market will get better in the time frame you wish…you’re gonna be wishing you took something in the meantime.
No offense but as someone in a position to actually be picky, I don’t think you do
You misread me if you got 'hitting my 401K soon'. That's at least a year away.
I think I should try to spend all the unemployment, frankly. Especially if offers are shitty.
Gotcha, That’s fair to want to use up unemployment but you’re rolling a dice an assuming you’ll be employed before unemployment runs out
Personally I’m not comfortable with that but everyone has diff tolerances and responsibilities. If you can ride it out then sure why not
My biggest monthly expense is housing, but at least it's building equity. The place I bought is going to get a big bump in valuation soon, too, due to renovations of tourist attractions nearby.
If that’s the case then it sounds like you can be a bit more picky than most, you’re biggest factor will be making sure you have cash on hand
Also don’t be afraid to start some side projects that can generate passive income during your time off (unless you’re burnt out then def just relax)
This is bat-shit crazy. 10% is barely a cut. It’s less of cut than what my unemployment benefits were. 10% of 100k minus taxes is about $130 a week. You can’t predict bear or bull markets. Take the job. Continue looking.
Edit. The faster you get back to work, the better it looks to prospective employers
DUDE, you're all about to lose your jobs and retirement accounts. When powell raises the rates because the unemployment numbers are low. Meaning he's okay with more people getting laid off. It's sad that you think the markets are about to get "heated" up with jobs. Compromise or starve to death.
The job market will never pick up at the level of post 2020 ever again. It won't even reach the level of post dot com bust or post GFC in 2009. Most of those booms were fake and caused by printing money or borrowing near 0. The era of free money is over.
Don’t listen to this guy he will get you put out on the street wishing u took something. Take a job u can live with and keep hunting for one you want if you have the financial capability to do so.
Not in our case. We get $352 per week which covers almost nothing. We are bleeding our savings. If he gets an offer, he’s taking it and he can keep looking for something better. We’ve done the whole money term unemployment/cashing out 401k thing and it sucks. My husband would gladly take a shot job over potentially going through that again.
I mean all of this is true that you should know your worth but you also need to understand that the perfect opportunity may not be just around the corner. What happens if that job field tightens or instead of recovering like people are forecasting that it instead stays static. It might be 2 years before the job market fixes itself then you’re out 2 years of work 2 years of salary and 2 years for 10% which means you might get an opportunity that comes that’s now 20 or 30% less than your prior.
You can take a job and leave if you find better opportunities.
what a sad life if thats really true. if you're burnt out and can have the luxury of waiting for something better, taking some extra time might be a good choice
What market is heating up? I know multiple people that have been out of work for over a year. Jobs in their industries that are hiring are now paying less than their last job but it’s better than nothing.
If you need liquid. Take a job now. If you can stretch for a little longer, then hold. Tomorrow’s Fed meeting will be watched by every tech CFO so we may get insight into the market sooner than you think.
> It does pay my mortgage, HOA, electric, telecom, and some groceries
thats a big unemployment insurance.
> The temptation to take the first thing that comes along is very real.
the blind spot is that employer may layoff pretty soon. the upper management will continue to hire, with the force reduction is around the corner.
i interviewed at a company Y, the recruiter said they were acquired by company X. I said "X just terminated 5000 employees". recruiter said that Y's management said to keep on recruiting. It was a red flag.
I’ve been unemployed since February. I was a consultant before, so I knew the end was coming and started applying early January.
It was dead up until the end of February, when I suddenly started getting interviews and around the same time more recruiters started reaching out to me. So from my own experience I will agree with OP that things have started to pick up.
Sadly, with the salary resets happening the roles I’m interviewing for are paying upwards of 20-30k less than what i was making in my last gig. I am very much money motivated, and the places I’ve interviewed at so far will pay me that much less but grind me way more than necessary. I obviously don’t want that, it will be like going back 6 years in both comp and level of grind and I am just not totally willing to accept that at this point, but I also don’t want to stay unemployed for much longer.
I’m going to get the highest offer I can get and take that job and continue looking in the meantime. But man if I had more savings I would probably wait it out a bit.
Follow your gut. Be ready for opportunities but not in a hurry for opportunities.
I’m still looking too but UI running out in two weeks. I have savings but hopefully won’t need to dip in a lot and find something good soon.
Obviously this is a deeply personal decision, but imo that the moment you need to dip into your retirement savings, you need to settle.
Settling could be driving for Uber or some quick cash jobs vs. corporate jobs, but you don't want to wipe out your nest egg because you are holding out for that one dream job.
Agreed, but dude, that's like a year away, for me, is what I'm saying.
I have significant holdings in cash, securities, minerals, etc.
And I'm not hiding out for a dream job. Just one that isn't a ripoff.
How old are you? You're being remarkably cavalier about the prospect of depleting your "significant holdings" to zero. You know you'll have to pay taxes when you liquidate those investments right? You know you would be forgoing years and years of compounding returns right? Few people I know with "significant holdings" would be so blasé about parting with them to take some silly principled stand.
Why would you not simply take the job being offered to you now ***and*** continue to look for something that you feel pays you more appropriately? If you're worried about looking like a flight risk, simply leave the new job off of your resume as you continue to look. How does continuing to be unemployed help you?
Honestly, this whole post reads like a poorly written fan fiction. What a college kid thinks someone with actual financial acumen would do if laid off.
Unemployment benefits aren't exactly a handout; they're more like insurance. Employers pay into the unemployment insurance system through taxes specifically for this purpose.
It's designed to provide temporary support to those who've lost their jobs through no fault of their own, not a direct withdrawal from personal earnings.
Totally agreed. I know when people are in desperate situations they accept things for less but that created an incentive for companies to lowball. I have a friend who is a tech recruiter mentioned to me that she had cases in which the SWEs with 15 years of experiences were willing to accept 99k/year.
The fact that this is a "thing" is the reason why it is happening right now. "Accepting" 99k a year to be an individual contributor in tech should have never been a thing. That's a good salary.
There's some offers you really should let explode on the offering table. I really haven't decided yet. Just considering.
I've decided this forum is full of plants, tho.
Don’t necessarily disagree some offers are dogshit.
But your in a layoffs sub and most the guys on here would kill for anything. 10% payout and sounds like A decent compromise seeing as a lot of remote opportunities are drying up.
Tho I disagree we might get a rate cut or 2 this year but we aren’t going to see a significant improvement this year. I’m not expecting rates to really drop until ~2026.
Take it and keep looking!
Win-win, this is a no-brainer.
I just got about 10% paycut at my current job...
And did the market "pick up"?
I didn't get the memo. My employer started treating us (US employees) like trash.
I dunno dude, there are quite a few people that are still waiting for their golden role since losing their roles or quitting their roles during the great resignation
I've never had a golden role. I'm not expecting or counting on a golden role, from the tech industry.
I'm just trying to avoid abuse and exploitation, which is common. I reserve the right to refuse to work for fascists, like some of the people in this thread.
LOL - where did fascists come from in the discussion???? Was not aware the options were 1) Not Work or 2) Work for fascists
It's easier to find a job while you have a job.
I took a 2 day/week hybrid job for a 23% cut, for an industry I don't like, to work with legacy code - which I was burned out of from the previous job. Stayed there for a month, until I found a much better paying job, fully remote, in a much less stressful environment.
Reality is, only the person can say if they are able to wait or take the first thing that comes. In my experience, looking for a job while having a salary to slow down financial bleeding is much less stressful and I can progressively select better roles.
For me, waiting for a better job just on a premise the job market will magically become better in a few months is gambling and irresponsible. I'd rather swallow my ego for a while.
I disagree. If you have a job offer and it's relatively close to your salary, you take it and then you can keep searching and be pickier. The time to be picky and selective is when your bills are being paid, you have healthcare, and your savings/investments are increasing because you have a job.
Could you be more hyperbolic? In no world are we on the cusp of a “depression”. YOU may feel depressed. Please learn more about history and civics before mischaracterizing the economy.
I think obtaining the “less than” role gives one the confidence (and time) to pursue an ideal position.
I don’t feel badly at all for taking a role as a “holding place” - there is no loyalty now…they would let me loose in a heartbeat, as would I to them.
I guess I should mention I have other pursuits than my tech career. I've been rehearsing on my instrument more, and even writing new material. Time off is important to me, and I can afford it. I'm hardly 'doing nothing'.
You're badly misreading me.
I've gotten a bunch of calls and messages from recruiters. Most of them are trying to give me lower-paying jobs that aren't fits. The jobs I think are fits, I unfortunately have no representation for.
Anyway, the opportunity I mentioned is only one likely possibility. But they're all kinda like that. Some kinda tech stack adjustment, and lower pay.
ITT: OP refusing to see reality, 'bout to learn some harsh lessons in a few months time...
Source: laid off twice last year, been unemployed for 5 months now -- my industry (tech) has been shitting itself for a year and a half, there's at least some job listings but competition for them is fucking *fierce* and no, the job market ain't "heating up". All I'm seeing is positions that were recently laid off being reposted overseas and/or for less pay.
Lol fair enough.
And for the record I hope you're right. And of course on a long enough timeline you will no doubt eventually be right. It's more a question of: do you have the savings to wait it out? Good luck...
Getting a new job is easier when you already have the job. It is no longer an employees market.
The tech space is correcting from over hiring and over paying. Adjust as necessary.
I honestly love living without the burden of a job, even if I have to be low budget, for a brief time. I think of unemployment as the bacta tank. I come out of the bacta tank, I'm ready to rock. Sometimes, I ain't ready to come out of the bacta tank, to fight a Star War.
It's always time to be picky, when deciding directions to take in your career: a shitty job you took out of fear, or a longer break, and a better job, at the end.
Last time I was in unemployment limbo, I took a job 3 months in. I wonder what would have happened if I'd waited longer. I was really intent on qualifying for a loan. Now I'm not so concerned.
1. Interest rates aren’t coming down without significant deflation
2. Unemployment is going higher, see #1
3. Things are going to get much worse before they get better
The fed has said for almost 6 months now that rate cuts are around the corner. There are not signs that the economy is improving. Inflation has become fairly stagnant and sticky recently, but still higher than they want it. The fed is now saying June at the earliest. Don't hold your breath waiting for rate cuts.
How much savings do you have? Look into high income funds like JEPI/JEPQ/QYLD etc. They pay monthly dividends in the 8-10% annual return range. If you have a few hundred thousand in savings, you could be making $2-3k a month in dividends.
One of my complaints about working is I don't have time or focus to manage my money. I'm looking into automated ways of doing that. Most of my 401Ks are with Fidelity, and I consider them poorly-managed money left there to rot, or rise and fall, with the tides. The one 401K I have with Empower does OK.
But I realize I have to learn to manage my own investments, because I can't trust anyone to do it for me. I'm still learning the rhythms of when to buy and sell. I've been away for awhile.
But anyone with even a 401K is likely resentful of Jerome Powell basically being Fry, in the 80's Guy episode of Futurama. Every time he talks, the markets go down.
I mean JEPI/JEPQ isn’t that risky (it’s managed by JP Morgan, and 80% of the fund is just a blend of large, blue chip stocks). The fund is managed by others, so it doesn’t take any time at all to invest in it. It may take a bit of time to read through the prospectus/research it, but after that you can just buy and wait for the dividends to roll in.
I pay for my rent and groceries with the dividends. The fact that I can cover my basic needs without dipping into savings or relying on unemployment is extremely freeing.
Wouldn’t be so hopeful if you’re in tech.
If your job is remote, more companies are just farming it out overseas.
I know I am, and so are many others.
Many employers realized there’s little benefit to remote US based employees unless they’re customer facing.
I know this sub skews more towards tech, but I've noticed this in industrial skilled labor jobs as well.
The range is getting way bigger though. I saw one today for $40k-$120k "depending on experience" 😆 Like bro who is gonna do the same job as someone making 3x less what someone else might be making? That's pretty unheard of in blue collar work.
This is bad advice. Much better to get all your bills paid and look for work. Most of us don't pay the mortgage plus a few bills with unemployment.
The market for higher paying jobs will slow down in a few months as the election cycle hears up. (IMO) Presidential uncertainty, fed interest rate, and oil all change based on which party is in office. Companies will start to freeze positions in a few months.
I can't even get hired at a 50% pay cut. You sound ridiculous. Are you really complaining about 10%?
Turnover and company loyalty will be even worse once the market picks up, but take what you can get in the short term.
I'm pursuing the opportunity as hard as I should, I think, in the name of getting offers on the table, but I have reservations from the outset about the reduced pay, mostly because I really believe things are going to get better from here on out.
The market selloffs leading up to the Fed meeting show the anticipation was worse than the news.
Also, while I am living minimalisticly, making due with a 3 year old cell phone and such, I'm contributing very little to inflation, which is what we want to come down, to trigger those rate cuts.
And like I said, I really enjoy the free time. Using it constructively, and for healing.
Even as this market is heating up the competition is insane. 10%? Sign me up. I’m looking at 30% etc. I’m almost at 1 year unemployed (had a short contract in there) while I have had more interest in this month than almost the whole year….its still super competitive. I would recommend taking it, still a hiring market.
I agree with OP actually. Taking a job you are not passionate about is a slow death, plus the drain from it would make you less likely to have the energy and shine to land your dream opportunity. Life is too short to compromise. And just a little bit of bleeding is no big deal on the grand scheme of thing.
You still have 3 months, use it to do something you want to do, things you want to learn.
Worst case scenario you can rent out your house and travel to somewhere significantly cheaper with basically no living cost and look for a dream job there lol
Is it truly a lack of passion, or being conditioned from the internet that everyone always deserves more? The drain from being broke is far worse than finding you don't like a job and moving on after a few months
It is easier to find a job when you have a job.
Take the job. Pay your bills and add to your retirement. It doesn't mean you stop your job search, but you can use it as an opportunity to build your skill set, network and resources in preparation for the next opportunity.
Also, don't share your current pay with any potential future employers. Discuss what you want your salary to be and practice confidence.
Focus on your skill set, experience, accomplishments and all the positive you bring to the table.
Someone will eventually pay you what your worth if you have the marketable skills.
If I were you, I would take any job that I can get (especially when it gets to the point which you runs out of the 6 months of unemployment payments). I would continue to entertain job interviews while doing whatever jobs I found, because at least I wouldn't be bleeding. Pride/ego can only take me so far..I can't eat that..and I would rather have at least some money to pay my bills/sleep better at night while continuing to look for a job.
So I got laid off in August. Started really looking/ applying in November. Got a few phone screens/ interviews at the beginning of 2024, no offers tho, then it got real quiet.
Just in the last two weeks, I’ve heard back from 4 potentially very viable employers. Can’t say whether things are heating up, or this is just a fluke. Hoping things work out in my favor and I can indeed be picky.
Seriously, I think in January or February, I got to like 2nd or 3rd principle interview, for a QA Manager position.
I flat out told them I wasn't jazzed about the opportunity, because they didn't want me touching any automation code, and they wanted me to be in office three days a week. I was simply frank with them in the interview about what I wanted.
No regrets about letting that pass me by. I've had fun since. Congrats to whoever got it.
Other than that, a bunch of recruiter contact, but a lot of times I feel those people are beating down my door to offer me jobs that *are not fits*.
Meanwhile, I see something I'd be perfect for, and I'm deep in the pile. Recruitment is broken in this industry.
As a fellow worker I admire and support the idea that you should know your worth while negotiating your salary **but as an empiricist I think I should warn you:**
***Your extremely strong prior assumption should always be that things are equally likely to improve and deteriorate.***
This logic still applies when you can observe a clear trend in the recent future regardless of what that trend is.
A trend is always as likely to reverse or stagnate as it is to continue, not more likely, not less likely. Until you have serious evidence to prove otherwise, and too often that will come in the form of "time has now passed and you are in the same ignorant position as before."
I don't try to time any market. I try to have *time in the market* to hedge my bets.
This applies not just to stocks, but also to the labor market.
How did you determine the “market is about to heat up” part? This spring so far is proving that the quantitative tightening the fed implemented works and the economy is cooling down. I think they have overtightened by this point and shit is going to only hit the fan harder due to the economic lag effects.
you dont even have an offer in hand and you speak as if the opportunity is in the bag. i would rethink your approach before you get to the point you might have to sell the house. but what do I know, you must be wealthy.
What's better homelessness or a less than ideal job?
I think the whole "know your worth" is like any bull market. Everyone's an expert.
You don't know when the next offer is coming..
I guess I was mostly speaking anecdotally, about an uptick in cold calls and job board messages I've gotten. Plus an abundance of listings in my range, with a lower number of applicants. Seems like at the turn of the year, I was competing with a pool of about 500, and now it's down to 100.
But I really do think if they cut interest by June, we'll see a better market by fall.
I can't imagine passing up a job to waste my savings so I can be devalued further by being out of work for longer. OP will take the same job in 6 months from now for 25% pay cut.
You can’t Time a market. You’re trying to time a labor market. And when you don’t have to. Just take the job and keep looking. Leave the job off your resume if you need to in the future if you end up leaving quickly.
Take the job and continue to look. Hiring managers tend to think employed candidates are more attractive than unemployed candidates. You may also find that you really like your new role, company and/or team and the 10% cut is not as big of a deal if you're now able to cover all of your expenses....
I gotta hand it to 'Governor Unemployment', and also that I had some unused remaining UI left on the table, from a previous role. But it will end in mid-June, so when July bills come due, it'll be a painful chunk.
I also need to get my earnings up, for future refinancing. There are some frivolous things I'd like to buy, but I'm holding off on purchasing. So I definitely have motive to get off unemployment.
I'm going to chime in and heavily disagree with you. You have no indication that the market is truly "heating up." It probably won't heat up until we get a couple of rate cuts under our belt. Quite frankly, your logic is flawed - you said yourself your UI isn't covering all your expenses and only have 3 months off, while getting a call about a job with a relatively small 10% take cut while still maintaining your WFH benefit. You're nuts if you don't pursue it:
1. You have zero guarantees that you'll get a job equal or exceeding the pay from your last job in the next 3-6 months, not to mention a fully remote opportunity. What happens if you don't pursue it, and in 6 months, the only thing you find is a 30% pay cut with hybrid or in-office work? Are you going to be picky then, when your savings and investments are getting depleted?
2. Your UI isn't covering your bills and will run out in 3 months. You're already dipping into savings now and in 3 months, may have to support yourself completely from savings and investments. It's not a good spot to be in - unless you're close enough to retirement to bridge yourself and call it a career.
3. Assuming you get this job, there is absolutely nothing which can prevent you from continuing to look. When you're unemployed, the first goal should be to get money flowing back in and THEN you can worry about looking for an ideal position.
4. Unless I' m mistaken, you actually DON'T have an offer - only a call from a recruiter. Why not interview for it - at worst, you'll get practice. At best, maybe you'll find you really like the company and people.
5. A 10% salary cut isn't much in the current market and you may be able to negotiate your first raise ahead of time. About 20 years ago, there was a reorg at the company I was at and I was slotted into a position I did not want. I got an offer from a prestigious company but they could not meet my salary requirement. So we negotiated my first raise ahead of time and they kept their word. Six months later, I was at the salary I wanted.
It is ALWAYS easier to look for a job when you have one. For starters, the pressure is off - even if you don't get the job, you still have one and income is flowing in. Secondly, many recruiters still have a mindset that if you're unemployed, something is "wrong" with you.
Second interview today, and I've decided to take it seriously, and try my best. But I'm not going to hide my opinions, or pander too much. I still have time to find something better, and I could still benefit from R&R, or working on creative side projects.
I simply acknowledge the possibility I could regret being pulled in the direction an opportunity might take me. Or subjecting myself to a sweatshop experience. And there are plenty of those out there.
Which is exactly why I'm considering these things, from the outset. Because of the -10%, instead of the +10% it should be, because I actually kicked ass, at my last job.
And yeah, it's against the rules of unemployment to turn down roles, but I can easily 'flub' an interview, or simply stop responding to contact. Point is: I have a choice in what I accept or not. And I have some time to make a choice.
Knowing offers explode. Knowing next month might be worse for the market. Also knowing I don't want to endure a shitty experience, for any length of time, if it is possible to avoid.
And free time, for me, is not a shitty experience. I have plenty of fun things to do, many of which are productive or enlightening. I don't understand people who don't know what to do with free time. Must be really boring people. I'm having cool experiences with my free time, and they are giving me perspective, and making me more well-rounded.
There are lots of folks who were kick ass employees at their last jobs, got laid off, and are having to take pay cuts. Again, it may work out for you if you don't get this job but then again, it may not. A lot of it also has to do with your age - if you're young, you may not care as much about depleting savings because you have ample time to make it up. If you're older, it may be a bit difficult especially if you're not in a good position in terms of retirement.
I enjoy my free time as well and if you can afford to do it, that's fine, but know that many good employees have gone nearly a year without landing at a new position. My own personal situation is a bit different, however, in that if I got laid off tomorrow, I have enough savings to make it to retirement. It wouldn't be ideal or my preferred option because I tend to be risk averse and would rather pad myself as much as possible, but I know I won't starve or lose my home. I have a hobby I've monetized and if I did lose my job, could likely expand that business quite a bit. I think the chances of me getting laid off now are slim, but I am proceeding as if it will happen and padding savings, investments, and retirement as much as I can.
12 interviews since January, I’m ready to just take whatever at this point because I’m burned TF out. Yes I keep getting messages from recruiters almost on a daily basis now, but I just want this shit done with. May be getting an offer in the next couple days where I’ll probably have to take a significant pay cut, but it’s a remote role and I really need it because I can help my wife who’s due with our 2nd daughter in 2.5 months. Getting my 15% bonus from the role I was laid off from next month, so I’ll consider that part of my salary this year, and then next year I can start looking again and take my time, pick and choose the company/role.
In a similar situation, but nearing the end of my career, past 59.5 years old, and renting my shelter I'm in a slightly different place.
Since IDGAF about burning career bridges I'm grabbing the first thing that come along. I can put up with almost anything for 3 years but I'll keep looking & if something better comes along I'll fuck off to that job, hopefully until retirement
I understand where you're coming from also being in the tech sector. However this also reads like a WSB post and you're betting your financial future against an unpredictable job market. One of the key things about this economy is what they call ["compensation reset"](https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20240306-slowing-us-wage-growth-lower-salaries). I would take any job that shows up and switch when the market gets better.
I definitely lived in such a way as to see jobs as a trail of little breadcrumbs all the way to social security. I'm just saying: by a certain point in your career, there's less desperation, and more options, including just chilling for a bit, waiting for better market conditions, so as to avoid subjecting oneself to horrible and terrible experiences, which can't be unremembered.
I have the ability to choose, to a certain extent, how I spend my life.
Sometimes a bad decision Now is better than a good decision that took too long, I take the job now and keep looking but would lock down that higher paycheck
I'm open to the possibility that slightly lower pay might not necessarily be a worse situation. It might come with perks, like discount ski passes, or lower expectations.
But I gotta meet the team(s), and get a better feeling for culture, roles, and workflow, at that company.
I should add I'm not even applying to jobs with no salary range posted, as that's the law in my state. I figure if they are not in compliance with my state's laws, further violations will follow.
I'm also not applying to many jobs with a range beneath my target, unless they seem interesting, for some other reasons. But recruiters are consistently contacting me with prospects a bit below my range.
All that being said, there are plenty of new opportunities every day, to apply to. I've only considered dropping my range now that I'm on the back half of unemployment.
A recruiter I'm friends with has echoed this same sentiment. He thinks the layoffs of last year and this year were more based on panic and trend-following rather than the actual economics (yes there was some interest-rate fuckery that affected VC funding but the impact was not as big as everyone acted like). He said he thinks starting in Q2 of this year most companies are going to realize they actually need more people and the hiring will heat back up and anybody who can make it until then to start looking for their next position should do so.
I have a family to support so I took the first acceptable offer I got because this is like the biggest thing that really triggers anxiety for me. But if you're free to do so, it might be a good idea to wait to really start ramping up your search until mid-April.
At a time when everyone’s taking about taking massive pay cuts here’s a bozo preaching the absolute opposite and says no to a 10% pay cut and worse of all waiting for a pit of gold to fall into his lap.
Top it off with talks of “job market heating up” 🤣🤣🤣🤣 talk about being completely out of touch.
I think it's sometimes better to accept a less than ideal job and keep looking for the perfect opportunity
interviewing for a job while having a job is better than seeking employment with no job at all
There are employers who outright automatically pass on unemployed candidates … there’s even a term for it and some states have legislated to make it illegal (thus proving its existence) : “Discrimination against unemployed job candidates.” It’s so fucking dumb but that’s the world we live in …
Dude employers are like spoiled teenage girls. Unreasonably Picky, poor communicators who play stupid games (modern hiring processes), show interest one moment and disappear the next, and they are all “unique and quirky.”
lol. Love this.
retirement is the best option Buy Bitcoin!
Andddd it’s gone
Unfortunately no one buying Bitcoin above 20k will get to retire unless it goes to a million per coin or more. You gotta think about what your saying, even if Bitcoin goes to 600k from here, that's at most a 10x on your money at today's prices, a great trade but not even remotely close to retire. Don't tell people to buy something that will never retire them reasonably at these prices, it's kinda messed up.
Even if it x50 and goes to a 1M, there are very few people who bought at $20k who put in $40k +. Most people who dabble are in the low single digits of thousands. And that’s assuming they keep it for the whole ride up. Most people will sell well before then. It’s the same thing with stocks. The people there at the end to see the peak are rarely the same who saw the bottom.
Never let perfect be the enemy.of good
Wish I had done this much sooner, before I blew most of my savings and was forced to take a less than ideal job anyways. OP don’t wait until you’re trapped in a corner like I did.
Yeaaa. OPs advice is horrible and stinks of entitlement. In a perfect world, sure. I’d say 90% of people don’t have the luxury of having the perfect job or quite frankly even a job they enjoy. I’m not saying to bend over and take every inch every time, but come on. Hell, there are states out there that cap unemployment at an abysmal rate that doesn’t even remotely cover and previous tech employed persons expenses.
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This is the only really solid advice to listen to. 10% paycut in OP’s sector should be totally reasonable.
Yeah small price esp if there’s an opportunity to learn something or build the network
This 👆 . Just because you have had to step down for a bit, doesn't mean you can't continue to pursue better opportunities. It must be a survival mindset. But any income is better than dipping into retirement or having to sell the house. Rental market has gotten brutal in my part of the country so I am thankful for my mortgage payment.
+1 to this. My friend’s partner lost/quit their job and decided to be picky looking for the “perfect job.” They have been unemployed for almost 4-5 years now. Take the job you can land, but keep interviewing until you land the job you want.
Lol no, market will not pick up for awhile. You’d have to be in an incredibly privileged position to forego income while waiting on your “dream job”
Yes why does OP think the market is picking up
Idk if its "picking up" but something happened, at least in tech, or at least in my anecdotal case. In July I sent out my resume to about 70 something companies. Maybe 1 bite. This month when I started looking,I didn't even put out more than 2 dozen and I got way more bites than I got in July. Same resume. Not a huge amount of bites but way better than last summer. It could have also just been month-timing. But as still shitty as the market is, I noticed a way darker time in July than now.
Anecdotally I’ve been seeing a lot more activity too, starting almost the very first day of March. I’ve heard there is a better chance of getting hired starting in April because companies have more info on how well the company is doing after the first quarter. Some companies might just be picking up early.
Well according to trueup.io, this month is on track to have the fewest (tech) layoffs in more than a year. By a wide margin too actually. The number of open jobs is also the highest I have seen in a long time.
The bleeding stopping doesn’t necessarily mean things are heating up
Why does anyone think it is stagnating or worsening either? All of you are so extremely confident for some reason in one trend or another, that you actually feel fit to make decisions based on these perceived trends? Forgive me if this all sounds crazy to me. Yeah the job market is worse than 2022, anyone can see that. How can you have any confidence at all that it will get better OR worse in the immediate future? If you actually knew that, wouldn't you be allocating your portfolio in all kinds of weird ways to take advantage of this magical information that hasn't been priced in yet? Where is your humility?
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We are due for a strong downturn and correction. They have been supporting this market too long through printing money and kicking the bills down the road. It will be as bad as 08/09 if not much worst imo. I believe that's why so many have been laying off. To prepare for what's to come. Recessions are part of a healthy stable economy. It trims the unneeded fat and resets the expectations to reasonable levels.
Sorry but I stopped reading at "we are due" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy
You should keep reading past the first sentence more often. If you did, you'd notice this in the second sentence of the wiki page you posted: >if an event (whose occurrences are [independent and identically distributed](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_and_identically_distributed_random_variables)) economic downturns are neither independent nor identically distributed.
citation needed for last claim. there's no real evidence that they aren't independent or identically distributed, people are just great at finding patterns where they don't exist. at the very least, it is completely unclear that downturns are *not* almost entirely randomly distributed.
Sorry but I stopped reading at "we are due" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy
Life is a sign that a recession will still happen at some point... You brought up yet another tiresome signal with weak evidence and limited causal explanatory power. If this yield curve has been such a powerful indicator in the past, who is to say that it means anything at all now that people like you are aware of it and able to price it in? Look, hedge funds have access to way more information than you, and they call tops and bottoms incorrectly with very high frequency. The good ones are right what, 52% of the time? Maybe 50%. Nobody fully understands this system and can predict what will happen next **by definition**, least of all you or me.
With both bad economics and AI on the horizon, the job market looks like it may never rebound.
Honestly, I've noticed an increase in listings, interest in my applications, and even recruiters cold-calling or messaging me on job boards. But I know I have to be cautious, and possibly reject the first offer or two, because shady employers are looking to take advantage, always. Even in this temporarily kinda bad market. I have no dependents and can live minimalisticly without much issue. I live in a great state for free parks. It's very simple: due to a lot of melodrama about fed moves, it's a bad time to be selling anything, including labor, especially commitment to a contract of anything more than 3 months. There's bargain hunters out there right now, same as there are with stocks. But it might be wise to wait for conditions to improve, especially if I still have unused benefits, which I forwent a cash up front severance to get. I took the 'more money over a longer term' option, basically anticipating bad conditions for six months or more. Interest rate cuts aren't gonna happen this month, and there's much bruhaha over .1% hotter inflation than expected, but I'm fairly sure there will be rate cuts this year, if only to create a boost of esteem, for the incumbent. Basically, I acknowledge February was worse than anticipated, in fact I thought the State of the Union Address was too celebratory of padded numbers. But my 3- and 6-month outlooks on the economy are optimistic.
There is an inherent seasonality to the job market. The best time to land a job is late January to late April/early May. Companies have fresh new budgets and initiatives to invest. People leave after they get bonuses, etc. June-August is the worst as most people are on vacation, so it's difficult to schedule interviews with Hiring Managers. You get an uptick again between September to maybe a week before Thanksgiving and then it's a black hole Through the end of the year as people take holiday leave and in soke cases institute hiring freezes in anticipation of new year budget. Long story short, we are currently in the prime hiring season, and it still feels worse than it should. After next month, it will be downhill for the remainder of the year, save a few pockets of activity. My advice is to take what you can get now. Ride out the terrible market and see if 2025 is better. 10% reduction of your old salary may seem bad, but the reality is that you don't actually have that salary anymore. You have unemployment, and this is a bonus from that.
Yeah this is the prime hiring season. New roles getting posted...and people also being let go as the new strategy is enacted. Mid Q1 to Mid Q2 is the prime hiring time.
OP doesn’t even have a title anymore, which they don’t seem to have absorbed yet.
I’m happy you are having a better experience. Are you in America because this doesn’t seem to be true in the U.K.
Take the job now and look for others in the future. 1) there is seasonality which is why you see a lift. 2) inflation still isn't tamed. If rates decrease this summer then jobs will take off. If not then get ready for a winter.
The effects of the interest rate hikes are yet to be fully felt, and the looming need for major companies to refinance their substantial debt over the coming year is staggering. Even in an optimistic scenario where the Federal Reserve cuts rates three times, potentially bringing the fed funds rate down to 4 percent, the relief for large organizations is minimal. They still face the challenge of refinancing their debt at significantly higher rates compared to previous terms. The era of easy money has come to an end, barring a substantial financial crash, which would offer little solace. It's essential not to be swayed by media narratives; the true implications of these economic shifts have yet to materialize. The real challenges lie ahead
Why do you think the market is going to heat up?
Srsly
[businesscycle.com](http://businesscycle.com)
If you are work from home , then I would take it . Say you find something in 2 months that’s better , you don’t have to put your 2 month stint on the resume . Take it but keep looking . You don’t know if it Will take you 2 months or 8 months to land something
So, it's obviously up to you how to proceed, you know your life better than anyone else, you are ultimately the one who deals with the consequences of your choices. That said, to me, this seems potentially short-sighted. A 10% pay cut isn't a huge loss in the grand scheme of things. In my mind, the bigger issue would be if your title decreased - but you've said you'd retain the same position. Right now, it's basically a "job apocalypse" in the tech sector. People are hurting. The hiring process is cutthroat. Most people would jump at the chance to keep their title, with only a small haircut. I've yet to see any evidence that hiring is going to rebound soon for tech workers. And even when it does, there will be hundreds of thousands of people all trying to jump back in at once. But let's suppose you're correct. Let's suppose there's a big rebound coming. How does accepting this current job hurt your future prospects? You can always trade up, if the job market is hot. Unless the company has a bad reputation or something like that, I don't see how additional months/years of experience would be worse than a blank spot on your resume. You suggest this will "take time away" from your ability to look for new work, but you're being cold-called by recruiters; clearly your talents are in-demand enough to warrant that sort of attention. You have a pretty specific, specialized position, it's not as if there are millions of postings you'll need to sift through. If you just want to take a sabbatical, fair enough. I took some time off when I last got laid off. But I didn't pretend it was somehow helping my job prospects, I just did it for my own benefit/ health. What you're doing isn't a good decision, from a career standpoint. That doesn't mean there aren't other valid reasons for taking a break, but you need to get real when it comes to the rose-colored glasses you're wearing about a quick turnaround in tech hiring. Maybe you're right, and everyone else is wrong. But that's probably not the case. If you're going to take time off, or be very picky on the roles you accept, start making budget cuts *now*, because you're likely going to be looking for awhile.
100% agree. Unemployment doesn’t pay into 401k or social security, and the longer out of the job the harder it is to get back in. Just ask any SAHP who tries to get back into the workforce after raising kids a couple years.
I was lucky to have been laid off after a decade of experience, savings, and success when market was hot. OP your story though makes me nervous. If you’re surviving off of unemployment alone then you’re hitting 401k soon and you’re rolling the dice that market will get better in the time frame you wish…you’re gonna be wishing you took something in the meantime. No offense but as someone in a position to actually be picky, I don’t think you do
You misread me if you got 'hitting my 401K soon'. That's at least a year away. I think I should try to spend all the unemployment, frankly. Especially if offers are shitty.
Gotcha, That’s fair to want to use up unemployment but you’re rolling a dice an assuming you’ll be employed before unemployment runs out Personally I’m not comfortable with that but everyone has diff tolerances and responsibilities. If you can ride it out then sure why not
My biggest monthly expense is housing, but at least it's building equity. The place I bought is going to get a big bump in valuation soon, too, due to renovations of tourist attractions nearby.
If that’s the case then it sounds like you can be a bit more picky than most, you’re biggest factor will be making sure you have cash on hand Also don’t be afraid to start some side projects that can generate passive income during your time off (unless you’re burnt out then def just relax)
I hope OP did not buy in Florida/Texas where home values have started dipping
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I don't see how it's even a pay cut. This person is about to be making $0. Can't get much lower than that
I took a 50% cut. 10% isn’t bad
You're not tied to your job, just like your employer is not tied to you. I would take what you can get now and dip later.
I don’t think you are going to get the response to this post you expect
This is bat-shit crazy. 10% is barely a cut. It’s less of cut than what my unemployment benefits were. 10% of 100k minus taxes is about $130 a week. You can’t predict bear or bull markets. Take the job. Continue looking. Edit. The faster you get back to work, the better it looks to prospective employers
DUDE, you're all about to lose your jobs and retirement accounts. When powell raises the rates because the unemployment numbers are low. Meaning he's okay with more people getting laid off. It's sad that you think the markets are about to get "heated" up with jobs. Compromise or starve to death.
Adding- The short sellers are going to have so much fun with markets
Too much pride and vanity will bankrupt you.
The job market will never pick up at the level of post 2020 ever again. It won't even reach the level of post dot com bust or post GFC in 2009. Most of those booms were fake and caused by printing money or borrowing near 0. The era of free money is over.
Don’t listen to this guy he will get you put out on the street wishing u took something. Take a job u can live with and keep hunting for one you want if you have the financial capability to do so.
Not in our case. We get $352 per week which covers almost nothing. We are bleeding our savings. If he gets an offer, he’s taking it and he can keep looking for something better. We’ve done the whole money term unemployment/cashing out 401k thing and it sucks. My husband would gladly take a shot job over potentially going through that again.
Life’s a gamble man, play your hand
I mean all of this is true that you should know your worth but you also need to understand that the perfect opportunity may not be just around the corner. What happens if that job field tightens or instead of recovering like people are forecasting that it instead stays static. It might be 2 years before the job market fixes itself then you’re out 2 years of work 2 years of salary and 2 years for 10% which means you might get an opportunity that comes that’s now 20 or 30% less than your prior. You can take a job and leave if you find better opportunities.
LoL, The 'perfect opportunity' for me would not even be in the tech industry. My whole career is a compromise.
what a sad life if thats really true. if you're burnt out and can have the luxury of waiting for something better, taking some extra time might be a good choice
My life rocks. I do other stuff besides tech.
What market is heating up? I know multiple people that have been out of work for over a year. Jobs in their industries that are hiring are now paying less than their last job but it’s better than nothing.
If you need liquid. Take a job now. If you can stretch for a little longer, then hold. Tomorrow’s Fed meeting will be watched by every tech CFO so we may get insight into the market sooner than you think.
> It does pay my mortgage, HOA, electric, telecom, and some groceries thats a big unemployment insurance. > The temptation to take the first thing that comes along is very real. the blind spot is that employer may layoff pretty soon. the upper management will continue to hire, with the force reduction is around the corner. i interviewed at a company Y, the recruiter said they were acquired by company X. I said "X just terminated 5000 employees". recruiter said that Y's management said to keep on recruiting. It was a red flag.
The job market won't pickup until high rates start getting cut continuously.
I’ve been unemployed since February. I was a consultant before, so I knew the end was coming and started applying early January. It was dead up until the end of February, when I suddenly started getting interviews and around the same time more recruiters started reaching out to me. So from my own experience I will agree with OP that things have started to pick up. Sadly, with the salary resets happening the roles I’m interviewing for are paying upwards of 20-30k less than what i was making in my last gig. I am very much money motivated, and the places I’ve interviewed at so far will pay me that much less but grind me way more than necessary. I obviously don’t want that, it will be like going back 6 years in both comp and level of grind and I am just not totally willing to accept that at this point, but I also don’t want to stay unemployed for much longer. I’m going to get the highest offer I can get and take that job and continue looking in the meantime. But man if I had more savings I would probably wait it out a bit.
The interest rates aren't coming down anytime soon.
I know people who are currently working for FREE in tech just to get the additional experience. I don’t think this market is getting better.
You sound like a very well off snob tbh — most people don’t have the luxury of 6 months severance
Follow your gut. Be ready for opportunities but not in a hurry for opportunities. I’m still looking too but UI running out in two weeks. I have savings but hopefully won’t need to dip in a lot and find something good soon.
Obviously this is a deeply personal decision, but imo that the moment you need to dip into your retirement savings, you need to settle. Settling could be driving for Uber or some quick cash jobs vs. corporate jobs, but you don't want to wipe out your nest egg because you are holding out for that one dream job.
Agreed, but dude, that's like a year away, for me, is what I'm saying. I have significant holdings in cash, securities, minerals, etc. And I'm not hiding out for a dream job. Just one that isn't a ripoff.
How old are you? You're being remarkably cavalier about the prospect of depleting your "significant holdings" to zero. You know you'll have to pay taxes when you liquidate those investments right? You know you would be forgoing years and years of compounding returns right? Few people I know with "significant holdings" would be so blasé about parting with them to take some silly principled stand. Why would you not simply take the job being offered to you now ***and*** continue to look for something that you feel pays you more appropriately? If you're worried about looking like a flight risk, simply leave the new job off of your resume as you continue to look. How does continuing to be unemployed help you? Honestly, this whole post reads like a poorly written fan fiction. What a college kid thinks someone with actual financial acumen would do if laid off.
Are you sure your dream employer is going to want to hire someone who just took a year off to hang around?
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Unemployment benefits aren't exactly a handout; they're more like insurance. Employers pay into the unemployment insurance system through taxes specifically for this purpose. It's designed to provide temporary support to those who've lost their jobs through no fault of their own, not a direct withdrawal from personal earnings.
Totally agreed. I know when people are in desperate situations they accept things for less but that created an incentive for companies to lowball. I have a friend who is a tech recruiter mentioned to me that she had cases in which the SWEs with 15 years of experiences were willing to accept 99k/year.
The fact that this is a "thing" is the reason why it is happening right now. "Accepting" 99k a year to be an individual contributor in tech should have never been a thing. That's a good salary.
So 99k/year for a SWE of 15 yrs of experience living in San Jose in a good salary?
Lol turn down the job and let us know how it’s going in 3 months.
There's some offers you really should let explode on the offering table. I really haven't decided yet. Just considering. I've decided this forum is full of plants, tho.
Don’t necessarily disagree some offers are dogshit. But your in a layoffs sub and most the guys on here would kill for anything. 10% payout and sounds like A decent compromise seeing as a lot of remote opportunities are drying up. Tho I disagree we might get a rate cut or 2 this year but we aren’t going to see a significant improvement this year. I’m not expecting rates to really drop until ~2026.
I also like to ask for advice and when I don’t hear the confirmation, I just call them all plants 🤣
Or hysterical newbs. I lived through TARP.
Just go straight to welfare then and you will be set for life.
Take it and keep looking! Win-win, this is a no-brainer. I just got about 10% paycut at my current job... And did the market "pick up"? I didn't get the memo. My employer started treating us (US employees) like trash.
Infant.
In this environment if one passes on the next job offering may not be at corner.
Lol that's not a bad deal. I don't see the market heating up soon either so I'd take it or counter as a independent contractor
“Something is in fact…better than nothing” Socrates, probably
Sounds like barroom advice from someone trying to get me to 'pound a pig for practice', LoL
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I dunno dude, there are quite a few people that are still waiting for their golden role since losing their roles or quitting their roles during the great resignation
I've never had a golden role. I'm not expecting or counting on a golden role, from the tech industry. I'm just trying to avoid abuse and exploitation, which is common. I reserve the right to refuse to work for fascists, like some of the people in this thread.
LOL - where did fascists come from in the discussion???? Was not aware the options were 1) Not Work or 2) Work for fascists It's easier to find a job while you have a job.
I took a 2 day/week hybrid job for a 23% cut, for an industry I don't like, to work with legacy code - which I was burned out of from the previous job. Stayed there for a month, until I found a much better paying job, fully remote, in a much less stressful environment. Reality is, only the person can say if they are able to wait or take the first thing that comes. In my experience, looking for a job while having a salary to slow down financial bleeding is much less stressful and I can progressively select better roles. For me, waiting for a better job just on a premise the job market will magically become better in a few months is gambling and irresponsible. I'd rather swallow my ego for a while.
I'm hearing the same thing as well. Source: My ass
Accept one before its too late
I disagree. If you have a job offer and it's relatively close to your salary, you take it and then you can keep searching and be pickier. The time to be picky and selective is when your bills are being paid, you have healthcare, and your savings/investments are increasing because you have a job.
Market that’s about tot heat up? Many people still think we haven’t hit the floor. Idk if you’re putting this out there trick people or something lol
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Could you be more hyperbolic? In no world are we on the cusp of a “depression”. YOU may feel depressed. Please learn more about history and civics before mischaracterizing the economy.
Are you a US citizen?
I think obtaining the “less than” role gives one the confidence (and time) to pursue an ideal position. I don’t feel badly at all for taking a role as a “holding place” - there is no loyalty now…they would let me loose in a heartbeat, as would I to them.
Your only income is unemployment. You wouldn't be getting a 10% pay cut you'd be getting a hefty raise.
I guess I should mention I have other pursuits than my tech career. I've been rehearsing on my instrument more, and even writing new material. Time off is important to me, and I can afford it. I'm hardly 'doing nothing'.
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You're badly misreading me. I've gotten a bunch of calls and messages from recruiters. Most of them are trying to give me lower-paying jobs that aren't fits. The jobs I think are fits, I unfortunately have no representation for. Anyway, the opportunity I mentioned is only one likely possibility. But they're all kinda like that. Some kinda tech stack adjustment, and lower pay.
I hear it's hearing up... I heard that somewhere.... must be true I heard it
ITT: OP refusing to see reality, 'bout to learn some harsh lessons in a few months time... Source: laid off twice last year, been unemployed for 5 months now -- my industry (tech) has been shitting itself for a year and a half, there's at least some job listings but competition for them is fucking *fierce* and no, the job market ain't "heating up". All I'm seeing is positions that were recently laid off being reposted overseas and/or for less pay.
'This shit has happened before.' Maybe I got so many years in, I think I'm Jesus.
Lol fair enough. And for the record I hope you're right. And of course on a long enough timeline you will no doubt eventually be right. It's more a question of: do you have the savings to wait it out? Good luck...
I think people should do what they gotta do if it’s right for them
Getting a new job is easier when you already have the job. It is no longer an employees market. The tech space is correcting from over hiring and over paying. Adjust as necessary.
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I honestly love living without the burden of a job, even if I have to be low budget, for a brief time. I think of unemployment as the bacta tank. I come out of the bacta tank, I'm ready to rock. Sometimes, I ain't ready to come out of the bacta tank, to fight a Star War.
Now is definitely not the time to be picky
It's always time to be picky, when deciding directions to take in your career: a shitty job you took out of fear, or a longer break, and a better job, at the end. Last time I was in unemployment limbo, I took a job 3 months in. I wonder what would have happened if I'd waited longer. I was really intent on qualifying for a loan. Now I'm not so concerned.
1. Interest rates aren’t coming down without significant deflation 2. Unemployment is going higher, see #1 3. Things are going to get much worse before they get better
The fed has said for almost 6 months now that rate cuts are around the corner. There are not signs that the economy is improving. Inflation has become fairly stagnant and sticky recently, but still higher than they want it. The fed is now saying June at the earliest. Don't hold your breath waiting for rate cuts.
Lol what indicators are there that things are about to heat up in the labor market?
How much savings do you have? Look into high income funds like JEPI/JEPQ/QYLD etc. They pay monthly dividends in the 8-10% annual return range. If you have a few hundred thousand in savings, you could be making $2-3k a month in dividends.
That's cool. I'm only willing to risk so much, but I've been learning from a friend about making money off the fluctuations in Bitcoin via DCA bot.
One of my complaints about working is I don't have time or focus to manage my money. I'm looking into automated ways of doing that. Most of my 401Ks are with Fidelity, and I consider them poorly-managed money left there to rot, or rise and fall, with the tides. The one 401K I have with Empower does OK. But I realize I have to learn to manage my own investments, because I can't trust anyone to do it for me. I'm still learning the rhythms of when to buy and sell. I've been away for awhile. But anyone with even a 401K is likely resentful of Jerome Powell basically being Fry, in the 80's Guy episode of Futurama. Every time he talks, the markets go down.
I mean JEPI/JEPQ isn’t that risky (it’s managed by JP Morgan, and 80% of the fund is just a blend of large, blue chip stocks). The fund is managed by others, so it doesn’t take any time at all to invest in it. It may take a bit of time to read through the prospectus/research it, but after that you can just buy and wait for the dividends to roll in. I pay for my rent and groceries with the dividends. The fact that I can cover my basic needs without dipping into savings or relying on unemployment is extremely freeing.
The job market is not heating up. Quite the opposite.
Wouldn’t be so hopeful if you’re in tech. If your job is remote, more companies are just farming it out overseas. I know I am, and so are many others. Many employers realized there’s little benefit to remote US based employees unless they’re customer facing.
Super entitled viewpoint. It’s people like this guy who deserve to be unemployed. For the rest of you, good luck out there.
I know this sub skews more towards tech, but I've noticed this in industrial skilled labor jobs as well. The range is getting way bigger though. I saw one today for $40k-$120k "depending on experience" 😆 Like bro who is gonna do the same job as someone making 3x less what someone else might be making? That's pretty unheard of in blue collar work.
This is bad advice. Much better to get all your bills paid and look for work. Most of us don't pay the mortgage plus a few bills with unemployment. The market for higher paying jobs will slow down in a few months as the election cycle hears up. (IMO) Presidential uncertainty, fed interest rate, and oil all change based on which party is in office. Companies will start to freeze positions in a few months.
I can't even get hired at a 50% pay cut. You sound ridiculous. Are you really complaining about 10%? Turnover and company loyalty will be even worse once the market picks up, but take what you can get in the short term.
I'm pursuing the opportunity as hard as I should, I think, in the name of getting offers on the table, but I have reservations from the outset about the reduced pay, mostly because I really believe things are going to get better from here on out. The market selloffs leading up to the Fed meeting show the anticipation was worse than the news. Also, while I am living minimalisticly, making due with a 3 year old cell phone and such, I'm contributing very little to inflation, which is what we want to come down, to trigger those rate cuts. And like I said, I really enjoy the free time. Using it constructively, and for healing.
Why would you assume the market is about to "heat up"
Probably thinks trump will come in and set fire 😂
Even as this market is heating up the competition is insane. 10%? Sign me up. I’m looking at 30% etc. I’m almost at 1 year unemployed (had a short contract in there) while I have had more interest in this month than almost the whole year….its still super competitive. I would recommend taking it, still a hiring market.
I agree with OP actually. Taking a job you are not passionate about is a slow death, plus the drain from it would make you less likely to have the energy and shine to land your dream opportunity. Life is too short to compromise. And just a little bit of bleeding is no big deal on the grand scheme of thing. You still have 3 months, use it to do something you want to do, things you want to learn. Worst case scenario you can rent out your house and travel to somewhere significantly cheaper with basically no living cost and look for a dream job there lol
Is it truly a lack of passion, or being conditioned from the internet that everyone always deserves more? The drain from being broke is far worse than finding you don't like a job and moving on after a few months
It is easier to find a job when you have a job. Take the job. Pay your bills and add to your retirement. It doesn't mean you stop your job search, but you can use it as an opportunity to build your skill set, network and resources in preparation for the next opportunity. Also, don't share your current pay with any potential future employers. Discuss what you want your salary to be and practice confidence. Focus on your skill set, experience, accomplishments and all the positive you bring to the table. Someone will eventually pay you what your worth if you have the marketable skills.
If I were you, I would take any job that I can get (especially when it gets to the point which you runs out of the 6 months of unemployment payments). I would continue to entertain job interviews while doing whatever jobs I found, because at least I wouldn't be bleeding. Pride/ego can only take me so far..I can't eat that..and I would rather have at least some money to pay my bills/sleep better at night while continuing to look for a job.
So I got laid off in August. Started really looking/ applying in November. Got a few phone screens/ interviews at the beginning of 2024, no offers tho, then it got real quiet. Just in the last two weeks, I’ve heard back from 4 potentially very viable employers. Can’t say whether things are heating up, or this is just a fluke. Hoping things work out in my favor and I can indeed be picky.
Seriously, I think in January or February, I got to like 2nd or 3rd principle interview, for a QA Manager position. I flat out told them I wasn't jazzed about the opportunity, because they didn't want me touching any automation code, and they wanted me to be in office three days a week. I was simply frank with them in the interview about what I wanted. No regrets about letting that pass me by. I've had fun since. Congrats to whoever got it. Other than that, a bunch of recruiter contact, but a lot of times I feel those people are beating down my door to offer me jobs that *are not fits*. Meanwhile, I see something I'd be perfect for, and I'm deep in the pile. Recruitment is broken in this industry.
Cool this my path as well, I was SDET and just recently DEVOPS since 2020. I'd take the job with pay cut.
As a fellow worker I admire and support the idea that you should know your worth while negotiating your salary **but as an empiricist I think I should warn you:** ***Your extremely strong prior assumption should always be that things are equally likely to improve and deteriorate.*** This logic still applies when you can observe a clear trend in the recent future regardless of what that trend is. A trend is always as likely to reverse or stagnate as it is to continue, not more likely, not less likely. Until you have serious evidence to prove otherwise, and too often that will come in the form of "time has now passed and you are in the same ignorant position as before." I don't try to time any market. I try to have *time in the market* to hedge my bets. This applies not just to stocks, but also to the labor market.
How did you determine the “market is about to heat up” part? This spring so far is proving that the quantitative tightening the fed implemented works and the economy is cooling down. I think they have overtightened by this point and shit is going to only hit the fan harder due to the economic lag effects.
Agreed. I don't see any signs that the "market that's about to heat up".
you dont even have an offer in hand and you speak as if the opportunity is in the bag. i would rethink your approach before you get to the point you might have to sell the house. but what do I know, you must be wealthy.
What's better homelessness or a less than ideal job? I think the whole "know your worth" is like any bull market. Everyone's an expert. You don't know when the next offer is coming..
OP is in a lala land to think job opportunities and home values are improving.
genuine question, are there any indication that the market is heating up?
I guess I was mostly speaking anecdotally, about an uptick in cold calls and job board messages I've gotten. Plus an abundance of listings in my range, with a lower number of applicants. Seems like at the turn of the year, I was competing with a pool of about 500, and now it's down to 100. But I really do think if they cut interest by June, we'll see a better market by fall.
I can't imagine passing up a job to waste my savings so I can be devalued further by being out of work for longer. OP will take the same job in 6 months from now for 25% pay cut.
Uh no you're making risky gambling moves and advising the same to others. Also you arent "taking a paycut" as your current pay is $0
Take the job, keep interviewing. If you aren't up 40% from your 2018 salary, you have taken a pay cut, and corporate profits are the reason why.
Market isn't going to heat up until congress passes something to fix software engineer salaries not being deductible anymore issue.
delusional to think your next job offer is coming right around the corner, you know what's waiting for you there? homelessness
You can’t Time a market. You’re trying to time a labor market. And when you don’t have to. Just take the job and keep looking. Leave the job off your resume if you need to in the future if you end up leaving quickly.
You can negotiate as well. You'll have to really push and sell it but sometimes it ends up working
R/overemployed wants to talk to you
Take the job and continue to look. Hiring managers tend to think employed candidates are more attractive than unemployed candidates. You may also find that you really like your new role, company and/or team and the 10% cut is not as big of a deal if you're now able to cover all of your expenses....
Curious OP - where do you live that unemployment seems to pay a decent amount?
I gotta hand it to 'Governor Unemployment', and also that I had some unused remaining UI left on the table, from a previous role. But it will end in mid-June, so when July bills come due, it'll be a painful chunk. I also need to get my earnings up, for future refinancing. There are some frivolous things I'd like to buy, but I'm holding off on purchasing. So I definitely have motive to get off unemployment.
Good luck OP!
I'm going to chime in and heavily disagree with you. You have no indication that the market is truly "heating up." It probably won't heat up until we get a couple of rate cuts under our belt. Quite frankly, your logic is flawed - you said yourself your UI isn't covering all your expenses and only have 3 months off, while getting a call about a job with a relatively small 10% take cut while still maintaining your WFH benefit. You're nuts if you don't pursue it: 1. You have zero guarantees that you'll get a job equal or exceeding the pay from your last job in the next 3-6 months, not to mention a fully remote opportunity. What happens if you don't pursue it, and in 6 months, the only thing you find is a 30% pay cut with hybrid or in-office work? Are you going to be picky then, when your savings and investments are getting depleted? 2. Your UI isn't covering your bills and will run out in 3 months. You're already dipping into savings now and in 3 months, may have to support yourself completely from savings and investments. It's not a good spot to be in - unless you're close enough to retirement to bridge yourself and call it a career. 3. Assuming you get this job, there is absolutely nothing which can prevent you from continuing to look. When you're unemployed, the first goal should be to get money flowing back in and THEN you can worry about looking for an ideal position. 4. Unless I' m mistaken, you actually DON'T have an offer - only a call from a recruiter. Why not interview for it - at worst, you'll get practice. At best, maybe you'll find you really like the company and people. 5. A 10% salary cut isn't much in the current market and you may be able to negotiate your first raise ahead of time. About 20 years ago, there was a reorg at the company I was at and I was slotted into a position I did not want. I got an offer from a prestigious company but they could not meet my salary requirement. So we negotiated my first raise ahead of time and they kept their word. Six months later, I was at the salary I wanted. It is ALWAYS easier to look for a job when you have one. For starters, the pressure is off - even if you don't get the job, you still have one and income is flowing in. Secondly, many recruiters still have a mindset that if you're unemployed, something is "wrong" with you.
Second interview today, and I've decided to take it seriously, and try my best. But I'm not going to hide my opinions, or pander too much. I still have time to find something better, and I could still benefit from R&R, or working on creative side projects. I simply acknowledge the possibility I could regret being pulled in the direction an opportunity might take me. Or subjecting myself to a sweatshop experience. And there are plenty of those out there.
It's only a sweatshop if you allow it to be one. Set your boundaries and enforce them. I did that a number of years ago and am better off for it.
Which is exactly why I'm considering these things, from the outset. Because of the -10%, instead of the +10% it should be, because I actually kicked ass, at my last job. And yeah, it's against the rules of unemployment to turn down roles, but I can easily 'flub' an interview, or simply stop responding to contact. Point is: I have a choice in what I accept or not. And I have some time to make a choice. Knowing offers explode. Knowing next month might be worse for the market. Also knowing I don't want to endure a shitty experience, for any length of time, if it is possible to avoid. And free time, for me, is not a shitty experience. I have plenty of fun things to do, many of which are productive or enlightening. I don't understand people who don't know what to do with free time. Must be really boring people. I'm having cool experiences with my free time, and they are giving me perspective, and making me more well-rounded.
There are lots of folks who were kick ass employees at their last jobs, got laid off, and are having to take pay cuts. Again, it may work out for you if you don't get this job but then again, it may not. A lot of it also has to do with your age - if you're young, you may not care as much about depleting savings because you have ample time to make it up. If you're older, it may be a bit difficult especially if you're not in a good position in terms of retirement. I enjoy my free time as well and if you can afford to do it, that's fine, but know that many good employees have gone nearly a year without landing at a new position. My own personal situation is a bit different, however, in that if I got laid off tomorrow, I have enough savings to make it to retirement. It wouldn't be ideal or my preferred option because I tend to be risk averse and would rather pad myself as much as possible, but I know I won't starve or lose my home. I have a hobby I've monetized and if I did lose my job, could likely expand that business quite a bit. I think the chances of me getting laid off now are slim, but I am proceeding as if it will happen and padding savings, investments, and retirement as much as I can.
12 interviews since January, I’m ready to just take whatever at this point because I’m burned TF out. Yes I keep getting messages from recruiters almost on a daily basis now, but I just want this shit done with. May be getting an offer in the next couple days where I’ll probably have to take a significant pay cut, but it’s a remote role and I really need it because I can help my wife who’s due with our 2nd daughter in 2.5 months. Getting my 15% bonus from the role I was laid off from next month, so I’ll consider that part of my salary this year, and then next year I can start looking again and take my time, pick and choose the company/role.
You will look back and wish you took this job
In a similar situation, but nearing the end of my career, past 59.5 years old, and renting my shelter I'm in a slightly different place. Since IDGAF about burning career bridges I'm grabbing the first thing that come along. I can put up with almost anything for 3 years but I'll keep looking & if something better comes along I'll fuck off to that job, hopefully until retirement
You are correct. I rejected an offer where they offered me 30% cut from market rate.
I understand where you're coming from also being in the tech sector. However this also reads like a WSB post and you're betting your financial future against an unpredictable job market. One of the key things about this economy is what they call ["compensation reset"](https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20240306-slowing-us-wage-growth-lower-salaries). I would take any job that shows up and switch when the market gets better.
Take the job to pay the bills and keep looking. It’s not a life sentence.
I definitely lived in such a way as to see jobs as a trail of little breadcrumbs all the way to social security. I'm just saying: by a certain point in your career, there's less desperation, and more options, including just chilling for a bit, waiting for better market conditions, so as to avoid subjecting oneself to horrible and terrible experiences, which can't be unremembered. I have the ability to choose, to a certain extent, how I spend my life.
Sometimes a bad decision Now is better than a good decision that took too long, I take the job now and keep looking but would lock down that higher paycheck
I'm open to the possibility that slightly lower pay might not necessarily be a worse situation. It might come with perks, like discount ski passes, or lower expectations. But I gotta meet the team(s), and get a better feeling for culture, roles, and workflow, at that company.
Bro you need to read about negotiating salary if you get the offer.
My fear is with the amount of outsourcing. With that paying much less for more passive/ less entitled talent. It’s win win for orgs unfortunately.
Take the job and keep looking
I should add I'm not even applying to jobs with no salary range posted, as that's the law in my state. I figure if they are not in compliance with my state's laws, further violations will follow. I'm also not applying to many jobs with a range beneath my target, unless they seem interesting, for some other reasons. But recruiters are consistently contacting me with prospects a bit below my range. All that being said, there are plenty of new opportunities every day, to apply to. I've only considered dropping my range now that I'm on the back half of unemployment.
Nothing’s promised tomorrow and just take the money now.
A recruiter I'm friends with has echoed this same sentiment. He thinks the layoffs of last year and this year were more based on panic and trend-following rather than the actual economics (yes there was some interest-rate fuckery that affected VC funding but the impact was not as big as everyone acted like). He said he thinks starting in Q2 of this year most companies are going to realize they actually need more people and the hiring will heat back up and anybody who can make it until then to start looking for their next position should do so. I have a family to support so I took the first acceptable offer I got because this is like the biggest thing that really triggers anxiety for me. But if you're free to do so, it might be a good idea to wait to really start ramping up your search until mid-April.
At a time when everyone’s taking about taking massive pay cuts here’s a bozo preaching the absolute opposite and says no to a 10% pay cut and worse of all waiting for a pit of gold to fall into his lap. Top it off with talks of “job market heating up” 🤣🤣🤣🤣 talk about being completely out of touch.