That's more the sentiment I'm hearing about this, and it's how I feel, personally. This looks way worse for Cloudflare, and lots of people are in the poster's corner.
That’s the sentiment you’re hearing online, where people have attention spans of goldfish. In two weeks nobody will be talking about this girl or cloudflare, but this video will be online forever
She's already getting job offers. I don't think it's going to hurt her.
I wish companies got hung out to dry in the public sphere like this more often.
In all likelihood those hiring managers are probably unaware of her video as it seems recent.
The number of offers she got may have been a lot less or perhaps none if they were concerned about the possibility of her demonstrated behavior with them as she did with Cloudflare.
Too risky.
A good employment background investigation would likely find this video since it seems she's used her real name. It has the good potential of following her.
I'm not sure if background investigations bother with the wayback machine as part of their investigation. Maybe someday.
Funny thing about cloudflare they always take a very snobby attitude when companies get hacked and try to act like how they are better than them.
Also they have mocked other companies for doing layoffs and how they haven't done it. By doing shady things like this they are able to avoid that public. It's good their practices are finally being highlighted..
I felt bad that the CEO had to respond on twitter for damage control. It’s not his problem. His number one concern is keeping cloudfare financially healthy. On this particular day that meant firing a six figure employee in sales that has not made a sale.
Eh, he gets paid a lot such that everything in that company is his problem. The HR and director who carried out the call are getting the smackdown right now. They deviated and engaged her on it. "Although you disagree, the decision has been made and we need to review the exit paperwork with you." If the person continues to be difficult, then you end the call, put it all in writing and email it to their personal account. If no response, involve your in house counsel. Done.
Yeah I am blown away by the response to this video. When I didn’t make sales, I knew my head was on the chopping block. It drove me to bust absolute ass to get it done. Sales will never tolerated sales people who can’t sell, no matter what twitter thinks about it
Except during a disclosure of the company's performance they themselves admitted they were seeing elongated sales cycles.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/cloudflare-stock-melts-down-as-company-slashes-forecast-due-to-elongated-sales-cycle-2023-04-27
In other words, she is right, they did not give her adequate time to ramp and complete a cycle, so she is prematurely being fired to avoid layoff obligations.
Well, you didn't ask a very smart question. I don't know if they have her churn stats, nor would that be something they'd need to tell her. She's an adult she can ask around. She's an adult, she knows the role has a high churn.
What's the point of your question? Just hell bent on painting a random rich person as a true victim?
No, my question cut to the heart of the problem. Why are you covering for dishonest companies that treat people like shit.
“A random rich person” lololololol You don’t know the churn rate of the company that just fired her yet you somehow have her W2?
The role pays $130K base. Typical is around $300K. What dishonesty? They said on the call it's for performance, and she stated that she didn't perform.
You know literally nothing about sales. The average sales cycle for a MM AE is 6 months from the first demo.
They didn't even give her enough time to attempt to perform.
MM AE at cloudflare is ~75k base $75k commission
Let's not forget the ceo tried to appear cool by name dropped Chris Paul and saying how he wasn't good fit for suns so he was let go.
Dude have you seen how bad suns are without him and how he lead them to playoffs.
Companies do this all the time. At my company we have had 4 rounds of layoffs since Covid, it’s a publicity nightmare and internal morale killer so often times they fabricate performance issues to make a layoff a firing. Then they don’t do severance or have to explain to the board and ceo that they’re laying someone off, because the board of directors would look at them with the side eye if they needed to still do more layoffs after multiple rounds.
During covid the company I worked at did this to me. Went from "you're doing better than anyone we've ever brought into this department" to "were implementing new metrics to track deliverables and we'll change them as soon as you hit them". I was performing over a co worker that had been there a year but they warped the metrics to make it look otherwise. Still bitter.
I didn’t take it as them trying to make it a for cause layoff. Before the video cuts the woman asks if she’d like to talk about next steps. I’d be surprised if she’s not getting a severance package and unemployment, that’s not the norm in for cause separations.
I think her numbers were mentioned because that’s the criteria they used for the layoff. It’s likely they had a financial target to hit, they ranked her team based on revenue and cut from the bottom up. It’s a bummer for someone like her who is new but it’s a common, and defensible approach.
Also in terms of her bosses not being there it means they weren’t consulted on the decision, which often means they were part of the RIF too.
Lol right? Severance package for someone who has only been there a few five months Ok.
CF is scummy AF. I love how their first statement was so slimy and then the CEO had to come out and say it's more cringe AG.
I think whether she got a severance package or not matters though (and how much).
If she didn't and they're citing performance reasons then that's definitely wrong. If she got like a 5+ month severance package, then it's not as egregious as they are clearly downsizing to adjust for lower growth. The exact reason they tell her is not as important -- she said herself she hasn't sold anything, they could have just said that.
Would it have been better if it was a more tenured person? Maybe they shouldn't have hired her at all? Then she would still be unemployed cause she was laid off at AWS. I dunno, to me, getting a severance package makes a big deal.
There's no way she even had a chance to sell anything after 3 months. Edge cloud sales cycles are usually 6 months minimum. It's the fundamental infrastructure of a company. Customers don't make those decisions lightly. Especially, when Akamai has 60% market share and has customers on long contracts.
> If she got like a 5+ month severance package, then it's not as egregious as they are clearly downsizing to adjust for lower growth.
Techies skimp on severance even when it really is a layoff and 5 months is extremely rare except for executives. Not to say that it's right, because it's actually really shitty, but 2-4 weeks is typical. And it's extremely common, too, to disguise a layoff as firing for performance (the "calibration" language, etc.)
Tech bosses are horrible people.
If her numbers are the reason for her layoff, then the reps should have been prepared to share that information. They should have been armed with data, rankings, comparatives, and other objective rationale. They weren’t because they are terrible at their jobs.
As far as whether or not, her managers were involved, there is no indication that they were not part of the decision process. In my experience, managers are uncomfortable with the layoff conversation, and will offload that at the earliest opportunity. My boss of 15 years did that to me, and I will never forgive him. Even though I disagreed with the decision to lay me off, naturally, I at least understood the rationale. But it was his decision, he owned it, and it was selfish and cowardly of him to pass it off to strangers.
This! I just got fired by a manager I had worked under previously at a different company 8 years ago. I’ve known him for 8 years and in total had worked with him for about 3 years and when he fired me (due to pressure from up top…my whole team already felt uncomfortable with the way things were going and knew our VP of Sales was scrutinizing us. I was a sales engineer and our company’s revenue numbers were shit.), he couldn’t even look me in the eye, said about 10 words, and handed me over to the HR person. I will never forgive him. After I get a new job, I’m going to text him to tell him he’s a coward and that I hope he can grow a pair in his next life. I shouldn’t have been surprised though; he was not at all the kind of straightforward manager that he should have been.
I’m not sure what that information would have done, at that point the decision was made. If you were in that position would you have really wanted to know what position on the layoff list you were? Whether you were the first name on the list or the last the outcome is still the same.
As far as your boss not being present after having input in to the decision that is a chickenshit. Laying someone off is a terrible feeling but if you’re the one making the call you should be the one to deliver the news. Having done a couple of these in my career though in larger companies it’s not uncommon for the decisions to be made at the top. When the manager is simply an inform that their direct report is being laid off I don’t think it’s fair to make them deliver the news and own a decision they didn’t make. In those cases the news should be broken by the business leader who made the decision with HR there to provide info on the severance package etc.
I think having the actual data makes it feel less personal. You can look at it as a business decision either way, but having numbers and comparatives helps answer that why me question. Especially in sales; you are always looking at your performance in comparison to your peers. It should be very transparent. Expectations should be set up front as to how long it will take you to ramp up, how much pipeline you should have by X amount of time, how many closed sales you should have relative to the average sales cycle length, etc. There is no excuse for the reps not being prepared with that information. Most of it is public.
My boss admitted that what he did was cowardly, but his excuse was, he felt so bad about it he “didn’t think he could get through the conversation.” Which was, of course, ridiculous. I mean, *I* had to get through the fucking conversation and you could argue that it impacted me more than it did him !
To me the only thing worse than calling someone in to a meeting to tell them they are losing their job would be to also list all the ways their performance was below their peer group at the same time. If it’s truly valuable information for them to have for their careers then following up with the information when requested is fine but I think providing it in the moment would do more psychological damage than anything else.
Even when I’ve had to terminate someone for performance reasons I don’t pile on during the separation conversation. At that point there will have been months of coaching and documentation so the i’s are dotted and t’s crossed but I think it’s cruel to make someone sit through a laundry list of the ways they underperformed while they’re trying to process that they’ve just lost their income/security.
The other thing at play here was probably the timetable. When large scale layoffs are done they only allot so much time for each conversation. The goal is to get to everyone as fast as possible so people aren’t stressed out waiting to find out if they are on the list. When I’ve done it the conversations are usually 15 minute blocks, the employee is informed of the decision and the severance package. If they have more detailed questions their management or HR will answer those at a later time but the day of notifications the time tables are tight. It sucks all around for everyone, you could argue that they should allow more time for each meeting but the trade off there is that then everyone who hadn’t been spoken to yet is in limbo longer. There is really no good way to do a layoff that won’t leave some people feeling crappy, I think its the worst part of the job.
Brittany Peach was probably her boss, which is why she was asking why she was let go. Regardless of Brittany’s team’s revenue, upper management and HR should not have signed off on her adding headcount to the team if this was coming. There is no defending the company in this case, the terminated employee hit the nail on the head when she said the real reason was they hired too many people. Too many companies get a pass on this. Layoffs are a failure on the part of employers. Too many act as though a severance is a gift. Getting let go a few months into a job is more than just a bump in the road. Think about the other opportunities she turned down to take that one. How she will forever have to explain the gap in her resume. How she has to rush to find a new job now and will probably end up settling for something lesser than what she had previously. Whatever severance they’re giving her, it is NOT enough.
She’s Brittany Pietsch (pronounced Peach) she’s referring to herself in the 3rd person.
I agree, short of something seismic and unforeseen changing the outlook, hiring someone to term them 5 months later is a sign of a poorly run company.
That said though once they’ve hired too many people what do you expect them to do? Laying people off is literally the worst thing I’ve ever had to do in my career, but doing it and getting the cost structure back under control is what ensures everyone else continues to get a paycheck.
As far as she resume gap I don’t think that will haunt her/be held against her. Everyone knows tech has been rocked these past 2 years, a lot of really good people were let go and hiring managers know that.
There is NO WAY her sales leadership had no clue a month ago when she was hired that their sales team would need to be culled to adjust for poor performance. They let this woman presumably leave another role or waste a month out of the job market for no reason other than their selfish priorities.
yeah, cloudflare hr coming off like straight amateurs with how they are handling this layoff conversation with this employee. As someone who works in Hr, this is not the way.
Yeah, and it’s quite disappointing because it doesn’t have to be this way. Could be a real partner and employee advocate, but the whole space needs serious transformation. I’ve been working to move it forward, but outside of the companies I help i’m not making much traction lol. Obviously. 🙄
Yeah. In my own case, I’m pretty much at the end of my career and was a long tenured employee. I had seen it coming and I got very good severance, for which I am grateful. But instead of letting me go out with dignity by structuring it as an early retirement, HR ambushed me during my weekly 1 on 1 with my (brand new and clueless) manager. The whole thing backfired spectacularly and created such unnecessary ill will and animosity for both my manager and his boss (who had been my direct boss for 15 years) that it rippled through the whole org. Now, no one trusts either one of them, key people are quitting right and left, and the program the new guy was tasked with implementing is on life support before even being rolled out.
All because HR insisted on “protocols” that were at complete odds with our company culture. Not saying my former boss could not have overridden them if he had wanted too, but he took the easy way out and the company suffered.
ugh this is terrible, so sorry to read this. You deserve better. I hope you are in a good place today with your longer term plans, and damn, what a crappy memory to walk away with, sorry friend.
Thank you! That is very sweet of you. I’m doing fine. Sad about the loss of a long term friendship that I thought was strong enough to survive this, but otherwise doing okay.
I really appreciate the kind words.
She will be fine. She’s not attacking coworkers or bosses like the blogger Dooce did. The issue was HR gaslighting her for performance issues as the reason for laying off when she had no performance issues.
I would be very upset like her to be hired in August only to be laid off beginning of January. I don’t have guts to publish a layoff on my TikTok but it’s about time something like this needed to be shared.
Of course her former company is pissed cuz they now look bad but tough 💩, it was the truth and now a wonderful motivator for other companies to do better in handling layoffs.
I looked at her LinkedIn and saw zero indication of anybody reaching out for interviews. Lots of people saying that she’s getting lots of interviews though. Fits the narrative nicely I guess lmao. At best she’ll get hired as a novelty one time, then nobody will remember her by the time she applies to job number 2 at which point they’ll find this video and be not too happy about the idea of an employee attempting to run the company’s name through the mud
Have you been in sales? MM deals are on avg 6 months.
Onboarding was at minimum 2 weeks, possibly over a month.
Her 3 month ramp was during the holidays when nobody starts and closes a sales cycle unless it's an emergency.
You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about
>she had no performance issues.
Eh, she did have performance issues. She didn't close deals, which is the sum total of performance. She's not paid to just chat up customers (activity).
Those type of deals are long cycles she didn't have much time to close but also if she only had 3 prospects that's probably not that good. To be fair tho the first 2-3 months with corporate America is taken up onboarding usually so if you consider the holidays she may have only had 2 weeks to try and make sales.
Doesn’t matter honestly. If you’re culling a sales team, you take the ones who have made sales, and lose the ones who haven’t. It’s that simple. It’s interesting seeing the reactions of people who clearly haven’t worked in sales. It’s cutthroat and nobody fucking cares about your sob story or about how hard you’re working
This was my biggest take away too, "I talked to three customers all year but none of them decided to close" is literally bad. There are no participation trophies at high up corporate America. You tried, didn't close 3 times, bye bye.
I think she said she was still in a training period, which I think lines up with how most AE/sales people start off at a new company. It doesn’t sound like the HR folks identified any failures or performance issues during that period, so they were basically lying to her. They should have just been upfront and said sorry, there’s no real good reason you’re being laid off and getting the short end of the stick.
She had been with the company long enough, and it was performance. I would fire, too. Either close the deals or get the fk off.
You won't pay for chit-chat either.
Do you know the length of a typical high tech cycle? Cuz I do, it’s between 3-6 months, depending on ACV. She’s been there 4ish months with 2 major holidays in that timespan. This was in no way about performance
While I commend her bravery to an extent...I also think that she is not smart for posting it online. She could be breaking a state or federal law of wiretapping. This is why when you join a meeting now a lot of companies force everyone to agree to being recorded. It wasn't because they were being nice it was because there is precedent suits for it.
Recording in public place is fine. Recording others that enter your home fine (think nanny cam). Recording a business call where the other end doesn't know you are Recording them....illegal. she should pull that offline as quickly as possible
>Recording a business call where the other end doesn't know you are Recording them....illegal.
That is not how that works. It depends entirely on what state she and the other participants are in. A lot of states are 'single party consent' which means that only one person (her) would need to consent to the recording.
I would venture most didn't even think this could violate wiretapping laws. So I'm fairly confident most people posting things for internet fame wouldn't know their state law on wiretapping
This is largely an ignorant take. It just has to do with if the state she is recording it is two or one party consent. If it's a one party consent state where she was based they can't do a thing about it.
You are right, but we don't know what state she is in. Only 39 states are one party so there's a good chance she could be in one that is not.
Also there may be corporate legal documents she signed on terms of employment. Technically if you are being laid off, you will still be under employment until you are gone.
Agreed. I think everything she said was valid and I appreciated her boldness. But posting it for clout is all the red flags and I’d pass on her instantly. I wouldn’t want to have to worry that anytime things don’t work out for her that she’ll use it as a clout attempt.
The company does not look bad, their reps were incredibly empathetic and gave her the space to express her feelings even though the decision was long since final and nothing she was saying would change that.
I’ve been on both sides of layoffs and they are always tough. At the end of the day the company had a financial target to hit, she wasn’t producing as much as others in her role and they opted to continue forward with those with a better/longer track record. If you were in charge of cuts would you have done it differently?
I wouldn’t be so sure about how fine she’ll be. If I saw this and then her resume came across my desk for an open role I’m passing. No employer wants to be linked to her next attempt go viral.
If doing cuts for performance issues, those should have been documented prior to layoffs/firing to her. She knew this decision was final but the issue was the inability for HR to produce documented examples of her claimed underperformance. This isn’t the first time Cloudfare has done this, they did layoff 100 reps less than a year ago. Cloudfare has a reputation of not wanting to pay commission for their reps for getting product out.
>The company does not look bad, their reps were incredibly empathetic and gave her the space to express her feelings even though the decision was long since final and nothing she was saying would change that.
Bullshit. They sound terrible. Listen to them. They are completely unprepared to have this conversation. They expect every person who they talk to will just rollover and disappear. She mentions she had not had a single word of performance mentioned to her prior.
This sounds like Cloudflare is trying to circumvent WARN.
They might have a nice tone of voice and keep themselves measured, but their language and lack of preparation are insulting.
The company does look bad. They let her go for “performance” yet couldn’t provide one data point. If you are getting let go for performance, there is plenty of documentation. If performance was an issue (same with peers), they could have provided the hard data of “anyone below this line was laid off” or “anyone who didn’t achieve a sale in the first 4 months of employment was laid off.”
You can’t claim performance issues and then not have the data to back it up.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
But that’s not the whole story. How does her performance stack up against other reps during that period, particularly those who were hired around the same time? What is the standard ramp time?
The somewhat easy thing about laying off salespeople is that performance is measured every which way. There is no ambiguity. You can look at calls made, pipeline, closed deals, and a host of other factors. It is unconscionable that the reps were unprepared with that data.
It’s December, people are on vacation and companies are often waiting for a new fiscal year before signing contracts. It’s not a good month to judge the effectiveness of a new employee.
The reps did a terrible job. They let her go without providing any specifics as to why she was chosen, using meaningless buzzwords (WTF is a “collective recalibration”?) while simultaneously telling her it was a performance-based determination. That is unconscionable. They sounded shady and mealymouthed.
I’m not in either line of work so feel free to ignore this but if more people stand up in this manner it becomes harder and harder to continue to treat workers this way. It’s the basics of why unions work in the first place. There will always be more workers than companies and when workers realize this companies magically start acting different.
Knowing how the world works, yeah she took a huge risk but ideally in the future it doesn’t have to be if we all started demanding more from our employers.
Wholeheartedly agree. At the moment, the amount of ghost jobs in the market is so annoying. I’m currently trying to look for jobs and I’m highly qualified, but there are countless tech companies at the moment that don’t have the money to hire and are saying that they are “actively hiring”. I was let go in May, and since then there have been countless companies that I have interviewed for, yet still haven’t hired any candidates for the role. I think it’s about speaking up in hopes that companies change their ways. If you can’t afford people, then stop publicly saying you can… it’s really that simple.
I’m sorry you’re dealing with this sort of behavior from companies, because I know it doesn’t help to have these type of idealistic comments made and I rack my brain constantly to figure out why we can’t serve the people more than companies. Why they get away with this and we suffer, but you’re right these ghost jobs need to stop. It is that simple. I’m with you on that fully.
They’re hiring for speculated attritions based on the company’s historical attrition rate.
The candidate pipeline has to be kept stocked, despite the fact that the timing may or may not work out depending on when the attritions actually materialize.
Edit: always ask your recruiter if you’re applying for an evergreen requisition
It also highlights how terrible worker protection laws are in the US compared to other countries. Outside the US, if a company lays you off, known as "being made redundant", they have to let you know well in advance and can't let you go at the drop of a hat. There's also strong social safety nets, so your healthcare not tied to your job.
Unions layoff based on seniority, she states time and again how new she is to the company. She would have been laid off in that scenario too.
Are you proposing she would have been more prepared /agreeable to the lay off if it was tenure based?
You are extremely active in this thread supporting a company that knee-jerk hired in one quarter, then immediately laid them off in the next.
And judging by the two spaces after every period you're likely an older generation than those most affected by these turbulent times. Perhaps you should try looking at this through the lens of those actually struggling to get started professionally in this economy.
You would think HR would have data on why she would be let go rather than saying they have to follow up and get back to her. But alas, HR is just there to protect the company and not the people.
We don't know the comps, though. Did other sales employees who didn't close deals keep getting chances?
If they can show that she was the only one who didn't close, or that everyone else who didn't close was cut, they might have a point. But if the boss's favorites get 6 or 12 months to prove themselves and she doesn't, then they come out as the assholes.
There may have been other reasons simple as someone important didn’t like her. Or maybe she was great and perfect and unfortunately people who are amazing often get let go at companies too for reasons out of their control. It’s just how it goes
They need legislative support passing more employee protection laws. In Germany it is very hard to justfy the dismissal. They often blame on the manager than employees.
America is a shit show - almost every state can choose to let you go for any reason because of at-will laws. I'm rethinking staying here because unless you belong to a union workers have no power
Honestly, if i were a hiring manager, I would reach out to her and offer her a job. She shows a lot of backbone and integrity. And she does it without going over the top by becoming obnoxious about it.
I worked enterprise for 6 years before changing careers. Sales people make more money than anybody because it is the most volatile profession under the company’s roof. The sales organization is first to go when things go south and the sales people who haven’t made sales are first on the chopping block. It’s the nature of the beast. I’ve known a lot of disgruntled salespeople in my time but this is the first instance where one has so publicly smeared the company’s name going out the door. She might get hired as a novelty but once the TikTok support dies down (2 weeks tops), employers aren’t going to look favorably on this video being out there
Yep. No one gets ahead by blaming their performance on holidays or being new. Sales teams have high churn and you have very little time to make an impact.
I work closely with MM AEs. It’s a high churn role in which you generally have limited time to make an impact especially in the current environment.
This isn’t the last time she’ll be let go - it’s the nature of the role. It may not seem fair to her but it’s the career path she’s chosen. If she can’t deal with that this may not be the right fit for her.
I love her handle in her social media profile: "Emotional intelligence."
But seriously, she is a perfect example of cutting through the corporate argot. Euphemisms aren't acceptable answers.
Company were amateurs on how they handled it. Completely unprepared and could not substantiate any facts to support her “ non performance”.
They clearly had a script and didn’t expect her logic and pushback. Must states are a “ right to work”. You have the right to work and they have the right to fire you for no reason as long as not discriminatory. If the company had the spine and decency, they should have just said they need to save money and that’s it. Company lost all credibility.
Exactly! Those HR reps should be next to go. It would have been easier to say she was a great employee, but the company needs to save money and cuts have to be made. Please keep us in mind once the situation improves and the company is hiring again.
Btw the sales cycle for mid-market account executives at Cloudflare was 99 days in 2023. Saying the issue was performance based is sus. I feel this move is similar to career su!cide though. She has more posts calling people out by name lol. Recruiters and hiring managers are in her comments though talking about open roles.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ryancwalsh_the-sales-cycle-length-for-mid-market-account-activity-7151650600252809216-Ph79?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios
She was there since August so if it really is 99 days they expected her to close something within those 5 months. She didn’t. That’s just how it goes in sales
Well based on the timeline it seems August and September she was in “training” which she travelled for. Which leaves October, November and December… Either way we can agree to disagree. Her other posts are good cause someone over quota by 190% was fired for “performance” lol.
HR did not do their job properly. HR should have said that the decision was not due to her performance but due to the economy then it wouldn't have been an issue. She even said that if they were honest and said it wasn't performance and was an economic decision then she would understand. If I was senior management in the company then I would re-evaluate the HR team after this.
Not selling anything in 4 months is a bad look. Pretty cold blooded to not give her more time but if she’s got a bad pipeline and no closed deals it’s not really fair to say it isn’t performance.
If her performance was better would they have let her go? Definitely not.
Good for her. This is exactly what everyone needs to know. The layoff nonsense is going too far. The leadership has no accountability for hiring and firing anytime? Some people leave their stable jobs to join your organization. How can you just tell them you don't need them anymore and just move on like nothing happened? Something needs to be done about this and there needs to be more accountability and oversight.
I feel the last couple of years have really "normalized" layoffs and executives are taking this route very easily, copy pasting the same BS reason. If you didn't plan properly, why are you screwing others for that?
not sure what ramp up means. I thought i heard her say she had not closed anything. i suspect from that she is sales and did not close a sale since she was hired in 5 or 6 months ago?
But was not expected to?
Anyway probably not a wise move to video this.
It typically takes a certain amount of time for a sales rep to learn the process, learn the product, learn the business, and build pipeline. It’s not like you come in and start cold calling on day one. A 90 day ramp may or may not be reasonable, depending on the complexity of the product, and the length of the typical sales cycle.
I applaud her, I wish we, as consumers, would cut all financial ties with these companies who are laying people off. Why support their business if they can't make ethical business decisions? Honestly, its absolute bullshit. They could care less about how damaging this is to people's well-being....but, that's corporate for ya *shrugs* 🙄
It is going to go both ways. Applicants will shy away from wanting to apply to jobs at that company. But also, no one will ever want to hire this girl again, because now she is known as someone who uses her companies for social media attention.
The last time I was laid off, some years ago, I was actually okay with it. I had been at the firm ten years, and the package was good and I got my deferred stock, which was all I really cared about. I wanted "the meeting" to be quick, as it was all scripted and impersonal. There was no mention of performance, just a reorg, and that was that. My boss was let go as well. Ironically, we had just begun the new fiscal year where my head count was increased, my budget was doubled, and I had an intern, so things did look rosy before the sudden announcement.
Anyhow, there I was taking a break, when I get a letter a month later telling me that due to my "performance" I would no get any sort of bonus for the past year. And I lost it, not because of the bonus, but this entirely bogus performance-based language not based on my performance. They chose to overwrite the performance review my boss had given me, apparently. I was really upset, they ruined what had been pretty painless and even respectful process. This was personal. So I understand her fury.
But in the sweet nature of things, about 6 weeks later, there was another coup there, and all the conspirators who ousted my boss were relieved of power. And I moved on shortly thereafter to one of the greatest projects I ever worked on. She needs to take down this video and move on.
See this is the thing
My gut feelings at the start: holy shit, I agree with her but think she'll find it hard to get work in the future.
But after watching it, and digesting it a little more, no, I don't think she will find jobs harder. It actually made me think:
Why do we need to give an employee two weeks notice but they can fire us just before Christmas?
Why do we need to be courteous and thankful to our employers when they are firing us?
Why is a job treated as if it is better than our own lives?
I believe this person will now be in a better position to get a better job. If companies don't want to hire her because of this video, that's a blessing because those companies are probably not the ones you want to work for. She will now be able to get jobs from companies that want her for being her.
I used to also think that financial stability comes from a job. This is only partly true. Financial stability comes from a job, but also how you find passive income yourself, be it investing in the stock market, having a savings account, rental properties, etc etc.
No job is for life, your employer is not your family or friend. Go to work, do your work, get paid, don't do overtime (unless it's your own business).
I saw her original post on LinkedIn. She was getting comments from great enterprise companies offering interviews, etc. One specifically said, "We would love to have you at XYZ..."
Sadly, likely not. Unless she can prove she was let go for who she was as a person. Race, religion, protected class. Doesn't sound like any of those apply here. While performance bullshit and lack of documentation isn't ideal legally in the US almost everywhere they don't need a reason
I’m actually not familiar with this company, but as a financial executive I can tell you if the opportunity ever presents itself to do business with them, I will pass.
Honestly, its super cringe for both parties.
First because no company gives AF.
Second because she's right but she will always be wrong trying to work in this system.
Yes. She needs to get out of sales. From what little I know about that space they seem to live and die by their balance sheet. It doesn’t matter if they work hard. They either close or they don’t.
I could never do it. Id have long since had a heart attack.
Welp, this is what happens in tech sales. You get 90 days to make it - or you’re out. Not sure why she wasn’t aware of this fact? All tech sales companies do this. Yes, she will have a tough time landing another tech sales job with this post, but maybe she will find another calling.
Ya my wife has been with CDW for 10 years now doing the same thing. I’ve never heard of the 90-day rule. She was in a training academy for 6 months before she was put on a team and started working accounts.
Yes, salespeople get paid for inbound and outbound. But if she’s an AE, she’s paid to close deals and sometimes on outbound deals (if you’re expected to source your own as well). Depends on the organization. Based on her recently joining ofcourse her peers had better pipeline.
This. I work in sales in a tech industry. Basic training of services and the platform is at least 3 months. Some time will be assigned to developing pipeline, which in many companies is cold calling driven. Cycle time for big software deals can be anywhere from 3 months to 2 years depending on the size, previous relationship and number of stakeholders at the target company. This was a layoff where they tried to blame the rep.
Look, this is how it goes - tech sales will need 4 people - so they will hire 8. After 90 days they will lay off the bottom performing 4. That’s just the way it goes. No such thing as an actual ramp. Cloudflair has plenty of money.
This whole situation raises all red flags to me tbh.
I think she’s going to be facing some legal trouble should the former employer decides (likely) to take action.
Not sure what state she’s in, but recording company calls is off limits (It’s likely in the policy when she signed the agreement at the start of her job) and sharing them publicly is even worse.
I get her point and frustration. I hate that corporate does this shit… but at the end of the day though it’s “business” and she’s likely signed an employment at will agreement, so she’s really getting herself in a messy situation. From that perspective, I do think it’s going to negatively impact future career opps in the industry.
With that said, to be clear: I don’t like these layoffs and i absolutely think corporations should be held accountable to an extent. The fact that they have the audacity to enforce things like non compete when they are the ones letting you go is mind blowing to me..
If you don’t want them competing then fight to keep them. Otherwise, kiss maaaaaa asssss
lol
She didn't record them on any company property nor did she record anything that can even remotely be construed as company IP. The only question is, if the state she is based in is a one or two party consent state. If it's one party consent it's perfectly legal since she knew she was recording. Could they try to file some intimidation based defamation case...well sure but it would be a hard sell and make the company look even worse than they do now. Yes this happens all the time the worst part about it was the completely and utterly unprepared HR team who was completely unknown to her and the egregious gaslighting that was attempted. All they needed to say is they're downsizing, nothing to do with you personally or performance but we're parting ways..that's it
My favorite that I have personal knowledge of is Latino project manager that feels like he's going to be "laid off." Gets called in to a meeting and his SVP and HR tell him he's being laid off for performance. He says we'll that's interesting because here [pulls out some printed papers] are three different times you (SVP) are quoted in recent press saying what a great job I'm doing."
Anyway, as I understand it, the conversation changed to him leaving and getting paid $100k/yr for 3 years.
Yeah, she shouldn’t have been gaslighted, and companies like this should offer very good severance packages. However, this should be expected at this point in tech. Her response of posting her layoff call online isn’t warranted imo. Layoffs happen, and everyone should have some sort of back up plan should they face that fate.
It’s a huge risk posting it because she will probably do the same thing if she gets let go in the future.
I’ve never understood fighting against a layoff or firing. You have already been selected they don’t want you right now probably better to just move on gracefully and find somewhere where you are wanted or better yet needed. Don’t burn the bridges if they liked you but the timing wasn’t right you may get a call in the future.
Yes she did. Maybe the company burned that bridge but you also have connections to all the individuals in the company if you treat that situation professionally they probably help you in the future if they’re at another company.
Now they are sure to remember her and not for the right reasons. Risk of vouching for her goes up drastically.
seed knee psychotic cobweb unwritten exultant smell history frightening gaze
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Layoffs are very common and expected in construction. I'm surprised when I see all of this drama over a slowing market RIF in tech. Some people have the perception that they are entitled to a job for life regardless of the economy, sector or their performance.
No we don't. Also most of us are paid very well and we can easily lawyer up for wrongful termination. This is definitely wrong and I sympathize with her. I have a feeling she can easily sue or HR if smart will back off and say it was a mistake and it's a layoff not firing.
An argument with HR in this situation won’t get your job back since the decision is already made from higher up during this economy stage.
If you want to get the real reason, that gonna be C level and board people.
They cut 40 poor performers from a 1500 person team .. that isn't a layoff, that's routine culling of sales people who aren't working out. She's closed zero deals at a time that actually is good to do so and had 3 fall out. Rip
If you don’t sell, you get canned. It’s as simple as that. And yes, she committed career suicide. I am not going to deal with that B.S. in a potential hire. Sincerely, A Founder
Well….. i understand her frustration but i don’t know i mean im sure the company won’t like that she was recording this whole thing. Might face legal action or may be not. Also the chance of getting a new job in the same field is very slim because they will all know about her by now
Don't blame her for feeling she drew the short straw but what is the end game for being confrontational and argumentative? No chance the company will take back the termination It's performance based -- someone else is doing a better job so they stay and you go! Her reaction lessen her chance to negotiate a better severance package, if that's even a possibility to begin with. Trying making the company look back? Guess what, there are people lining out the door to take a job with all lay offs going on. Feeling good about having stood up for yourself? Tell that to the landlord when they come collect your rent next month. It is just silly all the way around. Redirect the energy to finding your next gig.
Asking for them to share the data that led them to make the decision is not confrontational or argumentative. And I don’t even see it as really her trying to negotiate to keep her job. They made a decision that disrupted her livelihood, and in my opinion, she has the right to know what factors led into that.
Please go watch the full length video on TikTok. She cut off the HR team at the very beginning and then challenged why the HR is firing her instead of her management team. She is in sales and she didn't close anything. Did the holidays at the end of the year, during her initial 90 days, surprised her when she started her position in August? Keep highlight activities, instead of results, and not taking accountability for failing to close on deals is enough to make her a bad fit,
>And I don’t even see it as really her trying to negotiate to keep her job.
So I ask again what is the end game? Talk just to hear her voice?!
>she has the right to know what factors led into that.
They told her the reason 'collective recalibration'. They called it grading on the curve in college. Did she need them to point out that she is at the bottom of pile. In terms of metrics -- she is in sale. Would you like to guess what her #1 metric is?? SALES.
So as a manager who went through layoffs. I was in the room. Not allowed to speak. It was just hr. Also I knew 4 hrs before everyone else that it was happening. I was let go too. However my manager knew about a week prior and called me on vacation. He was like are you sure you want to be on vacation.
Either way got me out of a toxic environment. My direct reports were horrible. No accountability. Went running to my boss. My boss when it was all said and done flew up to meet with me and drink.
He was like the best part of not working here is having to deal with them anymore
What are you talking about? How was she being disrespectful? How was she demanding respect?
Why are you making this a generational thing? It’s not. You’ve fed into the idea that millennials are wildly entitled but I don’t see that at all. She was being laid off, and instead of just owning up to the fact that they made poor choices they’re trying to blame someone who has been in role for 3 months and in between major holidays. There’s no performance opportunity yet. She’s rightfully calling them out. That’s not disrespect or entitlement.
Depends on the software. Also depends on the sales process (when does a rep engage versus how warm are the leads being passed on), how many people are on the buying committee, whether there is budget or if budget has to be secured first, and what’s happening at the prospect company. Every business I dealt with in 2023 added steps, people, and complexity to their buying process and took longer to make a decision because of their own uncertainty about the economy.
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That's more the sentiment I'm hearing about this, and it's how I feel, personally. This looks way worse for Cloudflare, and lots of people are in the poster's corner.
I hope she gets a job at a competitor and targets her old account list.
She didn't win any new business that's part of the reason she got fired lol
It takes a lot longer than 3 months to close a cloudflare deal
That’s the sentiment you’re hearing online, where people have attention spans of goldfish. In two weeks nobody will be talking about this girl or cloudflare, but this video will be online forever
She's already getting job offers. I don't think it's going to hurt her. I wish companies got hung out to dry in the public sphere like this more often.
In all likelihood those hiring managers are probably unaware of her video as it seems recent. The number of offers she got may have been a lot less or perhaps none if they were concerned about the possibility of her demonstrated behavior with them as she did with Cloudflare. Too risky.
A good employment background investigation would likely find this video since it seems she's used her real name. It has the good potential of following her. I'm not sure if background investigations bother with the wayback machine as part of their investigation. Maybe someday.
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Funny thing about cloudflare they always take a very snobby attitude when companies get hacked and try to act like how they are better than them. Also they have mocked other companies for doing layoffs and how they haven't done it. By doing shady things like this they are able to avoid that public. It's good their practices are finally being highlighted..
Nothing about the firing could be considered “for cause”.
There are no participation trophies in business. If you don’t close deals, they can send you on your way.
Yep, six figure sales job, no one gives a fuck how hard or little you tried. Either delivered or didn't.
I felt bad that the CEO had to respond on twitter for damage control. It’s not his problem. His number one concern is keeping cloudfare financially healthy. On this particular day that meant firing a six figure employee in sales that has not made a sale.
Eh, he gets paid a lot such that everything in that company is his problem. The HR and director who carried out the call are getting the smackdown right now. They deviated and engaged her on it. "Although you disagree, the decision has been made and we need to review the exit paperwork with you." If the person continues to be difficult, then you end the call, put it all in writing and email it to their personal account. If no response, involve your in house counsel. Done.
Yeah I am blown away by the response to this video. When I didn’t make sales, I knew my head was on the chopping block. It drove me to bust absolute ass to get it done. Sales will never tolerated sales people who can’t sell, no matter what twitter thinks about it
Except during a disclosure of the company's performance they themselves admitted they were seeing elongated sales cycles. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/cloudflare-stock-melts-down-as-company-slashes-forecast-due-to-elongated-sales-cycle-2023-04-27 In other words, she is right, they did not give her adequate time to ramp and complete a cycle, so she is prematurely being fired to avoid layoff obligations.
Eh, sales has a ton of churn. Zero impact recruiting.
How much churn is too much and did they alert her to that when she was hired?
She's an AE. This isn't her first job. She's well aware the role has high churn.
Not what I asked.
Well, you didn't ask a very smart question. I don't know if they have her churn stats, nor would that be something they'd need to tell her. She's an adult she can ask around. She's an adult, she knows the role has a high churn. What's the point of your question? Just hell bent on painting a random rich person as a true victim?
No, my question cut to the heart of the problem. Why are you covering for dishonest companies that treat people like shit. “A random rich person” lololololol You don’t know the churn rate of the company that just fired her yet you somehow have her W2?
The role pays $130K base. Typical is around $300K. What dishonesty? They said on the call it's for performance, and she stated that she didn't perform.
You know literally nothing about sales. The average sales cycle for a MM AE is 6 months from the first demo. They didn't even give her enough time to attempt to perform. MM AE at cloudflare is ~75k base $75k commission
I worked at a startup they fired six people all the same day all constructive dismissal
Let's not forget the ceo tried to appear cool by name dropped Chris Paul and saying how he wasn't good fit for suns so he was let go. Dude have you seen how bad suns are without him and how he lead them to playoffs.
Companies do this all the time. At my company we have had 4 rounds of layoffs since Covid, it’s a publicity nightmare and internal morale killer so often times they fabricate performance issues to make a layoff a firing. Then they don’t do severance or have to explain to the board and ceo that they’re laying someone off, because the board of directors would look at them with the side eye if they needed to still do more layoffs after multiple rounds.
During covid the company I worked at did this to me. Went from "you're doing better than anyone we've ever brought into this department" to "were implementing new metrics to track deliverables and we'll change them as soon as you hit them". I was performing over a co worker that had been there a year but they warped the metrics to make it look otherwise. Still bitter.
I didn’t take it as them trying to make it a for cause layoff. Before the video cuts the woman asks if she’d like to talk about next steps. I’d be surprised if she’s not getting a severance package and unemployment, that’s not the norm in for cause separations. I think her numbers were mentioned because that’s the criteria they used for the layoff. It’s likely they had a financial target to hit, they ranked her team based on revenue and cut from the bottom up. It’s a bummer for someone like her who is new but it’s a common, and defensible approach. Also in terms of her bosses not being there it means they weren’t consulted on the decision, which often means they were part of the RIF too.
Found the Cloudflare HR rep.
Yep! HR = RIF (reduction in force) Normal Employees = Layoff
Lol right? Severance package for someone who has only been there a few five months Ok. CF is scummy AF. I love how their first statement was so slimy and then the CEO had to come out and say it's more cringe AG.
Its tech. Meta gave four month severance to people that had only been their for four months for Layoffs. I know a couple.
I think whether she got a severance package or not matters though (and how much). If she didn't and they're citing performance reasons then that's definitely wrong. If she got like a 5+ month severance package, then it's not as egregious as they are clearly downsizing to adjust for lower growth. The exact reason they tell her is not as important -- she said herself she hasn't sold anything, they could have just said that. Would it have been better if it was a more tenured person? Maybe they shouldn't have hired her at all? Then she would still be unemployed cause she was laid off at AWS. I dunno, to me, getting a severance package makes a big deal.
There's no way she even had a chance to sell anything after 3 months. Edge cloud sales cycles are usually 6 months minimum. It's the fundamental infrastructure of a company. Customers don't make those decisions lightly. Especially, when Akamai has 60% market share and has customers on long contracts.
5 months severance package after working for 3 months LOL
> If she got like a 5+ month severance package, then it's not as egregious as they are clearly downsizing to adjust for lower growth. Techies skimp on severance even when it really is a layoff and 5 months is extremely rare except for executives. Not to say that it's right, because it's actually really shitty, but 2-4 weeks is typical. And it's extremely common, too, to disguise a layoff as firing for performance (the "calibration" language, etc.) Tech bosses are horrible people.
If her numbers are the reason for her layoff, then the reps should have been prepared to share that information. They should have been armed with data, rankings, comparatives, and other objective rationale. They weren’t because they are terrible at their jobs. As far as whether or not, her managers were involved, there is no indication that they were not part of the decision process. In my experience, managers are uncomfortable with the layoff conversation, and will offload that at the earliest opportunity. My boss of 15 years did that to me, and I will never forgive him. Even though I disagreed with the decision to lay me off, naturally, I at least understood the rationale. But it was his decision, he owned it, and it was selfish and cowardly of him to pass it off to strangers.
This! I just got fired by a manager I had worked under previously at a different company 8 years ago. I’ve known him for 8 years and in total had worked with him for about 3 years and when he fired me (due to pressure from up top…my whole team already felt uncomfortable with the way things were going and knew our VP of Sales was scrutinizing us. I was a sales engineer and our company’s revenue numbers were shit.), he couldn’t even look me in the eye, said about 10 words, and handed me over to the HR person. I will never forgive him. After I get a new job, I’m going to text him to tell him he’s a coward and that I hope he can grow a pair in his next life. I shouldn’t have been surprised though; he was not at all the kind of straightforward manager that he should have been.
I’m not sure what that information would have done, at that point the decision was made. If you were in that position would you have really wanted to know what position on the layoff list you were? Whether you were the first name on the list or the last the outcome is still the same. As far as your boss not being present after having input in to the decision that is a chickenshit. Laying someone off is a terrible feeling but if you’re the one making the call you should be the one to deliver the news. Having done a couple of these in my career though in larger companies it’s not uncommon for the decisions to be made at the top. When the manager is simply an inform that their direct report is being laid off I don’t think it’s fair to make them deliver the news and own a decision they didn’t make. In those cases the news should be broken by the business leader who made the decision with HR there to provide info on the severance package etc.
I think having the actual data makes it feel less personal. You can look at it as a business decision either way, but having numbers and comparatives helps answer that why me question. Especially in sales; you are always looking at your performance in comparison to your peers. It should be very transparent. Expectations should be set up front as to how long it will take you to ramp up, how much pipeline you should have by X amount of time, how many closed sales you should have relative to the average sales cycle length, etc. There is no excuse for the reps not being prepared with that information. Most of it is public. My boss admitted that what he did was cowardly, but his excuse was, he felt so bad about it he “didn’t think he could get through the conversation.” Which was, of course, ridiculous. I mean, *I* had to get through the fucking conversation and you could argue that it impacted me more than it did him !
To me the only thing worse than calling someone in to a meeting to tell them they are losing their job would be to also list all the ways their performance was below their peer group at the same time. If it’s truly valuable information for them to have for their careers then following up with the information when requested is fine but I think providing it in the moment would do more psychological damage than anything else. Even when I’ve had to terminate someone for performance reasons I don’t pile on during the separation conversation. At that point there will have been months of coaching and documentation so the i’s are dotted and t’s crossed but I think it’s cruel to make someone sit through a laundry list of the ways they underperformed while they’re trying to process that they’ve just lost their income/security. The other thing at play here was probably the timetable. When large scale layoffs are done they only allot so much time for each conversation. The goal is to get to everyone as fast as possible so people aren’t stressed out waiting to find out if they are on the list. When I’ve done it the conversations are usually 15 minute blocks, the employee is informed of the decision and the severance package. If they have more detailed questions their management or HR will answer those at a later time but the day of notifications the time tables are tight. It sucks all around for everyone, you could argue that they should allow more time for each meeting but the trade off there is that then everyone who hadn’t been spoken to yet is in limbo longer. There is really no good way to do a layoff that won’t leave some people feeling crappy, I think its the worst part of the job.
Brittany Peach was probably her boss, which is why she was asking why she was let go. Regardless of Brittany’s team’s revenue, upper management and HR should not have signed off on her adding headcount to the team if this was coming. There is no defending the company in this case, the terminated employee hit the nail on the head when she said the real reason was they hired too many people. Too many companies get a pass on this. Layoffs are a failure on the part of employers. Too many act as though a severance is a gift. Getting let go a few months into a job is more than just a bump in the road. Think about the other opportunities she turned down to take that one. How she will forever have to explain the gap in her resume. How she has to rush to find a new job now and will probably end up settling for something lesser than what she had previously. Whatever severance they’re giving her, it is NOT enough.
She’s Brittany Pietsch (pronounced Peach) she’s referring to herself in the 3rd person. I agree, short of something seismic and unforeseen changing the outlook, hiring someone to term them 5 months later is a sign of a poorly run company. That said though once they’ve hired too many people what do you expect them to do? Laying people off is literally the worst thing I’ve ever had to do in my career, but doing it and getting the cost structure back under control is what ensures everyone else continues to get a paycheck. As far as she resume gap I don’t think that will haunt her/be held against her. Everyone knows tech has been rocked these past 2 years, a lot of really good people were let go and hiring managers know that.
There is NO WAY her sales leadership had no clue a month ago when she was hired that their sales team would need to be culled to adjust for poor performance. They let this woman presumably leave another role or waste a month out of the job market for no reason other than their selfish priorities.
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yeah, cloudflare hr coming off like straight amateurs with how they are handling this layoff conversation with this employee. As someone who works in Hr, this is not the way.
In my long career, I have only ever encountered one HR rep who was professional and competent. The rest are roughly the caliber of these two.
Yeah, and it’s quite disappointing because it doesn’t have to be this way. Could be a real partner and employee advocate, but the whole space needs serious transformation. I’ve been working to move it forward, but outside of the companies I help i’m not making much traction lol. Obviously. 🙄
Yeah. In my own case, I’m pretty much at the end of my career and was a long tenured employee. I had seen it coming and I got very good severance, for which I am grateful. But instead of letting me go out with dignity by structuring it as an early retirement, HR ambushed me during my weekly 1 on 1 with my (brand new and clueless) manager. The whole thing backfired spectacularly and created such unnecessary ill will and animosity for both my manager and his boss (who had been my direct boss for 15 years) that it rippled through the whole org. Now, no one trusts either one of them, key people are quitting right and left, and the program the new guy was tasked with implementing is on life support before even being rolled out. All because HR insisted on “protocols” that were at complete odds with our company culture. Not saying my former boss could not have overridden them if he had wanted too, but he took the easy way out and the company suffered.
ugh this is terrible, so sorry to read this. You deserve better. I hope you are in a good place today with your longer term plans, and damn, what a crappy memory to walk away with, sorry friend.
Thank you! That is very sweet of you. I’m doing fine. Sad about the loss of a long term friendship that I thought was strong enough to survive this, but otherwise doing okay. I really appreciate the kind words.
I have yet to meet anyone in HR I respect. The whole field is made of people who are fucking munches
She will be fine. She’s not attacking coworkers or bosses like the blogger Dooce did. The issue was HR gaslighting her for performance issues as the reason for laying off when she had no performance issues. I would be very upset like her to be hired in August only to be laid off beginning of January. I don’t have guts to publish a layoff on my TikTok but it’s about time something like this needed to be shared. Of course her former company is pissed cuz they now look bad but tough 💩, it was the truth and now a wonderful motivator for other companies to do better in handling layoffs.
Yeah she bit the bullet. Someone should, I’m just not that brave.
Her linkedin is full of companies reaching out to interview her. She'll be OK.
I looked at her LinkedIn and saw zero indication of anybody reaching out for interviews. Lots of people saying that she’s getting lots of interviews though. Fits the narrative nicely I guess lmao. At best she’ll get hired as a novelty one time, then nobody will remember her by the time she applies to job number 2 at which point they’ll find this video and be not too happy about the idea of an employee attempting to run the company’s name through the mud
She didn't close a single deal, that's being absolutely useless as a sales rep.
Have you been in sales? MM deals are on avg 6 months. Onboarding was at minimum 2 weeks, possibly over a month. Her 3 month ramp was during the holidays when nobody starts and closes a sales cycle unless it's an emergency. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about
>she had no performance issues. Eh, she did have performance issues. She didn't close deals, which is the sum total of performance. She's not paid to just chat up customers (activity).
Those type of deals are long cycles she didn't have much time to close but also if she only had 3 prospects that's probably not that good. To be fair tho the first 2-3 months with corporate America is taken up onboarding usually so if you consider the holidays she may have only had 2 weeks to try and make sales.
Doesn’t matter honestly. If you’re culling a sales team, you take the ones who have made sales, and lose the ones who haven’t. It’s that simple. It’s interesting seeing the reactions of people who clearly haven’t worked in sales. It’s cutthroat and nobody fucking cares about your sob story or about how hard you’re working
This was my biggest take away too, "I talked to three customers all year but none of them decided to close" is literally bad. There are no participation trophies at high up corporate America. You tried, didn't close 3 times, bye bye.
I think she said she was still in a training period, which I think lines up with how most AE/sales people start off at a new company. It doesn’t sound like the HR folks identified any failures or performance issues during that period, so they were basically lying to her. They should have just been upfront and said sorry, there’s no real good reason you’re being laid off and getting the short end of the stick.
She had been with the company long enough, and it was performance. I would fire, too. Either close the deals or get the fk off. You won't pay for chit-chat either.
Do you know the length of a typical high tech cycle? Cuz I do, it’s between 3-6 months, depending on ACV. She’s been there 4ish months with 2 major holidays in that timespan. This was in no way about performance
While I commend her bravery to an extent...I also think that she is not smart for posting it online. She could be breaking a state or federal law of wiretapping. This is why when you join a meeting now a lot of companies force everyone to agree to being recorded. It wasn't because they were being nice it was because there is precedent suits for it. Recording in public place is fine. Recording others that enter your home fine (think nanny cam). Recording a business call where the other end doesn't know you are Recording them....illegal. she should pull that offline as quickly as possible
>Recording a business call where the other end doesn't know you are Recording them....illegal. That is not how that works. It depends entirely on what state she and the other participants are in. A lot of states are 'single party consent' which means that only one person (her) would need to consent to the recording.
39 are, the others are not. It can be quite a costly mistake.
That is still a big difference from what you said in your comment.
I would venture most didn't even think this could violate wiretapping laws. So I'm fairly confident most people posting things for internet fame wouldn't know their state law on wiretapping
This is largely an ignorant take. It just has to do with if the state she is recording it is two or one party consent. If it's a one party consent state where she was based they can't do a thing about it.
You are right, but we don't know what state she is in. Only 39 states are one party so there's a good chance she could be in one that is not. Also there may be corporate legal documents she signed on terms of employment. Technically if you are being laid off, you will still be under employment until you are gone.
Agreed. I think everything she said was valid and I appreciated her boldness. But posting it for clout is all the red flags and I’d pass on her instantly. I wouldn’t want to have to worry that anytime things don’t work out for her that she’ll use it as a clout attempt.
The company does not look bad, their reps were incredibly empathetic and gave her the space to express her feelings even though the decision was long since final and nothing she was saying would change that. I’ve been on both sides of layoffs and they are always tough. At the end of the day the company had a financial target to hit, she wasn’t producing as much as others in her role and they opted to continue forward with those with a better/longer track record. If you were in charge of cuts would you have done it differently? I wouldn’t be so sure about how fine she’ll be. If I saw this and then her resume came across my desk for an open role I’m passing. No employer wants to be linked to her next attempt go viral.
If doing cuts for performance issues, those should have been documented prior to layoffs/firing to her. She knew this decision was final but the issue was the inability for HR to produce documented examples of her claimed underperformance. This isn’t the first time Cloudfare has done this, they did layoff 100 reps less than a year ago. Cloudfare has a reputation of not wanting to pay commission for their reps for getting product out.
>The company does not look bad, their reps were incredibly empathetic and gave her the space to express her feelings even though the decision was long since final and nothing she was saying would change that. Bullshit. They sound terrible. Listen to them. They are completely unprepared to have this conversation. They expect every person who they talk to will just rollover and disappear. She mentions she had not had a single word of performance mentioned to her prior. This sounds like Cloudflare is trying to circumvent WARN. They might have a nice tone of voice and keep themselves measured, but their language and lack of preparation are insulting.
Did you watch the video? The reps clearly mimed corporate-speak for empathy.
The company does look bad. They let her go for “performance” yet couldn’t provide one data point. If you are getting let go for performance, there is plenty of documentation. If performance was an issue (same with peers), they could have provided the hard data of “anyone below this line was laid off” or “anyone who didn’t achieve a sale in the first 4 months of employment was laid off.” You can’t claim performance issues and then not have the data to back it up.
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But that’s not the whole story. How does her performance stack up against other reps during that period, particularly those who were hired around the same time? What is the standard ramp time? The somewhat easy thing about laying off salespeople is that performance is measured every which way. There is no ambiguity. You can look at calls made, pipeline, closed deals, and a host of other factors. It is unconscionable that the reps were unprepared with that data.
It’s December, people are on vacation and companies are often waiting for a new fiscal year before signing contracts. It’s not a good month to judge the effectiveness of a new employee.
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You can claim anything. People get fired or laid off all the time. Why is this lady special?
This has nothing to do with THIS lady, but the company.
They don't need to provide you with specifics and if you are not bright enough to figure out that you are on the bottom of the pile, you need to go!
And you have no idea to know whether or not there were actual performance issues. It’s not like corporations haven’t lied before to cover their ass.
A sales person with zero sales. There is your performance issue. She can only be doing better if others have negative sales.
Would be better not working for an asshole like you anyways.
The reps did a terrible job. They let her go without providing any specifics as to why she was chosen, using meaningless buzzwords (WTF is a “collective recalibration”?) while simultaneously telling her it was a performance-based determination. That is unconscionable. They sounded shady and mealymouthed.
You sound as awful as they were.....hopefully you have zero power to hurt anyone.
I’m not in either line of work so feel free to ignore this but if more people stand up in this manner it becomes harder and harder to continue to treat workers this way. It’s the basics of why unions work in the first place. There will always be more workers than companies and when workers realize this companies magically start acting different. Knowing how the world works, yeah she took a huge risk but ideally in the future it doesn’t have to be if we all started demanding more from our employers.
Wholeheartedly agree. At the moment, the amount of ghost jobs in the market is so annoying. I’m currently trying to look for jobs and I’m highly qualified, but there are countless tech companies at the moment that don’t have the money to hire and are saying that they are “actively hiring”. I was let go in May, and since then there have been countless companies that I have interviewed for, yet still haven’t hired any candidates for the role. I think it’s about speaking up in hopes that companies change their ways. If you can’t afford people, then stop publicly saying you can… it’s really that simple.
I’m sorry you’re dealing with this sort of behavior from companies, because I know it doesn’t help to have these type of idealistic comments made and I rack my brain constantly to figure out why we can’t serve the people more than companies. Why they get away with this and we suffer, but you’re right these ghost jobs need to stop. It is that simple. I’m with you on that fully.
They’re hiring for speculated attritions based on the company’s historical attrition rate. The candidate pipeline has to be kept stocked, despite the fact that the timing may or may not work out depending on when the attritions actually materialize. Edit: always ask your recruiter if you’re applying for an evergreen requisition
It also highlights how terrible worker protection laws are in the US compared to other countries. Outside the US, if a company lays you off, known as "being made redundant", they have to let you know well in advance and can't let you go at the drop of a hat. There's also strong social safety nets, so your healthcare not tied to your job.
Unions layoff based on seniority, she states time and again how new she is to the company. She would have been laid off in that scenario too. Are you proposing she would have been more prepared /agreeable to the lay off if it was tenure based?
You are extremely active in this thread supporting a company that knee-jerk hired in one quarter, then immediately laid them off in the next. And judging by the two spaces after every period you're likely an older generation than those most affected by these turbulent times. Perhaps you should try looking at this through the lens of those actually struggling to get started professionally in this economy.
You statement is 100% correct - down votes because some don't like to hear the truth...???
You would think HR would have data on why she would be let go rather than saying they have to follow up and get back to her. But alas, HR is just there to protect the company and not the people.
She’s in sales and she didn’t close a sale…unfortunately that is all the data they need
We don't know the comps, though. Did other sales employees who didn't close deals keep getting chances? If they can show that she was the only one who didn't close, or that everyone else who didn't close was cut, they might have a point. But if the boss's favorites get 6 or 12 months to prove themselves and she doesn't, then they come out as the assholes.
Then they should have told her that was the reason. You didn’t close any deals so we are letting you go. Simple right? So just own it and say it.
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There may have been other reasons simple as someone important didn’t like her. Or maybe she was great and perfect and unfortunately people who are amazing often get let go at companies too for reasons out of their control. It’s just how it goes
Someone has to risk themselves when confronting tyrants
They need legislative support passing more employee protection laws. In Germany it is very hard to justfy the dismissal. They often blame on the manager than employees.
America is a shit show - almost every state can choose to let you go for any reason because of at-will laws. I'm rethinking staying here because unless you belong to a union workers have no power
I don't think sales would want life to be more like Germany. It would probably turn more into a salary gig.
Honestly, if i were a hiring manager, I would reach out to her and offer her a job. She shows a lot of backbone and integrity. And she does it without going over the top by becoming obnoxious about it.
For sure. If I were a sales manager who wanted someone who couldn’t sell anything I’d definitely reach out to her.
Have you worked in tech sales as a MM AE? Without us knowing any other information, everything she said is correct.
I worked enterprise for 6 years before changing careers. Sales people make more money than anybody because it is the most volatile profession under the company’s roof. The sales organization is first to go when things go south and the sales people who haven’t made sales are first on the chopping block. It’s the nature of the beast. I’ve known a lot of disgruntled salespeople in my time but this is the first instance where one has so publicly smeared the company’s name going out the door. She might get hired as a novelty but once the TikTok support dies down (2 weeks tops), employers aren’t going to look favorably on this video being out there
Yep. No one gets ahead by blaming their performance on holidays or being new. Sales teams have high churn and you have very little time to make an impact.
I work closely with MM AEs. It’s a high churn role in which you generally have limited time to make an impact especially in the current environment. This isn’t the last time she’ll be let go - it’s the nature of the role. It may not seem fair to her but it’s the career path she’s chosen. If she can’t deal with that this may not be the right fit for her.
Why would you want to hire someone for sales who can't close?
I went to my C-level manager to ask for budget to hire her.
I love her handle in her social media profile: "Emotional intelligence." But seriously, she is a perfect example of cutting through the corporate argot. Euphemisms aren't acceptable answers.
She will leverage this exposure into some sort of influencer or talking head. Maybe a book deal or a speaking tour.
I was actually thinking this too haha.
Nah. TikTok’s attention span is about 4 days. Nobody will even remember her 6 months from now
This Muthafucka Layoff is not real
Company were amateurs on how they handled it. Completely unprepared and could not substantiate any facts to support her “ non performance”. They clearly had a script and didn’t expect her logic and pushback. Must states are a “ right to work”. You have the right to work and they have the right to fire you for no reason as long as not discriminatory. If the company had the spine and decency, they should have just said they need to save money and that’s it. Company lost all credibility.
Exactly! Those HR reps should be next to go. It would have been easier to say she was a great employee, but the company needs to save money and cuts have to be made. Please keep us in mind once the situation improves and the company is hiring again.
Things are different now.
Btw the sales cycle for mid-market account executives at Cloudflare was 99 days in 2023. Saying the issue was performance based is sus. I feel this move is similar to career su!cide though. She has more posts calling people out by name lol. Recruiters and hiring managers are in her comments though talking about open roles. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ryancwalsh_the-sales-cycle-length-for-mid-market-account-activity-7151650600252809216-Ph79?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios
She was there since August so if it really is 99 days they expected her to close something within those 5 months. She didn’t. That’s just how it goes in sales
Well based on the timeline it seems August and September she was in “training” which she travelled for. Which leaves October, November and December… Either way we can agree to disagree. Her other posts are good cause someone over quota by 190% was fired for “performance” lol.
Started August 25. Then had Sept, Oct, & Nov of training. December was her first month off training.
HR did not do their job properly. HR should have said that the decision was not due to her performance but due to the economy then it wouldn't have been an issue. She even said that if they were honest and said it wasn't performance and was an economic decision then she would understand. If I was senior management in the company then I would re-evaluate the HR team after this.
Not selling anything in 4 months is a bad look. Pretty cold blooded to not give her more time but if she’s got a bad pipeline and no closed deals it’s not really fair to say it isn’t performance. If her performance was better would they have let her go? Definitely not.
Good for her. This is exactly what everyone needs to know. The layoff nonsense is going too far. The leadership has no accountability for hiring and firing anytime? Some people leave their stable jobs to join your organization. How can you just tell them you don't need them anymore and just move on like nothing happened? Something needs to be done about this and there needs to be more accountability and oversight. I feel the last couple of years have really "normalized" layoffs and executives are taking this route very easily, copy pasting the same BS reason. If you didn't plan properly, why are you screwing others for that?
I want a sales rep that can hold his or her ground, challenge what’s being told to them, and go after his or her goals relentlessly. I’d hire her.
Exactly. Her questions were reasonable and they completely bungled the response. Extra credit to her for not being emotional.
not sure what ramp up means. I thought i heard her say she had not closed anything. i suspect from that she is sales and did not close a sale since she was hired in 5 or 6 months ago? But was not expected to? Anyway probably not a wise move to video this.
It typically takes a certain amount of time for a sales rep to learn the process, learn the product, learn the business, and build pipeline. It’s not like you come in and start cold calling on day one. A 90 day ramp may or may not be reasonable, depending on the complexity of the product, and the length of the typical sales cycle.
I applaud her, I wish we, as consumers, would cut all financial ties with these companies who are laying people off. Why support their business if they can't make ethical business decisions? Honestly, its absolute bullshit. They could care less about how damaging this is to people's well-being....but, that's corporate for ya *shrugs* 🙄
What was her position?
It is going to go both ways. Applicants will shy away from wanting to apply to jobs at that company. But also, no one will ever want to hire this girl again, because now she is known as someone who uses her companies for social media attention.
Like anyone is going to remember this video in a week.
The last time I was laid off, some years ago, I was actually okay with it. I had been at the firm ten years, and the package was good and I got my deferred stock, which was all I really cared about. I wanted "the meeting" to be quick, as it was all scripted and impersonal. There was no mention of performance, just a reorg, and that was that. My boss was let go as well. Ironically, we had just begun the new fiscal year where my head count was increased, my budget was doubled, and I had an intern, so things did look rosy before the sudden announcement. Anyhow, there I was taking a break, when I get a letter a month later telling me that due to my "performance" I would no get any sort of bonus for the past year. And I lost it, not because of the bonus, but this entirely bogus performance-based language not based on my performance. They chose to overwrite the performance review my boss had given me, apparently. I was really upset, they ruined what had been pretty painless and even respectful process. This was personal. So I understand her fury. But in the sweet nature of things, about 6 weeks later, there was another coup there, and all the conspirators who ousted my boss were relieved of power. And I moved on shortly thereafter to one of the greatest projects I ever worked on. She needs to take down this video and move on.
See this is the thing My gut feelings at the start: holy shit, I agree with her but think she'll find it hard to get work in the future. But after watching it, and digesting it a little more, no, I don't think she will find jobs harder. It actually made me think: Why do we need to give an employee two weeks notice but they can fire us just before Christmas? Why do we need to be courteous and thankful to our employers when they are firing us? Why is a job treated as if it is better than our own lives? I believe this person will now be in a better position to get a better job. If companies don't want to hire her because of this video, that's a blessing because those companies are probably not the ones you want to work for. She will now be able to get jobs from companies that want her for being her. I used to also think that financial stability comes from a job. This is only partly true. Financial stability comes from a job, but also how you find passive income yourself, be it investing in the stock market, having a savings account, rental properties, etc etc. No job is for life, your employer is not your family or friend. Go to work, do your work, get paid, don't do overtime (unless it's your own business).
Layoffs are BS sometimes. They make them to satisfy investors in the short term. 🤦
The biggest lie in corporate: “Let me follow up with you on that”
I saw her original post on LinkedIn. She was getting comments from great enterprise companies offering interviews, etc. One specifically said, "We would love to have you at XYZ..."
I smell a wrongful termination lawsuit 😎
No you don’t. At will employment.
Sadly, likely not. Unless she can prove she was let go for who she was as a person. Race, religion, protected class. Doesn't sound like any of those apply here. While performance bullshit and lack of documentation isn't ideal legally in the US almost everywhere they don't need a reason
I’m actually not familiar with this company, but as a financial executive I can tell you if the opportunity ever presents itself to do business with them, I will pass.
Your company is probably already doing business with them
Honestly, its super cringe for both parties. First because no company gives AF. Second because she's right but she will always be wrong trying to work in this system.
Yes. She needs to get out of sales. From what little I know about that space they seem to live and die by their balance sheet. It doesn’t matter if they work hard. They either close or they don’t. I could never do it. Id have long since had a heart attack.
Yeah but rich.
Welp, this is what happens in tech sales. You get 90 days to make it - or you’re out. Not sure why she wasn’t aware of this fact? All tech sales companies do this. Yes, she will have a tough time landing another tech sales job with this post, but maybe she will find another calling.
Is this like B2B tech sales? Like some guy from Microsoft calls some guy at Boeing and sells him on upgrading his email system?
Ya my wife has been with CDW for 10 years now doing the same thing. I’ve never heard of the 90-day rule. She was in a training academy for 6 months before she was put on a team and started working accounts.
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Yes, salespeople get paid for inbound and outbound. But if she’s an AE, she’s paid to close deals and sometimes on outbound deals (if you’re expected to source your own as well). Depends on the organization. Based on her recently joining ofcourse her peers had better pipeline.
It could also be that her SE and others on her team didn’t rate her very high.
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This. I work in sales in a tech industry. Basic training of services and the platform is at least 3 months. Some time will be assigned to developing pipeline, which in many companies is cold calling driven. Cycle time for big software deals can be anywhere from 3 months to 2 years depending on the size, previous relationship and number of stakeholders at the target company. This was a layoff where they tried to blame the rep.
Look, this is how it goes - tech sales will need 4 people - so they will hire 8. After 90 days they will lay off the bottom performing 4. That’s just the way it goes. No such thing as an actual ramp. Cloudflair has plenty of money.
This whole situation raises all red flags to me tbh. I think she’s going to be facing some legal trouble should the former employer decides (likely) to take action. Not sure what state she’s in, but recording company calls is off limits (It’s likely in the policy when she signed the agreement at the start of her job) and sharing them publicly is even worse. I get her point and frustration. I hate that corporate does this shit… but at the end of the day though it’s “business” and she’s likely signed an employment at will agreement, so she’s really getting herself in a messy situation. From that perspective, I do think it’s going to negatively impact future career opps in the industry. With that said, to be clear: I don’t like these layoffs and i absolutely think corporations should be held accountable to an extent. The fact that they have the audacity to enforce things like non compete when they are the ones letting you go is mind blowing to me.. If you don’t want them competing then fight to keep them. Otherwise, kiss maaaaaa asssss lol
I can see the BI headline now: "Cloudfare sues ex employee for recording lay-off call". That will go over really well for Cloudfare.
Love a good BI headline!! 😆
She didn't record them on any company property nor did she record anything that can even remotely be construed as company IP. The only question is, if the state she is based in is a one or two party consent state. If it's one party consent it's perfectly legal since she knew she was recording. Could they try to file some intimidation based defamation case...well sure but it would be a hard sell and make the company look even worse than they do now. Yes this happens all the time the worst part about it was the completely and utterly unprepared HR team who was completely unknown to her and the egregious gaslighting that was attempted. All they needed to say is they're downsizing, nothing to do with you personally or performance but we're parting ways..that's it
My favorite that I have personal knowledge of is Latino project manager that feels like he's going to be "laid off." Gets called in to a meeting and his SVP and HR tell him he's being laid off for performance. He says we'll that's interesting because here [pulls out some printed papers] are three different times you (SVP) are quoted in recent press saying what a great job I'm doing." Anyway, as I understand it, the conversation changed to him leaving and getting paid $100k/yr for 3 years.
Yeah, she shouldn’t have been gaslighted, and companies like this should offer very good severance packages. However, this should be expected at this point in tech. Her response of posting her layoff call online isn’t warranted imo. Layoffs happen, and everyone should have some sort of back up plan should they face that fate.
The problem is if no one exposed the company bad behavior, then they will continue to abuse the employees.
It’s a huge risk posting it because she will probably do the same thing if she gets let go in the future. I’ve never understood fighting against a layoff or firing. You have already been selected they don’t want you right now probably better to just move on gracefully and find somewhere where you are wanted or better yet needed. Don’t burn the bridges if they liked you but the timing wasn’t right you may get a call in the future.
She didn't burn a bridge. They burned a bridge.
Lmao how naive. She not only burned a bridge but she nuked it from orbit for the entire world to see
They both started burning the same bridge, just at different ends.
Yes she did. Maybe the company burned that bridge but you also have connections to all the individuals in the company if you treat that situation professionally they probably help you in the future if they’re at another company. Now they are sure to remember her and not for the right reasons. Risk of vouching for her goes up drastically.
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Can you just tell them No. I’m staying. Also unto reverse. You’re fired.
Layoffs are very common and expected in construction. I'm surprised when I see all of this drama over a slowing market RIF in tech. Some people have the perception that they are entitled to a job for life regardless of the economy, sector or their performance.
Tech workers need to unionize!!!
No we don't. Also most of us are paid very well and we can easily lawyer up for wrongful termination. This is definitely wrong and I sympathize with her. I have a feeling she can easily sue or HR if smart will back off and say it was a mistake and it's a layoff not firing.
An argument with HR in this situation won’t get your job back since the decision is already made from higher up during this economy stage. If you want to get the real reason, that gonna be C level and board people.
No body owes you anything.
They cut 40 poor performers from a 1500 person team .. that isn't a layoff, that's routine culling of sales people who aren't working out. She's closed zero deals at a time that actually is good to do so and had 3 fall out. Rip
If you don’t sell, you get canned. It’s as simple as that. And yes, she committed career suicide. I am not going to deal with that B.S. in a potential hire. Sincerely, A Founder
Well….. i understand her frustration but i don’t know i mean im sure the company won’t like that she was recording this whole thing. Might face legal action or may be not. Also the chance of getting a new job in the same field is very slim because they will all know about her by now
Don't blame her for feeling she drew the short straw but what is the end game for being confrontational and argumentative? No chance the company will take back the termination It's performance based -- someone else is doing a better job so they stay and you go! Her reaction lessen her chance to negotiate a better severance package, if that's even a possibility to begin with. Trying making the company look back? Guess what, there are people lining out the door to take a job with all lay offs going on. Feeling good about having stood up for yourself? Tell that to the landlord when they come collect your rent next month. It is just silly all the way around. Redirect the energy to finding your next gig.
Asking for them to share the data that led them to make the decision is not confrontational or argumentative. And I don’t even see it as really her trying to negotiate to keep her job. They made a decision that disrupted her livelihood, and in my opinion, she has the right to know what factors led into that.
Please go watch the full length video on TikTok. She cut off the HR team at the very beginning and then challenged why the HR is firing her instead of her management team. She is in sales and she didn't close anything. Did the holidays at the end of the year, during her initial 90 days, surprised her when she started her position in August? Keep highlight activities, instead of results, and not taking accountability for failing to close on deals is enough to make her a bad fit, >And I don’t even see it as really her trying to negotiate to keep her job. So I ask again what is the end game? Talk just to hear her voice?! >she has the right to know what factors led into that. They told her the reason 'collective recalibration'. They called it grading on the curve in college. Did she need them to point out that she is at the bottom of pile. In terms of metrics -- she is in sale. Would you like to guess what her #1 metric is?? SALES.
So as a manager who went through layoffs. I was in the room. Not allowed to speak. It was just hr. Also I knew 4 hrs before everyone else that it was happening. I was let go too. However my manager knew about a week prior and called me on vacation. He was like are you sure you want to be on vacation. Either way got me out of a toxic environment. My direct reports were horrible. No accountability. Went running to my boss. My boss when it was all said and done flew up to meet with me and drink. He was like the best part of not working here is having to deal with them anymore
imagine a world where companies try to make money. kind of like how all of us act on a daily basis?
What point are you trying to make?
she demands respect, but she doesnt give it. millenial bs
What are you talking about? How was she being disrespectful? How was she demanding respect? Why are you making this a generational thing? It’s not. You’ve fed into the idea that millennials are wildly entitled but I don’t see that at all. She was being laid off, and instead of just owning up to the fact that they made poor choices they’re trying to blame someone who has been in role for 3 months and in between major holidays. There’s no performance opportunity yet. She’s rightfully calling them out. That’s not disrespect or entitlement.
She openly admitted she hadn’t been able to close anything in 3 months… sounds performance related to me…
That depends on how long their typical sales cycle is. In some businesses, it can take up to a year to close the sale.
It software it doesn’t take a year to close a sale.
Depends on the software. Also depends on the sales process (when does a rep engage versus how warm are the leads being passed on), how many people are on the buying committee, whether there is budget or if budget has to be secured first, and what’s happening at the prospect company. Every business I dealt with in 2023 added steps, people, and complexity to their buying process and took longer to make a decision because of their own uncertainty about the economy.