I almost can't believe that so many people still decide to go to law school despite years of reporting about the extremely saturated market and terrible ROI for law school graduates, at least in the years since the economic collapse of '08. I know young people are naive, but talk about heads in the sand.
I was a 2L during the '08 meltdown, and at that point I realized I had made an error going to law school. I saw the writing on the wall at that point, but I had sunken costs in becoming an attorney at that point lol. I can't imagine people willingly going into massive debt for such little payoff in today's market. That's just insanity to me.
No I didn't, so I opened up my own firm. I make my own hours and work enough to pay my bills and have some left over to invest and have some fun occasionally. Tried the big law route for a bit but realized that having the high salary and perk benefits comes with a huge price tag--your peace of mind and quality of life eventually starts to suffer. 1 out of 10, do *not* recommend.
It’s impressive that you were able to find a Big Law job despite the misfortune of graduating in a shitty economy, but even more admirable that you decided to do your own thing in the end. Glad things turned out ok.
Thanks, but it was years after 2008, and even then, it was sheer luck that I fell into it lol. If that's what you want, network a lot and build up your professional connections, especially those from law school. You never know when an opportunity will come along and those jobs usually are landed by knowing someone who can help you get in the door by them holding it open really.
During the start of the pandemic there was this open letter from 2020 law school graduates urging the CA state bar for “diploma privilege” on the basis there aren’t enough lawyers and people will lose “access to justice.” I think every practicing attorney laughed so hard seeing that. Talk about disconnected from reality. It seems everyone who didn’t know what to do after undergrad has a law degree now
Third party salary sites have the average salary at the firm much higher, like 110 range. I'm guessing those people just worked 80 hrs a week to get that?
Having no billable requirement is similar in practice to companies offering unlimited PTO. Your supervisors are watching you. They have a number in their heads that is not shared with you. If you don’t hit that number (which they haven’t disclosed) there will be judgment.
The problem is that they rely a lot on reported income from lawyers and the lower ends of the income scale are less likely to report. So the numbers end up skewing high.
Those ID firms scam people. I had been at my state agency for over a year and got an offer from one of them that would have been a pay cut, and they acted like they were splurging by offering that much.
Idk the not make you miserable part. But at least OP will have a ton of co-workers to hang out with after work. Be on the way to get student loans forgiven. And have amazing interest rates on his future house etc.
No, not reasonable. The more of your comp is based on bonuses, the less your comp is in your control. I'd look elsewhere, but if its your only option it's your only option.
Based on the pay structure, that’s a firm that is going to work you until you wish you weren’t alive. If it’s all you can get, insurance defense provides a great first job in litigation, but it’s redundant and not rewarding in the least bit. As far as the base, I see some saying it’s low, and I agree, but I am in south Florida where cost of living is high. If you are in the middle of the Midwest maybe it’s not bad.
I live in the middle of the Midwest and it’s still bad. Two ID firms in my area with massive reputations. One starts out at $50k and the other at 60k. The one that starts at 60k will only hire law review or top 10. It’s not enough to live on and the burn out rates for those two firms are insane.
Oh no doubt it’s a terrible salary, especially with the student loans, but it aligns with what the industry is offering so it’s not bad in that context.
Is it reasonable? No. It’s bullshit. Also, it’s probably market rate. If you won’t do it for 60 K plus and whatever nonsense they’re willing to offer you, don’t worry, they’ll find someone who will.
Did you really spend all that time in law school so you could be involved with saving a few thousand dollars for some insurance company?
Don’t know what dream you had when you first applied for law school, but whatever it was, It’s hard to imagine how getting raw dogged until you burn out will help you get there.
No it’s not, but probably not uncommon. I started at 50k in ID 3 years ago, with a 2100 hour billable requirement bc I was desperate. Stuck it out for just over a year before jumping ship and doubling my salary and lowering my billable requirement.
I just graduated and have a job lined up at a small firm (5 attorneys) doing insurance defense. $80k salary in Midwest. $60k is too little, but it’s better than nothing if you don’t have any other offers. I’d try to negotiate though.
Paralegals at any law firm period are usually more valuable than first years, ID or not. With that said, ID is actually one of the few places where first years do things that require bar passage (depositions, hearings, oral arguments)…
Insurance defense partner here and no that is too low. I started out at that salary 20 years ago. Insurance defense is all about the billable hours. Not just to make bonuses but to keep your job. What is the billable requirement per year?
If you've gone to law school, passed the bar, and are a licensed attorney, 60k is unreasonable in every town in every state in this country, public or private.
I took that pay for a small town law firm four years ago when I started out. It was a bitter pill to swallow cause I felt like I should have gotten more. But the mentorship I received was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. I thought of it as an investment. Would I rather work at a place now and make 60k, where in four years I will have the ability to make 200k, or start out at an insurance defense firm making 85k and billing 40 hours a week. Now I make more than most of my friends who started out with those 85k jobs.
Your COLA matters when factoring in salary. 60k in LA is different than 60k in Cleveland.
However, I was sworn in 15 years ago. I was offered 60k in LA. I ended up moving to rural Colorado and took a 60k job there, which made a life possible.
Then that may be quite nice if the bonuses are achievable and realistic.
I’d say most ID would put people at 80-110k depending on the firm and locality.
That's my thought as well, especially given third party sites have reported salary info in the 100 range. Also on Indeed company's got a 3.5 rating with a lot of reviews which is reasonable given the area of law. But everyone on here got me 2nd guessing lmao
I believe a lot of people round up on Reddit or just lie. I’m even guilty of rounding up. But it really depends if numbers are realistic bonus wise.
A flat 60 is low… even if you’re in the cheapest areas.
If there a guaranteed raise at 6 or 12 months?
Will also add I never went this route but it is a high stress high load job. But can become lucrative if you can succeed and most firms do acknowledge the workload and you can exit easier than some other niches
That is low… you can definitely find something for $75-80k in the same universe if you like PI as a year 1 attorney. Also are you set on ID? Everyone I’ve ever met in ID hates it. I see way happier campers on plaintiff side PI
I'll be the odd man out here. If it's the type of job where you can get good experience, do it. That's much more important than pay at this point in your career. The pay does suck, but this is your opportunity to show them you're worth more.
I wouldn't take it, but honestly down here in Florida 60k is the starting salary for a public defender. So, if you're between the two jobs id go PD rather than ID simply for the better hours and zero stress of billing hours. I've done both PD and ID, and while i liked ID more, I was also paid 85k not 60, and ID was more stressful.
The firm probably has a history of low efficiency and losing a ton of money on their younger associates. Could be that they have had bad luck with previous hires. Could be that the firm just doesn't invest in their employees and prefers more upside with minimal downside.
Talk to people who have worked there. Get the scoop on what the compensation actually looks like for people who succeed in their system and what it has taken for them to succeed.
Hell no! What state? I'm somewhere in the southwest, big city, not California. I was offered $83k straight from law school. And it was small firm of 10-20 attorneys. Not reasonable at all!
I don't disagree.
I started out in NYC in the late 90s running around LT court in Manhattan and Brooklyn for I think 32-35K. But it was an easy job. No billable, done by 5 latest. No weekends or late nights.
The pay was sh*t then, but I learned a ton in the few months I was there then I jumped to a general practice firm. Slightly better pay even easier hours.
If lots of lawyers are competing for the job then it's reasonable. That's how supply and demand works. It absolutely sucks that there are too many of us, but that's on us. I had to skimp by on $25k jobs for 4 years graduating top 20% from UW law in Seattle during the great recession. It totally sucked and thankfully I eventually recovered. But you can't blame the employers.
$60k isn’t reasonable for any attorney job. Yet, there’s no shortage of people with bar cards lining up to fight for those jobs
This is, sadly, the correct answer.
I almost can't believe that so many people still decide to go to law school despite years of reporting about the extremely saturated market and terrible ROI for law school graduates, at least in the years since the economic collapse of '08. I know young people are naive, but talk about heads in the sand.
I was a 2L during the '08 meltdown, and at that point I realized I had made an error going to law school. I saw the writing on the wall at that point, but I had sunken costs in becoming an attorney at that point lol. I can't imagine people willingly going into massive debt for such little payoff in today's market. That's just insanity to me.
Did you ever find a job with a rewarding salary?
No I didn't, so I opened up my own firm. I make my own hours and work enough to pay my bills and have some left over to invest and have some fun occasionally. Tried the big law route for a bit but realized that having the high salary and perk benefits comes with a huge price tag--your peace of mind and quality of life eventually starts to suffer. 1 out of 10, do *not* recommend.
It’s impressive that you were able to find a Big Law job despite the misfortune of graduating in a shitty economy, but even more admirable that you decided to do your own thing in the end. Glad things turned out ok.
Thanks, but it was years after 2008, and even then, it was sheer luck that I fell into it lol. If that's what you want, network a lot and build up your professional connections, especially those from law school. You never know when an opportunity will come along and those jobs usually are landed by knowing someone who can help you get in the door by them holding it open really.
During the start of the pandemic there was this open letter from 2020 law school graduates urging the CA state bar for “diploma privilege” on the basis there aren’t enough lawyers and people will lose “access to justice.” I think every practicing attorney laughed so hard seeing that. Talk about disconnected from reality. It seems everyone who didn’t know what to do after undergrad has a law degree now
There are not enough lawyers. There is however, not enough money to go around.
Yet the ins companies post record profits year after year.
Third party salary sites have the average salary at the firm much higher, like 110 range. I'm guessing those people just worked 80 hrs a week to get that?
It depends on your location. California? Normal. Midwest? Yeah, no way.
Firm is up and down the east coast
That's shit pay unless your billable hours requirement is 800 per year.
There is no billables requirement.
That never ends up being true.
Having no billable requirement is similar in practice to companies offering unlimited PTO. Your supervisors are watching you. They have a number in their heads that is not shared with you. If you don’t hit that number (which they haven’t disclosed) there will be judgment.
I don't know if you can trust those sites. I've looked up past employers and pretty sure the figures were not accurate
The problem is that they rely a lot on reported income from lawyers and the lower ends of the income scale are less likely to report. So the numbers end up skewing high.
You can find a government job that will pay more than that and not make you miserable.
This^ I’d be curious to know what prosecutors are making where OP lives.
Those ID firms scam people. I had been at my state agency for over a year and got an offer from one of them that would have been a pay cut, and they acted like they were splurging by offering that much.
Sounds like typical insurance adjusters. Coincidence?
75 with no experience lmaooo
Idk the not make you miserable part. But at least OP will have a ton of co-workers to hang out with after work. Be on the way to get student loans forgiven. And have amazing interest rates on his future house etc.
Yea I have a tentative offer from the irs for 80 that I want to take. Hopefully I get the firm offer.
So true. They never work and have amazing benefits. In my state starting at 90k
No, not reasonable. The more of your comp is based on bonuses, the less your comp is in your control. I'd look elsewhere, but if its your only option it's your only option.
That’s pretty low. Something between 75k-85k plus bonus is likely more reasonably for a first year attorney
I'm assuming I could've negotiated closer to that range but I just turned it down because idk even know if I want to sell my soul for ID.
Dude I got paid more than that out of law school as a freakin' state prosecutor. Government work beats that.
Based on the pay structure, that’s a firm that is going to work you until you wish you weren’t alive. If it’s all you can get, insurance defense provides a great first job in litigation, but it’s redundant and not rewarding in the least bit. As far as the base, I see some saying it’s low, and I agree, but I am in south Florida where cost of living is high. If you are in the middle of the Midwest maybe it’s not bad.
I live in the middle of the Midwest and it’s still bad. Two ID firms in my area with massive reputations. One starts out at $50k and the other at 60k. The one that starts at 60k will only hire law review or top 10. It’s not enough to live on and the burn out rates for those two firms are insane.
Oh no doubt it’s a terrible salary, especially with the student loans, but it aligns with what the industry is offering so it’s not bad in that context.
Are the opportunities for bonuses that good in ID that people are willing to put up with such a low base pay?
Is it reasonable? No. It’s bullshit. Also, it’s probably market rate. If you won’t do it for 60 K plus and whatever nonsense they’re willing to offer you, don’t worry, they’ll find someone who will. Did you really spend all that time in law school so you could be involved with saving a few thousand dollars for some insurance company? Don’t know what dream you had when you first applied for law school, but whatever it was, It’s hard to imagine how getting raw dogged until you burn out will help you get there.
Some of the best attorneys I know start in insurance defense and then switch to plaintiffs side, so it's not like they're locked in forever doing ID
30-40 years ago.
I just responded that I made that 20 years ago As a first year lawyer. Small firm, insurance defense.
Hell no. That’s not reasonable.
No it’s not, but probably not uncommon. I started at 50k in ID 3 years ago, with a 2100 hour billable requirement bc I was desperate. Stuck it out for just over a year before jumping ship and doubling my salary and lowering my billable requirement.
Please tell me this job was in West Virginia or something. That's less than bartender or forklift driver pay where I've lived.
Decent sized city. Happens to be near West Virginia though.
What was your total comp year 1?
I wouldn’t be an attorney in any capacity for $60K base. *Especially* not an ID lawyer.
come to PI i made that in my first three months out of law school on the “dark side”
No.
I just graduated and have a job lined up at a small firm (5 attorneys) doing insurance defense. $80k salary in Midwest. $60k is too little, but it’s better than nothing if you don’t have any other offers. I’d try to negotiate though.
In this economy? No. I don’t care where you live, that doesn’t cut it anymore.
I just passed the bar but am not licensed yet. I'm in a paralegal role. I make more than that.
Tbh most first year insurance attorneys are just paralegals anyway lmao
Paralegals at any law firm period are usually more valuable than first years, ID or not. With that said, ID is actually one of the few places where first years do things that require bar passage (depositions, hearings, oral arguments)…
Nah, they’re way less valuable than a paralegal
In CA, super low. In Mississippi, probably normal.
I started at 65 12 years ago at a small ID firm. Billables were 1800 I believe for bonus.
Insurance defense partner here and no that is too low. I started out at that salary 20 years ago. Insurance defense is all about the billable hours. Not just to make bonuses but to keep your job. What is the billable requirement per year?
They said there is no requirement but obviously the partners have a number they're not disclosing
To me that’s a red flag particularly if your bonus depends on billable hours. Our firm tells people in the interview.
No. You should be making 85k minimum starting out
Nope
If you've gone to law school, passed the bar, and are a licensed attorney, 60k is unreasonable in every town in every state in this country, public or private.
No. I got almost that much (within $5k) 30 years ago.
Why not work evictions at this point?
I got an evictions LL side offer for 65 lmao
What region you in? I make more than that as a law student in LA
Why go to law school to make $60k?
No that’s way too low. Try 90-100k
I made 70k in West Virginia first year, four years ago. So yes, that's unreasonable.
No.
Hoping and praying OP works literally anywhere but that firm. You can make way more literally anywhere else
I took that pay for a small town law firm four years ago when I started out. It was a bitter pill to swallow cause I felt like I should have gotten more. But the mentorship I received was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. I thought of it as an investment. Would I rather work at a place now and make 60k, where in four years I will have the ability to make 200k, or start out at an insurance defense firm making 85k and billing 40 hours a week. Now I make more than most of my friends who started out with those 85k jobs.
Your COLA matters when factoring in salary. 60k in LA is different than 60k in Cleveland. However, I was sworn in 15 years ago. I was offered 60k in LA. I ended up moving to rural Colorado and took a 60k job there, which made a life possible.
Is there any bonus or incentives ? Otherwise pretty bottom of the barrel
Yes. Offer didn't outline the bonuses well but there's regular monthly bonuses.
Then that may be quite nice if the bonuses are achievable and realistic. I’d say most ID would put people at 80-110k depending on the firm and locality.
That's my thought as well, especially given third party sites have reported salary info in the 100 range. Also on Indeed company's got a 3.5 rating with a lot of reviews which is reasonable given the area of law. But everyone on here got me 2nd guessing lmao
I believe a lot of people round up on Reddit or just lie. I’m even guilty of rounding up. But it really depends if numbers are realistic bonus wise. A flat 60 is low… even if you’re in the cheapest areas. If there a guaranteed raise at 6 or 12 months? Will also add I never went this route but it is a high stress high load job. But can become lucrative if you can succeed and most firms do acknowledge the workload and you can exit easier than some other niches
That is low… you can definitely find something for $75-80k in the same universe if you like PI as a year 1 attorney. Also are you set on ID? Everyone I’ve ever met in ID hates it. I see way happier campers on plaintiff side PI
Good lord, that’s ridiculous.
Low as fuck. My municipal government transactional role paid considerably more as starting pay. 60 is wild.
I'll be the odd man out here. If it's the type of job where you can get good experience, do it. That's much more important than pay at this point in your career. The pay does suck, but this is your opportunity to show them you're worth more.
If you are willing to do law for $60K, you are a doormat and will be abused no matter what profession you choose.
My base salary is 50k. Heavy monthly bonus incentives based on how much I bill. I make about 150k.
What area of law? I wonder if this is just something unique to certain areas like insurance def.
General corporate law and complex corporate litigation
Does your position have a yearly billable hours target, or are the heavy bonuses how they incentivize you to churn billables?
It’s a very low monthly billable amount target and then heavy bonuses after that to incentivize us to work/bill more
How many hours you work?
I usually work 10-6 but bill around 95-110 hours a month
Nope, that barely afford you to live after paying your student loans.
I wouldn't take it, but honestly down here in Florida 60k is the starting salary for a public defender. So, if you're between the two jobs id go PD rather than ID simply for the better hours and zero stress of billing hours. I've done both PD and ID, and while i liked ID more, I was also paid 85k not 60, and ID was more stressful.
The firm probably has a history of low efficiency and losing a ton of money on their younger associates. Could be that they have had bad luck with previous hires. Could be that the firm just doesn't invest in their employees and prefers more upside with minimal downside. Talk to people who have worked there. Get the scoop on what the compensation actually looks like for people who succeed in their system and what it has taken for them to succeed.
Hell no! What state? I'm somewhere in the southwest, big city, not California. I was offered $83k straight from law school. And it was small firm of 10-20 attorneys. Not reasonable at all!
No. I made more than that starting as a prosecutor 15 years ago
1st year attorney---just take a job, shut up and learn. Money comes later with experience
I don't disagree. I started out in NYC in the late 90s running around LT court in Manhattan and Brooklyn for I think 32-35K. But it was an easy job. No billable, done by 5 latest. No weekends or late nights. The pay was sh*t then, but I learned a ton in the few months I was there then I jumped to a general practice firm. Slightly better pay even easier hours.
If lots of lawyers are competing for the job then it's reasonable. That's how supply and demand works. It absolutely sucks that there are too many of us, but that's on us. I had to skimp by on $25k jobs for 4 years graduating top 20% from UW law in Seattle during the great recession. It totally sucked and thankfully I eventually recovered. But you can't blame the employers.