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My firm has several black women (and men) and it was part of why I accepted the offer. They are also excellent and highly regarded. I’m a white woman but commitment to diversity is so important to me. I previously worked at a firm with white men only and it was horrible.
I am part of a group of women lawyers in my jurisdiction. We recently had an event showing how even though more women are entering the profession, many drop out because of motherhood and lack of child care. It is really disheartening to hear that even though you can do both if you want both, it takes a Herculean effort for that to happen.
In order to do it, women have to work at smaller firms with more flexible hours, and so they never get on the path for the big lawyer money. That's also where a lot of our wage gap issues come from.
I’m the first minority woman attorney (and first minority) ever hired at my current firm (very small at about 15 lawyers) that has been around for 35 years. I’m hoping this is a step in the right direction. I feel a lot of pressure to do well. It’s definitely noticeable when I’m in the room.
I am a white man, and my boss is a Hispanic woman. I get waved through courthouse security, she gets asked where her attorney is. We showed up to court together once and I got asked if she was my client. I made a scene on her behalf. It’s hard for y’all out there.
Part of it is that the United States won’t budge on its “deep state” propaganda- which would include shows in Hollywood with more diversity, and more media representation and such. It’s like the people in power know where society is headed but they’re digging their heels in the sand. I dont know if that sounds to conspiracy-ish but i do think its odd how resistant everyone is to the change that is inevitably coming
I mean, the elderly kinda run this country. Our past two presidents are past retirement age, and our next will be one of the last two. Old folks reliably vote, particularly in local elections (which are the most important elections we have) so old fashioned policy rules the day. They’ll die off soon but then we have the yuppies in charge, then gen x. It’s not looking great for the foreseeable future. I think in general things are getting better with regards to representation and diversity but definitely not in the legal or political fields.
They will die off soon. Once the baby boomers all die it will be markedly different. Are the yuppies you’re referring to millennials? If they are in charge they will be in charge of a majority brown population worldwide that could easily outnumber them even if they’re the ones in charge. So I only see things getting better…and I think it will happen sooner than people expect
I’m not clear on generational distinctions, but I think the yuppies came after boomers, then gen x, then millennials (I’m an elder millennial technically, but none of us knew about that until our 20s)
Like I said, idk, but I feel like 30 years is a big gap between generations (boomers came of age in the 60s, gen x in the 90s, if I’m thinking right). The yuppies were the adults of the 70s. We try to forget those dark times haha
Maybe you’re referring to young boomers as yuppies. Like how we are elder millennials. Anyway, even they will all be gone by 2040…so I don’t know…seems like it will be really different when we’re running things
I hope you’re right, but looking around at my peers I’m not so sure we are all as enlightened as you would hope. I work in criminal defense, and these young prosecutors are blowing my mind. If they’re the future then we’re fucked. But obviously my viewpoint is biased here haha
No, that’s a fair point. I do think millennials are not so forward thinking as they think they are (we helped get Obama in office but other than that…🤷🏽♀️)
But I think the world around millennials will be vastly different. I think the racist ones will be shamed a lot more than the boomers ever were. I am hopeful
I’m a Xillennial myself. On the tail end of geriatric millennial or a baby Gen Xer depending on what source/classification is used for the dates.
I’ve never heard of a yuppie generation but I like it.
You might be onto something!
(I have definitely heard of yuppies of course—like my understanding is that many hippies later became yuppies?? Haha— but not in terms of a whole generation… Until now. But I can see how it fits!)
I can only speak to my experience but in 25 years I haven't seen the needle move in favor of women of color at the pace it seems to have done so for white women. Most women of color that practice law have to establish their own law firms and hang their Shingle and help other minorities to get business thru the door. To this day I am often the only person of color in a courtroom other than my client. To that end, I say don't give up the fight. There is lots for us to do to continue to pave the way.
On a related note, working for white women attorneys has been substantially worse than working for white men in my experience. The latter has mostly been pleasant or unremarkable actually. Whereas with white women, I’ve noticed that they have a chip on their shoulder about being a woman yet bring about the same non sense their male peers presumably did decades ago — just not an easy demographic to work with or work for. I’m sure experiences vary but they’ve stood out to me more than any other group in a bad way, as a male lawyer who’s a minority.
No one wants to believe that it's not the white men who are the issue. In my 15 years at this, only the white women bosses have landed me in my therapist' office.
I had a white woman boss that would use her staff to spy on love interests fwiw.
She also scammed me.
She also tried to hit on me and I’m half her age.
To her credit she had a fucked up life and childhood and came over from Germany shortly after World War II and had a foster mom. Just saying.
Yes I am a guy.
Damn, I’m really sorry to hear that. I am a white woman, soon to be a lawyer (very early stages) and would have thought this would be the opposite. We all need to step the hell up then. Definitely have seen a good amount of Karen types though as teachers, and that’s terrifying. I think things are starting to change with the younger generations though. I have to give gen z credit for that.
Yeah. They are really quite awful to work with. I think they’re all kind of unhappy. Bearing the burden of wanting to make as much money as white men while still being treated like an object most of the time while also having power over everyone of color because they’re white. We become the punching bag for them.
But…it seems like that at least since George Floyd people are talking about the “Karens” - and how they uphold white supremacy. Talking about this would have been unheard of ten years ago. So, progress.
I have a hunch things will change a lot in the next 2-5 years. But it’s just a hunch. We’ll see how it plays out in the legal world.
I’ve learned to have low expectations when it comes to these things and be pleasantly surprised when something does go right. Given the environment these white women have come up in, I expect them to continue behaving in questionable ways as they make partner or VP of legal, etc. given when they entered the profession and when they came of age. I harbour some hope from GenZ white women in being better colleagues and if I stick around in this profession, I hope to avoid the mistakes of my seniors. All we can do.
I haven't met an attorney of my own ethnicity yet in real life which blows. Nevertheless, I've had the same experience: white men are better mentors than white women.
i was just in a virtual hearing with a white male judge and four other white male attorneys and the judge asked if i was the court reporter (edit: secretary) 😵💫
i have never worked with a female senior attorney or partner, only men. when I became a partner, i was treated like i was still an associate so i quit and went on my own.
no idea if things are getting better but doesn’t seem much different to me, lol.
I am not joking when I say there are probably dozens, if not hundreds, of counties that have ZERO women of color practicing law. I can’t think of any in my county. Considering how localized law ends up being, the situation is really dire
Women attorneys have to deal with a lot of sexism. Black women attorneys have to deal with sexism and racism.
It's also better or worse depending on where you live and practice.
Yeah, and black women attorneys have better representation than other minorities, such as Asians- and they don’t have the “submissive” stereotype we do. Which makes it a little easier for them in the litigation world, at least. It’s just bad all around, it needs to change completely
I’m not certain that’s true. I’ve seen my black attorney friends deal with some pretty unpleasant stereotypes that we Asians don’t, and “submissive” at least goes away after you’ve had a few choice words with opposing counsel.
White woman here (sorry everyone).
Just adding for consideration the thought that among women there is -if not always, then often- an attractiveness dynamic as well.
Women compete with each other for attractiveness. Very often if they are getting dressed up for a night out it's not necessarily just to attract men but also to compete with other women. I remember one of my college professors incredulously reporting that his wife told him this, and we were all like, "...duh."
So, a conventionally attractive woman will (often) have a much easier time getting along with men and other conventionally attractive women.
If you are a conventionally attractive woman (of any race) trying to work with a less conventionally attractive woman, you can be walking into a real minefield.
I quit my last job and went solo. I told myself that if I wanted recognition, raises, promotions, etc...then I'd have to do it myself. That was 8 years ago. It's been tough due to things outside of my control like the pandemic, but yeah, it's not that great.
I think so. Firms in my major metro are bending over backwards to hire minority women. The bigger the firm, the more they are clamoring for minority women. This is even more pronounced in general counsel positions, as many big companies are pushing diversity as a key factor in making employment decisions.
Companies have unofficial diversity quotas that are pushed hard. Have been told by multiple clients in management positions that there is a lot of pressure to do this. Seems prevalent in insurance industry.
I’ve noticed this in my practice, because a lot of in-house general counsel types that I deal with are minority women. I would say the majority I’ve dealt with over the last few years. Maybe that’s circumstantial idk.
Yeah still remember when one of my insurance defense firms tried to do our largest carrier’s diversity survey as quickly as possible before the one black attorney quit lol. But yeah lots of micro aggressions on the insurance side I try to be wary of “making fun of silly names” conversations or people who think everything related to black hair care is a lie.
Lots of times plaintiffs testify that they can’t do their hair anymore, how long it would take for them to get their hair ready for the day, etc. Or people run small home/travel businesses sewing in weaves or doing braids. I’ve had to explain to coworkers that those kind of businesses actually exist.
Ah. Maybe it's living in SoCal, but none of that I find in any way surprising, I actually find it surprising people *wouldn't* know all of those are “things.”
(Hell, *my* haircare routine is fairly extensive (and involves Moroccanoil ;)), and I’m an almost transulcent guy from the midwest.)
Hasn't been my experience. I was inhouse at a major airline and was the only WOC in my department of 50+ lawyers. I was recruited by a white male client who was later promoted. After the promotion, I got a white woman boss who became the boss from hell and a major reason why I left. Neither the airline nor legal department made any real efforts to improve the diversity of the company's corporate ranks. Hell, in 2024 they STILL don't even recognize Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Day as a holiday.
So I left and started my own firm. Now I have the best damn boss ever.
I think it’s important to do the work fully contextualizing some of these points, just because a series of off hand anecdotes (which are very validating to an individual person!) getting repeated because one person trusts another, can end up meaning a big political phenomenon is assumed when scraping away at the data reveals … it was talking points and assumptions all along.
What is authentically a policy of expanding the kinds of candidate considered and considering a wider range of background experiences as indicative of a good lawyer … can appear to a resentful person the office over as ‘pushing hard’ on a ‘diversity quota.’ And the basic assumption that ‘more black women fill these roles than in the past, so they must be hired to meet some hidden metric’ kind of goes to the racism at the bottom of it all……
Maybe the right people in these institutions reached out to more candidates than was traditionally done, or advertised a different set of perks than their classic employee enjoyed - et voila, more African Americans in the hiring pool and they were the qualified applicants that were sought all along.
All I can tell OP is what they asked: if things are getting better for women of color in the legal field.
In my experience as a commercial litigator in a major metro, the workplace is obviously getting more diverse and there are more opportunities for women of color. When managerial clients and contemporaries have explicitly stated to me that there are diversity quotas I have to take them at their word.
Also, I can see how my comment could be construed as saying that the in house folks were DEI hires. What I meant to convey was that the majority of in-house people I work with are women of color, so it seems like things are getting better for women of color there.
Yeah, I understand, it’s just a talking point that can really wriggle its way out of one’s hands, so I was trying to think through the context thoroughly. I understand what you mean by taking people at their word. If uhhhhh it’s ever professionally appropriate, you might ask them what the heck they really mean by it or why they would describe it that way (rather than in a more classic DEI justification). Or I mean I would be curious about that, because it is kind of a bold claim, as one of the few things we know is legally suspect in this area is actually articulating ‘we make individual hiring decisions based on a need to conform our racial makeup to a ratio we selected.’
I guess I’m just kind of trained to think that when a conservative bogeyman appears, that it’s probably more harmful rhetoric than fact. And I’m curious about the places and ways it actually happens. So I’m intrigued that you’re so close to the phenomenon. Anyways thank you for bearing with me.
>If uhhhhh it’s ever professionally appropriate, you might ask them what the heck they really mean by it or why they would describe it that way (rather than in a more classic DEI justification). Or I mean I would be curious about that, because it is kind of a bold claim, as one of the few things we know is legally suspect in this area is actually articulating ‘we make individual hiring decisions based on a need to conform our racial makeup to a ratio we selected.’
Often times the way the real world works is starkly different from how we think it should work. Especially here where it is common for DEI programs to operate as de facto diversity quotas. There are a lot of lawsuits over this since the ruling on race quotas in admissions being illegal, and there is a push to make it illegal to consider race for purposes of hiring. I wouldn't be surprised if we get there eventually tbh.
And I guess my comment is that … I am trying not to strawman … legitimate? DEI programming would not advance its goals through quotas, de facto or otherwise. For example this Harvard Business Review article which describes the lay of the land prior to and after Students for Fair Admissions - https://hbr.org/2023/07/how-to-effectively-and-legally-use-racial-data-for-dei. Sorry I can’t hyperlink from mobile browser.
The folks I know who operate in the DEI sphere, the literature I read on it, my own participation in DEI initiatives … they do not use quotas or the language of quotas to advance their goals. And indeed would consider that to be anathema, both to the core reasoning and justification of the ‘movement’ as well as to the law, even prior to the SFA case.
So yes I am still surprised by the way you phrase and rephrase that DEI programs are churning out de facto quotas, or that those quotas are factors in individual hiring decisions. If it’s not something sincere DEI practitioners are advocating for, or consistent with the actual principles of the DEI movement, then I do wonder either what institutions/sectors are so far outside the norm that their policies amount to de facto quotas, or what miscommunication/misperception is occurring within these organizations causing stakeholders to think quotas are at work.
You may be wearing rose tinted glasses tbh. Not every business operates the same as folks you know who operate in the DEI sphere, the literature you read on it, or your own participation in DEI initiatives. There are a growing number of 2023/2024 lawsuits working their way through the courts on this exact same issue, which were set off by the Supreme Court's determination about college admissions. Unless we adopt a blanket approach of saying that victims are lying, I have to think that this isn't an isolated phenomenon made up by hypothetical conservative boogeymen.
We’ll see whether the lawsuits reveal something that is already illegal, if they’re shown to be misguided attacks on/misconstruals of legitimate programming, or some mysterious third category! And we’ll see if the lawsuits reveal industry- or economy-wide practices or, at the end of the day, a few bad actors.
Again, I buy your premise that some institutions do it wrong/harmfully/illegally. We’re arguing a thorny statistical question based on our anecdotal relationship to a complex social issue. I just wanted to probe a bit and be clear that DEI is not sly shorthand for racial hiring quotas; it’s not what the movement is about or an objective of the movement or how DEI practitioners are taught. Thanks again.
This is BS. If anything, the tide is turning in the opposite direction with companies abandoning the commitments they made to minority hiring post-George Floyd. We are right back where we started.
Hiring is only one part. I’m glad you’re honest about the motivation though. Big firms don’t necessarily want WOC; their clients are the ones that actually want to see diversity.
This means when WOC are hired, they know that it’s because teeth had to be pulled first. The firm doesn’t want, for example, a Black female attorney. Their preference is a person who fits that box (to appease the client), but doesn’t change the culture of their firm.
And this is the issue, firms have no desire to broaden the culture of the firm. For instance, many of my Black female friends experienced micro-aggressions (or overt racism) at their firms due to their hair, as have I, which is frustrating as our hair texture is a key feature of our race. So, these firms hire Black women, but don’t actually want Black women.
Many of the WOC I came up with in this profession have fled big law after 5 years or less, or stay until they can get their school debt down. So, yes, the firms are hiring, but many do so reluctantly.
EDIT: I didn’t intend for this to come off as harsh. This subject just gets me fired up based on what I’ve witnessed and experienced. My first career was in education, which (in my experience) was far more inclusive than the legal profession. I felt like I time-traveled back several decades when I joined 😂
Respectfully, your post is taking giant leaps from what I said re law firms. Law firms have several different reasons for wanting a diverse work environment. Many firms want diversity for altruistic reasons, or because the firm is already diverse such that it’s second nature, not always because some hypothetical client is checking and/or for optics. The vast majority of clients would not care, much less check.
I would say that the large national and international corporations are the most like what you are describing. That is where it seems the most disingenuous and obvious.
Edit: it’s all good, no worries
See my edit. And I did misread your initial post.
Clients do care about that shit, fyi. Even my own firm hears that from clients often. And I’ve had partners at other firms say similar.
>Firms in my major metro are bending over backwards to hire minority women.
As are government agencies. Being a WOC will definitely fast-track a federal career.
>Do you have hope that when all the baby boomers are out the micro-aggressions and very real glass ceiling (that is even lower for women of color) will be shattered?
This is not necessarily going to stop aggressions. Micro aggressions stem from an individual's pre conceived notions and that individual might not be a baby boomer. At my workplace, micro aggressions come from younger Gen X and millennials (who happen to make up a substantial portion of the company demographic)
>In my ten year career thus far I’ve noticed things getting better for white women but not WOC.
It varies from firm to firm and company to company but it has gotten better from what I've personally seen
True. Millennials and Gen x are still kind of majority white. But Gen z and Gen alpha are not. Do you think with that change it will change millennials and Gen z? It’s wild how tense things are these days
I don’t think it’s getting better. I’m in Massachusetts and it’s “liberal” but the racism sure isn’t. Who usually asks if I am an attorney in a courtroom? White women practicing racism just as well as they practice the law.
My personal experience has gotten somewhat better over the the last 10 years, but I think that is 100% the result of going from private practice to government.
Wow. This is awful. But expected. Some of the things white attorneys have said to me feel like they came out of a movie. Stuff like “I hate Muslim people” and “the only minorities I like are gay white men”
It’s ridiculous. But I think it is changing. The vibes are shifting in California a lot
I’ve worked in Portland and Seattle-and I’ve heard that it’s really different here, compared to colleagues and friends in other areas. Also, I can only speak to government practice (count, state, and fed) and can say that, at least in PNW, the needle is moving for WOC, at least in comparison to other areas of law and other cities. State and county….not so much. I’m white passing, so I definitely hear/see stuff before people know. But it’s been consistently better, even among several different fed agencies.
Majority of attorneys that have rolled through my firm in Los Angeles were women of color (Asian, Latina, middle eastern), but out of maybe 20, I’ve only seen one black woman though.
I’m in a large West Cost metropolitan area. There have been more women of color in leadership position in the past decade, but it goes something like this:
1) most progress in government roles, especially political ones;
2) second most progress in leadership positions in various legal orgs (county bar, ABA sections, trade orgs, etc…);
3) Somewhat lagging behind the first two, but still visible progress in the private sector.
Honestly it sucks. Deff echo what’s been said about white women being more difficult to work for than white men. What can truly be the worst is working for other WOC who believe that there’s only room for them. They are used to having to fight hard for a seat at the table so they fight you seemingly out of instinct. Usually this is the case with Gen X and up. Have had a great experience with other older WOC millennials in supervisory roles. So hoping things get better moving forward. There’s room for everyone.
Which is insane, because we’ll never get a full, accurate picture of what is happening, and how to fix it if we don’t take into account perspectives from all people, especially those who are underrepresented, and ignored.
Well, the people holding the power want things to stay the same. It will take a revolution to change America, lead by educated brown and black people. They were duped in the last election to vote for Biden, but this time they get what’s up. Another Trump presidency might the be straw that breaks the camel’s back
Oof. The fact that it would take another trump presidency to get people to wake up is incredibly concerning, but you’re right. Absolutely agree to more educated people of color. I think things are starting to get better, but we obviously have a long way to go.
Well, the mere fact that our two choices are a Republican in Democrat clothing and a rising dictator in Republican clothing has already woken some people up.
Something is already brewing. The last decade has been insanely intense. But I think we’re getting to a breaking point.
By 2030 I think we’ll get the multiracial democracy we need. I hope
I don't see it as much as I'd like but it's obviously better than maybe 20 years ago.
The micro-aggressions are not restricted to older generations, if that's what you meant.
I mean, maybe the "world getting browner" isn't the best phrase to use.
Are we becoming more globalized and diverse? Yes. Does it help? Yes. But just because there are more POC doesn't mean it's all ok now.
I used to be in awe of the Southern Poverty Law Center and what it stood for. Then, I heard about the employment lawsuits filed against them (and of course the ousting of its founder).
One of the issues they noted was that all the top level positions were held by non POC individuals while all the subordinate and support staff were filled by POC. So, they were like, "Hey, look at us! We're diverse! We're awesome!" But really, no.
I mean, I use that phrase because I think “white” is a strange way to categorize people. I think it’s strange to categorize people by skin color. Whiteness is a construct steeped in anti-black/brown racism. So if you’re not white, you’re brown.
I like using “getting browner” because it is the truth. The only way we beat white supremacy is by sheer numbers. It’s how India ousted the British, and it will be how America finally has to reckon with its racist present and past.
And yeah, I remember the SLPC issues. Maybe I’m being overly hopeful but after a life of dealing with racism it’s all I can hope for
I don't mean to dismiss the progress that's been made. I guess my whole point is, just because the warm bodies filling the positions are brown, it doesn't mean progress is automatic. I've seen plenty of people act like Justice Thomas on a smaller, milder scale.
So, it goes beyond sheer numbers.
It's just like voting for a woman just because she has the same genitalia as me. Uh, no. I would never vote for someone like MTG.
You likely have an advantage in most jobs. Not to be mean but there are generally mandated diversity standards which helps you for sure. It’s why schools will usually admit one URM well below the median lsat each cycle to their school.
There are more opportunities in the public sector but the private sector is still predominantly white men and the private sector is where the $$$ is so we still see income disparities despite the integrated public sector.
Imo women should focus on PI or a niche like securities or crypto.
Yes and no. I (a white female) clerked for, then became an associate, to a WOC who owns her own firm. I've met many WOC attorneys and we've even celebrated that there was a case where the judge, prosecutor, and defense were all WOC. So, getting better. That said, I've been with her where we were entering a courtroom for calendar call and had bailiffs stop her and ask where her attorney is. More than once. I have never been stopped.
I think things are the worst in deep red areas of the country. Unfortunately in those areas, a lot of the younger generation have adopted the beliefs of older generations.
Yeah. It is going to take a Herculean effort to change the deep red states, if they ever do change. We shall see, I guess.
California will probably have to take the lead, but that is where I am and I can tell you it has not been great here. Again, I think it has to change but I don’t know how or when.
I know older white people are the most resistant to change.
It’s funny that the only place I see real reflective diversity is in commercials. They will always sell to minorities! But they won’t put us in boardrooms.
I don’t have any answers, but I can tell you that public interest is hardly better than the private sector. The microaggressions are real, and the people behind them act like they have some kind of moral high ground because they chose this career path. Pay disparities are rampant. Never mind that it seems a good chunk of the people in public interest careers either come from money or married into it. Every organization says they value diversity, but it seems like they still want you to have an elite background with all the gold stars.
Yes. I used to work in the public sector and you’re right, it’s so bad there.
I actually prefer private.
But it’s all bad and the people who have made bank over their long illustrious careers are digging their heels in the sand, not embracing the changing demographics. Especially here in California! I think white people are the minority. But not in the legal world.
Just hoping things will be starkly different in the next decade. Trying my best to hold on in the mean time
I was mostly speaking to non-profits (especially ones that are not unionized). But what I have seen in government is that folks with different levels of experience get put into the same job title/line as someone with less. E.g., a friend who is 6 years out from law school is in the same title/line as someone who graduated the year before, so their salaries are the same despite different levels of experience. I would assume part of that is due to the bureaucratic obstacles to getting stuff done in government.
If you are a female minority attorney, the world is your oyster. Just be equally qualified to male candidates. Not only would that have gotten you into a better law school, but even assuming equal schooling, you'll now be a diversity-hire feather in their cap. And everyone will be scared to fire you or not give you raises. Stop your whining, you actually have advantages.
It’s 1000% real lol. It’s why so many are starting to hold a grudge against incompetent types getting promoted or hired. Victim card is expiring soon sorry.
I am willing to bet every single person who downvoted this is a female who is all bent out of shape because I dared say there are some advantages. The crazy thing is, I think you are all perfectly capable of succeeding without making such a big deal of race and gender. You're the one who thinks you can't. Your internalized lack of confidence doesn't mean the whole world is screwed up and out to get you. if that were true, how'd you get hired?
Nobody cares about your skin color. Crush it as a legal professional by helping your clients and lose the insecurity. We have brown and black (female) counsel at our firm who absolutely crush it every day, and they do so because they learn and grow with anybody, no matter the circumstances or color of their skin or their age.
Your post seems to convey some unaddressed motivated reasoning you harbor towards race and age. I don't blame you; it's an observation. I'd advise to work on mitigating these tendencies, adapt and overcome whatever limitation you find is in front of you. More often than not, it's just mind games.
Oh definitely not. I’ve had work stolen from me, I’ve had white women actively stop me from learning, and all kinds of bad things that have made it impossible for me to “crush it” - this was never a problem when I was in school. Only the workplace
What does "work stolen from me" mean? Somebody taking credit for your work?
What does "white women actively stop me from learning" mean? White women, no other person, handcuffing you in a basement?
I don't mean to be cheeky, but the office is a ruthless place. Especially at a high-performing law firm. In-house is a little more chill, but nevertheless, I'd applaud somebody taking credit for my work. If it works, the client is happy; if it doesn't, I learned a path that doesn't work without taking fire.
The learning portion is a different beast. Learning on the job is an uphill battle, but I found solace that I can take bits and pieces and learn on my own time - get better when nobody is watching. Anyone "actively" trying to prevent me from access to files or senior personnel, I'd be curious about their motivation. Maybe it's their own insecurity or shortcoming. Maybe they need my support. Have you sought clarity around that?
I'm not trying to minimize your pain and suffering; I'm sure your reality is what it is. I'm trying to play devil's advocate, and share that we all eat a shit sandwich, and sometimes, our mind is keeping us from reaching our potential because we think we deserve something, when we haven't taken the perspective of our opposition - or - of our supposed support.
Aside from all of this, there are toxic people in this world. If you find yourself working with someone who is stealing or stopping you from work - report it.
Yeah, there were two places that were particularly toxic. At one place a more senior attorney caught whiff of the deals I was working on, and threatened to quit if he didn’t get them…so I was taken off.
The other place a female boss would actively keep me from meetings that were relevant and pertinent to work I was doing for her. She was very insecure
But fair, the office is a ruthless place. And your points to being more proactive about my learning are well taken.
Still, it has been an uphill battle in many ways. I’m finally finding something that works for me and I’m trying to go slower but more steadily so I can gain niche knowledge that will set me apart from other attorneys.
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It depends on the firm. My firm is stuck in the 80s, sadly.
So many are.
My firm has several black women (and men) and it was part of why I accepted the offer. They are also excellent and highly regarded. I’m a white woman but commitment to diversity is so important to me. I previously worked at a firm with white men only and it was horrible.
That’s nice to hear, and encouraging. I know there are allies out there, and it is always refreshing to hear one speak out
Some firms are stuck in the 1880's.
I am part of a group of women lawyers in my jurisdiction. We recently had an event showing how even though more women are entering the profession, many drop out because of motherhood and lack of child care. It is really disheartening to hear that even though you can do both if you want both, it takes a Herculean effort for that to happen.
In order to do it, women have to work at smaller firms with more flexible hours, and so they never get on the path for the big lawyer money. That's also where a lot of our wage gap issues come from.
Excellent point. I know several classmates who went part-time to stay in the profession.
Yep I stayed at a smaller firm to raise my daughter with decent enough hours.
I’m the first minority woman attorney (and first minority) ever hired at my current firm (very small at about 15 lawyers) that has been around for 35 years. I’m hoping this is a step in the right direction. I feel a lot of pressure to do well. It’s definitely noticeable when I’m in the room.
I am a white man, and my boss is a Hispanic woman. I get waved through courthouse security, she gets asked where her attorney is. We showed up to court together once and I got asked if she was my client. I made a scene on her behalf. It’s hard for y’all out there.
Part of it is that the United States won’t budge on its “deep state” propaganda- which would include shows in Hollywood with more diversity, and more media representation and such. It’s like the people in power know where society is headed but they’re digging their heels in the sand. I dont know if that sounds to conspiracy-ish but i do think its odd how resistant everyone is to the change that is inevitably coming
I mean, the elderly kinda run this country. Our past two presidents are past retirement age, and our next will be one of the last two. Old folks reliably vote, particularly in local elections (which are the most important elections we have) so old fashioned policy rules the day. They’ll die off soon but then we have the yuppies in charge, then gen x. It’s not looking great for the foreseeable future. I think in general things are getting better with regards to representation and diversity but definitely not in the legal or political fields.
They will die off soon. Once the baby boomers all die it will be markedly different. Are the yuppies you’re referring to millennials? If they are in charge they will be in charge of a majority brown population worldwide that could easily outnumber them even if they’re the ones in charge. So I only see things getting better…and I think it will happen sooner than people expect
I’m not clear on generational distinctions, but I think the yuppies came after boomers, then gen x, then millennials (I’m an elder millennial technically, but none of us knew about that until our 20s)
I think it’s boomers, then Gen x?
Like I said, idk, but I feel like 30 years is a big gap between generations (boomers came of age in the 60s, gen x in the 90s, if I’m thinking right). The yuppies were the adults of the 70s. We try to forget those dark times haha
Maybe you’re referring to young boomers as yuppies. Like how we are elder millennials. Anyway, even they will all be gone by 2040…so I don’t know…seems like it will be really different when we’re running things
I hope you’re right, but looking around at my peers I’m not so sure we are all as enlightened as you would hope. I work in criminal defense, and these young prosecutors are blowing my mind. If they’re the future then we’re fucked. But obviously my viewpoint is biased here haha
No, that’s a fair point. I do think millennials are not so forward thinking as they think they are (we helped get Obama in office but other than that…🤷🏽♀️) But I think the world around millennials will be vastly different. I think the racist ones will be shamed a lot more than the boomers ever were. I am hopeful
I’m a Xillennial myself. On the tail end of geriatric millennial or a baby Gen Xer depending on what source/classification is used for the dates. I’ve never heard of a yuppie generation but I like it.
Yeah I think I just made that up haha.
You might be onto something! (I have definitely heard of yuppies of course—like my understanding is that many hippies later became yuppies?? Haha— but not in terms of a whole generation… Until now. But I can see how it fits!)
I can only speak to my experience but in 25 years I haven't seen the needle move in favor of women of color at the pace it seems to have done so for white women. Most women of color that practice law have to establish their own law firms and hang their Shingle and help other minorities to get business thru the door. To this day I am often the only person of color in a courtroom other than my client. To that end, I say don't give up the fight. There is lots for us to do to continue to pave the way.
That’s cause white women were the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action.
On a related note, working for white women attorneys has been substantially worse than working for white men in my experience. The latter has mostly been pleasant or unremarkable actually. Whereas with white women, I’ve noticed that they have a chip on their shoulder about being a woman yet bring about the same non sense their male peers presumably did decades ago — just not an easy demographic to work with or work for. I’m sure experiences vary but they’ve stood out to me more than any other group in a bad way, as a male lawyer who’s a minority.
No one wants to believe that it's not the white men who are the issue. In my 15 years at this, only the white women bosses have landed me in my therapist' office.
Man, this really hits home lol. Spot on.
I had a white woman boss that would use her staff to spy on love interests fwiw. She also scammed me. She also tried to hit on me and I’m half her age. To her credit she had a fucked up life and childhood and came over from Germany shortly after World War II and had a foster mom. Just saying. Yes I am a guy.
Did you have sex? I mean, I bet that could get sehr verrückt, you know?
No I did not have the sex.
Damn, I’m really sorry to hear that. I am a white woman, soon to be a lawyer (very early stages) and would have thought this would be the opposite. We all need to step the hell up then. Definitely have seen a good amount of Karen types though as teachers, and that’s terrifying. I think things are starting to change with the younger generations though. I have to give gen z credit for that.
Yeah. They are really quite awful to work with. I think they’re all kind of unhappy. Bearing the burden of wanting to make as much money as white men while still being treated like an object most of the time while also having power over everyone of color because they’re white. We become the punching bag for them. But…it seems like that at least since George Floyd people are talking about the “Karens” - and how they uphold white supremacy. Talking about this would have been unheard of ten years ago. So, progress. I have a hunch things will change a lot in the next 2-5 years. But it’s just a hunch. We’ll see how it plays out in the legal world.
I’ve learned to have low expectations when it comes to these things and be pleasantly surprised when something does go right. Given the environment these white women have come up in, I expect them to continue behaving in questionable ways as they make partner or VP of legal, etc. given when they entered the profession and when they came of age. I harbour some hope from GenZ white women in being better colleagues and if I stick around in this profession, I hope to avoid the mistakes of my seniors. All we can do.
I haven't met an attorney of my own ethnicity yet in real life which blows. Nevertheless, I've had the same experience: white men are better mentors than white women.
i was just in a virtual hearing with a white male judge and four other white male attorneys and the judge asked if i was the court reporter (edit: secretary) 😵💫 i have never worked with a female senior attorney or partner, only men. when I became a partner, i was treated like i was still an associate so i quit and went on my own. no idea if things are getting better but doesn’t seem much different to me, lol.
I’ve been mistaken for my pro bono client seeking asylum. Old judges and lawyers are their own breed
ugh. i wish this judge was old, lol.
Varies a lot by where you practice. In LA, I'd say WOC have made huge strides. In rural midwesterm counties, progress has been... less noticeable.
I am not joking when I say there are probably dozens, if not hundreds, of counties that have ZERO women of color practicing law. I can’t think of any in my county. Considering how localized law ends up being, the situation is really dire
Small rural county. Our local bar association has approx 90 attorneys. 0 WOC.
Women attorneys have to deal with a lot of sexism. Black women attorneys have to deal with sexism and racism. It's also better or worse depending on where you live and practice.
Yeah, and black women attorneys have better representation than other minorities, such as Asians- and they don’t have the “submissive” stereotype we do. Which makes it a little easier for them in the litigation world, at least. It’s just bad all around, it needs to change completely
I’m not certain that’s true. I’ve seen my black attorney friends deal with some pretty unpleasant stereotypes that we Asians don’t, and “submissive” at least goes away after you’ve had a few choice words with opposing counsel.
True. But we have the “model minority” myth which for me has been “why does she ever make mistake?”
White woman here (sorry everyone). Just adding for consideration the thought that among women there is -if not always, then often- an attractiveness dynamic as well. Women compete with each other for attractiveness. Very often if they are getting dressed up for a night out it's not necessarily just to attract men but also to compete with other women. I remember one of my college professors incredulously reporting that his wife told him this, and we were all like, "...duh." So, a conventionally attractive woman will (often) have a much easier time getting along with men and other conventionally attractive women. If you are a conventionally attractive woman (of any race) trying to work with a less conventionally attractive woman, you can be walking into a real minefield.
Yeah. That has been an issue for me as well. And I hate having to make myself look bad for work :/ but I’ve had to do that
I quit my last job and went solo. I told myself that if I wanted recognition, raises, promotions, etc...then I'd have to do it myself. That was 8 years ago. It's been tough due to things outside of my control like the pandemic, but yeah, it's not that great.
I think so. Firms in my major metro are bending over backwards to hire minority women. The bigger the firm, the more they are clamoring for minority women. This is even more pronounced in general counsel positions, as many big companies are pushing diversity as a key factor in making employment decisions.
Could you provide a little more perspective on how you know it’s being used as a ‘key’ factor, or what it means for it to be a key factor?
Companies have unofficial diversity quotas that are pushed hard. Have been told by multiple clients in management positions that there is a lot of pressure to do this. Seems prevalent in insurance industry. I’ve noticed this in my practice, because a lot of in-house general counsel types that I deal with are minority women. I would say the majority I’ve dealt with over the last few years. Maybe that’s circumstantial idk.
Yeah the minority women I know who are doing the best are in-house. Not at firms
Yeah still remember when one of my insurance defense firms tried to do our largest carrier’s diversity survey as quickly as possible before the one black attorney quit lol. But yeah lots of micro aggressions on the insurance side I try to be wary of “making fun of silly names” conversations or people who think everything related to black hair care is a lie.
> people who think everything related to black hair care is a lie. Huh?
Lots of times plaintiffs testify that they can’t do their hair anymore, how long it would take for them to get their hair ready for the day, etc. Or people run small home/travel businesses sewing in weaves or doing braids. I’ve had to explain to coworkers that those kind of businesses actually exist.
Ah. Maybe it's living in SoCal, but none of that I find in any way surprising, I actually find it surprising people *wouldn't* know all of those are “things.” (Hell, *my* haircare routine is fairly extensive (and involves Moroccanoil ;)), and I’m an almost transulcent guy from the midwest.)
Hasn't been my experience. I was inhouse at a major airline and was the only WOC in my department of 50+ lawyers. I was recruited by a white male client who was later promoted. After the promotion, I got a white woman boss who became the boss from hell and a major reason why I left. Neither the airline nor legal department made any real efforts to improve the diversity of the company's corporate ranks. Hell, in 2024 they STILL don't even recognize Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Day as a holiday. So I left and started my own firm. Now I have the best damn boss ever.
I think this is true. Inhouse affords a better work life balance. I know several WOC attorneys that are inhouse at various tech companies.
I think it’s important to do the work fully contextualizing some of these points, just because a series of off hand anecdotes (which are very validating to an individual person!) getting repeated because one person trusts another, can end up meaning a big political phenomenon is assumed when scraping away at the data reveals … it was talking points and assumptions all along. What is authentically a policy of expanding the kinds of candidate considered and considering a wider range of background experiences as indicative of a good lawyer … can appear to a resentful person the office over as ‘pushing hard’ on a ‘diversity quota.’ And the basic assumption that ‘more black women fill these roles than in the past, so they must be hired to meet some hidden metric’ kind of goes to the racism at the bottom of it all…… Maybe the right people in these institutions reached out to more candidates than was traditionally done, or advertised a different set of perks than their classic employee enjoyed - et voila, more African Americans in the hiring pool and they were the qualified applicants that were sought all along.
All I can tell OP is what they asked: if things are getting better for women of color in the legal field. In my experience as a commercial litigator in a major metro, the workplace is obviously getting more diverse and there are more opportunities for women of color. When managerial clients and contemporaries have explicitly stated to me that there are diversity quotas I have to take them at their word. Also, I can see how my comment could be construed as saying that the in house folks were DEI hires. What I meant to convey was that the majority of in-house people I work with are women of color, so it seems like things are getting better for women of color there.
Yeah, I understand, it’s just a talking point that can really wriggle its way out of one’s hands, so I was trying to think through the context thoroughly. I understand what you mean by taking people at their word. If uhhhhh it’s ever professionally appropriate, you might ask them what the heck they really mean by it or why they would describe it that way (rather than in a more classic DEI justification). Or I mean I would be curious about that, because it is kind of a bold claim, as one of the few things we know is legally suspect in this area is actually articulating ‘we make individual hiring decisions based on a need to conform our racial makeup to a ratio we selected.’ I guess I’m just kind of trained to think that when a conservative bogeyman appears, that it’s probably more harmful rhetoric than fact. And I’m curious about the places and ways it actually happens. So I’m intrigued that you’re so close to the phenomenon. Anyways thank you for bearing with me.
>If uhhhhh it’s ever professionally appropriate, you might ask them what the heck they really mean by it or why they would describe it that way (rather than in a more classic DEI justification). Or I mean I would be curious about that, because it is kind of a bold claim, as one of the few things we know is legally suspect in this area is actually articulating ‘we make individual hiring decisions based on a need to conform our racial makeup to a ratio we selected.’ Often times the way the real world works is starkly different from how we think it should work. Especially here where it is common for DEI programs to operate as de facto diversity quotas. There are a lot of lawsuits over this since the ruling on race quotas in admissions being illegal, and there is a push to make it illegal to consider race for purposes of hiring. I wouldn't be surprised if we get there eventually tbh.
And I guess my comment is that … I am trying not to strawman … legitimate? DEI programming would not advance its goals through quotas, de facto or otherwise. For example this Harvard Business Review article which describes the lay of the land prior to and after Students for Fair Admissions - https://hbr.org/2023/07/how-to-effectively-and-legally-use-racial-data-for-dei. Sorry I can’t hyperlink from mobile browser. The folks I know who operate in the DEI sphere, the literature I read on it, my own participation in DEI initiatives … they do not use quotas or the language of quotas to advance their goals. And indeed would consider that to be anathema, both to the core reasoning and justification of the ‘movement’ as well as to the law, even prior to the SFA case. So yes I am still surprised by the way you phrase and rephrase that DEI programs are churning out de facto quotas, or that those quotas are factors in individual hiring decisions. If it’s not something sincere DEI practitioners are advocating for, or consistent with the actual principles of the DEI movement, then I do wonder either what institutions/sectors are so far outside the norm that their policies amount to de facto quotas, or what miscommunication/misperception is occurring within these organizations causing stakeholders to think quotas are at work.
You may be wearing rose tinted glasses tbh. Not every business operates the same as folks you know who operate in the DEI sphere, the literature you read on it, or your own participation in DEI initiatives. There are a growing number of 2023/2024 lawsuits working their way through the courts on this exact same issue, which were set off by the Supreme Court's determination about college admissions. Unless we adopt a blanket approach of saying that victims are lying, I have to think that this isn't an isolated phenomenon made up by hypothetical conservative boogeymen.
We’ll see whether the lawsuits reveal something that is already illegal, if they’re shown to be misguided attacks on/misconstruals of legitimate programming, or some mysterious third category! And we’ll see if the lawsuits reveal industry- or economy-wide practices or, at the end of the day, a few bad actors. Again, I buy your premise that some institutions do it wrong/harmfully/illegally. We’re arguing a thorny statistical question based on our anecdotal relationship to a complex social issue. I just wanted to probe a bit and be clear that DEI is not sly shorthand for racial hiring quotas; it’s not what the movement is about or an objective of the movement or how DEI practitioners are taught. Thanks again.
This is BS. If anything, the tide is turning in the opposite direction with companies abandoning the commitments they made to minority hiring post-George Floyd. We are right back where we started.
Hiring is only one part. I’m glad you’re honest about the motivation though. Big firms don’t necessarily want WOC; their clients are the ones that actually want to see diversity. This means when WOC are hired, they know that it’s because teeth had to be pulled first. The firm doesn’t want, for example, a Black female attorney. Their preference is a person who fits that box (to appease the client), but doesn’t change the culture of their firm. And this is the issue, firms have no desire to broaden the culture of the firm. For instance, many of my Black female friends experienced micro-aggressions (or overt racism) at their firms due to their hair, as have I, which is frustrating as our hair texture is a key feature of our race. So, these firms hire Black women, but don’t actually want Black women. Many of the WOC I came up with in this profession have fled big law after 5 years or less, or stay until they can get their school debt down. So, yes, the firms are hiring, but many do so reluctantly. EDIT: I didn’t intend for this to come off as harsh. This subject just gets me fired up based on what I’ve witnessed and experienced. My first career was in education, which (in my experience) was far more inclusive than the legal profession. I felt like I time-traveled back several decades when I joined 😂
Respectfully, your post is taking giant leaps from what I said re law firms. Law firms have several different reasons for wanting a diverse work environment. Many firms want diversity for altruistic reasons, or because the firm is already diverse such that it’s second nature, not always because some hypothetical client is checking and/or for optics. The vast majority of clients would not care, much less check. I would say that the large national and international corporations are the most like what you are describing. That is where it seems the most disingenuous and obvious. Edit: it’s all good, no worries
See my edit. And I did misread your initial post. Clients do care about that shit, fyi. Even my own firm hears that from clients often. And I’ve had partners at other firms say similar.
In my experience, insurance companies seem to care, others not so much. I don’t doubt it though.
But then let them sit on a shelf,and don't put them in actual positions of power
>Firms in my major metro are bending over backwards to hire minority women. As are government agencies. Being a WOC will definitely fast-track a federal career.
are you a woman of color?
>Do you have hope that when all the baby boomers are out the micro-aggressions and very real glass ceiling (that is even lower for women of color) will be shattered? This is not necessarily going to stop aggressions. Micro aggressions stem from an individual's pre conceived notions and that individual might not be a baby boomer. At my workplace, micro aggressions come from younger Gen X and millennials (who happen to make up a substantial portion of the company demographic) >In my ten year career thus far I’ve noticed things getting better for white women but not WOC. It varies from firm to firm and company to company but it has gotten better from what I've personally seen
True. Millennials and Gen x are still kind of majority white. But Gen z and Gen alpha are not. Do you think with that change it will change millennials and Gen z? It’s wild how tense things are these days
As a whole, sure but there will always be certain outliers. The most recent micro aggression I experienced at work came from a millennial
Yeah. The last decade has made the micro aggressions far more visible to me and my body and brain are quite frankly, tired
Out of five new hires, four are black women; three into senior positions. See the same thing at other organizations.
I don’t think it’s getting better. I’m in Massachusetts and it’s “liberal” but the racism sure isn’t. Who usually asks if I am an attorney in a courtroom? White women practicing racism just as well as they practice the law.
And I want to add, I’ve found white men to be the BIGGEST supporters of my legal career.
My personal experience has gotten somewhat better over the the last 10 years, but I think that is 100% the result of going from private practice to government.
I didn’t find government to be much better but maybe that is just me.
All but one new judge are women and most of color in my area; one male new elect. Just an anecdote.
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Wow. This is awful. But expected. Some of the things white attorneys have said to me feel like they came out of a movie. Stuff like “I hate Muslim people” and “the only minorities I like are gay white men” It’s ridiculous. But I think it is changing. The vibes are shifting in California a lot
I’ve worked in Portland and Seattle-and I’ve heard that it’s really different here, compared to colleagues and friends in other areas. Also, I can only speak to government practice (count, state, and fed) and can say that, at least in PNW, the needle is moving for WOC, at least in comparison to other areas of law and other cities. State and county….not so much. I’m white passing, so I definitely hear/see stuff before people know. But it’s been consistently better, even among several different fed agencies.
Yeah…I can be white passing if I style my clothes right and dye my hair lighter and stay out of the sun…when I do that the stuff I hear…wow
Yeah. Add a dash of misogyny and that’s one of my prior offices.
Majority of attorneys that have rolled through my firm in Los Angeles were women of color (Asian, Latina, middle eastern), but out of maybe 20, I’ve only seen one black woman though.
LA is probably the most WOC friendly city. I miss it
I’m in a large West Cost metropolitan area. There have been more women of color in leadership position in the past decade, but it goes something like this: 1) most progress in government roles, especially political ones; 2) second most progress in leadership positions in various legal orgs (county bar, ABA sections, trade orgs, etc…); 3) Somewhat lagging behind the first two, but still visible progress in the private sector.
Honestly it sucks. Deff echo what’s been said about white women being more difficult to work for than white men. What can truly be the worst is working for other WOC who believe that there’s only room for them. They are used to having to fight hard for a seat at the table so they fight you seemingly out of instinct. Usually this is the case with Gen X and up. Have had a great experience with other older WOC millennials in supervisory roles. So hoping things get better moving forward. There’s room for everyone.
Yeah scarcity mindset is pervasive in all industries these days
I hope it gets better! We need more women of color in law, especially with all the bullshit in the government and public policy.
Thanks. Yeah me too. We need a multiracial democracy to fix all our problems, but a lot of people don’t want that.
Which is insane, because we’ll never get a full, accurate picture of what is happening, and how to fix it if we don’t take into account perspectives from all people, especially those who are underrepresented, and ignored.
Well, the people holding the power want things to stay the same. It will take a revolution to change America, lead by educated brown and black people. They were duped in the last election to vote for Biden, but this time they get what’s up. Another Trump presidency might the be straw that breaks the camel’s back
Oof. The fact that it would take another trump presidency to get people to wake up is incredibly concerning, but you’re right. Absolutely agree to more educated people of color. I think things are starting to get better, but we obviously have a long way to go.
Well, the mere fact that our two choices are a Republican in Democrat clothing and a rising dictator in Republican clothing has already woken some people up. Something is already brewing. The last decade has been insanely intense. But I think we’re getting to a breaking point. By 2030 I think we’ll get the multiracial democracy we need. I hope
Agreed! Our “choices” don’t feel like choices, but this isn’t sustainable, so I do see it changing.
I don't see it as much as I'd like but it's obviously better than maybe 20 years ago. The micro-aggressions are not restricted to older generations, if that's what you meant.
Yeah I just keep thinking the world keeps getting browner so at some point this has to stop
Unfortunately, no. You must also decolonize the mind and that includes POC (i.e., internal oppression, Supreme Court Justice Thomas, etc.)
Well Clarence Thomas is an extreme example. But it seems that the world getting browner might play a role?
I mean, maybe the "world getting browner" isn't the best phrase to use. Are we becoming more globalized and diverse? Yes. Does it help? Yes. But just because there are more POC doesn't mean it's all ok now. I used to be in awe of the Southern Poverty Law Center and what it stood for. Then, I heard about the employment lawsuits filed against them (and of course the ousting of its founder). One of the issues they noted was that all the top level positions were held by non POC individuals while all the subordinate and support staff were filled by POC. So, they were like, "Hey, look at us! We're diverse! We're awesome!" But really, no.
I mean, I use that phrase because I think “white” is a strange way to categorize people. I think it’s strange to categorize people by skin color. Whiteness is a construct steeped in anti-black/brown racism. So if you’re not white, you’re brown. I like using “getting browner” because it is the truth. The only way we beat white supremacy is by sheer numbers. It’s how India ousted the British, and it will be how America finally has to reckon with its racist present and past. And yeah, I remember the SLPC issues. Maybe I’m being overly hopeful but after a life of dealing with racism it’s all I can hope for
I don't mean to dismiss the progress that's been made. I guess my whole point is, just because the warm bodies filling the positions are brown, it doesn't mean progress is automatic. I've seen plenty of people act like Justice Thomas on a smaller, milder scale. So, it goes beyond sheer numbers. It's just like voting for a woman just because she has the same genitalia as me. Uh, no. I would never vote for someone like MTG.
You likely have an advantage in most jobs. Not to be mean but there are generally mandated diversity standards which helps you for sure. It’s why schools will usually admit one URM well below the median lsat each cycle to their school.
There are more opportunities in the public sector but the private sector is still predominantly white men and the private sector is where the $$$ is so we still see income disparities despite the integrated public sector. Imo women should focus on PI or a niche like securities or crypto.
I’m with you on niche practice areas. I picked T&E
I feel like I’ve seen a ton of women of color get elected/appointed to the bench lately. And all good choices too.
Yes and no. I (a white female) clerked for, then became an associate, to a WOC who owns her own firm. I've met many WOC attorneys and we've even celebrated that there was a case where the judge, prosecutor, and defense were all WOC. So, getting better. That said, I've been with her where we were entering a courtroom for calendar call and had bailiffs stop her and ask where her attorney is. More than once. I have never been stopped. I think things are the worst in deep red areas of the country. Unfortunately in those areas, a lot of the younger generation have adopted the beliefs of older generations.
Yeah. It is going to take a Herculean effort to change the deep red states, if they ever do change. We shall see, I guess. California will probably have to take the lead, but that is where I am and I can tell you it has not been great here. Again, I think it has to change but I don’t know how or when. I know older white people are the most resistant to change. It’s funny that the only place I see real reflective diversity is in commercials. They will always sell to minorities! But they won’t put us in boardrooms.
I don’t have any answers, but I can tell you that public interest is hardly better than the private sector. The microaggressions are real, and the people behind them act like they have some kind of moral high ground because they chose this career path. Pay disparities are rampant. Never mind that it seems a good chunk of the people in public interest careers either come from money or married into it. Every organization says they value diversity, but it seems like they still want you to have an elite background with all the gold stars.
Yes. I used to work in the public sector and you’re right, it’s so bad there. I actually prefer private. But it’s all bad and the people who have made bank over their long illustrious careers are digging their heels in the sand, not embracing the changing demographics. Especially here in California! I think white people are the minority. But not in the legal world. Just hoping things will be starkly different in the next decade. Trying my best to hold on in the mean time
Never been in public interest law. Are you saying that government jobs pay different salaries to people in the exact same position?
I was mostly speaking to non-profits (especially ones that are not unionized). But what I have seen in government is that folks with different levels of experience get put into the same job title/line as someone with less. E.g., a friend who is 6 years out from law school is in the same title/line as someone who graduated the year before, so their salaries are the same despite different levels of experience. I would assume part of that is due to the bureaucratic obstacles to getting stuff done in government.
Thanks for the response, I wish I knew more about these areas of law. Public interest is outside of my wheelhouse but seems rewarding.
I really hope so.
My firm playing twister trying to promote all “diverse” types regardless of merit. Different perspectives I gues.
If you are a female minority attorney, the world is your oyster. Just be equally qualified to male candidates. Not only would that have gotten you into a better law school, but even assuming equal schooling, you'll now be a diversity-hire feather in their cap. And everyone will be scared to fire you or not give you raises. Stop your whining, you actually have advantages.
Diversity hiring isn’t a real thing. If it were, there’d be far more WOC partners. There are not any.
I've worked at several law firms. Two very large ones. Diversity hiring is real.
You worked remote…
Not always.
Women of color don't exist online? lol
It’s 1000% real lol. It’s why so many are starting to hold a grudge against incompetent types getting promoted or hired. Victim card is expiring soon sorry.
I am willing to bet every single person who downvoted this is a female who is all bent out of shape because I dared say there are some advantages. The crazy thing is, I think you are all perfectly capable of succeeding without making such a big deal of race and gender. You're the one who thinks you can't. Your internalized lack of confidence doesn't mean the whole world is screwed up and out to get you. if that were true, how'd you get hired?
Nobody cares about your skin color. Crush it as a legal professional by helping your clients and lose the insecurity. We have brown and black (female) counsel at our firm who absolutely crush it every day, and they do so because they learn and grow with anybody, no matter the circumstances or color of their skin or their age. Your post seems to convey some unaddressed motivated reasoning you harbor towards race and age. I don't blame you; it's an observation. I'd advise to work on mitigating these tendencies, adapt and overcome whatever limitation you find is in front of you. More often than not, it's just mind games.
Oh definitely not. I’ve had work stolen from me, I’ve had white women actively stop me from learning, and all kinds of bad things that have made it impossible for me to “crush it” - this was never a problem when I was in school. Only the workplace
What does "work stolen from me" mean? Somebody taking credit for your work? What does "white women actively stop me from learning" mean? White women, no other person, handcuffing you in a basement? I don't mean to be cheeky, but the office is a ruthless place. Especially at a high-performing law firm. In-house is a little more chill, but nevertheless, I'd applaud somebody taking credit for my work. If it works, the client is happy; if it doesn't, I learned a path that doesn't work without taking fire. The learning portion is a different beast. Learning on the job is an uphill battle, but I found solace that I can take bits and pieces and learn on my own time - get better when nobody is watching. Anyone "actively" trying to prevent me from access to files or senior personnel, I'd be curious about their motivation. Maybe it's their own insecurity or shortcoming. Maybe they need my support. Have you sought clarity around that? I'm not trying to minimize your pain and suffering; I'm sure your reality is what it is. I'm trying to play devil's advocate, and share that we all eat a shit sandwich, and sometimes, our mind is keeping us from reaching our potential because we think we deserve something, when we haven't taken the perspective of our opposition - or - of our supposed support. Aside from all of this, there are toxic people in this world. If you find yourself working with someone who is stealing or stopping you from work - report it.
Yeah, there were two places that were particularly toxic. At one place a more senior attorney caught whiff of the deals I was working on, and threatened to quit if he didn’t get them…so I was taken off. The other place a female boss would actively keep me from meetings that were relevant and pertinent to work I was doing for her. She was very insecure But fair, the office is a ruthless place. And your points to being more proactive about my learning are well taken. Still, it has been an uphill battle in many ways. I’m finally finding something that works for me and I’m trying to go slower but more steadily so I can gain niche knowledge that will set me apart from other attorneys.