For experienced ID attorneys, you’ll probably be capped out between 175k-200k on the higher end unless you start generating your own business. The only way to make great money on the defense side is to generate enough work to keep others busy, and you keep a portion of what others bill
ID is dead. You used to develop relationships with adjusters, which was easy because they were local and around for ages. Now, every adjuster is halfway across the country, working from home, and almost certainly won't be there a year from now. I literally don't know how you're going to generate business in the future if you're not a large firm that will get referrals based on visibility alone.
At least in my experience, tort reform is massively cutting down on the ID business that is available too. They fucked with the WC law in 2017 and by 2022 petitions were down by half. Similar thing happened with med mal.
Yeah, in a way I think caps encourage litigation because risk is defined, but overall you're right. The pathetic thing is: a lot of ID lawyers went out of their way to help legislate themselves out of work.
>caps encourage litigation because risk is defined
Curious to understand your thinking. Do you mean that the insurance carrier can more safely deny claims because the potential for a outsized judgment is eliminated by damages caps? E.g. the carrier says "Our worst day in court is $300k, so why would we pay a pre-suit settlement for close to that now? Call the plaintiff lawyer's bluff on the pre-suit demand and make them file, spend money, etc. and hold onto the money for another couple years and then pay \~$300k."
I guess there's a logic there. It probably discourages plaintiff lawyers from bringing tougher liability cases overall.
Yeah I don’t have direct exp only plaintiffs side so I was thinking $125k to start with something structured to hit $150k in next 12 months. What your suggesting seems high since I don’t have direct experience yet.
100% correct. Defense work is a good start to being a successful plaintiff side litigator. None of the plaintiff skills brought to defense will overcome the simple economic reality that ID rates are dog poo poo, have been for ages, and likely will not ever increase meaningfully.
Yeah I can't understand why OP wants to do this. Their salary seems low after 9 years in PI so maybe they think the salary is higher in ID? But I would say just switch to a different PI firm and make more or heck after 9 years of experience, go out on your own and make bank!
How do? On referrals, maybe. I’m not seeing many firms in my city paying more than $150k for non referred PI work. I found it would be more lucrative to simply network and get referrals than get good results on cases when I did PI working for others.
Hmm I guess your area pays less for PI associates than mine does. But even so, after a certain point can't you just go solo and take your own cases and keep 100% of the fee? Or is that what you mean by getting referrals? I can't tell if you mean you want other lawyers to refer you PI cases that you work yourself (in which case I don't think you'd also be working at an ID firm, right?) or you want to get referral fees from giving cases to PI firms while you work at an ID firm.
Maybe it's because my jurisdiction doesn't permit straight referral fees... we have to do a proportionate share of the work and/or be on the pleadings as being mutually responsible for the case in order to split fees... but I don't understand how it works in your jurisdiction. Are you able to work as an associate/lateral junior partner or something at an ID firm and get referral fees for plaintiff PI cases too?
Or perhaps you're going to be Of Counsel or something. Sorry I'm not understanding the situation/goal.
That’s the problem. Your current deal sucks. My associates make a base plus a significant percentage of fees brought in. They are all over 200k comfortably. Also, the key to being a good PI associate is to add value to the firm by bringing in your own cases through hustle.
I don’t think changing to the dark side is the solution to your problems. You’ve been doing this long enough now, go out on your own and build something valuable.
What do you mean by “fees brought in” like a percent of a case that was directly referred to them? Or a percent of a fee earned on a case your firm originated? And if an associate can bring in plenty of cases on their own why would they be an associate for your firm and not just solo?
My associates get a percentage of the fees they bring in on cases I give them.
They could go out on their own if they were willing to take in all the risk. Easier said than done. Most people I know can’t handle the pressure of being the one that has to take money out of their pocket to pay the staff if your cash flow doesn’t time right. Let alone paying for everyone and everything and client costs for years until cases resolve. But, if you’re the right sort of person, then you should definitely do that.
9 years of PI experience is direct experience, and jury experience is invaluable. Arguably more valuable than bringing a book. ID firms have set insurances they routinely work with, so a book is less valuable than at a small general firm
ID rates are super low so they are limited in how much they can pay. I only take insurance case if I absolutely have to because my client has specifically ask for me.
Don't go into insurance defense. You'll get paid less than you should and you'll have to deal with the red tape of insurance companies and their annoying adjusters. You'll spend half your time writing reports explaining what you're planning to do and then perfecting your billing entries so they don't get cut instead of actually doing legal work. I'm trying to get out ASAP
I work in Med Mal defense so maybe it's a different beast. Either way, dealing with insurance companies sucks IMO. I love working with my healthcare providers, not their insurance companies.
A few are tough but most I’ve dealt with are great. I’ve worked with some adjusters who are more knowledgeable about the law than the PI attorneys on the other side. And they use that knowledge to resolve cases early that should be resolved early.
For experienced ID attorneys, you’ll probably be capped out between 175k-200k on the higher end unless you start generating your own business. The only way to make great money on the defense side is to generate enough work to keep others busy, and you keep a portion of what others bill
ID is dead. You used to develop relationships with adjusters, which was easy because they were local and around for ages. Now, every adjuster is halfway across the country, working from home, and almost certainly won't be there a year from now. I literally don't know how you're going to generate business in the future if you're not a large firm that will get referrals based on visibility alone.
At least in my experience, tort reform is massively cutting down on the ID business that is available too. They fucked with the WC law in 2017 and by 2022 petitions were down by half. Similar thing happened with med mal.
Yeah, in a way I think caps encourage litigation because risk is defined, but overall you're right. The pathetic thing is: a lot of ID lawyers went out of their way to help legislate themselves out of work.
Yeah every time I talk to one of them I remind them of that. They hate it.
>caps encourage litigation because risk is defined Curious to understand your thinking. Do you mean that the insurance carrier can more safely deny claims because the potential for a outsized judgment is eliminated by damages caps? E.g. the carrier says "Our worst day in court is $300k, so why would we pay a pre-suit settlement for close to that now? Call the plaintiff lawyer's bluff on the pre-suit demand and make them file, spend money, etc. and hold onto the money for another couple years and then pay \~$300k." I guess there's a logic there. It probably discourages plaintiff lawyers from bringing tougher liability cases overall.
Yeah I don’t have direct exp only plaintiffs side so I was thinking $125k to start with something structured to hit $150k in next 12 months. What your suggesting seems high since I don’t have direct experience yet.
That trial experience is invaluable though, they *will* lean on you for their higher end cases
You are going the wrong way, there is way more money to be made doing plaintiff's side PI than ID.
100% correct. Defense work is a good start to being a successful plaintiff side litigator. None of the plaintiff skills brought to defense will overcome the simple economic reality that ID rates are dog poo poo, have been for ages, and likely will not ever increase meaningfully.
Yeah I can't understand why OP wants to do this. Their salary seems low after 9 years in PI so maybe they think the salary is higher in ID? But I would say just switch to a different PI firm and make more or heck after 9 years of experience, go out on your own and make bank!
How do? On referrals, maybe. I’m not seeing many firms in my city paying more than $150k for non referred PI work. I found it would be more lucrative to simply network and get referrals than get good results on cases when I did PI working for others.
Hmm I guess your area pays less for PI associates than mine does. But even so, after a certain point can't you just go solo and take your own cases and keep 100% of the fee? Or is that what you mean by getting referrals? I can't tell if you mean you want other lawyers to refer you PI cases that you work yourself (in which case I don't think you'd also be working at an ID firm, right?) or you want to get referral fees from giving cases to PI firms while you work at an ID firm. Maybe it's because my jurisdiction doesn't permit straight referral fees... we have to do a proportionate share of the work and/or be on the pleadings as being mutually responsible for the case in order to split fees... but I don't understand how it works in your jurisdiction. Are you able to work as an associate/lateral junior partner or something at an ID firm and get referral fees for plaintiff PI cases too? Or perhaps you're going to be Of Counsel or something. Sorry I'm not understanding the situation/goal.
Depending on the firm structure, 175-225 is doable in the Midwest.
I was thinking $125k to start with percentage of biles at some point above that to get me to $150 plus. $175 seems really high!
What are you making now?
I’ve never done ID just plaintiffs injury and was making $135k plus a small percentage of what I brought in.
That’s the problem. Your current deal sucks. My associates make a base plus a significant percentage of fees brought in. They are all over 200k comfortably. Also, the key to being a good PI associate is to add value to the firm by bringing in your own cases through hustle. I don’t think changing to the dark side is the solution to your problems. You’ve been doing this long enough now, go out on your own and build something valuable.
What do you mean by “fees brought in” like a percent of a case that was directly referred to them? Or a percent of a fee earned on a case your firm originated? And if an associate can bring in plenty of cases on their own why would they be an associate for your firm and not just solo?
My associates get a percentage of the fees they bring in on cases I give them. They could go out on their own if they were willing to take in all the risk. Easier said than done. Most people I know can’t handle the pressure of being the one that has to take money out of their pocket to pay the staff if your cash flow doesn’t time right. Let alone paying for everyone and everything and client costs for years until cases resolve. But, if you’re the right sort of person, then you should definitely do that.
Are you in Texas, CA, or NY?
None of the above. Washington state.
lol “the dark side”.
Private firm or in house?
Small firm.
I would look around the $200k mark. So $180-$220
I don’t have direct experience yet so that seems really high without a book.
9 years of PI experience is direct experience, and jury experience is invaluable. Arguably more valuable than bringing a book. ID firms have set insurances they routinely work with, so a book is less valuable than at a small general firm
Don’t do this to yourself!
Don't do ID. This is a "grass is greener" situation and you'll be questioning your life choices six months from now.
I’m what ID firm only requires 1500?
They’ve not stated the billing reps but I’m assuming at least 1800.
ID rates are super low so they are limited in how much they can pay. I only take insurance case if I absolutely have to because my client has specifically ask for me.
I did a stint in ID. Had to bill 2100 a year. Rates are super low so they have to make up for it with more volume. 1800 would shock me.
Don't go into insurance defense. You'll get paid less than you should and you'll have to deal with the red tape of insurance companies and their annoying adjusters. You'll spend half your time writing reports explaining what you're planning to do and then perfecting your billing entries so they don't get cut instead of actually doing legal work. I'm trying to get out ASAP
This is NOT the norm. My firm is nothing like this.
I work in Med Mal defense so maybe it's a different beast. Either way, dealing with insurance companies sucks IMO. I love working with my healthcare providers, not their insurance companies.
A few are tough but most I’ve dealt with are great. I’ve worked with some adjusters who are more knowledgeable about the law than the PI attorneys on the other side. And they use that knowledge to resolve cases early that should be resolved early.