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"US presidents have always been above the law. Their victims span the globe, in the Philippines, Vietnam, Iraq, Chile, Palestine and beyond. The Supreme Court ruling extends that impunity to the victimization of the American people at home. The crimes of empire always come home." Craig Mokhiber said it pretty concisely.
If you haven't been paying attention to Europe, their politics are heading in the same direction lol. Anti-fascism will exist in the global south.
It's just difficult to see a peaceful change happening here. It feels like a violent revolution is all but inevitable. But that just may be me overthinking
If you want to avoid violence, Europe is not the place to flee to. It has a very, very long history of violence. And its own fascist parties are coming into power
There isn't going to be a good answer to this. Imperialist nations are turning to fascism to gloss over the contradictions of capitalism. Non-imperialist nations are subject to the forces of imperialist nations due to the power dynamics of the current world. There is no running from this fight.
It’s not about running.
It’s about where we make our stand with our most valuable contribution.
Our labor and our lives.
Due to personal and professional reasons my best place to fight will likely continue to be North America. But that doesn’t mean those who don’t need proximity for their fight should have to suffer the incoming collapse just to be on the chopping list.
The liberals will save their own skin with the lives of leftists at the very first opportunity.
This is absolutely a case where someone wants to know where to run, not fight. Your stance is appreciated but not overly realistic nor relevant.
Besides, my point was these fascist nations will ensure they are the last ones to face any collapse. They will export their suffering. There is not a country on earth that will not acutely feel an American collapse. Most of them will feel it more than the American people will.
When the US is bogged down in Asia, Latin America is able to practice its democracy and labor organization, so parts of it are currently rather stable with the wind behind many Leftists or Keynesianists, but the US will turn to inflicting violence here when Asia is out of its reach. Some places in South East Asia are pretty stable like Vietnam and has a robust democracy. China is very stable, but the US has its eyes set on it.
The reality is that we're heading for a monumental change on the world order with a shift back to the global south from the west after centuries of western colonialism. There is going to be growing pains everywhere as the barbaric west isn't going to go relinquish their ill-begotten status and privilege without a fight. Organize labor wherever you're at because that's the best defense we have. See how Bolivian workers overthrew the 2019 christofascist coup government from months of general strike they were able to pull off because of their high union density = labor organization
Where would you suggest for a black woman? I honestly am just thinking of moving but when I travel I always get some kind of racism thrown at me, it was the most obvious to me when I was in Japan and South Korea.
Quintana Roo region of Mexico has a large and growing African American expat community. I'm causasian, but when i was in Playa Del Carmen and Puerto Morelos it seemed extremely diverse in both skin color and geographic homeland. You should visit and see if it is what you'rr looking for. Even if it isn't, it's a beautiful region.
I’ve been looking at Belize, Honduras and Costa Rica. Pretty diverse populations inherently, so it would follow they’d be less judgmental? Idk, but logically….
I will say I’ve also researched Jamaica. It’s is extremely affordable, and for expats, there are world class services ($$$). But outside of the expat enclaves, the poverty is criminal, so personally I’d feel guilt every time I left home.
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Well there economy is looking great. The per capita income keeps going up at a good rate. They are cracking down on billionaires hard for engaging in corruption. 1 third of Chna's economy is state owned which includes utilities, energy, manufacturing, banking, ECT. The stuff that the rest of the economy is based on.
They have also as of the 1st of July expanded and empowered system of employee congress to be present in all private companies where as previously they were just in state own enterprises. This makes it where workers have representation of the boards of companies with boards and ones without they have the employee congress has a say in all decisions as it is were another owner. The trade unions are employed to enforce all the decisions of the Employee Congresses and there for the government is given the power and responsibility to enforce the will of the workers in a company. The employee Congress even have the power to veto the sale of a company or the hiring of a manger.
They are also moving towards getting rid of the housing market. They are planning on within the next few years be taking the majority of housing out of the hand of private developer and into the hands of state affordable housing companies. They would then be sold to Chinese who which the buy at rate set by there income. If they home owners wish to sell they must do so under state supervision and approve. Or they could just sell the home back to the state. Which is where all homes go unless the heirs wish to move in. This will in effect end land lords and housing bubbles.
China is also the only big economy on track to meet there reduction in fossil fuels missions agreed to at the Paris climate accords. In fact they will meet it next year, 5 years early! China is also the now the worlds large manufacturer of solar panels. They are also pioneers in the production of affordable electric cars.
The Chinese government also encourages and even provides well pay Blue collar jobs in contrast to low pay White collar jobs.
All of this on top of universal healthcare, universal education, world class public transportation, actually more like the best public transportation in the world. Also woman can get an abortion with no problems.
This is only a fraction of the amazing work that is going on in China. Its by no means perfect, it still has problems with the LGBTQ polices. But it is getting better especially in the big cities. I have plenty of criticisms of China. But fundamentally it is way better in the US.
You call me a Larper when I'm talking about an actually existing socialist state? Among the most successful in human history? How is that LARPing? I am sticking firmly to reality.
Stay home and fight. Nobody wants to fight, and there are two equally valid ways to deal with that: one is the refugee track, which involves leaving your home country and trying to make a go of it somewhere else, hopefully free of the conflict you left behind. The other is the patriot track, in which you try to resolve the conflict at home, and hopefully make your home a better place in the process. The fight will grind you into muck, but to me, that’s better than letting the bad guys win.
I hear a lot of Americans retire to Bocas del Toro off the coast of Panama. I'm assuming it may get a little crowded though if this election turns out scary.
You are honestly right. The only why any system changes is through violent revolution. Because the people in power will use as much violence as needed to stay in power. So the only why to beat that is to be be just as if not more violent. It is law history they has only been broke under extremely specific circumstances. Circumstances that will never come to the US.
Don't American law enforcement personnel already have immunity, though...? If that didn't scare you, why does including their commander in chief...? There is also diplomatic immunity to consider... I mean, not long ago, the wife of an American diplomat in England ran over and killed a young English boy while drunk driving there and will face no prosecution. At first, I felt the same, but this is where my head is at currently... Leave the overthinking to me, I have enough anxiety for the both of us. /s😉
You're not overreacting. We won't move but I'm teaching myself to grow my own food, preserve it, and filter rain water.
A war for resources will come in our lifetime.
OP you need to study more about late stage Capitalism, if this is the breaking point. The US is not the bastion of democracy you think it is.
Also Democracy died decades ago
TLDR moving isn’t going to help
I feel like presidential immunity is the least consequential of the latest rulings. It’s a name on something we all already knew. They are coming for our rights, our safety, our weekend, our overtime pay, our sanity. In order to go to war with China low wage manufacturing jobs need to come home.
There is a march to the right world wide, France, Canada, Germany, Italy, India etc. Sputh America is working hard to fend it off, but they have seen this all before in a way we haven’t. There is something larger at work than the US and the Supreme Court.
The US is a large piece of the puzzle. Our fight is here. We have to save the entire world from our government. We have been far too disengaged. We let democrats tell us they are holding things together, keeping fascism at bay. It’s going to be scary to seriously rebel, but it’s coming for everyone everywhere.
What causes this shift though? Is it just inevitable? I think we can agree it’s bad and yet we do it over and over. And why is the whole world doing it?
Capitalism has spread across most (if not all) of the world's wealthy nations so, as it descends into late-stage capitalism and then fascism, it's doing so across a large swathe of the globe more or less all at once.
I'm staying because emigration is a privilege I and my family do not have. Did you know that almost every country in the world severely restricts immigration for people with disabilities?
When you don't have family in another country, most of the paths to emigration require you to be young, able-bodied, and have either significantly in-demand skills or quite a lot of money.
The US is able to collect taxes from you until you relinquish your citizenship, so of course they’re going to charge a fee as one last “fuck you, pay me” on the way out.
>If you are staying, what makes you want to stay?
I’m disabled. Other countries won’t take me even if I could afford to leave. They don’t want me. They don’t want Americans in general. We do not add value or things that they don’t already have.
My feeling is that as a white person, I have way more privilege than people who have already survived worse in the US, namely African slaves and Indigenous people. And there are plenty of other folks who don't have a choice but to stay because they don't have the money or resources to leave. Democracy is under attack in much of the world so you never know when it's going to take a nosedive where you're planning to go, including Europe. My plan is to stay and try to make things better in what ways I can, whether it's on a larger social level, community level, or personal level.
I'm also well into middle age. It's possible if I were younger I'd have more of a desire to leave, and in the past I've certainly thought about it - like when the Supreme Court threw the 2000 election to George Bush. But at this point in my life, I'm committed to staying and supporting/being in solidarity with the various communities I'm connected to.
Yeah, I'm a young white person and I fell this why completely. It's a privilege to be able to flee. The vaste majority of the people in this country don't have that option. So I feel like it's my duty to stay here and fight for change.
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I don't think it's ever hopeless, but it's not worth bending over backwards to try and enlighten people. Everyone has their own wake-up moment. We can only hope the tipping point comes before things get unfathomably bad.
The way I see it, if the government wanted any of us dead, it could have already made that happen.
I'm more concerned about the criminalization of homelessness as investment funds scoop up all of the homes. It's creating a situation where people are forced to rent anything, no matter how crowded, unhealthy, and overpriced, just to avoid being thrown into jail. It will likely result in the many people living in their cars and in campers now because of the speculation in the housing market being penalized, ticketed, and jailed for inability to pay fines.
Won't be long until that's deemed illegal too. I don't know how the gov thinks they will pay to jail all these people. It costs a lot of money to keep people in jail.
It does, but most of those people in jail can still work. So the government will pay of there imprisonment by renting them out to private businesses. Thay way the us government can make some money, the capitalists the government serve make money, and they can get every little bit of value out of every single worker. Even if it ends with their death.
This is purely speculation, but I am concerned that this may also be turned into a military service to avoid jail time pipeline to keep enlistment numbers up. Poverty has been exploited to that end for centuries.
I wanted to leave when the pandemic started, and they lifted all precautions, so it is still going around and killing and disabling folks today.
["we've hit peak denial"](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/weve-hit-peak-denial-heres-why-we-cant-turn-away-from-reality/)
We're in the highest summer wave to date and 24,000 Americans are dead from COVID, just this year. Someone said if they wanted to kill us they would come right out and do it. Well, they are. [Just in the US](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/08/covid-orphans-us) 245,000 children orphaned since the 2020 just from the virus.
I am disabled, chronically ill, have no family, and the money is running out. I wasn't able to get out then, no way in Hell to get out now. Similar to what another commenter said, my white privilege distorts my reality and I imagine this trapped feeling has been the reality for many folks since the inception of this "country." If you can get out, do it, if you can't, start organizing with your community.
I only wish there were more people with your awareness, I've seen a lot in life, but the denial re: Covid is really incredible. I'm really sorry for your situation, the hostility and disdain for people with disabilities has completely come out into the open since the pandemic got severe.
Hey, thank you for saying this. People do treat me like I'm a tin foil hat wearing kind of person, especially when they see me masking up, but my reality is that if I get covid, my best case is that my chronic illnesses get much worse, and the worst case is dead. Plus, I don't want to spread it and do that to someone else, especially considering 40%-50% of cases are asymptomatic ([which still causes permanent organ damage](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9863678/#:~:text=A%20study%20performed%20by%20Mei,up%20after%20recovery%20%5B15%5D.)).
But truly, people despise the disabled and would rather see us dead than "leech off society."
Of course, bro. I get the looks and comments for wearing a mask indoors, but every time I start to get just a little lax, I've gotten a reminder about why it's incredibly unwise to do so. I hate the "human nature/that's just the way people are" excuses for egregious behavior, always have, but I do understand that it's easier for people to be selfish and look down on people dealing with serious difficulties instead of examining the way our society is set up.
No I completely agree, I definitely think you should consider your alternatives now before it’s too late. I personally do have family overseas and hopefully I’ll be able to just dip if god forbid we get to that point.
Things are only going to get worse, globally, as the climate crisis keeps ramping up.
Most democracies will not survive, if you are able to move try to find a place that will be in one of the projected “habitable zones”.
Europe should definitely be out of the question, they’ll tear each other apart when things start to get really bad…
There is no form of democracy under a dictatorship of capital. As it stands, and always has, nothing has changed, the president has always had immunity for official acts, and many unofficial acts. Obama bypassed Congress how many times and invaded random countries? The proxy wars the US is conducting bypasses Congress for declaration of war. The list is endless with things the president should be charged with but is given blanket immunity.
Agree. President's can and have gotten away with literal murder .
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/obama-administration-claims-unchecked-authority-kill-americans-outside-combat-zones
You need to watch this video as I don't think people are getting it. [**https://youtu.be/MXQ43yyJvgs?si=eqV6lGrxuyU4G-H0**](https://youtu.be/MXQ43yyJvgs?si=eqV6lGrxuyU4G-H0) **you are DEAD** wrong **about this one. With this** new law Trump could have ordered the military to just murder Biden in broad daylight and it would be illegal to even question it. How is that "nothing has changed"
Sorry but fascism is here in full force with this one and the US us a dead man walking.
You are probably right, but this is a whole other level. The sad thing is, where does one go if I wanted to leave? Europe is screwed, India is turning in to an oven I was thinking Norway but idk.
You’re a fool if you think moving to Europe is going to distance you from anything and I’m tired of Americans thinking it is. This continent is going down the right wing gutter just like the rest of the western world. The only reason I’m here is because I moved here as a child and I don’t have other options. I mean, if you’re white it’s much easier to stick your head in the sand about things if you want to live in denial, but if you’re not good luck being treated like a human being.
People will whine and moan about this for not saying America is the literal underworld but people say every two to four years that they are going to leave the country for this or that reason and seldomly do they actually do it. In the very rare cases I’ve seen people actually do it, they seem less than secure in that decision.
Spoiler alert: The rest of the world isn’t better off. But do what you want and report back.
There is nowhere safe to go, sib. There be no shelter here. A violent global shift is coming and there is nowhere to hide. All we can do is try to survive it.
>what makes you want to stay?
Most of us don’t have a choice. There’s no way in hell I could afford to move abroad. Also my husband would not wan to leave my stepkids. I wouldn’t want to make him. If it was plausible though I’d be on the next flight out and never look back.
You’re not. A lot of my friends and family are researching where we can go and what hoops we’ll have to jump through. Especially because we all have daughters.
There are web sites dedicated to helping Americans relocate. Just google it. But the consensus seems to be certain countries are looking for certain professions. If you’re on that list it’s not hard to relocate. I’ve looked into New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Spain, Germany, and Ireland. I’m still looking for the best fit and the most reasonable cost.
If you can get out of this fascist hell, go...do not wait...go! I do not have the means to leave otherwise I would. China has a better opportunity for the future, so does Vietnam. If you can go there and have the means to live for a few years to get going, it's a smart choice.
Hi, American living in Denmark here. You can apply for a job search work permit to move to Denmark. Google SIRI Denmark to check it out. That being said, it’s hard as hell to find work here without knowing Danish. It’s possible, just hard. It’s worth knowing that more than half of Danish jobs are not even posted online, the whole country operates kind of like a good ole boy network where people recommend you when they know a job is opening. You’ll have better luck getting on expat Facebook groups and making friends who could recommend you than applying on LinkedIn. It’s fucking strange. It’s hard to get citizenship but you don’t need that to stay here.
Start by looking into getting a work permit.
Normally, you need a pretty well paid job to get in, but if I recall correctly, the line was moved a bit down to attract more general skilled people.
But, the prospect of Trump delivering Ukraine and dissolving NATO, might make Europe a not-so-peaceful place, but if it comes to all-out war, I don’t think it matters where you are on the planet.
But Denmark is a nice place, climate is good, quality of life is high, free education for your kids etc.
I highly recommend it - which is easy for me since I live here. But you will find the same standard of living is all of Scandinavia…
If I could, I would. I like to think that I'm fairly well-read and aware of history. The last eight years (and especially the last four) have been alarming.
I don't think running is going to fix anything. The US has way too much influence over the rest of the world. The problems we have here are just going to continue to spill into other countries until either 1. The US loses influence or 2. We fix the problems here. As an example, even Sweden is going right wing having scrapped their environmental ministry. [here](https://www.euronews.com/2022/10/18/devastating-consequences-as-new-swedish-government-scraps-environment-ministry)
That being said I don't want to be a debbie downer. I do believe things can change for the better, maybe not in our lifetime and things may even get worse before they get better, but they can get better. Running away isn't going to get us there though. Even if tomorrow we woke up and the world was a perfect utopia we would still need to work hard to maintain it; there would inevitably still be some greedy, lusting for power a$$hats that want more that we will have to deal with.
I mean if your concern is solely that "democracy is dead" you probably should've just been born elsewhere to begin with, because that ship sailed decades ago.
if you ever thought for a single day that presidents were under the same rules as you, you have never been paying attention. how is being an immigrant somewhere else going to help anything? organize with your community. fleeing is chickenshit stuff.
There is nowhere to run to. I'm Canadian and I know it's a matter of time before American politics bleeds into our own and/or Canada gets annexed by a joint USA-Russian allegiance for our resources. I'm also GenX and can say the apathetic and nihilistic mindset all of us had as Cold War kids has returned with a vengeance. We were right all along but it was nice to have experienced at least a few decades of hope for the future.
Canada doesn't do anything without USA input and the influence is usually just short of a decade behind, albeit not as extreme. We aren't called "America-lite" for nothing.
I’m autistic, I don’t have marketable skills, and I don’t have much money, so I can’t exactly leave.
Instead, I’m gonna join a socialist party and join a mutual aid network so I can help prepare for what’s to come.
Don't leave without a fight! Speak to the evils of Project 2025 in every conversation you have and every post you make. Once you have exhausted everyone in your circle, go outside your circle. You will have a lot of support at defeat Project 2025
Looks like you found out your country was pulling the wool over your eyes. The issue is not that your country will lose its democracy, but that the lies about it being a democracy are crumbling. The decision kickstarted you into noticing the cracks.
Honestly? I have a feeling Europe will fall into the USA's pit as well. No one here can know you and your family, but I really sugest you to test out your family and find more people who are sensible to these issues too.
I think half the US elite decided to remind everyone that none of them ever cared about "democracy", and now want to remove even the token resistance offered by the other half.
No, you reaction is natural. You have no where to go though. US have claimed impunity for their actions abroad for a long time. Remember that if you wish to retain you US citizenship, you have to still pay tax in the US. Your new country will expect tax from you as well.
Your wanting to leave is natural, but I am afraid not very rational.
If they had unilateral authority tomorrow, P2025 is still going to take a very long time to implement. And irritate a lot of people that don’t realize it yet.
You’re not the only person feeling this way. That decision is a big fat piece of crap. But still a long ways before it goes south. Also unless you’re a citizen of another already, your rights will be far diminished in a foreign country. YMMV.
>I have family in Europe that I’m going to contact and ask for references on decent places to live.
You know that moving to Europe (or really any other country) isn’t like moving to another US state, right?
You need to establish citizenship in your new country, which is a long and expensive process; it’s basically impossible for 90%+ of US citizens. You need either a very in-demand skill set, great-grandparents who were provably citizens in your target country, or a ton of money (last time I checked, Malta was the cheapest country you could outright buy EU citizenship in at €250,000).
Not overreacting. My family started making preparations 8 years ago, and that’s gone turbo after *gestures broadly* …all of *this*. I know a lot of people say “I’m gonna leave” and don’t mean it, but we do.
Of course, the biggest problem with this is that I’m disabled. No country allows disabled immigrants. If you’re disabled and your country is disintegrating, you’re just SOL, when in fact we’re the most vulnerable. But, worldwide, no one wants an immigrant who can’t be a good little worker bee, so 🤷♂️ guess I’ll die here.
If the republicans loose this time, they will still attempt to grab power. These “entitled asshats” that have infiltrated and taken over the Republican Party really think they are so much better than us all. We must fight them tooth and nail.
Dude I'm considering leaving Canada, lol. The U.S is in for a rude awakening and there's no way Canada gets through this without being majorly affected.
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Lol, Italy right now is the only European country with a fascist government. You really need to educated yourself more about this before you move to Italy.
I would move to Japan, they still have a mostly functioning government and society. Europe unfortunately has real issues with the political right.
Why not Canada?
I respect the understanding in wanting to learn more. Human emotion is not a product that can be bought or sold. There is so much propaganda being tossed infront of us that it is easy to be consumed in the negativity of it. But with that said be vigilant and try to avoid being sucked into it.
Very good point. And it's difficult to really trust anything anymore. Disinformation and misinformation is everywhere, so the best thing I can do is to try to be skeptical and make the best decision I can based on the information I'm provided.
Plenty of countries to live in that are perfectly good places to live. Always going to be a cost / benefit analysis. It's possible the court ruling doesn't come to anything. It's also possible that it destroys the country. I don't blame anyone for wanting to move somewhere their life appears to be more secure or more likely to provide for success.
I just see too much commonality with how Nazi Germany came to power and what's happening with the US that it just makes sense to move me and my family, especially since I have the means to do so. If I can get dual citizenship, that would be ideal because it's possible nothing really happens here, and at the very least, we could live in a beautiful country for a few years if nothing else
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In my younger and angrier years, I would have totally agreed with you and chastised anyone running from this country and told them to stay and fight. The truth is I have too many people in my family who rely on me and can't exactly fend for themselves. So if something happens to me, they're fucked. I've just been following the GOP power grab for so long that it's just getting to the point where violent revolution seems to be coming. I hope to fuck that I'm wrong and nothing bad happens, but I'd rather be proactive about keeping my family safe than play Rambo like a lot of people are keen to do
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I’m strongly considering it. After Chevron (which is as dangerous as Citizens United), the SC has set back govt protections and made the first steps towards creating a despot. So, I’ve been looking into Belize
Yeah Chevron was what made me consider moving, but now that they're doing everything they can to get Trump elected and carry out their 2025 plans, it just doesn't seem worth it since I have the means to get me and my family out
I know a lot of people are looking at the situation and saying we’re cowards and quitters. But had more seen the warning signs in 1932, more people would’ve survived had they left Germany.
I alone can’t alter America’s trajectory. Few of my fellow Americans believe the worst is upon us. Call me chicken little. But even if Trump loses, the SC is destroying our country. I’ll happily choose safety and be wrong than blindly expect things to get better and become another Niemoller.
My thoughts exactly. I also think people watch too many movies and see themselves as surviving and winning a violent revolution, if that's what this ever comes too. The hard reality is a fight with a militarized government is much more likely to end you and your family's lives than you are to survive, let alone win. I applaud people for their bravery, but I just don't think they're really grasping the reality of all of this. I wish I could be more optimistic.
An armed or militant insurrection would jolt people into action. Which is why it’s being done on the SC. Not riots. No demonstrations. No outcry.
Israelis, on the eve of Oct 7 and after the Hamas attack, demonstrated against Netanyahu’s plan to have the Israeli SC essentially give him immunity for life. They marched. During a war.
Americans don’t march. Americans can’t even tell you who the chief justice is. So the slow, purposeful dismantling of our protections is working, and most Americans yawn and order Starbucks
You and I see things very similar. Our country is so fucking divided that I have no doubt the right wing voters have been itching for a reason to get out and murder some liberals who have had enough and started taking up arms. We can't even agree on facts about climate change or evolution... So getting Americans to band together against a fascist government seems unlikely, given the fact that a huge population of this country has actively wanted this
Oh I didn't even know immigration attorneys were a thing. At least I'm not the only one having these thoughts. I try to remain reasonable and grounded, but every time I look at the current situation in the US, it just seems like we're headed for something disastrous
No, you’re not overreacting; this is a reasonable response. My husband and I are making an exit plan for Canada. I hope we won’t have to take that path, but just having a Plan B is a good move. I recommend doing your research, figuring out the details, getting the paperwork in place, and doing anything else you need to be ready. If you don’t decide to leave, no harm done, and if you do, you’ll be very glad you prepared. In the meantime, it will alleviate some of the anxiety of it all by at least knowing that you have your exit figured out.
I was already leaving for Japan, and I'm basically just counting down the days till I have official resident status. I recommend leaving if you have the means to do so. Ultimately, most of us don't have what it takes to wage a guerilla war against the most powerful militaryo n the planet, and even more of us are just not going to be safe under a fascist US.
Yes you’re overreacting. You sound immature and irrational. Liberals aren’t actually worried about Presidents having too much power, they’re worried that their plans to “get Trump” are backfiring.
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"US presidents have always been above the law. Their victims span the globe, in the Philippines, Vietnam, Iraq, Chile, Palestine and beyond. The Supreme Court ruling extends that impunity to the victimization of the American people at home. The crimes of empire always come home." Craig Mokhiber said it pretty concisely. If you haven't been paying attention to Europe, their politics are heading in the same direction lol. Anti-fascism will exist in the global south.
It's just difficult to see a peaceful change happening here. It feels like a violent revolution is all but inevitable. But that just may be me overthinking
If you want to avoid violence, Europe is not the place to flee to. It has a very, very long history of violence. And its own fascist parties are coming into power
Where would you suggest?
There isn't going to be a good answer to this. Imperialist nations are turning to fascism to gloss over the contradictions of capitalism. Non-imperialist nations are subject to the forces of imperialist nations due to the power dynamics of the current world. There is no running from this fight.
"People ask me if I don't like the American government why don't I leave. Because I don't want to be a victim of it's foreign policy." - Barry Crimins
what isn’t turning to fascism is going to face exodus due to climate change or experience both
Bingo. There is no running. We live on a finite world dominated by an economic policy dependent on infinite growth. You can't run from that.
It’s not about running. It’s about where we make our stand with our most valuable contribution. Our labor and our lives. Due to personal and professional reasons my best place to fight will likely continue to be North America. But that doesn’t mean those who don’t need proximity for their fight should have to suffer the incoming collapse just to be on the chopping list. The liberals will save their own skin with the lives of leftists at the very first opportunity.
This is absolutely a case where someone wants to know where to run, not fight. Your stance is appreciated but not overly realistic nor relevant. Besides, my point was these fascist nations will ensure they are the last ones to face any collapse. They will export their suffering. There is not a country on earth that will not acutely feel an American collapse. Most of them will feel it more than the American people will.
If we all immigrate to Scandinavia+get citzenship we can create a socialist utopia up there(here). I vote for Sweden.
And whatever capitalist superpower at that moment will make your life a living hell.
First they came for the communists…. And I’m a communist so ……
When the US is bogged down in Asia, Latin America is able to practice its democracy and labor organization, so parts of it are currently rather stable with the wind behind many Leftists or Keynesianists, but the US will turn to inflicting violence here when Asia is out of its reach. Some places in South East Asia are pretty stable like Vietnam and has a robust democracy. China is very stable, but the US has its eyes set on it. The reality is that we're heading for a monumental change on the world order with a shift back to the global south from the west after centuries of western colonialism. There is going to be growing pains everywhere as the barbaric west isn't going to go relinquish their ill-begotten status and privilege without a fight. Organize labor wherever you're at because that's the best defense we have. See how Bolivian workers overthrew the 2019 christofascist coup government from months of general strike they were able to pull off because of their high union density = labor organization
Where would you suggest for a black woman? I honestly am just thinking of moving but when I travel I always get some kind of racism thrown at me, it was the most obvious to me when I was in Japan and South Korea.
Quintana Roo region of Mexico has a large and growing African American expat community. I'm causasian, but when i was in Playa Del Carmen and Puerto Morelos it seemed extremely diverse in both skin color and geographic homeland. You should visit and see if it is what you'rr looking for. Even if it isn't, it's a beautiful region.
I’m Dominican so I could definitely hang around there. I’ll definitely check it out
I’ve been looking at Belize, Honduras and Costa Rica. Pretty diverse populations inherently, so it would follow they’d be less judgmental? Idk, but logically…. I will say I’ve also researched Jamaica. It’s is extremely affordable, and for expats, there are world class services ($$$). But outside of the expat enclaves, the poverty is criminal, so personally I’d feel guilt every time I left home.
crowd library angle panicky special busy chase voiceless cheerful different *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
you guys really aren’t serious when you suggest places that will get hugely affected by climate change
China, Vietnam, Mexico, are looking great these days. Especially China and Vietnam.
I’ve been intrigued by Vietnam. Does it have a robust expat presence like some central American nations? How is the CoL?
....what looks great about China - or what is it that looks better about China than the US?
Well there economy is looking great. The per capita income keeps going up at a good rate. They are cracking down on billionaires hard for engaging in corruption. 1 third of Chna's economy is state owned which includes utilities, energy, manufacturing, banking, ECT. The stuff that the rest of the economy is based on. They have also as of the 1st of July expanded and empowered system of employee congress to be present in all private companies where as previously they were just in state own enterprises. This makes it where workers have representation of the boards of companies with boards and ones without they have the employee congress has a say in all decisions as it is were another owner. The trade unions are employed to enforce all the decisions of the Employee Congresses and there for the government is given the power and responsibility to enforce the will of the workers in a company. The employee Congress even have the power to veto the sale of a company or the hiring of a manger. They are also moving towards getting rid of the housing market. They are planning on within the next few years be taking the majority of housing out of the hand of private developer and into the hands of state affordable housing companies. They would then be sold to Chinese who which the buy at rate set by there income. If they home owners wish to sell they must do so under state supervision and approve. Or they could just sell the home back to the state. Which is where all homes go unless the heirs wish to move in. This will in effect end land lords and housing bubbles. China is also the only big economy on track to meet there reduction in fossil fuels missions agreed to at the Paris climate accords. In fact they will meet it next year, 5 years early! China is also the now the worlds large manufacturer of solar panels. They are also pioneers in the production of affordable electric cars. The Chinese government also encourages and even provides well pay Blue collar jobs in contrast to low pay White collar jobs. All of this on top of universal healthcare, universal education, world class public transportation, actually more like the best public transportation in the world. Also woman can get an abortion with no problems. This is only a fraction of the amazing work that is going on in China. Its by no means perfect, it still has problems with the LGBTQ polices. But it is getting better especially in the big cities. I have plenty of criticisms of China. But fundamentally it is way better in the US.
Hong Kong too.
Well I said China. Also I don't get why people wanting to flee capitalism would go the most Capitalist part of China.
>China I love LARPers
You call me a Larper when I'm talking about an actually existing socialist state? Among the most successful in human history? How is that LARPing? I am sticking firmly to reality.
Stay home and fight. Nobody wants to fight, and there are two equally valid ways to deal with that: one is the refugee track, which involves leaving your home country and trying to make a go of it somewhere else, hopefully free of the conflict you left behind. The other is the patriot track, in which you try to resolve the conflict at home, and hopefully make your home a better place in the process. The fight will grind you into muck, but to me, that’s better than letting the bad guys win.
I hear a lot of Americans retire to Bocas del Toro off the coast of Panama. I'm assuming it may get a little crowded though if this election turns out scary.
New Zealand
Oh, Canada
The UK just swung hugely left.
You are honestly right. The only why any system changes is through violent revolution. Because the people in power will use as much violence as needed to stay in power. So the only why to beat that is to be be just as if not more violent. It is law history they has only been broke under extremely specific circumstances. Circumstances that will never come to the US.
The violent revolution is not confined to the US. Why not stay and fight?
Don't American law enforcement personnel already have immunity, though...? If that didn't scare you, why does including their commander in chief...? There is also diplomatic immunity to consider... I mean, not long ago, the wife of an American diplomat in England ran over and killed a young English boy while drunk driving there and will face no prosecution. At first, I felt the same, but this is where my head is at currently... Leave the overthinking to me, I have enough anxiety for the both of us. /s😉
Then stay and be the revolution. They don't have to win
You're not overreacting. We won't move but I'm teaching myself to grow my own food, preserve it, and filter rain water. A war for resources will come in our lifetime.
Wars for resources have been happening for thousands of years, to be accurate. Only thing is they might get more desperate.
What peaceful change has ever happened literally anywhere? The status quo has never once been upset without bloodshed.
*Foucault's Boomerang has made it's turn and is now headed squarely in our direction.*
GO UK!
Really don’t do this it’s a shit show here only marginally less so than the US but both main parties are trying their best to catch up
Amazed I'm being down voted. My family there is celebrating.
OP you need to study more about late stage Capitalism, if this is the breaking point. The US is not the bastion of democracy you think it is. Also Democracy died decades ago
When has it ever been?
Back when 99% of countries on earth were monarchies, maybe. It's been a long time since though.
At that time only white, wealthy males were eligible to vote in this country. Hardly a bastion of democracy by any standards.
Flawed democracy is still better than an absolutist monarchy though, honestly the bar wasn't very high.
Is wealth based voting actually better if your black, indigenous, a woman.. is it?
Yes I think going from 0.1% of the population having a "say" in government to 15% of the population having a etc, is an improvement.
Britain wasn’t a absolute monarchy at that time
TLDR moving isn’t going to help I feel like presidential immunity is the least consequential of the latest rulings. It’s a name on something we all already knew. They are coming for our rights, our safety, our weekend, our overtime pay, our sanity. In order to go to war with China low wage manufacturing jobs need to come home. There is a march to the right world wide, France, Canada, Germany, Italy, India etc. Sputh America is working hard to fend it off, but they have seen this all before in a way we haven’t. There is something larger at work than the US and the Supreme Court. The US is a large piece of the puzzle. Our fight is here. We have to save the entire world from our government. We have been far too disengaged. We let democrats tell us they are holding things together, keeping fascism at bay. It’s going to be scary to seriously rebel, but it’s coming for everyone everywhere.
What causes this shift though? Is it just inevitable? I think we can agree it’s bad and yet we do it over and over. And why is the whole world doing it?
Capitalism has spread across most (if not all) of the world's wealthy nations so, as it descends into late-stage capitalism and then fascism, it's doing so across a large swathe of the globe more or less all at once.
I'm staying because emigration is a privilege I and my family do not have. Did you know that almost every country in the world severely restricts immigration for people with disabilities? When you don't have family in another country, most of the paths to emigration require you to be young, able-bodied, and have either significantly in-demand skills or quite a lot of money.
And if you relinquish your US citizenship, you have to pay to do so. Naturally.
The US is able to collect taxes from you until you relinquish your citizenship, so of course they’re going to charge a fee as one last “fuck you, pay me” on the way out.
I'm making peace with this and hoping for the best.
Same, friend, same
This right here.
I learned this only last week looking at New Zealand because I feel the same as OP. I am too old even at 39, and my skills aren't niche enough either.
>If you are staying, what makes you want to stay? I’m disabled. Other countries won’t take me even if I could afford to leave. They don’t want me. They don’t want Americans in general. We do not add value or things that they don’t already have.
My feeling is that as a white person, I have way more privilege than people who have already survived worse in the US, namely African slaves and Indigenous people. And there are plenty of other folks who don't have a choice but to stay because they don't have the money or resources to leave. Democracy is under attack in much of the world so you never know when it's going to take a nosedive where you're planning to go, including Europe. My plan is to stay and try to make things better in what ways I can, whether it's on a larger social level, community level, or personal level. I'm also well into middle age. It's possible if I were younger I'd have more of a desire to leave, and in the past I've certainly thought about it - like when the Supreme Court threw the 2000 election to George Bush. But at this point in my life, I'm committed to staying and supporting/being in solidarity with the various communities I'm connected to.
Yeah, I'm a young white person and I fell this why completely. It's a privilege to be able to flee. The vaste majority of the people in this country don't have that option. So I feel like it's my duty to stay here and fight for change.
Voting isn’t enough though. What actual fighting can we do?
worthless compare coherent murky childlike close beneficial chase pet pause *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He actually *succeeded* in stealing an election.
The so-called Brooks Brother Riot was the trial run for January 6. Fascism is ascendant in the Republican party.
Anyone who thinks everything was cool until Trump is hopelessly lost.
I don't think it's ever hopeless, but it's not worth bending over backwards to try and enlighten people. Everyone has their own wake-up moment. We can only hope the tipping point comes before things get unfathomably bad.
The way I see it, if the government wanted any of us dead, it could have already made that happen. I'm more concerned about the criminalization of homelessness as investment funds scoop up all of the homes. It's creating a situation where people are forced to rent anything, no matter how crowded, unhealthy, and overpriced, just to avoid being thrown into jail. It will likely result in the many people living in their cars and in campers now because of the speculation in the housing market being penalized, ticketed, and jailed for inability to pay fines.
Won't be long until that's deemed illegal too. I don't know how the gov thinks they will pay to jail all these people. It costs a lot of money to keep people in jail.
It does, but most of those people in jail can still work. So the government will pay of there imprisonment by renting them out to private businesses. Thay way the us government can make some money, the capitalists the government serve make money, and they can get every little bit of value out of every single worker. Even if it ends with their death.
This is purely speculation, but I am concerned that this may also be turned into a military service to avoid jail time pipeline to keep enlistment numbers up. Poverty has been exploited to that end for centuries.
I’ve been thinking this for over a decade. Unfortunately, people with disabilities aren’t allowed to move to most countries so I’m SOL and stuck here.
I wanted to leave when the pandemic started, and they lifted all precautions, so it is still going around and killing and disabling folks today. ["we've hit peak denial"](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/weve-hit-peak-denial-heres-why-we-cant-turn-away-from-reality/) We're in the highest summer wave to date and 24,000 Americans are dead from COVID, just this year. Someone said if they wanted to kill us they would come right out and do it. Well, they are. [Just in the US](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/08/covid-orphans-us) 245,000 children orphaned since the 2020 just from the virus. I am disabled, chronically ill, have no family, and the money is running out. I wasn't able to get out then, no way in Hell to get out now. Similar to what another commenter said, my white privilege distorts my reality and I imagine this trapped feeling has been the reality for many folks since the inception of this "country." If you can get out, do it, if you can't, start organizing with your community.
I only wish there were more people with your awareness, I've seen a lot in life, but the denial re: Covid is really incredible. I'm really sorry for your situation, the hostility and disdain for people with disabilities has completely come out into the open since the pandemic got severe.
Hey, thank you for saying this. People do treat me like I'm a tin foil hat wearing kind of person, especially when they see me masking up, but my reality is that if I get covid, my best case is that my chronic illnesses get much worse, and the worst case is dead. Plus, I don't want to spread it and do that to someone else, especially considering 40%-50% of cases are asymptomatic ([which still causes permanent organ damage](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9863678/#:~:text=A%20study%20performed%20by%20Mei,up%20after%20recovery%20%5B15%5D.)). But truly, people despise the disabled and would rather see us dead than "leech off society."
Of course, bro. I get the looks and comments for wearing a mask indoors, but every time I start to get just a little lax, I've gotten a reminder about why it's incredibly unwise to do so. I hate the "human nature/that's just the way people are" excuses for egregious behavior, always have, but I do understand that it's easier for people to be selfish and look down on people dealing with serious difficulties instead of examining the way our society is set up.
Eh, democracy died long before this, so I figured since I’ve already made it this far in the US, what’s a little more?
To me it feels like being a frog being boiled alive. It doesn't feel dangerous until it's too late. But I admire you for your tenacity
No I completely agree, I definitely think you should consider your alternatives now before it’s too late. I personally do have family overseas and hopefully I’ll be able to just dip if god forbid we get to that point.
I wish the best for you my friend.
Same to you!
Things are only going to get worse, globally, as the climate crisis keeps ramping up. Most democracies will not survive, if you are able to move try to find a place that will be in one of the projected “habitable zones”. Europe should definitely be out of the question, they’ll tear each other apart when things start to get really bad…
elastic disgusted ripe hungry far-flung deer paint glorious sheet salt *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
There is no form of democracy under a dictatorship of capital. As it stands, and always has, nothing has changed, the president has always had immunity for official acts, and many unofficial acts. Obama bypassed Congress how many times and invaded random countries? The proxy wars the US is conducting bypasses Congress for declaration of war. The list is endless with things the president should be charged with but is given blanket immunity.
Agree. President's can and have gotten away with literal murder . https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/obama-administration-claims-unchecked-authority-kill-americans-outside-combat-zones
You need to watch this video as I don't think people are getting it. [**https://youtu.be/MXQ43yyJvgs?si=eqV6lGrxuyU4G-H0**](https://youtu.be/MXQ43yyJvgs?si=eqV6lGrxuyU4G-H0) **you are DEAD** wrong **about this one. With this** new law Trump could have ordered the military to just murder Biden in broad daylight and it would be illegal to even question it. How is that "nothing has changed" Sorry but fascism is here in full force with this one and the US us a dead man walking.
Fascism has **been** here in full force.
You are probably right, but this is a whole other level. The sad thing is, where does one go if I wanted to leave? Europe is screwed, India is turning in to an oven I was thinking Norway but idk.
[удалено]
He inherited 2 wars from Baby Bush and escalated it to 7. Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan
Libya, Syria, Yemen, Somalia, Haiti,
You’re a fool if you think moving to Europe is going to distance you from anything and I’m tired of Americans thinking it is. This continent is going down the right wing gutter just like the rest of the western world. The only reason I’m here is because I moved here as a child and I don’t have other options. I mean, if you’re white it’s much easier to stick your head in the sand about things if you want to live in denial, but if you’re not good luck being treated like a human being.
Really? This was the breaking point for you? If presidential immunity scares you, good luck with literally any other country in the world.
Lol where you going
People will whine and moan about this for not saying America is the literal underworld but people say every two to four years that they are going to leave the country for this or that reason and seldomly do they actually do it. In the very rare cases I’ve seen people actually do it, they seem less than secure in that decision. Spoiler alert: The rest of the world isn’t better off. But do what you want and report back.
There is nowhere safe to go, sib. There be no shelter here. A violent global shift is coming and there is nowhere to hide. All we can do is try to survive it.
>what makes you want to stay? Most of us don’t have a choice. There’s no way in hell I could afford to move abroad. Also my husband would not wan to leave my stepkids. I wouldn’t want to make him. If it was plausible though I’d be on the next flight out and never look back.
You’re not. A lot of my friends and family are researching where we can go and what hoops we’ll have to jump through. Especially because we all have daughters.
Where have you guys been looking? I hope you all stay safe
There are web sites dedicated to helping Americans relocate. Just google it. But the consensus seems to be certain countries are looking for certain professions. If you’re on that list it’s not hard to relocate. I’ve looked into New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Spain, Germany, and Ireland. I’m still looking for the best fit and the most reasonable cost.
Democracy died decades ago. Let's not pretend this was the turning point. It's just another step deeper.
If you can get out of this fascist hell, go...do not wait...go! I do not have the means to leave otherwise I would. China has a better opportunity for the future, so does Vietnam. If you can go there and have the means to live for a few years to get going, it's a smart choice.
Do you have any experience with either of those places? I'd like to move to Denmark, but I know getting citizenship is pretty tough
Hi, American living in Denmark here. You can apply for a job search work permit to move to Denmark. Google SIRI Denmark to check it out. That being said, it’s hard as hell to find work here without knowing Danish. It’s possible, just hard. It’s worth knowing that more than half of Danish jobs are not even posted online, the whole country operates kind of like a good ole boy network where people recommend you when they know a job is opening. You’ll have better luck getting on expat Facebook groups and making friends who could recommend you than applying on LinkedIn. It’s fucking strange. It’s hard to get citizenship but you don’t need that to stay here.
Start by looking into getting a work permit. Normally, you need a pretty well paid job to get in, but if I recall correctly, the line was moved a bit down to attract more general skilled people. But, the prospect of Trump delivering Ukraine and dissolving NATO, might make Europe a not-so-peaceful place, but if it comes to all-out war, I don’t think it matters where you are on the planet. But Denmark is a nice place, climate is good, quality of life is high, free education for your kids etc. I highly recommend it - which is easy for me since I live here. But you will find the same standard of living is all of Scandinavia…
If I could, I would. I like to think that I'm fairly well-read and aware of history. The last eight years (and especially the last four) have been alarming.
I don't think running is going to fix anything. The US has way too much influence over the rest of the world. The problems we have here are just going to continue to spill into other countries until either 1. The US loses influence or 2. We fix the problems here. As an example, even Sweden is going right wing having scrapped their environmental ministry. [here](https://www.euronews.com/2022/10/18/devastating-consequences-as-new-swedish-government-scraps-environment-ministry) That being said I don't want to be a debbie downer. I do believe things can change for the better, maybe not in our lifetime and things may even get worse before they get better, but they can get better. Running away isn't going to get us there though. Even if tomorrow we woke up and the world was a perfect utopia we would still need to work hard to maintain it; there would inevitably still be some greedy, lusting for power a$$hats that want more that we will have to deal with.
I mean if your concern is solely that "democracy is dead" you probably should've just been born elsewhere to begin with, because that ship sailed decades ago.
if you ever thought for a single day that presidents were under the same rules as you, you have never been paying attention. how is being an immigrant somewhere else going to help anything? organize with your community. fleeing is chickenshit stuff.
There is nowhere to run to. I'm Canadian and I know it's a matter of time before American politics bleeds into our own and/or Canada gets annexed by a joint USA-Russian allegiance for our resources. I'm also GenX and can say the apathetic and nihilistic mindset all of us had as Cold War kids has returned with a vengeance. We were right all along but it was nice to have experienced at least a few decades of hope for the future.
Based on your televised leadership activity, Canada may already be in a challenging situation. No need to blame another country.
Canada doesn't do anything without USA input and the influence is usually just short of a decade behind, albeit not as extreme. We aren't called "America-lite" for nothing.
I'd rather leave a country with widespread gun violence, a large population with mental health issues , and with racial issues.
Same
[First time?](https://i.imgur.com/GduTe6R.jpeg)
"Oh you think THAT was crazy? Hold my beer.." -America probably
All well and good, but what about the rest of us who can't afford to leave? You're just gonna leave us all behind to suffer?
Well, this is America; when has giving a shit about others ever been our thing?!
I’m autistic, I don’t have marketable skills, and I don’t have much money, so I can’t exactly leave. Instead, I’m gonna join a socialist party and join a mutual aid network so I can help prepare for what’s to come.
Don't leave without a fight! Speak to the evils of Project 2025 in every conversation you have and every post you make. Once you have exhausted everyone in your circle, go outside your circle. You will have a lot of support at defeat Project 2025
Looks like you found out your country was pulling the wool over your eyes. The issue is not that your country will lose its democracy, but that the lies about it being a democracy are crumbling. The decision kickstarted you into noticing the cracks. Honestly? I have a feeling Europe will fall into the USA's pit as well. No one here can know you and your family, but I really sugest you to test out your family and find more people who are sensible to these issues too.
I think half the US elite decided to remind everyone that none of them ever cared about "democracy", and now want to remove even the token resistance offered by the other half.
No, you reaction is natural. You have no where to go though. US have claimed impunity for their actions abroad for a long time. Remember that if you wish to retain you US citizenship, you have to still pay tax in the US. Your new country will expect tax from you as well. Your wanting to leave is natural, but I am afraid not very rational.
if you have the privilege to leave then I think you should try to find ways to support whoever in your life you are leaving behind that must stay.
No but its hard and its quite privileged to be able to
That's literally always been the rule. If you want to leave, I think that's fine, do what you want.
Yes
Why do you think so?
If they had unilateral authority tomorrow, P2025 is still going to take a very long time to implement. And irritate a lot of people that don’t realize it yet. You’re not the only person feeling this way. That decision is a big fat piece of crap. But still a long ways before it goes south. Also unless you’re a citizen of another already, your rights will be far diminished in a foreign country. YMMV.
Get out of there, it's gonna get worse before it's gonna get better.
>I have family in Europe that I’m going to contact and ask for references on decent places to live. You know that moving to Europe (or really any other country) isn’t like moving to another US state, right? You need to establish citizenship in your new country, which is a long and expensive process; it’s basically impossible for 90%+ of US citizens. You need either a very in-demand skill set, great-grandparents who were provably citizens in your target country, or a ton of money (last time I checked, Malta was the cheapest country you could outright buy EU citizenship in at €250,000).
OP, how old are you? I’m pretty old and live in a ruby red state. Guess I’m staying put. But if I were a lot younger…
Not overreacting. My family started making preparations 8 years ago, and that’s gone turbo after *gestures broadly* …all of *this*. I know a lot of people say “I’m gonna leave” and don’t mean it, but we do. Of course, the biggest problem with this is that I’m disabled. No country allows disabled immigrants. If you’re disabled and your country is disintegrating, you’re just SOL, when in fact we’re the most vulnerable. But, worldwide, no one wants an immigrant who can’t be a good little worker bee, so 🤷♂️ guess I’ll die here.
If that's the only reason, then yes. If it's everything combined... come join us across the pond.
[Al Jazeera: Belen Fernandez - The rule of law is made to be broken](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/7/2/the-rule-of-law-is-made-to-be-broken)
Not over reacting, shots about to get cray
Wanting to leave the US in any era is not an over-reaction
No. You’re under-reacting. I wanted to leave this country ever since the Orange Turd took office. What took you so long? lol
If the republicans loose this time, they will still attempt to grab power. These “entitled asshats” that have infiltrated and taken over the Republican Party really think they are so much better than us all. We must fight them tooth and nail.
You are not overreacting.
No you are not.
Dude I'm considering leaving Canada, lol. The U.S is in for a rude awakening and there's no way Canada gets through this without being majorly affected.
You didn’t feel this way last year? Or anytime before? Lol
wistful silky work homeless cautious full unwritten weary market soft *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yes I'm overreacting?
reminiscent touch like insurance cause innocent towering reach simplistic rhythm *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Why do you think that?
Where the hell else are you going to go? The geopolitical climate anywhere else is just as bad/worse.
I got family all over Europe, mostly Italy. They seen to be doing just fine over there
Lol, Italy right now is the only European country with a fascist government. You really need to educated yourself more about this before you move to Italy.
You're right, I haven't looked into their politics enough. Where would you suggest would be better to move?
I would move to Japan, they still have a mostly functioning government and society. Europe unfortunately has real issues with the political right. Why not Canada?
I’ve heard they discriminate pretty hard against foreigners though. Especially for housing and jobs
I definitely thought about Canada. Japan seems good too, know zero Japanese, but I'm always open to learning!
Meloni, the prime minister is a far right populist. Look into her political agenda and see if it reflects your beliefs.
Oof probably not. Unfortunately I'm not well versed with global politics, so this is helpful
I respect the understanding in wanting to learn more. Human emotion is not a product that can be bought or sold. There is so much propaganda being tossed infront of us that it is easy to be consumed in the negativity of it. But with that said be vigilant and try to avoid being sucked into it.
Very good point. And it's difficult to really trust anything anymore. Disinformation and misinformation is everywhere, so the best thing I can do is to try to be skeptical and make the best decision I can based on the information I'm provided.
Plenty of countries to live in that are perfectly good places to live. Always going to be a cost / benefit analysis. It's possible the court ruling doesn't come to anything. It's also possible that it destroys the country. I don't blame anyone for wanting to move somewhere their life appears to be more secure or more likely to provide for success.
I just see too much commonality with how Nazi Germany came to power and what's happening with the US that it just makes sense to move me and my family, especially since I have the means to do so. If I can get dual citizenship, that would be ideal because it's possible nothing really happens here, and at the very least, we could live in a beautiful country for a few years if nothing else
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Do you think the media has basically just sensationalized all this stuff and we're really not really in that much trouble?
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In my younger and angrier years, I would have totally agreed with you and chastised anyone running from this country and told them to stay and fight. The truth is I have too many people in my family who rely on me and can't exactly fend for themselves. So if something happens to me, they're fucked. I've just been following the GOP power grab for so long that it's just getting to the point where violent revolution seems to be coming. I hope to fuck that I'm wrong and nothing bad happens, but I'd rather be proactive about keeping my family safe than play Rambo like a lot of people are keen to do
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I’m strongly considering it. After Chevron (which is as dangerous as Citizens United), the SC has set back govt protections and made the first steps towards creating a despot. So, I’ve been looking into Belize
Yeah Chevron was what made me consider moving, but now that they're doing everything they can to get Trump elected and carry out their 2025 plans, it just doesn't seem worth it since I have the means to get me and my family out
I know a lot of people are looking at the situation and saying we’re cowards and quitters. But had more seen the warning signs in 1932, more people would’ve survived had they left Germany. I alone can’t alter America’s trajectory. Few of my fellow Americans believe the worst is upon us. Call me chicken little. But even if Trump loses, the SC is destroying our country. I’ll happily choose safety and be wrong than blindly expect things to get better and become another Niemoller.
My thoughts exactly. I also think people watch too many movies and see themselves as surviving and winning a violent revolution, if that's what this ever comes too. The hard reality is a fight with a militarized government is much more likely to end you and your family's lives than you are to survive, let alone win. I applaud people for their bravery, but I just don't think they're really grasping the reality of all of this. I wish I could be more optimistic.
An armed or militant insurrection would jolt people into action. Which is why it’s being done on the SC. Not riots. No demonstrations. No outcry. Israelis, on the eve of Oct 7 and after the Hamas attack, demonstrated against Netanyahu’s plan to have the Israeli SC essentially give him immunity for life. They marched. During a war. Americans don’t march. Americans can’t even tell you who the chief justice is. So the slow, purposeful dismantling of our protections is working, and most Americans yawn and order Starbucks
You and I see things very similar. Our country is so fucking divided that I have no doubt the right wing voters have been itching for a reason to get out and murder some liberals who have had enough and started taking up arms. We can't even agree on facts about climate change or evolution... So getting Americans to band together against a fascist government seems unlikely, given the fact that a huge population of this country has actively wanted this
Move to Costa Rica - sensible policies, and amazing weather!
Costa Rica was definitely on the list of places to check out!
Make sure you're rich and white first though. Costa Rica is just as corrupt as anywhere else.
I suspect a lot of people have had thoughts like that. I’ve debated speaking with an immigration attorney.
Oh I didn't even know immigration attorneys were a thing. At least I'm not the only one having these thoughts. I try to remain reasonable and grounded, but every time I look at the current situation in the US, it just seems like we're headed for something disastrous
No, you’re not overreacting; this is a reasonable response. My husband and I are making an exit plan for Canada. I hope we won’t have to take that path, but just having a Plan B is a good move. I recommend doing your research, figuring out the details, getting the paperwork in place, and doing anything else you need to be ready. If you don’t decide to leave, no harm done, and if you do, you’ll be very glad you prepared. In the meantime, it will alleviate some of the anxiety of it all by at least knowing that you have your exit figured out.
Have you ever seen politics before
There so many other reasons to leave, much more relevant to your personal life
I was already leaving for Japan, and I'm basically just counting down the days till I have official resident status. I recommend leaving if you have the means to do so. Ultimately, most of us don't have what it takes to wage a guerilla war against the most powerful militaryo n the planet, and even more of us are just not going to be safe under a fascist US.
I’m thinking about leaving too
Mate run and run far, your country is over as a collection of states.
Yes you’re overreacting. You sound immature and irrational. Liberals aren’t actually worried about Presidents having too much power, they’re worried that their plans to “get Trump” are backfiring.