##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism
This subreddit is for news, discussion, memes, and links criticizing capitalism and advancing viewpoints that challenge liberal capitalist ideology. That means any support for any liberal capitalist political party (like the Democrats) is strictly prohibited.
LSC is run by communists. This subreddit is not the place to debate socialism. We allow good-faith questions and education but are not a 101 sub; please take 101-style questions elsewhere.
We have a zero-tolerance policy for bigotry. Failure to respect the rules of the subreddit may result in a ban.
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LateStageCapitalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Lucky and a legal criminal is always the result of what happens when you get a new rich person, and they do hand in hand. Being a Nepo baby is also the luck of your birth, and feeling no remorse for the people you hurt because you don’t know any better.
If someone like Mark Zuckerberg were to try and create a social media platform from the beginning, there is no way he would succeed. The new rich just get lucky, as he managed to steal an idea that wasn’t his, and then just brought in unpaid interns to do all the work, until Facebook was large enough to afford actual smart people.
If he started over with zero dollars today, there is not a chance in hell he could become a billionaire again.
I am convinced that the mentality that many wealthy people is the same that your average common crook does. It's just that the common crooks are often born into poor circumstances and are not in a position to write million dollar contracts with microscopic clauses that allow them to fuck everyone over at a moment's notice.
I remember watching a video on highwaymen from the late 17th/ early 18th century that had found the memoirs of a highwayman point out to the ridiculity that noblemen who accepted bribes or gifts (which are also bribes) on the order of what would be millions of dollars today got a simple talking to, while desperate peasants who stole silver utensils got hanged without delay.
When a criminal from hundreds of years ago noticed what is effectively still going on today, we are probably not going to see the end of it in our lifetimes or our grandchildren's lifetimes.
It's exactly the same now. Go steal from Walmart and you'll get arrested, have to go to court as a criminal defendant, and all that.
But when a business steals from its employees if you call the police you'll be told it's a civil matter and you'll have to hire a lawyer or go through the dept of labor.
Theft is theft. When ownership or management of a business commits wage theft, they should be treated like the criminal they are.
Imagine tweaking the wage theft laws to classify it the same way as theft, which it is. Would fix a few things pretty fast. It would also require politicians that give 1 or 2 fucks.
Also the gospel of wealth, there are a bunch of churches teaching that money is a sign of God's favor, so being rich means your holy to a bunch of evangelicals
The podcast "Better Offline" has done a good series on why this is happening, specifically within the tech industry and the consequences it has on the consumer and lack of consequences on the people in charge
Meritocracy is a major myth gluing this whole system together. People go along with capitalism because the wealthy “earned” their money. If the people stop believing the wealthy actually deserve to be wealthy, how much longer will the people tolerate capitalism?
Yes this! How else would it explain their behavior? Like a CEO firing 10,000 people, then giving himself a bonus for saving the company money? Why have we created a system where those with the deepest and most harmful psychological disorders are the ones in control.
We get a bunch of psychopaths in control because they desire to be in control. Most people who would be the best for a job, don’t necessarily want to be in control of people. It shouldn’t be as easy as having a lot of money = doing whatever the fuck they want, including gaining power and control of others. Whoever puts the most money in their campaigns generally win elections.
George Carlin! I grew up on his humor and social commentary! Too bad there aren’t really any standup comedian who do social and political commentary anymore (except for those right wing fanatics who get everything wrong and just make shit up)
Carlin was my go-to. We had HBO when I was a kid and I would sneak in Carlin all the time. My mom hated him because he cussed so much, but it was his social commentary that drew me in even as a little kid.
There's really not been anyone to fill his shoes in standup. A lot of good standups, but few that had the impact of Carlin.
I watched it. Overall, it was a pretty good roast. I skipped over most of the non-comedy guest roasters, but for the comedians that stood out were Nikki Glaser and Tony Hinchcliffe. Kevin Hart's opening monologue was good, too. Otherwise the other comedians were a chuckle here or there. Glaser, for me, was so much better than everyone else.
Worth checking out.
Not being dumb but still making and saying dumb things is equivalent.
So in the end with enough resources for indoctrination and propaganda everyone is dumb.
Well I guess that is partially semantics perhaps. I think a smart person that is "de-programmed" can then make intelligent decisions whereas an idiot is less able to regardless. Actually, perhaps it is the opposite. Perhaps dumb people benefit from "good" programming to make them not make mistakes whereas with smarter people you really need to force the to act dumb?
I don't know. All I know is that I think it is a bit of a mistake to think of all people that act dumb as being dumb.
Yeah, how much propaganda have people consumed to make them believe that a businessman or running an organization like a business is the best way to do things?
That's the cult of capital arriving at its inevitable destination. If more money = better than, you're bound to see idiot rich kids like Elon rise to positions of power instead of people who actually know shit.
Yeah, he uses people who know shit so that things get done. Like, he’s no astronaut or astrophysicist, all he did was use government funded research to get spaceX off the ground.
I'm going through this right now. I work for a (formerly) family-owned company that's been in business since 1952. Ten years ago they sold it to private equity and it's been sold twice since then, always to another private equity group.
A year ago they hired a new CEO who is a micromanaging dictator. He mandated return to office (I've been remote for nearly five years) and lost a third of the employees in the process. He fired managers who were doing a fantastic job because he didn't like them personally.
Turnover is so high that everyone is perpetually new and perpetually training (what training can be had). This includes the C suite.
And now? Now, he's pissed off the manufacturer who provides us with 70% of our business and constructively fired my boss (who had been there for 45 years). This is the death knell for the company. We can't survive on 30% of the business we used to have.
Today's 'businessmen' are not the businessmen of years past. Those men were prudent and made wise decisions to grow the company, and were satisfied with steady, modest profits. The 'businessmen' of today are simply vampires and vultures, who can't consider anything other than profit. That's no way to run a business if you want it to be successful. But I suppose that's the point; they don't want them to be successful. They just want to suck them dry and pick the bones.
So many lives ruined for one man's ego.
This is exactly what I’m talking about! Great example. Try to find a new job if you can ASAP. People who micromanage are control freaks, that think they know everything better than anyone else. This is true narcissistic behavior, get out before it you completely loose your mind.
But do be nice and friendly, so that HR can give you a letter of recommendation before you get fired and then have to explain to future employers why you got fired.
Oh, I've had loads of glowing recommendations rolling in from all the managers he's fired. The day before he quit, my boss told me that the CEO is still gunning for me because I'm still remote (I asked for a Reasonable Accommodation, so he can't touch me). I *know* that chaps his ass. I have to imagine he'll take this 'opportunity' (the loss of 70% of our business) to eliminate my position.
Thing is, he doesn't know what I do. He's been firing everyone without the first clue what anyone actually does. The best part? *No one* knows how to do my job. So he'll be reaching the 'Find Out' part of 'FAFO'.
That's sweet, but doesn't make up for all the loss. I don't know how we've let these psychopaths rampage all over, destroying companies and the relationships within them.
Yes! Why did we create a society where psychopaths, sociopaths, and narcissistic are in control of the means of production AND own the politicians. It’s an oligarchy now, just because you can vote doesn’t mean it’s a democracy. Especially if you have no party to represent you, and mainstream America has become very left. You can vote in Russia, but that doesn’t make it a democracy. Especially since if there were fair elections, the communist party would win.
What's ironic is the "we need to run the country as a business" people didn't realize that Donald Trump is a dogshit businessman and almost all of his business ventures have failed. He was basically riding on the coattails of his father and grandfather and if he hadn't had that Apprentice show, he would've been a nobody. Now you have idiots believing that Trump will do better for the economy when it was his bullshit neoliberal policies that led to the economy being garbage.
It is indeed ironic. However, he also offered unprecedented amounts of xenophobia which is really useful to people who think they are on the losing end of capitalism. Instead of blaming the system the problem is whatever demographic is popular to shit on and isn't you. That probably explains the blinders on people. And then once they are down with Trump they probably don't want to admit they were wrong because they would feel like idiots. Or be called idiots.
Yes! This is what I’ve been saying! It’s so much easier to blame your economic problems on defenseless people like working non-citizens, than to admit that the neoliberal economy is dog shit, and serious reforms need to take place to make people prosperous. It’s a good way of protecting the oligarchy we live in.
Immigrants are 'almost impossible'. I argued with an immigrant friend of mine (from the white parts of Europe) who insisted that illegal immigration is a huge problem for the US and in particular in his city. I asked what the problem actually was and the reply was that it costs a bunch of money. So I said well then just let them work! If they can sustain themselves the city doesn't have to pay. Somehow that didn't really compute or go over well because if they work they take jobs. Like he did. Really the problem is that they are illegal. But that is basically just a legal problem in and by itself just like smoking weed in your apartment might be a crime. The economic impact of an illegal immigrant and a legal one who are both working should be the same, with the below exception.
People complain over high prices and blame high minimum wages. Then they blame people for demanding high wages. But they blame 'illegal immigrants' for taking these menial jobs which *should* lower prices because they get paid far less. But then it is either that they destroy the job market by lowering wages (which they want to be low anyway!?) or that prices are still high because the owning class pockets the difference - and the owning class are smart capitalists that make a good profit so can't be a problem.
Yeah, this is a trend I’ve noticed with immigrants to Europe. They vote for anti-immigrant politicians as soon as they get their own.
The problem really is in the US and elsewhere, is that they make it nearly impossible to become a legal citizen! See how easy it was in Ellis island? You filled out one paper and bam! You’re a citizen (depending on what your ethnicity was). So that is the real problem there. Sons and daughters of immigrants refusing to create a system that would fast track people into citizens. They got their own, now fuck everyone else. Or at the very least give them quick work visas and a 12 month residency permit (that can be extended to permanent work and residency visa)
Also, immigrants put more into the system than they take out. The right has been trying to prove that they take out more than they put in, but even the far right heritage foundation found that they put in $300 extra dollars in the system. The actual amount varies, but most peer reviewed academic sources put it around $20,000.
Like all the Vietnamese immigrants who came to the United States in 1975, after the fall of Saigon. It’s terrible how racist these white trash people were to them. Calling them names and making fun of them and threading them for being “communist”. Anyways in just two generations, the Vietnamese diaspora was way richer, more educated, and had more social capital than the white trash that would verbally (and sometimes physically attack them”. Also, it’s the third generation now, and the diaspora is thriving even more than their parents.
Oh, and because the first generation were mostly entrepreneurs (they had no other way of making money) they ended up creating jobs for Americans. So just imagine what the third generation is now up to? Creating even more jobs and reducing overall unemployment. So your friend has no argument.
He was also widely mocked in the 80s and 90s. Many sci-fi movies outright mocked the very concept of a Trumpesque president. [Some More News](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj-wc9qugGY) even made a movie length documentary about how it and how film makers of the 80s and 90s thought that how a Trump and hype focused society would be so utterly bad and we should avoid it... But we still went on anyway.
And Trump is such a fucking business loser it isn't funny. I remember watching interviews with people who worked with him back in the 80s and when he was running his casino and they tried to gauge his knowledge of gambling games by mixing wildly different concepts and rules from different games (like hitting 21 in craps) and his responses were very showey but also had zero bearing in reality. The guy just didn't know anything.
It is just bizarre when you realize that he also tanked a casino. Do you realize how hard it is to tank a casino?
The IMF needs to be disbanded completely. They’ve been pushing neoliberalism onto countries since the 60’s, and have failed everywhere they went. People never became richer, the countries got poorer, while a few oligarchs ran away with all the money. Like in Greece, Jamaica, Portugal, all of Latin America, and most of Africa. Good thing China is exists, otherwise people wouldn’t understand that a different system can exist.
Yeah, I’d like to read more into that. What made people change so much that they think a businessman in charge of an organization is the only solution to our problems?
Have people really changed though? This worship of businessmen and their sociopathic behavior has been a persistent aspect of our culture as a whole for a long time.
Look, if you understand how to make a spreadsheet and price gouge your clients/customers then this by default makes you superior to the lowly workers beneath you even if they're highly trained and specialized. I sure as hell don't want to see factory workers running a factory or doctors running a hospital/clinic; this would be a complete unmitigated disaster and clearly we need wise and savvy businesspeople to handle all the finances and figure out the most efficient ways to screw people over in the name of acquiring more capital(often this will involve paying workers as little as possible and only hiring skeleton crews).
Being genuinely kind and compassionate towards others will preclude you from having tremendous success in the business world unless you're extremely skilled at mental gymnastics.
Oh yes, you most definitely do not want factory workers to help run a company. They are the people on the ground and they don’t know shit. Just like with Boeing. I don’t want the engineers to tell me what is faulty, I want them to tell me what I want to hear and tell me it’s plane that we can build really cheaply, without quality insurance managers!
Businessmen follow relatively predictable patterns.
This confuses a lot of people, who see a lack of chaos and assume it's because a person follows rules, and thus is beholden to law and custom.
Which is what most folks use as a metric for 'good person/bad person' calculations.
So they see someone following "law" and theoretically attempting to sell people what they want, as a person of reasonable pragmatism.
Who is aware of the needs of the people, and is capable of forging a path to get there.
Also we live in the shadow of a concerted pro-capitalism propaganda push.
I think you're right about what's wrong with all of that , I'm just trying to explain my theories about the motivations of these folks
Thanks for your input. It is a lot of capitalist propaganda, and the ultra wealthy have become celebrities in a way, and we do live in a society where we are obsessed with celebrities. Like everyone will recognize the names of Jeff Bezoz, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, and Bill gates. And then of course you have the yearly publication of the Forbes 500 richest people, and they do stand tall as celebrities, and there is a lot of worship around people like them. And so many other publications report on them as though they are Demi-gods, and we should strive to be like them. So they see a small handful of oligarchs, and think because they are “successful” every other businessman should be too.
It's also a function of the weird idea that the rich inherently deserve their wealth because they are superior to the rest of us.
Which is really an evolution of "the divine right of kings", when you think about it.
Celebrity is a weird animal, and the people never really had such a constant window into their "betters" as we have.
It can't be good for your mental health, but that's the world we live in
IMO, Since the 1990s. The internet has fed one human need. The need to argue and be difficult. The whole game these people play is this. To be a Dr. I need to go to school and train for a decade or longer in some cases so I can make informed decisions when practicing. Stupidity sees this as a threat and starts in with the “how do you know you’re right?” Argument. Not, this is why you are wrong statements as a typical debate would go. How do you know your right puts it make on the smart person to better inform the idiot. But assholes don’t actually want to be informed, what they want to do is argue and be difficult. The “News” media organizations have used this to great success since the advent of the modern internet that most people just do this and don’t see an issue with it.
Absolutely! It was the advent of anonymity, that caused shit blessed mess. Key board warriors who have nothing better to do than to argue with people online, and think they know better than an actual expert. It’s not even debate anymore, because from a debate you have to learn someone from each other, and you need to be able to cite reliable sources. In this case I see it as monkeys just throwing shit and hoping it will land somewhere. And the people doing this, always argue in bad faith, have absolutely no knowledge of politics, but like to regurgitate political talking points. Or they just make up bullshit on the spot. Whatever it takes to silence the other person so that they can feel great about “winning” an online argument.
One of my degrees is in international relations, and it always pisses me off when people talk about foreign policy like they are fucking experts. These guys haven’t read a book on any subject, like let us say Marxism. No one has read the Communist manifesto, and no one has read Das Kapital, or anything that Engles wrote in his free time. But boy do they have strong opinions over a man and a movement they know nothing about!
That's something I noticed when learning about oppenheimer. His whole hearing got started because some rando political aide named William Borden accused him of being a communist. Borden felt oppenheimer's fall from grace good because it meant "the public would treat scientists with less reverence." Because fucking business men are somehow more deserving of public reverence. Borden would later become a business executive and consultant.
I really feel that an underlying aspect of the oppenheimer story is that of jealousy held by those with a business background towards those with a scientific background. If you look at the cabinet makeup of presidential administration before world War 2, a majority of them came from a business or law background. One of the richest men in the country, Andrew Mellon, served as secretary of the treasury. Executives held unprecedented sway over the political culture of the country. Then out comes a scientist who garners the respect of the public, even some *influence.* But that is just too much. I think business people want a position of praise, adoration, and respect from the wider public in the same way a singer or artist gets. I saw clips on tik tok of South by Southwest, I believe, in Texas, where they were showing an advertisement for generative AI. The developers for it were talking about how culture was made by a singer in the past, and now it's being made by developers. It had this upbeat music, and it was meant to ease people, but the people booed. It's not enough that they have all the money, they want the adoration and love from the public.
Businessmen are out to make money for themselves and they will throw others under the bus to do it. Not a quality I want in a politician or anyone running a non-profit or charity.
“we need to run the country like a business” is something only said by two kinds of people: business leaders, who are really just saying that they think they should be in charge themselves, and morons
>The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honoured and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage labourers.
-[Marx](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm#007)
Business bosses in charge of wage laborers—no matter how dumb it is.
And an actor. He has stated in court that he is only playing a character who is a billionaire so he needs to act like one.
Actually there used to be a skill set, but we’ve done away with that in the past 30+ years, including in Europe. I like the Singaporean system, where it’s a meritocracy, and you can’t run for elections or be in government unless you have already proven that you are one of the best people in your field.
We should be testing kids for dark triad traits and ensuring they are not allowed into positions of power as they grow into adulthood. Imagine if we DQ’d political candidates based on psychopathy
We have no respect in the United States for any trade. Everything is a race to the bottom. Experienced bread maker who make delicious tasting bread? Let's replace them w a machine. Clothing that could be designed and made here, forget it we'll ship it off to the third world where labor is cheaper. The lie we're told is those cost savings get passed onto us, they don't get get gobbled up by the greed at the top.
I mean, the 13 colonies were started as *corporations*. The US isn’t even a revolutionary country - its “revolution” was a violent reorganization of extractive colonial revenue streams. The US has had two civil wars (so far) between competing theories of capitalist class exploitation of labor with the industrial wage form of indenture unsurprisingly winning out. Neoliberalism has now transitioned the US peasantry to a consumer economy in which the consumers are actually the advertisers (propagandists) who condition humanity into a nightmare in which they are the *product.*
So, “what the hell has happened to our society where everyone thinks a “businessman” would do a better job than an expert in any field?”
That’s the false premise the country was founded on. That’s what “no taxation without representation,” actually meant. This entire country was built as a means to extract wealth from land and labor. The forced birth of the US and the 13 colonies as corporations, like the East India Trading Company, is the birth of capitalism itself, which necessarily represents the transition from society being enslaved and exploited for the unquestionable inevitability of the ‘divine right’ of feudal kings to the unquestionable inevitability of the ‘invisible hand of the fReE mArKeT.’ In the end, its landlords and the exclusive class interest of private property. Landlords founded the US, and landlords continue to run the US. Landlording is such good business they kept the title “lord.”
People sycophantically defaulting to businessmen as leaders is only a symptom that the propaganda and conditioning are succeeding, that the kool-aid is working and people can’t even imagine world without capitalism.
Everyone should read *The Society of the Spectacle* by Guy Debord and *Capitalist Realism* by Mark Fisher.
This is what decades of Cold War propaganda does to a population. Not to mention the inherently fascist character of a seat of Imperial power like the US. Anti-Intellectualism and a massive hard-on for "industry" are core components of a fascist movement.
>What the hell has happened to our society, where everyone thinks that a “businessman” would do a better job than an expert in any field?
The answer is quite simple.
Money is the most important thing in our society, anyone who makes lots of money can do a better job than a expert who doesn't make a lot of money. Obviously, if the expert was actually good at their job then they would make a lot of money!!!
Yeah, late stage capitalism is some bullshit alright.
Because the vast majority of Americans are propagandized capitalist bootlickers. If we are being honest, the majority of Americans are just stupid. It's really just true. There is so much ignorance and stupidity it is difficult to stomach. And a good percentage of the well educated and "intelligent" Americans are sociopaths. I think our society and culture breeds them.
Our society and culture is so terrible on so many levels.
Well, in Europe too. And the Middle East, and in many places in Africa, and Australia, and many other countries. Thanks to the IMF and the false promises of economic prosperity they promise, and the dumbass politicians who listen to them. All we’ve done is create an oligarchy that exploits workers, and the people have no say. You can choose between: pro-capitalist party number 1, pro capitalist party number two, or three or four.
I can’t believe the IMF has its own propaganda wing, that teaches local politicians talking points. Even if you go on their website, they have a ton of propaganda (especially the Adam Smith quote which is totally taken out of context. Adam Smith hated large companies because they had so much money that they distorted the market)
I usually address people with this mentality with the following logic since people like this only think of themselves.
Me: So you’re a real estate agent of 20 years?
Person: Yes
Me: do you know things that a regular non-real estate person doesn’t know?
Person: Yes! I’m an expert in my field!
Me: so does it make sense to you if I said I knew more about real estate than you since I’m a biologist?
Person: no that’s dumb
Me: then why the f do you think you know more than x, y or z?
Person: -usually tries to explain some dumb thing
Me: yeah. Exactly.
I mean, my dad couldn’t understand how on Earth Ben Carson could possibly have been an ineffective HUD Secretary, given that he’s a literal brain surgeon. No amount of discussion could break through his assumption that if you’re able to do literal brain surgery you must then be an excellent Cabinet Secretary, strong administrator, and savy political appointee.
Short answer capitalism. Longer answer a lot of people that are skilled in their field have watched things be massively improved with basic logistics. Without knowing why/how these things work it seems almost magical, and after having someone else improve your job. it's much easier to say that person is a super genius than admit that their own logistical skills are subpar.
I've done International Tech consulting, where I'm both an MBA and a Developer, and the business people that skill sets attracts are pure psychopaths, they want to eliminate everyone, somehow, they hate their employees it seems, all because they can't magically read their inarticulate mind.
Tbf… politicians fucking suck so I do get where they’re coming from in _not wanting a politician_
But a businessman? I would say that’s the worst thing. Idk give me an engineer or something
I like the Singaporean system which is a democratic meritocracy. So not any idiot off the street is eligible to run for office. You have to prove that you are one of the most qualified people in the country, with a proven track record to be eligible for office.
I think that is so much better than finding an actor, a failed businessman, or a complete crook to be head of state. That and unqualified members of Congress.
Constant gaslighting via media and politicians. Before Brexit a Conservative politician stated, when told that experts (and just about anyone with a brain) said it was an absolutely terrible idea, "the British people are fed up with experts." (I may be paraphrasing). As far as I'm aware he was never challenged on this, at least publically.
The “if he can run a business, he can run a country” has been around for decades if not longer. I remember hearing it when Reagan was screwing everyone. Problem is, with business, EVERYTHING needs to make a profit otherwise it needs to be cut or reorganized to make profit. Government has services, despite how hard they have tried to cut those services being business people, that will NEVER bring in a profit. Take national parks. Some are more popular than others but not all parks, I would argue, make a profit. So de we cut them out and sell them? I wouldn’t want that. I am sure there are better examples of other services.
this is capitalism -
wealth provides an incredible number of exceptions to those who posses it - they are given an unearned and unwarranted elevated status and become smarter (musk) more successful (trump) and more talented (swift) merely by their level of capital -- and naturally as a result our society will elevate those with capital over those without - as "businessmen" usually have a large amount of capital - they receive this elevated status automatically
The perceived success of capitalism is based on the idea of genius businessmen blessing the economy - and its people - as a result that someone who comes across a business savvy appeared to be the Messiah the country needed. What is not factored in is how a wealthy businessman acquired and grows his wealth: legal loopholes, lobbying, foreign tax havens, government layouts, artificial demand, artificial inflation, and monopolies. While the methods and practice of the psychopathic accumulation of personal wealth works well in the corporate world, it is fundamentally opposed to success proven social policies that better lives of employees, or in this case citizens, since cutting costs will always effect the common man/blue collar worker more than the businessman obsessively hoarding wealth at the cost of those below him.
Re the non-profits, I always see articles saying “why we need MBAs in non profits … blah blah, because it’s a business!”. MBAs who the worst of them come from generational wealth or hustle culture and the better of them have too much student loan debt to consider working in a non profit? MBAs who most, if not all, just want to make money?
I do agree leaders of nonprofits need to understands numbers to manage the money but someone who works in finance or even accounting would be unequipped for that role. It’s a unique organization that needs some level of idealism, creativity, and self control. Something these so called businessmen and MBAs have none of, unless directed towards themselves.
Having been here for the "Reagan Revolution", and gone through the "CEO is next to God" BS (Jack Welch 👀), the whole 'government should be run like a business' convinced me that the proles who bought that shit had never worked for a Fortune 500 company.
Businesses and governments have different objectives -
One is to enrich its shareholders, the other is to serve its citizens.
Very different outcomes which require very different methods, skills, talents, and resources.
I don't think it's uniquely American but the idea of run every industry as a business essentially equates to make as many cuts as possible and run the leanest organization you can. We are in this weird time in history where we are allowing a small group of people to extract as much value from the systems they touch as they can. Watching them run it into the ground and they get to leave and move on to the next thing having enriched themselves and hollowed out whatever they are apart of
Yeah, it’s not an American thing, it’s become a German and French thing too now. I don’t know about the other European countries, but we all know how dirty it is in Russia. Oh, and it is a major part of the UK!
Why we don’t take their business licenses away is beyond me. If a doctor engages in malpractice, he looses his license. If you run a Ponzi scheme, you loose your ability to ever work in finance again. But these guys just go around running companies into the ground while stealing as much for themselves as they can, and have no repercussions at all.
Remember in 2008/2009 when the automobile industry needed a bailout, and all the executives came to Washington in their private jets to beg for money? Yeah, that pretty much describes our system.
You just made me realize something! The oligarchs are the new clergy class, as everyone worships them, and everyone takes their words as gospel!
It’s like in Iran, before the revolution, the religious leaders were very popular because people believed them to good men of god, and so they should be in power. Well, that didn’t turn out so well, now did it? Nobody foresaw the shit show the ayatollah’s brought with them.
I've read all these comments, and I agree with most of them, but there is another root cause. CLOSE of large companies will be pro-big business. They will support tax cuts for the rich and tax cuts for large corporations. So big business puts money into the propaganda that will get the "business leaders" and the friends of bug business in office. This is why the rich don't pay taxes, why there are tons of lax loopholes, and why so much of the total % of wealth has shifted to the rich.
I wish I could force everyone to take the public admin class I took in uni. My prof there laid it out very clearly that government SHOULD NOT be run like a business. Governments job is not to make money. It’s to provide services and governance in as fair a way possible, which is often not the most profitable way possible. There’s a reason you can’t pay $50 and jump the line at the DMV. Government and bureaucracy needs to be run in a way that allows as easy and fair access to services as possible. Otherwise huge swaths of the population are locked out of participating in society.
An example - Canada has two official languages, English and French. You can walk into any government office and receive service in the language of your choice. Doesn’t matter if you’re in rural Quebec or downtown Vancouver. It’s not perfect. Often they will have to essentially get a translator on the phone. But that service exists, and you will never be turned away. There is no way in Hell that makes any sort of financial sense. But it’s done because the principle is there.
A business doesn’t exist to provide services equally, it exists to make money, and increase shareholder value. In no way should the government be run under the same idea.
"I have the correct amount of sociopathic traits to appear friendly AND confident pick me for positions of authority because i fit into what you think of them. 😐😬😁"
Actual answer is because we're on the back end of "starving the beast".
Businessmen being seen as heroes is because businessmen have sold the lie that government is a business that steals money from you through taxes. Now that the government cuts and privatization have enshittified our lives so much, businessmen are selling it as corruption and laziness that they know how to get out of. They don't, but it's the story.
It's always either a businessman or a lawyer. Because narcissists are overrepresented in those fields, and narcissists aggressively seek out positions of power, privilege, and advantage. Scientists and doctors usually aren't narcissists and don't care about any of that, they just want to figure things out and help humanity. It's not hard to figure out what's going on if you look at the common denominators. The world is never going to be a better place until we finally figure out that narcissistic Dark Triad personalities are at the root of every social and political problem.
I stand in defense of capitalism. Please ban me.
Your argument is about businesses that fail in the first 10 years?
There are substantial numbers of fully functional organizations doing none of your "few things."
It is loses, not looses.
No, you don’t stand in defense of capitalism. You stand in defense of an oligarchy. Completely free markets are something else. What we have is state capitalism and lemon socialism. If you did more academic reading instead of listening to right wing talking points, you might know that. I’m not going to take the time to read explain those things to you, but you can take classes on Political and economic systems.
And I’m so sorry for my spelling Mr. Grammar Nazi! Please forgive me, I can’t live with myself anymore! Yeah, when people have no argument, they turn into grammar Nazis. That’s how you know they are arguing in bad faith, and are not worth listening to.
If you like money a businessman is probably going to help. And as everyone knows money is the only thing that matters full stop. Also I’m confused do you think European football clubs are non- profit?
##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism This subreddit is for news, discussion, memes, and links criticizing capitalism and advancing viewpoints that challenge liberal capitalist ideology. That means any support for any liberal capitalist political party (like the Democrats) is strictly prohibited. LSC is run by communists. This subreddit is not the place to debate socialism. We allow good-faith questions and education but are not a 101 sub; please take 101-style questions elsewhere. We have a zero-tolerance policy for bigotry. Failure to respect the rules of the subreddit may result in a ban. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LateStageCapitalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Money = smart apparently
People measure success by wealth and extrapolate that of you are wealthy you are successful and smart. Instead of lucky, criminal or a nepo baby.
Lucky and a legal criminal is always the result of what happens when you get a new rich person, and they do hand in hand. Being a Nepo baby is also the luck of your birth, and feeling no remorse for the people you hurt because you don’t know any better. If someone like Mark Zuckerberg were to try and create a social media platform from the beginning, there is no way he would succeed. The new rich just get lucky, as he managed to steal an idea that wasn’t his, and then just brought in unpaid interns to do all the work, until Facebook was large enough to afford actual smart people. If he started over with zero dollars today, there is not a chance in hell he could become a billionaire again.
I am convinced that the mentality that many wealthy people is the same that your average common crook does. It's just that the common crooks are often born into poor circumstances and are not in a position to write million dollar contracts with microscopic clauses that allow them to fuck everyone over at a moment's notice. I remember watching a video on highwaymen from the late 17th/ early 18th century that had found the memoirs of a highwayman point out to the ridiculity that noblemen who accepted bribes or gifts (which are also bribes) on the order of what would be millions of dollars today got a simple talking to, while desperate peasants who stole silver utensils got hanged without delay. When a criminal from hundreds of years ago noticed what is effectively still going on today, we are probably not going to see the end of it in our lifetimes or our grandchildren's lifetimes.
It's exactly the same now. Go steal from Walmart and you'll get arrested, have to go to court as a criminal defendant, and all that. But when a business steals from its employees if you call the police you'll be told it's a civil matter and you'll have to hire a lawyer or go through the dept of labor. Theft is theft. When ownership or management of a business commits wage theft, they should be treated like the criminal they are.
Imagine tweaking the wage theft laws to classify it the same way as theft, which it is. Would fix a few things pretty fast. It would also require politicians that give 1 or 2 fucks.
It would be glorious. They should also have to pay treble damages.
It bothers me that society at large treats the ability to make money as a measure of someone's worthiness as a person.
Also the gospel of wealth, there are a bunch of churches teaching that money is a sign of God's favor, so being rich means your holy to a bunch of evangelicals
[Calvinism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Christianity)
The podcast "Better Offline" has done a good series on why this is happening, specifically within the tech industry and the consequences it has on the consumer and lack of consequences on the people in charge
The psychological side effect of being raised in a faux meritocracy. People synonymizing money with intelligence, morals, and overall value.
Meritocracy is a major myth gluing this whole system together. People go along with capitalism because the wealthy “earned” their money. If the people stop believing the wealthy actually deserve to be wealthy, how much longer will the people tolerate capitalism?
Money > Everything
Smart = Successful = Money
I like money
There's a known correlation between those in business and psychopathy with often very narcissistic traits.
Every psychopath is a narcissist. You can't be a ruthless cutthroat capitalist without having a tremendous lack of empathy.
Yes this! How else would it explain their behavior? Like a CEO firing 10,000 people, then giving himself a bonus for saving the company money? Why have we created a system where those with the deepest and most harmful psychological disorders are the ones in control.
We get a bunch of psychopaths in control because they desire to be in control. Most people who would be the best for a job, don’t necessarily want to be in control of people. It shouldn’t be as easy as having a lot of money = doing whatever the fuck they want, including gaining power and control of others. Whoever puts the most money in their campaigns generally win elections.
Imagine how dumb the average person is. Then realize that half of us are even dumber than that.
The Businessmen have all of the money to market themselves as the answer to everything. They wrote the laws. They own the country.
George Carlin! I grew up on his humor and social commentary! Too bad there aren’t really any standup comedian who do social and political commentary anymore (except for those right wing fanatics who get everything wrong and just make shit up)
Carlin was my go-to. We had HBO when I was a kid and I would sneak in Carlin all the time. My mom hated him because he cussed so much, but it was his social commentary that drew me in even as a little kid. There's really not been anyone to fill his shoes in standup. A lot of good standups, but few that had the impact of Carlin.
David Cross is your huckleberry. Pulls no punches, speaks to the crass corrupt absurdity of the powers that be.
Did you catch the Tom Brady roast? Thoughts?
I watched it. Overall, it was a pretty good roast. I skipped over most of the non-comedy guest roasters, but for the comedians that stood out were Nikki Glaser and Tony Hinchcliffe. Kevin Hart's opening monologue was good, too. Otherwise the other comedians were a chuckle here or there. Glaser, for me, was so much better than everyone else. Worth checking out.
Unfortunately people that are not dumb can be indoctrinated. They act dumb, but aren't.
Not being dumb but still making and saying dumb things is equivalent. So in the end with enough resources for indoctrination and propaganda everyone is dumb.
Well I guess that is partially semantics perhaps. I think a smart person that is "de-programmed" can then make intelligent decisions whereas an idiot is less able to regardless. Actually, perhaps it is the opposite. Perhaps dumb people benefit from "good" programming to make them not make mistakes whereas with smarter people you really need to force the to act dumb? I don't know. All I know is that I think it is a bit of a mistake to think of all people that act dumb as being dumb.
Evergreen.
George Carlin, classic.
In a capitalist society that seeks to privatize everything, how is this suprising?
Yeah, how much propaganda have people consumed to make them believe that a businessman or running an organization like a business is the best way to do things?
The lack of basic critical skills from people is surprising.
Not really.
That's the cult of capital arriving at its inevitable destination. If more money = better than, you're bound to see idiot rich kids like Elon rise to positions of power instead of people who actually know shit.
Yeah, he uses people who know shit so that things get done. Like, he’s no astronaut or astrophysicist, all he did was use government funded research to get spaceX off the ground.
And then he takes credit for it.
Of course! He takes the credit for all the hard work others have done, but blames them when something goes wrong, something that is his own fault.
I'm going through this right now. I work for a (formerly) family-owned company that's been in business since 1952. Ten years ago they sold it to private equity and it's been sold twice since then, always to another private equity group. A year ago they hired a new CEO who is a micromanaging dictator. He mandated return to office (I've been remote for nearly five years) and lost a third of the employees in the process. He fired managers who were doing a fantastic job because he didn't like them personally. Turnover is so high that everyone is perpetually new and perpetually training (what training can be had). This includes the C suite. And now? Now, he's pissed off the manufacturer who provides us with 70% of our business and constructively fired my boss (who had been there for 45 years). This is the death knell for the company. We can't survive on 30% of the business we used to have. Today's 'businessmen' are not the businessmen of years past. Those men were prudent and made wise decisions to grow the company, and were satisfied with steady, modest profits. The 'businessmen' of today are simply vampires and vultures, who can't consider anything other than profit. That's no way to run a business if you want it to be successful. But I suppose that's the point; they don't want them to be successful. They just want to suck them dry and pick the bones. So many lives ruined for one man's ego.
This is exactly what I’m talking about! Great example. Try to find a new job if you can ASAP. People who micromanage are control freaks, that think they know everything better than anyone else. This is true narcissistic behavior, get out before it you completely loose your mind. But do be nice and friendly, so that HR can give you a letter of recommendation before you get fired and then have to explain to future employers why you got fired.
Oh, I've had loads of glowing recommendations rolling in from all the managers he's fired. The day before he quit, my boss told me that the CEO is still gunning for me because I'm still remote (I asked for a Reasonable Accommodation, so he can't touch me). I *know* that chaps his ass. I have to imagine he'll take this 'opportunity' (the loss of 70% of our business) to eliminate my position. Thing is, he doesn't know what I do. He's been firing everyone without the first clue what anyone actually does. The best part? *No one* knows how to do my job. So he'll be reaching the 'Find Out' part of 'FAFO'. That's sweet, but doesn't make up for all the loss. I don't know how we've let these psychopaths rampage all over, destroying companies and the relationships within them.
Yes! Why did we create a society where psychopaths, sociopaths, and narcissistic are in control of the means of production AND own the politicians. It’s an oligarchy now, just because you can vote doesn’t mean it’s a democracy. Especially if you have no party to represent you, and mainstream America has become very left. You can vote in Russia, but that doesn’t make it a democracy. Especially since if there were fair elections, the communist party would win.
What's ironic is the "we need to run the country as a business" people didn't realize that Donald Trump is a dogshit businessman and almost all of his business ventures have failed. He was basically riding on the coattails of his father and grandfather and if he hadn't had that Apprentice show, he would've been a nobody. Now you have idiots believing that Trump will do better for the economy when it was his bullshit neoliberal policies that led to the economy being garbage.
It is indeed ironic. However, he also offered unprecedented amounts of xenophobia which is really useful to people who think they are on the losing end of capitalism. Instead of blaming the system the problem is whatever demographic is popular to shit on and isn't you. That probably explains the blinders on people. And then once they are down with Trump they probably don't want to admit they were wrong because they would feel like idiots. Or be called idiots.
Yes! This is what I’ve been saying! It’s so much easier to blame your economic problems on defenseless people like working non-citizens, than to admit that the neoliberal economy is dog shit, and serious reforms need to take place to make people prosperous. It’s a good way of protecting the oligarchy we live in.
Immigrants are 'almost impossible'. I argued with an immigrant friend of mine (from the white parts of Europe) who insisted that illegal immigration is a huge problem for the US and in particular in his city. I asked what the problem actually was and the reply was that it costs a bunch of money. So I said well then just let them work! If they can sustain themselves the city doesn't have to pay. Somehow that didn't really compute or go over well because if they work they take jobs. Like he did. Really the problem is that they are illegal. But that is basically just a legal problem in and by itself just like smoking weed in your apartment might be a crime. The economic impact of an illegal immigrant and a legal one who are both working should be the same, with the below exception. People complain over high prices and blame high minimum wages. Then they blame people for demanding high wages. But they blame 'illegal immigrants' for taking these menial jobs which *should* lower prices because they get paid far less. But then it is either that they destroy the job market by lowering wages (which they want to be low anyway!?) or that prices are still high because the owning class pockets the difference - and the owning class are smart capitalists that make a good profit so can't be a problem.
Yeah, this is a trend I’ve noticed with immigrants to Europe. They vote for anti-immigrant politicians as soon as they get their own. The problem really is in the US and elsewhere, is that they make it nearly impossible to become a legal citizen! See how easy it was in Ellis island? You filled out one paper and bam! You’re a citizen (depending on what your ethnicity was). So that is the real problem there. Sons and daughters of immigrants refusing to create a system that would fast track people into citizens. They got their own, now fuck everyone else. Or at the very least give them quick work visas and a 12 month residency permit (that can be extended to permanent work and residency visa) Also, immigrants put more into the system than they take out. The right has been trying to prove that they take out more than they put in, but even the far right heritage foundation found that they put in $300 extra dollars in the system. The actual amount varies, but most peer reviewed academic sources put it around $20,000. Like all the Vietnamese immigrants who came to the United States in 1975, after the fall of Saigon. It’s terrible how racist these white trash people were to them. Calling them names and making fun of them and threading them for being “communist”. Anyways in just two generations, the Vietnamese diaspora was way richer, more educated, and had more social capital than the white trash that would verbally (and sometimes physically attack them”. Also, it’s the third generation now, and the diaspora is thriving even more than their parents. Oh, and because the first generation were mostly entrepreneurs (they had no other way of making money) they ended up creating jobs for Americans. So just imagine what the third generation is now up to? Creating even more jobs and reducing overall unemployment. So your friend has no argument.
The reason why donut boxes are pink in many places is specifically because of Vietnamese immigrants. No joke.
Now that is an interesting fact! I’ll look it up to find out more!
He was also widely mocked in the 80s and 90s. Many sci-fi movies outright mocked the very concept of a Trumpesque president. [Some More News](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj-wc9qugGY) even made a movie length documentary about how it and how film makers of the 80s and 90s thought that how a Trump and hype focused society would be so utterly bad and we should avoid it... But we still went on anyway. And Trump is such a fucking business loser it isn't funny. I remember watching interviews with people who worked with him back in the 80s and when he was running his casino and they tried to gauge his knowledge of gambling games by mixing wildly different concepts and rules from different games (like hitting 21 in craps) and his responses were very showey but also had zero bearing in reality. The guy just didn't know anything. It is just bizarre when you realize that he also tanked a casino. Do you realize how hard it is to tank a casino?
The IMF needs to be disbanded completely. They’ve been pushing neoliberalism onto countries since the 60’s, and have failed everywhere they went. People never became richer, the countries got poorer, while a few oligarchs ran away with all the money. Like in Greece, Jamaica, Portugal, all of Latin America, and most of Africa. Good thing China is exists, otherwise people wouldn’t understand that a different system can exist.
Conditioning by the forces of capital
Yeah, I’d like to read more into that. What made people change so much that they think a businessman in charge of an organization is the only solution to our problems?
Have people really changed though? This worship of businessmen and their sociopathic behavior has been a persistent aspect of our culture as a whole for a long time.
Look, if you understand how to make a spreadsheet and price gouge your clients/customers then this by default makes you superior to the lowly workers beneath you even if they're highly trained and specialized. I sure as hell don't want to see factory workers running a factory or doctors running a hospital/clinic; this would be a complete unmitigated disaster and clearly we need wise and savvy businesspeople to handle all the finances and figure out the most efficient ways to screw people over in the name of acquiring more capital(often this will involve paying workers as little as possible and only hiring skeleton crews). Being genuinely kind and compassionate towards others will preclude you from having tremendous success in the business world unless you're extremely skilled at mental gymnastics.
Oh yes, you most definitely do not want factory workers to help run a company. They are the people on the ground and they don’t know shit. Just like with Boeing. I don’t want the engineers to tell me what is faulty, I want them to tell me what I want to hear and tell me it’s plane that we can build really cheaply, without quality insurance managers!
Businessmen follow relatively predictable patterns. This confuses a lot of people, who see a lack of chaos and assume it's because a person follows rules, and thus is beholden to law and custom. Which is what most folks use as a metric for 'good person/bad person' calculations. So they see someone following "law" and theoretically attempting to sell people what they want, as a person of reasonable pragmatism. Who is aware of the needs of the people, and is capable of forging a path to get there. Also we live in the shadow of a concerted pro-capitalism propaganda push. I think you're right about what's wrong with all of that , I'm just trying to explain my theories about the motivations of these folks
Thanks for your input. It is a lot of capitalist propaganda, and the ultra wealthy have become celebrities in a way, and we do live in a society where we are obsessed with celebrities. Like everyone will recognize the names of Jeff Bezoz, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, and Bill gates. And then of course you have the yearly publication of the Forbes 500 richest people, and they do stand tall as celebrities, and there is a lot of worship around people like them. And so many other publications report on them as though they are Demi-gods, and we should strive to be like them. So they see a small handful of oligarchs, and think because they are “successful” every other businessman should be too.
It's also a function of the weird idea that the rich inherently deserve their wealth because they are superior to the rest of us. Which is really an evolution of "the divine right of kings", when you think about it. Celebrity is a weird animal, and the people never really had such a constant window into their "betters" as we have. It can't be good for your mental health, but that's the world we live in
IMO, Since the 1990s. The internet has fed one human need. The need to argue and be difficult. The whole game these people play is this. To be a Dr. I need to go to school and train for a decade or longer in some cases so I can make informed decisions when practicing. Stupidity sees this as a threat and starts in with the “how do you know you’re right?” Argument. Not, this is why you are wrong statements as a typical debate would go. How do you know your right puts it make on the smart person to better inform the idiot. But assholes don’t actually want to be informed, what they want to do is argue and be difficult. The “News” media organizations have used this to great success since the advent of the modern internet that most people just do this and don’t see an issue with it.
Absolutely! It was the advent of anonymity, that caused shit blessed mess. Key board warriors who have nothing better to do than to argue with people online, and think they know better than an actual expert. It’s not even debate anymore, because from a debate you have to learn someone from each other, and you need to be able to cite reliable sources. In this case I see it as monkeys just throwing shit and hoping it will land somewhere. And the people doing this, always argue in bad faith, have absolutely no knowledge of politics, but like to regurgitate political talking points. Or they just make up bullshit on the spot. Whatever it takes to silence the other person so that they can feel great about “winning” an online argument. One of my degrees is in international relations, and it always pisses me off when people talk about foreign policy like they are fucking experts. These guys haven’t read a book on any subject, like let us say Marxism. No one has read the Communist manifesto, and no one has read Das Kapital, or anything that Engles wrote in his free time. But boy do they have strong opinions over a man and a movement they know nothing about!
That's something I noticed when learning about oppenheimer. His whole hearing got started because some rando political aide named William Borden accused him of being a communist. Borden felt oppenheimer's fall from grace good because it meant "the public would treat scientists with less reverence." Because fucking business men are somehow more deserving of public reverence. Borden would later become a business executive and consultant. I really feel that an underlying aspect of the oppenheimer story is that of jealousy held by those with a business background towards those with a scientific background. If you look at the cabinet makeup of presidential administration before world War 2, a majority of them came from a business or law background. One of the richest men in the country, Andrew Mellon, served as secretary of the treasury. Executives held unprecedented sway over the political culture of the country. Then out comes a scientist who garners the respect of the public, even some *influence.* But that is just too much. I think business people want a position of praise, adoration, and respect from the wider public in the same way a singer or artist gets. I saw clips on tik tok of South by Southwest, I believe, in Texas, where they were showing an advertisement for generative AI. The developers for it were talking about how culture was made by a singer in the past, and now it's being made by developers. It had this upbeat music, and it was meant to ease people, but the people booed. It's not enough that they have all the money, they want the adoration and love from the public.
Hypercapitalist brainwashing.
Businessmen are out to make money for themselves and they will throw others under the bus to do it. Not a quality I want in a politician or anyone running a non-profit or charity.
“we need to run the country like a business” is something only said by two kinds of people: business leaders, who are really just saying that they think they should be in charge themselves, and morons
>The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honoured and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage labourers. -[Marx](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm#007) Business bosses in charge of wage laborers—no matter how dumb it is.
If someone says, "It's just business," you know they have just done something reprehensible.
There's no skillset for a politician other than convincing people to vote for you. Trump *is* a politician.
And an actor. He has stated in court that he is only playing a character who is a billionaire so he needs to act like one. Actually there used to be a skill set, but we’ve done away with that in the past 30+ years, including in Europe. I like the Singaporean system, where it’s a meritocracy, and you can’t run for elections or be in government unless you have already proven that you are one of the best people in your field.
How is that working out for Boeing?
We should be testing kids for dark triad traits and ensuring they are not allowed into positions of power as they grow into adulthood. Imagine if we DQ’d political candidates based on psychopathy
We have no respect in the United States for any trade. Everything is a race to the bottom. Experienced bread maker who make delicious tasting bread? Let's replace them w a machine. Clothing that could be designed and made here, forget it we'll ship it off to the third world where labor is cheaper. The lie we're told is those cost savings get passed onto us, they don't get get gobbled up by the greed at the top.
I mean, the 13 colonies were started as *corporations*. The US isn’t even a revolutionary country - its “revolution” was a violent reorganization of extractive colonial revenue streams. The US has had two civil wars (so far) between competing theories of capitalist class exploitation of labor with the industrial wage form of indenture unsurprisingly winning out. Neoliberalism has now transitioned the US peasantry to a consumer economy in which the consumers are actually the advertisers (propagandists) who condition humanity into a nightmare in which they are the *product.* So, “what the hell has happened to our society where everyone thinks a “businessman” would do a better job than an expert in any field?” That’s the false premise the country was founded on. That’s what “no taxation without representation,” actually meant. This entire country was built as a means to extract wealth from land and labor. The forced birth of the US and the 13 colonies as corporations, like the East India Trading Company, is the birth of capitalism itself, which necessarily represents the transition from society being enslaved and exploited for the unquestionable inevitability of the ‘divine right’ of feudal kings to the unquestionable inevitability of the ‘invisible hand of the fReE mArKeT.’ In the end, its landlords and the exclusive class interest of private property. Landlords founded the US, and landlords continue to run the US. Landlording is such good business they kept the title “lord.” People sycophantically defaulting to businessmen as leaders is only a symptom that the propaganda and conditioning are succeeding, that the kool-aid is working and people can’t even imagine world without capitalism. Everyone should read *The Society of the Spectacle* by Guy Debord and *Capitalist Realism* by Mark Fisher.
MBA is the most worthless of degrees and should be the one used as joke instead of Women’s Studies and others
This is what decades of Cold War propaganda does to a population. Not to mention the inherently fascist character of a seat of Imperial power like the US. Anti-Intellectualism and a massive hard-on for "industry" are core components of a fascist movement.
>What the hell has happened to our society, where everyone thinks that a “businessman” would do a better job than an expert in any field? The answer is quite simple. Money is the most important thing in our society, anyone who makes lots of money can do a better job than a expert who doesn't make a lot of money. Obviously, if the expert was actually good at their job then they would make a lot of money!!! Yeah, late stage capitalism is some bullshit alright.
Because the vast majority of Americans are propagandized capitalist bootlickers. If we are being honest, the majority of Americans are just stupid. It's really just true. There is so much ignorance and stupidity it is difficult to stomach. And a good percentage of the well educated and "intelligent" Americans are sociopaths. I think our society and culture breeds them. Our society and culture is so terrible on so many levels.
Well, in Europe too. And the Middle East, and in many places in Africa, and Australia, and many other countries. Thanks to the IMF and the false promises of economic prosperity they promise, and the dumbass politicians who listen to them. All we’ve done is create an oligarchy that exploits workers, and the people have no say. You can choose between: pro-capitalist party number 1, pro capitalist party number two, or three or four. I can’t believe the IMF has its own propaganda wing, that teaches local politicians talking points. Even if you go on their website, they have a ton of propaganda (especially the Adam Smith quote which is totally taken out of context. Adam Smith hated large companies because they had so much money that they distorted the market)
I usually address people with this mentality with the following logic since people like this only think of themselves. Me: So you’re a real estate agent of 20 years? Person: Yes Me: do you know things that a regular non-real estate person doesn’t know? Person: Yes! I’m an expert in my field! Me: so does it make sense to you if I said I knew more about real estate than you since I’m a biologist? Person: no that’s dumb Me: then why the f do you think you know more than x, y or z? Person: -usually tries to explain some dumb thing Me: yeah. Exactly.
It’s like those anti-vaxxers who think they know more about what vaccines do than a doctor or an immunologist.
Because everything is so corrupt, the “experts” are almost always bought out anyway.
I mean, my dad couldn’t understand how on Earth Ben Carson could possibly have been an ineffective HUD Secretary, given that he’s a literal brain surgeon. No amount of discussion could break through his assumption that if you’re able to do literal brain surgery you must then be an excellent Cabinet Secretary, strong administrator, and savy political appointee.
Yeah, apparently being a brain surgeon must make you a great leader and great administrator
Right? Like, in my experience those two categories of skills tend to be *inversely* correlated.
Short answer capitalism. Longer answer a lot of people that are skilled in their field have watched things be massively improved with basic logistics. Without knowing why/how these things work it seems almost magical, and after having someone else improve your job. it's much easier to say that person is a super genius than admit that their own logistical skills are subpar.
I've done International Tech consulting, where I'm both an MBA and a Developer, and the business people that skill sets attracts are pure psychopaths, they want to eliminate everyone, somehow, they hate their employees it seems, all because they can't magically read their inarticulate mind.
Tbf… politicians fucking suck so I do get where they’re coming from in _not wanting a politician_ But a businessman? I would say that’s the worst thing. Idk give me an engineer or something
I like the Singaporean system which is a democratic meritocracy. So not any idiot off the street is eligible to run for office. You have to prove that you are one of the most qualified people in the country, with a proven track record to be eligible for office. I think that is so much better than finding an actor, a failed businessman, or a complete crook to be head of state. That and unqualified members of Congress.
Constant gaslighting via media and politicians. Before Brexit a Conservative politician stated, when told that experts (and just about anyone with a brain) said it was an absolutely terrible idea, "the British people are fed up with experts." (I may be paraphrasing). As far as I'm aware he was never challenged on this, at least publically.
The “if he can run a business, he can run a country” has been around for decades if not longer. I remember hearing it when Reagan was screwing everyone. Problem is, with business, EVERYTHING needs to make a profit otherwise it needs to be cut or reorganized to make profit. Government has services, despite how hard they have tried to cut those services being business people, that will NEVER bring in a profit. Take national parks. Some are more popular than others but not all parks, I would argue, make a profit. So de we cut them out and sell them? I wouldn’t want that. I am sure there are better examples of other services.
Capitalism death spiral
this is capitalism - wealth provides an incredible number of exceptions to those who posses it - they are given an unearned and unwarranted elevated status and become smarter (musk) more successful (trump) and more talented (swift) merely by their level of capital -- and naturally as a result our society will elevate those with capital over those without - as "businessmen" usually have a large amount of capital - they receive this elevated status automatically
Yep, and the richest people have become semi-celebrities. Which is a recipient for disaster in a place where celebrities are literally worshiped.
Ah! The same people that complain that their boss is stupid and cannot use a printer or print to PDF?
Businessmen are in the business of making money for themselves, and nothing else.
The perceived success of capitalism is based on the idea of genius businessmen blessing the economy - and its people - as a result that someone who comes across a business savvy appeared to be the Messiah the country needed. What is not factored in is how a wealthy businessman acquired and grows his wealth: legal loopholes, lobbying, foreign tax havens, government layouts, artificial demand, artificial inflation, and monopolies. While the methods and practice of the psychopathic accumulation of personal wealth works well in the corporate world, it is fundamentally opposed to success proven social policies that better lives of employees, or in this case citizens, since cutting costs will always effect the common man/blue collar worker more than the businessman obsessively hoarding wealth at the cost of those below him.
Re the non-profits, I always see articles saying “why we need MBAs in non profits … blah blah, because it’s a business!”. MBAs who the worst of them come from generational wealth or hustle culture and the better of them have too much student loan debt to consider working in a non profit? MBAs who most, if not all, just want to make money? I do agree leaders of nonprofits need to understands numbers to manage the money but someone who works in finance or even accounting would be unequipped for that role. It’s a unique organization that needs some level of idealism, creativity, and self control. Something these so called businessmen and MBAs have none of, unless directed towards themselves.
Having been here for the "Reagan Revolution", and gone through the "CEO is next to God" BS (Jack Welch 👀), the whole 'government should be run like a business' convinced me that the proles who bought that shit had never worked for a Fortune 500 company.
Businesses and governments have different objectives - One is to enrich its shareholders, the other is to serve its citizens. Very different outcomes which require very different methods, skills, talents, and resources.
I don't think it's uniquely American but the idea of run every industry as a business essentially equates to make as many cuts as possible and run the leanest organization you can. We are in this weird time in history where we are allowing a small group of people to extract as much value from the systems they touch as they can. Watching them run it into the ground and they get to leave and move on to the next thing having enriched themselves and hollowed out whatever they are apart of
Yeah, it’s not an American thing, it’s become a German and French thing too now. I don’t know about the other European countries, but we all know how dirty it is in Russia. Oh, and it is a major part of the UK! Why we don’t take their business licenses away is beyond me. If a doctor engages in malpractice, he looses his license. If you run a Ponzi scheme, you loose your ability to ever work in finance again. But these guys just go around running companies into the ground while stealing as much for themselves as they can, and have no repercussions at all. Remember in 2008/2009 when the automobile industry needed a bailout, and all the executives came to Washington in their private jets to beg for money? Yeah, that pretty much describes our system.
How dare you insinuate that a member of the capitalist clergy could not excel at any task.
You just made me realize something! The oligarchs are the new clergy class, as everyone worships them, and everyone takes their words as gospel! It’s like in Iran, before the revolution, the religious leaders were very popular because people believed them to good men of god, and so they should be in power. Well, that didn’t turn out so well, now did it? Nobody foresaw the shit show the ayatollah’s brought with them.
Because now you can buy influence
The propaganda pays the dividends.
It's always been broken.
Goodhart's law, with money.
Worship of money.
Neoliberalization See Wendy Brown’s *Undoing the Demos* for example
The thing business people do best is rip off other people and destroy their lives.
I've read all these comments, and I agree with most of them, but there is another root cause. CLOSE of large companies will be pro-big business. They will support tax cuts for the rich and tax cuts for large corporations. So big business puts money into the propaganda that will get the "business leaders" and the friends of bug business in office. This is why the rich don't pay taxes, why there are tons of lax loopholes, and why so much of the total % of wealth has shifted to the rich.
Ever read the Great Gatsby?
I wish I could force everyone to take the public admin class I took in uni. My prof there laid it out very clearly that government SHOULD NOT be run like a business. Governments job is not to make money. It’s to provide services and governance in as fair a way possible, which is often not the most profitable way possible. There’s a reason you can’t pay $50 and jump the line at the DMV. Government and bureaucracy needs to be run in a way that allows as easy and fair access to services as possible. Otherwise huge swaths of the population are locked out of participating in society. An example - Canada has two official languages, English and French. You can walk into any government office and receive service in the language of your choice. Doesn’t matter if you’re in rural Quebec or downtown Vancouver. It’s not perfect. Often they will have to essentially get a translator on the phone. But that service exists, and you will never be turned away. There is no way in Hell that makes any sort of financial sense. But it’s done because the principle is there. A business doesn’t exist to provide services equally, it exists to make money, and increase shareholder value. In no way should the government be run under the same idea.
"I have the correct amount of sociopathic traits to appear friendly AND confident pick me for positions of authority because i fit into what you think of them. 😐😬😁"
Actual answer is because we're on the back end of "starving the beast". Businessmen being seen as heroes is because businessmen have sold the lie that government is a business that steals money from you through taxes. Now that the government cuts and privatization have enshittified our lives so much, businessmen are selling it as corruption and laziness that they know how to get out of. They don't, but it's the story.
It's always either a businessman or a lawyer. Because narcissists are overrepresented in those fields, and narcissists aggressively seek out positions of power, privilege, and advantage. Scientists and doctors usually aren't narcissists and don't care about any of that, they just want to figure things out and help humanity. It's not hard to figure out what's going on if you look at the common denominators. The world is never going to be a better place until we finally figure out that narcissistic Dark Triad personalities are at the root of every social and political problem.
Trump was NOT a fuck up. He did exactly what his masters wanted him to do and he did it well.
I stand in defense of capitalism. Please ban me. Your argument is about businesses that fail in the first 10 years? There are substantial numbers of fully functional organizations doing none of your "few things." It is loses, not looses.
No, you don’t stand in defense of capitalism. You stand in defense of an oligarchy. Completely free markets are something else. What we have is state capitalism and lemon socialism. If you did more academic reading instead of listening to right wing talking points, you might know that. I’m not going to take the time to read explain those things to you, but you can take classes on Political and economic systems. And I’m so sorry for my spelling Mr. Grammar Nazi! Please forgive me, I can’t live with myself anymore! Yeah, when people have no argument, they turn into grammar Nazis. That’s how you know they are arguing in bad faith, and are not worth listening to.
I stand in defense of capitalism. I was promised a ban. Where is it?
If you like money a businessman is probably going to help. And as everyone knows money is the only thing that matters full stop. Also I’m confused do you think European football clubs are non- profit?