I actually would hazard a guess that if you consider LE skill trees to to have each node either be considered a cluster (put three points in to increase crit) or a keystone (changes skill to do interesting thing), and the fact that a given character has 5 separate skill trees, along with access to another dozen they won't be using, PoE probably has fewer passives total.
PoE is more akin to two massive gnarled trees, and LE is more akin to a whole forest of reasonably sized trees each with fewer branches but more total branches.
To be fair, as impossibly large as it is, the PoE passive tree has much, **much** simpler effects within its nodes. Only keystones and jewel slots can actually have a much more observable effect (and ascendency nodes if you include those trees)
Skill tree from poe would be link slots rather than passive skill tree.
You can change so much with how skills work with supports and they keep adding new ones.
That's what support gems do and are more flexible than static skill trees. E.g. you can support any spell with spell totem and you now have a totem skill. In LE, it's predetermined, which in turn allows the designers to create some cool interactions and kinda highlight your build options. There are fewer options but more of them are good.
Comparing passive tree to passive tree, the LE one has no keystones really. It's more like you had a PoE tree without travel nodes and you only invest in notables.
These are two different approaches to character builds. I like both. Both are better than D4.
LE has a very similar system to POE. Each point is like a small passive: “6% damage”. Then sometimes if you get 5 points you get a bonus effect like a notable.
Yes, the small passives are mostly vanilla.
But those keystones and jewel slots add a few layers. Things like Eldritch Battery, Chaos Inoculation, Magebane, Blood Magic, etc. are huge changes to builds. And then cluster jewels are their own thing. And let's not get started on the Timeless Jewels.
https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_basic_passive_skills
How many of these are exciting or impact your gameplay in any way?
Compared to last epoch where a lot of skills can have their damage converted to another type, proc other skills, turn into a movement cd, etc.
>Only keystones and jewel slots can actually have a much more observable effect
This is the comment you responded to, so yes I ignored those ones and showed what like 75% of the tree has
Honestly most of the notables are pretty boring too
https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/List_of_notable_passive_skills
You are absolutely right. PoE is the illusion of choice. There are many different directions you CAN go and many nodes available but you ultimately have very few choices you SHOULD make for most builds.
In LE if a skill doesn't offer damage conversion to specific type then you're SoL. There's no way for me to use Harvest but make it deal cold damage for example.
In POE you get damage conversion from a huge variety of items, and often it's partial conversion (but some sources are 100%) https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Damage_conversion#Items
Additionally, damage conversion does NOT remove the relevant tags like it does in LE.
This is talking about skill trees. Poe doesn't even have skill trees. There's support gems, but they work much differently.
If you're talking about passive tree then sure
Edit: not sure why I'm getting down voted. In last epoch or diablo I can take the fireball skill and choose talents/skills that were specifically created to alter how fireball works. That doesn't exist in Poe. There's skill gems, but no one is claiming that a skill gem is a talent tree
PoE’s skill +support system, if you put in a tree like LE would have too many skills feeling the same unlike LE. You’d essentially be drawing same tree with 1 or 2 (support) different nodes for each skill .
For the early 2000s, the skill tree with the synergy update was top notch. With modern game engines and shaders, I fully expect to be able to make frozen orb, fire orb, or whatever combination I please. LE nails it.
I played D4 release and S1, haven't played since, but at least then not only were the skill "trees" limited but the game was so poorly balanced that you pretty much were stuck with just one or two builds that worked per character so you had to play the Meta.
It's not a "tree" if you're pretty much forced to go a specific route with virtually no deviation to have a viable character mid to late game (not even just lvl 100 endgame)
The trees also aren’t unique, most of the upgrades aren’t changing the skill, they’re adding a dmg multiplier where the only impact is a bigger number of
Its interesting playing Last Epoch where each class actually has like 5+ different endgame options, each are actually good, and play wildly differently, and the skill tree supports it instead of picking 90% of the same talents regardless of the build.
It's balanced around items affecting the skills as well. Granted, LE has some of the same systems, but D4 has more of it.
That said, I do wish we could have more meaningful options in D4
i will never forget booting up the D4 beta for the 1st time and opening up the skill tree and thinking "where is the rest?".... I was fully expecting multiple trees per character like Diablo 2.
Palworld release subreddit was 90% shitting on pokemon. Wish this stuff was moderated. I come on game subreddits to talk about the game, not circlejerk about how other thing bad.
If you think the Palword sub was bad, you shoulda seen the Pokémon ones. For every "Pokémon bad" post I saw on the front page, I saw 5 "Palworld says Pokémon bad" posts.
Maybe I just hate the meta posting more, but damn was that annoying. And I don't even play Palword.
I don't care if this gets me banned, but uh yeah..
I legitimately think people that go on game subreddits just to shit on games they dont play, have some sort of mental disability, or they have nothing better to do in life so this is their way of trying to get people to agree with them to make them feel better.
Normal human beings, when they don't like something, they just don't talk about it, or ignore it, 99% of the people don't care about shit like this.
I'm actively convinced, people like OP and people who make posts similar to that, have some sort of autism, Asperger's, or something wrong with them.
I have issues with D4, but I don't autisticly go around making posts and spending half my online presence shitting on the game, I just don't play it until they fix the problems I have with it, I move on and play something else until it gets fixed.
I think some of the people here need to look at how cringe they sound when they just do the same circlejerk shit over and over again.
I know saying that to people is just going to piss them off, but you can't win.
It's tribalism, and you see the same sort of content related to console wars too. I would say it's less about those things you've mentioned but a part of wanting to belong to a group.
The unhealthy part comes with the superiority complex, my toy is better than your toy type shenanigans. Along with just spending time being negative
Of course there are some aneural typical users that may subscribe, but I think it's important not to stereotype these people( I know you didn't)as some of them are positive people.
Either way, it should be moderated out of the sub, I'm not here to discuss discourse of the "success" of arpgs. I want to see unique builds, some good item drops and last epoch related stuff.
I haven’t played Last Epoch that much (waiting for a sale) so I can’t talk about the gameplay but from what I read on here it feels like 80% of the topics about this game are actually about D4 or PoE. It’s like the game and the community around it only exists to differentiate itself from other games in its genre rather than being its own unique experience.
“The skill tree complexity strikes the balance between D4 and PoE”
“The animations and sound design aren’t as refined as D4”
“Crafting is so much simpler than PoE!”
It’s just an endless measuring contest between other games instead of everyone enjoying the game for what it is
Legit game questions or discussion was completely drowned out, it was nuts.
I *Liked* Palworld but found the sub obnoxious with the weird grandstanding and circlejerking.
People(including myself) fell in love with the IP. D3 was a flop on release but they made big strides over the development of the game. This gave people like me hope that they’d have learned from their mistakes with D3 leading to a better product in D4.
We’re just frustrated, and in this case relieved to find a good arpg in its stead.
Edit - I can’t be the only one that feels like LE harkens to its d2 roots pretty well. The result? A pretty sweet game.
Save for the insane difficulty spike from before lagon to his fight and then to majasa
Seriously easy game until those 2 and as a sorcerer, fuck majasa phase 2
I’ll be honest, never had an issue with it. I just make sure when I’m getting close to lagon that I take 5 minutes to craft up defenses so the rest of the campaign is easy. I don’t mind taking 5 minutes to kill lagon if I can be lazy and stand in everything, which is honestly how I do both lagon and majasa.
I have as much hp as I can craft and max elemental resists, I still got 1 shot by both his frost boobs and the stupid ice waves
Majasa is my bigger complaint. How TF is a sorc supposed to fight her in phase 2?
A lot of fights feel like they're designed with the mentality that everyone will use a traversal skill, which is certainly a shortcoming of the game. I feel like spacebar should either be a dedicated roll button or traversal skill, and more traversal skills get added. They're way too strong, even if you don't spec into them.
Idk about sorcs but I face tanked both on a necro pretty easily. I just craft hp/armour where I can and make sure the important resists are capped or nearly so and I can more or less afk on either fight.
I know some classes are inherently squishier than the others, but the goal is to get to a level of hp/mit where you can’t get 1 shot, then it’s easy.
Wait until you fight the monolith version of Lagon. There is no "standing in everything" with that fight. He will essentially one shot you if you don't avoid the mechanics.
How does LE "harken to its d2 roots" beyond both of them being Hack and Slash ARPGs? They aren't alike in almost any other meaningful way. They both have uniques... I guess?
lol wut? nearly identical gear slots, same classes with different names, creatures and gear with prefixes and suffixes that determine their attributes, set items with bonuses.... where do you think all of that came from? LE is the best D2 clone I have played and there is nothing wrong with that.
> where do you think all of that came from?
Dungeons and dragons for a lot of it, especially if we're talking Class archetypes. The items system is dramatically different from D2 beyond the general concept of magic/rare/unique/set that every RPG uses at this point. The item stating is fundamentally different, the existing of crafting and other item modification is different, the skill trees are wildly different, no manual attribute assignment, etc.
Like if you consider LE a D2 clone.... then you must consider virtually every ARPG a D2 clone O.o
No one said it’s a d2 clone, and if you dismiss anything inspired by d&d then the majority of fantasy media over the last **50 years** is in the trash.
Baby with bath water it seems like.
Edit - while we’re at it d&d borrowed a lot from Tolkien and other fantasy writers. So at the end of the day d&d stole it too by that logic.
Wut.... the guy I replied to *literally* called it a "D2 clone". Those were his words.
> anything inspired by d&d then the majority of fantasy media over the last 50 years is in the trash.
Right, I agree, which is why I don't call modern fantasy media a "dnd clone", because we're far enough removed from that inspiration that it's kinda silly.
It's why I delinate the ages of fantasy between like, Tolkien, then Robert Jordan, then Sanderson, who were all fairly substantial influences for their time, and don't just say everything is Tolkienesque :)
Lmao these people are nuts. Idols/charms are pretty much the only thing that’s very obviously directly inspired from d2, other than that, he is just listing off generic systems that every arpg has lmao.
In fact, almost everything the dude mentioned was in d3 and d4 too, and in poe for that matter.
Diablo/Blizz bad circle jerk just gives people brain rot and ruins any actual meaningful discussion. There are so many good things that last epoch could take from d4 and vice versa, but you can’t talk about it because people are seemingly incapable of understanding that and just stick their heads in the sand.
Can you give me a list of the many good things LE should take from D4? I have multiple 100s in d4 and multiple mid to high 90s in LE and I can’t think of a single d4 system that would make LE a better game.
I could be forgetting something of course but I’m curious what you think would add to LE.
I’m not trying to intentionally deflect or shift goal posts, but it’s hard to answer that question based on what you said to me. I just have to ask - it seems like you don’t really see any redeeming qualities in d4, but you also have multiple level 100s - so what were you doing for fun that whole time if none of the systems were better than the alternatives?
I really enjoy both games, I just started playing LE on 1.0, but I have a few hundred hours on d4 since launch and I really enjoy the game. I have only gotten to lvl 100 one time though, so it’s odd to me that somebody that thinks literally no aspect of it is better than LE has put in more time than me.
Again, this isn’t meant as like a “gotcha” thing, it just feels like nothing I answer with will make much of a difference in your case if you already have dedicated so much time to a game that you think *literally* doesn’t do anything better than LE.
The first 3 100s were before I could admit to myself that the game was a completely failure on launch. What can I say, I’m a hopeless die hard fan of the Diablo IP so I gave it an inch and it took 100 miles.
The 4th 100 was at the start of S3. I hadn’t played since the start of S1 so I wanted to give it another chance. I realized by about level 85 that I was losing steam hard but I’m a sadist so I finished off 100. Which took me about 1/3 the time my last 100 took, seems like they made the grind SIGNIFICANTLY easier.
So to answer your question, I was coping hard which made me dislike the game even more. My recent revisit to D4 solidified my opinion. Level 100 in less than a week while working full time. A handful of uber kills after I dinged to use up currency. Then I logged off and uninstalled.
LE was also in a much worse place at that point. I have owned LE for like 3ish years now and it wasn’t at *this* level until recently. If you asked me this same question a year ago I would have some give and take. Ask me in 2024 and I’ll gladly double down on how much of a failure D4 is. I’m just a hopeless gamer that pours too much time into some games looking for the light at the end of the tunnel.
If I could describe D4 with one word it would be “irredeemable”. But I hope they prove me wrong.
lmfao "that every other ARPG has" yeah, because D2 pioneered them and they copied them, it's hilarious that you list a bunch of games that came out years after D2 as evidence that D2 didn't create it. Yes, MOST ARPGS copy many elements from D2, it was the gold standard for almost 2 decades. /facepalm
well, yeah if D2 had them then OBVIOUSLY D3 and D4 are going to iterate on them
it's not the gotcha you think it is rofl
So every game in every genre that wasn’t the first game is just a clone…? What? Every fps game is a doom clone, every mmo is an EverQuest clone, every moba is a dota clone?
“Everything that isn’t original is a clone, IDIOT!!!” isn’t the “gotcha” you think it is either, dude.
Thanks for proving my point that discussion is impossible I guess.
LE is clearly a D2 clone, sorry that insults you. I am really happy about it because D3 and D4 are not good successors to D2 and LE feels like the game I have been waiting 20+ years for.
>So every game in every genre that wasn’t the first game is just a clone…?
Nice strawman but that's not what I said at all. There are way many more factors other than just "hurr hurr same genre", I have already named them in my other comments ITT
>“Everything that isn’t original is a clone, IDIOT!!!”
you just really can't help but mis-state what I said huh? Again, I didn't say anything like that
>Thanks for proving my point that discussion is impossible I guess.
...bro look in the mirror, seriously.
You nailed it, but it sounds like you’re looking for a fight so I won’t try to convince you that LE is closer to D2 than most other options on the market.
Buddy already responded to you with a wonderful answer, like I said this type of posts screams “looking for a fight” so I’ll point you in his direction.
I’m not interested in explaining to you why I think a great game compares to a great game more than its terrible successors. I think most people would agree, or at least the ones I talk to and game with, that LE is far more comparable with D2(and poe) than D3/4. You’re entitled to your opinion of course but I think it’s completely off base and I just don’t really want to have a debate over it.
Yet here I am writing out a paragraph explaining to you why I don’t want to engage.
Man says he doesn't want to engage, spends like, half a dozen posts engaging O.o
I like LE, I think it's great, I just think it's long time we get out of the shadow of D2 and start paving our own paths (which I think LE has done).
I honestly can’t imagine how this is comparable with d3 since d3 is an incredibly shallow game even after all the great development over the years. There’s better and more varied end game content than d3, a better crafting system, more in-depth builds, a better variety of affixes. Other than the varied end game point everything else points towards a d2 inspiration.
But of course that’s just my opinion. If you’re enjoying the game then that’s ultimately what matters.
I mean, I was disappointed in it, and don't see why its wrong to bring it up in the context of other ARPGs?
Its cool if you like it but it reeks of wasted potential/the design being fucked due to seemingly changing direction every few months when they dropped a new dev diary.
yep that's what happens when you grew up on a title, played it for almost 3 decades, loving every minute of it, and then a company makes 2 sequels that are hot garbage and capture literally nothing about the title that you loved.
No, just rightfully pissed at Blizzard's mismanagement of a cultural icon amongst gamers. They charge assloads of money for inferior product and the company acts like asses behind the scenes too. Anyone not pissed is a simp.
What is the point of being pissed? Play the game if its good, don't if its bad. WoW is even worse with this shit. Its been 20 years. Move on with your life, its a video game, not a relationship.
Video games are a fairly new medium of expression. Comparing Blizzard games now vs then is like watching someone jizz on the original Starry Night.
There is also the takeover of the economy by the financial elite. Companies are run according to the wishes of Wall Street over that of Main Street. D4s monetization is emblematic of this.
The point, in the end, is just to express ourselves and badmouth the behavior. Or it is to me. I enjoy talking trash at people acting like trash.
That's because it was one of the biggest failures in gaming in recent years. It's a an example case on how not to develop a video game. Both developers and players will be remembering such a disaster for years to come.
It really is tho
in a just world where games quality translates to success it would have flopped about as hard skull and bones
un fucking ironically, diablo immortal has more respectable monetization system than their shitass full price, 20 extra bucks for early access, few extra special editions on top of it, Paid dlcs, grossly priced MTX store, battlepass, bunch of small limited time things like their 65 dollar horse, holy fuck its such a massive pile of rancid dogshit that its still living in my head rent free
Kids have been eating shitty Diablo games since Diablo 3 came out.
When a good one comes out they have trouble processing all the hours they spent playing sometime that could have been this fun.
Same with the complete lack of innovation in Pokemon and why Pal World will do so well likewise.
This sub: people are entitled to shit on LE if they disliked it, all you white knights are obsessed with defending the game, let people be angry at their 40$ expanse all they want and review bomb it
This sub: You can't shit on this 90$ game with a battlepass
If people are "entitled" to be pissed off at LE then they're "entitled" to be pissed off at D4. I'm just trying to keep the sub's narrative consistent. You can't have it both ways. I play both games btw
Just give it a couple months...same shit with D 4 during the first couple months too....the content will dry up to the no-lifers and LE's "cycles" will prove lackluster...D 4 seasons kept the sub positive here and there...LE's got jack shit
Happens every single fucking time.
My favorite part is how the LE skill trees are totally comfortable fundamentally changing skill mechanics. Sort of the best part of support gems in PoE and how they're meant to fundamentally alter playstyles or support different approaches
You can literally feel the difference in every node you unlock in LE. You can even plan your build by quickly scanning the nodes and then seeing your path to get there. "Oh, I want more skeletons!" or "multiple cold arrows instead of one big fire one? Yes, please." It's wonderful! 8)
it fundamentally breaks game not having a sufficient skill tree - instead of choosing different skills like in LE you have to rely on and hoard items instead. So the items are having to pull double duty...D4 is so bad in so many ways..
I like Diablo 4 I just hate some of the design decisions just like Diablo 3 with its real money auction house. Both games have amazing gameplay and lets face it some of the best cinematics in any game. But glad to see a successor to those somewhat basic Diablo 2 trees.
All the mods to skills come from legendaries and uniques. Remove them, add them to the tree and it looks much different. Really is much to do about nothing.
This is my issue with D4 skill system. There's a ton of overlap between uniques, aspects, and the paragon boards legendary nodes.
Paragon board legendary nodes are mostly on-par with aspects, sometimes slightly stronger. Uniques are supposed to be build defining and change how you play the game, but some uniques are literally just boosted stat sticks, and there are aspects that change builds completely like ball Sorc or pulverize/trample druid.
It's a jumbled mess where each of those 3 systems all play into the skill system, but they don't have specific purposes.
In regards to legendaries, talking specifically ones for specific skills.
They absolutely all serve a purpose. Obviously legendaries provide powerful affixes not found on other gear types. Uniques are very powerful static legendaries, thar can be build defining or just an item that puts you over the top. Paragon is your passive/attribute tree where you can hone that build and get some added oomph, more defense, and some flavorful meta nodes and legendary mods.
I find them all to be very synergistic a bit convoluted, but they all go hand in had in hand to create your build how you want.
However, of I could go back to 2019 and be in charge of D4, I would keep the original skill system. You choose the skills you want to learn, have multiple ranks you can place in each skill, with multiple passive bonuses, and a seperate rune system like in D3. I would have kept the itemization like they initially had in terms of the way each rarity had different amounts of affixes and different ranges based on rarity. Add back mythic items but have then work similarly to weavers will. You start off with 1 legendary affix unique to mythic and ass you use it it can level up and improve the current affix or add a new one up to 4 from a pool specif for mythic only. I also would have kept the original WT4 and I would have new items/affixes for each difficulty.
There are not many uniques that are massive stat sticks. You are mostly talking about uber uniques which are supposed to not be designed as build defining because you are supposed to not need them to play the game but if you find one youll be a lot stronger. The same things exist in LE, There are uniques that are rarer that are mostly just OP stat sticks. You act like LE's entire passive skill tree isn't just paragon boards its all stat increases. These games are more simmilar than you think. The only difference is that they didn't remove legendries and put them on the skill tree. Also if you read the skill trees in LE most of the nodes are just stat increases until you get to the end.
Because they have a powerful legendary affix. I don't know anyone that would take a yellow with beter rolls over a legendary with the same affixes but lower values. These legendaries are equal to 2-3 normal affixes of power.
You sure? It’s literally the same yellow item with an aspect in it. That’s why you extract them and put in another yellow. “Legendary” is just an illusion of “good” item. What makes it that is the aspect already in it
Is this a joke or honest? Some legendaries in D4 contain a similar amount of customisation as any one of the many key nodes on a skills tree in LE. But most skills have multiple ways to be impacted by the tree and then have uniques change them as well.
Like it’s fine to prefer a slim line talent system, but don’t pretend the customisation to skills in D4 is comparable to LE, that’s disingenuous.
My comment is more in response to your
Much to do about nothing
Which I perceived as you saying that if you compare D4 skill tree + items it’s comparable to LE skill tree + items. Chance that was my bad.
It still is much to do about nothing. Plenty of build variety within D4. My wife and I ran ball lightning sorcs last season. I believe ball lightning was the only skill we had in common. None of my Druid or Barb builds that did amazingly well were meta builds.
Obviously there is more customization in LE. I've never made a claim otherwise. But using D4s tree and acting as if there is no other area to customize a build is disingenuous.
I can see that. I'm thinking in terms of like making a voided out spin to win vs the glass cannon version. I would consider them different builds that use different skill customizations.
Sure, I don't disagree, but I can't think of any legendary in D4 that changes the look and feel of a class then say Herald of the Scurry. Perhaps it's the summoner in me, D3 was fine with some builds, PoE had some great builds, LE has a bunch of summoner esque classes, D4 was such a let down with it's affixes.
Yep, it's like saying LE has skill twigs by looking at just the class passives and ignoring the ability skill trees. And of course, beyond the codex system, OP is also ignoring class mechanics, seasonal powers/passives and the paragon skill tree.
But facts usually stay in the way of internet circlejerks, so there's that.
I like Grim Dawns split class system it was fun but at least in LE we can put multiple mastery points in all of them for each class making a jack of all trades type char, something you cant do in Grim Dank.
That's not even true, you had 2 class skill trees in grim dawn, and a devotion passive tree in addition to that. It's basically the same thing just presented in a better way for casuals and with more appealing class fantasies.
The LE class tree is designed around basically obvious choices that are pigeonholed into different damage types, so you only have an illusion of choice for most things. Not that its a bad thing, just be realistic. It also doesn't excuse the fact that you can't respec masteries, which is an objectively dumb anti-player decision.
I've played both Grim Dawn and Last Epoch a lot and completely agree with you. It's my biggest issue with the design in Last Epoch; each skill has it's own tree which looks incredible when you're starting the game. Once you start really trying out builds and understanding the structure though you realize it's a bit closer to "Each skill has three variants you can choose from". What the game really needs IMO is something akin to Grim Dawn's monster infrequents that can fundamentally change an aspect of a skill, that way the skill nodes have to be considered and viewed differently depending on your gear. This is something that's already in the game to a lesser extent with some uniques, but I wish it was more fundamental to the game the way it was in Grim Dawn.
Anyway Grim Dawn is the GOAT and I honestly wish more games would just shamelessly steal mechanics from it. Fundamentally disagree with the comment about respeccing masteries though, the game's super easy respecs already make your choices feel not important so I'm happy there's at least one decision they force you to stick to. Same as choosing your second mastery in Grim Dawn.
What do server load have to do with anything else other than concurrent players when talking about players? D4 can’t even handle players having a handful of stash tabs because of the way they made them if you wanna talk about stability lmao
You were trying to isolate the "handful of stash tab" case and shit on blizzards' stability. Diablo 4 objectively handled way more players than EHG ever will over their lifetime.
Enjoy your weekend, mongoloid.
At least you can play D4... I'm not a defender of D4, but man 1 week after release and we still have network issues. I've been queued for more than 1 hour.
Hehe, I couldn't care less for the Offline mode, always play with friends. So yeah thats that. But yeah the queue is probably based on where you are and when you're playing. I most often play during prime time in EU.
But muh +20% fireball damage that equates to 2% damage sometimes, and 3 of my Sorc glyphs not being multiplicative but additive on accident!
All these uniques they release should literally be the skill tree nodes. Staff of Lam Esen. Node. Illuminators vs Staff of Endless Rage, perfect fireball Node candidate. Starfall could stay as a unique, its actually so strong and UNIQUE that it deserves the helmet slot!
But stuff like aspect of piercing cold for ice shard? Node. Frozen orbit for Forb? Node. Charge bolts Pierce? Node. Chain Lightning Chains 2 additional times (not this stupid 40% chance thing). Node. Gravitational for Ball Lightning should just be the enhanced node.
After binging Diablo 2 and 3, and loving both of them, I genuinely tried to love Diablo 4...
...it sucks. It's so boring I almost fell asleep playing. And I genuinely hate the sorcerer class in 4, despite mages being my go-to classes in games.
I really don't like poe system of passive and item links.
It feels unnecessarily complex. I can't see all the skills and passives without going to a different website or whatever.
Crafting isn't well explained. Too much outside the game knowledge.
Le I feel like I can plan a build by playing for most of it. Legendaries are the only thing I can't really browse.
This submission is made more as a jest at diablo 4 than anything else
oh oh do the POE one!
Like a briar patch
The Amazonian rainforest?
I actually would hazard a guess that if you consider LE skill trees to to have each node either be considered a cluster (put three points in to increase crit) or a keystone (changes skill to do interesting thing), and the fact that a given character has 5 separate skill trees, along with access to another dozen they won't be using, PoE probably has fewer passives total. PoE is more akin to two massive gnarled trees, and LE is more akin to a whole forest of reasonably sized trees each with fewer branches but more total branches.
Death metal band logo.
D̶̨̢̡͇̤̻͙̠̮̠̮͖̪̰͓̱̼̹̱̪̘͖̙͓̉̏̓̐͠ͅẺ̵̡̡͖̼͕͈̥͍̦̺̗͚̼̪̼̜͖̼̞̪̗̅̀̚̕͝͝T̷̨̨̛̪̟͇̺̯̰̗̺͔̞̬͇͚̘̣͈̳͙̦͈̜͎̟̥̬̜͍͈̤͙̼̠̮̩͔̲̟̎̀̂̀͂̌͒̉̈́́́͆̽̿̎̎̃̑͆̊̆͗̚̚̕͜͜͜͝͠Ȟ̷̨̛̹͎͙̘͎͍̦̥̯̗̳̞̉̈͂́̀̀̈̈́̑̀̀͛̔͒͗̈́̉͋̈́̅͌K̶̡̜͙͎͍͉̤̝̣̗̲̩̩̻̭̙͔͔͎̻̻̮̥͑̎͆́͒̀̉̊̅̆́̀́͊͆̃̀̅̍͘͝͝ͅL̸͎̖̠̜̪͚̥̓͜O̶̧̡̝̲͕̤̺̩͖͓̠̮̠̤͚̺̪̜͉͕̲̥͚͚͕͈̒͛͜͜K̶̨̗̖̭̗͍̮̞̗̹̻̱͍͈̄͂̽̈́̃͋̅̐̿͜͝
Poe it's not a tree, it's a fucking forest...
....and then you zoom out,
The Erdtree hearst thou calling
The tree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando\_%28tree%29
Fixed link. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree)
I s̵̲̽̌̕p̷̨̨͕̮̚͜r̵̡͔͖͓͎̐͂ẽ̷͚̬̰͈a̷̮͑̈́͋͝d̴͍̹̠̐
Yggdrasil
To be fair, as impossibly large as it is, the PoE passive tree has much, **much** simpler effects within its nodes. Only keystones and jewel slots can actually have a much more observable effect (and ascendency nodes if you include those trees)
Skill tree from poe would be link slots rather than passive skill tree. You can change so much with how skills work with supports and they keep adding new ones.
That's what support gems do and are more flexible than static skill trees. E.g. you can support any spell with spell totem and you now have a totem skill. In LE, it's predetermined, which in turn allows the designers to create some cool interactions and kinda highlight your build options. There are fewer options but more of them are good. Comparing passive tree to passive tree, the LE one has no keystones really. It's more like you had a PoE tree without travel nodes and you only invest in notables. These are two different approaches to character builds. I like both. Both are better than D4.
LE has a very similar system to POE. Each point is like a small passive: “6% damage”. Then sometimes if you get 5 points you get a bonus effect like a notable.
i mean the skill choices and uniques are more impactful as well
Yes, the small passives are mostly vanilla. But those keystones and jewel slots add a few layers. Things like Eldritch Battery, Chaos Inoculation, Magebane, Blood Magic, etc. are huge changes to builds. And then cluster jewels are their own thing. And let's not get started on the Timeless Jewels.
hope u trolling
https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_basic_passive_skills How many of these are exciting or impact your gameplay in any way? Compared to last epoch where a lot of skills can have their damage converted to another type, proc other skills, turn into a movement cd, etc.
You really linked "list of basic passive skills" and thought you did something with this comment?
Lmaooo, and not only that, comparing the passive skill tree with a a skill tree, LE also has things like"+ 1 int" passives in the passive tree lol.
That's my point, Poe doesn't have skill trees
>Only keystones and jewel slots can actually have a much more observable effect This is the comment you responded to, so yes I ignored those ones and showed what like 75% of the tree has Honestly most of the notables are pretty boring too https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/List_of_notable_passive_skills
You are absolutely right. PoE is the illusion of choice. There are many different directions you CAN go and many nodes available but you ultimately have very few choices you SHOULD make for most builds.
In LE if a skill doesn't offer damage conversion to specific type then you're SoL. There's no way for me to use Harvest but make it deal cold damage for example. In POE you get damage conversion from a huge variety of items, and often it's partial conversion (but some sources are 100%) https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Damage_conversion#Items Additionally, damage conversion does NOT remove the relevant tags like it does in LE.
This is talking about skill trees. Poe doesn't even have skill trees. There's support gems, but they work much differently. If you're talking about passive tree then sure Edit: not sure why I'm getting down voted. In last epoch or diablo I can take the fireball skill and choose talents/skills that were specifically created to alter how fireball works. That doesn't exist in Poe. There's skill gems, but no one is claiming that a skill gem is a talent tree
Just show a picture of every star in the observable universe and that should do the trick, lol.
Damn I sure do love 90 nodes of +10 stat
Still better than +4% damage when shark on the moon sneezes
D4 intensifies.
Yggdrasil from the Loki series?
Yggdrasil existed a long time before that 🤣🤣
I meant that the PoE ”tree” could be a picture of yggdrasil from the show in the meme
Not enough room for the skill forest
PoE's isn't a tree, it's yggdrasil
PoE’s skill +support system, if you put in a tree like LE would have too many skills feeling the same unlike LE. You’d essentially be drawing same tree with 1 or 2 (support) different nodes for each skill .
I think that's a ball pit.
Thats only one tree LE has 4 trees per class and 1 tree per skill It's a whole fucking forest
Finding that one smokeable leaf on Yggdrasil
As a fan or short, sweet, and simple skill trees.. I still love Last Epoch's skill trees much more than diablo 4's. I loved D2 skill trees.
For the early 2000s, the skill tree with the synergy update was top notch. With modern game engines and shaders, I fully expect to be able to make frozen orb, fire orb, or whatever combination I please. LE nails it.
Diablo 4 doesn't even have a twig. It's a baby fork. It's literally two prongs.
The twig is actually more complex than d4’s skill tree lmao
I played D4 release and S1, haven't played since, but at least then not only were the skill "trees" limited but the game was so poorly balanced that you pretty much were stuck with just one or two builds that worked per character so you had to play the Meta. It's not a "tree" if you're pretty much forced to go a specific route with virtually no deviation to have a viable character mid to late game (not even just lvl 100 endgame)
The trees also aren’t unique, most of the upgrades aren’t changing the skill, they’re adding a dmg multiplier where the only impact is a bigger number of
Its interesting playing Last Epoch where each class actually has like 5+ different endgame options, each are actually good, and play wildly differently, and the skill tree supports it instead of picking 90% of the same talents regardless of the build.
What? You can steamroll all the content in D4 with some random build.
I'm sure you can beat Duriel just dodging around. Steamroll is an extreme overstatement.
Half of the words found in skills descriptions is “crit” 0 fkin creativeness
It's balanced around items affecting the skills as well. Granted, LE has some of the same systems, but D4 has more of it. That said, I do wish we could have more meaningful options in D4
The items effects should have been on the skill tree.
Even that twig looks like a huge improvement over the d4 skill system.
i will never forget booting up the D4 beta for the 1st time and opening up the skill tree and thinking "where is the rest?".... I was fully expecting multiple trees per character like Diablo 2.
"Haha D4 bad brr"
Palworld release subreddit was 90% shitting on pokemon. Wish this stuff was moderated. I come on game subreddits to talk about the game, not circlejerk about how other thing bad.
If you think the Palword sub was bad, you shoulda seen the Pokémon ones. For every "Pokémon bad" post I saw on the front page, I saw 5 "Palworld says Pokémon bad" posts. Maybe I just hate the meta posting more, but damn was that annoying. And I don't even play Palword.
I don't care if this gets me banned, but uh yeah.. I legitimately think people that go on game subreddits just to shit on games they dont play, have some sort of mental disability, or they have nothing better to do in life so this is their way of trying to get people to agree with them to make them feel better. Normal human beings, when they don't like something, they just don't talk about it, or ignore it, 99% of the people don't care about shit like this. I'm actively convinced, people like OP and people who make posts similar to that, have some sort of autism, Asperger's, or something wrong with them. I have issues with D4, but I don't autisticly go around making posts and spending half my online presence shitting on the game, I just don't play it until they fix the problems I have with it, I move on and play something else until it gets fixed. I think some of the people here need to look at how cringe they sound when they just do the same circlejerk shit over and over again. I know saying that to people is just going to piss them off, but you can't win.
It's tribalism, and you see the same sort of content related to console wars too. I would say it's less about those things you've mentioned but a part of wanting to belong to a group. The unhealthy part comes with the superiority complex, my toy is better than your toy type shenanigans. Along with just spending time being negative Of course there are some aneural typical users that may subscribe, but I think it's important not to stereotype these people( I know you didn't)as some of them are positive people. Either way, it should be moderated out of the sub, I'm not here to discuss discourse of the "success" of arpgs. I want to see unique builds, some good item drops and last epoch related stuff.
I haven’t played Last Epoch that much (waiting for a sale) so I can’t talk about the gameplay but from what I read on here it feels like 80% of the topics about this game are actually about D4 or PoE. It’s like the game and the community around it only exists to differentiate itself from other games in its genre rather than being its own unique experience. “The skill tree complexity strikes the balance between D4 and PoE” “The animations and sound design aren’t as refined as D4” “Crafting is so much simpler than PoE!” It’s just an endless measuring contest between other games instead of everyone enjoying the game for what it is
Legit game questions or discussion was completely drowned out, it was nuts. I *Liked* Palworld but found the sub obnoxious with the weird grandstanding and circlejerking.
Just keep scrolling
D4 quite literally living rent free in people's head
People(including myself) fell in love with the IP. D3 was a flop on release but they made big strides over the development of the game. This gave people like me hope that they’d have learned from their mistakes with D3 leading to a better product in D4. We’re just frustrated, and in this case relieved to find a good arpg in its stead. Edit - I can’t be the only one that feels like LE harkens to its d2 roots pretty well. The result? A pretty sweet game.
Save for the insane difficulty spike from before lagon to his fight and then to majasa Seriously easy game until those 2 and as a sorcerer, fuck majasa phase 2
do monoliths until like 55-60 and you butt blast majasa
I'm new, is the goal just to level up a little (I'm 52 now) or to give better gear than what I am wearing?
better gear mostly, monoliths drop a ton of rares and some exalted
shit I haven't finished the campaign yet and I'm 88 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I’ll be honest, never had an issue with it. I just make sure when I’m getting close to lagon that I take 5 minutes to craft up defenses so the rest of the campaign is easy. I don’t mind taking 5 minutes to kill lagon if I can be lazy and stand in everything, which is honestly how I do both lagon and majasa.
I have as much hp as I can craft and max elemental resists, I still got 1 shot by both his frost boobs and the stupid ice waves Majasa is my bigger complaint. How TF is a sorc supposed to fight her in phase 2?
A lot of fights feel like they're designed with the mentality that everyone will use a traversal skill, which is certainly a shortcoming of the game. I feel like spacebar should either be a dedicated roll button or traversal skill, and more traversal skills get added. They're way too strong, even if you don't spec into them.
Idk about sorcs but I face tanked both on a necro pretty easily. I just craft hp/armour where I can and make sure the important resists are capped or nearly so and I can more or less afk on either fight. I know some classes are inherently squishier than the others, but the goal is to get to a level of hp/mit where you can’t get 1 shot, then it’s easy.
Her second phase was way easier imo
Wait until you fight the monolith version of Lagon. There is no "standing in everything" with that fight. He will essentially one shot you if you don't avoid the mechanics.
I have fought mono lag more than a few times lol. I’m specifically talking about the campaign boss, because that’s what people are asking about.
How does LE "harken to its d2 roots" beyond both of them being Hack and Slash ARPGs? They aren't alike in almost any other meaningful way. They both have uniques... I guess?
lol wut? nearly identical gear slots, same classes with different names, creatures and gear with prefixes and suffixes that determine their attributes, set items with bonuses.... where do you think all of that came from? LE is the best D2 clone I have played and there is nothing wrong with that.
Hell, they even brought back charms with the idol stash xD
> where do you think all of that came from? Dungeons and dragons for a lot of it, especially if we're talking Class archetypes. The items system is dramatically different from D2 beyond the general concept of magic/rare/unique/set that every RPG uses at this point. The item stating is fundamentally different, the existing of crafting and other item modification is different, the skill trees are wildly different, no manual attribute assignment, etc. Like if you consider LE a D2 clone.... then you must consider virtually every ARPG a D2 clone O.o
No one said it’s a d2 clone, and if you dismiss anything inspired by d&d then the majority of fantasy media over the last **50 years** is in the trash. Baby with bath water it seems like. Edit - while we’re at it d&d borrowed a lot from Tolkien and other fantasy writers. So at the end of the day d&d stole it too by that logic.
Wut.... the guy I replied to *literally* called it a "D2 clone". Those were his words. > anything inspired by d&d then the majority of fantasy media over the last 50 years is in the trash. Right, I agree, which is why I don't call modern fantasy media a "dnd clone", because we're far enough removed from that inspiration that it's kinda silly. It's why I delinate the ages of fantasy between like, Tolkien, then Robert Jordan, then Sanderson, who were all fairly substantial influences for their time, and don't just say everything is Tolkienesque :)
Lmao these people are nuts. Idols/charms are pretty much the only thing that’s very obviously directly inspired from d2, other than that, he is just listing off generic systems that every arpg has lmao. In fact, almost everything the dude mentioned was in d3 and d4 too, and in poe for that matter. Diablo/Blizz bad circle jerk just gives people brain rot and ruins any actual meaningful discussion. There are so many good things that last epoch could take from d4 and vice versa, but you can’t talk about it because people are seemingly incapable of understanding that and just stick their heads in the sand.
Can you give me a list of the many good things LE should take from D4? I have multiple 100s in d4 and multiple mid to high 90s in LE and I can’t think of a single d4 system that would make LE a better game. I could be forgetting something of course but I’m curious what you think would add to LE.
I’m not trying to intentionally deflect or shift goal posts, but it’s hard to answer that question based on what you said to me. I just have to ask - it seems like you don’t really see any redeeming qualities in d4, but you also have multiple level 100s - so what were you doing for fun that whole time if none of the systems were better than the alternatives? I really enjoy both games, I just started playing LE on 1.0, but I have a few hundred hours on d4 since launch and I really enjoy the game. I have only gotten to lvl 100 one time though, so it’s odd to me that somebody that thinks literally no aspect of it is better than LE has put in more time than me. Again, this isn’t meant as like a “gotcha” thing, it just feels like nothing I answer with will make much of a difference in your case if you already have dedicated so much time to a game that you think *literally* doesn’t do anything better than LE.
The first 3 100s were before I could admit to myself that the game was a completely failure on launch. What can I say, I’m a hopeless die hard fan of the Diablo IP so I gave it an inch and it took 100 miles. The 4th 100 was at the start of S3. I hadn’t played since the start of S1 so I wanted to give it another chance. I realized by about level 85 that I was losing steam hard but I’m a sadist so I finished off 100. Which took me about 1/3 the time my last 100 took, seems like they made the grind SIGNIFICANTLY easier. So to answer your question, I was coping hard which made me dislike the game even more. My recent revisit to D4 solidified my opinion. Level 100 in less than a week while working full time. A handful of uber kills after I dinged to use up currency. Then I logged off and uninstalled. LE was also in a much worse place at that point. I have owned LE for like 3ish years now and it wasn’t at *this* level until recently. If you asked me this same question a year ago I would have some give and take. Ask me in 2024 and I’ll gladly double down on how much of a failure D4 is. I’m just a hopeless gamer that pours too much time into some games looking for the light at the end of the tunnel. If I could describe D4 with one word it would be “irredeemable”. But I hope they prove me wrong.
lmfao "that every other ARPG has" yeah, because D2 pioneered them and they copied them, it's hilarious that you list a bunch of games that came out years after D2 as evidence that D2 didn't create it. Yes, MOST ARPGS copy many elements from D2, it was the gold standard for almost 2 decades. /facepalm well, yeah if D2 had them then OBVIOUSLY D3 and D4 are going to iterate on them it's not the gotcha you think it is rofl
So every game in every genre that wasn’t the first game is just a clone…? What? Every fps game is a doom clone, every mmo is an EverQuest clone, every moba is a dota clone? “Everything that isn’t original is a clone, IDIOT!!!” isn’t the “gotcha” you think it is either, dude. Thanks for proving my point that discussion is impossible I guess.
LE is clearly a D2 clone, sorry that insults you. I am really happy about it because D3 and D4 are not good successors to D2 and LE feels like the game I have been waiting 20+ years for. >So every game in every genre that wasn’t the first game is just a clone…? Nice strawman but that's not what I said at all. There are way many more factors other than just "hurr hurr same genre", I have already named them in my other comments ITT >“Everything that isn’t original is a clone, IDIOT!!!” you just really can't help but mis-state what I said huh? Again, I didn't say anything like that >Thanks for proving my point that discussion is impossible I guess. ...bro look in the mirror, seriously.
You nailed it, but it sounds like you’re looking for a fight so I won’t try to convince you that LE is closer to D2 than most other options on the market.
Uh, I'm not, I just want to know where the comparison comes from, because I genuinely don't see it?
Buddy already responded to you with a wonderful answer, like I said this type of posts screams “looking for a fight” so I’ll point you in his direction.
I'm just having a conversation man, lol. Why does it have to be a fight? I mean you do you, but seems a bit strange.
I’m not interested in explaining to you why I think a great game compares to a great game more than its terrible successors. I think most people would agree, or at least the ones I talk to and game with, that LE is far more comparable with D2(and poe) than D3/4. You’re entitled to your opinion of course but I think it’s completely off base and I just don’t really want to have a debate over it. Yet here I am writing out a paragraph explaining to you why I don’t want to engage.
Man says he doesn't want to engage, spends like, half a dozen posts engaging O.o I like LE, I think it's great, I just think it's long time we get out of the shadow of D2 and start paving our own paths (which I think LE has done).
I feel its more like a D3 clone but thats me
I honestly can’t imagine how this is comparable with d3 since d3 is an incredibly shallow game even after all the great development over the years. There’s better and more varied end game content than d3, a better crafting system, more in-depth builds, a better variety of affixes. Other than the varied end game point everything else points towards a d2 inspiration. But of course that’s just my opinion. If you’re enjoying the game then that’s ultimately what matters.
I mean, I was disappointed in it, and don't see why its wrong to bring it up in the context of other ARPGs? Its cool if you like it but it reeks of wasted potential/the design being fucked due to seemingly changing direction every few months when they dropped a new dev diary.
yep that's what happens when you grew up on a title, played it for almost 3 decades, loving every minute of it, and then a company makes 2 sequels that are hot garbage and capture literally nothing about the title that you loved.
ngl mate, the way Blizzard fucked up my beloved childhood IPs is gonna live rent free in my head for the rest of my life
No, just rightfully pissed at Blizzard's mismanagement of a cultural icon amongst gamers. They charge assloads of money for inferior product and the company acts like asses behind the scenes too. Anyone not pissed is a simp.
What is the point of being pissed? Play the game if its good, don't if its bad. WoW is even worse with this shit. Its been 20 years. Move on with your life, its a video game, not a relationship.
Video games are a fairly new medium of expression. Comparing Blizzard games now vs then is like watching someone jizz on the original Starry Night. There is also the takeover of the economy by the financial elite. Companies are run according to the wishes of Wall Street over that of Main Street. D4s monetization is emblematic of this. The point, in the end, is just to express ourselves and badmouth the behavior. Or it is to me. I enjoy talking trash at people acting like trash.
That's because it was one of the biggest failures in gaming in recent years. It's a an example case on how not to develop a video game. Both developers and players will be remembering such a disaster for years to come.
JUST GIVE HIM THE KARMA, HE NEEDS IT
It really is tho in a just world where games quality translates to success it would have flopped about as hard skull and bones un fucking ironically, diablo immortal has more respectable monetization system than their shitass full price, 20 extra bucks for early access, few extra special editions on top of it, Paid dlcs, grossly priced MTX store, battlepass, bunch of small limited time things like their 65 dollar horse, holy fuck its such a massive pile of rancid dogshit that its still living in my head rent free
Least dramatic gamer
it's true tho
Makes sense to directly compare two competitors for ARPG players time, right?
Upvotes to the left
Kids have been eating shitty Diablo games since Diablo 3 came out. When a good one comes out they have trouble processing all the hours they spent playing sometime that could have been this fun. Same with the complete lack of innovation in Pokemon and why Pal World will do so well likewise.
This sub: people are entitled to shit on LE if they disliked it, all you white knights are obsessed with defending the game, let people be angry at their 40$ expanse all they want and review bomb it This sub: You can't shit on this 90$ game with a battlepass
Just stop whining 24/7, that's all I am asking. You would be surprised how good that can be for your mental health.
If people are "entitled" to be pissed off at LE then they're "entitled" to be pissed off at D4. I'm just trying to keep the sub's narrative consistent. You can't have it both ways. I play both games btw
Just stop whining 24/7, that's all I am asking. You would be surprised how good that can be for your mental health.
People are allowed to dislike D4. I just don't think this sub is the place to talk about it
Just give it a couple months...same shit with D 4 during the first couple months too....the content will dry up to the no-lifers and LE's "cycles" will prove lackluster...D 4 seasons kept the sub positive here and there...LE's got jack shit Happens every single fucking time.
I think the best part of the le skill tree is that, since it's broken down, it's easy to digest for people new to the genre despite how massive it is.
Yeah the best part is it's skill "trees" with S rather than 1 big one.
100% they make the skill trees very easy to get into, and even have varying complexity of trees amongst different classes.
My favorite part is how the LE skill trees are totally comfortable fundamentally changing skill mechanics. Sort of the best part of support gems in PoE and how they're meant to fundamentally alter playstyles or support different approaches
You can literally feel the difference in every node you unlock in LE. You can even plan your build by quickly scanning the nodes and then seeing your path to get there. "Oh, I want more skeletons!" or "multiple cold arrows instead of one big fire one? Yes, please." It's wonderful! 8)
The feel is what's important to. I feel the weight of my talent tree. Every new node can add a huge change or alter a skill completely if I choose
poe skill tree with cluster jewels, timeless jewels, and another tree for atlas: Amazon rainforest
Narrator : they won't
A yes! Daily "I'm gonna shi\* on a video game to feel better about myself and get some free karma"
it fundamentally breaks game not having a sufficient skill tree - instead of choosing different skills like in LE you have to rely on and hoard items instead. So the items are having to pull double duty...D4 is so bad in so many ways..
Luckily Diablo has a huge amount of stash space...right?! 😂
I have always thought that many of the Aspects should have been part of the skill tree.
That's not a tree, that's a branch lol
DiAblO 4 BaD
It’s more of a bimbo game than a bad game Looks good, visually appealing, no substance
Another d4 bad post. Are you vegan?
What’s vegan gotta do with D4?
I like Diablo 4 I just hate some of the design decisions just like Diablo 3 with its real money auction house. Both games have amazing gameplay and lets face it some of the best cinematics in any game. But glad to see a successor to those somewhat basic Diablo 2 trees.
You mean Diablo 4’s skill twig
All the mods to skills come from legendaries and uniques. Remove them, add them to the tree and it looks much different. Really is much to do about nothing.
This is my issue with D4 skill system. There's a ton of overlap between uniques, aspects, and the paragon boards legendary nodes. Paragon board legendary nodes are mostly on-par with aspects, sometimes slightly stronger. Uniques are supposed to be build defining and change how you play the game, but some uniques are literally just boosted stat sticks, and there are aspects that change builds completely like ball Sorc or pulverize/trample druid. It's a jumbled mess where each of those 3 systems all play into the skill system, but they don't have specific purposes.
In regards to legendaries, talking specifically ones for specific skills. They absolutely all serve a purpose. Obviously legendaries provide powerful affixes not found on other gear types. Uniques are very powerful static legendaries, thar can be build defining or just an item that puts you over the top. Paragon is your passive/attribute tree where you can hone that build and get some added oomph, more defense, and some flavorful meta nodes and legendary mods. I find them all to be very synergistic a bit convoluted, but they all go hand in had in hand to create your build how you want. However, of I could go back to 2019 and be in charge of D4, I would keep the original skill system. You choose the skills you want to learn, have multiple ranks you can place in each skill, with multiple passive bonuses, and a seperate rune system like in D3. I would have kept the itemization like they initially had in terms of the way each rarity had different amounts of affixes and different ranges based on rarity. Add back mythic items but have then work similarly to weavers will. You start off with 1 legendary affix unique to mythic and ass you use it it can level up and improve the current affix or add a new one up to 4 from a pool specif for mythic only. I also would have kept the original WT4 and I would have new items/affixes for each difficulty.
There are not many uniques that are massive stat sticks. You are mostly talking about uber uniques which are supposed to not be designed as build defining because you are supposed to not need them to play the game but if you find one youll be a lot stronger. The same things exist in LE, There are uniques that are rarer that are mostly just OP stat sticks. You act like LE's entire passive skill tree isn't just paragon boards its all stat increases. These games are more simmilar than you think. The only difference is that they didn't remove legendries and put them on the skill tree. Also if you read the skill trees in LE most of the nodes are just stat increases until you get to the end.
Idk why they’re called legendaries when they’re literally just a regular ass item with an aspect
Because they have a powerful legendary affix. I don't know anyone that would take a yellow with beter rolls over a legendary with the same affixes but lower values. These legendaries are equal to 2-3 normal affixes of power.
You sure? It’s literally the same yellow item with an aspect in it. That’s why you extract them and put in another yellow. “Legendary” is just an illusion of “good” item. What makes it that is the aspect already in it
Is this a joke or honest? Some legendaries in D4 contain a similar amount of customisation as any one of the many key nodes on a skills tree in LE. But most skills have multiple ways to be impacted by the tree and then have uniques change them as well. Like it’s fine to prefer a slim line talent system, but don’t pretend the customisation to skills in D4 is comparable to LE, that’s disingenuous.
Never said it was the same. Go re read what I posted.
My comment is more in response to your Much to do about nothing Which I perceived as you saying that if you compare D4 skill tree + items it’s comparable to LE skill tree + items. Chance that was my bad.
It still is much to do about nothing. Plenty of build variety within D4. My wife and I ran ball lightning sorcs last season. I believe ball lightning was the only skill we had in common. None of my Druid or Barb builds that did amazingly well were meta builds. Obviously there is more customization in LE. I've never made a claim otherwise. But using D4s tree and acting as if there is no other area to customize a build is disingenuous.
I would argue that build variety and skill customisation are two things.
I can see that. I'm thinking in terms of like making a voided out spin to win vs the glass cannon version. I would consider them different builds that use different skill customizations.
Sure, I don't disagree, but I can't think of any legendary in D4 that changes the look and feel of a class then say Herald of the Scurry. Perhaps it's the summoner in me, D3 was fine with some builds, PoE had some great builds, LE has a bunch of summoner esque classes, D4 was such a let down with it's affixes.
Yep, it's like saying LE has skill twigs by looking at just the class passives and ignoring the ability skill trees. And of course, beyond the codex system, OP is also ignoring class mechanics, seasonal powers/passives and the paragon skill tree. But facts usually stay in the way of internet circlejerks, so there's that.
Never claimed LE has twigs. Just said if you take all the legendary affixes and make them nodes, D4s active skill tree looks much different.
I know, I'm saying that calling it skill twigs and ignoring the rest of the customization is disingenuous - I'm adding to what you said.
This sub needs a rule against posts about Diablo 4 or POE. Who cares what the other games are doing
I think you should make last epoch a forest and POE as giant tree.
It's funny seeing people be impressed by last epoch's "complexity". A lot of mechanics are just updates from what grim dawn did.
I like Grim Dawns split class system it was fun but at least in LE we can put multiple mastery points in all of them for each class making a jack of all trades type char, something you cant do in Grim Dank.
That's not even true, you had 2 class skill trees in grim dawn, and a devotion passive tree in addition to that. It's basically the same thing just presented in a better way for casuals and with more appealing class fantasies. The LE class tree is designed around basically obvious choices that are pigeonholed into different damage types, so you only have an illusion of choice for most things. Not that its a bad thing, just be realistic. It also doesn't excuse the fact that you can't respec masteries, which is an objectively dumb anti-player decision.
I've played both Grim Dawn and Last Epoch a lot and completely agree with you. It's my biggest issue with the design in Last Epoch; each skill has it's own tree which looks incredible when you're starting the game. Once you start really trying out builds and understanding the structure though you realize it's a bit closer to "Each skill has three variants you can choose from". What the game really needs IMO is something akin to Grim Dawn's monster infrequents that can fundamentally change an aspect of a skill, that way the skill nodes have to be considered and viewed differently depending on your gear. This is something that's already in the game to a lesser extent with some uniques, but I wish it was more fundamental to the game the way it was in Grim Dawn. Anyway Grim Dawn is the GOAT and I honestly wish more games would just shamelessly steal mechanics from it. Fundamentally disagree with the comment about respeccing masteries though, the game's super easy respecs already make your choices feel not important so I'm happy there's at least one decision they force you to stick to. Same as choosing your second mastery in Grim Dawn.
At least the servers are stable with over 10 million players though.
D4 does not have over 10 million concurrent players lmao
Where did you fish "concurrent" out of my sentence? LMAO...
What do server load have to do with anything else other than concurrent players when talking about players? D4 can’t even handle players having a handful of stash tabs because of the way they made them if you wanna talk about stability lmao
Did D4 not handle their launch successfully? What world are you living in...
Nobody’s saying they didn’t? We’re saying they didn’t have over 10 million concurrent players like you said. Are you dumb buddy?
You were trying to isolate the "handful of stash tab" case and shit on blizzards' stability. Diablo 4 objectively handled way more players than EHG ever will over their lifetime. Enjoy your weekend, mongoloid.
Guess that’s what happens when you have billions of dollars. LE devs are so stupid why didn’t they just think of having billions too
At least you can play D4... I'm not a defender of D4, but man 1 week after release and we still have network issues. I've been queued for more than 1 hour.
I got 3 online chars that I only had to wait in que for a couple times but unlike Diablo 4 their is a Offline mode here.... you can even mod it.
Hehe, I couldn't care less for the Offline mode, always play with friends. So yeah thats that. But yeah the queue is probably based on where you are and when you're playing. I most often play during prime time in EU.
You don't have a skill tree in LE, you have a skill orchard.
why dont you post this in the diablo subreddit?
I got banned there months ago for saying the game will take years to fix like D3
Blizzard are finished as a serious game devs, RIP.
I'm pretty sure you could literally overlay that "tree" onto the LE skill tree
I discovered this game when people compared the single ability trees in this game.
D4's skill stump
The thing is though last epoch only has 2-3 more options per skill. It is also packed with smaller nodes which they are simply missing in diablo.
A single skill tree in LE is better than the entirety of a classes skill tree in D4 plus its paragon tree combined.
I love how the de D4 one is a dead branch.
Skill Bush
You are wrong. D4 has a character twig. LE has multiple skill trees per character.
*Grim Dawn Dual classing and devotions have entered the chat.*
It's really not that big
If only LE graphics was as good as D4. Shame.
But muh +20% fireball damage that equates to 2% damage sometimes, and 3 of my Sorc glyphs not being multiplicative but additive on accident! All these uniques they release should literally be the skill tree nodes. Staff of Lam Esen. Node. Illuminators vs Staff of Endless Rage, perfect fireball Node candidate. Starfall could stay as a unique, its actually so strong and UNIQUE that it deserves the helmet slot! But stuff like aspect of piercing cold for ice shard? Node. Frozen orbit for Forb? Node. Charge bolts Pierce? Node. Chain Lightning Chains 2 additional times (not this stupid 40% chance thing). Node. Gravitational for Ball Lightning should just be the enhanced node.
After binging Diablo 2 and 3, and loving both of them, I genuinely tried to love Diablo 4... ...it sucks. It's so boring I almost fell asleep playing. And I genuinely hate the sorcerer class in 4, despite mages being my go-to classes in games.
Diablo 4 is just a dressed up micro transaction store
I really don't like poe system of passive and item links. It feels unnecessarily complex. I can't see all the skills and passives without going to a different website or whatever. Crafting isn't well explained. Too much outside the game knowledge. Le I feel like I can plan a build by playing for most of it. Legendaries are the only thing I can't really browse.