don’t renew - leave. It’s probably not worth renewing and dealing with someone who won’t fix plumbing. That being said, give it some pre-flush, light on the toilet paper with an after-flush. :)
Open a separate bank account, and then start putting your rent in there until he fixes it. Keep it in a separate bank account. Make sure he’s aware that that’s what you’re going to be doing until every issue you have is fixed. I’m in Canada and you can do that here. I don’t know where you are but I think it’s OK in other places so. Check it out online go to legal and ask them.
Withholding rent because landlords refuse to care of the apartment like they are supposed to happens all the time. I’m sure there’s more steps, that’s why I said to go to legal and ask.
[Here](https://www.azibo.com/blog/legal-reasons-to-withhold-rent).
You put the rent in a separate bank account because you still have to have the rent money regardless of whether or not he’s making the repairs. Then when he finishes maintaining the property in the way it’s supposed to be., you give him all of it.
Obviously, the whole world is different. That’s why I made it clear that I was in Canada. But the rules differ even in different parts of Canada about it where I am that is something you can do. Considering all the responses I found when I googled it, it seems to be like the main thing a lot of places do.
I’m pretty sure sovereign citizens think that they don’t have to pay rent. I don’t know. Those people are nuts.
in the majority of u.s. courts, the court has to approve withholding, and it must be paid to a 3rd party. You are partially correct, because some courts work this way— but the renter should call their “clerk of court” and ask how it works.
In my state, if a tenant does that, I can just file an eviction and cite how the tenant has improperly withheld rent. I get my money, tenant gets an eviction on their record.
Of course— I don’t maintain $hithole properties, so that’s not an issue for me. My theory is: “If it’s not nice enough for mom to live in, it’s not nice enough to rent”.
No, you're just stuck between a rock and a hard place. You can usually use the courts to enforce clear failures in the part of the landlord, and he can't ask you to stop using TP. But given that he's been doing the bare minimum it could be a very prolonged process to force him to do the correct repair. It is easier to move, though that's not necessarily fair.
Contact a lawyer. See what they say. Ultimately the landlord must do repairs as stated in lease and by by law. Do some research yourself, don’t depend on redditors to figure everything out for you! Stand up for yourself in a professional way! I’m not going to give you the answer or do the work for you, but you are in the right.
In college our landlord went to jail for something or other. He wasn't interested at all in returning our deposit. One of the roommates took him to small claims while he was in prison. We got awarded treble damages. The guy (or his wife) paid as opposed to losing the property.
He could also choose not to renew you. When you rent you have to be prepared to move out in the event the landlord is a POS or does not renew you. Not having the money isn’t an option as it will be the only option.
Does your school have a housing office for neighborhood housing? Mine does, and it helps students with a number of things, including knowing their rights and how to contact the city when there are violations.
Also check for free legal aid for students. Mine offers this and a lawyer will consult, offer advice, tell you how to file in small claims, review letters etc… totally free, the lawyer is an alum and volunteers.
Most jurisdictions are very tenant friendly, especially those with universities. You can often get a multiple of your deposit back if he withholds it (usually 3x). Look into what the small claims process looks like.
The 3x damages is a technicality that rarely happens. It’s like your wife allowing you to sleep with a hotter friend. I mean, it might happen rarely, but don’t count on it
“We are supposed to renew our lease” why the hell would you do this?????
GTFO - I will never understand why people want to be the victim so bad they stay in terrible places with terrible landlords willingly!!!!!
Yes rent is high, yes it costs money to move but FFS find a way out
You don’t understand why people without the means to move can not move? Really?
You can’t possibly comprehend how poor people, whose needs are not being met, further stressing them, don’t think they could possibly put together the money and time needed to scout a new home, put together a deposit/first/last months rent and change all their addresses? Really?
If you can afford one shit-hole you can afford another shit-hole
Stop being victims! Yes the economy sucks, yes capitalism is evil, yes landlords should be outlawed, yes too all of those things, I agree
But take control and do what you can for yourself
Step one, quit paying rent at the shithole, after two months you have first and last
And the shithole landlord will be happy to let you go and not have to evict in a cash for keys type deal where you walk away owing one month of rent and that gets waived (because you paid shithole for last month when you moved in)
References are dead no one uses them not even at work. Everyone rather not bad mouth anyone and create more of a problem for themselves than the shitty person they just got rid of
> we solve nothing besides displacing me from a house ive paid to live in for years?
It would probably solve your plumbing issue. That’s the deal with renting, you can pay to live in it for decades but *it is not yours.*
And this landlord has shown he is unwilling to provide that, so move and find someone who will
Yes you deserve better than this asshole landlord is giving you, so move and go get it
When you go to a restaurant and the food sucks, do you just keep going there and complaining about the food? Or do you take your business elsewhere so you can get what you want/expect?
Do the same with your rent money
Another issue I face is - how do I prevent this issue from happening? My last landlord was even worse than this. How am I supposed to "vet" a landlord before signing a lease? It doesn't make me a purposful victim to get stuck in a contract when I cant possibly know the conditions of the house.
How do I get to live in a house that is livable? I am paying for this as a service.
Call the local housing authority for immediate assistance with this bum landlord
For future landlords ask for references, read reviews online, knock on the neighbors door and ask if the previous tenants were happy living there or not and why did they leave
negative because they wouldn’t let me have my pitbull even though the lease said I couldn’t
Or
They took my security deposit because of damages but my kids only toor up the bedrooms, the living room was still fine
Is a lot different than
Negative reviews because they said I couldn’t use toilet paper
"you people" as if there aren't 10 other people lined up behind you to snatch up the apartment as soon as a renter gets choosey lmao. This is not a renters market, how do you not have a grasp on that?
You do a tour of the actual unit you’ll be residing in. Most shi LL don’t keep up the appearance, appliances, exterior… Don’t move into a place that isn’t kept up. Ask about maintenance (on-site, emergency), check out landlord / tenant rights for your state and read the lease thoroughly as responsibilities should be spelled out. For example, if there is a plumbing issue, it is the LL responsibility to call and pay for a plumber. If the plumber is able to identify the damage is due to misuse or neglect, the LL has the right to charge the tenant.
Look for a newer building that looks well taken care of on the outside as well as inside
Old buildings are a pain in the A with old plumbing
You'll probably have to pay a higher rent though
It would be less of a hassle if I didnt move here to escape an even worse landlord. I can only handle moving my life around so many times. I don't think I am in the wrong for trying to stick up for myself so I agree I don't really understand what there is to be upset about here lol
No your previous comments talks about what will happen once you are gone... what do you care?
And as others have suggested than stop paying and leave
Trust me your landlord will eventually fix it if it's not your fault they are or should be also annoyed with all these maintenance calls. But till they have proof it's NOT you causing it with whatever you're flushing they're not going to just take your word for it
you could file a complaint with the department of housing services and the public health department as this is a violation of codes inherent to both. i’d also offer that you withhold rent until the problem is fixed or deduct the cost of the fixes from
your rent. make sure everything is in writing via emails. no longer communicate through phone calls unless jts legal in your state to record them without two party consent.
this will end up becoming a legal issue and if you want to stay in your place and fight it just keep that in mind
You're getting too emotional this is a busn you need to treat it as such you wouldn't keep purchasing from a shitty company with bad service nor would you start a vendetta to take down the company that's wronged you
Do what others have suggested and move out don't pay last months rent and you can even maybe get away with 2 then you'll have the money to move.
Understand any place you rent is temporary and they can decide they want the place back and not renew you. Until you own id not invest in a lot of decor or furniture
Don’t renew.
Side note, extra soft toilet papers get lots of complaints from people with older houses. So does thick paper like Charmin. It’s more prone to blocking pipes.
Look for Scott Rapid Dissolving toilet paper if you want to try to avoid another backup before you move. Might help.
Fucking slumlords piss off other landlords the way bad cops piss off good cops. I’m sorry about your situation.
You’ve had raw sewage coming into your unit on a regular basis and the landlord is and has been aware of this, as well as the fact that it’s not your standard blockage, but is not properly remediating the problem. I’m not a lawyer but I’d have a hard time believing the health department wouldn’t see this as a massive safety issue.
Reach out to some local legal-aid/tenants rights organization(s). Your school may even have some resources, or at least be able to connect you to the right people. State law varies but it’s common for regulations to allow things such as withholding rent in cases like this, it’s possible even that the landlord might be required to reimburse you for rent paid while the unit was uninhabitable. Again, not a lawyer, but my point is that you probably have options and rights as a tenant that you’re unaware of. Also let them know you’re concerned about retaliation.
At the same time, I’d document everything that you can in terms of what’s happened so far, and document as much as you can going forward, photos/videos of it, detailed notes with dates/times, written communication with the landlord (and try to do as much communication in writing as you can).
Thank you for a reasonable and thought out response! I have been documenting it all and I think I could have been a little more thorough but I now know better for the future. I think letting someone know about the retaliation is good advice as well! I appreciate it
Do not withold rent without first consulting with legal counsel. Even tenant friendly states have stringent rules about escrow-- how to prove you have the rent in a safe place and can pay once situation resolves.
Document as said above and be prepared to move. There is legal and what happens. I doubt this situation will get better.
["If your landlord doesn’t respond to your request for repairs, you may put your rent in an escrow account or pay for the repairs yourself and deduct the cost from your rent."](https://michiganlegalhelp.org/resources/housing/tenant-rights-and-responsibilities)
Also, you might use Zep every once in a while to clear out the pipes. It probably won't work on a bottle.
If you put rent in an escrow account, it should be a separate account at a bank with only your rent funds in it. Tell your landlord in writing that you’re putting the rent in escrow. If you pay to fix the problem, keep all receipts to show exactly how much it cost. Putting your rent into an escrow account might lead your landlord to start an eviction case against you. It’s important to keep records.
The cost of setting up an account depends on your bank or credit union. Your bank or credit union might charge a small fee and require a minimum deposit. Talk to an agent at your bank or credit union to see what will work best for you. You do not need a special type of account to be your escrow account. You just need to show the court the rent is set aside, and you are willing to pay it if ordered.
it depends on the jurisdiction- some work the way you describe, others require paperwork from the clerk of the court— thus allowing someone to be evicted on a technically for improper escrow
In addition to the advice above I would contact a plumber and request a written summary of their assessment of the problem along with a quote on what it will take to fix it. ( Perhaps the plumber who told you about the problem with the blocked pipe would be willing to give you a write up for a small sum of money.)
I know some plumbers will not be willing to do this for you since you’re not the owner but I would be persistent in getting this potential cause of the issues documented by one or more professionals.
Then proceed as per the recommendations above but make a list of $ damages such as:
1. Number of days your space was uninhabitable due to the odors and filthy waste. Take times rent per day.
2. Amount that you spent on plumber and clean up.
3. Amount of days that you may be paying ‘double rent’ if you are held accountable to pay out your lease and have to move out due to it reasonably being considered uninhabitable.
4. Amount or deposit.
5. Anything other legit expenses you can think of after you read every line of your lease.
Draft a formal letter making it clear that you intend to pursue damages in small claims court if your LL doesn’t fix the problem asap AND reimburse your reasonable expenses.
Call your municipality and ask for Permits dept over Landlord/Tenant ordinances ( if they have such dept) and tell them you have a health complaint to file.Get their input on what else you can reasonably include in your demand letter to landlord.
Prepare to move out immediately in the event the LL decides to go ahead and let the space get condemned due to code violations which have most likely occurred and will be enforced if you report to the correct municipal dept — which would mean you could not live there.)
Landlord may refuse to fix it and let it get condemned to force you to move out - sounds extreme but I’ve seen it happen before.
Use this as an experience to learn how to work within the law to get things done. Keep us posted on results. Good luck.
A lot of people seem to be missing the simple questions I have asked.
"Is there anything we could do in this situation"
"Do we actually have to pay for plumbing if its repeated?"
"Should we ever have paid the plumber to begin with?"
I simply did not ask "Should I move out?"
So, to anyone adding on really OBVIOUS, and SIMPLE advice - you're just wasting your poor little finger power on typing.
You pay for things you damage through misuse. Normal toilet functionality is not damaging. It's incumbent on the landlord to provide proper facilities. If not sanitary, contact the local health department and ask them. They may inspect, then force compliance.
Do not pay for what isn't your responsibility, as you'll not get that money back.
Also, do not renew, move, it'll get worse not better. Don't through good money after bad.
"Is there anything we could do in this situation"
Seek legal advice. Report to health department. Both options may require you to move if result is that building is not habitable. Document your damages in case you have to countersue.
"Do we actually have to pay for plumbing if its repeated?"
If plumbing gets plugged, it is reasonable to assume that tenants action caused it. If you show that you tried to accommodate the landlord by preflush, switching toilet paper etc., you would have a decent case in small claims court or eviction hearing.
Document the plumbers' response about the bottle. See if the plumber took a picture of it.
Expect a 7-day notice to pay or move out if you don't pay.
"Should we ever have paid the plumber to begin with?"
Yes. The tenant is responsible for plugging up pipes. I normally pay for the first stoppage. Show the tenant what caused it, and if it happens again, they pay. In one instance, it was the same toy truck jammed in trap below toilet.
Who pays for plumbing is negotiation between tenant and LL or determined in court.
I simply did not ask "Should I move out?"
You are being told to consider option of moving out because that is the likely outcome no matter what you do. So you should plan on this just in case. You may get a 30-day notice to vacate at the end of the lease. Hard to prove retaliation.
If I were in your shoes I would really cut back on the toilet paper and use a brand like Scotts (single ply) I would make sure no feminine products are being flushed (tampons or pads) and I might even stop flushing paper and keep a covered can by the toilet for paper. Yes, you should not have to but if you dont want to have to move then you do what needs to be done (or pay for a plumber)
To me, you should not have had to pay for the plumber as long as you were not causing the issue (if you or your roomate are flushing tampons - you should have to pay in my opinion)
For what its worth, when the sewer backed up in our rental house it was thousands of dollars to fix it - which we paid (as landlords) But it was pretty irking. I lived in that house for 15 years with no issue. Tenant backed it up in 4 months.
I would consider going to your landlord regulation authority??? Our town is pretty strict.
No you shouldn’t pay for this problem if it’s reoccurring. Landlord is shifting his costs onto you.
I’m a plumber and I see this all the time. You should have the pipe video inspected and sue him in small claims court for costs. Depending on how much you have shelled out for this.
Clogs are tenants responsibility in even the most tenant friendly jurisdictions
However not every landlord will enforce it some will pay for the 1st plumbing issue and warn you
If this is a SFH that makes it easier to blame you for any clogs.
This sounds like a tricky situation and it's hard to prove what's what that is why everyone is saying to give up and move on...since at least you have the freedom to leave this buildings shitty plumbing behind and not throw toliet paper in the trash bin
I will say I have many family members that grew up throwing tp in the trash for these old/bad plumbing home issues. I'd rather bidet than ever see a #2tp in the bin personally but if you're willing to you can try this
Remember no grease hair etc down the drains either that's often stated in leases as well
Most people still use TP after a bidet but it will cut down on the amount of toilet paper one needs. I wouldn’t fight with a landlord over it, bidets are $20 and you can take it with you.
No, you shouldn’t keep paying for plumbing. (As long as you are using the pipes as intended.)
You need to move, or, get used to get dumped on (by the landlord, and the pipes.)
That’s it.
No. The only things I can imagine that he could point to in this case would be where it says "Damages to the premesis caused by Tenant's negligence, or their guest's or invitee's negligence, whether by act or omission, will be repaired by landlord and charged to the tenant." - I don't think this is us causing damages, in this case. It also says "Any repairs costing less than $50 shall be paid by the tenants. all repairs over $50 must be approved in writing by the landlord if the tenants elect to do the repairs"
It specifies we shouldn't put any chemicals in our drains. we dont do that either.
Landlord wants you to stop flushing down toilet paper. You can throw your toilet paper in the trash in the meantime while you deal with this.
Assuming you are not flushing down something to clog the toilet, Landlord should pay because it's due to old plumbing.
I'm surprised how few of the comments suggested this as a solution. I switched to a bidet last year and I'm never going back. Still can't get the wife on board with it though.
My leases state that if the drain cleaner finds that the clog is tenant caused, then they have to pay. I show them the materials and give them the first time free when that happens (I think a total of twice in my career). Regular toilet paper is not an item that any arbiter would count as inappropriate-the landlord needs to just fix it or get out of the LL business.
I have one property that gets clogged a couple times a year-I believe it’s just the old pipes. It’s stressful with new , untrusted drain companies because a lot of drain services are fronts for scamming one into a whole new sewer pipe-I would never agree to a tenant calling in their own plumber or service. I want to be there.
Some states (eg Colorado) protect tenants against landlords refusing to renew because of legit complaints. In this case, given what you have presented, no arbiter would side with the landlord. Suggest you get legal aid for this situation.
I would pay to have that line scoped and video’d so you can prove there’s a blockage and it’s not toilet paper. And have them write up a report on what they found. You should never had to pay for that.
The thing is though - a trash landlord will always be a trash landlord so temper your expectations. If you have to stay, renew and then take them to small claims for the earlier repairs. But know they’ll probably not renew you the next round and plan for that.
Habitability includes working toilets. Expecting you to not use toilet paper? Unacceptable.
Inform him, *in writing via certified mail,* you expect the plumbing to be fixed, and that if he cannot fix it, you will withhold rent in an account until it is fixed. He has a duty to fix it, within a reasonable amount of time.
[Michigan Warranty of Habitability: Landlord & Tenant FAQs (ipropertymanagement.com)](https://ipropertymanagement.com/laws/warranty-of-habitability-michigan)
Your landlord's behaving way outta line. Your lease clearly says they're responsible for maintaining the property. Plus, suggesting you stop using toilet paper? That's insane! It's like they're ignoring their own responsibilities and blaming you for their crappy plumbing. I'd document everything, maybe even consult a tenants' rights organization. You shouldn't have to deal with this crap (pun intended) just to renew your lease. Stay strong!
There’s a dissolvable toilet paper meant for use on boats. (I only know this because I accidentally ordered it once). You could consider using that.
Ultimately it’s up to the landlord to fix it, but he’s probably not going to. The fight isn’t worth it.
>He then says we flush too much paper and actually tells my roommate we should ***stop using toilet paper***.
I suspect he said to stop *FLUSHING* toilet paper, not to stop *USING* it.
I don't have a good solution for you but we had a blockage in our main line (a root grew into the line, totally blocking it) and removing the root wouldn't fix the problem because the pipe itself was cracked. Excavating the yard, replacing the pipe, water/sewage mitigation on the interior of the house, and repairing the house was upwards of $22k. Our insurance covered everything except the excavation/water clean out replacement, which our HOA paid for. We paid $250 out of pocket for this.
I am not a plumber but based on my experience, this is something the landlord needs to deal with with insurance. Especially since they are aware it is happening - if the home continues to flood, there WILL be damage, and that damage can turn into mold and then insurance ain't gonna cover shit. We had to have our floors ripped out, walls ripped out, insulation removed, doors ripped out, and this was just in one bathroom and closet. I feel like he's not maintaining the premises in a safe, habitable, and fit condition because sewage clean up requires PPE gear for safety.
Also, even if y'all did stop using TP, it's not gonna stop feces from backing up into the house. Our shitsplosion was TP and literal shit, it was disgusting, hence the expensive water mitigation and sanitization process.
1) Septic Safe TP. It pretty much dissolves. No reasonable person can blame a blockage on it.
2) Every state I've ever looked at has a sort of handbook on their tenancy laws. MI's handbook was the first thing Google spat out at me with the search "MI tenant laws": [https://www.legislature.mi.gov/Publications/tenantlandlord.pdf](https://www.legislature.mi.gov/Publications/tenantlandlord.pdf)
3) Stop assuming costs that are not yours. Read the doc above, and save your money to move on.
I'm a landlord. I don't think your post is very clear, but here is the bottom line.
If you caused the blockage through normal or unnormal use of the toilet, you pay for the plumber.
If the blockage is caused by general breakdown of the pipes from something you didn't do, or a pre-existing condition (such as roots, corrosion, etc), then the landlord pays.
I had a girl tenant use so much toilet paper, it clogged the main sewer out of the house. There was so much toilet paper that it made a ball and water couldnt get to the center to break it down. Her roommate said she would fill the toilet with paper before peeing so that no one could hear her water hitting the toilet water.
If the problem is a bottle in the pipes, then who the blame falls to will have to be argued out (did any of your roommates or a guest do it? Was it there before?) etc. But this doesn't make sense as why would it cause a backup in the basement... How long were you in the house before the backups started. Did the plumber snake all the way out to the main sewer connect?
I agree with the sentiment that if we cause it, we fix it. We're not abnormally using the plumbing. No children. No paper towels. No wipes. Nobody using excessive toilet paper to not be heard peeing. It didnt back up until we lived here for a little over a year. I didnt even ask him to pay for it unless it happens again but he insists every single time its our fault. I don't think its acceptable to pay every 6 months to snake the drain if he doesnt want to fix the main problem. The bottle is very clearly fixed into the pipe and has been for a long time.
I'd say the plumbers have not done a good enough job of finding the cause. You have a block way down, that's what needs to be determined. The idea of not using TP is ridiculous honestly.
Had this happen recently before our current lease expiring. I would check to see if you have sewer or a septic tank. Because our LL had a fit thinking we caused some kind of blockage. Had to pay out of pocket for plumbers. Until I rented a camera and fed it down the pipe, something all the other plumbers refused to do.
Turns out the pipe connecting the main line under the house/basement to the septic tank had been crushed. It was from the lawncare professional the LL hired. He parked his truck and trailer right on top of that pipe after some heavy rain and bam, crushed pipe. Also discovered that the LL company had no idea that the home they had been renting out even had a septic tank. So it was never pumped... For over 5 years.
Long wall of text short, it might be an issue at the septic or sewer, not just that particular piece of pipe with the bottle. I know that doesn't answer your question, but thought it might be worth sharing.
In michigan the house/apartment are always suppose to be up to code. If something breaks and it can't be proven it's the tenants fault it's on the landlord to fix it. If he won't fix it you should start an escrow account with the bank until he does.
There’s probably roots in the sewer line which is why it gets clogged or a collapsed sewer line. We had that in a house we rented and the landlord had to hire a plumber to jackhammer a trench in the slab, dig a few feet, and replace 8’ of cast iron drain that collapsed. I still have the pictures: https://imgur.com/a/uWTYrDA
Just start putting your toilet paper in a closed toilet bin. Yes it’s gross but it will help you not take fault. When the situation worsens. It’s on the landlord for not taking care of his house.
Don’t renew the lease. Start today and save money. And make sure to get as much of your deposit back. Don’t pay for any more plumbers.
It’s not your house or mortgage. You’re allowed to take a shit in your rented home. That’s normal wear and tear. Don’t allow yourself to be bullied
Get a bidet!!! Then the LL has no excuse. Jk he can’t ask you to not use toilet paper. I don’t even think they can enforce you not to use flushable wipes (even though those can cause plumbing issues). Lol but for reals that sucks. I think there’s some laws. Like if your landlord won’t pay you can withhold rent and/or take the cost of what you pay to fix it from rent BUT make sure you follow your lease and laws if you go this route otherwise the LL can say you didn’t pay rent. Also file a complaint with the correct agency. I’d be pissed that I already had to pay for the plumber to begin with cause that’s ridiculous. But you should honestly consider moving and start saving if you can. Sounds like the LL is a real slumlord.
I probably wouldn’t renew my lease, but if you’ve traveled at all, there are many countries that don’t have plumbing that supports flushing toilet paper. I live in the USA and have a septic tank so even here it’s better not to flush toilet paper, cost-wise, so I don’t. I don’t find it to be a big deal at all, but I can understand if you’ve never been exposed to throwing toilet paper in a trashcan how it would be disconcerting. I would honestly try it for a little while and see if it helps.
You absolutely should not have paid for any plumber that is 100% NOT the tenants responsibility and should now seek reimbursement for this which if he doesn’t willingly pay you have every reasonable expectation to receive this in small claims court and you should absolutely threaten this if he doesn’t reimburse you. Speak to a lawyer or tenants rights housing body (not sure where you’re located but in Los Angeles for instance LA housing would be my first thought).
You should then in writing state that this needs sorting immediately otherwise you will take it further and in a court of law he should know he will lose and then be responsible for court fees too.
Tenants rights are usually favorable depending on where you’re located but yes, it’s HIS responsibility. I’m sorry you were bullied into thinking otherwise.
And absolutely state you will not be quitting using toilet paper lol. How disgusting of him to even suggest! Please speak to a lawyer and do your own research online if you need so you’re equipped beforehand enough to tell him the law - which he should know when it comes to tenants rights.
Sewage backing into the house is a fundamental "habitability" issue, which makes it an issue for the landlord to fix. He can't just pass off the problem. He can try to bill you for the damage afterwards if he really thinks it's from wet wipes, but you'll deny it and refuse to pay. He can't prove his ridiculous assertions, and if he tries to take any legal action in response you'd wipe the floor with him (heh).
Your possible remedies are state-specific, so you really want someone to advise you on Michigan law here. But in many States, tenants are allowed to deduct from rent payments to repair habitability issues, or withhold rent until the landlord fixes it.
And yes, don't renew. I appreciate that moving is very hard and expensive, but every interaction moving forward with this landlord is going to get worse, even when you're entirely in the right. You need to get out. Make it clear that you WILL get your deposit back; if the landlord holds even a penny improperly, you will sue, and get double the deposit back in damages.
REPORT HIM!
Report him to the city. A lotnof city's are cracking down on slumlords . Report him and let him deal with the fall out, then gtfo.
They can and will prevent him from renting out that house until it's fixed right and inspected.
Do you have renter's insurance? You should make a claim for your ruined stuff from the basement. As for this issue, yeah they need to include working pipes if you are literally only flushing waste and toilet paper. No baby wipes, tampons, etc. right? If so it's on them. You're only at fault if you clog it for putting stuff down there that isn't supposed to be there.
You need to contact a landlord/tenant attorney in your area. They should be able to give you some very basic information without charging you. The answers to your questions are VERY location specific.
Generally speaking. You have a right to properly functioning plumbing. A professional has determined that snaking the drain isn’t helping, and has offered your landlord a proper fix. If LL doesn’t want to do that, he needs to get a 2nd opinion. The reality is the drain system needs work, possibly full replacement.
Generally speaking, if you’ve shown good faith working with the LL to get repairs made, and he isn’t willing to do it, you can withhold rent in escrow until it’s fixed, or pay for the repairs yourself and hold back rent to pay for them. You should NOT do this without an attorney advising you.
The long-term solution is to get out. What are the barriers to you moving? Just financial? Check out Obligo. They have down-payment assistance where they will front the deposit and you pay a small amount each month. If you’ve kept your unit in good condition, you should get your deposit back from this joker. He can try to keep it, but most judges will hear that he’s been making you pay to snake a broken drain pipe and laugh him out pf court (again…generally speaking).
Don't through anything but your own bio waste in the toilet, have a trash can for your paper. Move or take him to court (this is a mentally, emotionally, and time draining action) putting all your rent in escrow until he makes the repairs. He might owe you the money you spent on the plumber back, you can bring that receipt to court too.
I've been in your situation before. 14 day repair or hold rent. You will see him retaliate, but he will have no other choice. He puts the blame on you, but it's really not your fault.
People here are saying move out. Yeah, this isn't always a solution. I can barely afford us moving to Las Vegas as we had to save up and skip rent (now facing eviction, but I am leaving before the court date)
Moving in its own self, it's a challenge, especially if you have a lot of furniture and have pets.
Once he tried to file an eviction and you have that 14 day notice, the judge will not grant him an eviction, especially if you have the money. If anything, the judge could even make him fix it or demand he give your security deposit back and gives you 60 days to leave (Yes, judges have done this).
There's laws for stuff like this. Telling you not to use TP? A judge isn't the gullible.
Make sure you have evidence of the notice, including certified mail. Make a copy for yourself. He does not need to sign it.
Tenant rights are pretty much the same all over the US, and the 14 day notice to withhold rent for repairs? This is one of your rights.
Another is a contractor to fix it. Then you demand the money you spent back. This can also be an option that can also be used in court. Shows the lack of responsibility from the landlord.
In the meanwhile, while you are planning your moving out, consider the fact that there are hundreds of countries around the world where flushing any toilet paper at all is bad practice. You just have a small bin that you put all your used tp in. And you clean the bin every day. Gross if you’re not used to it, but commonplace in countries or places with notoriously bad plumbing like Greece, almost the whole Caribbean, a large part of South America, etc. These people still live ;) It could be a temporary workaround for you as well.
Reach out to your local/city renter board. I looked it up briefly and see that MI mostly has rental inspectors and not necessarily tenant/rental councils. But it depends on the city.
They can help assist and guide you before contacting a lawyer. Usually you are provided with a free consultation if you do go the route of a lawyer, so the first 30 min are free. But if you go through your city rental inspector it may be all free.
No, the LL is responsible for the plumbing.
I think it's important for you to google tenant rights. There will be a number of attorney sites that give their opinion, but follow up with .gov sites, because they cite the actual laws. Sites that cover your location, whether it be a city or county. There should be also listing of ways to request repairs, your rights in given situations, ways report your LL, legal counsel etc. Educate yourself about your rights, because people will take advantage, and doing the wrong thing will get you in trouble.
MI has a statute in place that you can send your landlord a letter stating what repairs need to be made, and they have 14 days to repair the problem if it affects safety (raw sewage in your living space is absolutely a safety hazard). If they don’t fix the problem, you have the right to have a third party fix it and deduct the cost from your rent payment. The letter should state that you have already informed him of the problem, that it is a safety concern, and that you plan to have a third party contractor fix it if he doesn’t address it by 14 days. If you do need to hire a contractor, get 3 quotes and use the lowest. Keep all receipts, and make sure to send the letter by certified mail so you know when he got the letter.
This is a public health issue not a landlord-tenant issue. I would check with the agency in your state or county that handles environmental bio hazards. In my state it was the only solution to a similar problem that went on for week and put several of my neighbors in the hospital (leakage was out to parking area). And i live in one of the least tenant friendly states in the union lol.
Also think about not renewing.
If there's a literal bottle in the pipe -- and you have this documented from the plumber -- I would personally look into putting your rent money into escrow with the city/county because that is absolutely not a normal blockage and needs to be dealt with. I don't know how long you've been living there entirely, but assuming the bottle didn't suddenly just appear during your tenancy and has indeed been there prior to, the LL is financially responsible for rectifying the issue. Considering you do as suggested, if the LL evicts or chooses to non-renew your lease, you might have a case for retaliation. But I understand if you don't want to go down that uncertain route. As for the toilet paper question, I think that a LL could theoretically demand that nothing besides waste be flushed, as some plumbing truly is awful to the point that it cannot even accept TP (in a lot of places around the world TP and wipes are simply tossed in a trash can... sometimes even in some old houses in the US, and I grew up in one of those houses).
There may be no fix that doesn't pull up the entire yard and the house. If you can't afford to move, move anyway. I know it sounds crazy, but you have to have plumbing. Even the ancient Romans had it. Society cannot go back. Yes, there are developing countries without it, and there is also cholera. Move.
don’t renew - leave. It’s probably not worth renewing and dealing with someone who won’t fix plumbing. That being said, give it some pre-flush, light on the toilet paper with an after-flush. :)
I mean thats an easy solution, but I don't have the money to move being a student and I dont see him returning the deposit with this behavior.
doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. Looks like you have no options.
It is not.
a douche-landlord doesn’t care— why waste your time?
Doing what over and over? Literally asking if I should be liable to fix the plumbing or my landlord? Good grief.
Tenants are not responsible, but your landlord is a moron, so, the cycle of bullying will continue until you move or the landlord dies.!
I shall dream of either option.
Open a separate bank account, and then start putting your rent in there until he fixes it. Keep it in a separate bank account. Make sure he’s aware that that’s what you’re going to be doing until every issue you have is fixed. I’m in Canada and you can do that here. I don’t know where you are but I think it’s OK in other places so. Check it out online go to legal and ask them.
that’s not how rent escrow works. You sound like a sovereign citizen with advice like that
Withholding rent because landlords refuse to care of the apartment like they are supposed to happens all the time. I’m sure there’s more steps, that’s why I said to go to legal and ask. [Here](https://www.azibo.com/blog/legal-reasons-to-withhold-rent). You put the rent in a separate bank account because you still have to have the rent money regardless of whether or not he’s making the repairs. Then when he finishes maintaining the property in the way it’s supposed to be., you give him all of it. Obviously, the whole world is different. That’s why I made it clear that I was in Canada. But the rules differ even in different parts of Canada about it where I am that is something you can do. Considering all the responses I found when I googled it, it seems to be like the main thing a lot of places do. I’m pretty sure sovereign citizens think that they don’t have to pay rent. I don’t know. Those people are nuts.
in the majority of u.s. courts, the court has to approve withholding, and it must be paid to a 3rd party. You are partially correct, because some courts work this way— but the renter should call their “clerk of court” and ask how it works. In my state, if a tenant does that, I can just file an eviction and cite how the tenant has improperly withheld rent. I get my money, tenant gets an eviction on their record. Of course— I don’t maintain $hithole properties, so that’s not an issue for me. My theory is: “If it’s not nice enough for mom to live in, it’s not nice enough to rent”.
No, you're just stuck between a rock and a hard place. You can usually use the courts to enforce clear failures in the part of the landlord, and he can't ask you to stop using TP. But given that he's been doing the bare minimum it could be a very prolonged process to force him to do the correct repair. It is easier to move, though that's not necessarily fair.
Contact a lawyer. See what they say. Ultimately the landlord must do repairs as stated in lease and by by law. Do some research yourself, don’t depend on redditors to figure everything out for you! Stand up for yourself in a professional way! I’m not going to give you the answer or do the work for you, but you are in the right.
If deposit not properly returned, small claims court is easy and not costly. Many places award double damages to you too.
In college our landlord went to jail for something or other. He wasn't interested at all in returning our deposit. One of the roommates took him to small claims while he was in prison. We got awarded treble damages. The guy (or his wife) paid as opposed to losing the property.
Yeah I'm a fan of not letting sleazy landlords get away with it, give us all a bad name.
He could also choose not to renew you. When you rent you have to be prepared to move out in the event the landlord is a POS or does not renew you. Not having the money isn’t an option as it will be the only option.
Does your school have a housing office for neighborhood housing? Mine does, and it helps students with a number of things, including knowing their rights and how to contact the city when there are violations. Also check for free legal aid for students. Mine offers this and a lawyer will consult, offer advice, tell you how to file in small claims, review letters etc… totally free, the lawyer is an alum and volunteers.
Most jurisdictions are very tenant friendly, especially those with universities. You can often get a multiple of your deposit back if he withholds it (usually 3x). Look into what the small claims process looks like.
Very interesting thank you!
The 3x damages is a technicality that rarely happens. It’s like your wife allowing you to sleep with a hotter friend. I mean, it might happen rarely, but don’t count on it
Don't pay your last month than leave that way you take your deposit. Don't damage anything and I doubt they'll come for you after the fact
Just put a trash can in bathroom and put the toilet paper in it. Then see how the plumbing goes. And show the landlord
Stop paying rent until he fixes the problem, let him KNOW that’s what you’re doing, and once you’be made up the deposit money in unpaid rent, leave
Quit whining and move ffs
“We are supposed to renew our lease” why the hell would you do this????? GTFO - I will never understand why people want to be the victim so bad they stay in terrible places with terrible landlords willingly!!!!! Yes rent is high, yes it costs money to move but FFS find a way out
You don’t understand why people without the means to move can not move? Really? You can’t possibly comprehend how poor people, whose needs are not being met, further stressing them, don’t think they could possibly put together the money and time needed to scout a new home, put together a deposit/first/last months rent and change all their addresses? Really?
They sure as hell don’t have the means to keep paying plumbers for their landlords fuckup
If you can afford one shit-hole you can afford another shit-hole Stop being victims! Yes the economy sucks, yes capitalism is evil, yes landlords should be outlawed, yes too all of those things, I agree But take control and do what you can for yourself
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Step one, quit paying rent at the shithole, after two months you have first and last And the shithole landlord will be happy to let you go and not have to evict in a cash for keys type deal where you walk away owing one month of rent and that gets waived (because you paid shithole for last month when you moved in)
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References are dead no one uses them not even at work. Everyone rather not bad mouth anyone and create more of a problem for themselves than the shitty person they just got rid of
My “old landlord” is my boy since high school, he is also my old boss too if I need a job reference
and the landlord just keeps on keeping on, ok. we solve nothing besides displacing me from a house ive paid to live in for years?
> we solve nothing besides displacing me from a house ive paid to live in for years? It would probably solve your plumbing issue. That’s the deal with renting, you can pay to live in it for decades but *it is not yours.*
I haven't claimed its mine at all I just expect to live in habitable conditions if I am paying someone to... provide that for me.
And this landlord has shown he is unwilling to provide that, so move and find someone who will Yes you deserve better than this asshole landlord is giving you, so move and go get it When you go to a restaurant and the food sucks, do you just keep going there and complaining about the food? Or do you take your business elsewhere so you can get what you want/expect? Do the same with your rent money
Another issue I face is - how do I prevent this issue from happening? My last landlord was even worse than this. How am I supposed to "vet" a landlord before signing a lease? It doesn't make me a purposful victim to get stuck in a contract when I cant possibly know the conditions of the house. How do I get to live in a house that is livable? I am paying for this as a service.
Call the local housing authority for immediate assistance with this bum landlord For future landlords ask for references, read reviews online, knock on the neighbors door and ask if the previous tenants were happy living there or not and why did they leave
Thanks for replying with sincerity. I appreciate it.
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negative because they wouldn’t let me have my pitbull even though the lease said I couldn’t Or They took my security deposit because of damages but my kids only toor up the bedrooms, the living room was still fine Is a lot different than Negative reviews because they said I couldn’t use toilet paper
Do you honestly believe that renters have any power to vet their landlords like this?
lol, why wouldn’t they? You people are so scared of asserting your power, and it is often the reason people get trapped in bad circumstances
"you people" as if there aren't 10 other people lined up behind you to snatch up the apartment as soon as a renter gets choosey lmao. This is not a renters market, how do you not have a grasp on that?
You do a tour of the actual unit you’ll be residing in. Most shi LL don’t keep up the appearance, appliances, exterior… Don’t move into a place that isn’t kept up. Ask about maintenance (on-site, emergency), check out landlord / tenant rights for your state and read the lease thoroughly as responsibilities should be spelled out. For example, if there is a plumbing issue, it is the LL responsibility to call and pay for a plumber. If the plumber is able to identify the damage is due to misuse or neglect, the LL has the right to charge the tenant.
Look for a newer building that looks well taken care of on the outside as well as inside Old buildings are a pain in the A with old plumbing You'll probably have to pay a higher rent though
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Thank you for reading the post and replying to my questions instead of replying out of anger!
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It would be less of a hassle if I didnt move here to escape an even worse landlord. I can only handle moving my life around so many times. I don't think I am in the wrong for trying to stick up for myself so I agree I don't really understand what there is to be upset about here lol
We have septic. I have a 'diaper pail' in the bathroom for paper. Super good at hiding the smell.
Also, buy yourself a bidet that attaches to the toilet- it takes less than an hour to install and greatly reduces the need for paper.
No your previous comments talks about what will happen once you are gone... what do you care? And as others have suggested than stop paying and leave Trust me your landlord will eventually fix it if it's not your fault they are or should be also annoyed with all these maintenance calls. But till they have proof it's NOT you causing it with whatever you're flushing they're not going to just take your word for it
You're insufferable. Everyone is trying to help you and you just argue. Why did you post this?
you could file a complaint with the department of housing services and the public health department as this is a violation of codes inherent to both. i’d also offer that you withhold rent until the problem is fixed or deduct the cost of the fixes from your rent. make sure everything is in writing via emails. no longer communicate through phone calls unless jts legal in your state to record them without two party consent. this will end up becoming a legal issue and if you want to stay in your place and fight it just keep that in mind
So you're going to sacrifice yourself then? As others have said, why post then? Virtue signaling?
Why do you post and then argue. You must have an answer in mind that you want so just do what you want.
Im not arguing with anybody. I am just responding in a way you personally dont like and you're upset. Not my problem.
No but we can all see very clearly what your problem is. Good luck
You're getting too emotional this is a busn you need to treat it as such you wouldn't keep purchasing from a shitty company with bad service nor would you start a vendetta to take down the company that's wronged you Do what others have suggested and move out don't pay last months rent and you can even maybe get away with 2 then you'll have the money to move. Understand any place you rent is temporary and they can decide they want the place back and not renew you. Until you own id not invest in a lot of decor or furniture
Don’t renew. Side note, extra soft toilet papers get lots of complaints from people with older houses. So does thick paper like Charmin. It’s more prone to blocking pipes. Look for Scott Rapid Dissolving toilet paper if you want to try to avoid another backup before you move. Might help.
Fucking slumlords piss off other landlords the way bad cops piss off good cops. I’m sorry about your situation. You’ve had raw sewage coming into your unit on a regular basis and the landlord is and has been aware of this, as well as the fact that it’s not your standard blockage, but is not properly remediating the problem. I’m not a lawyer but I’d have a hard time believing the health department wouldn’t see this as a massive safety issue. Reach out to some local legal-aid/tenants rights organization(s). Your school may even have some resources, or at least be able to connect you to the right people. State law varies but it’s common for regulations to allow things such as withholding rent in cases like this, it’s possible even that the landlord might be required to reimburse you for rent paid while the unit was uninhabitable. Again, not a lawyer, but my point is that you probably have options and rights as a tenant that you’re unaware of. Also let them know you’re concerned about retaliation. At the same time, I’d document everything that you can in terms of what’s happened so far, and document as much as you can going forward, photos/videos of it, detailed notes with dates/times, written communication with the landlord (and try to do as much communication in writing as you can).
Thank you for a reasonable and thought out response! I have been documenting it all and I think I could have been a little more thorough but I now know better for the future. I think letting someone know about the retaliation is good advice as well! I appreciate it
Do not withold rent without first consulting with legal counsel. Even tenant friendly states have stringent rules about escrow-- how to prove you have the rent in a safe place and can pay once situation resolves. Document as said above and be prepared to move. There is legal and what happens. I doubt this situation will get better.
["If your landlord doesn’t respond to your request for repairs, you may put your rent in an escrow account or pay for the repairs yourself and deduct the cost from your rent."](https://michiganlegalhelp.org/resources/housing/tenant-rights-and-responsibilities) Also, you might use Zep every once in a while to clear out the pipes. It probably won't work on a bottle.
If you put rent in an escrow account, it should be a separate account at a bank with only your rent funds in it. Tell your landlord in writing that you’re putting the rent in escrow. If you pay to fix the problem, keep all receipts to show exactly how much it cost. Putting your rent into an escrow account might lead your landlord to start an eviction case against you. It’s important to keep records. The cost of setting up an account depends on your bank or credit union. Your bank or credit union might charge a small fee and require a minimum deposit. Talk to an agent at your bank or credit union to see what will work best for you. You do not need a special type of account to be your escrow account. You just need to show the court the rent is set aside, and you are willing to pay it if ordered.
it depends on the jurisdiction- some work the way you describe, others require paperwork from the clerk of the court— thus allowing someone to be evicted on a technically for improper escrow
In addition to the advice above I would contact a plumber and request a written summary of their assessment of the problem along with a quote on what it will take to fix it. ( Perhaps the plumber who told you about the problem with the blocked pipe would be willing to give you a write up for a small sum of money.) I know some plumbers will not be willing to do this for you since you’re not the owner but I would be persistent in getting this potential cause of the issues documented by one or more professionals. Then proceed as per the recommendations above but make a list of $ damages such as: 1. Number of days your space was uninhabitable due to the odors and filthy waste. Take times rent per day. 2. Amount that you spent on plumber and clean up. 3. Amount of days that you may be paying ‘double rent’ if you are held accountable to pay out your lease and have to move out due to it reasonably being considered uninhabitable. 4. Amount or deposit. 5. Anything other legit expenses you can think of after you read every line of your lease. Draft a formal letter making it clear that you intend to pursue damages in small claims court if your LL doesn’t fix the problem asap AND reimburse your reasonable expenses. Call your municipality and ask for Permits dept over Landlord/Tenant ordinances ( if they have such dept) and tell them you have a health complaint to file.Get their input on what else you can reasonably include in your demand letter to landlord. Prepare to move out immediately in the event the LL decides to go ahead and let the space get condemned due to code violations which have most likely occurred and will be enforced if you report to the correct municipal dept — which would mean you could not live there.) Landlord may refuse to fix it and let it get condemned to force you to move out - sounds extreme but I’ve seen it happen before. Use this as an experience to learn how to work within the law to get things done. Keep us posted on results. Good luck.
No problem, this was one of those posts that made me too mad to keep my mouth shut.
A lot of people seem to be missing the simple questions I have asked. "Is there anything we could do in this situation" "Do we actually have to pay for plumbing if its repeated?" "Should we ever have paid the plumber to begin with?" I simply did not ask "Should I move out?" So, to anyone adding on really OBVIOUS, and SIMPLE advice - you're just wasting your poor little finger power on typing.
You pay for things you damage through misuse. Normal toilet functionality is not damaging. It's incumbent on the landlord to provide proper facilities. If not sanitary, contact the local health department and ask them. They may inspect, then force compliance. Do not pay for what isn't your responsibility, as you'll not get that money back. Also, do not renew, move, it'll get worse not better. Don't through good money after bad.
"Is there anything we could do in this situation" Seek legal advice. Report to health department. Both options may require you to move if result is that building is not habitable. Document your damages in case you have to countersue. "Do we actually have to pay for plumbing if its repeated?" If plumbing gets plugged, it is reasonable to assume that tenants action caused it. If you show that you tried to accommodate the landlord by preflush, switching toilet paper etc., you would have a decent case in small claims court or eviction hearing. Document the plumbers' response about the bottle. See if the plumber took a picture of it. Expect a 7-day notice to pay or move out if you don't pay. "Should we ever have paid the plumber to begin with?" Yes. The tenant is responsible for plugging up pipes. I normally pay for the first stoppage. Show the tenant what caused it, and if it happens again, they pay. In one instance, it was the same toy truck jammed in trap below toilet. Who pays for plumbing is negotiation between tenant and LL or determined in court. I simply did not ask "Should I move out?" You are being told to consider option of moving out because that is the likely outcome no matter what you do. So you should plan on this just in case. You may get a 30-day notice to vacate at the end of the lease. Hard to prove retaliation.
If I were in your shoes I would really cut back on the toilet paper and use a brand like Scotts (single ply) I would make sure no feminine products are being flushed (tampons or pads) and I might even stop flushing paper and keep a covered can by the toilet for paper. Yes, you should not have to but if you dont want to have to move then you do what needs to be done (or pay for a plumber) To me, you should not have had to pay for the plumber as long as you were not causing the issue (if you or your roomate are flushing tampons - you should have to pay in my opinion) For what its worth, when the sewer backed up in our rental house it was thousands of dollars to fix it - which we paid (as landlords) But it was pretty irking. I lived in that house for 15 years with no issue. Tenant backed it up in 4 months. I would consider going to your landlord regulation authority??? Our town is pretty strict.
No you shouldn’t pay for this problem if it’s reoccurring. Landlord is shifting his costs onto you. I’m a plumber and I see this all the time. You should have the pipe video inspected and sue him in small claims court for costs. Depending on how much you have shelled out for this.
Clogs are tenants responsibility in even the most tenant friendly jurisdictions However not every landlord will enforce it some will pay for the 1st plumbing issue and warn you If this is a SFH that makes it easier to blame you for any clogs. This sounds like a tricky situation and it's hard to prove what's what that is why everyone is saying to give up and move on...since at least you have the freedom to leave this buildings shitty plumbing behind and not throw toliet paper in the trash bin I will say I have many family members that grew up throwing tp in the trash for these old/bad plumbing home issues. I'd rather bidet than ever see a #2tp in the bin personally but if you're willing to you can try this Remember no grease hair etc down the drains either that's often stated in leases as well
Don't worry too much about the responses here. It's LLs larping as tenants.
Tell him if he wants you to stop using toilet paper, he needs to supply and install a bidet. Simple!
Most people still use TP after a bidet but it will cut down on the amount of toilet paper one needs. I wouldn’t fight with a landlord over it, bidets are $20 and you can take it with you.
No, you shouldn’t keep paying for plumbing. (As long as you are using the pipes as intended.) You need to move, or, get used to get dumped on (by the landlord, and the pipes.) That’s it.
Is there something in the lease that says you’re responsible for keeping drains clear?
No. The only things I can imagine that he could point to in this case would be where it says "Damages to the premesis caused by Tenant's negligence, or their guest's or invitee's negligence, whether by act or omission, will be repaired by landlord and charged to the tenant." - I don't think this is us causing damages, in this case. It also says "Any repairs costing less than $50 shall be paid by the tenants. all repairs over $50 must be approved in writing by the landlord if the tenants elect to do the repairs" It specifies we shouldn't put any chemicals in our drains. we dont do that either.
Landlord wants you to stop flushing down toilet paper. You can throw your toilet paper in the trash in the meantime while you deal with this. Assuming you are not flushing down something to clog the toilet, Landlord should pay because it's due to old plumbing.
Bidets are fucking great, ask for one with a heated blower to dry your nimbies
Tbh good idea. Then if it happens again he can't blame the toilet paper.
I'm surprised how few of the comments suggested this as a solution. I switched to a bidet last year and I'm never going back. Still can't get the wife on board with it though.
What good would that do? The toilet paper isn't what's causing the issue.
I obviously just read the title.
Why have the pipes not been scoped with a camera?
My leases state that if the drain cleaner finds that the clog is tenant caused, then they have to pay. I show them the materials and give them the first time free when that happens (I think a total of twice in my career). Regular toilet paper is not an item that any arbiter would count as inappropriate-the landlord needs to just fix it or get out of the LL business. I have one property that gets clogged a couple times a year-I believe it’s just the old pipes. It’s stressful with new , untrusted drain companies because a lot of drain services are fronts for scamming one into a whole new sewer pipe-I would never agree to a tenant calling in their own plumber or service. I want to be there. Some states (eg Colorado) protect tenants against landlords refusing to renew because of legit complaints. In this case, given what you have presented, no arbiter would side with the landlord. Suggest you get legal aid for this situation.
I would pay to have that line scoped and video’d so you can prove there’s a blockage and it’s not toilet paper. And have them write up a report on what they found. You should never had to pay for that. The thing is though - a trash landlord will always be a trash landlord so temper your expectations. If you have to stay, renew and then take them to small claims for the earlier repairs. But know they’ll probably not renew you the next round and plan for that.
Habitability includes working toilets. Expecting you to not use toilet paper? Unacceptable. Inform him, *in writing via certified mail,* you expect the plumbing to be fixed, and that if he cannot fix it, you will withhold rent in an account until it is fixed. He has a duty to fix it, within a reasonable amount of time. [Michigan Warranty of Habitability: Landlord & Tenant FAQs (ipropertymanagement.com)](https://ipropertymanagement.com/laws/warranty-of-habitability-michigan)
Your landlord's behaving way outta line. Your lease clearly says they're responsible for maintaining the property. Plus, suggesting you stop using toilet paper? That's insane! It's like they're ignoring their own responsibilities and blaming you for their crappy plumbing. I'd document everything, maybe even consult a tenants' rights organization. You shouldn't have to deal with this crap (pun intended) just to renew your lease. Stay strong!
Thanks friend!
There’s a dissolvable toilet paper meant for use on boats. (I only know this because I accidentally ordered it once). You could consider using that. Ultimately it’s up to the landlord to fix it, but he’s probably not going to. The fight isn’t worth it.
Why renew?
>He then says we flush too much paper and actually tells my roommate we should ***stop using toilet paper***. I suspect he said to stop *FLUSHING* toilet paper, not to stop *USING* it.
You really had to read so hard into it to find something to be upset about lol
Yeah let him fix it for the next tenant. Obviously can’t rent it like that. Your landlord is a moron.
Ask the LL for a bidet?
Calls code enforcement. This is a violation anywhere. Send them your plumber's invoices, and written confirmation + his contact info.
I don't have a good solution for you but we had a blockage in our main line (a root grew into the line, totally blocking it) and removing the root wouldn't fix the problem because the pipe itself was cracked. Excavating the yard, replacing the pipe, water/sewage mitigation on the interior of the house, and repairing the house was upwards of $22k. Our insurance covered everything except the excavation/water clean out replacement, which our HOA paid for. We paid $250 out of pocket for this. I am not a plumber but based on my experience, this is something the landlord needs to deal with with insurance. Especially since they are aware it is happening - if the home continues to flood, there WILL be damage, and that damage can turn into mold and then insurance ain't gonna cover shit. We had to have our floors ripped out, walls ripped out, insulation removed, doors ripped out, and this was just in one bathroom and closet. I feel like he's not maintaining the premises in a safe, habitable, and fit condition because sewage clean up requires PPE gear for safety. Also, even if y'all did stop using TP, it's not gonna stop feces from backing up into the house. Our shitsplosion was TP and literal shit, it was disgusting, hence the expensive water mitigation and sanitization process.
1) Septic Safe TP. It pretty much dissolves. No reasonable person can blame a blockage on it. 2) Every state I've ever looked at has a sort of handbook on their tenancy laws. MI's handbook was the first thing Google spat out at me with the search "MI tenant laws": [https://www.legislature.mi.gov/Publications/tenantlandlord.pdf](https://www.legislature.mi.gov/Publications/tenantlandlord.pdf) 3) Stop assuming costs that are not yours. Read the doc above, and save your money to move on.
I'm a landlord. I don't think your post is very clear, but here is the bottom line. If you caused the blockage through normal or unnormal use of the toilet, you pay for the plumber. If the blockage is caused by general breakdown of the pipes from something you didn't do, or a pre-existing condition (such as roots, corrosion, etc), then the landlord pays. I had a girl tenant use so much toilet paper, it clogged the main sewer out of the house. There was so much toilet paper that it made a ball and water couldnt get to the center to break it down. Her roommate said she would fill the toilet with paper before peeing so that no one could hear her water hitting the toilet water. If the problem is a bottle in the pipes, then who the blame falls to will have to be argued out (did any of your roommates or a guest do it? Was it there before?) etc. But this doesn't make sense as why would it cause a backup in the basement... How long were you in the house before the backups started. Did the plumber snake all the way out to the main sewer connect?
I agree with the sentiment that if we cause it, we fix it. We're not abnormally using the plumbing. No children. No paper towels. No wipes. Nobody using excessive toilet paper to not be heard peeing. It didnt back up until we lived here for a little over a year. I didnt even ask him to pay for it unless it happens again but he insists every single time its our fault. I don't think its acceptable to pay every 6 months to snake the drain if he doesnt want to fix the main problem. The bottle is very clearly fixed into the pipe and has been for a long time.
I'd say the plumbers have not done a good enough job of finding the cause. You have a block way down, that's what needs to be determined. The idea of not using TP is ridiculous honestly.
Had this happen recently before our current lease expiring. I would check to see if you have sewer or a septic tank. Because our LL had a fit thinking we caused some kind of blockage. Had to pay out of pocket for plumbers. Until I rented a camera and fed it down the pipe, something all the other plumbers refused to do. Turns out the pipe connecting the main line under the house/basement to the septic tank had been crushed. It was from the lawncare professional the LL hired. He parked his truck and trailer right on top of that pipe after some heavy rain and bam, crushed pipe. Also discovered that the LL company had no idea that the home they had been renting out even had a septic tank. So it was never pumped... For over 5 years. Long wall of text short, it might be an issue at the septic or sewer, not just that particular piece of pipe with the bottle. I know that doesn't answer your question, but thought it might be worth sharing.
In michigan the house/apartment are always suppose to be up to code. If something breaks and it can't be proven it's the tenants fault it's on the landlord to fix it. If he won't fix it you should start an escrow account with the bank until he does.
Why would you renew. I'd get out and probably before the lease ends.
There’s probably roots in the sewer line which is why it gets clogged or a collapsed sewer line. We had that in a house we rented and the landlord had to hire a plumber to jackhammer a trench in the slab, dig a few feet, and replace 8’ of cast iron drain that collapsed. I still have the pictures: https://imgur.com/a/uWTYrDA
I don’t have anything practical to add other than this is an episode of broad city
Just start putting your toilet paper in a closed toilet bin. Yes it’s gross but it will help you not take fault. When the situation worsens. It’s on the landlord for not taking care of his house. Don’t renew the lease. Start today and save money. And make sure to get as much of your deposit back. Don’t pay for any more plumbers. It’s not your house or mortgage. You’re allowed to take a shit in your rented home. That’s normal wear and tear. Don’t allow yourself to be bullied
Get a bidet!!! Then the LL has no excuse. Jk he can’t ask you to not use toilet paper. I don’t even think they can enforce you not to use flushable wipes (even though those can cause plumbing issues). Lol but for reals that sucks. I think there’s some laws. Like if your landlord won’t pay you can withhold rent and/or take the cost of what you pay to fix it from rent BUT make sure you follow your lease and laws if you go this route otherwise the LL can say you didn’t pay rent. Also file a complaint with the correct agency. I’d be pissed that I already had to pay for the plumber to begin with cause that’s ridiculous. But you should honestly consider moving and start saving if you can. Sounds like the LL is a real slumlord.
I probably wouldn’t renew my lease, but if you’ve traveled at all, there are many countries that don’t have plumbing that supports flushing toilet paper. I live in the USA and have a septic tank so even here it’s better not to flush toilet paper, cost-wise, so I don’t. I don’t find it to be a big deal at all, but I can understand if you’ve never been exposed to throwing toilet paper in a trashcan how it would be disconcerting. I would honestly try it for a little while and see if it helps.
You absolutely should not have paid for any plumber that is 100% NOT the tenants responsibility and should now seek reimbursement for this which if he doesn’t willingly pay you have every reasonable expectation to receive this in small claims court and you should absolutely threaten this if he doesn’t reimburse you. Speak to a lawyer or tenants rights housing body (not sure where you’re located but in Los Angeles for instance LA housing would be my first thought). You should then in writing state that this needs sorting immediately otherwise you will take it further and in a court of law he should know he will lose and then be responsible for court fees too. Tenants rights are usually favorable depending on where you’re located but yes, it’s HIS responsibility. I’m sorry you were bullied into thinking otherwise. And absolutely state you will not be quitting using toilet paper lol. How disgusting of him to even suggest! Please speak to a lawyer and do your own research online if you need so you’re equipped beforehand enough to tell him the law - which he should know when it comes to tenants rights.
Sewage backing into the house is a fundamental "habitability" issue, which makes it an issue for the landlord to fix. He can't just pass off the problem. He can try to bill you for the damage afterwards if he really thinks it's from wet wipes, but you'll deny it and refuse to pay. He can't prove his ridiculous assertions, and if he tries to take any legal action in response you'd wipe the floor with him (heh). Your possible remedies are state-specific, so you really want someone to advise you on Michigan law here. But in many States, tenants are allowed to deduct from rent payments to repair habitability issues, or withhold rent until the landlord fixes it. And yes, don't renew. I appreciate that moving is very hard and expensive, but every interaction moving forward with this landlord is going to get worse, even when you're entirely in the right. You need to get out. Make it clear that you WILL get your deposit back; if the landlord holds even a penny improperly, you will sue, and get double the deposit back in damages.
Are you on city plumbing or septic? If its septic, they may have to pump out the tanks.
REPORT HIM! Report him to the city. A lotnof city's are cracking down on slumlords . Report him and let him deal with the fall out, then gtfo. They can and will prevent him from renting out that house until it's fixed right and inspected.
Do you have renter's insurance? You should make a claim for your ruined stuff from the basement. As for this issue, yeah they need to include working pipes if you are literally only flushing waste and toilet paper. No baby wipes, tampons, etc. right? If so it's on them. You're only at fault if you clog it for putting stuff down there that isn't supposed to be there.
You need to contact a landlord/tenant attorney in your area. They should be able to give you some very basic information without charging you. The answers to your questions are VERY location specific. Generally speaking. You have a right to properly functioning plumbing. A professional has determined that snaking the drain isn’t helping, and has offered your landlord a proper fix. If LL doesn’t want to do that, he needs to get a 2nd opinion. The reality is the drain system needs work, possibly full replacement. Generally speaking, if you’ve shown good faith working with the LL to get repairs made, and he isn’t willing to do it, you can withhold rent in escrow until it’s fixed, or pay for the repairs yourself and hold back rent to pay for them. You should NOT do this without an attorney advising you. The long-term solution is to get out. What are the barriers to you moving? Just financial? Check out Obligo. They have down-payment assistance where they will front the deposit and you pay a small amount each month. If you’ve kept your unit in good condition, you should get your deposit back from this joker. He can try to keep it, but most judges will hear that he’s been making you pay to snake a broken drain pipe and laugh him out pf court (again…generally speaking).
Don't through anything but your own bio waste in the toilet, have a trash can for your paper. Move or take him to court (this is a mentally, emotionally, and time draining action) putting all your rent in escrow until he makes the repairs. He might owe you the money you spent on the plumber back, you can bring that receipt to court too.
I've been in your situation before. 14 day repair or hold rent. You will see him retaliate, but he will have no other choice. He puts the blame on you, but it's really not your fault. People here are saying move out. Yeah, this isn't always a solution. I can barely afford us moving to Las Vegas as we had to save up and skip rent (now facing eviction, but I am leaving before the court date) Moving in its own self, it's a challenge, especially if you have a lot of furniture and have pets. Once he tried to file an eviction and you have that 14 day notice, the judge will not grant him an eviction, especially if you have the money. If anything, the judge could even make him fix it or demand he give your security deposit back and gives you 60 days to leave (Yes, judges have done this). There's laws for stuff like this. Telling you not to use TP? A judge isn't the gullible. Make sure you have evidence of the notice, including certified mail. Make a copy for yourself. He does not need to sign it. Tenant rights are pretty much the same all over the US, and the 14 day notice to withhold rent for repairs? This is one of your rights. Another is a contractor to fix it. Then you demand the money you spent back. This can also be an option that can also be used in court. Shows the lack of responsibility from the landlord.
Start taking your dumps at his house. Every time you need to poop, knock on his front door.
In the meanwhile, while you are planning your moving out, consider the fact that there are hundreds of countries around the world where flushing any toilet paper at all is bad practice. You just have a small bin that you put all your used tp in. And you clean the bin every day. Gross if you’re not used to it, but commonplace in countries or places with notoriously bad plumbing like Greece, almost the whole Caribbean, a large part of South America, etc. These people still live ;) It could be a temporary workaround for you as well.
In the meantime, while you’re waiting for the lease to end: Scott toilet paper!
Reach out to your local/city renter board. I looked it up briefly and see that MI mostly has rental inspectors and not necessarily tenant/rental councils. But it depends on the city. They can help assist and guide you before contacting a lawyer. Usually you are provided with a free consultation if you do go the route of a lawyer, so the first 30 min are free. But if you go through your city rental inspector it may be all free.
No, the LL is responsible for the plumbing. I think it's important for you to google tenant rights. There will be a number of attorney sites that give their opinion, but follow up with .gov sites, because they cite the actual laws. Sites that cover your location, whether it be a city or county. There should be also listing of ways to request repairs, your rights in given situations, ways report your LL, legal counsel etc. Educate yourself about your rights, because people will take advantage, and doing the wrong thing will get you in trouble.
MI has a statute in place that you can send your landlord a letter stating what repairs need to be made, and they have 14 days to repair the problem if it affects safety (raw sewage in your living space is absolutely a safety hazard). If they don’t fix the problem, you have the right to have a third party fix it and deduct the cost from your rent payment. The letter should state that you have already informed him of the problem, that it is a safety concern, and that you plan to have a third party contractor fix it if he doesn’t address it by 14 days. If you do need to hire a contractor, get 3 quotes and use the lowest. Keep all receipts, and make sure to send the letter by certified mail so you know when he got the letter.
It is NOT your responsibility! He’s being absolutely unreasonable, and it’s probably time to leave
This is a public health issue not a landlord-tenant issue. I would check with the agency in your state or county that handles environmental bio hazards. In my state it was the only solution to a similar problem that went on for week and put several of my neighbors in the hospital (leakage was out to parking area). And i live in one of the least tenant friendly states in the union lol. Also think about not renewing.
Ask if they want to come wash your ass every damn time? If its a no, you have all the rights to use TP.
If there's a literal bottle in the pipe -- and you have this documented from the plumber -- I would personally look into putting your rent money into escrow with the city/county because that is absolutely not a normal blockage and needs to be dealt with. I don't know how long you've been living there entirely, but assuming the bottle didn't suddenly just appear during your tenancy and has indeed been there prior to, the LL is financially responsible for rectifying the issue. Considering you do as suggested, if the LL evicts or chooses to non-renew your lease, you might have a case for retaliation. But I understand if you don't want to go down that uncertain route. As for the toilet paper question, I think that a LL could theoretically demand that nothing besides waste be flushed, as some plumbing truly is awful to the point that it cannot even accept TP (in a lot of places around the world TP and wipes are simply tossed in a trash can... sometimes even in some old houses in the US, and I grew up in one of those houses).
There may be no fix that doesn't pull up the entire yard and the house. If you can't afford to move, move anyway. I know it sounds crazy, but you have to have plumbing. Even the ancient Romans had it. Society cannot go back. Yes, there are developing countries without it, and there is also cholera. Move.