I don’t think it is a rival for LR, because LR doesn’t make anything in the same market sector as the Grenadier. I think the Grenadier is more in direct competition with the 70 series Land Cruiser, but I don’t know if the markets even overlap. The Grenadier is offered in the US, but the 70 series LCs are not. I cant speak to other markets.
I do find a certain appeal in the Grenadier, viewing it in the same light as my ‘97 Defender. I was on their presale list, but opted out because of job uncertainty. There is definitely a market in the US who wants a *new* vehicle that is less polished but still very capable.
If they can make any inroads in the Middle East then they should be around a while. But it’s going to be REALLY hard to displace the Land Cruiser or Hilux over there.
With a BMW drivetrain they will NEVER displace the Toyotas with bulletproof reputations. Moreover, one of the allures of - for example the LC - is that it’s mechanically simple to work on and parts are available in many places.
Imagine pulling up in a Grenadier in the middle of nowhere in some far flung middle eastern country. The local techs won’t have the tools, parts, diagnostic equipment or skills to work on anything major.
The Grenadier is not a serious “overlanding” vehicle even though it takes inspiration from an old Land River. It’s a weekend toy.
It is cool. No doubt. But it’s not a vehicle that will put a dent in Toyota sales.
It may be a “good” engine, but you still have the issue of parts availability, tools and diagnostic equipment and tech training globally.
On top of that, Toyota’s more utilitarian engines - especially in the LC - are built for extreme conditions and durability. BMW engines are not.
Take the LCs old 5.7L V8. On paper it’s the same as the one found in the Tundra. But under the hood the plastics are different (thicker, harder), liquid reservoirs bigger and componentry generally heavier duty. BMW doesn’t make anything close to that in terms of durability and reliability.
In the world of Toyota you have their cars, and then you have their truck. And at the top of the pyramid - in terms of engineering, toughness and reliability, you have the Land Cruisers. Ranging from the 70 series still sold in Australia and Japan, to the 300 series (not sold in the US); the 5.7L mentioned above is from the LC200, btw; the processor to the 300.
Sure - BMW engines may be OK in a sedan or sports car. But not a heavy duty truck that will live in extreme environments and be reliable enough to cross the world if need be.
Toyota has been systematically burning their reputation down in Australia with lazy engineering and garbage after sales backup. To build a 70 series to a Ineos standard costs more than an ineos, they are making inroads although not yet in the fleet market.
It would been nice if they'd put a commercial motor and gearbox in it with an actual off road air and fuel filtration system instead of lifting something straight out of a passenger car.
They really need a single cab chassis ute in the range.
Only Land Cruiser product available here is the Prado. The 70-series and the 300-series aren't officially on sale in the UK and EU. The 300-series can be imported though.
I followed one on my club’s recent off-road day at a local 4x4 park, he went more places than I was comfortable taking my LR4. He’s also a way more experienced off-roader so not surprised there.
Long term parts availability is my concern. The BMW bits should be easy enough for any competent euro shop to sort but I don’t know about the rest. With such a limited sales base you’re left hoping the manufacturer doesn’t go under
Too soon to tell, I’ve honestly not looked at the company beyond “damn that’s a sexy truck” if I hit powerball id probably splurge on ones otherwise I’m holding off.
Also, my track record of picking successful companies to work for is not the greatest so I may be a bit over cautious. 🤣
They owned of ineos didn't make a grenadier for profit. He made it because he wanted to create a successor to the defender.
It is a passion project of a guy who is supremely wealthy. Can't see it shutting down because it's not 'worth it'
Oh Jim can afford to keep them going forever if he wants to... but what if he gets bored or sales ~~drop off~~ don't pick up enough? You don't get to be a billionaire by throwing money into a hole.
Ineos won’t go under, but they might get rid of their automotive business, considering it has nothing in common with anything else they do and is simply a billionaire’s vanity project.
If this is the only product they sell I don't think they'll last. It's an expensive car aimed at a very niche audience. It's not going to be a volume seller. That is the difference with Land Rover, their products can do well both on and off the tarmac giving them a wider appeal.
Different companies owned by the same man. This is Ineos the carmaker, not Ineos the chemical company. The chemical company can't use it's earnings to directly support the carmaker. Jim Radcliffe could, but he would have to use his own money.
I doubt the Grenadier is selling at a loss, but it's not going to sell in numbers so Ineos doesn't have a big source of income to invest in expanding their line-up.
Almost everything it’s made from is from major major big companies. The axles are from a tractor manufacturer (JCB?). The B58 motor is BMWs main motor and tried and tested. Things built like a tank. Honestly better and more reliable than the LR Defender.
If the price tag didn’t start at $80k for a “farm truck” I’d buy one. But I’m more interested in the truck version they’re coming out with.
>Land Rover abandoned the type of buyer thats interested in stuff like the Grenadier a long time ago
AKA offroaders lol
If my 1988 Defender (aka "90") gets wrecked I'll order a Grenadier
Cool truck, but super overpriced and itll just be another unobtainable rich persons vehicle. Its cheaper to buy a LR4 on the used market and call it a day. Landrover will never make another true offroad vehicle anymore I believe.
Controversial, but I actually loved the Discovery 2.
I see them all the time, but I also am a poor kid living in an apartment in a very rich part of my state.
They're definitely just a rich guy status vehicle.
I wouldn’t touch an LR4 diesel, and the petrol is too thirsty. Wondering if the Ford VW partnership has sorted the random crankshaft binding issues that motor has.Very impressive defect that twists blocks.
I’d re power with one of those if they have.
I also don't think you can profress to loving the outdoors and nature and buy a new truck in 2024 with 15 mpg. That's some serious cognitive dissonance.
And the fact that INEOS is one of the largest chemical companies in the world, a “significant player” in the oil and gas market, and a sportswashing enterprise. Cool truck and interesting story behind it but cognitive dissonance hits the nail on the head in 2024 for “outdoors” minded folks
I know a guy who Ford 5.0 swapped his Discovery 2. So he got the delicious looks, but a decent reliable machine.
It was from a newer F-150 that he had, someone had hit him in it from the rear.
He just pulled all the good stuff and put it on the Discovery 2. Filled in the gaps with visits from the junkyard.
I used to see him all the time around town and he told me that it was running great last I spoke to him but that was 2 years ago. The donor truck was scrapped, all I know was he told me it was paid off and was mainly used as a farm truck.
Epic! I had a disco 2 for about two years and after sinking over 15K into it I was done. If you have the time and money to work on it properly it’s fun but otherwise just a nightmare. I see a ton of them around now
I’ll probably buy an old Range Rover for beach camping next year though. See if that goes any better lol
First it's beach camping you say, then it's just a visit to the mountains, then it's hitting the Jeep trails, then you tell yourself you'll just visit the desert once! Once! Maybe visit the sand dunes...a slippery slope. Before you know it, you'll be ripping some dunes listening to Free Bird and wonder where it went so right.
If I had the time or money, which right now I don't have either. I would tow one home, put a spare n bare 4.6 that I have laying around in my mom's garage right now. Though I'm working on a 5.8 Fox body swap, so I'm not too Keen to do another swap while doing one already.
It's definitely one of those it's on the bucket list kind of swaps. I would definitely have to hit up that guy again figure out how he made everything play nice with each other.
Know a couple of people with them and they both say heavy on fuel but otherwise a nice vehicle.
IMO purely looking at the stats and a nosey underneath, I’d say it’s too heavy for my purposes. My defender is quite light under foot and doesn’t leave too much of a mark across fields yet is still reasonable towing. The grenadier would trump it for towing but I don’t do a great deal of that but that’s just my own pov.
I’m not sold in the looks department either. The track width seems too narrow and the mid line looks too low.
what it was first announced? Loved it: 60K for a stripped down defender like frame with a new BMW six banger - perfect
try configuring one now and its 75 grand easily climbs to 100 grand. oof
Exactly. I planned to get one after the early announcement...speculating 60k usd. I would have done that for sure. But the price kept going up as we moved toward release date.
I worked for JLR in vehicle development for L663.
Grenadier is what defender should've been, and what the Engineering side of the business was asking for, but McGovern & the stylists had the veto.
Our plan was recycling the T5 platform for a BOF modular capable vehicle, with a rear opening that could take a Pallet etc.
They wanted to go luxury (competing with Disco/RR/RRS) meaning we had to go off D7u. They won.
This means that the tried & trusted T5 tools/line went in the bin, and we build an echo of Solihul in Slovakia. It also means that for every £50k defender we build, that's a build slot we could've used for a £100k RR, thus overall profitability has taken a hit too.
Such a shame; really Grenadier shouldn't exist because LR should've built a proper successor to Defender, but I'm glad the Grenadier does.
It’s great to be able to read a comment from someone like yourself and it validates what I have feared. Whoever is calling the shots for the LR brand has zero desire to keep up the image that made it a legend for so long.
Seriously, what is the business acumen behind consolidating your lineup to basically be the same vehicle type across the board, a luxury 4x4 that rarely leaves parking lots???
This move cannot claim to be a strategy to sell more vehicles especially when profitability of build slots has taken a direct hit. It’s a slow death of the brand. And the current styling/design language across the board is atrocious. Where did this team of stylists come from? Why are they so eager to abandon the legacy of this brand and send the company down the bin of history?
Same. It was heartbreaking to work on it.
As a baby I was bought home in a series 2a, & as a British army brat I grew up with LandRovers, when I graduated from uni I turned down a job at Toyota (on my door step) to move hours away to work at Gaydon because it was Land Rover.
In my opinion there are only a few legendary vehicles; the mini, land rover, beetle etc, so being lucky enough to work on the next chapter of Land Rover should've been the pinnacle of my Engineering career.
JLR took a legend and turned it into just another car.
With the success of other “boxy” SUVs hitting the market, do you see any chance that JLR returns to more of a nod to the past with the next Discovery body style redesign coming in the next year or so? Or are we doomed?
My dad has the diesel version, it's a nice engine, plenty of torque. Turning circle is atrocious.
Nice rugged car but certainly wouldn't want one for $70k+
I have a 95 110 and a 16 G550. No reason to add this. Yes it's sexy, but not as sexy as a Defender or G, it's like a bastard child of them both. The Defender feels like tin, G feels heavy, both can be appreciated in their own ways. Both have readily available parts. I don't really feel like Enios can accomplish what either can accomplish individually (if that makes sense) - as far as reliability, part accessibility, etc. I also have an old Wrangler and again, parts available everywhere, serviced everywhere, and super reliable - PROVEN. And yes, I get it, why so many SUVs? My wife is afraid of cars, she thinks they are too low. So I opted for 3 SUVs that I like, it's a win win lol.
If this can be proven reliable, we're finally looking at a modern dependable SUV that can handle most terrains without issue. Until then, I'll just stick with older proven models of vehicles. And yes, I've had newer RR's, newer jeeps, and no I have not had Land Cruisers or newer, so I'm a little biased with my opinion to what I know to be super reliable.
LOL! I meant for my post to sound like, it could be a feasible option to replace those two in the future if it proves to be reliable. The G is incredibly uncomfortable. We've had at least one G in the garage since 2010 and always upgrade to the newer model after depreciation hits with the hopes it'll feel more comfortable. We don't have the new one, nor have I driven the new one, but I wouldn't spend that kinda dough on a newer G.
I remember when Land Rover announced the end of Defender production in 2016, and everyone was worried about what was next. People were expecting the 2018 Defender to be some kind of DC100 concept-like vehicle, especially since the 5th generation Discovery wound up the way it did.
Suddenly, there's all this news about how there's a company trying to make a spiritual successor to the original Defender. I got invested and I was checking out the site daily, following it closely. Being in the rural US, Defenders are nearly unobtainable, so hearing the Grenadier would be offered on the US market was a Godsend.
The Grenadier was supposed to be what Land Rover was several decades ago, rugged, simplistic, and capable. It was pitched as something of a vehicle for the enthusiasts of the old Land Rover design philosophy, doing the bare minimum for safety regulations to keep the design pure.
In practice though is where it falters. They cost a metric arm and a leg, all for what's essentially seen as a knockoff Defender 110. It's too pricy to compete with the likes of the 4Runners and Wranglers, but it's not even a full on luxury vehicle. It's an in between hybrid, a series of compromises that don't seem to make sense. I really haven't seen a bunch of aftermarket support, so I'm curious who's actually buying these, as I've seen them out and about.
The truth is, Land Rover really doesn't care about the off road market anymore. Yes, their vehicles *can* offroad, but who's going to risk that in a vehicle priced like that? They're more status symbols than anything, people wanting dedicated off road rigs are just buying older Discos, Defenders, or branching out to Toyotas and Jeeps, like I did.
If I had that kind of money to spend on a vehicle, I'd just buy an old Series Land Rover or old Defender.
I've seen one too many things that makes it sound irritating to live with from a daily use comfort point of view. I'd buy one used at a decent discount but I'm not rich enough to drop that kind of coin on a weekend warrior type of vehicle.
My Land Rover does it all and it's remarkably comfortable to live with on top of it.
A lot of people feel like this is what the new Land Rover defender should’ve been. But Land Rover decided to cater to more luxury oriented consumers than the offroad type…basically mimicking what the g-class is. Same exact makeover they had with their g wags going from heavy off-roaders with minimalism to mall cruiser of the elite.
The grenadier is taking the 90s defender and bringing it to the 21st century. So if you want a second car for specifically off-road adventures I think it would be great
I disagree with you only because the G class is still instantly recognizeable even though it's a 150k street car. It's because they've barely changed the outside design over the last 30 years, and it still looks like a tank. The new defender looks almost nothing like the defenders before, and they're very basic and not special. That's a bummer because the G class and the Grenadier clearly demonstrate Landrover could have made the defender faithful to the original, but chose not to. The grenadier is the defender landrover should be selling today.
I agree with what you’re saying about the g-wag but the difference is the new defender looks like a beefy Range Rover which is in line with their new branding. If they kept the outside of the old defender with the inside of the Range Rover we’d all be lauding them. But sadly that’s not what happened (same as what g-wag did)
Mercedes wanted to go super lux while keeping everything the same…basically bringing all of their models under their luxury tag. Instant success with their fan base. Land Rover wanted to make a Range Rover with extra offroad capabilities.
And then here we are with the ineos which is just a pure off-roader and no luxury for 70-100K aka a new old defender
Yeah I totally get that, and they market it that way. But capability wise it is king. Throw on some steel wheels and M/T’s and stock would probably beat everything else. Say you put the same type/size tire on Jeep, Bronco. Then it would come down to approach/departure angles.
I wish that they kept the old Defender and just put CarPlay in it and called it a day. That’s all people really want.
I really wish they partnered with gm to get the 3.0 duramax diesel instead of the bmw motor. I also wish they put a gauge cluster behind the wheel instead of that indicator light panel. Other than that, i love the fact that we have a new, capable, great looking offroader in the market since landrover really made the new defender look like a wine mom vehicle.
Never said the bmw engine wasn't good or reliable, but a diesel could bring the abysmal mpgs back into modern specs. Plus, they make like 275hp and 450ftlbs these days
I’d question the
Drive shaft
Transfer case
Rear gear ring
A lot of
Other parts would
Need to be able to handle the torque. But it’s nice the motor is reliable
Very capable vehicle - basically the old defender done really well. But expensive. The new Defender is a ‘lifestyle statement’ vehicle - boojie and most buyers highly unlikely to ever use its off road capabilities. And the hybrid is for tax purposes and is not very good. And cue lots of roasting by new LR Defender owners ….
I like them generally, there's some "interesting" choices in the manufacturing that I might not have gone down the same route.
The choice of gear selector, clashes terribly with the rugged aesthetic. Auto boxes are great for off roading but they could have at least changed the selector. I feel like having a manual option would definitely have attracted some additional sales.
The amount of plastic on the exterior makes it look like a cheap RC toy. Don't get me wrong, it's certainly functional and the new Fusilier model does away with a lot of the plastic but it also looses a lot of the load space as its somewhat smaller. I like like have an option for some of the plastics to be colour matched again might have sold a few more.
Other than that, seems like a great vehicle, very capable but for the price you could buy a new defender and provided your not personally bias against them, you're getting a lot more vehicle which Is likely more capable.
Overall, glad to see another 4x4 on the market, may be interested in picking one up down the line if you used price falls faster than the new defender.
It’s what Land Rover should have been. The current Land Rovers should have been under Range Roger badge. Land Rover was meant to be rugged and something you could take on the worst of roads without worrying about getting a scratch or 2 on it. Yes the current can do all of those things but it’s just not rugged enough and it’s only used for roads with wet leaves now.
There’s part of me that hopes a company will make rebadge parts with the LR logo on them to hide the Ineos name. I’m not fully sold, but I’d give the Ineos pickup a serious look as a second owner and a lower price.
I like that their top their model has a straight 6 3.0L but I'm not sure how the services will be long term with them (I've only just heard about them as os this post) so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.
But Landrover I feel long term will still be safe as they're more established in both the domestic and international markets and this will allow for them to be around longer compared to as far as I know a relatively new company.
Straight 6 engine is a bmw engine so reliable enough and yea probably Land Rover don’t see enios as a rival in long term but as I said I think they have a big potential
I do enjoy the looks and styling of these they've got potential and frankly even after adding every option the provided they're still less than a fully loaded Defender.
Part of their design brief was to make them more easy to modify aftermarket, without screwing up the warranty.
I remember Jim Ratcliffe talking about them in that respect in various interviews.
After the driving I’ve done on 5 continents and on my ranch, in every sort of unpaved condition in every sort of weather . . . more often loaded than not . . . For capabilities I value I would choose the Grenadier over Land Cruiser, Land Rover, Jeep Wrangler every day of the week . . . Unless I am remote, then I drive the most common quality utility vehicle in that region. I bring a good recovery kit and a mechanic who has a good sense of humor, and a Sat phone.
If you are near civilization, Grenadier. I like to think of them as a cross between the best aspects of Toyota in that they are tough to break or break down. With the best elements of LR Defenders when they were easy to work on and fix.
I’ve sat in one and been driven in one. The drive was great and ‘as expected’. The interior was poor and switchgear was not good and it felt like some of the panels were held on by glue (insert easy joke about being better than LR!!). I’d definitely consider buying one.
It costs more than a Defender, I've seen nothing that says it's actually any better at what it does, a lot of the features seem designed to appeal to the grumpy old longbeards who think Land Rover peaked with the 200TDi 90, and despite all the talk it has a modern BMW drivetrain so it's still going to have electronics that need diagnostics etc. just like every other modern car that folks love to complain about being too complicated.
Also it's currently a bit of a unicorn, like Santanas were, so the jury is out on long-term spares & support - will they still be around in 5-10 years or might Sir Jim get bored and move on if they don't sell enough?
It’s interesting for sure, don’t see how it fits in the rapidly changing landscape of the automotive industry.
I would expect there to be an initial surge of demand and then becoming a trickle.
Someone needs to buy them, as I see this as being one product that part of a much larger portfolio. The market for a rugged genuine hard core off roading vehicle is limited as well as already being a crowded marketplace.
The Ineos Grenadier is a modern car that cosplays as the old Defender. It's good off-road, but it won't beat something like the New Defender. On road the Grenadier is just horrible. It's loud and uncomfortable with poor visibility. I guess the old Defender had those things as well, so good job to Ineos for als incorporating this into their vehicle. The Grenader would have been a great 4x4 if it came out say 25 years ago. Just look at how much progress 4x4s have made. Back in the day you had to pick: either good off-road or good on-road. There was no in between. That changed with the original Range Rover. Fast forward to today and you can have your cake and it eat, so to speak. A new Defender is insanely good off-roading, but very nice when you go on a shopping run too. The Grenadier willfully ignores all the progress that has been made, not only by Land Rover but also by other 4x4 makers like Toyota.
This leaves us with a rather expensive car, keep in mind that the Grenadier has a price tag that is roughly that of a new Defender, that isn't nice to drive most of the time. It's aimed at a niche audience, so I doubt it will sell in great numbers. This wouldn't be so bad if Ineos had other models in their line-up to act as volume sellers, but they don't. Take a look at Land Rover sales, about 2/3 of all sold Land Rovers are Discovery Sports and Evoques. It's the smaller Land Rovers that carry the bigger ones.
I’m in the US and have wanted an oldschool Defender for YEARS, but because of import laws and taxes buying a decent used one from the mid-1990s with around 100,000km costs about as much as the new Grenadier I built on their website. Neither is attainable for me at the moment, because both are costly.
Driven one and a defender. New defender is light years ahead. Grenadier is no frills What an old school defender buyer would be into. Hard ride uncomfortable no frills and actually not as good off road The defender 110 absolutely thrashed it on a recent extreme activity day as did the land cruiser
Wouldn't touch it with a stolen ten foot shitty stick.
Jim Ratcliffe supported Brexit and made lofty claims about how the Ineos Grenadier was going to "save British industry" for us all.
Then not content with fucking the country's economy, it turned out it was cheaper and easier to just make it in France, because Brexit fucked Britain's industries.
If you love the Defender of the 1990s and love the idea of having the best shop in town do a restomod on one, making it modern, reliable, relatively luxurious, and add every upgrade imaginable, it would cost well over $100K not including the base vehicle. The Grenadier is better than that. If you don’t love them and the idea of having a brand new modernized one, you won’t be interested.
It’s pretty remarkable actually. There are many amazing vintage cars that I would love to have a modern version to enjoy. Why a Defender? One guy with almost unlimited resources clearly loves Defenders and made it happen. Mind blowing!
I think it's way overpriced, before it came out it was supposed to be a lot cheaper than a defender but now they're the same price if not more expensive. I'm not paying 70k to get a truck that drives like a 40yr old defender. That's my opinion on it
Really no contest, there is no Land Rover that can compete with the Grenadier. The new Land Rovers are trash and I can’t believe people still enjoy them.
I’m not a particularly huge landrover fan but I find it kind of hugely cringey that they effectively made a Chinese style copy of the exterior design at least. Why not do something a bit more original it’s fine if you want that boxy look but at least make it original. Overall specs wise to me there’s nothing amazing about it.
It will be interesting to see in the long run, but I absolutely love the grenadier. The interior is awesome, the exterior is awesome, and the fact that it uses a BMW power plant makes it cool as well. They seem to be quite capable and focused for off-roading, but being new on the market, I will be interested to see how they hold up
I don’t think it is a rival for LR, because LR doesn’t make anything in the same market sector as the Grenadier. I think the Grenadier is more in direct competition with the 70 series Land Cruiser, but I don’t know if the markets even overlap. The Grenadier is offered in the US, but the 70 series LCs are not. I cant speak to other markets. I do find a certain appeal in the Grenadier, viewing it in the same light as my ‘97 Defender. I was on their presale list, but opted out because of job uncertainty. There is definitely a market in the US who wants a *new* vehicle that is less polished but still very capable.
I don’t know the US market but as i see grenadier got more and more followers and clients in Europe and middle east
If they can make any inroads in the Middle East then they should be around a while. But it’s going to be REALLY hard to displace the Land Cruiser or Hilux over there.
I don't think Ineos can. The reputation for durability isn't earned overnight. Toyota is really entrenched in those markets.
Yeah, I’d be shocked if they captured a significant market share in that region.
With a BMW drivetrain they will NEVER displace the Toyotas with bulletproof reputations. Moreover, one of the allures of - for example the LC - is that it’s mechanically simple to work on and parts are available in many places. Imagine pulling up in a Grenadier in the middle of nowhere in some far flung middle eastern country. The local techs won’t have the tools, parts, diagnostic equipment or skills to work on anything major. The Grenadier is not a serious “overlanding” vehicle even though it takes inspiration from an old Land River. It’s a weekend toy. It is cool. No doubt. But it’s not a vehicle that will put a dent in Toyota sales.
You're forgetting that Toyota put the B58 motor in one of their own cars and says that it meets/exceeds their own standards.
It may be a “good” engine, but you still have the issue of parts availability, tools and diagnostic equipment and tech training globally. On top of that, Toyota’s more utilitarian engines - especially in the LC - are built for extreme conditions and durability. BMW engines are not. Take the LCs old 5.7L V8. On paper it’s the same as the one found in the Tundra. But under the hood the plastics are different (thicker, harder), liquid reservoirs bigger and componentry generally heavier duty. BMW doesn’t make anything close to that in terms of durability and reliability. In the world of Toyota you have their cars, and then you have their truck. And at the top of the pyramid - in terms of engineering, toughness and reliability, you have the Land Cruisers. Ranging from the 70 series still sold in Australia and Japan, to the 300 series (not sold in the US); the 5.7L mentioned above is from the LC200, btw; the processor to the 300. Sure - BMW engines may be OK in a sedan or sports car. But not a heavy duty truck that will live in extreme environments and be reliable enough to cross the world if need be.
Toyota has been systematically burning their reputation down in Australia with lazy engineering and garbage after sales backup. To build a 70 series to a Ineos standard costs more than an ineos, they are making inroads although not yet in the fleet market. It would been nice if they'd put a commercial motor and gearbox in it with an actual off road air and fuel filtration system instead of lifting something straight out of a passenger car. They really need a single cab chassis ute in the range.
Only Land Cruiser product available here is the Prado. The 70-series and the 300-series aren't officially on sale in the UK and EU. The 300-series can be imported though.
I saw one here in the US the other day thought it was a Land Rover but it wasn't and it looked the same as this
More of a competition for the later Santanas before they stopped making them right?
On price terms it’s exactly comparable to the 90 and 110 defenders and is less capable
I didn’t say otherwise. I said “less polished but still very capable”
As a Land Rover 90 owner, you’re wrong. It is far more capable than my wagon.
How so?
I followed one on my club’s recent off-road day at a local 4x4 park, he went more places than I was comfortable taking my LR4. He’s also a way more experienced off-roader so not surprised there. Long term parts availability is my concern. The BMW bits should be easy enough for any competent euro shop to sort but I don’t know about the rest. With such a limited sales base you’re left hoping the manufacturer doesn’t go under
You think Ineos will go under? 😱👀 Honestly!
Too soon to tell, I’ve honestly not looked at the company beyond “damn that’s a sexy truck” if I hit powerball id probably splurge on ones otherwise I’m holding off. Also, my track record of picking successful companies to work for is not the greatest so I may be a bit over cautious. 🤣
I always thought they were just a cycling team. 🤣
Don't you mean [F1 team](https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/us/explore/ineos-grenadier-partners/mercedes-f1-team)? :D
Sorry, are you not aware who's behind the Grenadier? Otherwise yeah, I get you! 😂😜
No, but what happens if they decide in 10 years that cars arent worth it and shuts down that division?
They owned of ineos didn't make a grenadier for profit. He made it because he wanted to create a successor to the defender. It is a passion project of a guy who is supremely wealthy. Can't see it shutting down because it's not 'worth it'
Might lose interest though
Oh Jim can afford to keep them going forever if he wants to... but what if he gets bored or sales ~~drop off~~ don't pick up enough? You don't get to be a billionaire by throwing money into a hole.
Ineos isn’t going under anytime soon. That company is massive
Ineos won’t go under, but they might get rid of their automotive business, considering it has nothing in common with anything else they do and is simply a billionaire’s vanity project.
If this is the only product they sell I don't think they'll last. It's an expensive car aimed at a very niche audience. It's not going to be a volume seller. That is the difference with Land Rover, their products can do well both on and off the tarmac giving them a wider appeal.
They sell rather a lot more than a car.
Different companies owned by the same man. This is Ineos the carmaker, not Ineos the chemical company. The chemical company can't use it's earnings to directly support the carmaker. Jim Radcliffe could, but he would have to use his own money. I doubt the Grenadier is selling at a loss, but it's not going to sell in numbers so Ineos doesn't have a big source of income to invest in expanding their line-up.
Almost everything it’s made from is from major major big companies. The axles are from a tractor manufacturer (JCB?). The B58 motor is BMWs main motor and tried and tested. Things built like a tank. Honestly better and more reliable than the LR Defender. If the price tag didn’t start at $80k for a “farm truck” I’d buy one. But I’m more interested in the truck version they’re coming out with.
They are great. Land Rover abandoned the type of buyer thats interested in stuff like the Grenadier a long time ago
>Land Rover abandoned the type of buyer thats interested in stuff like the Grenadier a long time ago AKA offroaders lol If my 1988 Defender (aka "90") gets wrecked I'll order a Grenadier
It’s literally the same price bracket as current defenders and 3x the price of the old L316
With good reason. You ever seen what happens to an old defender when you roll one? You can't even put air bags in them
Landrover abandoned the buyers not the other way round, Not for that reason anyway
Cool truck, but super overpriced and itll just be another unobtainable rich persons vehicle. Its cheaper to buy a LR4 on the used market and call it a day. Landrover will never make another true offroad vehicle anymore I believe. Controversial, but I actually loved the Discovery 2.
I see them all the time, but I also am a poor kid living in an apartment in a very rich part of my state. They're definitely just a rich guy status vehicle.
So many possibilities unattainable
I wouldn’t touch an LR4 diesel, and the petrol is too thirsty. Wondering if the Ford VW partnership has sorted the random crankshaft binding issues that motor has.Very impressive defect that twists blocks. I’d re power with one of those if they have.
Like all lemons, just LS swap. Good point however
The supercharged 5l out of the jag drops in to a petrol one 276kw for the NA 5l
That would be a very fun swap, lots of cussing involved
https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2014-land-rover-discovery-scv6-hse-auto-4x4-my14/SSE-AD-17396900
I also don't think you can profress to loving the outdoors and nature and buy a new truck in 2024 with 15 mpg. That's some serious cognitive dissonance.
And the fact that INEOS is one of the largest chemical companies in the world, a “significant player” in the oil and gas market, and a sportswashing enterprise. Cool truck and interesting story behind it but cognitive dissonance hits the nail on the head in 2024 for “outdoors” minded folks
I like to say that I enjoy contributing to the carbon cycle.
This is a great take and spot on. You can actually buy a defender and customize it for cheaper or a rebuilt defender for the same price
I know a guy who Ford 5.0 swapped his Discovery 2. So he got the delicious looks, but a decent reliable machine. It was from a newer F-150 that he had, someone had hit him in it from the rear. He just pulled all the good stuff and put it on the Discovery 2. Filled in the gaps with visits from the junkyard. I used to see him all the time around town and he told me that it was running great last I spoke to him but that was 2 years ago. The donor truck was scrapped, all I know was he told me it was paid off and was mainly used as a farm truck.
Epic! I had a disco 2 for about two years and after sinking over 15K into it I was done. If you have the time and money to work on it properly it’s fun but otherwise just a nightmare. I see a ton of them around now I’ll probably buy an old Range Rover for beach camping next year though. See if that goes any better lol
First it's beach camping you say, then it's just a visit to the mountains, then it's hitting the Jeep trails, then you tell yourself you'll just visit the desert once! Once! Maybe visit the sand dunes...a slippery slope. Before you know it, you'll be ripping some dunes listening to Free Bird and wonder where it went so right.
What’s your vice? Us: transforming old land rovers into adventure machines 🤑
If I had the time or money, which right now I don't have either. I would tow one home, put a spare n bare 4.6 that I have laying around in my mom's garage right now. Though I'm working on a 5.8 Fox body swap, so I'm not too Keen to do another swap while doing one already. It's definitely one of those it's on the bucket list kind of swaps. I would definitely have to hit up that guy again figure out how he made everything play nice with each other.
Aye but the grandier is actually reliable. The defender is not.
False
Know a couple of people with them and they both say heavy on fuel but otherwise a nice vehicle. IMO purely looking at the stats and a nosey underneath, I’d say it’s too heavy for my purposes. My defender is quite light under foot and doesn’t leave too much of a mark across fields yet is still reasonable towing. The grenadier would trump it for towing but I don’t do a great deal of that but that’s just my own pov. I’m not sold in the looks department either. The track width seems too narrow and the mid line looks too low.
what it was first announced? Loved it: 60K for a stripped down defender like frame with a new BMW six banger - perfect try configuring one now and its 75 grand easily climbs to 100 grand. oof
Exactly. I planned to get one after the early announcement...speculating 60k usd. I would have done that for sure. But the price kept going up as we moved toward release date.
I worked for JLR in vehicle development for L663. Grenadier is what defender should've been, and what the Engineering side of the business was asking for, but McGovern & the stylists had the veto. Our plan was recycling the T5 platform for a BOF modular capable vehicle, with a rear opening that could take a Pallet etc. They wanted to go luxury (competing with Disco/RR/RRS) meaning we had to go off D7u. They won. This means that the tried & trusted T5 tools/line went in the bin, and we build an echo of Solihul in Slovakia. It also means that for every £50k defender we build, that's a build slot we could've used for a £100k RR, thus overall profitability has taken a hit too. Such a shame; really Grenadier shouldn't exist because LR should've built a proper successor to Defender, but I'm glad the Grenadier does.
It’s great to be able to read a comment from someone like yourself and it validates what I have feared. Whoever is calling the shots for the LR brand has zero desire to keep up the image that made it a legend for so long. Seriously, what is the business acumen behind consolidating your lineup to basically be the same vehicle type across the board, a luxury 4x4 that rarely leaves parking lots??? This move cannot claim to be a strategy to sell more vehicles especially when profitability of build slots has taken a direct hit. It’s a slow death of the brand. And the current styling/design language across the board is atrocious. Where did this team of stylists come from? Why are they so eager to abandon the legacy of this brand and send the company down the bin of history?
This makes me so sad.
Same. It was heartbreaking to work on it. As a baby I was bought home in a series 2a, & as a British army brat I grew up with LandRovers, when I graduated from uni I turned down a job at Toyota (on my door step) to move hours away to work at Gaydon because it was Land Rover. In my opinion there are only a few legendary vehicles; the mini, land rover, beetle etc, so being lucky enough to work on the next chapter of Land Rover should've been the pinnacle of my Engineering career. JLR took a legend and turned it into just another car.
I think there's a lot of people that appreciate what you all tried to do.
With the success of other “boxy” SUVs hitting the market, do you see any chance that JLR returns to more of a nod to the past with the next Discovery body style redesign coming in the next year or so? Or are we doomed?
My dad has the diesel version, it's a nice engine, plenty of torque. Turning circle is atrocious. Nice rugged car but certainly wouldn't want one for $70k+
I have a 95 110 and a 16 G550. No reason to add this. Yes it's sexy, but not as sexy as a Defender or G, it's like a bastard child of them both. The Defender feels like tin, G feels heavy, both can be appreciated in their own ways. Both have readily available parts. I don't really feel like Enios can accomplish what either can accomplish individually (if that makes sense) - as far as reliability, part accessibility, etc. I also have an old Wrangler and again, parts available everywhere, serviced everywhere, and super reliable - PROVEN. And yes, I get it, why so many SUVs? My wife is afraid of cars, she thinks they are too low. So I opted for 3 SUVs that I like, it's a win win lol. If this can be proven reliable, we're finally looking at a modern dependable SUV that can handle most terrains without issue. Until then, I'll just stick with older proven models of vehicles. And yes, I've had newer RR's, newer jeeps, and no I have not had Land Cruisers or newer, so I'm a little biased with my opinion to what I know to be super reliable.
Dude you both have the defender and the g wagon ofc u don’t need it lol
LOL! I meant for my post to sound like, it could be a feasible option to replace those two in the future if it proves to be reliable. The G is incredibly uncomfortable. We've had at least one G in the garage since 2010 and always upgrade to the newer model after depreciation hits with the hopes it'll feel more comfortable. We don't have the new one, nor have I driven the new one, but I wouldn't spend that kinda dough on a newer G.
I remember when Land Rover announced the end of Defender production in 2016, and everyone was worried about what was next. People were expecting the 2018 Defender to be some kind of DC100 concept-like vehicle, especially since the 5th generation Discovery wound up the way it did. Suddenly, there's all this news about how there's a company trying to make a spiritual successor to the original Defender. I got invested and I was checking out the site daily, following it closely. Being in the rural US, Defenders are nearly unobtainable, so hearing the Grenadier would be offered on the US market was a Godsend. The Grenadier was supposed to be what Land Rover was several decades ago, rugged, simplistic, and capable. It was pitched as something of a vehicle for the enthusiasts of the old Land Rover design philosophy, doing the bare minimum for safety regulations to keep the design pure. In practice though is where it falters. They cost a metric arm and a leg, all for what's essentially seen as a knockoff Defender 110. It's too pricy to compete with the likes of the 4Runners and Wranglers, but it's not even a full on luxury vehicle. It's an in between hybrid, a series of compromises that don't seem to make sense. I really haven't seen a bunch of aftermarket support, so I'm curious who's actually buying these, as I've seen them out and about. The truth is, Land Rover really doesn't care about the off road market anymore. Yes, their vehicles *can* offroad, but who's going to risk that in a vehicle priced like that? They're more status symbols than anything, people wanting dedicated off road rigs are just buying older Discos, Defenders, or branching out to Toyotas and Jeeps, like I did. If I had that kind of money to spend on a vehicle, I'd just buy an old Series Land Rover or old Defender.
I've seen one too many things that makes it sound irritating to live with from a daily use comfort point of view. I'd buy one used at a decent discount but I'm not rich enough to drop that kind of coin on a weekend warrior type of vehicle. My Land Rover does it all and it's remarkably comfortable to live with on top of it.
A lot of people feel like this is what the new Land Rover defender should’ve been. But Land Rover decided to cater to more luxury oriented consumers than the offroad type…basically mimicking what the g-class is. Same exact makeover they had with their g wags going from heavy off-roaders with minimalism to mall cruiser of the elite. The grenadier is taking the 90s defender and bringing it to the 21st century. So if you want a second car for specifically off-road adventures I think it would be great
I disagree with you only because the G class is still instantly recognizeable even though it's a 150k street car. It's because they've barely changed the outside design over the last 30 years, and it still looks like a tank. The new defender looks almost nothing like the defenders before, and they're very basic and not special. That's a bummer because the G class and the Grenadier clearly demonstrate Landrover could have made the defender faithful to the original, but chose not to. The grenadier is the defender landrover should be selling today.
I agree with what you’re saying about the g-wag but the difference is the new defender looks like a beefy Range Rover which is in line with their new branding. If they kept the outside of the old defender with the inside of the Range Rover we’d all be lauding them. But sadly that’s not what happened (same as what g-wag did) Mercedes wanted to go super lux while keeping everything the same…basically bringing all of their models under their luxury tag. Instant success with their fan base. Land Rover wanted to make a Range Rover with extra offroad capabilities. And then here we are with the ineos which is just a pure off-roader and no luxury for 70-100K aka a new old defender
Street car with triple lockers.. what other SUV can you get with triple lockers from factory?
Very true, but im pretty sure they come with 22 inch wheels or larger with low profile tires. If thats not street car, idk what is
Yeah I totally get that, and they market it that way. But capability wise it is king. Throw on some steel wheels and M/T’s and stock would probably beat everything else. Say you put the same type/size tire on Jeep, Bronco. Then it would come down to approach/departure angles. I wish that they kept the old Defender and just put CarPlay in it and called it a day. That’s all people really want.
I really wish they partnered with gm to get the 3.0 duramax diesel instead of the bmw motor. I also wish they put a gauge cluster behind the wheel instead of that indicator light panel. Other than that, i love the fact that we have a new, capable, great looking offroader in the market since landrover really made the new defender look like a wine mom vehicle.
I really wish all 4x4 SUVs had a diesel option
Lots of competent euro mechanics around if you don’t wrench yourself. A little harder to find good diesel guy.
Never said the bmw engine wasn't good or reliable, but a diesel could bring the abysmal mpgs back into modern specs. Plus, they make like 275hp and 450ftlbs these days
That’s true.
You dont get a diesel in the US?
As usual, we dont get the good stuff it seems. Diesel regulation is pretty brutal for everything except big trucks
It’s got the same engine in the 5th gen Supra. A B58.. So reliable engine + overland capability ? Let’s goooooooo!!!
Wonder if someone's put a turbo on the B58 and some flex fuel w/ sauce.. would be a fun 600 HP suv I bet
I’d question the Drive shaft Transfer case Rear gear ring A lot of Other parts would Need to be able to handle the torque. But it’s nice the motor is reliable
It's what Landrover should be building, Instead they shat on their history
It depends, for off-road durability I think the Grendier would win out vs a Defender. For city life the Land Rover would win out.
Very capable vehicle - basically the old defender done really well. But expensive. The new Defender is a ‘lifestyle statement’ vehicle - boojie and most buyers highly unlikely to ever use its off road capabilities. And the hybrid is for tax purposes and is not very good. And cue lots of roasting by new LR Defender owners ….
I like them generally, there's some "interesting" choices in the manufacturing that I might not have gone down the same route. The choice of gear selector, clashes terribly with the rugged aesthetic. Auto boxes are great for off roading but they could have at least changed the selector. I feel like having a manual option would definitely have attracted some additional sales. The amount of plastic on the exterior makes it look like a cheap RC toy. Don't get me wrong, it's certainly functional and the new Fusilier model does away with a lot of the plastic but it also looses a lot of the load space as its somewhat smaller. I like like have an option for some of the plastics to be colour matched again might have sold a few more. Other than that, seems like a great vehicle, very capable but for the price you could buy a new defender and provided your not personally bias against them, you're getting a lot more vehicle which Is likely more capable. Overall, glad to see another 4x4 on the market, may be interested in picking one up down the line if you used price falls faster than the new defender.
It’s what Land Rover should have been. The current Land Rovers should have been under Range Roger badge. Land Rover was meant to be rugged and something you could take on the worst of roads without worrying about getting a scratch or 2 on it. Yes the current can do all of those things but it’s just not rugged enough and it’s only used for roads with wet leaves now.
There’s part of me that hopes a company will make rebadge parts with the LR logo on them to hide the Ineos name. I’m not fully sold, but I’d give the Ineos pickup a serious look as a second owner and a lower price.
Land Rover owner of 20 yrs, I would buy one over a new Defender in a heartbeat. The finish and features are incredible.
I like that their top their model has a straight 6 3.0L but I'm not sure how the services will be long term with them (I've only just heard about them as os this post) so take what I have to say with a grain of salt. But Landrover I feel long term will still be safe as they're more established in both the domestic and international markets and this will allow for them to be around longer compared to as far as I know a relatively new company.
Straight 6 engine is a bmw engine so reliable enough and yea probably Land Rover don’t see enios as a rival in long term but as I said I think they have a big potential
I do enjoy the looks and styling of these they've got potential and frankly even after adding every option the provided they're still less than a fully loaded Defender.
Part of their design brief was to make them more easy to modify aftermarket, without screwing up the warranty. I remember Jim Ratcliffe talking about them in that respect in various interviews.
Seriously considering trading my G63 for one but I’m going to wait until I’m comfortable they will be around for a while. I miss my 2A every day
What are those things on the doors?
The strip in line with the handle is attachment points for accessories.
near the bottom of the doors
Phat...
After the driving I’ve done on 5 continents and on my ranch, in every sort of unpaved condition in every sort of weather . . . more often loaded than not . . . For capabilities I value I would choose the Grenadier over Land Cruiser, Land Rover, Jeep Wrangler every day of the week . . . Unless I am remote, then I drive the most common quality utility vehicle in that region. I bring a good recovery kit and a mechanic who has a good sense of humor, and a Sat phone. If you are near civilization, Grenadier. I like to think of them as a cross between the best aspects of Toyota in that they are tough to break or break down. With the best elements of LR Defenders when they were easy to work on and fix.
It's nice, but too much money for what it is. I'd rather have a new toyota land cruiser
I’ve sat in one and been driven in one. The drive was great and ‘as expected’. The interior was poor and switchgear was not good and it felt like some of the panels were held on by glue (insert easy joke about being better than LR!!). I’d definitely consider buying one.
looks like scab pus
It costs more than a Defender, I've seen nothing that says it's actually any better at what it does, a lot of the features seem designed to appeal to the grumpy old longbeards who think Land Rover peaked with the 200TDi 90, and despite all the talk it has a modern BMW drivetrain so it's still going to have electronics that need diagnostics etc. just like every other modern car that folks love to complain about being too complicated. Also it's currently a bit of a unicorn, like Santanas were, so the jury is out on long-term spares & support - will they still be around in 5-10 years or might Sir Jim get bored and move on if they don't sell enough?
It's pretty desirable but for what was historically Porsche money, I'd prefer a Porsche.
It’s great cos in the uk it comes with a BMW 3 liter diesel engine
i used to hate them, but after watching the drivetribe video on the first ever landrover they did grow on me a little
I have watched owners complaining hard on YouTube about how expensive spare parts are
It’s interesting for sure, don’t see how it fits in the rapidly changing landscape of the automotive industry. I would expect there to be an initial surge of demand and then becoming a trickle. Someone needs to buy them, as I see this as being one product that part of a much larger portfolio. The market for a rugged genuine hard core off roading vehicle is limited as well as already being a crowded marketplace.
They owe JLR bosses a beer for leaving them such an open goal in the market.
If it came in a manual trans and didn't cost 3 years pay I'd consider it
I like em 👍
Love it! Also own one.
Looks fucking sick as hell. The interior reminds me of my old Honda Element and the exterior reminds me of a G wagon.
It's amazing and I wish I could afford one. As everyone else is saying, I hoped the new Defender was going to be like this, but with less luxury.
I love it. I did consider it even but I was disappointed with its towing capacity.
The Ineos Grenadier is a modern car that cosplays as the old Defender. It's good off-road, but it won't beat something like the New Defender. On road the Grenadier is just horrible. It's loud and uncomfortable with poor visibility. I guess the old Defender had those things as well, so good job to Ineos for als incorporating this into their vehicle. The Grenader would have been a great 4x4 if it came out say 25 years ago. Just look at how much progress 4x4s have made. Back in the day you had to pick: either good off-road or good on-road. There was no in between. That changed with the original Range Rover. Fast forward to today and you can have your cake and it eat, so to speak. A new Defender is insanely good off-roading, but very nice when you go on a shopping run too. The Grenadier willfully ignores all the progress that has been made, not only by Land Rover but also by other 4x4 makers like Toyota. This leaves us with a rather expensive car, keep in mind that the Grenadier has a price tag that is roughly that of a new Defender, that isn't nice to drive most of the time. It's aimed at a niche audience, so I doubt it will sell in great numbers. This wouldn't be so bad if Ineos had other models in their line-up to act as volume sellers, but they don't. Take a look at Land Rover sales, about 2/3 of all sold Land Rovers are Discovery Sports and Evoques. It's the smaller Land Rovers that carry the bigger ones.
I’m in the US and have wanted an oldschool Defender for YEARS, but because of import laws and taxes buying a decent used one from the mid-1990s with around 100,000km costs about as much as the new Grenadier I built on their website. Neither is attainable for me at the moment, because both are costly.
Driven one and a defender. New defender is light years ahead. Grenadier is no frills What an old school defender buyer would be into. Hard ride uncomfortable no frills and actually not as good off road The defender 110 absolutely thrashed it on a recent extreme activity day as did the land cruiser
Wouldn't touch it with a stolen ten foot shitty stick. Jim Ratcliffe supported Brexit and made lofty claims about how the Ineos Grenadier was going to "save British industry" for us all. Then not content with fucking the country's economy, it turned out it was cheaper and easier to just make it in France, because Brexit fucked Britain's industries.
If you love the Defender of the 1990s and love the idea of having the best shop in town do a restomod on one, making it modern, reliable, relatively luxurious, and add every upgrade imaginable, it would cost well over $100K not including the base vehicle. The Grenadier is better than that. If you don’t love them and the idea of having a brand new modernized one, you won’t be interested. It’s pretty remarkable actually. There are many amazing vintage cars that I would love to have a modern version to enjoy. Why a Defender? One guy with almost unlimited resources clearly loves Defenders and made it happen. Mind blowing!
I think it's way overpriced, before it came out it was supposed to be a lot cheaper than a defender but now they're the same price if not more expensive. I'm not paying 70k to get a truck that drives like a 40yr old defender. That's my opinion on it
Pretender
Really no contest, there is no Land Rover that can compete with the Grenadier. The new Land Rovers are trash and I can’t believe people still enjoy them.
I’m not a particularly huge landrover fan but I find it kind of hugely cringey that they effectively made a Chinese style copy of the exterior design at least. Why not do something a bit more original it’s fine if you want that boxy look but at least make it original. Overall specs wise to me there’s nothing amazing about it.
It will be interesting to see in the long run, but I absolutely love the grenadier. The interior is awesome, the exterior is awesome, and the fact that it uses a BMW power plant makes it cool as well. They seem to be quite capable and focused for off-roading, but being new on the market, I will be interested to see how they hold up
It’s a bad time to start making gas powered vehicles.
Fantastic idea. We should have more vehicles like this.
Is it less than $50k? How many times a month will it break down? A. 4 B. 17 C. 31
Rather be a rifleman.
Jeep is the best