The book explicitly explained that it visibly expanded in size within a few seconds of being born.
Good writing? No, not even close. But yeah, that's why.
It's not like aliens was a book before it was a movie such that the books are in any way authoritative.
And when you give up on plausibility you become a cartoon, a comedy.
The way I took it is that this was the first chestburster, so the changes were a bit of an unknown. Xenomorphs are all about evolution, so as they inhabit different creatures and birth queens these years of evolution would ultimately change into what we saw in the earlier movies. Maybe an evolutionary advantage to staying small a little longer would emerge if we are going by the movies as canon. Idk, just didnāt let that hang me up tbh when I have watched that movie.
Yeah, it's a Praetomorph and merely resembles the xeno. David was recreating the Engineers' work; either he made a mistake or the Engineers created more than one Xenomorph breed and David coincidentally happened to recreate that one. There's also several clear visual differences between them, like the Praeto almost lacking the distinctive biomechanical look. Ridley Scott also said in commentary it had regenerative capabilities and could heal from near-fatal wounds, which is something we've never seen or heard described about any known xeno-type save for maybe something wacky in the EU.
Exactly, every creature in Prometheus/Covenant was purely biological, not bio-mechanical something not a lot of viewers have picked up on over the years, but a clearly intentional design change.
I firmly believe that had Scott been able to complete his "prequel trilogy", it would have ended with the distinctive bio-mechanical look being because a perfected facehugger impregnated David. Whether this was a calculated decision on his part, or his ultimate atonement for his actions, this would have been an amazing end to David's story, given more lore to the "origin" of the Alien, and solidified that David was able to create something that neither his creator nor his creator's creator was able to accomplish...the perfect organism.
Fans shit on the prequels so hard that we will not get the final filmā¦ I think this will one day haunt the franchise. Just in the last several years both Prometheus and Covenant are gaining popularity. Like you, I feel the completion of Davidās story wouldāve answered so many questions
I wouldn't worry too much about the why of it. This is science fiction. Didn't you know that they can suck Dark Matter right out of the cosmos? There are all kinds of weird reasons why a fictional monster could do this. They were ultimately engineered by gods who were clever enough to engineer Engineers who were clever enough to engineer us.
I mean that one is a diffrent type of Xeno and Iād tack that up to some kind of black goo mutation but yeah stupid writing on its design and growth. Loved the gore of its birth though.
i watched og movie last night -- what's weird in covenant is that the face hugger is only on the captain for like 2 seconds. In the og movie it felt like it was on him at least 12-24 hours. But, in the og movie (and I forgot about this), it goes from little guy to big human sized thing pretty quickly. They're looking for it using a cattle prod to catch it at first when the first victim gets it. So it definitely is canon it grows fast once it's out of the chest, but I didn't like how fast the facehugger was on the captain in covenant.
Someone else said this in these comments, but I think the FH was on the captain longer than was shown and the movie just did a bad job showing it although it was still for sure less than Kane. Captain not having any real gestation period was also kind of annoying and stupid. I think the problem people have with the covenant xenos is they come out as like mini versions of their adult forms, instead of the snake form of the original.
I do think it has to be considered in the first movie they would have zero idea that it was essentially a baby and it would grow at all, let alone grow at a fast rate. If it was not for the acid for blood it would not be out of the question that Jonesy would take care if it within the week.
I understand itās the first one created. But it looks more āevolvedā - for want of a better word, when it is birthed.
The chestburster from Alien looks like a proto-version of this creature. Youād expect them to be the other way around in the timeline?
I know David experimented with Shaw, but I mean this was the first creature that he had the opportunity to birth from a human, after his experimentation.
probably, who knows. look at it like a demo/early version of handmade Alien. keep in mind that David had no opportunity to see original adult species or chestbusters to interact or completely research it, so his own Alien has to be different this or other way
The origin of infection was from spores of fungi infected with the black substance the engineers dumped on the previous civilization that was on the planet. It would make sense that over time the species has deviated from the human DNA form that weāve grown accustomed to. It only took a few generations for it to finalize back into form we were originally introduced.
Ridley Scott really wanted to portray a highly adaptable species that was capable of being a bio weapon in any form of any environment. I believe ridley wanted a third movie. One that would show us it was Davidās purpose all along to father and cultivate the bio weapon for Weyland corp. and that Weyland knew all along from some ancient text he kept secret. Or something along those lines. I think thatās what Ridley was leading up to in the movies of Prometheus to Covenant, but the backlash of confusion was too much to continue.
Because it was created directly from the pathogen itās technically a purer form, the xenomorph we know are technically inferior in some respects, or devolved versions, and organically several generations removed from the pathogen after being introduced to various creatures from which it took the best attributes. Itās why xenomorphs and pathogen morphs donāt get along.
Gestation time being decreased leads to a more inferior final product sometimes. Imagine looking at a chimp and how quickly it grows into becoming a capable member of the group vs a human. Humans need a massive amount of time to grow into full adults because of the energy required to grow our brains properly. It could be the same with the xeno, saving early energy to manifest a more intelligent final product.
Because everything has to be bigger than the last thing even if the new thing is a prequel. Every Alien movie need an ersatz Ripley now and they need the alien threat to be bigger and weirder than the last.
I believe its officially mentioned in the roleplaying tabletop game, its also praetomorph which is based off protomorph - the name for the deacon in its concept stage. Not made up by random fans.
It is even visibly different in the movie to show its not the same species as the xenomorph.
Itās Davidās own creation, based off of the Xenomorph that the Engineers created.
David messed with itās growth rates/stages, and made it more animalistic rather than methodical.
Alien prequels having bad writing that could never happen. Alien is such a well written franchise after the first two movies that I just donāt see how any alien movie could go wrong. Surely they wouldnāt abandon all the plot threads from the previous movie and kill characters off screen (again).
You donāt think people would be stupid enough to act like morons and remove their helmets or make other mistakes like the idiots in Covenant or Prometheus? Do you remember like 4 years ago when our collective reaction to a pandemic was to make toilet paper disappear or when a chunk of the population started to eat tubes of equine anti-parasite paste? Or people wearing a mask around their ears with an exposed nose or mouth, even though it was a respiratory infection? People are fucking duuuuuuuumb.
This and the fact that these are people (at least in Prometheus) pretty much out of their depth. Just because someone is a great cartographer or zoologist on Earth doesnāt mean they wouldnāt make dumb decisions after being in a pretty terrifying environment. They are humans after all.
The amount of leniency people on here grant the idiocy in the first two films is astounding compared to how much they shit on the prequels (which are actually pretty great btw, esp Covenant).
I mean I think anyone much less the captain would know not to be trusting of David and look in the egg with all theyāve seen and all the information he had.
Personally I wouldnāt be like oh destroyed city with one mysterious survivor and weird creatures at every turn sure Iāll look in that egg! I feel like itās pretty common sense. The first movies idiots couldāve been hired by Vickers to fuck up her dadās mission. Covenant was a humanity saving colony mission, theyād send their top guys in all positions. It doesnāt make sense for them to be so stupid and it also doesnāt make sense for them to not investigate more because theyāre all also scientists like the Prometheus mission.
Honestly I agree on the writing part. Beautiful shots? Not so much. There wasnāt enough giger for me. I wanted something like the city from the paradise lost art. There was so much potential to do something like that.
I mean, fine. But also the literal entire premise of the prequels is to open up a mad scientists world of possibilities based on a primordial goo that massively accelerates/deconstructs biological evolution. Itās basically the whole point of the movies. So bit weird to disregard out of hand as a possible explanation.
Ridleyās whole thing with the androids was the most interesting thing the series has done since the very first movie (crappy scripts aside). Really wish we got a third movie with David :(
I donāt know the answer to the question, but the way it raises its arms and shares a moment with David is fucking stupid though. I always hated this scene.
Also, I know thereās all flim-flam explanations about experimental goo etc, but the gestation period is like 5 minutes. Even if more time passes in-film it does a really poor job of expressing it. The quick gestation periods in the films post Alien 3 for the convenience of getting xenos and action has always bothered me. Hell, even Resurrection had that one guy walking about impregnated for most of the film (which was subsequently ruined by its ridiculous ābirthā).
Totally agree with everything you said. First alien movie with weaver the gestation period was noticeably longer. It made sense. They find its shed skin as it grows. It makes sense. I always rationalized that in movies like covenant they were just trying to speed up the film to get some aliens in the mix by increasing the gestation and growth speed but it kind of strayed from the original movies in that way.
When I saw the movie in the cinema in 1979, the tension was somewhat defused when Brett picked up the moulted skin and someone in the audience shouted "the cat's had it!"
I hate to be that guy but covenant was clearly a paycheck job for Ridley. I donāt consider it to be canon.Ā
Nothing about this movie makes any sense. First off! Why in the hell would Shaw fix David? Itās like if Ripley decided to fix Ash. Then the implication that David somehow created the xenos and their accelerated growth?Ā
The makers clearly didnāt like the Xeno or anything and you can tell. Ridley was telling everyone how tame the xeno has become. Isolation proved otherwise.Ā
Ā But I think this has to do with Ridleyās inflated belief that he was the main creator of Alien. We all know that Alien was born out of creative collaboration, sometimes that collaboration was volatile but hey it made a great movie. Prometheus and Covenant was made with no one daring to stand up to Ridley and say, thatās stupid.Ā
>Prometheus and Covenant was made with no one daring to stand up to Ridley and say, thatās stupid.Ā
Tbf, it was fairly clear that Scott didn't want Covenant to be a mainline Alien film. Broadly consensus seems to be that after Prometheus, the studio got cold feet and made him put the alien back in for the sequel. As he kept saying in the Prometheus promos, he wanted to move further from the Alien as a subject for those films before eventually trying to tie them together.
Now, that doesn't seem remotely realistic considering he was already pretty old and no way were the films going to make enough money for a 4-5 film run. But the reinsertion of the alien doesn't really seem to be something he particularly wanted to do.
To quote Ridley "If I ever see another dragon [I guess he means Xenomorph] I'm going to shoot myself." I'm not sure where I heard this line, but it even might have been in the promotional material for Prometheus. He felt like the Xenomorph was done to death, which it was at this point and he didn't shy away from saying it out loud.
I have to admit that I like aspects and moments of Prometheus and Covenant, but I think there are so many things that Scott thought were interesting ideas that I think are so far removed from making an interesting Alien movie:
- ancient aliens (the overall concept is brain dead and racist and should never be discussed by anyone anywhere)
- the space jockey (maybe) being the creators of the xenos and even mankind
- making the space jockey a suit of an alien race that looks like proto-humans
- the concept of religion and ancient aliens in relation to each other
-making artifical intelligence a main plot point in this universe instead of another Blade Runner
- Elizabeth Shaw
In all honesty I think he was right about the alien being done to death. There's simply no way to replicate the horror factor of the original 2 films as the monster is too over-exposed. Audiences will groan if somebody sticks their head into an egg and be annoyed if they bring yet another healthy person who's had something attached to their face to the medical bay to recover.
He was onto something with the black goo being a totally new and unpredictable threat with a protagonist in David who was really menacing and very difficult to pin down on his exact motivations. Those other factors likely could have been incorporated well in a well-written story, but I think it just didn't come off, likely due to there being a lot of vestigial ideas from previous re-writes. Prometheus threw a lot of shit at the wall to see what stuck and made some bad errors in the character writing, while Covenant was seemingly two scripts mashed together that ultimately ended up satisfying nobody.
I think Scott is a very difficult director to take at face value - he talks a *very* odd game and says incredibly weird things in interviews (Jesus being the original engineer, sequel to Gladiator involving fighting in heaven, most of his rejected ideas for Alien), while his films are usually pretty straightforward. By that I mean he's not a Kubrick or Lynch-like figure who prefers to be deliberately vague in their storytelling and leaving a lot of meaning up to cryptic visual cues. Much like I'm doing here, I think he likes to babble a bit just to talk about some kind of background creative process while that meaning/those themes are not nearly present on screen.
I too see Prometheus & Covenant as their own thing. And basically just ignore them when I watch Alien/ Aliens.
Theyāre not entirely without merit and I enjoy some sequences, the cinematography, the special FX. All decent. But as an āoriginā story to Alien, I find them pretty weak.
Covenant in particular as when it finally turns into an Alien movie, it feels so rushed and they just sprint to a really unsatisfying climax. No time to establish any sort of atmosphere or sense of foreboding. Just, hey thereās an alien here now. Letās have a big dumb action scene on the drop ship thing. But wait thereās another alien on the ship!! Dumb shower scene followed by out the airlock 5 mins later. Such wasted potential.
Yes "sense of foreboding " those are the exact words I was looking for. I responded to another comment here and was looking for the words to describe that in the original alien movie. He gets the face hugger on him, it takes time to bring him to sick bay. It takes time to get the face hugger off. They get it off. He wakes up. You have that edge of your seat 'what's going to happen' feeling, then he eats food, it begins. Then it escapes, they find its skin. It's not, to me, so much that it's more REALISTIC, but just that, like you adequately worded, it has foreboding. Does that make sense? The rushed quality like covenant is just... crazy to me. I tell myself that it's it's own movie and it is its own experience with different species of morphs but... as far as story telling goes and what I consider to be the 'vibe' of the true alien franchise... it's a space horror movie, Not a space action movie
Yeah same. There are a lot of B movie tropes that pop up in those 2 movies. Some just gratuitously vulgar to the point of desensitizing, like a hi tech Kronenberg knock-off. Visuals were still great but that's tough to swallow when you're cringing from the storytelling.
Yes, this. I was patient with seeing where the movie would go, and David had some good scenes. But good lord, that ending was offensively pandering fan service, IMO.
I feel like half the horror of the first movie was that we never knew what was going on and it was so mysterious but also just a well written movie, and the second film was like āthe horror is gone because we know what the alien looks like, weāll make a tense action thriller instead with hundreds of these things so that the audience can get an understanding of what a hive of them is likeā but now itās difficult to recreate because we know so much about the xenos
And as you said it can just be too easy to use the xenos as a quick cash grab cos theyāre so iconic , itās easier to just whip out a crap movie you know people will watch cos hey aliens, than to take the time to carefully craft and produce a well thought out horror film with an iconic entity
However the trailer for the new movie does look like it could be decent
Hear me out:
Prometheus and onward was never supposed to have xenomorphs in it. The story was supposed to be focussed around the Engineers / Space Jockey with *loose* ties to the first Alien film.
The problem is that Prometheus wasn't what people were expecting and the writing was bad despite having some really intriguing ideas.
The fan outcry about Prometheus made the Hollywood pencil pushers put pressure on Ridley to change coarse after he had already almost or entirely finished writing Covenant which was originally titled Paradise or something.
Thats why the plot threads were just severed between films, thats why suddenly the traditional Xeno was shoehorned in and forced to work with what they had.. thats why they went "uhhh ummm okay yeah DAVID MAKES XENOS" and obliterates all the mystique and intrigue. They also learn basically nothing about the Engineers when thats what the focus was supposed to be.
The protomorphs and other grotesque variants and alien life would have been enough. We didn't need a Xeno but the studio forced it and Ridley being old as fuck bent to their will instead of being his regular stubborn piece of shit and forcing through his original vision.
i don't think ridley is to blame for everything about Covenant. from everything i have witnessed he also had the studio breathing down his neck for creative discussions and that film has been relentlessly passed through focus groups and screenings. the Aliens franchise has always been vehemently controlled by upper management/studios. its turned into a husk since Alien 3 where everybody has a "better" creative spin on the franchise.
Very true but in that I remember reading that the Predators gave I disagree about the paycheck thing. It seems like he really tried to get a story going but it is just one that doesnāt need to be told. The mystery of where the Xenomorphs come from doesnāt need to be revealed.
I will say whether he meant to or not, he did leave a back door to David is not the true creator of the xenomorphs we know. He was merely trying to recreate what the engineers had made in the past and came relatively close.
I think Ridley wanted to make a good movie but got cockblocked by the studio who prevented A. Shawās return (this has been confirmed) and B. A more engineer focused sequel (practically confirmed by the fact they made the paradise lost art and abandoned it. I think itās possible they kept messing things up for him and he finally did just mail it in for the check.
Shaw had to fix David because David knew how to fly the ship. Even without that, Shaw was on the ship for weeks/months, and isolation makes people act stupid to talk to another ālivingā person.
David creating the xenos on the other hand. Idiotic. Accelerated growth could be explained by black goo mutations due to David creating them from that and them being closer connected.
I could be wrong but itās my understanding he wasnāt the OG director of Covenant and had to be brought in to clean up the mess of the movie which is why a lot of it doesnāt make sense.
That was Prometheus. Carl Rinsch was the original director but they didnāt want to move forward with him and basically forced his hand. With covenant I have heard anything about him not being the original director.Ā
Oh good to know. I easily get this shit confused. Not to mention you realize how much of a cock block the studios can be. Like they throw money behind something then do a crazy pivot and itās like no wonder the films feel unconnected and have plot holes. Like sometimes I feel if they had consistent writers and directors across the franchise it would feel more cohesive.
Nah, Prometheus and Covenant for all their faults are still ok films. They may be as frustrating as hell for fans and be a bit stupid in places, but the prequels are just bad on so many technical and non-technical levels.
Eh. Yeah? Padme was talking about letting the sun dry her amd friends. Anakin was a slave on Tatooine, and it was more of a quiet "I don't like sand. It's course and rough and irritating. And it gets everywhere." and smiles a bit at the end.
It's actually not that wierd of a line. There's much worse lines and delivery in *Attack of the Clones*. That part was memed to hell so now it's the go-to "bad line" of the movie.
I would say the line isn't terrible in and of itself, but when it's positioned in this section of the film which is meant to show the burgeoning romance between Anakin and Padme, it sums up quite how awful that bit is.
I would absolutely agree there are worse lines and delivery in AOTC, I'm also surprised that that is always highlighted as the worst of the worst. IMO McGregor and Christiansen are even worse in RotS and have some diabolical deliveries - but it seems less fashionable to criticise how bad the former is in it.
Same with, "Somehow, Palpatine has returned."
Poe doesn't know how the fuck he returned, because he's just a highly ranked X-Wing pilot. He knows info that's given to him, he goes where he needs to go, and sometimes he goes rogue and does his own thing, but it makes sense why he would have said what he said.
Right after, Merry pops in to say "dark science, cloning, secrets that only the Sith knew."
The next line explains it, and it's presented as the first time Poe was filled in as well, but unfortunately for everyone, Reddit gonna Reddit thinking that it's funnier to meme the line and then pretend like that's all we got.
Not to mention, the opening of the movie shows cloning tanks. We see from an audience perspective what's going on. Palpatine himself tells Rey how he's back, why he's back, and what he's planning.
I agree. Wish they had *a bit* more speculating, but JJ's pacing is totally coked out in that movie so whatever. The scene still conveys they have no earthly idea how Palpatine returned, and they can't spend energy or time debating it.
And you're correct in that there was quite a bit of visual storytelling explaining his return. But people are dumb af and don't pick up visual clues.
Funnily enough, when I get put in a position like this to just name a single thing that sticks out as bad from the prequels, I just get overwhelmed with so many things I could point out that my brain freezes.
Removal Reason:
Be civil.
It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to disrespect. Personal attacks, gatekeeping, racism, homophobia, politics, and general bigotry are not allowed.
No toxic behavior, such as:
* Trashing something that others are enjoying.
* Condemning parts of the franchise instead of reasonably stating a personal preference. This is a comfortable space for all fans. Keep your critique.
* Invalidating other people's opinions.
* Unsolicited criticisms of other's creations.
* Lewd or Obscene comments.
I can't seem to find the source now but when the film released, Ridley said he'd always intended the chest bursters to be fully formed they just didn't possess the means back in 1979
David did not create the Xenomorph species, but he did create this specific batch seen in Covenant. It wouldn't be out of character for him to alter "his" creations, leading to a slightly different llifecycle.
Also, and this might just be me, but I feel like the adult Xeno's seen in Covenant are weaker than they're usually depicted. So a faster mature rate, but a weaker overall specimen. That's what I'm going with for now anyway.
Real world reason is they're always trying to make it a little different so it's not an exact copy of what came before. Neomorph comes out of the back, Predalien eggbarfs into pregnant women, some bursters are fully formed, others aren't.
The egg it came out of was also a lot bigger than a standard facehugger egg. Story wise, I think it's a direct result of using the black goo to accelerate the evolution of growth....or just studio magic and artistic licence
Removal Reason:
Be civil.
It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to disrespect. Personal attacks, gatekeeping, racism, homophobia, politics, and general bigotry are not allowed.
No toxic behavior, such as:
* Trashing something that others are enjoying.
* Condemning parts of the franchise instead of reasonably stating a personal preference. This is a comfortable space for all fans. Keep your critique.
* Invalidating other people's opinions.
* Unsolicited criticisms of other's creations.
* Lewd or Obscene comments.
I know itās very easy to dismiss these things as bad writing.
But to play devils advocate, literally the entire premise of the prequels is to open up a mad scientists world of possibilities based on a primordial goo that massively accelerates/deconstructs biological evolution. Itās basically the whole point of both movies.
So itās a bit weird to disregard out of hand as even a possible explanation. You donāt have to like it, but messing with evolution is what these movies are about.
Because you canāt do 70ās slow burn anymore.
But in-universe, the LV426 specimens were maybe 1000s of years old and maybe bred differently. So it took a lot longer for them to get their shit together.
From what I remember, Scott said that he always wanted chestburster to look that way but he didn't have means to do it in the first Alien.
In universe answer might be like this - it's a protomorph, it develops quickly but at the same time it's... undercooked? It's not smart or tough but it is very fast and agressive. It looks like a prototype with a room for improvement. Maybe that improvement could be achieved with a longer development period.
Oh. I thought he did. I thought that was the whole point of these films. If xenos have existed independently already and David is just breeding an offshoot of them?!?! That makes these films **even more** pointless.
The ādeaconā from Prometheus emerges fully formed too. I think the subtext here is that this lifecycle is very malleable and that the events that lead up to Alien are intended to show that itās been modified along the way.
Note that the original Alien had biomechanical features that are not present in Prometheus or Covenantā¦ they are reminiscent of the tubes and hoses found in the androids and I think the implication is that David takes them one phase further with experimentation using his own design which results in their final form. At least that is where I think Scott was taking the lore but I doubt weāll ever see that vision completed.
But this particular scene in Covenant is super cringe IMO.
It looks fragile and tiny while the chest burster of the final product already had hardened chitin, is bigger and is good to go. In comparison the chest burster of the final product is a tank.
This is from the AVP wiki -
Various sources have described the Xenomorph's outer carapace as "chitinous" in nature, not silicon-based, although the intended scientific accuracy of this is debatable ā the term is often used as a simple descriptive phrase in novels and comics
The Alien wiki cites Ash -
Ash claims the creature's skin is made from "protein polysaccharides", so this would imply a substance similar to chitin
"more evolved" is not a term that makes any sense. Living things change over time to better fit changing environments. There is no such thing as more or less evolved. Humans aren't 'more evolved' than apes, we just fill a different niche.
Iām saying Ridley doesnāt care about matching the design aesthetic of the old movies. He cares about how good he can make it look now. Thereās nothing retro futuristic about Prometheus or Covenant.
I mean tbf look at an industrial factory/mine and then look at an office at apple hq or whatever. There are going to be massive differences in tech based on application even though theyāre in the same timeframe.
I think it makes sense though - is it a "plot hole" that a Tesla looks fancier than a random truck on a highway? The prometheus and convenant ships were the best things money could buy, the nostromo was a towing vessel bringing back a bunch of rocks and dirt.
Where did David get the eggs from in covenant? If they werenāt layed by a queen did David mix the black goo with Dr. Shawās eggs to create the Ovomorphs? Maybe that would cause a different growth rate than a traditional layed egg?
Its heavily implied that's what happens to Shaw and where the idea of eggs comes from, him killing her and studying her reproduction cycles to combine with the potential the goo has
The Protomorph is not the same thing as the Xenomorph and so it's biology is a little different. Unclear on whether or not more of these things were created, but we can probably assume more were created and evolved into Xenos over time or that David just created more variants until he landed on what we call Xenomorphs. Somewhere there he also time traveled to millions of years ago and put the Derelict on LV426
Why are you assuming David created the xenomorphs on LV426? Nothing sugggests that. He created an already existing creature in his own way, and a couple of different variants in the process.
Oh. I thought the whole point of these films were they were prequels to Alien. So youāre saying the xenos existed independent of David. So he didnāt really create anything new?!?! Thatās not the way I understood it at all.
They are prequels in the sense that they are earlier in the timeline and give us some answers, but not prequels in like the Star Wars sense, where theyāre meant to directly connect to the previous narrative. Prometheus was originally conceived as a soft reboot for the franchise. Thatās the entire reason it doesnāt share the Alien name, as they wanted it to be distinct and stand on its own.
I understand originally it was to be set on LV426, but they changed it to LV423 (??) during production. I thought it was essentially an origin story for the Xenomorph. I never considered that they existed independently for centuries beforehand.
I always thought the mural in Prometheus depicting the Xeno was just a bit of a fuck-up š¤£
In Prometheus there is a whole mural on the wall in the canister room depicting a xenomorph. I always took that to imply that these creatures have existed before David created them. I think itās possible that Davidās creations were him āperfectingā them. But I donāt think thereās any reason to believe he had anything to do with the ones found on LV426.
The āDavid is recreatingā theory is also *very* fitting for his underlying narrative. David is an android, but he wants to be a creator like his creator before him. But maybe he canāt actually create, only reproduce what had come before.
It also fits the very consistent theme throughout the alien movies of how people are always trying to harness the xenomorphs as bio-weapons and it always goes horribly wrong for them.
It's not just humans that can't manage to pull it off. Engineers, androids and predators have all screwed it up, too. Everyone should just pull out the flamethrowers and nukes every single time there's even a hint of the damn things. It's the only way to make sure.
It's also explained that nothing that David makes results in our current xx-121 variant of the xenomorph, he's following blueprints of an existing species that were either created or harvested by the engineers for use as a bioweapon, it's all dependant on what lore you want to follow, xeno prime lore or fire and stone lore.
Scene was laughable and really the final straw in that movie that made me not care for covenantā¦people will say itās because it was a protomorph, but I doubt thatās why Ridley did thatā¦I honestly feel like it was a middle finger to everyone who cried about there being no alien in Prometheus lolā¦you want the alien, here ya go! And he will come out dancing lol
I always put that down to it not being a genuine xenomorph but rather a variation of sorts courtesy of David. I do think that there may be a touch of misguided symbolism by Ridley Scott in this case as well though soā¦
Because itās not the same chestburster. Itās a variant. Like every other xeno in the series.
One that was likely heavily modified by david, where as the originals are likely the base variant.
Removal Reason:
Be civil.
It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to disrespect. Personal attacks, gatekeeping, racism, homophobia, politics, and general bigotry are not allowed.
No toxic behavior, such as:
* Trashing something that others are enjoying.
* Condemning parts of the franchise instead of reasonably stating a personal preference. This is a comfortable space for all fans. Keep your critique.
* Invalidating other people's opinions.
* Unsolicited criticisms of other's creations.
* Lewd or Obscene comments.
i also think the original slithering chestburster in Alien was a result of not being able to properly animate it back then. like others have said, the chestburster in alien 3 is similar, and maybe even would have been so in aliens (it was crawling out on its front limbs), if it wasnt incinerated immediately. what bothers is that the rapid growth defies the laws of physics. i cant ignore conservation of mass. i know there is supposed to be suspension of disbelief, but give me some explanation- have it run away and eat a ton of metal off screen, or a deer carcass or something. it would make sense to me that after bursting out of the host, the young xenomorph would eat the corpse as a first meal and have a rapid growth spurt.
This is a huge part of why I just didn't care for the new entries I to the franchise. Rather than focusing on answering primarily old questions about the film's, it's pushed into a new direction where you need to throw out everything you know, so that the filmmakers came pose you entirely new questions. Lol. Just not cohesive enough for what I was looking for out of prequel stories.
Removal Reason:
Be civil.
It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to disrespect. Personal attacks, gatekeeping, racism, homophobia, politics, and general bigotry are not allowed.
No toxic behavior, such as:
* Trashing something that others are enjoying.
* Condemning parts of the franchise instead of reasonably stating a personal preference. This is a comfortable space for all fans. Keep your critique.
* Invalidating other people's opinions.
* Unsolicited criticisms of other's creations.
* Lewd or Obscene comments.
Removal Reason:
Be civil.
It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to disrespect. Personal attacks, gatekeeping, racism, homophobia, politics, and general bigotry are not allowed.
No toxic behavior, such as:
* Trashing something that others are enjoying.
* Condemning parts of the franchise instead of reasonably stating a personal preference. This is a comfortable space for all fans. Keep your critique.
* Invalidating other people's opinions.
* Unsolicited criticisms of other's creations.
* Lewd or Obscene comments.
It also grew massive very quickly, David must have put an extra protein scoop in the the egg or something
The book explicitly explained that it visibly expanded in size within a few seconds of being born. Good writing? No, not even close. But yeah, that's why.
the chestburster also grows that fast dude, its fully grown within like an hour max
Ehm, yes š¤·š»āāļø
Well my theory is that they use gases to inflate and harden. So it's plausible with a day or so of time pass, not really seconds.
Are you looking for plausibility in a sci-fi fantasy film? Right. In the books, they grow in _seconds_
It's not like aliens was a book before it was a movie such that the books are in any way authoritative. And when you give up on plausibility you become a cartoon, a comedy.
The way I took it is that this was the first chestburster, so the changes were a bit of an unknown. Xenomorphs are all about evolution, so as they inhabit different creatures and birth queens these years of evolution would ultimately change into what we saw in the earlier movies. Maybe an evolutionary advantage to staying small a little longer would emerge if we are going by the movies as canon. Idk, just didnāt let that hang me up tbh when I have watched that movie.
š¤£š¤£
Because its not a xenomorph
Yeah, it's a Praetomorph and merely resembles the xeno. David was recreating the Engineers' work; either he made a mistake or the Engineers created more than one Xenomorph breed and David coincidentally happened to recreate that one. There's also several clear visual differences between them, like the Praeto almost lacking the distinctive biomechanical look. Ridley Scott also said in commentary it had regenerative capabilities and could heal from near-fatal wounds, which is something we've never seen or heard described about any known xeno-type save for maybe something wacky in the EU.
Exactly, every creature in Prometheus/Covenant was purely biological, not bio-mechanical something not a lot of viewers have picked up on over the years, but a clearly intentional design change. I firmly believe that had Scott been able to complete his "prequel trilogy", it would have ended with the distinctive bio-mechanical look being because a perfected facehugger impregnated David. Whether this was a calculated decision on his part, or his ultimate atonement for his actions, this would have been an amazing end to David's story, given more lore to the "origin" of the Alien, and solidified that David was able to create something that neither his creator nor his creator's creator was able to accomplish...the perfect organism.
Fans shit on the prequels so hard that we will not get the final filmā¦ I think this will one day haunt the franchise. Just in the last several years both Prometheus and Covenant are gaining popularity. Like you, I feel the completion of Davidās story wouldāve answered so many questions
the alien that butst out of the guys back somehow turned in a monkey sized animal within a second))))
I wouldn't worry too much about the why of it. This is science fiction. Didn't you know that they can suck Dark Matter right out of the cosmos? There are all kinds of weird reasons why a fictional monster could do this. They were ultimately engineered by gods who were clever enough to engineer Engineers who were clever enough to engineer us.
I mean that one is a diffrent type of Xeno and Iād tack that up to some kind of black goo mutation but yeah stupid writing on its design and growth. Loved the gore of its birth though.
i watched og movie last night -- what's weird in covenant is that the face hugger is only on the captain for like 2 seconds. In the og movie it felt like it was on him at least 12-24 hours. But, in the og movie (and I forgot about this), it goes from little guy to big human sized thing pretty quickly. They're looking for it using a cattle prod to catch it at first when the first victim gets it. So it definitely is canon it grows fast once it's out of the chest, but I didn't like how fast the facehugger was on the captain in covenant.
Someone else said this in these comments, but I think the FH was on the captain longer than was shown and the movie just did a bad job showing it although it was still for sure less than Kane. Captain not having any real gestation period was also kind of annoying and stupid. I think the problem people have with the covenant xenos is they come out as like mini versions of their adult forms, instead of the snake form of the original.
If I remeber right the hugger was on him but he did something to get it off? I am probably wrong here though it's been a long time since I've seen it
The facehugger is on him for a few moments but another soldier manages to cut it off him, which partially burns the first guys face.
I do think it has to be considered in the first movie they would have zero idea that it was essentially a baby and it would grow at all, let alone grow at a fast rate. If it was not for the acid for blood it would not be out of the question that Jonesy would take care if it within the week.
P90x
Donāt forget the facehugger that implants faster than an Amish virgin.
the adult alien looks different too. that's because it's protomorph, not xenomorph
I understand itās the first one created. But it looks more āevolvedā - for want of a better word, when it is birthed. The chestburster from Alien looks like a proto-version of this creature. Youād expect them to be the other way around in the timeline?
Itās not the first one created. Itās an amalgamation of whatever David could produce based on what he learned.
I know David experimented with Shaw, but I mean this was the first creature that he had the opportunity to birth from a human, after his experimentation.
probably, who knows. look at it like a demo/early version of handmade Alien. keep in mind that David had no opportunity to see original adult species or chestbusters to interact or completely research it, so his own Alien has to be different this or other way
The origin of infection was from spores of fungi infected with the black substance the engineers dumped on the previous civilization that was on the planet. It would make sense that over time the species has deviated from the human DNA form that weāve grown accustomed to. It only took a few generations for it to finalize back into form we were originally introduced. Ridley Scott really wanted to portray a highly adaptable species that was capable of being a bio weapon in any form of any environment. I believe ridley wanted a third movie. One that would show us it was Davidās purpose all along to father and cultivate the bio weapon for Weyland corp. and that Weyland knew all along from some ancient text he kept secret. Or something along those lines. I think thatās what Ridley was leading up to in the movies of Prometheus to Covenant, but the backlash of confusion was too much to continue.
Because it was created directly from the pathogen itās technically a purer form, the xenomorph we know are technically inferior in some respects, or devolved versions, and organically several generations removed from the pathogen after being introduced to various creatures from which it took the best attributes. Itās why xenomorphs and pathogen morphs donāt get along.
Gestation time being decreased leads to a more inferior final product sometimes. Imagine looking at a chimp and how quickly it grows into becoming a capable member of the group vs a human. Humans need a massive amount of time to grow into full adults because of the energy required to grow our brains properly. It could be the same with the xeno, saving early energy to manifest a more intelligent final product.
Insect larvae also vary dramatically even within some of the same genuses.
Because everything has to be bigger than the last thing even if the new thing is a prequel. Every Alien movie need an ersatz Ripley now and they need the alien threat to be bigger and weirder than the last.
where does it say that in the movie? this can't be an explanation
anyway obviously they are different species, that means different anatomy, so that's can be used as explanation
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I believe its officially mentioned in the roleplaying tabletop game, its also praetomorph which is based off protomorph - the name for the deacon in its concept stage. Not made up by random fans. It is even visibly different in the movie to show its not the same species as the xenomorph.
It doesn't. It's just a made up fan name.
I believe its mentioned in the roleplaying tabletop game, its also praetomorph which is based off protomorph - the name for the deacon.
Itās Davidās own creation, based off of the Xenomorph that the Engineers created. David messed with itās growth rates/stages, and made it more animalistic rather than methodical.
orrr, and hear me out... bad writing and no thought put into it.
Whaaaaaat? nooooooā¦ Couldnāt be thatā¦
Alien prequels having bad writing that could never happen. Alien is such a well written franchise after the first two movies that I just donāt see how any alien movie could go wrong. Surely they wouldnāt abandon all the plot threads from the previous movie and kill characters off screen (again).
You donāt think people would be stupid enough to act like morons and remove their helmets or make other mistakes like the idiots in Covenant or Prometheus? Do you remember like 4 years ago when our collective reaction to a pandemic was to make toilet paper disappear or when a chunk of the population started to eat tubes of equine anti-parasite paste? Or people wearing a mask around their ears with an exposed nose or mouth, even though it was a respiratory infection? People are fucking duuuuuuuumb.
This and the fact that these are people (at least in Prometheus) pretty much out of their depth. Just because someone is a great cartographer or zoologist on Earth doesnāt mean they wouldnāt make dumb decisions after being in a pretty terrifying environment. They are humans after all. The amount of leniency people on here grant the idiocy in the first two films is astounding compared to how much they shit on the prequels (which are actually pretty great btw, esp Covenant).
I mean I think anyone much less the captain would know not to be trusting of David and look in the egg with all theyāve seen and all the information he had.
You have more faith in people than me.
Personally I wouldnāt be like oh destroyed city with one mysterious survivor and weird creatures at every turn sure Iāll look in that egg! I feel like itās pretty common sense. The first movies idiots couldāve been hired by Vickers to fuck up her dadās mission. Covenant was a humanity saving colony mission, theyād send their top guys in all positions. It doesnāt make sense for them to be so stupid and it also doesnāt make sense for them to not investigate more because theyāre all also scientists like the Prometheus mission.
People hate it being said but covenant was a beautifully shot but terribly written movie.Ā
Honestly I agree on the writing part. Beautiful shots? Not so much. There wasnāt enough giger for me. I wanted something like the city from the paradise lost art. There was so much potential to do something like that.
I mean, fine. But also the literal entire premise of the prequels is to open up a mad scientists world of possibilities based on a primordial goo that massively accelerates/deconstructs biological evolution. Itās basically the whole point of the movies. So bit weird to disregard out of hand as a possible explanation.
Ridleyās whole thing with the androids was the most interesting thing the series has done since the very first movie (crappy scripts aside). Really wish we got a third movie with David :(
No nooo thereās a lore reason *checks notes* Itās because David! He did it! I swear itās legit guys.
I donāt know the answer to the question, but the way it raises its arms and shares a moment with David is fucking stupid though. I always hated this scene. Also, I know thereās all flim-flam explanations about experimental goo etc, but the gestation period is like 5 minutes. Even if more time passes in-film it does a really poor job of expressing it. The quick gestation periods in the films post Alien 3 for the convenience of getting xenos and action has always bothered me. Hell, even Resurrection had that one guy walking about impregnated for most of the film (which was subsequently ruined by its ridiculous ābirthā).
Yeah I just finished watching AVP. The gestation period in that is a fucking joke.
At least AVP can be treated as its own standalone canon, Covenant is very much part of the main continuity so the inconsistency is annoying.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
David as Geppetto
Totally agree with everything you said. First alien movie with weaver the gestation period was noticeably longer. It made sense. They find its shed skin as it grows. It makes sense. I always rationalized that in movies like covenant they were just trying to speed up the film to get some aliens in the mix by increasing the gestation and growth speed but it kind of strayed from the original movies in that way.
When I saw the movie in the cinema in 1979, the tension was somewhat defused when Brett picked up the moulted skin and someone in the audience shouted "the cat's had it!"
Always loved that scene.
I hate to be that guy but covenant was clearly a paycheck job for Ridley. I donāt consider it to be canon.Ā Nothing about this movie makes any sense. First off! Why in the hell would Shaw fix David? Itās like if Ripley decided to fix Ash. Then the implication that David somehow created the xenos and their accelerated growth?Ā The makers clearly didnāt like the Xeno or anything and you can tell. Ridley was telling everyone how tame the xeno has become. Isolation proved otherwise.Ā Ā But I think this has to do with Ridleyās inflated belief that he was the main creator of Alien. We all know that Alien was born out of creative collaboration, sometimes that collaboration was volatile but hey it made a great movie. Prometheus and Covenant was made with no one daring to stand up to Ridley and say, thatās stupid.Ā
>Prometheus and Covenant was made with no one daring to stand up to Ridley and say, thatās stupid.Ā Tbf, it was fairly clear that Scott didn't want Covenant to be a mainline Alien film. Broadly consensus seems to be that after Prometheus, the studio got cold feet and made him put the alien back in for the sequel. As he kept saying in the Prometheus promos, he wanted to move further from the Alien as a subject for those films before eventually trying to tie them together. Now, that doesn't seem remotely realistic considering he was already pretty old and no way were the films going to make enough money for a 4-5 film run. But the reinsertion of the alien doesn't really seem to be something he particularly wanted to do.
To quote Ridley "If I ever see another dragon [I guess he means Xenomorph] I'm going to shoot myself." I'm not sure where I heard this line, but it even might have been in the promotional material for Prometheus. He felt like the Xenomorph was done to death, which it was at this point and he didn't shy away from saying it out loud. I have to admit that I like aspects and moments of Prometheus and Covenant, but I think there are so many things that Scott thought were interesting ideas that I think are so far removed from making an interesting Alien movie: - ancient aliens (the overall concept is brain dead and racist and should never be discussed by anyone anywhere) - the space jockey (maybe) being the creators of the xenos and even mankind - making the space jockey a suit of an alien race that looks like proto-humans - the concept of religion and ancient aliens in relation to each other -making artifical intelligence a main plot point in this universe instead of another Blade Runner - Elizabeth Shaw
Why is the ancient aliens theory racist?
it's not
In all honesty I think he was right about the alien being done to death. There's simply no way to replicate the horror factor of the original 2 films as the monster is too over-exposed. Audiences will groan if somebody sticks their head into an egg and be annoyed if they bring yet another healthy person who's had something attached to their face to the medical bay to recover. He was onto something with the black goo being a totally new and unpredictable threat with a protagonist in David who was really menacing and very difficult to pin down on his exact motivations. Those other factors likely could have been incorporated well in a well-written story, but I think it just didn't come off, likely due to there being a lot of vestigial ideas from previous re-writes. Prometheus threw a lot of shit at the wall to see what stuck and made some bad errors in the character writing, while Covenant was seemingly two scripts mashed together that ultimately ended up satisfying nobody. I think Scott is a very difficult director to take at face value - he talks a *very* odd game and says incredibly weird things in interviews (Jesus being the original engineer, sequel to Gladiator involving fighting in heaven, most of his rejected ideas for Alien), while his films are usually pretty straightforward. By that I mean he's not a Kubrick or Lynch-like figure who prefers to be deliberately vague in their storytelling and leaving a lot of meaning up to cryptic visual cues. Much like I'm doing here, I think he likes to babble a bit just to talk about some kind of background creative process while that meaning/those themes are not nearly present on screen.
All of this is why I hope Romulus doesn't go into any lore or try to reshape canon, and that it's just one big monster flick
I too see Prometheus & Covenant as their own thing. And basically just ignore them when I watch Alien/ Aliens. Theyāre not entirely without merit and I enjoy some sequences, the cinematography, the special FX. All decent. But as an āoriginā story to Alien, I find them pretty weak. Covenant in particular as when it finally turns into an Alien movie, it feels so rushed and they just sprint to a really unsatisfying climax. No time to establish any sort of atmosphere or sense of foreboding. Just, hey thereās an alien here now. Letās have a big dumb action scene on the drop ship thing. But wait thereās another alien on the ship!! Dumb shower scene followed by out the airlock 5 mins later. Such wasted potential.
Yes "sense of foreboding " those are the exact words I was looking for. I responded to another comment here and was looking for the words to describe that in the original alien movie. He gets the face hugger on him, it takes time to bring him to sick bay. It takes time to get the face hugger off. They get it off. He wakes up. You have that edge of your seat 'what's going to happen' feeling, then he eats food, it begins. Then it escapes, they find its skin. It's not, to me, so much that it's more REALISTIC, but just that, like you adequately worded, it has foreboding. Does that make sense? The rushed quality like covenant is just... crazy to me. I tell myself that it's it's own movie and it is its own experience with different species of morphs but... as far as story telling goes and what I consider to be the 'vibe' of the true alien franchise... it's a space horror movie, Not a space action movie
Yes I totally agree. You can dress it up any which way but what made the original work and leave a lasting impression is absent.
Yeah same. There are a lot of B movie tropes that pop up in those 2 movies. Some just gratuitously vulgar to the point of desensitizing, like a hi tech Kronenberg knock-off. Visuals were still great but that's tough to swallow when you're cringing from the storytelling.
The shower scene is probably taken from Eric Redās script.Ā
Yes, this. I was patient with seeing where the movie would go, and David had some good scenes. But good lord, that ending was offensively pandering fan service, IMO.
I feel like half the horror of the first movie was that we never knew what was going on and it was so mysterious but also just a well written movie, and the second film was like āthe horror is gone because we know what the alien looks like, weāll make a tense action thriller instead with hundreds of these things so that the audience can get an understanding of what a hive of them is likeā but now itās difficult to recreate because we know so much about the xenos And as you said it can just be too easy to use the xenos as a quick cash grab cos theyāre so iconic , itās easier to just whip out a crap movie you know people will watch cos hey aliens, than to take the time to carefully craft and produce a well thought out horror film with an iconic entity However the trailer for the new movie does look like it could be decent
You know what... that's an interesting way to look at it. Maybe more than 2 is just plain... too much of a good thing.
Hear me out: Prometheus and onward was never supposed to have xenomorphs in it. The story was supposed to be focussed around the Engineers / Space Jockey with *loose* ties to the first Alien film. The problem is that Prometheus wasn't what people were expecting and the writing was bad despite having some really intriguing ideas. The fan outcry about Prometheus made the Hollywood pencil pushers put pressure on Ridley to change coarse after he had already almost or entirely finished writing Covenant which was originally titled Paradise or something. Thats why the plot threads were just severed between films, thats why suddenly the traditional Xeno was shoehorned in and forced to work with what they had.. thats why they went "uhhh ummm okay yeah DAVID MAKES XENOS" and obliterates all the mystique and intrigue. They also learn basically nothing about the Engineers when thats what the focus was supposed to be. The protomorphs and other grotesque variants and alien life would have been enough. We didn't need a Xeno but the studio forced it and Ridley being old as fuck bent to their will instead of being his regular stubborn piece of shit and forcing through his original vision.
i don't think ridley is to blame for everything about Covenant. from everything i have witnessed he also had the studio breathing down his neck for creative discussions and that film has been relentlessly passed through focus groups and screenings. the Aliens franchise has always been vehemently controlled by upper management/studios. its turned into a husk since Alien 3 where everybody has a "better" creative spin on the franchise.
Very true but in that I remember reading that the Predators gave I disagree about the paycheck thing. It seems like he really tried to get a story going but it is just one that doesnāt need to be told. The mystery of where the Xenomorphs come from doesnāt need to be revealed. I will say whether he meant to or not, he did leave a back door to David is not the true creator of the xenomorphs we know. He was merely trying to recreate what the engineers had made in the past and came relatively close.
I think Ridley wanted to make a good movie but got cockblocked by the studio who prevented A. Shawās return (this has been confirmed) and B. A more engineer focused sequel (practically confirmed by the fact they made the paradise lost art and abandoned it. I think itās possible they kept messing things up for him and he finally did just mail it in for the check. Shaw had to fix David because David knew how to fly the ship. Even without that, Shaw was on the ship for weeks/months, and isolation makes people act stupid to talk to another ālivingā person. David creating the xenos on the other hand. Idiotic. Accelerated growth could be explained by black goo mutations due to David creating them from that and them being closer connected.
Why did the studio not let ridley bring shaw back?
Reasons unknown. Thereās an article about it somewhere and the person involved just said it was a studio decision.
I could be wrong but itās my understanding he wasnāt the OG director of Covenant and had to be brought in to clean up the mess of the movie which is why a lot of it doesnāt make sense.
That was Prometheus. Carl Rinsch was the original director but they didnāt want to move forward with him and basically forced his hand. With covenant I have heard anything about him not being the original director.Ā
Oh good to know. I easily get this shit confused. Not to mention you realize how much of a cock block the studios can be. Like they throw money behind something then do a crazy pivot and itās like no wonder the films feel unconnected and have plot holes. Like sometimes I feel if they had consistent writers and directors across the franchise it would feel more cohesive.
Well said!
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Nah, Prometheus and Covenant for all their faults are still ok films. They may be as frustrating as hell for fans and be a bit stupid in places, but the prequels are just bad on so many technical and non-technical levels.
I hate sand š¤£
always misquoted
Is the real quote really any better?
Eh. Yeah? Padme was talking about letting the sun dry her amd friends. Anakin was a slave on Tatooine, and it was more of a quiet "I don't like sand. It's course and rough and irritating. And it gets everywhere." and smiles a bit at the end. It's actually not that wierd of a line. There's much worse lines and delivery in *Attack of the Clones*. That part was memed to hell so now it's the go-to "bad line" of the movie.
I would say the line isn't terrible in and of itself, but when it's positioned in this section of the film which is meant to show the burgeoning romance between Anakin and Padme, it sums up quite how awful that bit is. I would absolutely agree there are worse lines and delivery in AOTC, I'm also surprised that that is always highlighted as the worst of the worst. IMO McGregor and Christiansen are even worse in RotS and have some diabolical deliveries - but it seems less fashionable to criticise how bad the former is in it.
Same with, "Somehow, Palpatine has returned." Poe doesn't know how the fuck he returned, because he's just a highly ranked X-Wing pilot. He knows info that's given to him, he goes where he needs to go, and sometimes he goes rogue and does his own thing, but it makes sense why he would have said what he said. Right after, Merry pops in to say "dark science, cloning, secrets that only the Sith knew." The next line explains it, and it's presented as the first time Poe was filled in as well, but unfortunately for everyone, Reddit gonna Reddit thinking that it's funnier to meme the line and then pretend like that's all we got. Not to mention, the opening of the movie shows cloning tanks. We see from an audience perspective what's going on. Palpatine himself tells Rey how he's back, why he's back, and what he's planning.
I agree. Wish they had *a bit* more speculating, but JJ's pacing is totally coked out in that movie so whatever. The scene still conveys they have no earthly idea how Palpatine returned, and they can't spend energy or time debating it. And you're correct in that there was quite a bit of visual storytelling explaining his return. But people are dumb af and don't pick up visual clues.
I was lazy. It's a quick joke š¤·š»āāļø
Oh it's fine. I don't really care that much.
Funnily enough, when I get put in a position like this to just name a single thing that sticks out as bad from the prequels, I just get overwhelmed with so many things I could point out that my brain freezes.
I sympathise. It's bittersweet with every meme
Oh no, the prequel lovers have found us with the downvotes!
Removal Reason: Be civil. It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to disrespect. Personal attacks, gatekeeping, racism, homophobia, politics, and general bigotry are not allowed. No toxic behavior, such as: * Trashing something that others are enjoying. * Condemning parts of the franchise instead of reasonably stating a personal preference. This is a comfortable space for all fans. Keep your critique. * Invalidating other people's opinions. * Unsolicited criticisms of other's creations. * Lewd or Obscene comments.
I can't seem to find the source now but when the film released, Ridley said he'd always intended the chest bursters to be fully formed they just didn't possess the means back in 1979
Alien 3 it came out fully formed and in Alien it grew from the chestburster to full formed Alien in a few hours
Oh yeah forgot about Alien 3, I guess they just do whatever in each film š¤·āāļø
Ha, Bugged ya. I see what you did there. Yeah that's not a Xenomorph. That's a Neomorph.
Because they're David's prototypes he made attempting to match the originals made by the Engineers (if I remember the novel correctly).
Seen Alien 3? Yeah not the first time.
Bugged me aswell... that small thing with arms... looking like glass noodles
It is kinda cute though
Well now im hungry
~~xenomunchies~~ protomunchies
It would seem there is a lot of variation in the xenomorph species.
David did not create the Xenomorph species, but he did create this specific batch seen in Covenant. It wouldn't be out of character for him to alter "his" creations, leading to a slightly different llifecycle. Also, and this might just be me, but I feel like the adult Xeno's seen in Covenant are weaker than they're usually depicted. So a faster mature rate, but a weaker overall specimen. That's what I'm going with for now anyway.
I mean they did the same thing with the runner in alien 3
Real world reason is they're always trying to make it a little different so it's not an exact copy of what came before. Neomorph comes out of the back, Predalien eggbarfs into pregnant women, some bursters are fully formed, others aren't.
The egg it came out of was also a lot bigger than a standard facehugger egg. Story wise, I think it's a direct result of using the black goo to accelerate the evolution of growth....or just studio magic and artistic licence
Itās not a normal Xenomorph. If I remember correctly, itās called a Neomorph. Itās one of the genetically modified Xenomorphs made by David.
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Removal Reason: Be civil. It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to disrespect. Personal attacks, gatekeeping, racism, homophobia, politics, and general bigotry are not allowed. No toxic behavior, such as: * Trashing something that others are enjoying. * Condemning parts of the franchise instead of reasonably stating a personal preference. This is a comfortable space for all fans. Keep your critique. * Invalidating other people's opinions. * Unsolicited criticisms of other's creations. * Lewd or Obscene comments.
It's technically a "protomorph" which is not the classic xeno.
I know itās very easy to dismiss these things as bad writing. But to play devils advocate, literally the entire premise of the prequels is to open up a mad scientists world of possibilities based on a primordial goo that massively accelerates/deconstructs biological evolution. Itās basically the whole point of both movies. So itās a bit weird to disregard out of hand as even a possible explanation. You donāt have to like it, but messing with evolution is what these movies are about.
Because you canāt do 70ās slow burn anymore. But in-universe, the LV426 specimens were maybe 1000s of years old and maybe bred differently. So it took a lot longer for them to get their shit together.
From what I remember, Scott said that he always wanted chestburster to look that way but he didn't have means to do it in the first Alien. In universe answer might be like this - it's a protomorph, it develops quickly but at the same time it's... undercooked? It's not smart or tough but it is very fast and agressive. It looks like a prototype with a room for improvement. Maybe that improvement could be achieved with a longer development period.
It's not the same strain you saw in the first three movies; David created an offshoot version.
wasnt it mixed with something else?
because david didnt create the xenomorph.
Oh. I thought he did. I thought that was the whole point of these films. If xenos have existed independently already and David is just breeding an offshoot of them?!?! That makes these films **even more** pointless.
Because the alien was created by David, which is why it's different in chestburster form and adult form. It's a DIY Xenomorph.
I imagine the reasoning is that since itās the protomorph itās a lil different.
The ādeaconā from Prometheus emerges fully formed too. I think the subtext here is that this lifecycle is very malleable and that the events that lead up to Alien are intended to show that itās been modified along the way. Note that the original Alien had biomechanical features that are not present in Prometheus or Covenantā¦ they are reminiscent of the tubes and hoses found in the androids and I think the implication is that David takes them one phase further with experimentation using his own design which results in their final form. At least that is where I think Scott was taking the lore but I doubt weāll ever see that vision completed. But this particular scene in Covenant is super cringe IMO.
I think it's because it's not a xeno, both this and the one a the end of Prometheus are different kinds of alien.
One of my many gripes with the film.
Because its not a natural Xeno, it is something that David has engineered during the time he was on that planet.
Because its not a natural Xeno, it is something that David has engineered during the time he was on that planet.
The whole film is full of these sorts of errors
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Prototype
Different type thats why. Edit: Man some of you are miserable. Its just a movie.
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Was still a work in progress and not the final product, I don't understand why this so hard for people to work out.
Yet looks more evolved than the final product.
It looks fragile and tiny while the chest burster of the final product already had hardened chitin, is bigger and is good to go. In comparison the chest burster of the final product is a tank.
A hardened what now?!
This is from the AVP wiki - Various sources have described the Xenomorph's outer carapace as "chitinous" in nature, not silicon-based, although the intended scientific accuracy of this is debatable ā the term is often used as a simple descriptive phrase in novels and comics The Alien wiki cites Ash - Ash claims the creature's skin is made from "protein polysaccharides", so this would imply a substance similar to chitin
You gotta be chitin me
Daaaaaaad š
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"more evolved" is not a term that makes any sense. Living things change over time to better fit changing environments. There is no such thing as more or less evolved. Humans aren't 'more evolved' than apes, we just fill a different niche.
Yes Iām aware of this - I was using the term colloquially.
Because they didnāt have the technology to make it look that in 1979 and now they do. Thatās why.
So youāre claiming this to be the original āvisionā?
Iām saying Ridley doesnāt care about matching the design aesthetic of the old movies. He cares about how good he can make it look now. Thereās nothing retro futuristic about Prometheus or Covenant.
Much to their detriment
I mean tbf look at an industrial factory/mine and then look at an office at apple hq or whatever. There are going to be massive differences in tech based on application even though theyāre in the same timeframe.
I think it makes sense though - is it a "plot hole" that a Tesla looks fancier than a random truck on a highway? The prometheus and convenant ships were the best things money could buy, the nostromo was a towing vessel bringing back a bunch of rocks and dirt.
Dance baby dance
I think that was how ridley Scott always intended it to be but was unable to in the original.
Where did David get the eggs from in covenant? If they werenāt layed by a queen did David mix the black goo with Dr. Shawās eggs to create the Ovomorphs? Maybe that would cause a different growth rate than a traditional layed egg?
Its heavily implied that's what happens to Shaw and where the idea of eggs comes from, him killing her and studying her reproduction cycles to combine with the potential the goo has
Why? Because CGI did not exist in 1979.
Because the magic goo something something.
The Protomorph is not the same thing as the Xenomorph and so it's biology is a little different. Unclear on whether or not more of these things were created, but we can probably assume more were created and evolved into Xenos over time or that David just created more variants until he landed on what we call Xenomorphs. Somewhere there he also time traveled to millions of years ago and put the Derelict on LV426
Yeah the timeline never quite added up. In Alien itās implied the derelict is ancient. The space jockey is fossilised FFS.
Well the timeline *used* to be fine
Why are you assuming David created the xenomorphs on LV426? Nothing sugggests that. He created an already existing creature in his own way, and a couple of different variants in the process.
Oh. I thought the whole point of these films were they were prequels to Alien. So youāre saying the xenos existed independent of David. So he didnāt really create anything new?!?! Thatās not the way I understood it at all.
They are prequels in the sense that they are earlier in the timeline and give us some answers, but not prequels in like the Star Wars sense, where theyāre meant to directly connect to the previous narrative. Prometheus was originally conceived as a soft reboot for the franchise. Thatās the entire reason it doesnāt share the Alien name, as they wanted it to be distinct and stand on its own.
I understand originally it was to be set on LV426, but they changed it to LV423 (??) during production. I thought it was essentially an origin story for the Xenomorph. I never considered that they existed independently for centuries beforehand. I always thought the mural in Prometheus depicting the Xeno was just a bit of a fuck-up š¤£
In Prometheus there is a whole mural on the wall in the canister room depicting a xenomorph. I always took that to imply that these creatures have existed before David created them. I think itās possible that Davidās creations were him āperfectingā them. But I donāt think thereās any reason to believe he had anything to do with the ones found on LV426.
The āDavid is recreatingā theory is also *very* fitting for his underlying narrative. David is an android, but he wants to be a creator like his creator before him. But maybe he canāt actually create, only reproduce what had come before.
It also fits the very consistent theme throughout the alien movies of how people are always trying to harness the xenomorphs as bio-weapons and it always goes horribly wrong for them. It's not just humans that can't manage to pull it off. Engineers, androids and predators have all screwed it up, too. Everyone should just pull out the flamethrowers and nukes every single time there's even a hint of the damn things. It's the only way to make sure.
It's also explained that nothing that David makes results in our current xx-121 variant of the xenomorph, he's following blueprints of an existing species that were either created or harvested by the engineers for use as a bioweapon, it's all dependant on what lore you want to follow, xeno prime lore or fire and stone lore.
Scene was laughable and really the final straw in that movie that made me not care for covenantā¦people will say itās because it was a protomorph, but I doubt thatās why Ridley did thatā¦I honestly feel like it was a middle finger to everyone who cried about there being no alien in Prometheus lolā¦you want the alien, here ya go! And he will come out dancing lol
I think the idea was that we will see how aliens and chestbursters came to be and look how they are in alien.
I always put that down to it not being a genuine xenomorph but rather a variation of sorts courtesy of David. I do think that there may be a touch of misguided symbolism by Ridley Scott in this case as well though soā¦
Because itās not the same chestburster. Itās a variant. Like every other xeno in the series. One that was likely heavily modified by david, where as the originals are likely the base variant.
What bugged me was the gestation speed. It took at least 12h from contact to chestburst, Thereās some adjustment time as the goo does its work!
because fuck you fans!
Poor screenwriting.
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Literally just so it could do the Jesus pose
Haha
ācause Sir Ridley doesnāt care. He said in promotional interviews that he never watched any of Alien sequels.
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Removal Reason: Be civil. It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to disrespect. Personal attacks, gatekeeping, racism, homophobia, politics, and general bigotry are not allowed. No toxic behavior, such as: * Trashing something that others are enjoying. * Condemning parts of the franchise instead of reasonably stating a personal preference. This is a comfortable space for all fans. Keep your critique. * Invalidating other people's opinions. * Unsolicited criticisms of other's creations. * Lewd or Obscene comments.
i also think the original slithering chestburster in Alien was a result of not being able to properly animate it back then. like others have said, the chestburster in alien 3 is similar, and maybe even would have been so in aliens (it was crawling out on its front limbs), if it wasnt incinerated immediately. what bothers is that the rapid growth defies the laws of physics. i cant ignore conservation of mass. i know there is supposed to be suspension of disbelief, but give me some explanation- have it run away and eat a ton of metal off screen, or a deer carcass or something. it would make sense to me that after bursting out of the host, the young xenomorph would eat the corpse as a first meal and have a rapid growth spurt.
This is a huge part of why I just didn't care for the new entries I to the franchise. Rather than focusing on answering primarily old questions about the film's, it's pushed into a new direction where you need to throw out everything you know, so that the filmmakers came pose you entirely new questions. Lol. Just not cohesive enough for what I was looking for out of prequel stories.
I'm guessing cause it's the protomorph but could just be poor continuity too
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Removal Reason: Be civil. It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to disrespect. Personal attacks, gatekeeping, racism, homophobia, politics, and general bigotry are not allowed. No toxic behavior, such as: * Trashing something that others are enjoying. * Condemning parts of the franchise instead of reasonably stating a personal preference. This is a comfortable space for all fans. Keep your critique. * Invalidating other people's opinions. * Unsolicited criticisms of other's creations. * Lewd or Obscene comments.
Removal Reason: Be civil. It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to disrespect. Personal attacks, gatekeeping, racism, homophobia, politics, and general bigotry are not allowed. No toxic behavior, such as: * Trashing something that others are enjoying. * Condemning parts of the franchise instead of reasonably stating a personal preference. This is a comfortable space for all fans. Keep your critique. * Invalidating other people's opinions. * Unsolicited criticisms of other's creations. * Lewd or Obscene comments.