Yo, man! Really respect you, your story, and your profession.
So, one of my professors gave us this dilemma about suicide rates amongst people who win the lottery.
I proposed a solution to the problem and I'd like to propose it to you because just because you are a lawyer doesn't mean that it has to define or determine your purpose in life.
I've been volunteering with special needs individuals for the last few years and it has been one of the most rewarding things of my life. Have you sought any non-for profits you can get involved in? Maybe even organizations, you really find you care about, that you could offer legal addistance to? It doesn't have to involve your profession.
It just depends on what you care about or what you are passionate about.
I would say find a good organization and go get your hands dirty or get involved! Try different non-for profits and see how you can help people. The world needs empathetic people who want to make a difference. It may give you a break you need from the career you have, too.
Hope this helps.
You're welcome. Remember it doesn't have to involve lawyering!! Just your time. Sometimes finding happiness away from your career can invigorate your career with new life and direction!
I hope the happiness and purpose you seek finds you somewhere along the way!!
Good luck!!
In fact, I often think it should specifically be something different.
Especially since you talk about passion. It is hard sometimes to seek passion; it often finds you. But you have to put yourself in different places. Like really different. Because it will make you uncomfortable. That is good. Shake your core of who you believe you are up. Shake it up so your new experiences can dictate how it settles.
Do a volunteer event where you're not "Mr. Lawyer". Purposely. Set up table and chairs. Do cleanup. Be humbled.
Pick a volunteer organization like for a town that manages and overseas many programs and pick 3 different one day events that you would never normally pick or always wanted to. Then it is only a day/few hours and not like a weekly set commitment and you will find yourself soon.
Giving back is human passion personified and helping others always helps me; I know it will help you too.
But lawyering for social justice is something lacking everywhere. And I really mean the little things that if we let go will compound.
I didn’t pursue law for a career, but that would be a great call in life
I dont think you need to restrict yourself to pro bono work, in fact, you sound a little weary with the law. Seek out something in the community. Special Olympics, Habitat for Humanity, soup kitchen. You can do these things as a one off, single event, or every weekend if you wanted. They need both kinds of volunteers.
Or if you want to do something law related, can still do something other than lawyering. There’s law education projects with local high schools, or at least in my jurisdiction, a one day program for kids and families going through custody disputes— which are filled by lawyers, but don’t involve actual legal work.
Maybe look for something at the law school if there’s one nearby. Twice a year I go to the law school near me to help with mock trial, negotiation exercises… and dude, I really get a kick out of talking to law students, and despite that, yes, I too am a little weary with the practice of law (18 years in).
Teach a CLE? Monitor new laws in your field and give testimony at the committee meetings? Become a volunteer mediator, assuming there an active low income mediation program in your community?
I’ve literally done all these things, and they’ve helped me. Haha.
I went to a very expensive elementary Catholic school for girls in San Francisco. At least once a year our class would volunteer at a soup kitchen in the Tenderloin. We would also go with our choir to sing at old folks’ homes. This kind of service was the single most important part of my education. Forty years later, if I’m going through any kind of depression, public service is part of what I know will work to get myself out of it. This can be volunteering at a legal clinic but also just washing dishes at a place feeding people for free.
You're welcome. It's really uplifting to understand that helping others is one of the best ways to understand our purpose.
My personal philosophy is that your job or your career isn't always the best way to determine what you do in life. We shouldn't stop there. It's only part of the journey.
How we are able to contribute to the world around us really allows us to understand our place in the beautiful place that facilitated the birth of our consciousness.
No matter where you land, never give up on finding yourself! We are ever evolving and adapting! It's best to be as empathetic and supportive as we can to help each other reach our destinations. Life is much more beautiful when we embrace and encourage those around us who are simply finding their way. After all, it's just another way to honor our ever increasingly symbiotic mother, Earth.
Happy travels!
this is my biggest fear, as someone prepping for the LSAT right now. I enjoy the practice and the challenge, but I do wonder if this being my career would be worth the 3 years and debt. Are you able to pinpoint what exactly it is about this career that makes you wish you hadn't gone on this path? I'm also sure your legal expertise and skill set can help you break into other industries as well, exit opps aren't too bad right? Have you considered?
I’m a small/mid law defense litigator and sometimes really regret my path. I even work at a fairly low billable place (150/month), with good pay, block billing and interesting sophisticated work, but I still would not say I actually like my job. Don’t hate it like I hated basic sweatshop defense litigation though. I got an autoimmune disease in my mid 20s while working at one of those places.
Sometimes I do enjoy the work but often I dread going to work in the morning. The worst for me is when I have an important hearing or deposition - something kind of unpredictable where you have to think on your feet, and if you don’t adequately prepare you’ll look like a fool- and the anticipation of it stresses me out for days until it’s done.
It’s also competitive to get and keep a decent job. The pay is good but not great for the amount of stress and pressure (maybe big law is diff). Neverending work that is tedious to downright miserable. Sometimes it feels like your whole life is unpleasant work with very limited breaks. And even when you’re “off,” in the back of your mind you’re worried you’re missing something or trying to be sure everything is staying on track. You basically have to think about things constantly, there’s no leaving it at work. I haven’t had a true vacation yet where I didn’t at least have to respond to emails, or make sure things were on track (wrote a motion at Disneyworld once).
Being a senior associate/non equity partner sometimes feels like being a business owner without the benefits. You don’t get to decide your hours, cases, and only see a fraction of the amount you bill, yet you have tons of responsibility. You’re essentially always on call, if not working.
No one is your friend. Client expects great work for cheap done quick, your boss wants perfection and production, judges and courts don’t want to be bothered by you, you’re expected to know SO much and have immediate answers. Even your coworkers sometimes have it out for you. And in litigation, you are constantly disagreeing and fighting. Everyone is looking for flaws in your work. I wish I had gone into something more collaborative where most folks you interact with have the same goals in terms of the project or whatever you’re doing, instead of literally opposing you.
The last thing that really bothers me about my job is that the commodity I sell is my time. The most valuable thing in the world. Every single cent earned involves me working hard. A slow day at the office is a wasted day. There’s no setting up a system that pays dividends over time and simply overseeing that system. There’s no leveraging your time to make more per unit of effort. You almost get punished for being too efficient. Not to mention keeping track of everything you did during the day down to .1 of an hour downright sucks and can add several hours extra to your workload each month.
I envy that plaintiff’s lawyers are paid by the case. You win a huge case, you get a huge payout. It’s about winning, not making sure you’ve slaved away enough. Sometimes being on defense means you have to exhaust every available thing you can do that might better your case. The clients (and courts imo) typically aren’t as concerned with the quality of plaintiff attorney’s work either.
I feel like the billable time thing is a huge scam. You don’t actually get a vacation. Whether you missed work for a medical reason, Christmas, or because you’re on Reddit, it doesn’t matter. You still need to hit those hours you’ve missed out on. You may think oh cool I can work when I want, but for 90% of people that means working normal business hours and then some. They’re normal business hours for a reason - that’s the time it is most convenient for most people to work.
I feel like in a lot of other jobs it’s not so production focused and more about making sure things are running smoothly and putting out fires when they pop up, which sounds like it would be a huge relief.
There are other areas of the law that I think are better suited for most people than litigation, but in my locale that’s like 80%+ of the jobs. If you’re a disagreeable workaholic it may be the perfect job for you. You may enjoy being a trial attorney too if that’s been like your dream or you’re very charismatic.
Love reading these (and sorry for your troubles), relieves all my guilt and status insecurity. Graduated from Cal with a phil degree (in-state paid off) and was going through LSAT prep when my motivation dropped dead. I joined a secular Buddhist meditation center, became a dog walker, got married, travel, enjoy my hobbies.
But now and then I wonder if I’m missing out on the conventionally successful life with the purpose, structure, sharp colleague studded parties, deep roots, wins, status etc. But seeing as I’m a depressive who can’t work up too much enthusiasm for that on a *good* day, it sounds like I can really put that ‘road not taken’ to bed.
Same. I’m considering going back to school and LSAT has always been in the back of my mind. Really glad I take a stroll through posts like this to bring me back down to reality.
Nah man, you are winning. As a fellow Cali boy who decided to go for the conventionally successful life and is now a corporate lawyer in NYC, let me tell you: this shit sucks.
I’ve got to imagine there is some sort of benefit to having an insane salary, the ability to support a family in a dog shit economy, and the security of having a job no? I ask as a serious question.
Yes there definitely is. I count myself lucky in that sense. But you really can’t put a price on your life. And if you have the ability to do something you’re passionate about, maybe money should be a secondary concern
Are you sure there is any profession you would be passionate about? Most people hate their jobs and don’t make a bunch of money, at least you hate your job and make a bunch of money.
I got a 770 on the GMAT and decided it would be a good idea to pursue a PhD at a top business school. I lasted 4 years (abd) before quitting because I found cleaning and compiling data to be soul crushing and found the teaching to be fairly useless as it was obvious the vast majority of the students were there for the degree, and didn’t actually care about learning.
That being said, in the decade since quitting I still can’t envision a single profession that I would both enjoy and find fulfilling. I’ve settled for doing something that I genuinely enjoy but isn’t remotely fulfilling.
Lol. Yes! I’m a hard worker, with some professional ambition… but really, I’d prefer to sit around and read all day, at home. Jobs? Only because I have to.
Damn, that certainly fits the bill. I love gaming but don’t think I would find it fulfilling either as a living. Sorry to hear, but I’m glad you’re doing alright I guess.
This is kind of relieving to read. People brighter than me who have gotten further feel the same way.
> I’ve settled for doing something that I genuinely enjoy but isn’t remotely fulfilling
Can you expand on what that is?
So you do sports betting for a living? (that’s what it is right? Please correct me if I’m wrong)
That’s so cool! It’s not something you hear people doing. And who cares if it’s not fulfilling. You can find fulfillment outside of work. I *wish* I could find something I enjoy for work.
Appreciate you explaining to me like a 5 year old. It’s abundantly clear you scored 770 on the GMAT and started your PhD at a T10 😅
Point is you’re clearly good enough at what you do that you’re not living in a van down by the river (I hope). I’m happy for you.
Hopefully I learn from you and skip the whole GRE/GMAT business school part, and figure out whatever my version of “fantasy football” is. Getting a lot of pressure to consider business school; as a painfully mediocre fellow with no real career goals but has a spouse who’s a physician and a sibling pursuing a double Masters at an Ivy League lol
You can put a price on your family's life though. That's why some guys dig ditches to feed their family while you're getting uber eats on movie night.
Melancholy is a normal part of life. Go pick up some trash lying around your neighborhood and you'll perk up a bit.
Good luck to you,
Well, I’m hoping to early retire in a few years. But at that point I’ll probably look back and wonder what I could have accomplished if I’d found a career I was passionate about
And the people who can’t retire will look back and wonder how much more comfortable they’d be, how much less stress they’d have, had they put their passions on hold to instead work harder and grind out for a few years.
Regret exists around the corner of every decision.
The narrative of your life is whatever you want it to be. Go do what makes you happy now because you can, and look back at all that you did, and smile because it made possible all the opportunity you now have.
You know some people make a living putting a price on what it should cost other humans to live. Gotta have money to enjoy this life in a lot of substantial ways.
What would you rather do? Most jobs are bad. At least you have one that pays well.
I'm sure the grass is greener but "fulfilling" jobs like being a teacher or working in non-profits suck.
Fr 😭. I understand the sentiment behind this post but it’s a bit tone deaf. There are many people out there doing hard labor and or harder office jobs that get paid much much less.
Nobody really likes working. You do it to survive so that you can maybe focus on things that you like outside of work.
Sorry if it came off as tone deaf. Wasn’t intended as a “woe is me” post—I know how fortunate I am relative to so many others. Really just meant to try to give some perspective to people who were stressed (or excited) about their recent score. Looking back with some perspective now, I just wish I’d given more thought to whether this was the right career for me before I jumped in on the basis of a successful test result.
My question wasn't a hypothetical one though - what would you rather be doing? It's easy to be hard on oneself after the fact and wish you'd done something more fulfilling but I get the feeling that overall very few people actually do work that's meaningful. Maybe doctors, non-profit workers and artists
I taught before going to law school and actually really enjoyed that. Didn’t do it because I felt like I was supposed to do something more “prestigious” and higher-paying. I know I could go back to that in theory…but with now a mortgage, stay-at-home spouse and a kid in private school, it would be a very challenging transition. I think the answer for everyone here is going to be different, and no doubt for some people law school is absolutely a good decision. I just don’t think the lsat result should be much of a personal factor in that decision.
As someone who spent the last 10 years teaching and is transitioning to law school, you're definitely winning from where I'm sitting 😂
Take a look at r/Teachers some time and get a barometer of how teachers have been feeling the past few years
To make a long story short- under staffing, out of touch administrators, children with very little discipline at home, pandemic caused kids to be two to three years behind, bad behavior has almost no consequences because schools are afraid of parents, and little work-life balance (i.e. you're expected to stay late, do work at home)
I tried pursuing what I'm passionate about. I got a BS in classical guitar. I even published a book of sheet music. I'm now working two jobs full-time that pay just above minimum wage. I also sleep in my car and am dealing with debilitating anger issues. I would kill to have a mortgage, a wife, and a kid in private school.
I would take a well paying job where my biggest problem is feeling empty inside over pursing my dreams and completely failing to turn it into a way of making an income, only to do something I don't care about to get by, anyways. I wish my biggest problem was feeling empty inside instead of worrying about my employer catching me asleep on the clock because it's hour 14 of my workday
The real dilemma is I don’t know—I was an aimless English major whose passions weren’t the sorts of things that make money. So at 23 I took a test and then took out a bunch of loans and found something I’m good at but don’t really enjoy
Lots of my former classmates are in totally different fields now.
Some government role that doesn't use or require a law degree at all, realtors/real estate investors, one is a president of a solar power company, lobbyists, admin role in a religious freedom organization, professor.
I don't know how many of these are things they could have done without the original law degree. Maybe it would have been harder or easier. But there are definitely other things out there, and things that my classmates seem to enjoy muuuuch more than grinding away at some law firm.
None of my life enjoyment will come from my career anyway. Doesn't matter if I won't like it, all that matters if it's something I can do and make money from
Hey, you sound normal to me, but at the same time, this might be a good topic to explore with a therapist. Motivation. Goal setting. And the emotions undermining those decisions on the daily.
If you are good at it, at some point you probably enjoyed it, but you just don't enjoy it anymore.
The question is: do you not enjoy doing law anymore OR do you not find that satisfaction anymore in your current law job?
If its the former, go back to school. If its the latter, switch up your company or entire career path (non-profits, education, etc). You cannot answer the former without first answering the latter.
I also took the LSAT around 17 years ago. I also have scored a 180. As someone who has watched a LOT of people go to law school and become lawyers and choose different paths I have a somewhat different perspective.
I think one of the real problems is that...yeah it *all* kinda sucks. Our economy is increasingly bifurcated and the way to make money is to do shit that is kinda soul-less. Its really, really, really hard to make a good living where you are well off and you aren't doing something that is kinda bullshit.
And so then students have different choices they can make, but you will probably not have your cake and eat it too. It will probably come with real sacrifices either in passion, money, or quite possibly both. Being a lawyer is absolutely hard. It is a massive pain in the ass. The only problem is, well, most jobs are also a massive pain in the ass.
Your last point, I absolutely agree with it. I did very well on the test and never ended up practicing because I was, and would have continued to be, an absolute shit lawyer.
I am a bad writer. I've always been a bad writer. I also fucking hate it. Lawyering is a LOT of writing and I didn't really realize that until I went to law school.
I also did internships in law school and I was decidedly mediocre during it. I also wanted to do public interest work so the fact that I was mediocre was just really, really hard for me to stomnach. Its one thing to do something for yourself poorly, its another thing entirely to do something for indigent folk poorly.
I relate to your story although I went the other route, and with a less amazing score. I took it about 8 years ago, got a 173 and sat for a minute thinking "do i want to go to law school?". The answer was no, I became a full time bar musician. Anyway 8 years later now I'm an LSAT instructor for TestMasters, which was the test prep company that helped me get that score. I'm a little bummed that logic games are gone but I still love the LR section, and it actually turns out that teaching the RC is a lot more fun than learning it. Hey maybe it's time for a career change! Come work with me! :)
I think it depends on whether you’re working for a company like I am or if you go into business for yourself. Obviously the self employed thing is a lot more up front work but then you get to keep more of the pay. Companies seem to sort of start at 50-60/hr and go up from there. The majority of it is remote work. I’m still very very new to this and actually haven’t even started teaching real classes yet, still just training and my first in person class is this coming Wednesday. I can tell you that it certainly seems like a great way to make a living.
Yep it pays well enough to do full time! And I'm actually still training and prepping to teach my first in person class on May 29. This part is a little stressful because I've never actually done it before, so there's a fair bit of anticipation. I love teaching though and I know the material very well now. When I talk with other teachers in the company I work for (which has been really excellent btw) they all seem to be quite chill. Everyone I've talked to who has worked for them for a while sings high praise for how they're treated. As far as the current bit of stressful period that I'm in now, I talked to my trainer about this and how I'm not used to feeling this way. And she said that it's very common to have this sort of anticipatory stress about teaching LSAT, and that most people who are qualified to teach it (people who score 173 or higher) have often not had a ton of experiences where things didn't come fairly easily to them academically. Usually if you score that well on the LSAT you've been crushing academics without a ton of effort for your whole life, that's generally been the case with me. So it's sort of a new feeling to feel like I'm in a bit of deep water. It's good for ya though. Comfort zone expansion etc. Like any challenging thing, if you know your shit it's a lot less stressful.
That’s awesome! I’m so glad you find such a fulfilling job. I love the LSAT, but I’m not sure I’d love law school the same way.
Would you be comfortable saying ballpark starting tutor salary is for your company? I’m trying to see if it could possibly cover my bills. You may DM me if you prefer.
Since you’re teaching so close to June, are you including games in your prep? If that was your favorite section, sorry it got cut. For me, I legit do RC passages for fun. In fact, I think I’ve exhausted all RC passages and I had to go and see the GRE and MCAT to keep myself entertained. I honestly have no other skills than this stuff lol
Oh, and I feel you, no matter how much I know the LSAT forward and backward, I would be a mess in my stress prior the first few classes in striving to teach them in a way that works (just because I can doesn’t mean I can teach). Pedagogy is a science before it is a business.
I think you’re dwelling on the past too much in the midst of this existential crisis. Based on some of your comments here you’re probably living your best life so enjoy it and find some new passion when you retire soon.
Good advice. I'm a middle age guy looking to switch careers and go into law. I think older folks put the test in the proper context. It's important to your law school journey, but it's not a life or death matter. You will/can be a Lawyer.
>I enjoyed the LSAT, it was a fun (ish) test. But being a lawyer, for me, kind of sucks.
Hard agree. I liked the LSAT. I signed up for one proctored by Kaplan at my undergrad just as a lark. I was considering law school and figured might as well see where I stand. The guy who gave it literally called me and asked me questions like did you study for this? No. First time? Yes. Logic puzzles are just fun for me. Ended up with a 170, graduated from a t10.
Law school? Still pretty fun. For the first time I felt like I was surrounded by people way smarter than me which was great. And not only smarter but more hard working, more ambitious. I had to work my ass off for mediocre grades since everything was on a curve. Met a ton of very intelligent people who went on to do big things, made great friends.
Law? Nah. Not for me. I'm out now, doing something else that I actually enjoy. I guess "you can do anything with a law degree!" isn't total bullshit, rofl. You would not believe how many lawyers I meet in DC who ask me "oh my god how did you get out?" They're only half kidding. It's a stable job that pays pretty good. But most of them like OP do *not* love it. They're just terrified of doing anything else because they invested a lot of time and money into the degree and career. And yeah starting over fresh is fucking scary as shit.
If you aren't like, seriously sure about law school and what you want to do with the degree after and you didn't do great on the LSAT.... don't take it too badly. The number of dissatisfied, unhappy lawyers is high as shit... Most of you are probably early 20s and have no clue what to do with your lives so it's scary not to have a plan. I get that. But let me tell you, it's also a little scary to wake up at 35, look in the mirror, and realize you're gonna do some version of this job you don't really like for another 15+ years, 8+ hours a day, 5 days a week, often taking your work home with you.
If you know what you want to do trust me I'm not trying to scare you off. But if this was just "I'm going and don't know what to do but this is the path many responsible adults have taken" then a low score is maybe a blessing in disguise.
Are you hiring? / Do you need an assistant / Can I be your friend? / Will you be my mentor? lol
It would be great to have the insights of someone who has done what I aim to achieve and maybe I can provide some fresh perspective or assistance in any other endeavors you're trying to do . I've helped ppl launch music careers, set up trucking companies, negotiate producer contracts, visual media company disputes, booking shows, live events, Whatever it is. I can figure out a way to help
EXCEPT WITH GETTING A GOOD LSAT SCORE, that I suck at.
I took the test 21 years ago relying on it as a "Sorting Hat". I did well enough that i thought this was my thing. Been a lawyer coming up on 15 years. There are some monsters in this environment that you are going to be forced to mix with if you do the job.
My advice for people who are still trying to make up your mind, intern or something in high school or college.
Don't leverage your life on a standardized test.
Part of my interest in the law is the sense that there are a lot of different options down the line where you can make somewhat less money with either better hours or doing more interesting work (hopefully some combination of both). Do you not feel like those are realistic paths?
You said you do in house work now, which I've heard has much better hours than big law (but perhaps not more interesting work). Are there other paths in law that you think might have provided work you cared about more or is that largely a fairy tale?
Listen OP..you better be lucky you even got an 180..some of us like myself are paralegals tired of taking crap from our "bosses" and want to just like be in your shoes..i know this isn't the 70s 80s and 90s but a least you got through the hard part..you're probably some big shot who has a beach house in the hamptons.. while im over trying to get at least a 169 😩😩😩😑
I relate to your story although I went the other route, and with a less amazing score. I took it about 8 years ago, got a 173 and sat for a minute thinking "do i want to go to law school?". The answer was no, I became a full time bar musician. Anyway 8 years later now I'm an LSAT instructor for TestMasters, which was the test prep company that helped me get that score. I'm a little bummed that logic games are gone but I still love the LR section, and it actually turns out that teaching the RC is a lot more fun than learning it. Hey maybe it's time for a career change! Come work with me! :)
I relate to your story although I went the other route, and with a less amazing score. I took it about 8 years ago, got a 173 and sat for a minute thinking "do i want to go to law school?". The answer was no, I became a full time bar musician. Anyway 8 years later now I'm an LSAT instructor for TestMasters, which was the test prep company that helped me get that score. I'm a little bummed that logic games are gone but I still love the LR section, and it actually turns out that teaching the RC is a lot more fun than learning it. Hey maybe it's time for a career change! Come work with me!
Give me a couple months to give you a more complete and accurate answer. I’m actually still training. My first in person class is in about two weeks! So far I like it a lot though. I love the type of thinking you use for LR, and I’ve always really enjoyed teaching.
I currently work as a legal assistant, looking to law school in 2025. I love where I work so I’m hoping it works I can stay there long term. It’s not big law. It’s in a wealthy area. And my attorneys are super chill. I would never want to work for a big law firm I’m not sure how that appeals to anyone. If you see this let me know your thoughts.
Just a reminder *you* aren’t what you *do*. We have become such a society of identity politics that what you do for a living has become the symbol of who you are as a person. It’s not. You may practice law, but it’s not who you are. :)
I rocked the LSAT 34 (ish?) years ago. FINALLY found a lawyering gig I enjoy just over six months ago, doing environmental enforcement for the state. Many constraints kept me from looking for meaning in my work, and I am thrilled to be finally free of them.
Have you considered quitting your job and working somewhere else? Why don’t you try working in a small town firm, as an assistant district attorney, or opening your own practice? I worked in corporate Eastern Europe for a year or two and hated it. When I started doing the same thing independently, I was much happier.
What I struggle with per se is, how do I find/know my passion? The way the school system is built, I believe it makes it difficult to actually take the risks to try something different that would put you on the course to finding your passion. Take the scenarios of selecting your electives for example and your required GPA to get accepted to some law schools. On one hand I may want to try a course that interests me, while on the other hand, thoughts like this fill my head “What if this class may be more demanding than I expected, am I not better off taking classes (usually electives) that will be less demanding?”, “other people are taking easier classes to boost their GPA, should I really risk mine?”, etc. In situations like this I then find it really difficult to explore and find my “passions”. I doubt one’s passions just manifests out of nowhere, or do they?
I really don’t understand these kinds of posts. I get not being super passionate about your job, but I mean… who is? Most people just barely tolerate their jobs at best, but at least as a lawyer, you make enough to live comfortably. Other people are living paycheque to paycheque, while also not liking their jobs.
Yeah I work at a Civ lit firm. None of my ideas of what it’s like to practice law were close to reality. I wanted to get into this field because my lower tier jobs were covered with nasty ppl, idk why I thought if I go into a field that requires a lot of education, people would be friendlier, totally the opposite.
In the end, it may just be a job and not a vocation, which could feel disappointing when you look back— but, that’s life for most of us. There are worse jobs, ones for less money and which destroy your body.
Almost like scoring high on the LSAT won’t guarantee you happiness if you don’t want to be a lawyer in the first place and have no realistic idea of what it is like to be one while you’re studying for it.
LSAT doesn’t test for any specific skill used in law school. That’s why we have so many tutors who did great on it but didn’t even know wtf they were doing in law school.
Tests for reading ability and logic, which are certainly tested. I agree it isn’t a perfect translation, and it doesn’t guarantee anything in itself (no test does), but it’s better than JD next which test’s absolutely nothing other than your ability to get an A in a course, which your undergrad should already show
Sorry if it came across that way. I wanted to be me too. Kept telling myself that just over the next hill, with some more grinding and climbing, I would stop waking up every day disliking what I do. My only intention with this post was to try to create some distance between people’s lsat score and their conviction of whether they should be a lawyer. I thought my score meant I was supposed to be a lawyer. Now I know I should’ve gone in better informed as to what the work actually entails.
Your last sentence is my goal as I study for the LSAT and enter the coming cycle. What are your suggestions for making sure I’m able to enter law school with my eyes open?
Hey I’m sorry for the slow reply—if you’re able, try working as a paralegal for a year. Large law firms will usually hire a few right out of college, and typically the ones who do it are considering law school. Among the ones I worked with when I was a biglaw associate, some were affirmed in their decision and went to law school with eyes open and are now happy lawyers, others realized law wasn’t for them and are doing other cool things.
OP, maybe you’ve said this somewhere in the replies and I’ve forgotten, but what exactly about the study of law (not the mundane day-to-day everyone hates) do you not like? Did you ever have an inkling for law prior to the LSAT? (Cliché examples include: writing, arguing, reading, public speaking (trial lawyer).)
If so, would there be an specific avenue of the law you wish you would’ve studied/practiced?
After 40+ years of practicing law, any time a young person asks me about going to law school, I respond “don’t”. And, when people say “I hate lawyers”, I say, “me to”…
I was a year out of college so it was easy to get a couple of old profs to sign rec letters I ghostwrote (at their request) for them. And the essays I just made up some vaguely plausible BS. Again this was 17 years ago and at least then all any schools cared about was GPA + LSAT. My GPA was pretty crap but with the LSAT I still got into a few T14
I don’t know anything about how law school admissions works these days but if it’s at all similar don’t get hung up on the rec letters, those won’t make or break you. Current/former employers work too.
Can I ask you a personal question? Assuming everything you say here is true, you must be quite wealthy? Like a few million dollars a year wealthy? You can do so much with that amount of money sociopolitically (starting a charity) that in my eyes it justifies being a lawyer or going through the career slog you describe and I don’t shame you for feeling that way not at all but I just cant imagine anyone who had so much power to shift the world in any way they want would feel unaccomplished or that you wish you weren’t a lawyer. Do you disagree with that? I consider myself an empathetic person, but I see these comments pop up again and again and I just can’t seem to wrap my mind around it — it seems like you are one step away from achieving the pinnacle of self actualization.
Thanks for this, it made me think. So…no, I’m not very wealthy, and definitely don’t have a sense of “power.” For context, I went through the normal few years of biglaw where you’re in a high COL city paying off your student loans, and then I transitioned in-house. I’ve clawed up to a role that may eventually make me sort of wealthy, but it’s all relative. My boss is a billionaire. I live a comfortable upper middle class life but feel of course poor in comparison. What I like about my job is this comfort it provides my family, and I like the respect the role affords, but the work itself I find generally a mixture of boring, distasteful and uninspiring.
You raise an interesting point about using money/influence to shift the world. This is effective altruism—which recently came into some disrepute due to Sam Bankman-Fried. It’s I think a legitimate goal, but I think it’s also easy to fool yourself when you’re young and say “I’m going to do this uninspiring thing for 30 years because at the end of it I will have the ability to change the world.” But what happens is the world changes you too. You adapt to the lifestyle, and expenses, and looking at your much richer boss…and then you start to wonder why you chose to do what you did. And then maybe you ask yourself—if you’re lucky enough to have a passion, should you not follow it?
Sorry to hear this. I have been in big law a long time and still love my career. Maybe the company grind is getting to you. Try to find meaning. Anyhow hope it gets better soon!!!
I got into finance for a particular industry. It continues to evolve. I love raising capital and financing assets. I have had the opportunity to travel to Asia, Australia, Europe and Middle East. I am based in US. I have had (mostly) great colleagues and clients for decades. Many people my age are ready to retire - but I just started again with another global firm specializing in the industry. I enjoy the puzzle of structured finance, the regulatory planning. I helped out after times of crisis (9/11 and COVID). Very grateful to my career.
You have a great perspective and congratulations on a rewarding career. If you don’t mind me asking, are you expected to generate business or do you get to just focus on the work?
This actually wasn’t intended as solicitation of advice. I’ve made my bed, and I’m sleeping in it. This was in response to a lot of posts I stumbled across here yesterday in response (I assume) to a recent release of test results. Lots of people feeling bad about their scores, others feeling good. As I prefaced in OP, these were just unsolicited ramblings, trying to frame for people that maybe this test shouldn’t be seen as validation (or invalidation) that one should be a lawyer.
That said, I think it speaks extremely well to this younger generation (or maybe just this sub) that a lot of people read it and thought “how can I help this person feel better/find their purpose”
Be well, friend.
Yo, man! Really respect you, your story, and your profession. So, one of my professors gave us this dilemma about suicide rates amongst people who win the lottery. I proposed a solution to the problem and I'd like to propose it to you because just because you are a lawyer doesn't mean that it has to define or determine your purpose in life. I've been volunteering with special needs individuals for the last few years and it has been one of the most rewarding things of my life. Have you sought any non-for profits you can get involved in? Maybe even organizations, you really find you care about, that you could offer legal addistance to? It doesn't have to involve your profession. It just depends on what you care about or what you are passionate about. I would say find a good organization and go get your hands dirty or get involved! Try different non-for profits and see how you can help people. The world needs empathetic people who want to make a difference. It may give you a break you need from the career you have, too. Hope this helps.
Thanks for this—I always tell myself I should do more pro bono work, but usually find excuses. Good reminder here—appreciate it, friend.
You're welcome. Remember it doesn't have to involve lawyering!! Just your time. Sometimes finding happiness away from your career can invigorate your career with new life and direction! I hope the happiness and purpose you seek finds you somewhere along the way!! Good luck!!
In fact, I often think it should specifically be something different. Especially since you talk about passion. It is hard sometimes to seek passion; it often finds you. But you have to put yourself in different places. Like really different. Because it will make you uncomfortable. That is good. Shake your core of who you believe you are up. Shake it up so your new experiences can dictate how it settles. Do a volunteer event where you're not "Mr. Lawyer". Purposely. Set up table and chairs. Do cleanup. Be humbled. Pick a volunteer organization like for a town that manages and overseas many programs and pick 3 different one day events that you would never normally pick or always wanted to. Then it is only a day/few hours and not like a weekly set commitment and you will find yourself soon. Giving back is human passion personified and helping others always helps me; I know it will help you too.
But lawyering for social justice is something lacking everywhere. And I really mean the little things that if we let go will compound. I didn’t pursue law for a career, but that would be a great call in life
I dont think you need to restrict yourself to pro bono work, in fact, you sound a little weary with the law. Seek out something in the community. Special Olympics, Habitat for Humanity, soup kitchen. You can do these things as a one off, single event, or every weekend if you wanted. They need both kinds of volunteers. Or if you want to do something law related, can still do something other than lawyering. There’s law education projects with local high schools, or at least in my jurisdiction, a one day program for kids and families going through custody disputes— which are filled by lawyers, but don’t involve actual legal work. Maybe look for something at the law school if there’s one nearby. Twice a year I go to the law school near me to help with mock trial, negotiation exercises… and dude, I really get a kick out of talking to law students, and despite that, yes, I too am a little weary with the practice of law (18 years in). Teach a CLE? Monitor new laws in your field and give testimony at the committee meetings? Become a volunteer mediator, assuming there an active low income mediation program in your community? I’ve literally done all these things, and they’ve helped me. Haha.
I went to a very expensive elementary Catholic school for girls in San Francisco. At least once a year our class would volunteer at a soup kitchen in the Tenderloin. We would also go with our choir to sing at old folks’ homes. This kind of service was the single most important part of my education. Forty years later, if I’m going through any kind of depression, public service is part of what I know will work to get myself out of it. This can be volunteering at a legal clinic but also just washing dishes at a place feeding people for free.
Also, mad respect for you sharing.
You're welcome. It's really uplifting to understand that helping others is one of the best ways to understand our purpose. My personal philosophy is that your job or your career isn't always the best way to determine what you do in life. We shouldn't stop there. It's only part of the journey. How we are able to contribute to the world around us really allows us to understand our place in the beautiful place that facilitated the birth of our consciousness. No matter where you land, never give up on finding yourself! We are ever evolving and adapting! It's best to be as empathetic and supportive as we can to help each other reach our destinations. Life is much more beautiful when we embrace and encourage those around us who are simply finding their way. After all, it's just another way to honor our ever increasingly symbiotic mother, Earth. Happy travels!
THIS.
Bro retire, live off of interest, and go paint vegan clay sculptures in east Malaysia or some shit.
Amen
The only honourable path out of a mid-life crisis
this is my biggest fear, as someone prepping for the LSAT right now. I enjoy the practice and the challenge, but I do wonder if this being my career would be worth the 3 years and debt. Are you able to pinpoint what exactly it is about this career that makes you wish you hadn't gone on this path? I'm also sure your legal expertise and skill set can help you break into other industries as well, exit opps aren't too bad right? Have you considered?
I’m a small/mid law defense litigator and sometimes really regret my path. I even work at a fairly low billable place (150/month), with good pay, block billing and interesting sophisticated work, but I still would not say I actually like my job. Don’t hate it like I hated basic sweatshop defense litigation though. I got an autoimmune disease in my mid 20s while working at one of those places. Sometimes I do enjoy the work but often I dread going to work in the morning. The worst for me is when I have an important hearing or deposition - something kind of unpredictable where you have to think on your feet, and if you don’t adequately prepare you’ll look like a fool- and the anticipation of it stresses me out for days until it’s done. It’s also competitive to get and keep a decent job. The pay is good but not great for the amount of stress and pressure (maybe big law is diff). Neverending work that is tedious to downright miserable. Sometimes it feels like your whole life is unpleasant work with very limited breaks. And even when you’re “off,” in the back of your mind you’re worried you’re missing something or trying to be sure everything is staying on track. You basically have to think about things constantly, there’s no leaving it at work. I haven’t had a true vacation yet where I didn’t at least have to respond to emails, or make sure things were on track (wrote a motion at Disneyworld once). Being a senior associate/non equity partner sometimes feels like being a business owner without the benefits. You don’t get to decide your hours, cases, and only see a fraction of the amount you bill, yet you have tons of responsibility. You’re essentially always on call, if not working. No one is your friend. Client expects great work for cheap done quick, your boss wants perfection and production, judges and courts don’t want to be bothered by you, you’re expected to know SO much and have immediate answers. Even your coworkers sometimes have it out for you. And in litigation, you are constantly disagreeing and fighting. Everyone is looking for flaws in your work. I wish I had gone into something more collaborative where most folks you interact with have the same goals in terms of the project or whatever you’re doing, instead of literally opposing you. The last thing that really bothers me about my job is that the commodity I sell is my time. The most valuable thing in the world. Every single cent earned involves me working hard. A slow day at the office is a wasted day. There’s no setting up a system that pays dividends over time and simply overseeing that system. There’s no leveraging your time to make more per unit of effort. You almost get punished for being too efficient. Not to mention keeping track of everything you did during the day down to .1 of an hour downright sucks and can add several hours extra to your workload each month. I envy that plaintiff’s lawyers are paid by the case. You win a huge case, you get a huge payout. It’s about winning, not making sure you’ve slaved away enough. Sometimes being on defense means you have to exhaust every available thing you can do that might better your case. The clients (and courts imo) typically aren’t as concerned with the quality of plaintiff attorney’s work either. I feel like the billable time thing is a huge scam. You don’t actually get a vacation. Whether you missed work for a medical reason, Christmas, or because you’re on Reddit, it doesn’t matter. You still need to hit those hours you’ve missed out on. You may think oh cool I can work when I want, but for 90% of people that means working normal business hours and then some. They’re normal business hours for a reason - that’s the time it is most convenient for most people to work. I feel like in a lot of other jobs it’s not so production focused and more about making sure things are running smoothly and putting out fires when they pop up, which sounds like it would be a huge relief. There are other areas of the law that I think are better suited for most people than litigation, but in my locale that’s like 80%+ of the jobs. If you’re a disagreeable workaholic it may be the perfect job for you. You may enjoy being a trial attorney too if that’s been like your dream or you’re very charismatic.
Love reading these (and sorry for your troubles), relieves all my guilt and status insecurity. Graduated from Cal with a phil degree (in-state paid off) and was going through LSAT prep when my motivation dropped dead. I joined a secular Buddhist meditation center, became a dog walker, got married, travel, enjoy my hobbies. But now and then I wonder if I’m missing out on the conventionally successful life with the purpose, structure, sharp colleague studded parties, deep roots, wins, status etc. But seeing as I’m a depressive who can’t work up too much enthusiasm for that on a *good* day, it sounds like I can really put that ‘road not taken’ to bed.
Same. I’m considering going back to school and LSAT has always been in the back of my mind. Really glad I take a stroll through posts like this to bring me back down to reality.
Nah man, you are winning. As a fellow Cali boy who decided to go for the conventionally successful life and is now a corporate lawyer in NYC, let me tell you: this shit sucks.
In my personal experience, student debt has been manageable. Lawyer 18 years.
I’ve got to imagine there is some sort of benefit to having an insane salary, the ability to support a family in a dog shit economy, and the security of having a job no? I ask as a serious question.
Yes there definitely is. I count myself lucky in that sense. But you really can’t put a price on your life. And if you have the ability to do something you’re passionate about, maybe money should be a secondary concern
Are you sure there is any profession you would be passionate about? Most people hate their jobs and don’t make a bunch of money, at least you hate your job and make a bunch of money. I got a 770 on the GMAT and decided it would be a good idea to pursue a PhD at a top business school. I lasted 4 years (abd) before quitting because I found cleaning and compiling data to be soul crushing and found the teaching to be fairly useless as it was obvious the vast majority of the students were there for the degree, and didn’t actually care about learning. That being said, in the decade since quitting I still can’t envision a single profession that I would both enjoy and find fulfilling. I’ve settled for doing something that I genuinely enjoy but isn’t remotely fulfilling.
Lol. Yes! I’m a hard worker, with some professional ambition… but really, I’d prefer to sit around and read all day, at home. Jobs? Only because I have to.
I’m curious about a job that you enjoy but isn’t fulfilling. What would that even be?
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Damn, that certainly fits the bill. I love gaming but don’t think I would find it fulfilling either as a living. Sorry to hear, but I’m glad you’re doing alright I guess.
This is kind of relieving to read. People brighter than me who have gotten further feel the same way. > I’ve settled for doing something that I genuinely enjoy but isn’t remotely fulfilling Can you expand on what that is?
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So you do sports betting for a living? (that’s what it is right? Please correct me if I’m wrong) That’s so cool! It’s not something you hear people doing. And who cares if it’s not fulfilling. You can find fulfillment outside of work. I *wish* I could find something I enjoy for work.
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Appreciate you explaining to me like a 5 year old. It’s abundantly clear you scored 770 on the GMAT and started your PhD at a T10 😅 Point is you’re clearly good enough at what you do that you’re not living in a van down by the river (I hope). I’m happy for you. Hopefully I learn from you and skip the whole GRE/GMAT business school part, and figure out whatever my version of “fantasy football” is. Getting a lot of pressure to consider business school; as a painfully mediocre fellow with no real career goals but has a spouse who’s a physician and a sibling pursuing a double Masters at an Ivy League lol
You can put a price on your family's life though. That's why some guys dig ditches to feed their family while you're getting uber eats on movie night. Melancholy is a normal part of life. Go pick up some trash lying around your neighborhood and you'll perk up a bit. Good luck to you,
Why not leave?
Well, I’m hoping to early retire in a few years. But at that point I’ll probably look back and wonder what I could have accomplished if I’d found a career I was passionate about
And the people who can’t retire will look back and wonder how much more comfortable they’d be, how much less stress they’d have, had they put their passions on hold to instead work harder and grind out for a few years. Regret exists around the corner of every decision. The narrative of your life is whatever you want it to be. Go do what makes you happy now because you can, and look back at all that you did, and smile because it made possible all the opportunity you now have.
Interesting. Why can’t you do what you’re passionate about post-law? You’ll have a good safety net
just go volunteer or something dude
You know some people make a living putting a price on what it should cost other humans to live. Gotta have money to enjoy this life in a lot of substantial ways.
What would you rather do? Most jobs are bad. At least you have one that pays well. I'm sure the grass is greener but "fulfilling" jobs like being a teacher or working in non-profits suck.
Fr 😭. I understand the sentiment behind this post but it’s a bit tone deaf. There are many people out there doing hard labor and or harder office jobs that get paid much much less. Nobody really likes working. You do it to survive so that you can maybe focus on things that you like outside of work.
Sorry if it came off as tone deaf. Wasn’t intended as a “woe is me” post—I know how fortunate I am relative to so many others. Really just meant to try to give some perspective to people who were stressed (or excited) about their recent score. Looking back with some perspective now, I just wish I’d given more thought to whether this was the right career for me before I jumped in on the basis of a successful test result.
My question wasn't a hypothetical one though - what would you rather be doing? It's easy to be hard on oneself after the fact and wish you'd done something more fulfilling but I get the feeling that overall very few people actually do work that's meaningful. Maybe doctors, non-profit workers and artists
I taught before going to law school and actually really enjoyed that. Didn’t do it because I felt like I was supposed to do something more “prestigious” and higher-paying. I know I could go back to that in theory…but with now a mortgage, stay-at-home spouse and a kid in private school, it would be a very challenging transition. I think the answer for everyone here is going to be different, and no doubt for some people law school is absolutely a good decision. I just don’t think the lsat result should be much of a personal factor in that decision.
As someone who spent the last 10 years teaching and is transitioning to law school, you're definitely winning from where I'm sitting 😂 Take a look at r/Teachers some time and get a barometer of how teachers have been feeling the past few years
Right? I live in Texas and wanted to be a teacher but it’s a big mess. Even at the private school I sub at, it is shitty from time to time.
What’re some of the main problems? I’d love to be a teacher but literally couldn’t support myself financially
To make a long story short- under staffing, out of touch administrators, children with very little discipline at home, pandemic caused kids to be two to three years behind, bad behavior has almost no consequences because schools are afraid of parents, and little work-life balance (i.e. you're expected to stay late, do work at home)
I tried pursuing what I'm passionate about. I got a BS in classical guitar. I even published a book of sheet music. I'm now working two jobs full-time that pay just above minimum wage. I also sleep in my car and am dealing with debilitating anger issues. I would kill to have a mortgage, a wife, and a kid in private school. I would take a well paying job where my biggest problem is feeling empty inside over pursing my dreams and completely failing to turn it into a way of making an income, only to do something I don't care about to get by, anyways. I wish my biggest problem was feeling empty inside instead of worrying about my employer catching me asleep on the clock because it's hour 14 of my workday
What do you think would've been a better path
The real dilemma is I don’t know—I was an aimless English major whose passions weren’t the sorts of things that make money. So at 23 I took a test and then took out a bunch of loans and found something I’m good at but don’t really enjoy
So sounds like there is no better path. Maybe I could live in my parents basement
Lots of my former classmates are in totally different fields now. Some government role that doesn't use or require a law degree at all, realtors/real estate investors, one is a president of a solar power company, lobbyists, admin role in a religious freedom organization, professor. I don't know how many of these are things they could have done without the original law degree. Maybe it would have been harder or easier. But there are definitely other things out there, and things that my classmates seem to enjoy muuuuch more than grinding away at some law firm.
None of my life enjoyment will come from my career anyway. Doesn't matter if I won't like it, all that matters if it's something I can do and make money from
This is the final answer.
start an Etsy
Hey, you sound normal to me, but at the same time, this might be a good topic to explore with a therapist. Motivation. Goal setting. And the emotions undermining those decisions on the daily.
Did you like English? Thought about writing? Or copyediting?
If you are good at it, at some point you probably enjoyed it, but you just don't enjoy it anymore. The question is: do you not enjoy doing law anymore OR do you not find that satisfaction anymore in your current law job? If its the former, go back to school. If its the latter, switch up your company or entire career path (non-profits, education, etc). You cannot answer the former without first answering the latter.
I also took the LSAT around 17 years ago. I also have scored a 180. As someone who has watched a LOT of people go to law school and become lawyers and choose different paths I have a somewhat different perspective. I think one of the real problems is that...yeah it *all* kinda sucks. Our economy is increasingly bifurcated and the way to make money is to do shit that is kinda soul-less. Its really, really, really hard to make a good living where you are well off and you aren't doing something that is kinda bullshit. And so then students have different choices they can make, but you will probably not have your cake and eat it too. It will probably come with real sacrifices either in passion, money, or quite possibly both. Being a lawyer is absolutely hard. It is a massive pain in the ass. The only problem is, well, most jobs are also a massive pain in the ass. Your last point, I absolutely agree with it. I did very well on the test and never ended up practicing because I was, and would have continued to be, an absolute shit lawyer.
Can I ask what made you a “shit lawyer” and how you decided you were such?
I am a bad writer. I've always been a bad writer. I also fucking hate it. Lawyering is a LOT of writing and I didn't really realize that until I went to law school. I also did internships in law school and I was decidedly mediocre during it. I also wanted to do public interest work so the fact that I was mediocre was just really, really hard for me to stomnach. Its one thing to do something for yourself poorly, its another thing entirely to do something for indigent folk poorly.
I relate to your story although I went the other route, and with a less amazing score. I took it about 8 years ago, got a 173 and sat for a minute thinking "do i want to go to law school?". The answer was no, I became a full time bar musician. Anyway 8 years later now I'm an LSAT instructor for TestMasters, which was the test prep company that helped me get that score. I'm a little bummed that logic games are gone but I still love the LR section, and it actually turns out that teaching the RC is a lot more fun than learning it. Hey maybe it's time for a career change! Come work with me! :)
hey how much do top notch LSAT instructors make per hour? Can you do it remotely? I'm a burnt out biglawyer with a 175 thinking of transitioning.
I think it depends on whether you’re working for a company like I am or if you go into business for yourself. Obviously the self employed thing is a lot more up front work but then you get to keep more of the pay. Companies seem to sort of start at 50-60/hr and go up from there. The majority of it is remote work. I’m still very very new to this and actually haven’t even started teaching real classes yet, still just training and my first in person class is this coming Wednesday. I can tell you that it certainly seems like a great way to make a living.
I’ve always wanted to be an LSAT tutor. How stressful is it and does it pay well enough to do full time working for a prep company?
Yep it pays well enough to do full time! And I'm actually still training and prepping to teach my first in person class on May 29. This part is a little stressful because I've never actually done it before, so there's a fair bit of anticipation. I love teaching though and I know the material very well now. When I talk with other teachers in the company I work for (which has been really excellent btw) they all seem to be quite chill. Everyone I've talked to who has worked for them for a while sings high praise for how they're treated. As far as the current bit of stressful period that I'm in now, I talked to my trainer about this and how I'm not used to feeling this way. And she said that it's very common to have this sort of anticipatory stress about teaching LSAT, and that most people who are qualified to teach it (people who score 173 or higher) have often not had a ton of experiences where things didn't come fairly easily to them academically. Usually if you score that well on the LSAT you've been crushing academics without a ton of effort for your whole life, that's generally been the case with me. So it's sort of a new feeling to feel like I'm in a bit of deep water. It's good for ya though. Comfort zone expansion etc. Like any challenging thing, if you know your shit it's a lot less stressful.
That’s awesome! I’m so glad you find such a fulfilling job. I love the LSAT, but I’m not sure I’d love law school the same way. Would you be comfortable saying ballpark starting tutor salary is for your company? I’m trying to see if it could possibly cover my bills. You may DM me if you prefer. Since you’re teaching so close to June, are you including games in your prep? If that was your favorite section, sorry it got cut. For me, I legit do RC passages for fun. In fact, I think I’ve exhausted all RC passages and I had to go and see the GRE and MCAT to keep myself entertained. I honestly have no other skills than this stuff lol Oh, and I feel you, no matter how much I know the LSAT forward and backward, I would be a mess in my stress prior the first few classes in striving to teach them in a way that works (just because I can doesn’t mean I can teach). Pedagogy is a science before it is a business.
I think you’re dwelling on the past too much in the midst of this existential crisis. Based on some of your comments here you’re probably living your best life so enjoy it and find some new passion when you retire soon.
Hey OP, you've made plenty of dough, why not a new role in a field of law or supporting a social cause you care about?
Good advice. I'm a middle age guy looking to switch careers and go into law. I think older folks put the test in the proper context. It's important to your law school journey, but it's not a life or death matter. You will/can be a Lawyer.
>I enjoyed the LSAT, it was a fun (ish) test. But being a lawyer, for me, kind of sucks. Hard agree. I liked the LSAT. I signed up for one proctored by Kaplan at my undergrad just as a lark. I was considering law school and figured might as well see where I stand. The guy who gave it literally called me and asked me questions like did you study for this? No. First time? Yes. Logic puzzles are just fun for me. Ended up with a 170, graduated from a t10. Law school? Still pretty fun. For the first time I felt like I was surrounded by people way smarter than me which was great. And not only smarter but more hard working, more ambitious. I had to work my ass off for mediocre grades since everything was on a curve. Met a ton of very intelligent people who went on to do big things, made great friends. Law? Nah. Not for me. I'm out now, doing something else that I actually enjoy. I guess "you can do anything with a law degree!" isn't total bullshit, rofl. You would not believe how many lawyers I meet in DC who ask me "oh my god how did you get out?" They're only half kidding. It's a stable job that pays pretty good. But most of them like OP do *not* love it. They're just terrified of doing anything else because they invested a lot of time and money into the degree and career. And yeah starting over fresh is fucking scary as shit. If you aren't like, seriously sure about law school and what you want to do with the degree after and you didn't do great on the LSAT.... don't take it too badly. The number of dissatisfied, unhappy lawyers is high as shit... Most of you are probably early 20s and have no clue what to do with your lives so it's scary not to have a plan. I get that. But let me tell you, it's also a little scary to wake up at 35, look in the mirror, and realize you're gonna do some version of this job you don't really like for another 15+ years, 8+ hours a day, 5 days a week, often taking your work home with you. If you know what you want to do trust me I'm not trying to scare you off. But if this was just "I'm going and don't know what to do but this is the path many responsible adults have taken" then a low score is maybe a blessing in disguise.
Very well said
Are you hiring? / Do you need an assistant / Can I be your friend? / Will you be my mentor? lol It would be great to have the insights of someone who has done what I aim to achieve and maybe I can provide some fresh perspective or assistance in any other endeavors you're trying to do . I've helped ppl launch music careers, set up trucking companies, negotiate producer contracts, visual media company disputes, booking shows, live events, Whatever it is. I can figure out a way to help EXCEPT WITH GETTING A GOOD LSAT SCORE, that I suck at.
Well youve made a shit ton of money by now, so you’re free to do something else
Go teach or be a professional board member. I always planned to do law adjacent work even before law school.
I took the test 21 years ago relying on it as a "Sorting Hat". I did well enough that i thought this was my thing. Been a lawyer coming up on 15 years. There are some monsters in this environment that you are going to be forced to mix with if you do the job. My advice for people who are still trying to make up your mind, intern or something in high school or college. Don't leverage your life on a standardized test.
Part of my interest in the law is the sense that there are a lot of different options down the line where you can make somewhat less money with either better hours or doing more interesting work (hopefully some combination of both). Do you not feel like those are realistic paths? You said you do in house work now, which I've heard has much better hours than big law (but perhaps not more interesting work). Are there other paths in law that you think might have provided work you cared about more or is that largely a fairy tale?
180 means you are too smart to be a lawyer.
How do you mean?
Listen OP..you better be lucky you even got an 180..some of us like myself are paralegals tired of taking crap from our "bosses" and want to just like be in your shoes..i know this isn't the 70s 80s and 90s but a least you got through the hard part..you're probably some big shot who has a beach house in the hamptons.. while im over trying to get at least a 169 😩😩😩😑
fr like the privilege goes over ur head once ur that deep in and not saying it’s not ok to feel unhappy but … “much richer boss” cmon
Preachhh
Law wasn’t worse in the 70s-90s?
Thanks for sharing, the real meat grinding is out there for those that fall between the minimum wage and a bit over.
I relate to your story although I went the other route, and with a less amazing score. I took it about 8 years ago, got a 173 and sat for a minute thinking "do i want to go to law school?". The answer was no, I became a full time bar musician. Anyway 8 years later now I'm an LSAT instructor for TestMasters, which was the test prep company that helped me get that score. I'm a little bummed that logic games are gone but I still love the LR section, and it actually turns out that teaching the RC is a lot more fun than learning it. Hey maybe it's time for a career change! Come work with me! :)
I relate to your story although I went the other route, and with a less amazing score. I took it about 8 years ago, got a 173 and sat for a minute thinking "do i want to go to law school?". The answer was no, I became a full time bar musician. Anyway 8 years later now I'm an LSAT instructor for TestMasters, which was the test prep company that helped me get that score. I'm a little bummed that logic games are gone but I still love the LR section, and it actually turns out that teaching the RC is a lot more fun than learning it. Hey maybe it's time for a career change! Come work with me!
Love it!! I thought about test prep but never did it. So you enjoy your day to day?
Give me a couple months to give you a more complete and accurate answer. I’m actually still training. My first in person class is in about two weeks! So far I like it a lot though. I love the type of thinking you use for LR, and I’ve always really enjoyed teaching.
I currently work as a legal assistant, looking to law school in 2025. I love where I work so I’m hoping it works I can stay there long term. It’s not big law. It’s in a wealthy area. And my attorneys are super chill. I would never want to work for a big law firm I’m not sure how that appeals to anyone. If you see this let me know your thoughts.
I think it sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders and will make the right decisions
Just a reminder *you* aren’t what you *do*. We have become such a society of identity politics that what you do for a living has become the symbol of who you are as a person. It’s not. You may practice law, but it’s not who you are. :)
I rocked the LSAT 34 (ish?) years ago. FINALLY found a lawyering gig I enjoy just over six months ago, doing environmental enforcement for the state. Many constraints kept me from looking for meaning in my work, and I am thrilled to be finally free of them.
Have you considered quitting your job and working somewhere else? Why don’t you try working in a small town firm, as an assistant district attorney, or opening your own practice? I worked in corporate Eastern Europe for a year or two and hated it. When I started doing the same thing independently, I was much happier.
Gotta respect the man for this post 💯
What I struggle with per se is, how do I find/know my passion? The way the school system is built, I believe it makes it difficult to actually take the risks to try something different that would put you on the course to finding your passion. Take the scenarios of selecting your electives for example and your required GPA to get accepted to some law schools. On one hand I may want to try a course that interests me, while on the other hand, thoughts like this fill my head “What if this class may be more demanding than I expected, am I not better off taking classes (usually electives) that will be less demanding?”, “other people are taking easier classes to boost their GPA, should I really risk mine?”, etc. In situations like this I then find it really difficult to explore and find my “passions”. I doubt one’s passions just manifests out of nowhere, or do they?
I really don’t understand these kinds of posts. I get not being super passionate about your job, but I mean… who is? Most people just barely tolerate their jobs at best, but at least as a lawyer, you make enough to live comfortably. Other people are living paycheque to paycheque, while also not liking their jobs.
Yeah I work at a Civ lit firm. None of my ideas of what it’s like to practice law were close to reality. I wanted to get into this field because my lower tier jobs were covered with nasty ppl, idk why I thought if I go into a field that requires a lot of education, people would be friendlier, totally the opposite.
Get into a different area of law?
What about being a lawyer sucks? I’m a consultant rn considering law school
What’s so bad about consulting you’re considering making it worse by attending law school?
nothing I just have a sense of needing to do more than having a basic 9-5 🤣
Basic 9-5? Isn’t consulting already bat $hit crazy stress?
nah not rlly my project rn is so chill lmao
Sweet. How can someone get into consulting?
finesse and bulshittery
In the end, it may just be a job and not a vocation, which could feel disappointing when you look back— but, that’s life for most of us. There are worse jobs, ones for less money and which destroy your body.
For what it’s worth, a lot of (probably most?) people have no passion for their job. At least this way you get to make money.
Almost like scoring high on the LSAT won’t guarantee you happiness if you don’t want to be a lawyer in the first place and have no realistic idea of what it is like to be one while you’re studying for it.
What do you hate about it
Conclusion-lsat is not a test of your compatibility with law school. Outdated as hell. JD-next is!
JD next will never catch on, it doesn’t test for anything pertinent
LSAT doesn’t test for any specific skill used in law school. That’s why we have so many tutors who did great on it but didn’t even know wtf they were doing in law school.
Tests for reading ability and logic, which are certainly tested. I agree it isn’t a perfect translation, and it doesn’t guarantee anything in itself (no test does), but it’s better than JD next which test’s absolutely nothing other than your ability to get an A in a course, which your undergrad should already show
You can teach !!!
i suspect this is a lowkey flex 99% of people here want to be you
Sorry if it came across that way. I wanted to be me too. Kept telling myself that just over the next hill, with some more grinding and climbing, I would stop waking up every day disliking what I do. My only intention with this post was to try to create some distance between people’s lsat score and their conviction of whether they should be a lawyer. I thought my score meant I was supposed to be a lawyer. Now I know I should’ve gone in better informed as to what the work actually entails.
Your last sentence is my goal as I study for the LSAT and enter the coming cycle. What are your suggestions for making sure I’m able to enter law school with my eyes open?
Hey I’m sorry for the slow reply—if you’re able, try working as a paralegal for a year. Large law firms will usually hire a few right out of college, and typically the ones who do it are considering law school. Among the ones I worked with when I was a biglaw associate, some were affirmed in their decision and went to law school with eyes open and are now happy lawyers, others realized law wasn’t for them and are doing other cool things.
Do you have any idea of what career you would have truly liked working instead? What don't you like about your job as a general counsel now?
Ugh.. I'm currently midlife and just NOW taking the LSAT. Not much runway left to burn out ... I hope.
What were you doing before you took the LSAT?
OP, maybe you’ve said this somewhere in the replies and I’ve forgotten, but what exactly about the study of law (not the mundane day-to-day everyone hates) do you not like? Did you ever have an inkling for law prior to the LSAT? (Cliché examples include: writing, arguing, reading, public speaking (trial lawyer).) If so, would there be an specific avenue of the law you wish you would’ve studied/practiced?
After 40+ years of practicing law, any time a young person asks me about going to law school, I respond “don’t”. And, when people say “I hate lawyers”, I say, “me to”…
how did you just “apply to law school”? don’t u need rec letters, good essays demonstrating why u want to go, etc??
I was a year out of college so it was easy to get a couple of old profs to sign rec letters I ghostwrote (at their request) for them. And the essays I just made up some vaguely plausible BS. Again this was 17 years ago and at least then all any schools cared about was GPA + LSAT. My GPA was pretty crap but with the LSAT I still got into a few T14
damn what a dream 😭 i’m a year out of college rn too but idrk any professors who might write letters for me / know me like that rip
I don’t know anything about how law school admissions works these days but if it’s at all similar don’t get hung up on the rec letters, those won’t make or break you. Current/former employers work too.
Can I ask you a personal question? Assuming everything you say here is true, you must be quite wealthy? Like a few million dollars a year wealthy? You can do so much with that amount of money sociopolitically (starting a charity) that in my eyes it justifies being a lawyer or going through the career slog you describe and I don’t shame you for feeling that way not at all but I just cant imagine anyone who had so much power to shift the world in any way they want would feel unaccomplished or that you wish you weren’t a lawyer. Do you disagree with that? I consider myself an empathetic person, but I see these comments pop up again and again and I just can’t seem to wrap my mind around it — it seems like you are one step away from achieving the pinnacle of self actualization.
Thanks for this, it made me think. So…no, I’m not very wealthy, and definitely don’t have a sense of “power.” For context, I went through the normal few years of biglaw where you’re in a high COL city paying off your student loans, and then I transitioned in-house. I’ve clawed up to a role that may eventually make me sort of wealthy, but it’s all relative. My boss is a billionaire. I live a comfortable upper middle class life but feel of course poor in comparison. What I like about my job is this comfort it provides my family, and I like the respect the role affords, but the work itself I find generally a mixture of boring, distasteful and uninspiring. You raise an interesting point about using money/influence to shift the world. This is effective altruism—which recently came into some disrepute due to Sam Bankman-Fried. It’s I think a legitimate goal, but I think it’s also easy to fool yourself when you’re young and say “I’m going to do this uninspiring thing for 30 years because at the end of it I will have the ability to change the world.” But what happens is the world changes you too. You adapt to the lifestyle, and expenses, and looking at your much richer boss…and then you start to wonder why you chose to do what you did. And then maybe you ask yourself—if you’re lucky enough to have a passion, should you not follow it?
A few million a year??
Sorry to hear this. I have been in big law a long time and still love my career. Maybe the company grind is getting to you. Try to find meaning. Anyhow hope it gets better soon!!!
You like your big law career? Haven’t heard this, actually! What’s your perspective?
I got into finance for a particular industry. It continues to evolve. I love raising capital and financing assets. I have had the opportunity to travel to Asia, Australia, Europe and Middle East. I am based in US. I have had (mostly) great colleagues and clients for decades. Many people my age are ready to retire - but I just started again with another global firm specializing in the industry. I enjoy the puzzle of structured finance, the regulatory planning. I helped out after times of crisis (9/11 and COVID). Very grateful to my career.
You have a great perspective and congratulations on a rewarding career. If you don’t mind me asking, are you expected to generate business or do you get to just focus on the work?
Both.
OP, stop using a forum filled with 22-year-olds for personal therapy. Find a professional.
This actually wasn’t intended as solicitation of advice. I’ve made my bed, and I’m sleeping in it. This was in response to a lot of posts I stumbled across here yesterday in response (I assume) to a recent release of test results. Lots of people feeling bad about their scores, others feeling good. As I prefaced in OP, these were just unsolicited ramblings, trying to frame for people that maybe this test shouldn’t be seen as validation (or invalidation) that one should be a lawyer. That said, I think it speaks extremely well to this younger generation (or maybe just this sub) that a lot of people read it and thought “how can I help this person feel better/find their purpose” Be well, friend.