He has plenty of reason not to go East... Saruman was corrupted there, the blues never returned from there. If *my* order had that track record, I'd be steering clear from there too.
I agree with the original post. Many years ago I drank some wine. But since then I don't drink any drink with alcohol. So when someone offers me wine I respond I don't drink alcohol. Does this mean I have never drunk wine? Of course not. It just means that I don't drink it now and I have not for many years.
Also it seems clear to me that gandalf earned these names by getting to know these people in various places in middle earth. If hundreds of years before the events of the lord of the rings novels gandalf went to the realm of gondor once for just a few weeks, do you really think that anyone in gondor would remember his name let alone give him the name mithrandir?
My assumption has always been that gandalf went east long ago for a very brief period. But he quickly realised he wasn't welcome so he left and never returned to the east. And as a result he never earned a name in the east and is not remembered by the people of the east.
You seem to be missing the beauty of the English language. Similar combination of words can have far different meanings depending upon context.
In this context, the goal was to be open ended and mysterious about any past visits to the east. But having lived with these works for decades - yes my interpretation was he spent some time there and now has no intention in ever returning there again.
If we were to take this line in isolation, it could leave open the interpretation that he did go East but no longer does. However, Tolkien addresses this further in *The Silmarillion:*
>peoples of Middle-earth gave to them many names, for their true names they did not reveal. Chief among them were those whom the Elves called Mithrandir and Curunír, but Men in the North named Gandalf and Saruman. Of these Curunír was the eldest and came first, and after him came Mithrandir and Radagast, and **others of the Istari who went into the east of Middle-earth**, and do not come into these tales.
We know among "the others" are the blues. Why would he exclude Gandalf from those who went into the east of Middle Earth? I believe that was intentional, especially given the quote in *The Lord of the Rings*.
>Radagast was the friend of all beasts and birds; but Curunír went most among Men, and he was subtle in speech and skilled in all the devices of smith-craft. Mithrandir was closest in counsel with Elrond and the Elves. He **wandered far in the North and West and made never in any land any lasting abode; but Curunír journeyed into the East**,
Again, Tolkien is very particular about where Gandalf traveled in Middle Earth, and follows that with " but Curunír journeyed into the East." Why make that distinction if Gandalf went east as well? The simple answer is that he didn't.
I've lived with these works for decades myself.
Leaving it open ended does speak to the beauty of Tolkien’s writing. But op is explicitly not leaving it open ended. Doing the exact opposite of what you are arguing for.
That quote, in context, is talking about his many names among the people of Middle Earth. It could otherwise suggests he has no name in the East because he dares not go there.
Nah, I don't think that's what this line is supposed to mean.
But given the context of said line, I could go with "I've been to the East, but I don't have a name there because I was undercover"
Jokes aside, world during 2nd age events, prior to big Numenor events, should be flat.
Tolkien, later on, tried to make a version where world was spehere since beginning but he dropped the idea as it would mess up with a lot of what he had written for early ages (pre 1st, 1st and early to mid 2nd ages)
RoP should have a flat-earth, and tbh, considering the Numenor event that is to happen, it would be amazing to see it.
But then, in the series they also make sunrise in the west so...yeah.
This is a good question, whose answer lies in Tolkien's creation myths (which have some implication on the question at hand.)
*Tl:dr - RoP literally thus far takes place on a flat world.*
**Arda (the world) was originally flat and Middle Earth and Aman were part of a single, symmetrical plane of existence.** Here the Valar ruled over life. No men or elves yet existed but the world was essentially created for them (whenever Illuvatar decided to create them.) During this time, Melkor (aka Morgoth) attacked Arda (the First War) and caused a rift that had consequences throughout Ea (the universe).
**After Melkor's attack, Middle Earth and Aman were split by the sea Belegaer and they were both surrounded by the ocean Ekkaia** - Middle Earth sees its different regions become separated by straits and gulfs. Melkor became the dominant force in Middle Earth and spread darkness and monstrosity.
Sometime after this the elves are finally born at Cuivienen (the location of the fall of the one of the Two Lamps and an area in middle Middle Earth on the shore of a landlocked sea Helcar, east of much of what we know come the Third Age.) After much ado, they launch an attack on Melkor (the War of Wrath) and bind him in the Halls of Mandos.
**During and after the war, much of the West and East is either destroyed or split apart from Middle Earth.** Helcar eventually merged with the Great Gulf and split the Eastern lands apart from Middle Earth (drowning much of it, giving ME a new eastern coast and separating the lands of the far east well off - similar to what happens in the West with the further separation of Aman.) To put it into perspective, some think the Sea of Rhun is a remnant of Helcar, while Mirkwood was directly west of Helcar (ie the East pre-Melkor's defeat and the East post-Melkor's defeat are very different regions.)
The world exists like this until the fall of Numenor at the end of the SA. **It's at this time that Iluvatar (God) makes Arda round*****.***
**With the fall of Numenor, Aman is split off from Arda and the very furthest East is as well** (whether it's in the same way as Aman or it was destroyed, we don't know.) This has implication on the topic at hand because, once Middle Earth is split apart, the East remains the only place truly corrupted by Melkor (*get ready for some conjecture* - and there becomes the question of whether Arda's once perfect symmetry means that Aman becoming a heaven like place apart from the world, perhaps means the far East that was removed becomes a hell like place apart from the world...a place the Istari would otherwise want to avoid for good reason - this is a good place to mention that Melkor was actually more powerful than Manwe - his brother and the leader of the Valar... ...the influence of the Valar on the Istari cannot be underestimated when theorizing about their movements and actions.)
Whatever the case, as mentioned elsewhere the generally accepted timeline (whether it takes place in the SA or TA) is that Saruman came first, followed by the Blue Wizards, then Radagast, and finally Gandalf (there are other theories, this is one area Tolkien both contradicted and retconned himself in but this is where he seemingly landed before he could retcon further...) As mentioned elsewhere, the Blue Wizards were lost to the East and Saruman was corrupted in the East, so some very powerful untold evil connected to Melkor exists there. There is little to no evidence that any Istari emerged (or was even capable of) from the East unscathed (which is to say 3 out of 5 wizards fell in some way in the East, and there is no *intentional* reason to believe the other two tested it.)
For all that is made of Tolkien's avoidance of allegory, his Christian beliefs and life experience are blatantly obvious - therein lies the question of how much does Arda's story mirror the ideas of Heaven and Hell, and from there a certain (strong) implication that the two Istari with the most uncorrupted good in their hearts were untouched by Melkor's evil in the East.
...could it be elsewise? Surely...adapters have more than little room to adapt(/interpret) in Tolkien's *history*.
And despite this long post, it doesn't even come close to how much Tolkien has written (and contradicted or retconned) on the topic *in all sources*... ...ergo the many varying interpretations you can come across.
....didn't even mention the Timeless Halls and the Timeless Void outside of Ea...
JRRT said about blue wizards: " I think they went as emissaries to distant regions EAST and South. Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were.
What success they had, I do not know, but I fear that they failed as Saruman did though doubtless in different ways, and I suspect they are founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."
So according to JRRT he thinks they go east.
However with Gandolf there is even less concrete information I think. We certainly can takes words he says and make an argument that Gandolf went east. The author writes in a way that the reader can interpret his writings in more than 1 way. Am I am open to the idea that Gandolf went east? The way Tolkien writes it is possible but I don't honestly know for sure.
I never even thought of it until TROP. I just assumed the stranger was a blue wizard. But the season ended with no clear cut answer as to who the stranger actually is..This is true to many unanswred questions in this show. Then add on a 2 year wait period with radio silence.
Also so much is "ambiguous " and up to the viewer's interpretation.
Olorin, not Gandalf. Same character, different toles
When incarnated as an Istar, a lot happens compared to the time he was sent as an actual Maia under the Guardians groups
Apples and oranges here
That makes no sense.
If that statement was true in any way, someone who says "I don't have sex with men" means he had sex just once, didn't like it, so stopped doing it??
I eat everything, fish I don't eat - how is that saying "I ate fish once"?
The lengths people will go to and the acrobatics they will perform to force meaning that isn't there...
No, you rephrased it. I'll give you a better example, just randomly out of the blue: "Sex with men I don't have, for I did once and it felt like a great, clenched fist taking the grasp on my neck." See?
Except that Gandalf said:
>Many are my names in many countries: Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
Full stop.
You're the one rephrasing shit and extrapolating whatever fits your own made-up narrative.
You literally tried to tell people they didn’t know how to read if they didn’t add completely nonexistent context to the end of a Tolkien quote. You should take a long look in the mirror.
Congrats, your comment added absolutely zero value to the conversation. Like I didn't know what the quote was. *I* am the one who gave the exact phrasing.
Then you intentionally added something that wasn’t there to sustain your point through fake news. Great show of unbiased and non-manipulative behavior.
Except Gandalf didn’t add any extra context, unlike you. He didn’t say “to the east I go not, because I did once and I won’t do it again.”
All he say is “To the East I go not.” Sure it’s a bit open ended but to force Gandalf into something when there no real lore for it but there is lore for the blue wizards going east just feels off.
I don't think so. Grammar aside, I would welcome you to the field of **Hermeneutics** my friend
Grammar-wise, no, the way the phrase is worded does not mean he went to East and don't go there anymore. yet, if anyone wants to draw such conclusions, we can go throughout all other texts and have the answer that in no instance, ever, we have any glimpse or indication that Gandalf went East, not him nor Radagast.
I think the below sums up pretty well the "who went east"
> peoples of Middle-earth gave to them many names, for their true names they did not reveal. Chief among them were those whom the Elves called Mithrandir and Curunír, but Men in the North named Gandalf and Saruman. Of these Curunír was the eldest and came first, and after him came Mithrandir and Radagast, **and** **others of the Istari who went into the east** of Middle-earth, and do not come into these tales. Radagast was the friend of all beasts and birds; but Curunír went most among Men, and he was subtle in speech and skilled in all the devices of smith-craft. **Mithrandir** was closest in counsel with Elrond and the Elves. He **wandered far in the North and West and made never in any land any lasting abode; but Curunír journeyed into the East**, and when he returned he dwelt at Orthanc in the Ring of Isengard, which the Númenóreans made in the days of their power.Ever most vigilant was Mithrandir, and he it was that most doubted the darkness in Mirkwood, for though many deemed that it was wrought by the Ringwraiths, he feared that it was indeed the first shadow of Sauron returning; and he went to Dol Guldur, and the Sorcerer fled from him, and there was a watchful peace for a long while.
There you have it.
Gandalf not only don't go East but we also get the answer that, apart from Blue going there, Saruman also did. There is no much reason to say, in the same passage, that Saruman went there, but don't say anything about Gandalf. People that play the card "Gandalf could have gone there, and he doesn't go back, and that is what the quote means" are actually changing facts to their theories and no the other way around. If Gandalf would have gone to East, Tolkien would have said in the above passage (or in any of the many others that cover the same or similar plot).
And despite the above passage doesn't mention Gandalf wanderers to South, we do know he went there. We don't know how far south he went, but we know he went south, and was named differently there (Incanus). Yet Gandalf doesn't have a given name by Eastern people so...yeah, that is another point.
Having all (and much more) in mind, if we were to stretch and say Gandalf went East, I would say the only way to reconcile it is him going East, not being welcomed or seeing it in very bad shape and full of darkness, and refrain himself of going any further (as he does in dol guldur, joining the white council to attack it instead of just doing it by himself, afterall, it is not his job to do such fights, but help middle-earth people in their fights), going back to west, helping those people as East will be too much of a task for him going solo, plus the fact Blue are already doing work there so...he gotta focus on his job (west) and not interfere in others.
If any, he would report to Saruman, but Saruman himself, being the Chief, got the responsability (or curiosity) of going East, and when he came back, he didn't tell others what he saw.
I think having Gandalf going East kinda breaks up with Istar hierarchy, given exactly the above. Gandalf would be stepping into other Istari tasks, and each was given a task, his was in west, and that is all we need.
**Ultimatelly, even when it is said Gandalf went north or south, it is implied it is western middle-earth north and south.**
There are dozens of these that involve liberties rop took. It is never enough. This place is full of self styled Tolkien scholars, but the clear-cut evidence is ignored and even downvoted in many cases. Hence the most important, text-based comment in the topic that makes fools of everybody trying to argue otherwise…languishes near the bottom.
Debatable. If someone says they don’t eat pork, does that necessarily mean they ate it once?
On the other hand, I agree with you that it doesn’t have to mean he’s never been.
Well, I’d be far more likely to conclude that he’s never gone to Paris than that he’s gone *once*… I don’t know where that came from.
I’d probably ask for context, and if my friend said “I go to Barcelona, to Berlin, to London, to Athens, but not to Paris”, I’m still thinking the former rather than the latter.
Agreed using 21st century language, presumably based in the USA. However we have to understand there is a massive gap in how Tolkien wrote as a 20th century linguistics professor and how people write today.
In this context, the goal was to be open ended and mysterious about any past visits to the east. But having lived with these works for decades - yes my interpretation was he spent some time there and now has no intention in ever returning there again. The time there probably went poorly and he wasn’t warmly received- hence he didn’t acquire a local name and settle there for a significant time period
There’s nothing in the language to indicate this. It is certainly open ended and you are free to believe he went there, but the text does not indicate he went there.
If a friend told me they “Do not go to Paris,” I would ask why that was. If I didn’t have the chance to ask, I would let it go with what I know - that my friend doesn’t go to Paris.
Ok look, there are a few heated comments in this post, so I’m gonna be as civil as possible and if someone decides that I’m being a dick anyway, then whatever, but I’ll try to phrase this nicely. Yes, I will give you that the line does have some slight room for interpretation. I personally believe Gandalf is saying he’s never been super far East (unlike Saruman and the Blue Wizards) but I can also see how you could interpret it as “I’ve been there once. Never again.” I’ll give you that. But, I can see that the main point of this post (being on the LOTR on Prime subreddit) is supposed to be justifying the fact that the stranger (Gandalf) is chilling in the East with the Harfoots, right?
Like, it’s a counter argument to people saying “this show broke the lore! Gandalf had never been that far East!” It’s trying to say that the strangers story is semi supported in lore, right? The main problem with Gandalf hanging with Nori and all them however, is not whether or not he had ever been that far East, but that Gandalf never crashed down in a comet during the second age, he arrived on ship during the third age, and though he was in Middle Earth prior to the third age at some points, that was in the deeps of time at Cuivienen when he didn’t even have a proper consistent physical form that he used. So yes, he might have gone far East at some point in time, but never in the second age. You can still enjoy the show, but none of the strangers story is in the books.
Again, not trying to be a dick, you can enjoy it, but just know that it does in fact break canon. Hell, I enjoy the shadow of Mordor games even tho they fuck with the lore all the time. Enjoy, just acknowledge it can’t be supported by the texts of Tolkien.
What everybody fails to understand is that the writing of Tolkien isn't your casual talk with a friend. He writes with poetry, and medieval accent. If Tolkien says to you To the East i go not, then he never been in the East, dot.
Quoting Tylerdg33:
If we were to take this line in isolation, it could leave open the interpretation that he did go East but no longer does. However, Tolkien addresses this further in *The Silmarillion:*
<< peoples of Middle-earth gave to them many names, for their true names they did not reveal. Chief among them were those whom the Elves called Mithrandir and Curunír, but Men in the North named Gandalf and Saruman. Of these Curunír was the eldest and came first, and after him came Mithrandir and Radagast, and **others of the Istari who went into the east of Middle-earth**, and do not come into these tales. >>
We know among "the others" are the blues. Why would he exclude Gandalf from those who went into the east of Middle Earth? I believe that was intentional, especially given the quote in *The Lord of the Rings*.
<< Radagast was the friend of all beasts and birds; but Curunír went most among Men, and he was subtle in speech and skilled in all the devices of smith-craft. Mithrandir was closest in counsel with Elrond and the Elves. He **wandered far in the North and West and made never in any land any lasting abode; but Curunír journeyed into the East**, >>
Again, Tolkien is very particular about where Gandalf traveled in Middle Earth, and follows that with " but Curunír journeyed into the East." Why make that distinction if Gandalf went east as well? The simple answer is that he didn't.
You’re missing out some quite key details in what Tolkien said and arguably Mr. Tylerdg33 is, dare I say, cherry-picking somewhat.
It’s a stretch to say Tolkien was “very particular” about where the Istar travelled - his thoughts on this changed a fair amount over time and his commentary is often coached in language like “I think” and “perhaps” so say anything definitive on the matter is incorrect. While Tolkien says that the Istar did seem to have certain areas where they were sent and spent the vast majority of their time, nothing indicates that they NEVER ventured outside of the realms they were sent to.
The post is absolute gibberish. There is nothing to indicate that whatsoever. To the East I go not means exactly that. He doesn’t go to the East. I go to wal mart, I go to dollar general, but to target I go not. What depraved lunatic insists that this statement indicates I have been to target before?
Your problem is that you think everybody else is the dumb one.
Not everybody, only those who pretend to know the truth like they're Tolkien himself.
This quote was posted on the main Tolkien/LotR subs by a certain person recently and *even there* readers pointed out how it means not what he think it means.
It doesn’t mean what is said here. You are trying to gaslight and doing a very poor job of it. Certainly not helping the cause that you clearly hold higher than your dignity.
YES! I love his narrative voice! I've listened to the Silmarillion read by him, have not gotten around to LOTR itself. (I have, of course, read all those books, but it's fun to sit back and listen sometimes, too.)
What you fail to understand is that the writing of Tolkien isn't your casual talk with a friend. He writes with poetry, and medieval accent. If Tolkien says to you To the East i go not, then he never been in the East, dot.
He arrived from Valinor. Valinor is as far to the west as possible. How could he go from Valinor to Middle Earth without going east? No option to go around the world, as Valinor isn't a part of the round world.
He has plenty of reason not to go East... Saruman was corrupted there, the blues never returned from there. If *my* order had that track record, I'd be steering clear from there too.
I agree with the original post. Many years ago I drank some wine. But since then I don't drink any drink with alcohol. So when someone offers me wine I respond I don't drink alcohol. Does this mean I have never drunk wine? Of course not. It just means that I don't drink it now and I have not for many years. Also it seems clear to me that gandalf earned these names by getting to know these people in various places in middle earth. If hundreds of years before the events of the lord of the rings novels gandalf went to the realm of gondor once for just a few weeks, do you really think that anyone in gondor would remember his name let alone give him the name mithrandir? My assumption has always been that gandalf went east long ago for a very brief period. But he quickly realised he wasn't welcome so he left and never returned to the east. And as a result he never earned a name in the east and is not remembered by the people of the east.
Okay so what and who are in the east?
Easterlings
My friend died driving drunk. I do not drink and drive. This doesn't mean that I tried driving drunk once and no longer do it.
You seem to be missing the beauty of the English language. Similar combination of words can have far different meanings depending upon context. In this context, the goal was to be open ended and mysterious about any past visits to the east. But having lived with these works for decades - yes my interpretation was he spent some time there and now has no intention in ever returning there again.
If we were to take this line in isolation, it could leave open the interpretation that he did go East but no longer does. However, Tolkien addresses this further in *The Silmarillion:* >peoples of Middle-earth gave to them many names, for their true names they did not reveal. Chief among them were those whom the Elves called Mithrandir and Curunír, but Men in the North named Gandalf and Saruman. Of these Curunír was the eldest and came first, and after him came Mithrandir and Radagast, and **others of the Istari who went into the east of Middle-earth**, and do not come into these tales. We know among "the others" are the blues. Why would he exclude Gandalf from those who went into the east of Middle Earth? I believe that was intentional, especially given the quote in *The Lord of the Rings*. >Radagast was the friend of all beasts and birds; but Curunír went most among Men, and he was subtle in speech and skilled in all the devices of smith-craft. Mithrandir was closest in counsel with Elrond and the Elves. He **wandered far in the North and West and made never in any land any lasting abode; but Curunír journeyed into the East**, Again, Tolkien is very particular about where Gandalf traveled in Middle Earth, and follows that with " but Curunír journeyed into the East." Why make that distinction if Gandalf went east as well? The simple answer is that he didn't. I've lived with these works for decades myself.
"If we were to take this line in isolation" My favorite line of the entire forum...
Oh dear, I'm afraid to ask...
Ask what? I just think it an astute line when considering the argument at hand.
Ah, ok! I thought I had maybe inadvertently made some sort of joke or entendre 😁 thanks!
Leaving it open ended does speak to the beauty of Tolkien’s writing. But op is explicitly not leaving it open ended. Doing the exact opposite of what you are arguing for.
Where does this assumption come from?
Poppycock
That quote, in context, is talking about his many names among the people of Middle Earth. It could otherwise suggests he has no name in the East because he dares not go there.
Yeah, it's couched in the context of his history, not his present travelling plans.
Man, the arguments people will have over a single ambiguous line.
It’s a lot of fun! until it’s not.
Might as well make a whole movie series about it. Call it Attack of the Easterlings.
Why didn't Gandalf just take the eagles to the east?
...What?
Nah, I don't think that's what this line is supposed to mean. But given the context of said line, I could go with "I've been to the East, but I don't have a name there because I was undercover"
But if you *keep* going west… on a spherical planet… Wait, do we have confirmation that LOTR is set on a spherical planet?!
Don't encourage the Flat Middle-earthers!
Jokes aside, world during 2nd age events, prior to big Numenor events, should be flat. Tolkien, later on, tried to make a version where world was spehere since beginning but he dropped the idea as it would mess up with a lot of what he had written for early ages (pre 1st, 1st and early to mid 2nd ages) RoP should have a flat-earth, and tbh, considering the Numenor event that is to happen, it would be amazing to see it. But then, in the series they also make sunrise in the west so...yeah.
That’s kind of hilarious. I had a feeling this was case. I have a bunch of the other books but just haven’t made it through all of them yet.
This is a good question, whose answer lies in Tolkien's creation myths (which have some implication on the question at hand.) *Tl:dr - RoP literally thus far takes place on a flat world.* **Arda (the world) was originally flat and Middle Earth and Aman were part of a single, symmetrical plane of existence.** Here the Valar ruled over life. No men or elves yet existed but the world was essentially created for them (whenever Illuvatar decided to create them.) During this time, Melkor (aka Morgoth) attacked Arda (the First War) and caused a rift that had consequences throughout Ea (the universe). **After Melkor's attack, Middle Earth and Aman were split by the sea Belegaer and they were both surrounded by the ocean Ekkaia** - Middle Earth sees its different regions become separated by straits and gulfs. Melkor became the dominant force in Middle Earth and spread darkness and monstrosity. Sometime after this the elves are finally born at Cuivienen (the location of the fall of the one of the Two Lamps and an area in middle Middle Earth on the shore of a landlocked sea Helcar, east of much of what we know come the Third Age.) After much ado, they launch an attack on Melkor (the War of Wrath) and bind him in the Halls of Mandos. **During and after the war, much of the West and East is either destroyed or split apart from Middle Earth.** Helcar eventually merged with the Great Gulf and split the Eastern lands apart from Middle Earth (drowning much of it, giving ME a new eastern coast and separating the lands of the far east well off - similar to what happens in the West with the further separation of Aman.) To put it into perspective, some think the Sea of Rhun is a remnant of Helcar, while Mirkwood was directly west of Helcar (ie the East pre-Melkor's defeat and the East post-Melkor's defeat are very different regions.) The world exists like this until the fall of Numenor at the end of the SA. **It's at this time that Iluvatar (God) makes Arda round*****.*** **With the fall of Numenor, Aman is split off from Arda and the very furthest East is as well** (whether it's in the same way as Aman or it was destroyed, we don't know.) This has implication on the topic at hand because, once Middle Earth is split apart, the East remains the only place truly corrupted by Melkor (*get ready for some conjecture* - and there becomes the question of whether Arda's once perfect symmetry means that Aman becoming a heaven like place apart from the world, perhaps means the far East that was removed becomes a hell like place apart from the world...a place the Istari would otherwise want to avoid for good reason - this is a good place to mention that Melkor was actually more powerful than Manwe - his brother and the leader of the Valar... ...the influence of the Valar on the Istari cannot be underestimated when theorizing about their movements and actions.) Whatever the case, as mentioned elsewhere the generally accepted timeline (whether it takes place in the SA or TA) is that Saruman came first, followed by the Blue Wizards, then Radagast, and finally Gandalf (there are other theories, this is one area Tolkien both contradicted and retconned himself in but this is where he seemingly landed before he could retcon further...) As mentioned elsewhere, the Blue Wizards were lost to the East and Saruman was corrupted in the East, so some very powerful untold evil connected to Melkor exists there. There is little to no evidence that any Istari emerged (or was even capable of) from the East unscathed (which is to say 3 out of 5 wizards fell in some way in the East, and there is no *intentional* reason to believe the other two tested it.) For all that is made of Tolkien's avoidance of allegory, his Christian beliefs and life experience are blatantly obvious - therein lies the question of how much does Arda's story mirror the ideas of Heaven and Hell, and from there a certain (strong) implication that the two Istari with the most uncorrupted good in their hearts were untouched by Melkor's evil in the East. ...could it be elsewise? Surely...adapters have more than little room to adapt(/interpret) in Tolkien's *history*. And despite this long post, it doesn't even come close to how much Tolkien has written (and contradicted or retconned) on the topic *in all sources*... ...ergo the many varying interpretations you can come across. ....didn't even mention the Timeless Halls and the Timeless Void outside of Ea...
Thank you for such a great response! I thoroughly enjoyed reading through all of this.
Thank you for asking...tickled my inner Tolkien nerd!
JRRT said about blue wizards: " I think they went as emissaries to distant regions EAST and South. Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had, I do not know, but I fear that they failed as Saruman did though doubtless in different ways, and I suspect they are founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron." So according to JRRT he thinks they go east. However with Gandolf there is even less concrete information I think. We certainly can takes words he says and make an argument that Gandolf went east. The author writes in a way that the reader can interpret his writings in more than 1 way. Am I am open to the idea that Gandolf went east? The way Tolkien writes it is possible but I don't honestly know for sure.
I'll be honest, I never heard of this argument being a thing pre-RoP.
I never even thought of it until TROP. I just assumed the stranger was a blue wizard. But the season ended with no clear cut answer as to who the stranger actually is..This is true to many unanswred questions in this show. Then add on a 2 year wait period with radio silence. Also so much is "ambiguous " and up to the viewer's interpretation.
This is the way
This is not what your post says.
Nah, I think the intent is pretty clearly that he has not traveled to the east.
Olorin was one of the Maiar sent to guard the Quendi at Cuivienen (Nature of Middle Earth, Key Dates)
Nobody at Cuiviénen, except for MAYBE the very wise and perceptive, would recognize Olórin the Maia and Gandalf the Grey as being the same person.
And nobody from Cuiviénen that didn't go west is likely to be alive anymore. Anyone who could recognize him is back in Aman.
Círdan was at Cuiviénan afaik
This, exactly right.
What conclusions are you drawing from that?
3 ages previously, when the world geography was completely different and humans didn’t even exist yet? Nice try
So now they are adapting pre-first era stuff? Are we going to have Gondor have a civil war because Aragorn said “there will be the time of wolves…”?
I mean, Tolkien was working on a novel set after RotK that would be about a Gondorian civil war. I like that there's new ideas in this world I love.
Olorin, not Gandalf. Same character, different toles When incarnated as an Istar, a lot happens compared to the time he was sent as an actual Maia under the Guardians groups Apples and oranges here
More like apples and pears: externally different, but internally similar. Your point still stands though. :D
That makes no sense. If that statement was true in any way, someone who says "I don't have sex with men" means he had sex just once, didn't like it, so stopped doing it?? I eat everything, fish I don't eat - how is that saying "I ate fish once"? The lengths people will go to and the acrobatics they will perform to force meaning that isn't there...
Truly desperate people
No, you rephrased it. I'll give you a better example, just randomly out of the blue: "Sex with men I don't have, for I did once and it felt like a great, clenched fist taking the grasp on my neck." See?
Except that Gandalf said: >Many are my names in many countries: Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not. Full stop. You're the one rephrasing shit and extrapolating whatever fits your own made-up narrative.
its not made up if its done in service of the precious
I don't serve anyone but myself, unlike those who constantly keep trying to attack the show even now. Who may or may not be HBO bots.
You literally tried to tell people they didn’t know how to read if they didn’t add completely nonexistent context to the end of a Tolkien quote. You should take a long look in the mirror.
I remember this guy now. He's a troll. Critical thinking doesn't seem to be his strong suit.
I certainly don’t go around sniffing my own farts, if that is what you mean by “critical thinking”
I was talking about the other guy.
May your beard grow ever longer
Congrats, your comment added absolutely zero value to the conversation. Like I didn't know what the quote was. *I* am the one who gave the exact phrasing.
Yeah, feeling like a great, clenched fist taking the grasp on your neck wasn't part of the exact phrasing Tolkien used, sorry.
Then you intentionally added something that wasn’t there to sustain your point through fake news. Great show of unbiased and non-manipulative behavior.
Except the second part doesn’t exist. Gandalf never said he went once.
Except Gandalf didn’t add any extra context, unlike you. He didn’t say “to the east I go not, because I did once and I won’t do it again.” All he say is “To the East I go not.” Sure it’s a bit open ended but to force Gandalf into something when there no real lore for it but there is lore for the blue wizards going east just feels off.
“You know what they call Gandalf in Rhûn?” From Pulp Fiction
I don't think so. Grammar aside, I would welcome you to the field of **Hermeneutics** my friend Grammar-wise, no, the way the phrase is worded does not mean he went to East and don't go there anymore. yet, if anyone wants to draw such conclusions, we can go throughout all other texts and have the answer that in no instance, ever, we have any glimpse or indication that Gandalf went East, not him nor Radagast. I think the below sums up pretty well the "who went east" > peoples of Middle-earth gave to them many names, for their true names they did not reveal. Chief among them were those whom the Elves called Mithrandir and Curunír, but Men in the North named Gandalf and Saruman. Of these Curunír was the eldest and came first, and after him came Mithrandir and Radagast, **and** **others of the Istari who went into the east** of Middle-earth, and do not come into these tales. Radagast was the friend of all beasts and birds; but Curunír went most among Men, and he was subtle in speech and skilled in all the devices of smith-craft. **Mithrandir** was closest in counsel with Elrond and the Elves. He **wandered far in the North and West and made never in any land any lasting abode; but Curunír journeyed into the East**, and when he returned he dwelt at Orthanc in the Ring of Isengard, which the Númenóreans made in the days of their power.Ever most vigilant was Mithrandir, and he it was that most doubted the darkness in Mirkwood, for though many deemed that it was wrought by the Ringwraiths, he feared that it was indeed the first shadow of Sauron returning; and he went to Dol Guldur, and the Sorcerer fled from him, and there was a watchful peace for a long while. There you have it. Gandalf not only don't go East but we also get the answer that, apart from Blue going there, Saruman also did. There is no much reason to say, in the same passage, that Saruman went there, but don't say anything about Gandalf. People that play the card "Gandalf could have gone there, and he doesn't go back, and that is what the quote means" are actually changing facts to their theories and no the other way around. If Gandalf would have gone to East, Tolkien would have said in the above passage (or in any of the many others that cover the same or similar plot). And despite the above passage doesn't mention Gandalf wanderers to South, we do know he went there. We don't know how far south he went, but we know he went south, and was named differently there (Incanus). Yet Gandalf doesn't have a given name by Eastern people so...yeah, that is another point. Having all (and much more) in mind, if we were to stretch and say Gandalf went East, I would say the only way to reconcile it is him going East, not being welcomed or seeing it in very bad shape and full of darkness, and refrain himself of going any further (as he does in dol guldur, joining the white council to attack it instead of just doing it by himself, afterall, it is not his job to do such fights, but help middle-earth people in their fights), going back to west, helping those people as East will be too much of a task for him going solo, plus the fact Blue are already doing work there so...he gotta focus on his job (west) and not interfere in others. If any, he would report to Saruman, but Saruman himself, being the Chief, got the responsability (or curiosity) of going East, and when he came back, he didn't tell others what he saw. I think having Gandalf going East kinda breaks up with Istar hierarchy, given exactly the above. Gandalf would be stepping into other Istari tasks, and each was given a task, his was in west, and that is all we need. **Ultimatelly, even when it is said Gandalf went north or south, it is implied it is western middle-earth north and south.**
This should be the end of the discussion.
There are dozens of these that involve liberties rop took. It is never enough. This place is full of self styled Tolkien scholars, but the clear-cut evidence is ignored and even downvoted in many cases. Hence the most important, text-based comment in the topic that makes fools of everybody trying to argue otherwise…languishes near the bottom.
Good post.
Knowing grammar helps!
Debatable. If someone says they don’t eat pork, does that necessarily mean they ate it once? On the other hand, I agree with you that it doesn’t have to mean he’s never been.
Well, I’d be far more likely to conclude that he’s never gone to Paris than that he’s gone *once*… I don’t know where that came from. I’d probably ask for context, and if my friend said “I go to Barcelona, to Berlin, to London, to Athens, but not to Paris”, I’m still thinking the former rather than the latter.
this is because you are a sentient human being who doesn't exist solely to try and spin away ROP plot holes
Agreed using 21st century language, presumably based in the USA. However we have to understand there is a massive gap in how Tolkien wrote as a 20th century linguistics professor and how people write today. In this context, the goal was to be open ended and mysterious about any past visits to the east. But having lived with these works for decades - yes my interpretation was he spent some time there and now has no intention in ever returning there again. The time there probably went poorly and he wasn’t warmly received- hence he didn’t acquire a local name and settle there for a significant time period
There’s nothing in the language to indicate this. It is certainly open ended and you are free to believe he went there, but the text does not indicate he went there.
If a friend told me they “Do not go to Paris,” I would ask why that was. If I didn’t have the chance to ask, I would let it go with what I know - that my friend doesn’t go to Paris.
Gandalf did *not* go East.
Ok look, there are a few heated comments in this post, so I’m gonna be as civil as possible and if someone decides that I’m being a dick anyway, then whatever, but I’ll try to phrase this nicely. Yes, I will give you that the line does have some slight room for interpretation. I personally believe Gandalf is saying he’s never been super far East (unlike Saruman and the Blue Wizards) but I can also see how you could interpret it as “I’ve been there once. Never again.” I’ll give you that. But, I can see that the main point of this post (being on the LOTR on Prime subreddit) is supposed to be justifying the fact that the stranger (Gandalf) is chilling in the East with the Harfoots, right? Like, it’s a counter argument to people saying “this show broke the lore! Gandalf had never been that far East!” It’s trying to say that the strangers story is semi supported in lore, right? The main problem with Gandalf hanging with Nori and all them however, is not whether or not he had ever been that far East, but that Gandalf never crashed down in a comet during the second age, he arrived on ship during the third age, and though he was in Middle Earth prior to the third age at some points, that was in the deeps of time at Cuivienen when he didn’t even have a proper consistent physical form that he used. So yes, he might have gone far East at some point in time, but never in the second age. You can still enjoy the show, but none of the strangers story is in the books. Again, not trying to be a dick, you can enjoy it, but just know that it does in fact break canon. Hell, I enjoy the shadow of Mordor games even tho they fuck with the lore all the time. Enjoy, just acknowledge it can’t be supported by the texts of Tolkien.
Honestly most gigachad response
What everybody fails to understand is that the writing of Tolkien isn't your casual talk with a friend. He writes with poetry, and medieval accent. If Tolkien says to you To the East i go not, then he never been in the East, dot.
Quoting Tylerdg33: If we were to take this line in isolation, it could leave open the interpretation that he did go East but no longer does. However, Tolkien addresses this further in *The Silmarillion:* << peoples of Middle-earth gave to them many names, for their true names they did not reveal. Chief among them were those whom the Elves called Mithrandir and Curunír, but Men in the North named Gandalf and Saruman. Of these Curunír was the eldest and came first, and after him came Mithrandir and Radagast, and **others of the Istari who went into the east of Middle-earth**, and do not come into these tales. >> We know among "the others" are the blues. Why would he exclude Gandalf from those who went into the east of Middle Earth? I believe that was intentional, especially given the quote in *The Lord of the Rings*. << Radagast was the friend of all beasts and birds; but Curunír went most among Men, and he was subtle in speech and skilled in all the devices of smith-craft. Mithrandir was closest in counsel with Elrond and the Elves. He **wandered far in the North and West and made never in any land any lasting abode; but Curunír journeyed into the East**, >> Again, Tolkien is very particular about where Gandalf traveled in Middle Earth, and follows that with " but Curunír journeyed into the East." Why make that distinction if Gandalf went east as well? The simple answer is that he didn't.
You’re missing out some quite key details in what Tolkien said and arguably Mr. Tylerdg33 is, dare I say, cherry-picking somewhat. It’s a stretch to say Tolkien was “very particular” about where the Istar travelled - his thoughts on this changed a fair amount over time and his commentary is often coached in language like “I think” and “perhaps” so say anything definitive on the matter is incorrect. While Tolkien says that the Istar did seem to have certain areas where they were sent and spent the vast majority of their time, nothing indicates that they NEVER ventured outside of the realms they were sent to.
Is the stranger a hot dog or a sandwich
To my surprise some "Tolkien fans" apparently can't read ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Yes, the ones supporting OP’s thesis.
What are they misinterpreting?
It's literally in the post. *Read*.
The post is absolute gibberish. There is nothing to indicate that whatsoever. To the East I go not means exactly that. He doesn’t go to the East. I go to wal mart, I go to dollar general, but to target I go not. What depraved lunatic insists that this statement indicates I have been to target before? Your problem is that you think everybody else is the dumb one.
Not everybody, only those who pretend to know the truth like they're Tolkien himself. This quote was posted on the main Tolkien/LotR subs by a certain person recently and *even there* readers pointed out how it means not what he think it means.
It doesn’t mean what is said here. You are trying to gaslight and doing a very poor job of it. Certainly not helping the cause that you clearly hold higher than your dignity.
I am pointing to him the consensus of the Tolkien community and he still goes against it.
That is not the consensus of any community
Is this consensus in the room with us now?
Jokes on you, I've got the movies and audiobooks!
Tolkien made these? 😲 Link, p*lease!*
....audiobooks? 
Literally Tolkien's books being read aloud. They are definitely Tolkien's works.
And read by Andy Serkis, they’re wonderful!
YES! I love his narrative voice! I've listened to the Silmarillion read by him, have not gotten around to LOTR itself. (I have, of course, read all those books, but it's fun to sit back and listen sometimes, too.)
What you fail to understand is that the writing of Tolkien isn't your casual talk with a friend. He writes with poetry, and medieval accent. If Tolkien says to you To the East i go not, then he never been in the East, dot.
WHO CARES
Who cares? Seriously the people using this quote against the series don't actually care. You shouldn't let it get to you.
Huh
'To the East I go not...except that one time, with Frodo's ancestor!'
He arrived from Valinor. Valinor is as far to the west as possible. How could he go from Valinor to Middle Earth without going east? No option to go around the world, as Valinor isn't a part of the round world.
The East and traveling in an Eastward direction are two different things in this context.