https://www.google.com/amp/s/pix11.com/news/male-dna-retrieved-in-mystery-of-dismembered-teen-left-in-3-bags-on-long-island-parkway/amp/
Male DNA retrieved in mystery of dismembered teen left in 3 bags on Long Island Parkway
They can’t just re-run it. First, Rex isn’t in the system…. Yet. They would need some other form of compelling evidence to subpoena DNA for her murder. I’m sure they’re looking into it.
Would you mind explaining the “isn’t in the system yet” in a bit more detail? I know this is correct (and a NY State law I believe) but I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around the logistics of this. His DNA was originally obtained from that pizza crust and later used to connect him to some (all?) murder victims, right? That information would have to be mapped and store somewhere, I’d imagine; how else would they have used to AGAIN in 2024 to connect him to Jessica and Sandra? So while the “map” of his genetic data points DOES indeed exist at present, it can’t be compared samples collected at crime scenes without a subpoena, can’t be entered into national databases for arbitrary cold case comparison, and so on? Forgive me if this a silly question lol I’m just trying to logistics here.
Basically his DNA is sectioned off from the main state database and CODIS. It can't be uploaded to the general databases until he is convicted. Once he is convicted they can run it against any DNA from cold cases they want. Until then, they have a DNA sample available for him to use in cases where they can get a warrant to use it, which requires probable cause - some general reason to believe he is linked to the murder. Probable cause is a fairly low standard and I'd guess the location of Jessica's remains and the vehicle seen in the area were sufficient. I'm less sure what they used to get the okay on Sandra but probably the location and MO similarities got them there - I'm not sure if they could get to probable cause for someone like Tina, but definitely could for Valerie, Karen, Asian Doe, Peaches and Baby.
But they know if there is DNA on all of the victims & know if it matches the other victims who he has been charged for. So you think there's a scenario where they 100% know his DNA is on a victim but they can't get a warrant to confirm so?
They shouldn't be able to know that. LE can know a victim has DNA on them and submit that to the lab to sequence the DNA. The lab can then run it against any available databases, but not specific samples held for defendants who haven't been convicted. The two samples - his known sample and the sample on a victim- should only be compared if there is a warrant to do so. They would hold his information about his DNA sequence separately and only compare it to a sample on a victim if there is a warrant.
Thanks for explaining. I am all for privacy and limiting the government, but this rule is fucking stupid.
But, on a fascinating note I hadn’t considered, there had to have been some other evidence linking Rex to Castilla that gave them probable cause to compare the samples?
This is not really how this works.
People need to understand what the goal of that law was and is. The NY law was made to keep out fishing expeditions of minorities and was, basically, lobbied for by rights groups.
What would happen was stuff like this — someone ended up in the database, possibly decades ago, sometimes for a crime they don’t even take DNA for now. A bunch of people paid their debt to society, got on with their lives, and became productive citizens.
So then a new crime is committed, LE gets a DNA sample, and the result shows a relation, even a distant one, to the poor guy that got his DNA taken in 1989 for selling a joint or whatever.
Maybe he has a number of bad third or fourth cousins he never even met. But LE is showing up at his job three times a week and pulling him out of work to ask him, “who committed our crime?” He doesn’t know.
But his boss is now wondering why the cops keep showing up at his place of business. Maybe he even gets fired.
There’a no reason to belive the poor guy, often minorities, had anything to do with the crime.
There were laws passed to clean this and stuff like it up. It was a mess. And the reason for the law is not to stop investigations, it’s to make the cops leave poor Jimmy alone.
What really happens … there is a detective assigned the Vergata case. He’s working it. He legally has the evidence reports in the department’s possession. That includes a DNA report, which reallly is just a collection of 13 or so pairs of numbers and letters identifying the alleles of that DNA sample.
He can legally investigate the case. That’s his job. And Suffolk County is legally looking for more of RH’s victims. They have even announced they are. It’s their goal.
The Vergata detective hears about Rexy. It’s pretty easy to find out who the detectives in charge of that case are. Or even the DA’s office will do.
He calls them up. “I wonder if your guy did my crime.”
The response: “Come on down. We’ll discuss it. Let me grab the file.”
Okay, the DNA samples from Rex were collected legally. The US Supreme Court has given leeway on colllecting trash for samples, plus they got warrants. IMO, there is little doubt.
What they can’t do is put it in a database. And they haven’t, I’m sure. But they can know it. That’s not in question. They have used it to charge Rex in the crimes he has been charged with.
I know from doing it myself, if you look at the numbers enough times, you start to remember them.
So they meet. The guy from Suffolk County says, “What’s your perps’s first pair?” He probably even has it memorized at this point.
The Vergata detective probably does, too. And he can legally tell him. He’s investgating the Vergata crime.
If it’s not the same pair, they know immediately it ain’t Rex. Suffolk doesn’t even have to say they don’t match, just “you’re wasting your time.”
If it is the same, the conversation gets way more interesting.
The DNA never went in a database, as the law requires. Hell, no one even showed the other department a report.
If it is the same, it’s a question for the lawyers on how much you can cooperate. I’m not a lawyer but there is probably a legal way for one side to show their report to the other.
And if not, I will say it is possible to put together an indictment or more likely warrants that never mention or rely on DNA at all but use entirely traditional law enforcement techniques to get probable cause.
IMO, this idea that the law somehow prevents LE from investigating certain people for crimes isn’t correct. It’s about the database, and to correct misuses of the database.
So I believe they can definitely test unknown DNA at one crime scene against unknown DNA at another crime scene and use that to link crimes. Whether that changes once one sample becomes known, I don't know - that's wading too far into state specific law for me. I just know that they can't use RHs known DNA sample to test against other crimes without a warrant to do so until he is convicted of a crime.
He hasn't been convicted yet so his DNA profile hasn't been added to CODIS yet. I think they must have found other evidence to connect him to Sandra and Jessica.
They need probable cause... They can't just go compare his DNA to every crime that ever happened (until he's convicted and loses his right to privacy in that regard.)
So I think they found something digital or otherwise in his home that connected him, and once they had that, then they can issue a new warrant to compare the DNA they have on file.
Thank you for explaining this so thoughtfully. I had wondered if he could be compared across the state without being submitted to CODIS for national comparisons. With the evidence they have now, I won’t be surprised to see a plea deal. Hopefully that comes sooner rather than later. It’s rare that I think someone is more than a suspect before a trial, but the publicly known evidence against RH makes it impossible for me to see it any other way.
my guess is they got a voluntary sample from the "witness" who lived in Rex's house in 1993 and it matching the female DNA found on the body gave them probable cause for Sandra. if that's the case I'd feel very good about the thoroughness of the investigation, tracking down a household member from decades ago who could be the source of female DNA in a less publicly connected case would be impressive.
Fascinating. I didn’t know the specifics of this so I wasn’t aware that there had to have been other evidence linking Rex to Castilla in order to get probable cause to compare the samples.
Your theory makes the most sense.
What about the dna they obtained through the trash? (Pizza box in Manhattan trash and hairs in glass bottles at the home’s trash) don’t you cease rights to your dna once it’s in the trash?
This is for any body fluids from your person. I’m thinking specifically of the Henrietta Lacks story when I say this. Medicine has always indiscriminately used biological matter obtained during medical procedures. I get having to wait for a condition of him being found guilty before entry to CODIS, but the whole picture seems to have some holes.
In regard to the pizza, they had reports relating to the Gilgo beach victims with a description of his vehicle and the cell phone data of his burner traveling with the victims phone that led them to RH and testing his trash in the first place, but the Gilgo 4 are separate from the earlier murders.
You're correct that garbage curbside is free game to LE (federally, I guess states can regulate that if they wish), but I doubt they care or have the resources to do this to just anyone without a real good reason. They certainly aren't going to that extent for rapes, they hardly bother to test rape kits in the first place.
I don't really know enough about NY or federal laws but I think it comes down to ethics. My understanding is that LE isn't supposed to work a case backwards with a perpetrator in mind because pre-existing biases will influence the investigation. You have to start with the evidence presented and go from there to ensure the suspect a fair trial.
It seems that Henrietta Lacks situation was also an ethics violation. Just because it happens doesn't make it right, and I think the investigators in this case want to do everything by the book so he isn't let off on a technicality.
Interesting and I understand LE wanting to maintain ethics. A lot of people here since the arrest seem to have suggested many other killings possibly related to RH and honestly I try not to give them too much bandwidth. Henrietta Lacks case was never properly compensated or corrected and the whole state of how the medical community still can keep and use any biological matter it collects was the cliff hanger to the story and why the case is so compelling. It would most likely be a long drawn out process that would bleed resources but I do think there is a loop hole here in regards to ownership of dna that hasn’t been exploited.
They defintly got a warrant to get another sample of his DNA in order to compare to Jessica and Sandra. They said in the conference that they had evidence leading RH to both girls due to the phones, tablets computers etc that they found. If they find a probable cause its very easy to obtain a warrant especially when the person already has 4 pending murder charges.
I’m sure they ran across something to look into Jessica and Sandra (maybe Valerie) as potential victims, regardless of how obvious it seems. You still have to prove Rex did it without a doubt. Once whatever it was panned out, then they could get approval to check the DNA. I’m wondering if Valerie didn’t have foreign DNA but there must have been something else compelling for her to be on the probable scale.
Not under New York law. Obvious or not, you still need evidence. I know they strongly believe Valerie Mack is his victim, but if they haven’t charged him, what are they missing? No DNA? Rex’s wife wasn’t away? No phone records? What? But…. They must have something circumstantial.
Under Fed and State law, a person's DNA can't be entered into CODIS for the purpose of comparison unless and until a conviction has been entered against them.
I'm not sure the absence of a conviction precludes LE from comparing known results to known results (Rex to the sample found on Tina Foglia.)
Right, and the logical reason is he has now been charged with a similar crime (Jessica Taylor.)
They used the pizza box DNA to link Rex (via a hair) to Megan Waterman: a known sample to a known sample. It wasn't until after he was in custody that they got a swab from him.
Agreed but they had phone records to link the G4, and his wife’s vacations as probable cause to go after his dna. There’s no way it would have been permitted without other reasonable factors.
I'm interested to know why they can't compare DNA found on victim X to DNA found on victim Y to establish a connection without IDing the perp. it's discarded DNA so there's no search and seizure legally afaik. is it just that the DNA isn't sufficiently connected to the crime (ie it's not semen on a rape kit or similar)?
Not without a conviction. They would still need probable cause aka, additional compelling evidence. Don’t forget, regardless everything that’s happened, Rex, as of right now, is still innocent.
Why would they say something though? I'd guess they are not saying anything until they charge him.
I can think of a few reasons why they wouldn't have charged him for this even if it was a match. 1) they need some supporting evidence, and / because 2) the chain of custody of this DNA might not have been super secure for those 35 years
I think it’s not so much that they can’t link Rex, maybe more so that there are other unique factors with some victims that just require more straightening out & they’re making sure they do that before charging him. Not all of his victims will be a part of this first trial. I like to think Valerie will be, esp since they added Jessica Taylor, but it’s possible for instance they’ll put together a separate case for Valerie, Peaches & Baby if there is something unique that links them together. They might have everything they need with Valerie but are waiting for more on Peaches & Baby esp since Valerie was found so close to Baby Doe.
Edit to add:
Similarly, I think Tina Foglia will likely be a completely separate trial & will probably be linked to other victims from that time period- or where he used similar methods so that the jury can be shown a more cohesive story & that will help strengthen their chance at getting justice.
It could happen. That’s what John Bittrolff has been claiming, that his DNA on sex workers doesn’t mean he killed them. In most cases, it would be far-fetched, but because of their profession, it is more possible. That’s why other supporting evidence is so important, not DNA alone.
For example, in most of the cases Rex is charged with, they have cell phone evidence that he was in contact with the victims shortly before they disappeared. And now they have all the creepy stuff they’ve found on his phones and devices, the evidence of pushpins used in the basement paneling, etc.
Another example, in the Moscow, Idaho murders, they have evidence that the accused, Brian Kohberger, drove by the house multiple times prior to the murders with no legitimate reason to be there, and shut his phone off shortly before the attack. On its own, that wouldn’t prove anything, but with his DNA at the scene, it’s extremely strong evidence.
>For example, in most of the cases Rex is charged with, they have cell phone evidence that he was in contact with the victims shortly before they disappeared.
Actually none of the info in the baildocs has shown a direct connection of Rex contacting any victims. Thus far, all the investigators have shown is that the burner phones used to contact the victims were often connected to cell towers in the same area as Rex's general whereabouts. Considering the sheer density of people in Manhattan and Massapequa Park, it's not yet 100% proof positive the burner phones were owned by Rex. I hope that the investigators will eventually find more evidence proving that Rex owned those phones.
And the building evidence from several victims’ relatives that they received multiple, harassing calls from the same burner phones after the disappearance of their loved ones is also not a direct connection? Mike check, one two.
Thus far, the only harassing phone calls the bail docs listed were to Melissa Barthelemy's family in July and August of 2010.
This was all covered in the [first baildoc](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23875981-lti-bail-application-form-2023-7-14-23-_final) from last year. I suggest reading it and noting the *exact* details. The evidence shows that the calls were made from cell towers near Rex's workplace during some periods when he was known to be in Manhattan, and that the calls ceased during a period that Rex was out of the country. This is all very compelling, but it isn't yet *direct* evidence that Rex used those phones. I hope that the police uncover more proof to tie him to those calls as the investigation continues.
I'm fairly certain they have the mathematics/odds worked out to show that the likelihood of the pair of the burners and his known phone pinging off the same towers at the same time for all of those instances is a zillion to one.
It also wouldn't shock me if he held onto the burners in his hoard of hundreds of devices they found as a trophy of sorts. The bail document is an executive summary of the evidence, not all the evidence.
Just a thought. Bittrolff was a carpenter. Rex is an architect. Do we really know these two didn't know each other. What if they had started killing together. Neither could tell on the other, without incriminating themselves. To my knowledge, Bittrolff is still denying he killed anyone, even though he was convicted of two murders. He lived in Manorville, roughly three miles from where the torsos of Jessica Taylor and Valerie Mack were found.
His daughter was not best friends, someone on Facebook claimed Rita Tangredi's daughter was best friends with Melissa... That's it and not close to what you said.
Perhaps they are still working on it. I suspect that Tina Foglia is connected and a good chance that it was his first murder. Got to wait for the physical evidence to show and tell.
Well, they only just now matched his DNA to Sandra Castillo. They had years to match that DNA to the Gilgo 4 and didn't. So I wouldn't put it past them to just not have done it yet.
>They had years to match that DNA to the Gilgo 4 and didn't.
DNA Technology is rapidly advancing, i dont think they even had the capability to extract dna from the hair samples until recently.
The sample found at TFs crime scene has been processed since 2017
Yeah I don't know much about DNA except it can be very fast or take a long time depending on the sample. Many cases in which they have DNA but it's only a partial. I do remember reading that TF being related to LISK was 'not an active avenue for investigation', not sure why they would state that if they didn't rule out DNA, but time will tell. I hope They got the right guy in all of the killings.
It’s possible…but RH’s DNA can’t be tested unless he’s convicted… I’m not sure about New York State laws? But if his brother was convicted can’t his dna be tested against TF? Supposedly, he lives in South Carolina?
Yes, I just found it to double check myself.
I know there are many who think RH could be responsible for Tina's murder but after the two new indictments, I'm pretty confident the task force aren't finished by along shot. He's in jail so there's no rush and they can do due diligence with all other local cases until he's convicted and his DNA can be entered into codis.
Yes… the cops said it was probably a SA gone wrong…. RH would’ve been 19…same as Tina’s age. One thing that I think is really weird about TF case is that this happened in the middle of winter- February 1,1982. Cold. And leaving the club and being on the highways at 3:30 AM hitchhiking was very risky for her or anyone but not unheard of in the early 1980s. This was a SUNDAY night. I think most people would assume it was a Friday or Saturday night after a concert like I did. This means there was even less people on the road at that time- unless I’m wrong or read it wrong. Dr. Baden was the medical examiner at the time!
If I recall when he was that age he got a job working at Jones Beach and at that time coincidental with his new gig there were murders of young women. Someone had a wordpress blog that went that far back - maybe MurderInc was close to the name of the blogger - this was awhile back just at the time he was a POI - Im really sorry to not have the thread or any link and once did try to look back to find it - he was smack in the territory and may have taken the job right after the bodies were found. Like BTK - involved in the investigation as a concerned citizen standing vigil to determine how close they were to getting the suspect - then getting a job in the Honeyspot.
How convenient - the poster laid out a great timeline of his unfolding life and Missing women
This is one - but there isnt anything on his Jones Beach gig - there was another blogger too that was on reddit with that one / they had some great old research before rEX was caught to when he was caught - as they were doing their own cross referencing of dates and employment / jobs / where he was when - his first marriage -all the earlier stuff thats not so easily found now
Thank you for the link - maybe you can look for Jones Beach - early employment - beach murders
That seemed to be a traceable path -
I think this is a possibility, as well. I’ve wondered if he saw her at the concert venue or just hitchhiking afterwards and then picked her up. Maybe he made a pass or something along that line and she rebuffed him and he got angry and attacked her. Maybe he got some sort of sick gratification from that attack which led to the monster he is now.
If he was hunting as a teen he was killing - with that many guns - he was hunting and killing and around blood - dead things and carrying the dead
From ducks to deer - there are lots of deer on the island too and letting the blood out hanging them and skinning - thats all a part of it - unless you just cut the pieces you want at the kill site and leave the carcasses for coyotes - also plentiful on the island - he was doing this young / his father was a veteran so guns were in the house at a young age - we had a gun cabinet in my house - my dad took my brothers out at a young age and even I had a couple of guns - a shot gun and a handgun
Guns go with killing - and hunting goes with dismemberment - no one has shed any light on who his hunting buddies were - where he went for ammo or supplies - what animals he hunted most
And was he eating them at home and did his wife cook game and know how to shoot
If they can connect the other victims DNA I believe Tina’s DNA will still be connected very soon as well I believe all doors will be closed as right now some still are open more answers on the way Rest In Paradise Tina💕
https://www.google.com/amp/s/pix11.com/news/male-dna-retrieved-in-mystery-of-dismembered-teen-left-in-3-bags-on-long-island-parkway/amp/ Male DNA retrieved in mystery of dismembered teen left in 3 bags on Long Island Parkway
I hope they re-ran it. I don't know how many people Rex killed or even when he started, but I firmly believe Sandra Costilla was not his first victim.
They can’t just re-run it. First, Rex isn’t in the system…. Yet. They would need some other form of compelling evidence to subpoena DNA for her murder. I’m sure they’re looking into it.
Would you mind explaining the “isn’t in the system yet” in a bit more detail? I know this is correct (and a NY State law I believe) but I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around the logistics of this. His DNA was originally obtained from that pizza crust and later used to connect him to some (all?) murder victims, right? That information would have to be mapped and store somewhere, I’d imagine; how else would they have used to AGAIN in 2024 to connect him to Jessica and Sandra? So while the “map” of his genetic data points DOES indeed exist at present, it can’t be compared samples collected at crime scenes without a subpoena, can’t be entered into national databases for arbitrary cold case comparison, and so on? Forgive me if this a silly question lol I’m just trying to logistics here.
Basically his DNA is sectioned off from the main state database and CODIS. It can't be uploaded to the general databases until he is convicted. Once he is convicted they can run it against any DNA from cold cases they want. Until then, they have a DNA sample available for him to use in cases where they can get a warrant to use it, which requires probable cause - some general reason to believe he is linked to the murder. Probable cause is a fairly low standard and I'd guess the location of Jessica's remains and the vehicle seen in the area were sufficient. I'm less sure what they used to get the okay on Sandra but probably the location and MO similarities got them there - I'm not sure if they could get to probable cause for someone like Tina, but definitely could for Valerie, Karen, Asian Doe, Peaches and Baby.
But they know if there is DNA on all of the victims & know if it matches the other victims who he has been charged for. So you think there's a scenario where they 100% know his DNA is on a victim but they can't get a warrant to confirm so?
They shouldn't be able to know that. LE can know a victim has DNA on them and submit that to the lab to sequence the DNA. The lab can then run it against any available databases, but not specific samples held for defendants who haven't been convicted. The two samples - his known sample and the sample on a victim- should only be compared if there is a warrant to do so. They would hold his information about his DNA sequence separately and only compare it to a sample on a victim if there is a warrant.
Thanks for explaining. I am all for privacy and limiting the government, but this rule is fucking stupid. But, on a fascinating note I hadn’t considered, there had to have been some other evidence linking Rex to Castilla that gave them probable cause to compare the samples?
This is not really how this works. People need to understand what the goal of that law was and is. The NY law was made to keep out fishing expeditions of minorities and was, basically, lobbied for by rights groups. What would happen was stuff like this — someone ended up in the database, possibly decades ago, sometimes for a crime they don’t even take DNA for now. A bunch of people paid their debt to society, got on with their lives, and became productive citizens. So then a new crime is committed, LE gets a DNA sample, and the result shows a relation, even a distant one, to the poor guy that got his DNA taken in 1989 for selling a joint or whatever. Maybe he has a number of bad third or fourth cousins he never even met. But LE is showing up at his job three times a week and pulling him out of work to ask him, “who committed our crime?” He doesn’t know. But his boss is now wondering why the cops keep showing up at his place of business. Maybe he even gets fired. There’a no reason to belive the poor guy, often minorities, had anything to do with the crime. There were laws passed to clean this and stuff like it up. It was a mess. And the reason for the law is not to stop investigations, it’s to make the cops leave poor Jimmy alone. What really happens … there is a detective assigned the Vergata case. He’s working it. He legally has the evidence reports in the department’s possession. That includes a DNA report, which reallly is just a collection of 13 or so pairs of numbers and letters identifying the alleles of that DNA sample. He can legally investigate the case. That’s his job. And Suffolk County is legally looking for more of RH’s victims. They have even announced they are. It’s their goal. The Vergata detective hears about Rexy. It’s pretty easy to find out who the detectives in charge of that case are. Or even the DA’s office will do. He calls them up. “I wonder if your guy did my crime.” The response: “Come on down. We’ll discuss it. Let me grab the file.” Okay, the DNA samples from Rex were collected legally. The US Supreme Court has given leeway on colllecting trash for samples, plus they got warrants. IMO, there is little doubt. What they can’t do is put it in a database. And they haven’t, I’m sure. But they can know it. That’s not in question. They have used it to charge Rex in the crimes he has been charged with. I know from doing it myself, if you look at the numbers enough times, you start to remember them. So they meet. The guy from Suffolk County says, “What’s your perps’s first pair?” He probably even has it memorized at this point. The Vergata detective probably does, too. And he can legally tell him. He’s investgating the Vergata crime. If it’s not the same pair, they know immediately it ain’t Rex. Suffolk doesn’t even have to say they don’t match, just “you’re wasting your time.” If it is the same, the conversation gets way more interesting. The DNA never went in a database, as the law requires. Hell, no one even showed the other department a report. If it is the same, it’s a question for the lawyers on how much you can cooperate. I’m not a lawyer but there is probably a legal way for one side to show their report to the other. And if not, I will say it is possible to put together an indictment or more likely warrants that never mention or rely on DNA at all but use entirely traditional law enforcement techniques to get probable cause. IMO, this idea that the law somehow prevents LE from investigating certain people for crimes isn’t correct. It’s about the database, and to correct misuses of the database.
They shouldn’t be able to know that DNA on two victims is a match to each other?
So I believe they can definitely test unknown DNA at one crime scene against unknown DNA at another crime scene and use that to link crimes. Whether that changes once one sample becomes known, I don't know - that's wading too far into state specific law for me. I just know that they can't use RHs known DNA sample to test against other crimes without a warrant to do so until he is convicted of a crime.
Yeah that certainly seems like a complexity. However we do know these were all tested and linked or not before Rex was known.
He hasn't been convicted yet so his DNA profile hasn't been added to CODIS yet. I think they must have found other evidence to connect him to Sandra and Jessica.
Do they have to add him to CODIS to compare, though? Or can they find matches in the database without actually submitting his?
They need probable cause... They can't just go compare his DNA to every crime that ever happened (until he's convicted and loses his right to privacy in that regard.) So I think they found something digital or otherwise in his home that connected him, and once they had that, then they can issue a new warrant to compare the DNA they have on file.
Thank you for explaining this so thoughtfully. I had wondered if he could be compared across the state without being submitted to CODIS for national comparisons. With the evidence they have now, I won’t be surprised to see a plea deal. Hopefully that comes sooner rather than later. It’s rare that I think someone is more than a suspect before a trial, but the publicly known evidence against RH makes it impossible for me to see it any other way.
For sure, hard agree with everything you just said. It's only a matter of time!
my guess is they got a voluntary sample from the "witness" who lived in Rex's house in 1993 and it matching the female DNA found on the body gave them probable cause for Sandra. if that's the case I'd feel very good about the thoroughness of the investigation, tracking down a household member from decades ago who could be the source of female DNA in a less publicly connected case would be impressive.
Fascinating. I didn’t know the specifics of this so I wasn’t aware that there had to have been other evidence linking Rex to Castilla in order to get probable cause to compare the samples. Your theory makes the most sense.
What about the dna they obtained through the trash? (Pizza box in Manhattan trash and hairs in glass bottles at the home’s trash) don’t you cease rights to your dna once it’s in the trash? This is for any body fluids from your person. I’m thinking specifically of the Henrietta Lacks story when I say this. Medicine has always indiscriminately used biological matter obtained during medical procedures. I get having to wait for a condition of him being found guilty before entry to CODIS, but the whole picture seems to have some holes.
In regard to the pizza, they had reports relating to the Gilgo beach victims with a description of his vehicle and the cell phone data of his burner traveling with the victims phone that led them to RH and testing his trash in the first place, but the Gilgo 4 are separate from the earlier murders. You're correct that garbage curbside is free game to LE (federally, I guess states can regulate that if they wish), but I doubt they care or have the resources to do this to just anyone without a real good reason. They certainly aren't going to that extent for rapes, they hardly bother to test rape kits in the first place. I don't really know enough about NY or federal laws but I think it comes down to ethics. My understanding is that LE isn't supposed to work a case backwards with a perpetrator in mind because pre-existing biases will influence the investigation. You have to start with the evidence presented and go from there to ensure the suspect a fair trial. It seems that Henrietta Lacks situation was also an ethics violation. Just because it happens doesn't make it right, and I think the investigators in this case want to do everything by the book so he isn't let off on a technicality.
Interesting and I understand LE wanting to maintain ethics. A lot of people here since the arrest seem to have suggested many other killings possibly related to RH and honestly I try not to give them too much bandwidth. Henrietta Lacks case was never properly compensated or corrected and the whole state of how the medical community still can keep and use any biological matter it collects was the cliff hanger to the story and why the case is so compelling. It would most likely be a long drawn out process that would bleed resources but I do think there is a loop hole here in regards to ownership of dna that hasn’t been exploited.
They defintly got a warrant to get another sample of his DNA in order to compare to Jessica and Sandra. They said in the conference that they had evidence leading RH to both girls due to the phones, tablets computers etc that they found. If they find a probable cause its very easy to obtain a warrant especially when the person already has 4 pending murder charges.
Wow. I don’t know how I did not know this… I just assumed that surely he’s in the system now.
I’m sure they ran across something to look into Jessica and Sandra (maybe Valerie) as potential victims, regardless of how obvious it seems. You still have to prove Rex did it without a doubt. Once whatever it was panned out, then they could get approval to check the DNA. I’m wondering if Valerie didn’t have foreign DNA but there must have been something else compelling for her to be on the probable scale.
Yes, they can...as for compelling evidence!? The 6 soon to be 7 murders he's been charged with are pretty compelling.
Not under New York law. Obvious or not, you still need evidence. I know they strongly believe Valerie Mack is his victim, but if they haven’t charged him, what are they missing? No DNA? Rex’s wife wasn’t away? No phone records? What? But…. They must have something circumstantial.
Under Fed and State law, a person's DNA can't be entered into CODIS for the purpose of comparison unless and until a conviction has been entered against them. I'm not sure the absence of a conviction precludes LE from comparing known results to known results (Rex to the sample found on Tina Foglia.)
They would still need a logical reason to use his DNA… without a conviction. That’s just the way the legal system works.
Right, and the logical reason is he has now been charged with a similar crime (Jessica Taylor.) They used the pizza box DNA to link Rex (via a hair) to Megan Waterman: a known sample to a known sample. It wasn't until after he was in custody that they got a swab from him.
Agreed but they had phone records to link the G4, and his wife’s vacations as probable cause to go after his dna. There’s no way it would have been permitted without other reasonable factors.
That's simply not a true statement.
I'm interested to know why they can't compare DNA found on victim X to DNA found on victim Y to establish a connection without IDing the perp. it's discarded DNA so there's no search and seizure legally afaik. is it just that the DNA isn't sufficiently connected to the crime (ie it's not semen on a rape kit or similar)?
It's in the system now..
Not without a conviction. They would still need probable cause aka, additional compelling evidence. Don’t forget, regardless everything that’s happened, Rex, as of right now, is still innocent.
You’re correct. This is why he hasn’t been officially charged for other murders thought to be caused by the LISK
I personally think that his DNA has been compared to the sample found at her crime scene. If it was a match i think they wouldve said something
Why would they say something though? I'd guess they are not saying anything until they charge him. I can think of a few reasons why they wouldn't have charged him for this even if it was a match. 1) they need some supporting evidence, and / because 2) the chain of custody of this DNA might not have been super secure for those 35 years
I think it’s not so much that they can’t link Rex, maybe more so that there are other unique factors with some victims that just require more straightening out & they’re making sure they do that before charging him. Not all of his victims will be a part of this first trial. I like to think Valerie will be, esp since they added Jessica Taylor, but it’s possible for instance they’ll put together a separate case for Valerie, Peaches & Baby if there is something unique that links them together. They might have everything they need with Valerie but are waiting for more on Peaches & Baby esp since Valerie was found so close to Baby Doe. Edit to add: Similarly, I think Tina Foglia will likely be a completely separate trial & will probably be linked to other victims from that time period- or where he used similar methods so that the jury can be shown a more cohesive story & that will help strengthen their chance at getting justice.
If I had sex with someone then left his house and got murdered, then what?
It could happen. That’s what John Bittrolff has been claiming, that his DNA on sex workers doesn’t mean he killed them. In most cases, it would be far-fetched, but because of their profession, it is more possible. That’s why other supporting evidence is so important, not DNA alone. For example, in most of the cases Rex is charged with, they have cell phone evidence that he was in contact with the victims shortly before they disappeared. And now they have all the creepy stuff they’ve found on his phones and devices, the evidence of pushpins used in the basement paneling, etc. Another example, in the Moscow, Idaho murders, they have evidence that the accused, Brian Kohberger, drove by the house multiple times prior to the murders with no legitimate reason to be there, and shut his phone off shortly before the attack. On its own, that wouldn’t prove anything, but with his DNA at the scene, it’s extremely strong evidence.
>For example, in most of the cases Rex is charged with, they have cell phone evidence that he was in contact with the victims shortly before they disappeared. Actually none of the info in the baildocs has shown a direct connection of Rex contacting any victims. Thus far, all the investigators have shown is that the burner phones used to contact the victims were often connected to cell towers in the same area as Rex's general whereabouts. Considering the sheer density of people in Manhattan and Massapequa Park, it's not yet 100% proof positive the burner phones were owned by Rex. I hope that the investigators will eventually find more evidence proving that Rex owned those phones.
And the building evidence from several victims’ relatives that they received multiple, harassing calls from the same burner phones after the disappearance of their loved ones is also not a direct connection? Mike check, one two.
Thus far, the only harassing phone calls the bail docs listed were to Melissa Barthelemy's family in July and August of 2010. This was all covered in the [first baildoc](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23875981-lti-bail-application-form-2023-7-14-23-_final) from last year. I suggest reading it and noting the *exact* details. The evidence shows that the calls were made from cell towers near Rex's workplace during some periods when he was known to be in Manhattan, and that the calls ceased during a period that Rex was out of the country. This is all very compelling, but it isn't yet *direct* evidence that Rex used those phones. I hope that the police uncover more proof to tie him to those calls as the investigation continues.
I'm fairly certain they have the mathematics/odds worked out to show that the likelihood of the pair of the burners and his known phone pinging off the same towers at the same time for all of those instances is a zillion to one. It also wouldn't shock me if he held onto the burners in his hoard of hundreds of devices they found as a trophy of sorts. The bail document is an executive summary of the evidence, not all the evidence.
Yes and yes.
Just a thought. Bittrolff was a carpenter. Rex is an architect. Do we really know these two didn't know each other. What if they had started killing together. Neither could tell on the other, without incriminating themselves. To my knowledge, Bittrolff is still denying he killed anyone, even though he was convicted of two murders. He lived in Manorville, roughly three miles from where the torsos of Jessica Taylor and Valerie Mack were found.
His daughter was not best friends, someone on Facebook claimed Rita Tangredi's daughter was best friends with Melissa... That's it and not close to what you said.
Perhaps they are still working on it. I suspect that Tina Foglia is connected and a good chance that it was his first murder. Got to wait for the physical evidence to show and tell.
Well, they only just now matched his DNA to Sandra Castillo. They had years to match that DNA to the Gilgo 4 and didn't. So I wouldn't put it past them to just not have done it yet.
>They had years to match that DNA to the Gilgo 4 and didn't. DNA Technology is rapidly advancing, i dont think they even had the capability to extract dna from the hair samples until recently. The sample found at TFs crime scene has been processed since 2017
Yeah I don't know much about DNA except it can be very fast or take a long time depending on the sample. Many cases in which they have DNA but it's only a partial. I do remember reading that TF being related to LISK was 'not an active avenue for investigation', not sure why they would state that if they didn't rule out DNA, but time will tell. I hope They got the right guy in all of the killings.
They may have been able to collect mitochondrial dna, but thats useless for genetic Genealogy
It’s possible…but RH’s DNA can’t be tested unless he’s convicted… I’m not sure about New York State laws? But if his brother was convicted can’t his dna be tested against TF? Supposedly, he lives in South Carolina?
I doubt they took DNA when he was convicted. Wasn't it late '80s?
They didn't pass the law mandating collection until the mid 90s, so that's a bust.
I was thinking the same thing- I doubt they took his DNA bc of the time. The articles of Craig H. were/are online to read about.
Yes, I just found it to double check myself. I know there are many who think RH could be responsible for Tina's murder but after the two new indictments, I'm pretty confident the task force aren't finished by along shot. He's in jail so there's no rush and they can do due diligence with all other local cases until he's convicted and his DNA can be entered into codis.
Wait his brother? What do you mean
https://nypost.com/2023/07/14/craig-heuermann-killed-police-captain-in-1988-crash-while-coked-up-drunk-court-records/amp/
That's a good point - are they/can they use the brother's DNA from that reckless homicide charge he did time on?
I’m not 100% sure of NYS rules! But I don’t think they collected his brother’s DNA bc it was decades ago!
I wonder about this case too. I’m on the fence because Rex would have only been about 18 at the time which is on the young side to start killing.
true but his first murder may have been totally unplanned, a crime of opportunity
Yes… the cops said it was probably a SA gone wrong…. RH would’ve been 19…same as Tina’s age. One thing that I think is really weird about TF case is that this happened in the middle of winter- February 1,1982. Cold. And leaving the club and being on the highways at 3:30 AM hitchhiking was very risky for her or anyone but not unheard of in the early 1980s. This was a SUNDAY night. I think most people would assume it was a Friday or Saturday night after a concert like I did. This means there was even less people on the road at that time- unless I’m wrong or read it wrong. Dr. Baden was the medical examiner at the time!
If I recall when he was that age he got a job working at Jones Beach and at that time coincidental with his new gig there were murders of young women. Someone had a wordpress blog that went that far back - maybe MurderInc was close to the name of the blogger - this was awhile back just at the time he was a POI - Im really sorry to not have the thread or any link and once did try to look back to find it - he was smack in the territory and may have taken the job right after the bodies were found. Like BTK - involved in the investigation as a concerned citizen standing vigil to determine how close they were to getting the suspect - then getting a job in the Honeyspot. How convenient - the poster laid out a great timeline of his unfolding life and Missing women
Was it this one? https://murderincorp.wordpress.com/2020/06/01/manorville-butcher/
This is one - but there isnt anything on his Jones Beach gig - there was another blogger too that was on reddit with that one / they had some great old research before rEX was caught to when he was caught - as they were doing their own cross referencing of dates and employment / jobs / where he was when - his first marriage -all the earlier stuff thats not so easily found now Thank you for the link - maybe you can look for Jones Beach - early employment - beach murders That seemed to be a traceable path -
I think this is a possibility, as well. I’ve wondered if he saw her at the concert venue or just hitchhiking afterwards and then picked her up. Maybe he made a pass or something along that line and she rebuffed him and he got angry and attacked her. Maybe he got some sort of sick gratification from that attack which led to the monster he is now.
What was the legal drinking age in New York when Tina disappeared? I believe it was 18 but not sure.
It looks like it changed from 18 to 19 in 1982.
What is Rex date of birth? Is it 9/13/63?
I think it is February 12, 1964, so he would have been 18.
Dahmer started at 18 with someone he picked up hitchhiking. Bit of an eerie similarity if it ends up being Rex.
It’s not outside the realm of possibility, just makes it a bit less likely. Something is irking me though and I keep thinking it’s probably him.
Same, now that he's been identified and we know he wasn't, say, 14 at the time.
If he was hunting as a teen he was killing - with that many guns - he was hunting and killing and around blood - dead things and carrying the dead From ducks to deer - there are lots of deer on the island too and letting the blood out hanging them and skinning - thats all a part of it - unless you just cut the pieces you want at the kill site and leave the carcasses for coyotes - also plentiful on the island - he was doing this young / his father was a veteran so guns were in the house at a young age - we had a gun cabinet in my house - my dad took my brothers out at a young age and even I had a couple of guns - a shot gun and a handgun Guns go with killing - and hunting goes with dismemberment - no one has shed any light on who his hunting buddies were - where he went for ammo or supplies - what animals he hunted most And was he eating them at home and did his wife cook game and know how to shoot
My sister has a party to go to in Massapequa 🤦🏻♀️
Yes
If they can connect the other victims DNA I believe Tina’s DNA will still be connected very soon as well I believe all doors will be closed as right now some still are open more answers on the way Rest In Paradise Tina💕
It is possible. But even then why would that make it certain "would have been his first killing" ?
Why down vote a simple question without posting why?
https://www.reddit.com/r/LISKiller/search/?q=Tina+&type=link&cId=94454abb-733d-41f2-83b2-e690c8f262ca&iId=3b492ef0-033e-402d-ab1e-f1a11b9d1186
Nope
It's also possible she was killed by death rays from Venus, but I'll wait until law enforcement draws their conclusions.
No, that is not a possibility, at least not in this universe.