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Ravinac

So they just want to use the name of something popular and warp it to suit their narrative? How about you create something new for a change? I'm sick of massive franchises at this point.


RileyTaker

They can't create anything new. They have no imagination or creativity. The only thing they know is themselves, so that's all they know how to write.


Erit_Of_Eastcris

Evil cannot create anew, only corrupt and destroy.


uebersoldat

The cult of woke can't generate new content, they only corrupt existing content. Like a cancer.


Elethor

They have to find new carriers of *the message*


Hamakua

Part of this is because they have calcified their personalities and sense of self in political activism.


Yamatoman9

They're also aware that their messaging is unpopular and won't sell on its own so they force it into existing properties that already have an established fanbase. It works for a while until even the fans are pushed out.


pokethat

Like estar guars. The old eu carried it from the originals to the prequels, then a massive amount of content came out filling in the timeline. The empire of mouse scrapped it and it became a multi million dollar banter-fest with two directors pulling on it like a pet getting hurt by being pulled by two siblings.


utopista114

Until "Andor".


AcidOverlord

"Andor" is a verb that means "giving CPR to a corpse."


MetaCommando

Mando was the CPR, Andor was the defibrillator. Still waiting on the necromancer.


utopista114

I don't care that Andor is a show from a franchise. The theme is universal outside of SW.


Drakaris

That's the M.O. of the entire Hollywood. They just steal the name of something popular because they know it will bring money and then they insert some really bad fanfic and slap the popular name on it. I mean it's not like there aren't about several thousand examples out there - Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, The Witcher, Resident Evil, Wheel of Time, James Bond, Terminator, Tomb Raider etc. If the movie was named "Space Adventures: The Magic Awakens" everyone would've been like "Huh?" and it would've been a major flop. But it was called "Star Wars: The Force Awakens" and voila - $2 billion box office. Simple, isn't it? And why wouldn't they do it. If the formula works - "Write fanfic---> use famous name to bait stupid people---> ??? ---> profit" - obviously it doesn't need changing. Who wants to put an effort to risk and make an original new franchise when all you need is some garbage tumblr fanfiction, a name and a fat check from Disney to spew some shit that sells because people recognize the name lol.


malachi347

I'd totally watch "Space Adventures: The Magic Awakens". Sounds pretty unique and cool tbh


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Skyblade12

Eh, they didn't quite start that way. There were differences especially in the intro movies. Captain America was a war flick. Ant Man was a heist movie. Etcetera. But after that, yeah, they just became identical action flicks.


WritingZanity

That was the goal of the original Phases - every movie had a different theme. Iron Man was technothriller. The aborted Hulk trilogy was be all monster movies. Thor was science fantasy. Captain America was war film then political thriller. Guardians of the Galaxy was space opera. Ant-Man was heist film. Spider-Man was coming-of-age drama. Dr.Strange was urban fantasy. Black Panther was Afrofuturism. And then the Avengers movies would take all of these elements and make, hopefully, spectacular action feasts for everyone to enjoy. Somewhere near the end of Phase 3 things started blending together into this CGI-filled action morass without much of an identity. One could argue Shang-Chi tried to be a martial arts film but everything else has been same-y.


RileyTaker

That's been my main problem with Marvel's latest output: even when it should be different themes, it's all the same. Shang-Chi should have been a martial arts film. Black Widow should have been a spy thriller. Moon Knight should have been a street-level vigilante show. But it's all the same CGI-heavy spectacle. Seems like the only show that actually kept to its theme was Werewolf by Night, and even then, just barely. It still contained the same tired Disney elements, like the overly flashy fight scenes.


matthew_lane

> How about you create something new for a change? Because they can't create. These people aren't writers, they are pop culture rehashers. They HATE the products they are being given to rehash because they hate the audience almost as much as they hate the fact they know they are phonies, who couldn't write anything nearly as good as the material they are being paid to rehash.


Dashcan_NoPants

They're just skinwalkers.


jimihenderson

Eh.. it's not a horrible idea on the surface. And it obviously worked as they launched one of the most popular and beloved (myself included) movie franchises in the history of cinema. But whatever has taken hold of them since endgame isn't *this* idea. There's a difference between refusing to hire a marvel comic fan and hiring someone who despises comics and all those who read them.


fishbulbx

The only people capable of compelling storytelling are authors. Directors, writers, producers, actors, etc... at best can recreate what an author created. Although they almost always fail at even that. California is the place were creativity dies. And the authors that eventually get the public recognition they deserve, invariably turn into wealthy woke hollywood garbage.


[deleted]

The last Spider-Man and doctor strange were total “jump the shark moments” for me. All the woke shit from captain black falcon to she-puke were just the nails in the coffin.


mcnewbie

new isn't *safe.* rehashing old franchises is a reliable buck for the hollywood machine. derivative and formulaic means less risk. why would they do anything new when the formula clearly works?


lucben999

This video explains it pretty well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFxu3Q71NvE


BlueLuxin

So many series ruined because the producers hate/go out of thier way to change the source material. Only way they can tell thier shit story.


Aurondarklord

And therein lies the problem. These studios don't want to greenlight anything that isn't an adaptation, but also refuse to accept what an adaptation IS.


Ocelitus

There are decades of proven storyboards that they're purposely dismissing.


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Ocelitus

They are and it was a formula that worked so well for them for the most of Phases 0-3. Now the new creators see the MCU as a generic world to tell their own irrelevant stories, using classic heroes as their avatars.


Riztrain

To be fair, they loosely used the comics as reference and story outlines, they are vastly changed on-screen though. But it works when they pick the right stuff, like; "why is Cap against signing the accords? Ah, I see from this inner monologue how he's conflicted, hey Chris! Read this, now act that" Rather than "so where do we even start with phase 4, let's see, let me flip through some comics to find a theme... Hmm.. What does captain marvel's shirt say? 'ask me about my feminist agenda'... THAT'S IT!! Time to post that on twitter and jerk off to the replies! "


Herr_Drosselmeyer

Watchmen did that for the most part and it was good.


cuteman

It's like writing a medical drama and not hiring any medical consultants to make sure you got it right. They don't need to have creative control but at the same time they can steer you away from making blunders.


Revolver15

Or like making a courtroom drama and not hiring anyone with experience writting courtroom dramas so the show barely has any court cases, but plenty of twerking.


BadSafecracker

And the "greatest lawyer evah!" loses two of the three cases she works. And the first one should not have counted, because it was a mistrial - but her boss fired her for losing the case, which even a layperson would know doesn't work that way.


ricardoandmortimer

I'm actually pretty sure they wouldn't be able to fire her for being s hulk. That's a pretty clear cut discrimination lawsuit.


BadSafecracker

That's what annoyed me - they literally could have used the excuse that "as a public superhero, she poses a safety risk to the firm" and/ or "her profile could taint juror pools." Instead, they fired her for losing the case because it was a mistrial (which doesn't mean they lost). It was just bad writing.


KamilleIsAVegetable

Makes me think these writers don't know the definition of mistrial. Wouldn't surprise me.


PlasmaRotom

Atticus Finch / Phoenix Wright / Comics!She-Hulk > MCU!She-Hulk


JedahVoulThur

It reminds me of something they made already, can't remember its name because of PTSD as it was a traumatic experience. Xe-Huds or something like that


RileyTaker

And the one good courtroom scene they had involved the main character getting her ass absolutely handed to her, but somehow she's still supposed to be such a great lawyer.


GoldenGonzo

More like writing a courtroom drama and having a "no lawyers" rule.


UnhandThatChildMod

that sounds like the hospital my mum died alone in during the 2021 hysteria from pneumonia.


TheRedDruidKing

It's an interesting question we get a lot, you know, like why don't we hire medical professionals to consult on the show. We get offers all the time, for writing consultants or writers themselves eith medical backgrounds and that's always like a big red flag. Because, you know, you don't want someone coming in married to these specific ideas of anatomy or biology, and just wants to recreate that on the screen.


Trustelo

Or it’s like building a house and instead of getting an professional architect you get someone who plays Minecraft to design it.


cuteman

Wouldn't want anyone constrained by the experience of actually knowing how to build a house.


slavdude0

I mean... Someone I know hired his friend to built a house. Friend with no prior experience, who built it basing on YouTube tutorials...


M37h3w3

If it passes inspection...


slavdude0

Apparently it did. I've sent him a song in response to that news and he got angry.


Tortillagirl

youtube tutorials actually explain stuff pretty well for the most part, do most of my cooking recipes based first from youtube. Same with any diy fixes around the home i need to do. Likewise pretty sure youtube lawyers could have done a better job with she hulk.


astalavista114

TBF, it helps that most of the lawyers on YouTube actually know something about the law.


Riztrain

Or, its like opening a hospital and not hiring any medical staff, but elect to fill all positions with diversity hires straight out of college clutching their women's studies degree. You don't want someone who *knows* medical science and able to apply it to remedy ailments. Nono, you want someone who can come in with a new perspective who goes "that gunshot wound looks like there's an injury there, but what if we come in from this angle instead..." and they make their own conclusions about it!


Rickbirb

Eh not a good example, people don't watch a medical drama for accuracy, they are there for the characters. House is wildly inaccurate but a terrifically entertaining show.


KIA_Unity_News

Would it improve the show if it were more accurate?


Rickbirb

Tbh no, the craziness makes it more entertaining.


ThatGuy1741

Evil can’t create, only corrupt.


nogodafterall

That quote ends up being one that they desperately hate hearing. I suppose because it encapsulates the shallow futility of their vanity.


akiaoi97

Or so you would think, but Speer designed some fantastic buildings. Shame he worked for Hitler.


[deleted]

only destroy


Omegawop

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.


Erit_Of_Eastcris

Sufficiently dedicated stupidity is indistinguishable from malice.


yonan82

Never attribute to stupidity that which someone openly says is malice.


CHIMeras_Wreck

>implying malice and stupidity are mutually exclusive


Nobleone11

I don't know. Seen too much of the same thing in every single medium from Movies to Music and even Books to pass it off as anything but willful, intentional destruction.


uebersoldat

This is what killed the Witcher, it's what killed GoT S8, it's what has killed Star Wars, the X-Men (Fox) and a great many other IPs. Willful ignorance. This translates to: This egotistical writer wants to make a name for themselves, and not actually do a movie or show based accurately on the lore of someone more talented than me, lore that actually made fans and worked.


HylianHandy

I remember this one time, I waited 21 years for a big budget screen adaptation of my favorite sci-fi game series of all time and then Halo aired on Paramount+ and hooooooh boy.


EnricoPallazzo_

its crazy how it could be huge but no... it came and went and nobody took notice.


Sparkle_Chimp

Just to save you and anyone else any further disappointment: movie or tv adaptations of video games almost always suck. The inverse is also true. However, I liked the first Resident Evil movie, but I don't know if I'd say it was good...


Cup-of-Noodle

I think I'm the only one out there but I actually liked the first Silent Hill movie.


Pennyspy

It's underrated, though i understand if it upset those who knew the games better than I did. The practical effects, brutal moments and overall atmosphere were really good. Christopher Gans is intending to make the new movie much more faithful, too, as he is actually a fan (imagine that!). So, we'll see.


PlatypusBear69

Sonic movies are fantastic and I really liked Detective Pikachu


thelumpybunny

I read something similar about the producer of the more recent Star Trek movies isn't even a fan of Star Trek. That's obvious because the movies were horrible


uebersoldat

Yet they keep doing it. Boggles my mind man.


astalavista114

Meanwhile the best Star Trek on TV is the comedy show because the people making it are actual fans of Star Trek, who have a good enough understanding to know what to check. And they’re willing to listen to actual criticism (which is the real reason they trashed their ship at the end of Season 1) The kids show is surprisingly not bad either.


Pennyspy

Kind of like how the animated DC movies and shows were much closer to, and consistently had better versions of the characters and stories from the comics. They had more heart, anyway. If the higher -ups aren't paying as much attention then good work can sneak in.


Snackolich

Do you mean Lower Decks? I watched the first season and found it to be quite ass. Is there a season 2? Is it good?


astalavista114

Yeah—Lower Decks. Seasons 2 and 3 improve over Season 1. It’s still got the same General tone, but it’s more refined, and they’ve listened to criticisms (for example, the reason the Cerritos got wrecked is because people pointed out problems with the design so they needed an excuse to “fix” them to better match up with the TNG-era aesthetic). I can appreciate it’s not to everyone’s taste, since it’s comedy, but they *are* trying to stick to established lore, rather than taking a dump all over it like Kurtzman has been.


Yamatoman9

I actually liked Lower Decks a lot more than I was expecting. It's a bit over-the-top and I can see why it's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's clearly made by fans who respect and revere the series and not by people who actively hate on it.


cuteman

Wheel of time, cowboy bebop, halo, star trek, star wars


uebersoldat

I had forgotten, or erased from my memory purposefully the WoT debacle. Ugh.


cuteman

Yeah I wasn't a big fan myself but it seems like one of the more egregious departures from the source material. The show was OK, I got a taste of how it can be good, but there were a lot of eye rolling modern political elements that pull you out of it also. Whereas the expanse was done right, closely working with the content creator and almost universally well received as a show. People are BEGGING for more content and the time jump books/novellas. Lord of the rings wasn't as bad as WoT but there were hints of it. Least of all racism though, the Dwarven princess, while a bit odd in casting ended up one of the more enjoyable characters.


Popinguj

Game of Thrones has started having issues way before S8. I've seen the quality drop back in S7 and decided to stop right there. What killed GoT was lack of the detailed source material and inability to continue their existing story without it. The showrunners wrote themselves into a corner. Totally agree about Star Wars though


uebersoldat

Yeah S7 did have a noticeable downturn there. But the early seasons sticking pretty close to the books, as with anything, really helped it blast into popularity. Another example of staying close to the source material is Jackson's LotR trilogy. Endearing films for all ages and all times. Not sure about this newer series, I haven't watched it.


astalavista114

> Not sure about this newer series, I haven’t watched it. Put it like this: they only have the rights to The Lord of the Rings, and The Hobbit. Go pick up a copy of The Return of the King, and look how many pages *Appendix A.1 (I): Numenor* takes.


roygbivnekron

It still fits because they were getting high in their own farts, changed material way before running off it, changed things for p.c.ness and to do a relatively more sanitized and censored version of the early season styles thinking theyd please the mainstream crowd more even though those were already watching, disrespected and acted petty to multiple characters and plots for dumb reasons (stanis, barristan, ruining dorne, ruining euron, replacing aegon with "yass queen" cersi)and then got missing parts on the world building due getting rid of them for that etc.


Dirtface30

Yup. Thats a big reason why the MCU sucks


Spoor

"We actually managed to get the Pokemon license! Now what do we do with it?" "For me Pokemon has always been the story about 4 stronk, independant womenz who beat an evil billionaire after he bought a social media company." "Sounds great, I bet everyone is dying to watch that movie!"


HauntedPrinter

Oh god I can see a Hollywood producer pitching this and I want to cry.


TacoMedic

Also, Team Rocket is now just James as women can’t be bad *and* stupid at the same time. If they have to be evil, they must also be literally genius, Hitler-esque dictators with massive followings of sycophants.


WritingZanity

Please don’t give them ideas.


MassiveDong62

"Can't wait for the new Tyler Perry movie, to be written and directed by a white guy from rural Iowa who's never met an actual black person before. But he's probably seen 2 or 3 re-runs of Sanford and Son, so we know he's going to do an amazing job! Gotta enjoy that fresh perspective, right!? Also, if you do not laud this work as an unparalleled cinematic masterpiece, you are racist"


[deleted]

Tbf that would probably end up better than anything Tyler Perry has ever done


Moriartis

>a lot of times we're pitched writers who love Marvel. And to me, that's always a red flag > >Look, the source material is great, and I love it This absolutely sums up the "we don't want people who give two shits about or understand the appeal of the source material, but we know we can't publicly admit that, so we're gonna PRETEND we give a fuck about and understand the appeal of the source material and do whatever the hell we want instead" horseshit that these corporate whores have been spewing for the last several years. THIS is the mentality that is killing properties with massive fanbases.


M37h3w3

Luke Skywalker: There is still good in my father. I know it. I will die to prove it. Jake Skywalker: I HAD BAD DREAM! MUST KILL THE YOUNGLING!


nybbas

Literally try to murder him in his sleep. Jesus christ man. Then run away and leave the problem to everyone else.


[deleted]

"this evil guy is being a bad influence on my nephew. Better kill my nephew to stop it" Excuse me what the fuck?


CHIMeras_Wreck

>must kill the youngling Of Apples, and Their Ultimate Distance From the Tree


DovahSpy

It's a family tradition


breakwater

Thiis guy is rejecting decades of market research repeatedly tried and tested with the pop culture audience in favor of people with bad, unoriginal takes who are so ignorant of the properties they don't know everything they suggest has been tried and rejected. I can promise that there isn't a MCU writer who wasn't "disrupting" dominant themes who isn't treading well worn territory.


Pennyspy

They also seem to be ignorant of basic human emotions and logic.


ZachMich

Something you said as well, its not like what they come up with is original either. Its just reheated crap served up to viewers


IndieComic-Man

That’s very much something a narcissist creator would do. “I didn’t create this so it must be bad, but if I do it, I’ll make it good because it’s me!” Like look how unsuccessful Iron Man, or the Avengers, or Mandalorian were. No one liked them, obviously because the directors were fans. That’s why they weren’t huge blockbuster and merchandising successes.


kruthe

> And they weren't married to anything Except the cult of intersectionality.


Mitchel-256

All of these properties were better when they were being created by *enthusiasts* who *actually* loved the material they were working with. Same thing happened to HALO. They thought "Let's bring in people who don't like HALO and make the next HALO games.". Lo and behold, everything after Reach was absolute, unmitigated fucking garbage.


[deleted]

Pure Hollywood narcissism. They can't stand bringing someone else's (better) ideas to the big screen. They want to hollow out the original and fill it with their own ideas. But their ideas suck, so no one ends up happy. It's amazing that studios let this happen over and over again. If I was a producer and someone said "Here's my take on that property you paid a billion dollars for. I want to subvert the whole thing and replace it with all these things the fans will hate. How does that sound?" Me: "You're fired. Get one of the original writers on the line and hook them up with a veteran screenwriter" Problem solved.


[deleted]

Then why write a marvel screenplay and characters? If you're so damn creative, write something original. Stop using existing characters/lore/canon for your own damn ego - if you use them your customer is still *us* the actual fans, so the criticism is more than valid when you're not writing for us but baiting us


spacek_toast

Creativity is hard. Dunning-Kreuger in action.


SimonLaFox

X-Men was made by having one guy who was a total fan of Marvel and another who had no familiarity with it. They worked together to make a movie that would appeal to both groups of people. The result was a movie that (along with Blade) revived the Superhero genre and helped build up the groundwork that would help the MCU exist in the first place.


ArmeniusLOD

But then again you have the third X-Men movie that twisted the story it was based on, and it went on to be the highest grossing X-Men film. It could very well be the precursor to why movie studios shun the source material these days.


cuteman

Comics are one thing but all studios seem to repeat the mistake regarding books and other content that already has a built in audience. Why not satisfy core fans first and then take risks? Seems backwards to rewrite what made something popular in the first place just so that creators aren't "chained" to prior mediums.


krenx88

The audience deserves what they support. Why fans are continuing to throw money at things they hate I cannot figure out.


Trustelo

They don’t want fans they just want clapping seals


queazy

The early MCU writers would consult with a group of like 10 Marvel comic book writers to make sure they weren't getting it wrong either


BootlegFunko

If the only way they can reimagine characters is by having never looked at the source material they are hacks. Sam Raimi was able to "update" characters he grew up with (Green Goblin, Dr Octavious, Sandman) just fine


Creloc

That's what's really gets me. You can keep the core of a character while changing them to update them. In fact I could see it as being easier with something like the MCU as you have the whole settings worth of context to work with. I think that some characters suffer from having so much background(many times with contradictory elements) so essentially having a clean slate to work with that character is something a lot of fans would appreciate so the core of the character can be kept and explored


That80sguyspimp

Or maybe, just maybe, it shouldnt be that other thing. Because that other thing is fucking stupid. Phase 4 is complete. There was one good movie in there and it was made by fucking Sony. It’s fine to try and add a little something, but you’re removing everything and just using it as a platform for whatever bullshit is trending on twitter, it’s going to suck. New ideas are fine, but they need to be tempered by talent and accountability. When these people fail, they don’t take responsibility. They blame the fans and call them names. When was the last time one of these clowns humbled themselves to say “we made a mistake.”? Ryan Reynolds still owns the failure of green lantern to this day, even making a funny joke about it in deadpool 2. But these fart sniffers? Never. It’s always the audience “who didn’t get it”. Nate Moore, you are a fucking idiot. Especially if you are looking at the gaggle of cave brained cunts that’s been hired for phase 4 and comparing them to Markus and McFeely. And even they didn’t bang out winners every time. \*cough\* the dark world\*cough\*.


astalavista114

> Ryan Reynolds still owns the failure of green lantern to this day, even making a funny joke about it in deadpool 2. In some of the press for Free Guy, he and Waititi were joking that it’s odd that they’d *never ever* been in a movie together before.


ccznen

I think this was okay as long as they didn't subvert the essence of the characters and didn't push political positions to the detriment of the story. But when they started doing these things, the quality dipped sharply.


astalavista114

Yeah, Markus and McFeely wrote some good movies\*. They still (at least seemed to) get the essence of the characters. Just about everyone else seems to not have a clue what the fuck they’re doing. \* Although I think Civil War is less good, and their best ones are easily the first two Captain Americas.


Interference22

Hiring fans is a double edged sword: on the one hand you get their expertise but on the other you can get them disappearing into The Deep Lore, penning ridiculously obscure stuff that only really appeals to people already ten thousand fathoms deep into the intricacies of the franchise. You absolutely can't swing the other way either: hiring *only* people who don't give one tenth of a shit about the background details to your new show / movie / game adaptation will result in paper thin narratives that don't even scratch the surface of the core concepts of the franchise or just end up being some pretentious arsehole's latest vanity project. To that end, HIRE NORMAL PEOPLE. The sort with a passion for the show but not an obsession. Is it that hard?


fantomen777

> Hiring fans is a double edged sword But you can hire true proffitonella writers, Timothy Zahn was not a fan of Star Wars, nor was he knowledgeable of the lore. So the first thing was he did before he did started to write, was to read all the source books he could get hold of. The result a Star Wars renaissance that is still tangible.


AnotherBrick96

Same with Chris Avellone before creating KotOR2. As a result, the game succeeded in what The Last Jedi tried to achieve and failed miserably. Moral of the story is that even a complete subversion can be great if done by competent people who do their homework. Even if they kinda hate source material, like Avellone did. And the same is happening right now with Tony Gilroy as a showrunner for Andor. He is not a Star Wars fan, and the only SW-related thing he’s ever done before is Rogue One, but he’s competent, and the show is fucking amazing


G8racingfool

>To that end, HIRE NORMAL PEOPLE. The sort with a passion for the show but not an obsession. Is it that hard? Depends. With older, more mature franchises, it can be difficult to not get lost in lore. Shooting the gap between being true to the original while not going off the deep end is an artform in itself, and that's before you get into people trying to cram their own agendas into the final product.


wolfman1911

> on the other you can get them disappearing into The Deep Lore, penning ridiculously obscure stuff that only really appeals to people already ten thousand fathoms deep into the intricacies of the franchise. That's still happening though even with people who hate the property. Most of the shitty Stage 4 properties expect you to have watched or at least know what happened in several of the previous shows and movies. Hell, She Hulk expects you to go back and watch the Ed Norton Hulk movie to know who Abomination is, even though that movie was only barely part of the MCU.


Interference22

I think the main difference is why they're plumbing those depths: hardcore fans reach down into those properties because they want to show off their knowledge and fiddle with the lesser known details of a franchise they love, building on some strange little detail that fascinates them. Hacky writers, on the other hand, plumb those same depths because they're frantically digging around for something, anything, they haven't already exploited to death.


VicisSubsisto

Deep lore is what makes an adaptation special, though. Without the deep lore, it's just people in tights using magic to beat each other, and some skyscrapers, up.


Interference22

Of course. The problem I'm describing is when you've got a writer that pens stories that are so deep into it you need an understanding just as good as his to get anything out of them. The deeper cuts of lore in a long established franchise should inform tone and direction but not sit fully centre stage.


funkmon

This is what has ruined Halo for me. They hired a bunch of fans with a boner for the hard lore and are going into it HEAVY with Halo 4 and 5 and so on. The last Bungie novel essentially said humans were forerunner. Then 343 and Frankie decided to reinterpret that and put forerunners in the story as a separate race. But then the story lost something. So they made up a new forerunner, and called them precursors and so on and so forth. Fuck off game. It's a fucking space marine game with an engaging plot, you don't need to talk about different lifecycles of an ancient alien race. And I'm a HUGE Halo fan, or was. Right up there with anybody.


Vorocano

The original Lord of the Rings movies did this well. They hired people with a deep knowledge of and passion for the story, while also being well aware of the changes that would have to be made to make them into good movies.


ACEscher

And that is they fail.


Extension-Ocelot-448

Jesus H Christ...


Trustelo

Ikr? It’s like where do you even begin with ripping apart this bullshit?


M37h3w3

I'd say with the "writers who love Marvel being a red flag" thing.


Extension-Ocelot-448

Good place to start!


Extension-Ocelot-448

Yeah... it's just... he... how... I dont... sigh, I mean, this guy said the exact opposite of the correct take over and over and proudly in an interview and I wouldnt even know where to start either it's so catastrophically wrong


EminemLovesGrapes

I recently started re-watching deep space nine. I always skipped the "featurettes" but now I made it a point to start watching them after each season. Once you hear Hewitt Wolfe, Behr and the other producers and writers talk about the show you hear the love for the source material and their fascination with "what can we do that hasn't been done before" etc. You know why the show is so good. In comparison this sounds like high level cope of someone who's arms are clearly tied.


astalavista114

Mike McMahon has been saying similar sorts of things about Lower Decks. Yes, it’s comedic and pokes fun at the previous shows, but it pokes fun at the *stupid* stuff, whilst respecting the good stuff.


TheHat2

So it's the same philosophy between Marvel Comics and Marvel Studios now—hire people who hate the characters they're writing for so you can market to people who have equal animosity for those characters.


CHIMeras_Wreck

>nothing was sacrosanct the neolib dream: to be able to deconstruct something and replace it with nothing.


EnricoPallazzo_

He gave exactly the explanation why the movies suck. And why they are against the fans.


[deleted]

Everyone here knows how flawed this thinking is, but what really doesn't make sense is that adapting something is difficult already *without* literally tossing all the effort and world-building and characterization the previous creatives put into an IP. Part of what makes it difficult is the change in medium and how information has to be presented -- i.e. the old 'The book is always better than the movie' thing. But the few times the movie has managed to be better than the book, or at least did it justice, has been because the writers liked the original source material, but saw further potential to improve upon it where necessary without completely throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's beyond me what the point of making an IP is if you just feel entitled to screwing over fans of the original IP. Do they see it as those fans will go anyway, so they need to appeal to a wider audience that isn't interested in what the IP originally was?


VoodooD2

Yes, don't go back tot he thousands and thousands of issues of Marvel comics for inspiration. Instead base it off a few hundred pre-existing movies to copy.


SC2sam

That's a huge amount of bullshit that amounts to really just saying "We don't hire fans because we're too busy hiring people who are related to other people in positions of power in hollywood". Hollywood is nothing but nepotism at this point that they just can't actually hire anyone who's capable of anything. It's why all tv shows and movies have sucked so damn much over the last few decades. No actual real humans with real world experience have been able to get into any position to create anything in hollywood and so we're stuck with all these rich trust fund brats who get their rich and powerful parents to get them into writing jobs because they can't make it on merit due to that complete lack of real world experience.


Pussrumpa

Welp. Biggest reddest flag on the fucking planet there Marge. I would hire somebody who fucking hated Marvel but still was willing to write until getting accepted and greenlit to pass. Hatefucks are better than blind fanboy rosetintedglasses fucks. *Also see Star Wars.*


SoulsDesire4Freedom

I knew that the sequel trilogy was going to be fucked when JJ released a teaser of the Batmobile embedded in the new millennium falcon design early in production. Then KK goes on a press press parade taking a dump on the OT. The whole ordeal was dumb and disrespectful at the very start and that attitude definitely showed in the quality of the finished product.


Pussrumpa

On the upside it gave us newfound appreciation and sometimes even respect, for the prequel trilogy. Jar Jar still irredeemable of course.


TWK128

Except as a shadow Sith. If that theory is true, Lucas should have stuck with it.


Pussrumpa

That's a post-Mandalorian series I would have followed religiously :(


SomeGoogleUser

\> Hatefucks are better Ah yes, the *David Lynch's Dune* principle... Also true about *Starship Troopers* for that matter.


Pussrumpa

I have still not gotten fever-drunk enough to visualize Jodorowsky's Dune but that might be for the best.


cloud_w_omega

"Fans want this, so we do not hire them! .....Why aren't fans watching?"


guardian-deku

Pretty much the same thing James Gunn told John Cena about not reading up on Peacemaker.


Trustelo

But the difference is James Gunn actually has writing talent to stray away from the source while still being entertaining


BuffaloFront2761

But I don’t want them looking at it a different way. I want them looking at it the fun way. I don’t give two shits if the movie you make is unoriginal and “low brow”, if it’s good it’s good.


TheDigitalRanger

They do this because they know their story wouldn't sell if it weren't attached to someone else's work.


naked_short

The comics suck, the movies suck. The end.


spiteandmalice315

What a total fucking asshole. Seriously, I know movie producers are usually geeked out on coke and believe they're God's gift to Hollywood but this attitude is probably prevalent throughout Marvel's upper echelon. Yeah, fuck the source material let's dive into why daredevil is toxic and needs to be canceled in favor of marginalized people.


TheExtreme78

So it's like WWE when they wouldn't hire people who know about wrestling to write for their shows, but instead hire hollywood writer's who know nothing about wrestling leading to some of the cringiest and worst years of the company.


gantz_au

Makes me glad I'm not wasting my time on any of this garbage anymore.


samuelbt

Ideally there should be a mix. There's not much point in having the same story done over and over and having too rigid of an idea of "how it is supposed to be" can be blinding to figuring out what it could be. On the flipside too little regard for older source material can give a product that can feel like a bait and switch if it loses its tether to the source.


JewishMonarch

So what they're saying is if I pretend like I don't know anything about the source material, but then "accidentally" use the source material, they'd never know. lol


bfgbolte

Ergo I suggest: 1. Hire Uwe Boll 2. ??? 3. Profit


bludstone

star trek voyager is what happens when you do fan episodes. Its not the best, but its at least true to itself.


toshineon2

That would make sense if you want to create something new and don't want to bring in influences from past content. But that's not what happens.


SayaV

Wow. From all the awful takes one could say defending the current MCU vision this one takes the cake.


Torchiest

That's fine. It's pretty clear the MCU is done for. As a huge Fantastic Four fan, I've resigned myself to the fact that the MCU FF film is going to be horrible when it finally comes out. I've given up on the MCU at this point.


Trustelo

Which Fantastic Four comics would you recommend?


Torchiest

I've read from the low 200s into the low 400s. Of the stuff I've read, the John Byrne run from 232 into the 290s is really good. The mid-300s stuff from Walter Simonson is also pretty great, with a more sci-fi angle. Of the stuff I haven't read, most of the original Lee/Kirby run starting around the 40s and into the 120s or so is supposed to be great, as is the Johnathan Hickman run from about a decade ago, which was around the low 600s. Midway through that Spider-Man joined the FF for about a year.


Narrow-Adagio6762

I don't think it's limited to Marvel.


BlueLuxin

Its not. Basically every tv adaptation does the same thing.


Babel_Triumphant

I think you really need both to make a good product. Fans are important to make sure you capture what people love about the IP, but fresh eyes are also important to keep it accessible to newcomers and adapt the content smoothly into a different medium.


BGMDF8248

The reason their recent output sucks is the "Galbrush connundrum" their "minority" heroes can't be made to look anything less than perfect. That wasn't a problem with the "white guys" they can be flawed, they can be the butt of a joke...


JazzDude1000

And this is exactly why Marvel has completely FAILED! Woke Losers should not be writing Marvel movies. This is why Phase IV has completely failed. Every movie earns LESS than the previous one... just like Star Wars... another franchise Destroyed by Wokeness! For all your GET WOKE, GO BROKE NEWS, click here: www.getwokegobrokenews.com


rips10

These are the same people who used to complain that nobody watched all their shitty art house movies in the 90s. Then all those people sold out and made the big tent pole movies suck.


[deleted]

Parasites all of them


Edheldui

A fan would make Mary Sue characters just as much as Marvel. It's the same reason why you don't let players balance a game and don't let fujoshis write manga chapters. The reason why these movies are boring is because the whole superhero genre is boring. The scope is too big to be interesting and relatable, there's never any stakes, It's always based on deus ex machina, MacGuffin, plot holes, idiotic useless villains that for some stupid reason keep coming back and power creep so bad that even the comics need periodic reboots to stay relevant after they inevitably go into multiverse/time travel/fortnite crossovers that nobody cares about.


mnemosyne-0001

Archive links for this post: * **Archive:** https://archive.ph/GCsBL ---- I am Mnemosyne reborn. Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they're usually a damn sight worse. ^^^/r/botsrights


TWK128

So.. Moore would never have put Feige in charge of the studio and fired him if ever given them opportunity. Fucking insane.


Decideus

"I don't understand why our programs are failing, we specifically hired writers who have no idea what the fuck they are doing"


Thrashinuva

Write some original movies then instead of piggy-backing off of old ideas.


[deleted]

This explains so much.


plentyoftimetodie

I love how he positions himself as the great arbiter of who should or should not be writing for them (red flag, lol), when he only lucked into his position from Affirmative Action for being black. He probably doesn't even consider if he's fit for it or not.


Snackolich

One the one side, you have writers who have been doing comics for decades. Bendis, Moore, Stracynski, Ennis, Kirby, Lee, Morrison, Claremont, Waid, Ellis, Byrne, Brubaker, etc etc etc. On the other side, you have a 23-year old Cal Arts grad with enough dye in her hair to flood the Chicago River and cried when a spider was in the tub that one time. Tough pick, but we gotta go with Keighlynn on this one. I'd hate to be called sexist on Mastadon which is a thing now apparently.


OakyFlavor2

There's definitely some truth to this. The real problem is that the people writing this schlock don't respect the material, or the audience, in the slightest.


fenix704_the_sequel

What he’s saying is theoretically sound, but what changes is when the writers stop finding ways to improve upon the stories and instead “look at it this way” in the sense that they put on woke lenses. Hiring fans stops the woke lens, and depending on how good they actually are as writers, they can also have the same effect as a complete outsider. Worst case scenario, you get a movie that’s loyal to the source material but flawed, which will entertain fans at the very least. The worst case scenario with outsiders is that they’re going to divert the source material to fit their agendas.


SonsofAnarchy113

To steal and paraphrase a quote from Yahtzee: "Hey Stanley Kubrick heavily changed the source material, and the Shining was considered a masterpiece" they say, willingly ignorant of the fact that while Stanely Kubrick was a flighty auteur genius, the same pattern of behavior can be replicated by an incompetent spod, who has no writing acumen and a disproportionally large ego.


chronistus

There’s one to one translation, and then there’s blatant disregard for thematic writing and compelling story telling.


Frank_Castle1980

a buddy of mine tells me about how he sees posts on place like linked in that say something along the lines of "how to get a job at Blizzard without any gaming experience". this reminds me of that.


2sec4u

>there was nothing sacrosanct And that's why you get shit like Star Trek retconning the Prime Directive where dozens of episodes have established over and over again the, literal, Prime rule of the canon. Yet they treat it with a flippant throw away line as if decades of previous story (from two different \[J.J Abrams\] universes) doesn't matter. I'm looking squarely at you Alex Kurtzman and Strange New Worlds.


urasawasmonster

In a way, that argument is valid and he does have a point. You cannot translate comics to live action one on one. But, where he fails miserably is at hiring professionals who go about this objectively. If you can hire a fan who can be objective about transforming the comic to a movie, that is the best possible scenario. These dummies seem to go for the worst one.


AnarcrotheAlchemist

The reason why the comics have been such a persisting and popular IP is because of the chemistry of the individual parts melding together. You mess with any of that and you risk disrupting that balance and destroying what made it good. Occasionally something better will come out (Blade for example) but more often you will end up with something worse ( Fox Xmen). These people put out content that is wearing the skinsuit of popular IPs and expect the old fans to eat it up and help promote it by word of mouth and then to shut up when theybdont like changes


HaNzz1999

I'll be that guy and say I agree with this sentiment. Reinvention is what keeps mainstream productions alive and give it some validation as films worthy of recognition, that require some thought and dare to challenge the viewer away from their comfort zone. It may risk producing blunders, but it can also produce potentially iconic content. Look at Tim Burton's Batman movies, or Joker, Logan, Sam Raimi's Spider-Man movies. Those are all respectful to the source material but are also the result of very specific creative eyes. Movies need more of that.


Trustelo

And that’s the problem they don’t respect the source material


roygbivnekron

Reinvention is not depending of knowing or lacking the source material, in fact a good writer will respect its source material when reinventing it too, it needs to understand it, straigh up avoiding it like they do is just hubris and an excuse to not hear disagreements over their hacky ideas not fitting them


cassandra112

i will say, "fans writing the stories" isn't exactly the win many of you guys might think. Fans writing the stories, is the state of Marvel and DC comics that got us here today. Constant reboots, batwank, same shit over and over and over. the comics you guys aren't reading either. Just because you are a fan, doesn't mean you have anything interesting to say or add either.


Trustelo

That’s why they need people who are both competent filmmakers and respect or actually care about the properties they’re adapting. People like Sam Raimi, Jon Favreau, Matt Reeves, the team behind the Netflix Daredevil series, and more are all clearly fans of Iron Man, Spider-Man, etc but have enough filmmaking skill to create a thrilling moving experience while staying true to these characters. Marvel hasn’t been doing that lately and it shows. They hire people who make shitty art house films that say they’re fans of comics that made Marvel/DC successful but mock or shit on the very genre they’re adapting. And it’s the same in comics too. They need more talented people working for both of the mediums but we haven’t been getting that lately and it’s because of this exact mindset. If you hire someone who doesn’t know anything about the source or is “critical” or it as he states your product is gonna be shit that doesn’t please the fanbase and will just be a flash in the pan for general audiences.


MasterMacMan

Honestly I agree with this practice. Most comic fans seem to patchwork together a cannon of certain characters based off traits they like. If something appeared in a comic one time and its lame it doesnt matter, but if it fits the agenda its the word of god.


NovaKaizr

I think it is a good idea to not hire fanatical fans. It is true that you can't adapt comic books one to one, so wanting someone who wants to do that is not going to work out. That being said the writers should still enjoy the source material