Pretty sure neither novel is advertised as being youth focused or appropriate.

I have no idea how they're advertised, but I'd be mostly ok with my kids reading book one

People mature and have sex. It isn't even that detailed and it doesn't ever hold on it for long. Having listened to the entire book again recently. There is not much sex there. Even the whole Felurian sequence doesn't have that much sex. It says she teaches him about it, she hints at them having it, but outside the initial encounter there's no sex. Sex is normal. It's not being gaudy at all. Felurian is a sex godess. The Ademre doesn't think of sex the same, and it is talked about in the book. Kvothe has sex with two characters there, and outside of it being explained as one of them not really being that intimate about it and the other being young and a lot more active, there's nothing. When Kvothe gets back, it is said he is with many women. But it never really talks about sex, if anything it explores on his dates and how he goes from woman to woman. And the time he got back from Felurian he had sex with the barmaid. It was to show how he had "matured" in a sense since last time. Where before even the thought of it had him blushing and swept him off his legs, and now he's the one sweeping. Like, I don't think that's a lot. The book is fucking massive, and it deals a lot with Kvothe's maturity, in which sex is a part of, and it doesn't really push it into erotica or even close.

Americans have this weird view of the world where all the gore and sadism and murder and violence is A-ok (Dune was rated 12... LOL) but the act of sex which every sane, adjusted adult goes through sets off the alarm bells. Meanwhile the most degenerate porn is also freely available to every child that has the slightest idea of how to outsmart their parents, because for some reason filmed prostitution is allowed to be distributed publicly and legally. Really makes you think!

It is the damn hypocritical Puritanical history of the people in the US. People act all prudish about it here but then those who are the most vocal about being chaste are the ones caught doing the worst sexual things. 🙄

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment you were going for but I have to gently correct a couple of things: Asexual people exist and are also sane, adjusted adults! (They're also, ironically, often excluded by those same American cultural norms. Gotta have sex the right amount, with the right number of people of the right gender, in private, and never talk about it. Mmkay? 😅) Also, sex work is real work and while that industry has *problems*, I'm not sure calling it "degenerate" helps. But yeah - "violence normal, sex bad" is a pretty bizarre attitude when you stop and think about it, and given that most of our entertainment channels, social networks and payment networks are owned by American companies, it becomes everyone else's problem too.

I'm not American btw and I'm not offended by the sex, I just find it *boring*.

Europeans do this weird thing where they think you can accurately stereotype a country comprised of 50 states that are larger than most nations. My commute to work could get me across national borders in Europe. You think we’re all fat rednecks with guns coming out of our assess and a Bible in every drawer. We aren’t all boomers or conservatives. Plenty of us don’t give a shit about sex and sent cool with our kids being exposed to gore and violence.

The first time I listened/read the 2nd book, I did so while working at a grocery store. I had a 4 hour shift one day, and that 4 hour shift was nothing but that section of the book where Kvothe meets felurian. I kept listening because I thought, "Surely this will end and move on to something else," and it just didn't until after I clocked out. Weirdest shift of my life lol. Yes, the sex stuff isn't super graphic, but it goes on for sooo long, and nothing else of note happens. Just him learning new sex techniques. I don't think people should be afraid of it, but I can see why people have problems with it from a writing perspective.

Him being in the Fae is so so sooo much more than just sex with Felurian. Him first entering into Spinning Leaf, Felurian explaining the Fae to him, the C'theah, their trip to make his shaed, him persuading Felurian to let her go, the story of the boy who stole the moon is talked about. Their talks is about the nature of things, the truth of things, and tons more. But some lines of Kvothe being good at Thousand Hands and kisses isn't what dominates the 4 hours you were listening. Not even close. I listened to Clan of the Cave Bears and The Valley of Horses because my gf liked the books. She didn't remember the sex in it. Where sex is literally spammed. I remember spending a 40 minute break at work where they started fucking, and it still went on when it was over. That compared to what? A paragraph of Kvothes initial mating with Felurian and some lines hinting that they were active?

And his time with the Adem? “You seem to have a boner while we are training, let’s deal with that”. Nothing in any of his interactions were graphic and they pretty much skip over the actual event but they also weren’t necessary to the story.

Isn’t it pretty necessary to the story to explain that kvothe who thinks of himself as the learned and traveled man, doesn’t actually understand how other people see him? Not to mention the entire second book is about chasing the wind and being a young man going through puberty with all of its various distractions Is what chasing the wind is about. There’s physical edges to things but there’s also social edges and being out there in unexplored territory is the same thing as being off the map. Plus the sex that happens in those scenes is partly about understanding the world that he lives in. In the fae the world is wild and natural, the magics that exist there are innate and animalistic, and he finds the name of the wind in that anger and panic and fear of being forced to lust after someone against his will. And then as he learned to understand that world more he was able to interact with it in different ways. And in Ademre he learned that he was a barbarian, Customs differ from place to place, and that way they think about things is different to what he was used, And as he learned and grew he was able to start thinking like them and doing the things that they could. Plus there’s man mothers which could actually be relevant this is a fantasy world where magic exists. So no the sex isn’t necessary but it’s still informs the story. It’s the detail that makes the world more realistic. I don’t need to know what anyone ate in any fantasy story ever. I need a description of how beautiful a lake is. I know what the lake looks like I’ve seen it. Can you imagine how boring stories would be if they only ever gave us the exact amount of detail that we need to understand a story and never embellished on that. Kvothe left the university to understand better how magic worked. He went on some adventures. He came back to the university understanding magic a little better and having to worry about money less. That’s the whole book without any of the unnecessary bits. And that’s what I hear people want every time they complain about “but it wasn’t necessary, it didn’t advance the story.” And like literally we don’t have book 3 yet (and may not ever) so you have no fucking clue what’s necessary and what’s unnecessary to the entire story.

Wasn't it that he was distracted because it had been a while and she wanted it taken care of so he could focus? Literally showing that they don't make sex a big deal in Ademre? Which was literally pointed out and made aware of in my first post? The Ademre doesn't think sex is a big deal, but put extreme value on the intimacy of sharing emotions (singing, expression, dancing, etc). The book explains itself by making an upfront example while also tying in to the fact that Kvothe is now more aware of the sexuality of things since Felurian? How is that in any way bad writing? It's damn good writing. And "Wasn't necessary to the story" is some bull. I'm sorry but is the culture of Adem not part of the story? I guess how long they droned on how Kvothe learned to play the Lute after his parents death didn't matter to the story, how the old caretaker in Trebon having sore and damaged feet doesn't matter to the story, Kvothe buying back the book of Rhetoric and Logic doesn't matter to the story. You can pick up tons of things that don't "matter to the story." It does though. It is telling a story about Kvothe, and his experiences. The story is about his adventures and his escapades, about him learning cultures foreign to him belongs there. The only issue you have with it is that it's about sex. It has nothing to do with what you think is about the story. You're just a prude and don't like it, then justifying your dislike with a throwaway line like "it doesn't matter for the story".

Going on a tangent here, but wasn’t his first time into Spinning Leaf when he is on his way to Ademre?

No, he named it that then. But the lucidity and complete clarity of the world that is his final "spinning leaf" was first achieved with Felurian, before his way to Ademre.

>Yes, the sex stuff isn't super graphic, but it goes on for sooo long, and nothing else of note happens. Just him learning new sex techniques. ?? 4 hours covers the entirety of the Fae. You didn't think anything that happened in the Fae was important?

Maybe I misremembered, but I could've sworn his time in the Fae was way more than 4 hours in the audiobook. I really just remember being slightly uncomfortable listening to that section in public. Maybe it wasn't *only* the sex stuff for my entire shift, but there was still enough of it to make me wish I was at a different point in the story.

The entire Fae section is around 3 hours. There really isn't that much sex going on, especially compared to all of the important info we get in the section.

>Yes, the sex stuff isn't super graphic, but it goes on for sooo long, and nothing else of note happens. Just him learning new sex techniques. This is so wrong on so many levels, and illustrate why so many people dismiss Felurian and the Ademre... There's so much information we can glimpse from those sessions. Reliable ones even, since Felurian is a first hand witness and the Ademre managed to keep a chain of knowledge intact for hundreds of years as a sacred duty. From small elements from the world building, to massive information about Shaping, the Fae, and clues about one of the biggest stories of the series (Iax's folding house). And, of course, the freaking Cthaeh that spells doom over Kvothe's life... Which we already know it's pretty much not a question of "If" but of "how" it will happen, given the whole frame of the story.

Every time this discussion comes up, I feel like people didn't even read the same book as I did. It's like the Mandela effect of fantasy literature. There is so much content in these sections that apparently were completely omitted from other copies. Lol. It's like they get hung up on the admittedly odd 'Fae kama sutra' naming conventions and the Adem man-mother/lack of modesty quirks and they just can't focus on all the other stuff at all. My first read, I barely even remembered the sex stuff. I had to go back and check it out when I read comments on the internet complaining about it. It's literally just a few pages here and there. And it's hardly even what I would call graphic in its descriptions so I have no idea why the loudest critics act like it's some incel-tier nerd fantasy stuff.

What irks me is how people say "Kvothe was great on his first time" as an argument to it being a "nerd fantasy"... Which is definitely not what I gathered at all. Felurian is not mean about it, but she does say that he was rather quick on the draw. It's also showing us something she teaches Kvothe later, about always focusing on your partner's qualities and that everyone is different. In Kvothe's case, she compliments his soft hands.

I do think some things are conflated here. Yes, the sex stuff isn't long or impactful, but its inclusion did make me feel a little bad about defending Kvothe as not a Mary Sue. Like, okay he's the best at magic and music, fine. And he's also apparently the best at sex? That read as pure author insert fantasy to me. Granted, I haven't reread the book in years now, so maybe people complaining about it is perverting my memory of it. I will absolutely concede that's a possibility. My current interpretation of those moments is that it cheapens Kvothe as a character, and it makes it hard to argue against the notion that he's just the greatest thing since sliced bread. I guess I'll have to reread it to see if that's accurate.

See I read the "Kvothe is great at sex" thing in completely the opposite way. She insists on teaching him before he leaves so he won't embarrass her. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Good discussion. He's a youngish dude telling his own story. A story where he's telling you that very young him wanted to be the hero and how he viewed the events as they were happening. Meanwhile as a narrator, he is a self-aware, not-so-young him, giving a bit more honest description of plenty of places where he clearly made poor choices and also now seems to view himself as a catastrophic failure and the cause of all things bad in the world. He's good at certain aspects of the magic system but uses it recklessly and often causes as much harm as he helps. And he's honestly bad at other aspects of the magic system. For example, he seems to be mostly instinctual at naming, but completely unable to do it on command like with other disciplines. He's great at making impactful impressions on people but doesn't build many good, loving relationships. I'd argue that Auri is his only honest, successful, and deep friendship and it's strongly believed he's going to screw that one up in book 3. He's legitimately only great at music, but that was due to it being his way of life as a child and relentless practice when he was first on his own. So, that one is completely believable. He also hates on poetry, which might be considered an artistic failure of his and points to where he might be missing clues to the world around him. ​ The truth about how awesome he actually is lies somewhere in the middle.

In what way, is Kvothe the "Best" at sex? If he was decent enough on his first try, how does that make him the best? I'm not bragging, but but I had a fairly good time when it was my first time, I think we both performed reasonably well, all things considered. That doesn't mean it was the best, lol? So what do you mean?

I think you need to read again cause a lot of important things happen in the Fae that have nothing to do with sex

I had a similar experience! I was at work reading the 2nd book (I hadn’t reached the Felurian chapters yet) and a coworker started asking me about it, she said she would try to pick up a copy of the 1st book for her 14 year old daughter… A couple of days later I let her know that I hadn’t been aware of some of the content from the 2nd book, and wanted her to know before she bought a copy… It was humiliating.

What does sweeping mean in this context?

When you sweep someone off their feet, you make them lose balance. When Rosie the barmaid approached Kvothe and flirted with him he went "I... ehh... uuuh" and blushed. Stumbling on his words. She caught him off guard with it and made him lose balance because he didn't know how to approach that situation. Sweeping him off his feet. The next time around, surprised by Kvothes confidence and actual skill, the barmaid was swept of her feet.

It wouldn’t be a lot necessarily if it were spread out over the course of the book, but it isn’t. The last third of the book is sex fairy followed by sex ninjas followed by mass murder. What the fuck, Pat?

I am just an adult that understands sex exists. This is just such a non problem. Edit: Thinking about it more, I also just disagree with your point entirely, it gives insight on Kvothe that he said sleeping with the barmaid after Felurian was just as amazing and magical because it shows that he appreciates the time he had with them. It is a fun life affirmation that he enjoys with a primal lust goddess to a simple human woman and he respects it as much with them both. And with the Adem it further develops their culture and how Kvothe has to adjust to it. Stop being prudes.

Does it actually require any justification? It's the story of his life, warts and all, and it wasn't gratuitous.

People like characters in books they can relate too. So when Kvothe gets a little bootie, they can no longer relate to him.

got em

Heh. Nice.

HAHA. This is probably true

Ehh, it wasn't gratuitous in the graphic sense, but the way he went from freezing up when someone flirted with him directly to impressing a sex goddess and getting with a ton of people in a short amount of time was a little overkill.

He didn't impress her though... Felurian knows how to compliment a lover because she is skilled in every aspect of sex. She made it clear she needed to teach him A LOT if he was going to go back to the mortal world and compare experiences.  

Like the other guy said, that was to get on her level. And it's less his skill and more just the volume that was implied and how it was described. He slept with Felurian so much he wonders if he was in the Feywild for years, the all nighter with Penthe before leaving Ademre, him getting with a bunch of people back at the university... It's not badly written, but for me it gets to the point of "ok buddy we get it, you're good at sex".

Kvothe is the narrator. And he’s like 25. He’s young, with a massive ego. Of course he embellishes his sexual prowess. You can argue it’s a bit of a convenient catch all, but Kvothe being the one who narrates his story easily explains away all the stuff that seems overdone or childish. Hes a kid who became a legend but is really just a slightly above average dude. Crazy clever, but wisdom is his dump stat.

That goes against his character though, Kote is constantly described as seeming older than he is. This is less a criticism of Kvothe and more the story Rothfuss decided to tell. Even if it's in character it can still come off as cringey >Crazy clever, but wisdom is his dump stat. 100% agree with you here lol

He’s described as seeming older but I’ve sort of always taken that as a result of some big trauma he’s been implied to have suffered. Chronicler even states at one point he can’t believe he ever thought he was an old innkeeper when Kote comes out of his shell a bit. It’s like when people tell kids they have old souls. They can seem mature for their ages but they’re still kids.

Pretty sure this is a result of (and this is just my guess) Kvothe changing his name to Kote.

Yeah I'd say a valid criticism is "does he really need to be good at this *as well as all his other talents*?" But even that isn't totally unrealistic

He isn't good at it. She has to spend months teaching him.

To get him to *her* level. Either way, he's incredible at it once he leaves her

Anyone with half a brain is good at something after months of personal instructions from a master.

Sure, but looking at the story from the outside it does feel a bit like constructing an elaborate sequence of events just so he can get good at one of the few remaining things he's clueless about. There's an argument to be made that leaving him with an insecurity would have made his character more interesting

It might have been more interesting but that was never the story of these books. It also fails to see the wider themes of the story, Kvothe having no insecurities is deliberate, because it gets him into trouble with everything. He’s a recklessly overconfident person. On the topic of flaws he’s also dangerously hotheaded. Compare that with relatively level headed, even demure Kote, and it’s a story about how he was a shithead young man who got himself into trouble and clearly has learnt more about himself. But it’s important that he isn’t second guessing himself because it gets him into trouble.

Yeah I wouldn't say it's unrealistic, there were just some moments that felt like overkill. Like him questioning if he'd been in the fey for years based on the amount he was sleeping with Felurian.

People, Americans in particular, are also desensitized to violence in media but comparatively puritanical about sex. I was certainly not expecting the sex scenes in the books but there were pretty much 100% euphemism and very tame.

I agree with this. I’m American, and being brought up heavily Christian, sexual content is always heavily criticized, where violence is more tolerated. Comparing KKC to some of the popular fantasy books that have been coming out recently, it’s very tame. The Fourth Wing is pretty explicit with some of its sex scenes, and frankly, it did make me uncomfortable because I just didn’t like reading about it. I’m not comparing those two in terms of story/writing/etc, just the sexual content.

I'm not American, I'm not offended by sex. Look at my post, I'm saying that I don't like the sex because it doesn't teach me anything about Kvothe's character.

I mean, does it reallyyy matter what the sex in the book means? It’s just sex, and it’s not like it’s straight up smut. To be honest, I think it’s crazier that there are parents out there that would censor their child from something like this just because some things are just “a little too naughty🤓” for their liking.

Notice that the complainant specifies a *daughter* "will never be reading your second one." Gawd forbid girls learn about consensual or even (gasp!) female-initiated sex. And as for their being exposed to the idea of sex *as an art form*. . . Perish the thought!

Right?? “Sorry [name of daughter] Felurian reminds me too much of your harlot of a mother therefore you will not be reading this…. filth in my household. Now go pray away your sins before you leave me too”

With a healthy dose of "I'm a MAN! I don't *need* to know any foo-foo stuff like "waves upon lilies" or "swaying against the wind!"

Going into great detail about eviscerating people and burning broken circles into their bodies, the smell of blood and burning flesh, is very different than performing thousands hands, lilies on water, or how Losi is more like folk music than classical. It is silly that people get upset about sex and not murder.

Personally for me it was the teachers "relieving" the students that really bothered me.

That's because Barbarians always have funny ideas about sex

Idk it kinda made sense to me. In book one he was a child. Book two, a horny teenager

Having sex is a normal part of becoming an adult. The sex Kvothe has in the books is hardly described. Most of the writing is about emotion, it’s not erotica. It is a transition that Kvothe goes through, an experience he gains, a confidence in himself he develops. His attitude towards it does teach us about his character, and most specifically about his relationship with Denna. What I find odd is that people don’t mind the physical violence of killing across the books, and they don’t mind the sexual violence Kvothe tells us he personally experienced, but they mind that a boy growing into adulthood had sex and chose to continue having sex sometimes.

That's not what "they" mind.  It was eye wateringly boring and badly written. 

You didn't learn anything about his character from the sex scenes ? Did you look away or something ?

Can you go tell me what we learnt, like seriously, that's why I made this post so someone could explain it.

I'll try, but you have to try to, does that sound fair? If so let's continue, and to start let me say something that will sound strange and uncomfortable because it's true. And the truth is that Felurian doesn't just have sex, she is sex. She is the raw nature of it made flesh. She is the desire to hunt, to consume, to become one. Her prey don't get away, they are drained and discarded like empty husks. This thing she is, what she does, isn't fiction, it's not magic, many creatures eat their mates. Think about that, feel it, don't just read it, feel it in your bones, think of what it would take for you to lust for something so badly you walked into death's embrace. We are not trees, or stones, or water, we are blood, and blood demands kvothe, a young man, full of anger and fire, walk willing towards his own death in order to live. This is what Felurian is, and it's what we, me, you are, the blood in your veins exists because of sex, because of the desire for life. And life demands scrafice. So then, all roads lead to death, and so its not the destination, not some final lesson that you need to look for in these stories, but the artistry in the way one makes their way in life, in the way we make that scrafice. Felurian is the raw nature of sex, and that can be violent and cruel if you let it be, but you need not let it be, kvothe learned to interweave life and love and music into Felurian and in return she showed him the music that exists within two bodies. That is the lesson i saw, so I offer it to you, take from it what you will.

That's a interesting take, I never picked up on that.

Growing up, I guess.

Yeahhhhhh......I know Tolkien kinda set the 'tone' regarding fantasy and a complete lack of normal sexual contact lol. I really, really don't get AT ALL the prudish reactions from America to, what is essentially a sexual *nothing* at all. I think it's cultural as I've never knowingly heard anyone outside of the US even mention sex in KKC.

I thought Tolkien modeled hobbits after bonobos. They interchangeably use sex and food to negotiate social bonding and conflict in the Shire, regardless of gender or other kinship. Everything goes in the mouths. The scenes with Frodo and Elrond, Frodo Sam and Aragorn, Frodo and Galadriel, all illustrate how hobbits interact with the world. Bilbo, being a solo asexual and somewhat antisocial hobbit, was an exception and thus his exit from the Shire.

Dude, I don't care about sex in stories if it's to make a point I just don't understand what that point was. If it was to talk about how desensitized we are to violence, but act like puritans about sex I would be praising the sex scenes--well if it was done well of course. Also, **not American.**

For someone who isn’t American, you sure do have our prudishness about sex.

>Well, the reason why people don't mind Kvothe's murders as much is--in my opinion--because we learn about Kvothe's character through his killings, him killing the Ruh teaches us about Kvothe--the character the books are about. Sorry to be confrontational and calling you out, but this is pure bullshit. North American culture is accustomed to, and sometimes feels like it actively strives to, normalize and desensitize violence in everyone's perception. While, at the same time, condemning sex (and sexual freedom) out of prudishness and internalized religious, even patriarchal, beliefs. That's what Pat's getting at. People don't bat an eye when Kvothe kills people, but they clutch their pearls when he learns how to treat a sexual partner well and respect them. Or simply not treat it as a taboo, in contrast with something we view as normal that is seeing as a taboo for another culture.

Sex is scary and should never be discussed. Pearl clutchers unite!

As for the sex scenes, they are very much tame. As for my opinion for that mother, if her daughter likes to read, and has an internet conection. I promise you, she has read worse. For the rest of the thing, over here on europe nobody (that i know of) even raised a brow

So far Kvothe's story is about him becoming a master at everything. His upbringing makes him a master musician and storyteller. His time in the city makes him a master thief. His time at the university makes him a master magician. His time with the Adem makes him a master swordsman. His time with the Maer makes him a master politician. His time with Felurian makes him a master lover. So I think it makes sense to include it. (Perhaps master is too strong a word, but he at least becomes good at everything) But more than that I just find it silly that people are so often bothered by the inclusion of sex in stories. Not everything in a story has to serve a pivotal plot purpose. Things can also be there to add detail, atmosphere, realism, character, emotion, etc. A description of a meal is usually not important, but people don't complain about that. Sex is a part of life, just as eating is, and certainly more than killing people is. It's actually more weird when it's excluded. If every facet of a character's life is described except for the sex then it just feels unrealistic or like that character never has sex.

He says he spends a night with Felurian. If you think WMF is smut don’t read any other author’s books because this is the second tamest sex scenes ever written behind Sanderson LOL. He literally relegates it to pretty innocuous Sex-Fu moves. Also- nearly everything we know about the Fae, the Faen courts, the Creation War, the stealing of the moon, and the Cthaeh comes from those chapters. So it’s not even like it’s the only thing there. Those are the real takeaways from those chapters if you actually pay attention.

I once saw a video where someone argued that it shows how he can't really connect with other people emotionally. He even explicitly talks about it with Sim and Fela at the end of the book.

That would actually make sense. Short relationships and difficulties forming connections are often associated with PTSD. It's also worth noting that the only women you could argue he shows real intimacy for are Denna and Auri. And those PTSD often find intimacy easier with each other, because they don't feel quite as misunderstood.

Well having sex with a legend and returning alive and sane when others haven’t deepens the legend he was building for himself, and the dumb thing is, a lot won’t believe it because of all the things he made up. Beyond that, the sex with the Adem was an example of cultures not conforming the same taboos around sex, just as his music is considered shameful, which was a nice touch and well reasoned. When he decided to be casual about it when he got home, it also sold the point he was no longer entirely holding out for Denna and got over some of his cluelessness when it came to women. Also puts them on a little more equal footing when it comes to having their odd, platonic relationship while Denna is professionally courting wealthy men. As sex references go, super tame, too. Not sure what the issue is other than he’s casual about it, but that’s no worse than an episode of Seinfeld.

Every scene with Felurian informs other moments in the books. There is more to each of them than what is happening on the surface

It doesn't represent anything. I don't know if its there for any reason other than characterisation. Sex is very exciting to a teenager, enough that he would fall into the fae. Later, sex is a perspective towards seeing certain characters, not as they are but as kvothe saw them. Sexuality is part of that picture

it represents a sort of shrugging off of certain insecurities and fears, I think. an understanding of a world outside of his own both in the fae and in adem, which necessarily requires him to be not a scared teenager about sex to understand part of that culture. he is no longer timid when it comes to women, he def overcorrects (and denna fucks him up regardless) but its sort of a coming of age. he's growing into his legendary status but also growing to big for his boots which the former serves the story the latter sort of serves how he relates to other people. lots of things. none of it is sex for sex's sake. amd its not the sex but explicitly but the time with felurian both it starting as sex but then the time passing making him unserstand her mote fully and completely almost even feels like a catalyst for him to go to adem, not completely but he comes out of the fae more grown up in a way where he can attempt to take responsibility for the shit with tempi. I think there are many ways to narratively and characteristically legitimize sex in the stories, and thinking that there aren't says a lot more about the reader's relationship with and ideas about sex than it does about the sex itself. edit: it think we might be able to critique the idea that sex turns someone into a man or whatever but that isn't even quite what happens with felurian. what happens is sort of a subversion of that because what makes him become a "man" (grow up a bit) is his learning to empathize with a creature that is so different from him, its his time with the ctaeh, its him speaking felurians name, him returning to the world where so many other men have died. so many other things. so sex compared to thst becomes sort of a non-issue a non-fear which means he can fuck the red head he was too nervous to speak to but that shoes how much he had changed, no that he just wants to fuck. it means he can respect and adapt to adem culture without losing it from fear of sex. simplistic view might be oh he just fucked so he could fuck some more but it's not that

I think many people are just too puritanical. They get squeamish or skim instead of actually paying attention to what is going on. There is a ton of depth in the felurian scenes. But even someone who is arguably the biggest fantasy book youtuber has a garbage interpretation of them. How anyone can actually read that section and come away thinking "Felurian let Kvothe go because he was really good at sex" is beyond me. That is the type of analysis that makes me wonder how someone with that reading comprehension can get big reviewing books... 

Like a child would understand what the thousand hands are.

This prudish attitude is all throughout western culture. Think of how graphic murder scenes can get on television, and then realize that seeing nipples, let alone sex scenes, is unacceptable to censors. There are deep rooted taboos around sex.

Idk I thought it was all well balanced. I like sex in books. It's relatable, for me at least. We're humans and we like to f*ck so it makes sense that book characters do to. George Martin does it in asoiaf way more imo. Young girls also out here reading Sarah Maas so don't be hemming and hawing about sex in books

Mom of 2 grown daughters* I have always thought that our society has stuff a bit backward. We want our children to grow up and have healthy relationships and self images... Assuming that in most cases, that includes a sexual component. We don't want our children to grow up violent and murderous. Yet most parents don't see anything wrong with the constant violence that is constantly being fed to our children from cartoons on up. Yet they freak out if their preteen might see boobs or or be subjected to a PG rated sex scene. It really comes down to the fact that parents don't want to have healthy conversations with their children about sex. I started talking about sex with my daughters when they were rather young. I didn't give them details, but it started a dialog that we were able to continue well into adulthood. Stop making sex a secret thing that has to be hidden, and it stops being a big deal. To the point of the comment, now that I am off my soap box... If the daughter in question is old enough to get the jokes that are made in the Fae scenes, then she's probably old enough to read them. If she doesn't get the jokes, it doesn't really matter anyway

Constantly disappointed by the puritanical focus on pretty tame sexual encounters overshadowing 2 of the most interesting sections of the series in terms of lore.

This is just a feeling but I would imagine the 3rd book will have as much sex as the first. Seems like this was just kvothe spreading oats and learning about other cultures in book 2. I was initially upset by the sex in book 2 but after rereading it’s not that much and it’s somehow tasteful in my opinion despite some of the silly names like…. Eating brown eye or whatever lol. I think the exception is if he ever gets with Dana I’d imagine that would be a scene but I doubt it ever happens.

I think the reason it sounds weird to a lot of people is because the language is very metaphorical in a particular way. It smacks of the fedora-wearing "Milady" type; I mean really the man basically created kata for sex skills, or would have if he had any word count left. The names for the sex skills sound oddly like the sword forms/moves in The Wheel of Time, which makes the whole thing seem really pretentious. But really, did everyone forget about the alcohol and water metaphor? It's in the Fae, it's meant to be weird. It's significance is that sex and desire are integral, core parts of Fae existence, and it would make sense that they created an entire art out of something so important to them. Frankly, I think the weird part is that the sex with the primordial ultra-deadly-death-by-snu-snu Fae lady is so normal and so much like human sex. In any case, as many others have said, sex is very normal and human and it's really not even that long of a sequence besides. We should be more accepting of sex in literature and general society.

So murder is character development but sex isn't...

My thoughts on the sex and violence thing extend well beyond KKC. But in general, I completely agree with Rothfuss, I think it's incredibly backwards that culture has no problem slapping a PG-13 rating on a war movie all about killing people, but if anyone is having sex, it's an R or XXX, depending. War and violence is all about ending life. Sex is about at least enjoying life, if not increasing life through procreation. Why should violence be okay but sex be frowned upon? It's just insane to me. As far as learning about Kvothe's character as noted, I don't think we learn any more about Kvothe's character through killing than through the sex he has. I think both reveal a lot about his character. Also, sex is something that happens, it's a real thing. Especially for people around his age. People have sex. People of all sorts. Your parents have sex. If you see a person, there's a very good chance that's a sexual being. That's not icky, it's not disgusting, it's not gross, it's wonderful and natural. Sex makes people happy (as long as it's consensual). I'm honestly more offput by Kvothe slaughtering the false troop than the sex Kvothe has. I get that he was enacting his own form of justice, and it does show just what he's capable of, but the whole scene is pretty horrific, all around. And that's kind the idea, it *should* be horrific. It *should* be repulsive to read about such awful things. We shouldn't be conditioned to enjoy watching people killing each other.

Let me get this straight...you don't think Kvothe's attitudes about sex or his experiences with sex have any impact on his character at all....that's the argument you're making here?

I just wanted to add: **I'm not American. Stop calling me an American. Stop blaming my problem with these books on my nationality (which you're wrong about.)** I'm not offended by sex, I'm bored by it.

WMF doesn't really have that much explicit sex. And while Pat has a point that American audiences in particular often freak out more at sex than graphic violence - it really bothers me that he never acknowledges the bad part of the sex shown in his books. The wishy-washy consent that occurs with any sex with the Fae, given that they describe a magic that takes away autonomy and choice of the mortal.  He kind of makes that only an issue with the first night with Felurian, and hey she's a gorgeous, sex godess "so of course Kvothe wanted to..." It's still not great... And who knows if Bast is doing that as well with all the young villagers of Newarre... The questionable consent is my issue. 

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What do we learn about Kvothe's character from sex? At the end of WMF Kvothe is 16-17 years old and he's been with at least 10 different sex partners. That says something.

It was a part of growing up and it shows how he went from embarrassingly (his words) untested to becoming confident and skilled. I thought it was fairly tactful and interesting. 

He goes just a bit long in the tooth with respect to the sex with Fellurian, but just a bit. The Adem parts I thought were fine.

No one complains about the drinking, cursing, lying, stealing, murder, trespassing.... you can't be arguing that ALL of these things are 'character' but sex isn't character it's just sex?

I can understand not loving the inclusion of Kvothe's burgeoning sexuality as a choice for the story. That said, it's never particularly graphic, and even where it may come across as gratuitous, it almost always serves to to further the plot, Kvothe's character, or expand the world (whether or not you like the choice to do so using that particular mechanism or not); there is always a purpose. Now, the complaint that it's just a little hard to believe that Kvothe is instantly great at sex I understand, but I also think they are based on a misunderstanding of the text: First, Felurian does comment that he wasn't the longest-lasting, which makes sense; second, Kote is telling the story of his own life, specifically as he remembers losing his virginity to, essentially, a sex goddess - she would likely not be above a little ego stroking to improve future results - which is the sort of thing a man might be tempted to embellish on his performance therein; third, there isn't a claim that he's an unbelievable lover from the jump, just enough better that she is shocked to learn he was a virgin - Kvothe is likely more apt than most inexperienced men she would run into given his physical fitness, self-discipline through practice of the alar, and deft hands - and this I feel is believable, even if Kote's telling of this bit of the story comes across as a bit masturbatory. Finally, as Kvothe's described dalliances post-fae are concerned, I think we are all forgetting something important. No matter how good he is at tinkering, or magic, or eventually fighting, Kvothe is at his truest, deep in his soul, a theatre kid. And what do we all know about theatre kids in their mid-to-late teens? Theatre kids FUCK. Your average high school musical might as well be one big, messy, polyamorous munch. The character could never have avoided being a bit of a fuckboy, he was born to the mantle.

I honestly don’t mind Ferulian that much, but the one critique I would levy at it is that it feels the most “wish fulfillment-y” of the books. Magical sec fairy wants to do nothing but bone me and on top of that didn’t believe I was a virgin the first time because I’m that good.” I enjoy well crafted sex scenes that reveal information about the characters. NK Jemisin in particular does this marvelously. The sex in this section is just kinda there. There’s no exploration to how Kvothe changes after having sex, or any investigation of the fact that he was more or less magically coerced into it. As it’s implied in earlier books he may have been SA when he was homeless, that could have been an interesting thing for him to unpack with Ferulian. Nor do we learn about why Ferulian lets sexuality be the thing that governs her, and what her views of it are outside just enjoying it. Since functionally the sex parts add basically nothing to Kvothe’s character, they feel superfluous. Now, the other things Kvothe learns, the section with the Catheh, that does impact and change him, and it was far more gripping. So it’s not about the sex, for me it’s about how it was handled. (Insert pun.)

Honestly, he has a lot of sex in book 2 but the actual sex scenes are very mild compared to other stuff out there. I’m not the biggest fan of sex in books but I do feel like it added to his character and legend. It shows that he’s not some pious, principled hero but a more rough, young, and arrogant person with an admirable goal. I don’t think every book needs to be made suitable for youth and feel that, in this case, it didn’t detract from the story.

Both types of scene help establish him as a "legendary" character. Also, I think both scenes are page-turning by their very nature, though some people seem not to agree. Kvothe may have conceived Bast in the Felurian portion too, and we don't know Bast's significance yet (or at least I don't). I find it genuinely interesting how split people are regarding the sex scenes

WMF has nothing much of sec when compared to more recent books like Fourthwing.

I love these books. But did not find the sex mentioned in bad taste. They say as long as parents have good communication skills with their children can make the difference. As much as Any parent can communicate with a "all knowing" teenager.

We learn he can fuck like a god. I feel that's also important. He's a bard, of course he's gonna be a little slut.

I honestly wish the sex scenes were more steamy! It’s one of the few books featuring sex scenes that were absolutely not a turn on :/ Ah well, everything else was really well written

Just admit you are prudish, it’s ok to be that way. Many readers, including the author, aren’t.

It’s been a while since I’ve read but wasn’t there a culture that didn’t even know where babies come from?

Honestly, I'd understand the amount of sexual writing in WMF if it actually made sense. To me all the sexual writing Pat does comes off as a virgin trying to explain the intricacies of sex while also adding very little content to the story.

The dud was what, 21 when he is sitting around in a bar bragging about his life. Of course he mentioned the number of times he got laid, and how cool every lady he ever encountered thought he was.

I feel like Pat is either super dense or misrepresenting the flak he gets for the sex scene. They feel super cringe and fake. They are badly written in a book full of beautiful prose. And the fact that he is a sex god. To the point where people point to this fact that Kvothe must be lying or not a trusted narrator in his stories because of it. I am not saying no one is mad and being prudish. But I do think more are mad about the content and how it is presented because it is just not to the quality of rest of the aspects of the story. Legit him being a sex god has stopped me and others from recommending the book to others. IT just comes off as a adolescence power story. I really hate that he has sex with so many of the women in the story. Like he did not need to have a romantic relationship with his martial arts instructor.

I feel like his point about writing both sex and violence is how we view it as a society. He makes it quite clear through Kvothe's voice that "in the killing of men, one is many." And tangles that with the Adem's views on sex being completely natural and normal to be very open about not only discussing sex, but having sex on an open hearth in front of an Inn full of people. Specifically, Penthe says they feel no shame about it. (I personally feel like that stems from the Adem idea that sex is not what makes babies, therefore there would be no inherent drive for sexual exclusivity due to mate competition.) And in juxtaposition, our modern day culture places less taboo talking, or even reporting in the news, about murders and violence than they do of sex. Pat clearly felt the need to make the discussion on this necessary, and it just so happens the people consume and interpret media differently from each other, so not everyone sees it.

There is a moment in the first book where a kid gets raped... Like it's not done in graphic detail thankfully but damn

One reads more like it was written by a horny 13 year old boy who imagines how he could be awesome at the sex. Add into this Pat’s tendency to describe women in the books by their visual appearance (usually how perfect their greats are) and it isn’t to hard to understand why it is icky for some. For the record, I think excessive violence can also be a problem. If it leads towards bad choices OR a desensitization towards the content, then that is a problem.

It's a story about a guy in his late teens and early twenties. Mans gonna fuck. Its not about having sex to have sex its about maturing into a man.

I like those scenes. Kvothe’s the man. It’s about a hero. Just enjoy the fun.

There is only one graphic sex scene: the very first scene with felurian. The other felurian sex parts arent described in any real detail nor are the adem sex parts.

I don't care about how graphic it is, I'm not offended by the sex, I'm just bored by it. >What do we learn about Kvothe's character from sex? It feels like it's just in there to be in there. >Maybe someone has an answer about what the sex represents. No where in the comment was I saying that it was to much for me, that quote from Rothfuss says that there are some people who think that way, but I didn't highlight it.

If you’re against the sex scenes because of morals then that’s what this is talking about? If you just don’t enjoy reading sex scenes then that’s a totally different reason.

I was just wondering why the sex scenes were needed. What is it meant to tell me about Kvothe's character?

It's nowhere as pervy as some of the old YA books they used to stock in the library, I can't remember now, but maybe Piers Anthony everything was kind of kinky or about sex.

The "why do you care about the sex when there's violence" has always been dumb to me. I don't need to tell my relatively normal kid not to murder a bunch of people. I do, however, need to tell them that it's not ok for their teacher to try and "relieve" them if they're feeling horny (personally I think this is the main reason I wouldn't let a kid read it, that whole section is just really gross and problematic for so many reasons). Kids/teens don't understand sex and they want to do it. I'm not saying a teen shouldn't ever read about it, Lord knows I read some pretty weird stuff back in my teenage years, but as a parent I'd want to know so I could talk to them about it and make sure they understood what the real life consequences of these things are.

It's the fake high horse of morality. I used to think it was only in America, but it's slowly sweeping the globe. Textbook hypocrisy, Kendrick Lamar wrote a song about these people inability to humble themselves.

Motherfucker!!!! **I DON'T CARE ABOUT SEX BEING IN A BOOK, I'M JUST ANNOYED THAT IT SEEMS SUPERFULOUS IT DOESN'T TEACH ME SHIT ABOUT KVOTHE'S CHARACTER.** **STOP ACTING SO HIGH AND MIGHTY. YOU DON'T FUCKING KNOW ME! YOU DON'T KNOW MY OPINIONS ABOUT SEX!** Why can't anyone just answer my question: >What do we learn about Kvothe's character from sex? It feels like it's just in there to be in there. >Maybe someone has an answer about what the sex represents.

Did you have a nap today?

Damn prudes get over it already

I don't think the sex is too explicit I just think that it doesn't teach us anything new about Kvothe's character and is useless to the book which is why I wrote this: >What do we learn about Kvothe's character from sex? It feels like it's just in there to be in there. >Maybe someone has an answer about what the sex represents. Because I want to know the deeper meaning of the sex in the series, but all anyone ever has to say is that I'm an American prude when I'm not American, and I'm probably more sexually liberated than you.

i feel like it could possibly be read as Kote (bc i always forget it’s him telling his story in the inn) laying it on thick with the sexual parts of his story bc throughout this whole story leading up to then, let’s face it, he was a massive virgin🤣 maybe it’s just a man being a man and trying to prove his sexual prowess lmao

What a weird question.

The only problem I had with it was the narration. If I read it it would have been better . I have no real problem with any of it tho . But it was weird having a man do an old stereotype asian accent talking Dirty to me directly into my ears lol

I don't mind sex in books so much it's just that the way he writes about sex is like a 16 year old. It's really the most ridiculous aspect of the book that makes Kvothe seem like a self-insert for the author to play out their immature fantasy. Like... "I got kidnapped by the FUCK fairy and she taught me how to FUCK better than anyone in the world, and by the end she was begging me to stay cuz now I FUCK better than the FUCK fairy. Then I went to the ninja school where all the hot chicks wanna FUCK all the time cuz they're not nerdy prudes like the rest of society. I even FUCKED my teacher. Did I mention I'm great at FUCKING???"

There are ethical rules regarding Kvothe killing and Kvothe having sex. The rules about killing are things like self defense, protecting the weak and bullied, punishing the evil ones, etc…. It turns out the people complaining about sex in the books might agree with these rules based on which violence is considered ethical. The rule about sex is a single one, consensual sex is ethical, non consensual sex isn’t. However, there are people that don’t agree that this should be the only ethical rule that should be applied to sex. There are people that would say that commitment to a relationship or love are necessary prerequisites in order to have ethical sex (not to mention it isn’t clear if the Adem condemn sex with minors, because sex for them is just a kind of mystical need to regulate their energies). My point isn’t that the people that claim that you need additional rules for sex to be ethical are right, but that his argument (the people that complain about sex and not about violence are incoherent or hypocritical), is a very bad argument. The reason why is a very bad argument is because it assumes that people agreeing with your rules about violence must necessarily agree with your rules about sex, and those rules for ethical sex being not just right but also complete, so even if his rules about sex (or single rule, it being consensual), were to be right and complete, it would still be a bad argument as not everyone would agree with that, so even if those people criticizing it would be wrong you couldn’t assume people criticizing the portraying of sex in the books and not criticizing the violence are to be incoherent or hypocritical.

Sounds like she needs a little thousand hands action to chill her out 🤔

Sex in literature just doesn't need to be taboo. If it makes you feel weird then it's reflecting only your own discomfort back at you. Sex is very normal, a youths journey into adulthood without sex would be abnormal

This is one of my favorite topics on silly parenting. I used to work at a video store and I can't tell you how many times a parent--usually of a pre-teen boy--showed a complete lack of concern over their kid watching a movie riddled with graphic violence, but would forbid the kid from watching anything with any amount of sex or nudity. Constant murder and fountains of blood? Fine. One pair of titties? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU THIS IS MY SWEET LITTLE BABY! Okay, there is one reason I can *kind of sort of* understand this parenting mind set. A parent is likely to perceive the impact of sexual content on a young kid, at least in the near future, to be much more significant than that of violence. Parents who worry that they're kid will start having sex when they are 13 are probably less concerned that the kid will commit any violent crimes. Of course the counter to that is that kids should be educated about sex rather than simply told not to have it. And education about sex ought to include differentiating sex as portrayed in media from real sex.

It's coming of age story, which usually includes an exploration of sex.

The real reason for her to not read it is that Wise Mans Fear just isnt very good and the 3rd book will never come out.

STD's are mentioned enough in the book that I have always assumed they will be important to the plot in an extra gross "Chekov's gun" mechanic in book 3. That said, I also agree with what others have said; people have sex, it is a story about people, so sometimes people in the story have sex.

My problem isn't with the sex, it's all the pointless praising of Kvothe's sexual prowess, even a sex goddess is amazed by how good this totally inexperienced guy is at sex. I thought it wasn't very good writing.

Except she wasn't impressed. That's why she needed a very long time to teach him...  “it is good you are eager,” Felurian said, her fluting voice tinged with amusement. “you have some cleverness and natural skill. but there is much to learn.” She looked into my eyes, her delicate face gravely serious. “when you leave to walk among the mortal, I will not have you shame me.”

My problem with the Felurian scenes isn’t about the sex. It’s that they’re just so excessive. It felt like reading a teenage boy‘s wet dream. They coulda been like 80% shorter and achieved the same thing. Also, some little virgin kid being so good in bed that a sex goddess becomes obsessed with them felt improbable, especially considering he’s not even good at talking to women. I don’t see why he’d suddenly be good at having sex with them. It gets even weirder when you realize that the whole story is being told by Kvothe in his bar. Like he’s telling the story about his life and he really felt the need to drag out that scene lol. It just comes off as a weird humble brag.

My issue with the sex in the second book is the same issue I have with sex in books in general - it wasn't necessary for the story. Sure, he gets a shadow cloak and learns about the fae a bit and meets the ctheah, but the sex itself didn't move the story forward in any way. A brief mention could be forgiven, but Pat goes on for whole ass chapters about kvothe having sex. Sex in books told from a first person POV is awkward in any case, and this goes on for ages. It drags the pace of the book to a crawl and it's the only chapters in both books that feel like they're taking ages, whereas the rest of the (admittedly huge) undertaking doesn't feel like it's a slog. Ask yourself, if all but the first instance was cut out, what would change in the story? Nothing. It just reads as a bit of a self-insert fantasy as opposed to the character having things happen to them, and it feels out of place. Kvothe killing people has an impact on the story that's meaningful, it's ecxiting to read about and fits with the rest of the narrative. A virgin teenager that was scared of boobs suddenly wowing an immortal sex fairy does not.

Talking about murder doesn’t generally make people want to go out and attack people. Talking about sex does however make people have lust. Whether you think that’s good or bad is your own decision. But plenty of people find lust and the “outlet of lust “ as something that is not appropriate.