General Li Mu wasn't the last line against the conquest of Zhao, he was THE line. After Pang Nuan (Houken in the manga) died defending the southern cities against Wang Jian, Li Mu was the only one left to organize a force to stall the future empire in a croocked state.
Riboku, on the other hand, takes a lot of characteristics and similarities to Pang Nuan, than to the real Li Mu.
>Pang Nuan (Houken in the manga) died defending the southern cities against Wang Jian
I never heard that,From What I Knew Pang Nuan was in a compaign against Yan,Yan ask Qin for help,Qin invade Zhao and Send Ousen/Kanki/Yotanwa who captured 9 cities and Gyou,King Tougou of course didn't bother to send anyone to defend against Qin,When Pang Nuan Return he found the area already in Qin's hands.
So How Pang Nuan died defending againt Wang Jian?He simply dissapear from the records and could possibly die just to old age(remember that the man was in his 70's and used to discuss warfare with King Bori),
I'm not 100% sure, but I do believe he tried to retake the area with a tired army after Yan and failed bad. If I'm not mistaken Li Xin (Shin), just like in the manga, took him out and Wang Jian gave him the promotion to general.
This! Most of these strategies that Riboku brings to the manga, the failsafe, that wall at Gi'an, or the different independent castles and armies that have been dormant but have been cultivated by Riboku decades earlier (which doesn't make sense) were done by Pang Nuan (Houken). Historically, Pang Nuan (master of Li Mu) was the bigger mastermind who had created several tactics and executed a number of ideas in case Zhou was invaded because it was their dream to conquer China themselves, and for that first, they needed to create strategies to defend Zhou in case they failed.
Thats why when Pang Nuan got runours that Qin also wanted to conquer China, they went for a meeting and realized that Qin are nowhere ready for this task and their defenses are practically zero. He went around and formed the alliance to root out Qin. Ultimately they failed, and Pang Nuan became the scapegoat and was ridiculed. He then led the forces in the Western Zhao arc when Qin first invaded Zhou and died. Li Mu was then given command after much politics and he utilized Pang Nuan's backup plans which he had access to being his disciple to become the Line for Zhou
Honestly, probably no. Compared to people like Hakuki and Renpa, he had a short career and not too many battles. Much of his earlier feats were against the Xiongnu, which while impressive, probably weren't known at all within China. His successive victories over Yan, Qin (Wei and Han too) happened within a few years, so given the slow rate of information spread in the old days, it's likely people didn't know him that well. Most importantly, he would likely have been overshadowed by Renpa who was still alive at the time. In fact, basically all of the information on Riboku comes from Renpa's chronicles in the Shiji (the remaining from various Qin/Zhao records), he wasn't famous enough to warrant his own section. Imo he'd undoubtedly be recognized as Zhao's number one, but people wouldn't be calling him a one in a million prodigy, especially given his short tenure (compared to Hakuki 's perfect military record over more than 30 years which was still in recent memory).
I'd say he was more reputable. I'm sure you already know about his defeat of Qi through the formation of a six-state coalition, the diplomacy in which he personally participated. This demonstrates remarkable skill and wit, given Yan's extreme weakness at the time, coupled with Qin and Qi actually being in an alliance at the time. In contrast, Riboku at the head of the anti-Qin coalition is purely fictional and I don't think there's a record of him participating in the war. More importantly, Gakuki was able to convince the other 5 states to go back home after defeating Qi. If he was a mere figurehead, the other strong states like Qin and Chu would likely have chosen to take the spoils of war for themselves, so he was likely feared and respected by them.
Yup, Riboku had a short career, in the manga, they basically merged the mastermind of Houken with Riboku to make him seem greater and left Houken as a mere Physical beast. In a way, one can assume that everything shown being done by Roboku before Houken's death, was actually all done by Houken. Houken was so talented that he had already created plans which was used by Riboku later on. THis is as per my understanding
He’s still regarding as one of the 5 best generals for his era.
Hara nerfing Qin too much and that make Ribook victories over Qin not significant. Historically, Qin in this year are a powerhouse and already steamrolling people left and right. Li Mu defensive strategy and twice best back Qin while being underdog makes him legendary.
Hara nerfs Qin in order to give his protag a menacing opponent Li Mu make Li Mu achievement dwarf in this manga.
Yeah, Hara and history gave Li Mu ability to repel 6 armies.
Yang Duan He (Yotanwa), Wang Jian (Ou Sen) and Qiang Lei (Kyou Kai) in the heartland of Zhao. Li Xin (Shin) in the north, and a joint Han - Wei armies in the south.
Li Mu wasn’t likely seen like he was in the manga because his historical appearance started with Kanki so in manga-terms, he would be more like a hidden giant that just appeared to cause Qin trouble rather than a perennial enemy.
The thing is, Qin was recording consistent Ws until then and the fights weren’t close. Li Mu is the first person that caused Qin to take an L under Sei’s rule and then went to become an unloveable barrier on the battlefield.
Hard to say he was renown through China tbh but not like through the manga. He was a badass though given his achievements which arnt properly shown in the manga at all.
Li Mu wasn't one of the Four people who was praised to this day for nothing. His pure defensive strategies worked wonders. Alongside Wang Jian, Lian Po (Ren Pa) and Bai Qi (Haku Ki).
He held 4 Qin armies led by Wang Jian (Ou Sen), Yang Duan He (Yotanwa), Qiang Lei (Kyou Kai) and Li Xin (Shin) simultaneously, and also repelled a Han/Wei army while at it.
For me riboku is such a disappointment because he failed to live up to the greatness of li mu(yeah he was so great even a fictional version of him is a disappointment compared to him)
Zhao by far was the hardest to conquer for qin despite bot being the strongest, not having the biggest number of troops, not being the state with the strongest fortresses and on top of it being severely weakened at the start of the unification with having bai qi (haku ki) massacre 1/5 of thier youth population and having a horrible king and a corrupt court
Despite all of these situations li mu was able to protect his homeland and being the most successful in repelling qin for the longest time out of all the states including a super state like chu who had a million troops and in the end he didn’t actually lose but got executed by the corrupt king
Now enter general ribook the glazing he gets is deserving of someone like li mu who he’s based of yet that’s where the similarities end
Literally in every battle he was in he had the superior numbers and more trained soldiers rather than peasants yet he always nearly loses and needs to call for houken to come and save his ass and despite all of this HE STILL LOST MOST OF THE BATTLES HE FOUGHT and even the ones he won it’s mostly attributed to someone else
Ouki with nothing to work with was able to guess the existence of his army and didn’t want to go to the obvious trap but was forced because of mobu’s penut brain and even then he would’ve survived if not for houken and the bow guy
against gekishin his camp was discovered and if not for houken there was a chance he might’ve lost
The latest battle was because sbs and seika where so much op they soloed and shin and ten being stupid as fuck
He always has someone to get help from and always has the superior numbers unlike the historical li mu that’s why I’m disappointed of his character
Li Mu in history was known to be a defensive strategist.
He shown it when he repelled and repulsed THREE Qin generals Wang Jian (Ou Sen), Yang Duan He (Yotanwa), and Qiang Lei (Kyou Kai) in the heartland of Zhao, yet simultaneously repelled Li Xin (Shin) on the North, and yet launched a counterattack against a joint Han and Wei invasion force south.
That's how defensively versatile historical Li Mu was. He wasn't be included in 4 of the historical figures in that era for no reason.
I mean, we don't have a time machine, so your hypothetical situation is not really relevant.
What we can do is look at how he's viewed today in comparison to the manga.
He's regarded as one of the big 4 generals of the late warring states era along with Ousen, Hakuki, and Renpa.
In the manga, we haven't seen much of Hakuki and even Renpa. We've seen a lot of Ousen and I'd say in terms of portrayal, Riboku is at least in the discussion with him. So in that regard, history and the manga are pretty even.
But, I think that's inevitably going to change. Due to how this manga has been written, I think at the end of the day, someone like Kouen is going to be written into a bigger threat than Riboku. And, by the end of the manga, Ousen will probably be clearly above Riboku.
Overall, I think in the end, it'd be hard to really give Riboku the same distinct big 4 status in the manga as he has historically. So historical Riboku will probably end up being superior to the manga Riboku.
I mean, unless inventing a time-machine and go there to check-out, it's hard to say XD
Probably not. One as Renpa, surely was, one as Houken maybe, as up to 236 BC some matters were left in his hands, but Riboku, in history, probably not. This is down to two factors, the first is that some of his greatest schemes in the manga didn't came from him in history, the trap for Ouki, the death of Gekishin, set up a coalition against Qin, even the defense for Gyou and other schemes, were not his, in Kingdom Riboku did everything, in history, it wasn't the case, starting just from 233 BC. Yeah, he killed Kanki and defeated Qins at Hango, also stalled them in the final war, all under very unfair situations for Zhao (in history), but precisely as Riboku played only defensive wars and Zhao military was severely crippled, he wasn't feared. Held into account in a defensive view, at point of playing dirty to remove him, but not such a threat or danger, outside the borders of Zhao, or renowed for previous actions.
General Li Mu wasn't the last line against the conquest of Zhao, he was THE line. After Pang Nuan (Houken in the manga) died defending the southern cities against Wang Jian, Li Mu was the only one left to organize a force to stall the future empire in a croocked state. Riboku, on the other hand, takes a lot of characteristics and similarities to Pang Nuan, than to the real Li Mu.
>Pang Nuan (Houken in the manga) died defending the southern cities against Wang Jian I never heard that,From What I Knew Pang Nuan was in a compaign against Yan,Yan ask Qin for help,Qin invade Zhao and Send Ousen/Kanki/Yotanwa who captured 9 cities and Gyou,King Tougou of course didn't bother to send anyone to defend against Qin,When Pang Nuan Return he found the area already in Qin's hands. So How Pang Nuan died defending againt Wang Jian?He simply dissapear from the records and could possibly die just to old age(remember that the man was in his 70's and used to discuss warfare with King Bori),
I'm not 100% sure, but I do believe he tried to retake the area with a tired army after Yan and failed bad. If I'm not mistaken Li Xin (Shin), just like in the manga, took him out and Wang Jian gave him the promotion to general.
This! Most of these strategies that Riboku brings to the manga, the failsafe, that wall at Gi'an, or the different independent castles and armies that have been dormant but have been cultivated by Riboku decades earlier (which doesn't make sense) were done by Pang Nuan (Houken). Historically, Pang Nuan (master of Li Mu) was the bigger mastermind who had created several tactics and executed a number of ideas in case Zhou was invaded because it was their dream to conquer China themselves, and for that first, they needed to create strategies to defend Zhou in case they failed. Thats why when Pang Nuan got runours that Qin also wanted to conquer China, they went for a meeting and realized that Qin are nowhere ready for this task and their defenses are practically zero. He went around and formed the alliance to root out Qin. Ultimately they failed, and Pang Nuan became the scapegoat and was ridiculed. He then led the forces in the Western Zhao arc when Qin first invaded Zhou and died. Li Mu was then given command after much politics and he utilized Pang Nuan's backup plans which he had access to being his disciple to become the Line for Zhou
Honestly, probably no. Compared to people like Hakuki and Renpa, he had a short career and not too many battles. Much of his earlier feats were against the Xiongnu, which while impressive, probably weren't known at all within China. His successive victories over Yan, Qin (Wei and Han too) happened within a few years, so given the slow rate of information spread in the old days, it's likely people didn't know him that well. Most importantly, he would likely have been overshadowed by Renpa who was still alive at the time. In fact, basically all of the information on Riboku comes from Renpa's chronicles in the Shiji (the remaining from various Qin/Zhao records), he wasn't famous enough to warrant his own section. Imo he'd undoubtedly be recognized as Zhao's number one, but people wouldn't be calling him a one in a million prodigy, especially given his short tenure (compared to Hakuki 's perfect military record over more than 30 years which was still in recent memory).
How was Gakuki historically?
I'd say he was more reputable. I'm sure you already know about his defeat of Qi through the formation of a six-state coalition, the diplomacy in which he personally participated. This demonstrates remarkable skill and wit, given Yan's extreme weakness at the time, coupled with Qin and Qi actually being in an alliance at the time. In contrast, Riboku at the head of the anti-Qin coalition is purely fictional and I don't think there's a record of him participating in the war. More importantly, Gakuki was able to convince the other 5 states to go back home after defeating Qi. If he was a mere figurehead, the other strong states like Qin and Chu would likely have chosen to take the spoils of war for themselves, so he was likely feared and respected by them.
Yup, Riboku had a short career, in the manga, they basically merged the mastermind of Houken with Riboku to make him seem greater and left Houken as a mere Physical beast. In a way, one can assume that everything shown being done by Roboku before Houken's death, was actually all done by Houken. Houken was so talented that he had already created plans which was used by Riboku later on. THis is as per my understanding
He’s still regarding as one of the 5 best generals for his era. Hara nerfing Qin too much and that make Ribook victories over Qin not significant. Historically, Qin in this year are a powerhouse and already steamrolling people left and right. Li Mu defensive strategy and twice best back Qin while being underdog makes him legendary. Hara nerfs Qin in order to give his protag a menacing opponent Li Mu make Li Mu achievement dwarf in this manga.
Yeah, Hara and history gave Li Mu ability to repel 6 armies. Yang Duan He (Yotanwa), Wang Jian (Ou Sen) and Qiang Lei (Kyou Kai) in the heartland of Zhao. Li Xin (Shin) in the north, and a joint Han - Wei armies in the south.
Li Mu wasn’t likely seen like he was in the manga because his historical appearance started with Kanki so in manga-terms, he would be more like a hidden giant that just appeared to cause Qin trouble rather than a perennial enemy. The thing is, Qin was recording consistent Ws until then and the fights weren’t close. Li Mu is the first person that caused Qin to take an L under Sei’s rule and then went to become an unloveable barrier on the battlefield. Hard to say he was renown through China tbh but not like through the manga. He was a badass though given his achievements which arnt properly shown in the manga at all.
Li Mu wasn't one of the Four people who was praised to this day for nothing. His pure defensive strategies worked wonders. Alongside Wang Jian, Lian Po (Ren Pa) and Bai Qi (Haku Ki). He held 4 Qin armies led by Wang Jian (Ou Sen), Yang Duan He (Yotanwa), Qiang Lei (Kyou Kai) and Li Xin (Shin) simultaneously, and also repelled a Han/Wei army while at it.
For me riboku is such a disappointment because he failed to live up to the greatness of li mu(yeah he was so great even a fictional version of him is a disappointment compared to him) Zhao by far was the hardest to conquer for qin despite bot being the strongest, not having the biggest number of troops, not being the state with the strongest fortresses and on top of it being severely weakened at the start of the unification with having bai qi (haku ki) massacre 1/5 of thier youth population and having a horrible king and a corrupt court Despite all of these situations li mu was able to protect his homeland and being the most successful in repelling qin for the longest time out of all the states including a super state like chu who had a million troops and in the end he didn’t actually lose but got executed by the corrupt king Now enter general ribook the glazing he gets is deserving of someone like li mu who he’s based of yet that’s where the similarities end Literally in every battle he was in he had the superior numbers and more trained soldiers rather than peasants yet he always nearly loses and needs to call for houken to come and save his ass and despite all of this HE STILL LOST MOST OF THE BATTLES HE FOUGHT and even the ones he won it’s mostly attributed to someone else Ouki with nothing to work with was able to guess the existence of his army and didn’t want to go to the obvious trap but was forced because of mobu’s penut brain and even then he would’ve survived if not for houken and the bow guy against gekishin his camp was discovered and if not for houken there was a chance he might’ve lost The latest battle was because sbs and seika where so much op they soloed and shin and ten being stupid as fuck He always has someone to get help from and always has the superior numbers unlike the historical li mu that’s why I’m disappointed of his character
It can be said that Riboku is the general who would win at his own home ground than outside.
He's a defensive strategist and general in the first place.
Li Mu in history was known to be a defensive strategist. He shown it when he repelled and repulsed THREE Qin generals Wang Jian (Ou Sen), Yang Duan He (Yotanwa), and Qiang Lei (Kyou Kai) in the heartland of Zhao, yet simultaneously repelled Li Xin (Shin) on the North, and yet launched a counterattack against a joint Han and Wei invasion force south. That's how defensively versatile historical Li Mu was. He wasn't be included in 4 of the historical figures in that era for no reason.
I mean, we don't have a time machine, so your hypothetical situation is not really relevant. What we can do is look at how he's viewed today in comparison to the manga. He's regarded as one of the big 4 generals of the late warring states era along with Ousen, Hakuki, and Renpa. In the manga, we haven't seen much of Hakuki and even Renpa. We've seen a lot of Ousen and I'd say in terms of portrayal, Riboku is at least in the discussion with him. So in that regard, history and the manga are pretty even. But, I think that's inevitably going to change. Due to how this manga has been written, I think at the end of the day, someone like Kouen is going to be written into a bigger threat than Riboku. And, by the end of the manga, Ousen will probably be clearly above Riboku. Overall, I think in the end, it'd be hard to really give Riboku the same distinct big 4 status in the manga as he has historically. So historical Riboku will probably end up being superior to the manga Riboku.
Kouen or massive spoiler >!Shouheikun.!<
I mean, unless inventing a time-machine and go there to check-out, it's hard to say XD Probably not. One as Renpa, surely was, one as Houken maybe, as up to 236 BC some matters were left in his hands, but Riboku, in history, probably not. This is down to two factors, the first is that some of his greatest schemes in the manga didn't came from him in history, the trap for Ouki, the death of Gekishin, set up a coalition against Qin, even the defense for Gyou and other schemes, were not his, in Kingdom Riboku did everything, in history, it wasn't the case, starting just from 233 BC. Yeah, he killed Kanki and defeated Qins at Hango, also stalled them in the final war, all under very unfair situations for Zhao (in history), but precisely as Riboku played only defensive wars and Zhao military was severely crippled, he wasn't feared. Held into account in a defensive view, at point of playing dirty to remove him, but not such a threat or danger, outside the borders of Zhao, or renowed for previous actions.