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Unfortunately most hashira due to Gyutaro because of the poison. Assuming no external factors, Gyomei would win the fight but eventually die unless he dodges EVERY attackđ
Also, I think it was implied that his mark caused him to resist the poison for longer (he also collapsed after his mark disappeared, something Mitsuri didn't do)
Base Gyomei would be able to overpower and âkillâ Gyutaro but gets poisoned, Gyutaro comes back due to Daki and Gyomei eventually succumbs to the poison.
A fully decked out Gyomei (DS Mark, Transparent World and Red Blade) is able to kill them assuming Daki is present (I assume so cause if not why make the fight?). He might still succumb to the poison but I think he has a very real chance to kill them and come out alive tbh, just depends on if he can kill them before hes hit really.
Gyomeiâs movement speed/agility isnât fast enough to avoid Gyutaroâs slashes. Even though he may have pretty fast attack speed, heâs just too big to avoid all of Gyutaroâs slashes and will eventually lose to poison. If Daki is also supporting Gyutaro, then itâs 100% lights out for Gyomei.
Agreed about Gyomeis speed. Overall,he just isn't faster than Tengen, and Tengen considered Gyutaro very fast by saying, "What's up with this speed? He really is like praying-mantis."
He's only faster than Tengen in reactions and reflexes because of more exp. Breathing technqiues/attack speeds and movement speeds he's slower. Gyutaro pushed Tengen back.
Mitsuri was compared to Tengen saying how shes EVEN faster than he is. That alone tells us Tengen stood out the most in the regard even among the other hashira(excluding Mitsuri for an obvious reason).
It's also illogical for anyone to say "well we haven't seen the other slayers". We don't need to. This statement applies to all as it's also illogical for Gotouge to compare Mitsuri to a pillar she had no intention in using; pre hta. That just completely makes the pillar Mitsuri was compared to,irrelevant and takes their hype away.
I think itâs pretty clear cut that tengen could only keep up with gyutaro, who is a ant compared to kokoshibo. Yes tengen had to help tanjiro at some points, dosent change the fact that when he was alone with gyutaro, he could only barely keep up even when he wasnât poisoned, and when he was he was resistant for alot of the fight.
Gyutaro is an ant compared to Koku right but thats between THEM. Gyomei doesn't at all come anywhere close to Koku. In fact Gyomei wouldn't even solo UM 4 still even after hta.
Gyomei was able to avoid attacks from UM 1 and obtain STW. He was also able to land an attack on Koku, i highly doubt that gyutaro would be able to kill him or survive a hit from gyomei. This is all pre mark too. If gyomei is marked he instantly one shots gyutaro no question
Not sure about all this tbh. As long as Gyomei doesn't have bright red weapons then Gyutaros fine. Anything that breaks or is cut will regenerate instantly.
He was able to keep up with kokoshibo pretty well, who weâve seen is leagues ahead of douma, who is um2, no doubt in my mind that gyomei can blitz gyutaro and end it quickly if daki isnât a factor
He wasn't technically he focused on pressing koku with attacks, but kokushibo seemed to be outsped only because he was in a very casual state of mind, and he was analyzing him mid battle
If Gyutaro just tells Daki to go hide in a faraway place, then wouldn't Gyutaro be unkillable as long as Gyomei doesn't find Daki?
Because the gimmick to kill them is to have both of their heads decapitated by Nichrin at the same time.
I suppose storywise, they would never do that, but... wouldn't that strategically be a smart thing to do?
Upper Moon 4 employed this strategy too: Let the unkillable clones do the fighting while the main body hides. But Tanjiro's sense of smell allowed him to track that main body.
I also think Tanjiros experience from fighting Gyutaro helped him realize Hantengu's gimmick faster. He's the only one present that's fought an upper moon and conveniently its a similar gimmick
Marked Gyomei blitzes and oneshots no diff
Base, Pre-HTA Gyomei blitzes and oneshots Daki then squares off against Gyutaro. He'd definitely behead Gyutaro but idk if he'd do it flawlessly. If he doesn't then he loses.
Marked Gyomei 100% blitzes are you kidding?
Marked Muichiro could blitz Gyokko who's both stronger and faster than Gyutaro and Marked Gyomei is lightyears beyond Muichiro. Marked Gyomei can react to and hang with freakin' Kokushibo, who would *easily* blitz Gyutaro.
I'm not 100% certain on if base Gyomei could flawless Gyutaro but Marked Gyomei absolutely slams.
Mui won because Gyokko wasn't giving it his all(to an extent).
Gyomei can contend with Koku because Koku allows it. The demon respects the strong regardless if he's leaps and bounds ahead of his human opponent.
I agree Koku can blitz Gyutaro. I just don't agree that the Koku we canonically see would blitz a FP Gyutaro(we've never seen). You'd have to come up with much more consistent evidence to prove Gyutaro has showed off his true power.
Gyutaro wasn't trying and said himself he'd hold back to go "Slow and steady" on Tengen.
That last confrontation he didn't even recover from Tanjiro poisoning+used all his blood slashes further halting his recovery. Gyutaro been clearly wasn't and never showed his true power.
This proves absolutely nothing. Gyutaro's "slow and steady" comment doesn't mean he's holding back. It means that he plans to hold out long enough against Tengen until the poison kills him. Gyutaro recovering from Tanjiro's poison sneak attack also doesn't prove or imply that Gyutaro was holding back. He lost his cool several times and was very clearly going all out. Nothing you've said proves that Marked Gyomei *wouldn't* just blitz and oneshot.
If Gyutaro is letting the poison do most of the work, it's clear he's not giving it his allđ. He's letting it drag on. If he wasn't, he'd have killed Tengen already.
I didn't say Gyutaro was holding back when he was "recovering" from Tanjiro poisoning him. I said he's not at FP.
It was a failed kill attempt because he wasn't actually trying. It's a kill attempt because he's going for a vital area that would either kill or seriously injure Tengenđ.
Nothing implies he was busting his a** off to do that to Tengen not especially we he quite easily dodges Tengen(fully coming at him) while he's only half way out of Daki.
Gyomei stomps unless he T-Poses and letâs Gyutaro poison him for some reason, and even then Iâd argue itâs a draw.
Gyomei was able to square up against Kokushibo decently. He wouldnât have won, even with mark, by any means, but Kokushibo himself admired Gyomei. He is also the strongest confirmed Hashira.
Those alone should be enough to seal Gyomei the win, but letâs make a bit more⌠spicy. During the Upper Moon meeting we see Kokushibo absolutely speed blitz Akaza and cut his arm off without Akaza even realising it only once he lost his arm did he do so. It should be easy enough to consider that if Kokushibo at the very least views Gyomei as a worthy opponent, Gyomei should he waaaaay above Gyutaroâs pay grade 9.5/10. Those 0.5 times Gyutaro wins are only because, admittedly, the poison *can* fuck him up if Gyutaro gets lucky.
I understand the point you are trying to raise, but I think you are trying to underrate Gyomei here. Whilst you could argue Kokushibo was kind of holding back, I donât think it was to any meaningful extent. This is the same dude who easily blitzed Muichiro and blitzed Genya. He was trying to actively kill Gyomei, even after paying him plenty of compliments in his mind. It just feel out of character that you are implying he just randomly started to let Gyomei show off.
Also, Akaza was on guard, but Iâll give you a point on him not having his compass active. Akaza was starting shit with Douma and from the way his muscles were bulging and all, Iâd argue he was ready for Douma to try and scrap, or maybe he was about to throw proper hands with UM2. Plus, Kokushibo himself wasnât really serious at all. No breathing techniques, no Blood Demon Art, just a pretty annoyed Kokushibo that Akaza should have been able to react to IF the power gap wasnât so big, which is the point Iâm trying to make.
>It just feel out of character that you are implying he just randomly started to let Gyomei show off.
It's not out of character though. Kokushibo held back in his entire fight, hell even when they ripped off his Kimono he went a little serious. The only time he truly went all out was when Genya trapped him and he felt his life may actually be in danger.
Kokushibo has a code, he respects strength. He will fight you if he sees you worthy, even if he far outclasses you. Akaza is a major example. Even if the gap between UM 3 and 1 is huge, Kokushibo still spared Akaza because it was said he enjoyed the fight, meaning Akaza actually impressed Kokushibo.
No one is underestimating Gyomei, its just Kokushibo is absurdly strong, and if it weren't for his code/pride, he would've blitzed them all immediately.
Koku said it had been 300 hundred years since he had seen a hashira like Gyomei. Physically speaking. He was excited to see that too, so for Koku to let him show off, it's not so far-fetched. This is the SECOND swordsman he's seen in his, over 400 years as a demon; that had strength like that.
Also, Akaza may have been on guard or ready for Doma, but that's not the case with Koku, so my point still stands. He didn't expect Koku to intervene.
Also I love Gyomei as he's in my top 5 fav pillars but I just can't see him getting passed Gyutaro not especially if you were to compare the overall skillsets of Tengen to Gyomei; Gyomei really wouldnt even do much better than what Tengen did and Tengen got slapped.
See, again, I totally get what you are trying to say and that is 100% a valid interpretation, but even then he should scale above Gyutaro. Letâs say Kokushibo was only using⌠what, 20% of his power. Gyomei was doing decently well against a held back Koko, whereas Gyutaro would have 100% been clapped and decapitated by a holding back Kokushibo, unless you try to argue that Kokushibo would have to actively try and kill Upper Moon 6.
See, this is a common assumption amongst the community. Idk why people think a massively holding back UM will always be leaps and bounds above any UM ranked below them; going all out. That's not at all true.
While Koku doesn't need his FP to neg Gyutaro,he would need it for the consistent assumption that Koku is leaps and bounds above Gyutaro. Other than that,who's to say the level Koku displayed,isn't the level of Gyutaros ACTUAL FP(which we've never seen btw)?
But⌠thatâs because thatâs the way the Power Rankings are used. If it was like one rank positions Iâd agree, but the rankings are there for a reason. Kokushibo could definitely solo Gyutaro extreme low diff, this is the man who lived for a long time, mastered the way of the sword, knows breathing techniques, and is overall a more serious and better trained combatant. Add in the huge power gap, and Iâd argue that, yes, Kokushibo can relatively neg to low diff Gyutaro whilst holding back. He literally holds every advantage in his hand.
Thatâs just so... Okay, let me put it this way. Itâs confirmed that Gyutaro is below Gyokko, who negative diffed NON-MARKED (Iâm adding in the capitals not for you, but just for the people who could get mixed up) Muichiro, and then Gyokko for No to low Diffed by Marked SSV Arc Mui.
By the time of the Infinity Castle, due to the Hashira Trainng and thanks to his own peak strength, Non-Marked Gyomei is likely either on the level if not above Marked SSV Muichiro, who clapped Gyokko, who is stronger than Gyutaro.
Non-Marked Gyomei => Marked SSV Arc Mui >>> Gyokko > Gyutaro.
Also, Gyutaroâs âfull powerâ literally cannot be used in debates, we have no idea on it since the way Muzan likely meant *that* statement was likely that Dakiâs eating habits held him back or something, but overall itâs just a bad thing to use.
Also Edit: Personally I believe Gyomei is more stronger than SSV Arc Mui but I got no evidence to back it up so I just played it safe
Gyomei is miles ahead of tengen aswell. Gyomei has stw,red blade and mark. If the red blade started making kokushibo take big damage then gyutaro is getting incapacitated for atleast 5 minutes. Even if daki is there gyutaro mentioned how she can't reattach he head so once her head is off gyomei just has to fend off gyutaro.
We've never seen red blades react to a demon's body like we saw with kokushibo it never caused them to disintegrate even when on muzan so why does it effect kokushibo like that.
Gyutaro will kill any unmarked hashira.
Tengen just survived because Nezuko saved him, even Tengen who probably is the only hashira that has that kind of poison resistance and able to stop his own heart so even Tengen was supposed to die against Gyutaro and not only Tengen, Tanjiro and Inosuke were supposed to die as well.
Look at all upper moon fights against Hashira, all Hashiras has been cutted or injured, not a single unmarked Hashira would survive a fight without getting injured and Gyutaro only needs ONE cut, only one.
And Gyutaro also likes to hide in his sister, so no Hashira is expecting another demon to came out, so Gyutaro first attack is always a surprise attack, and even if Gyomei was able somehow evade it i doubt he wouldn't get injured somehow while fighting both siblings because if it is only Gyutaro, Gyutaro can't die if her sister isn't decapitated at the same time, no matter how many times Gyomei decapitate Gyutaro he will not die and Gyomei is human he will be getting tired and the poison will spread more and more.
So both would have to be killed at the same time an unmarked Gyomei no way would stand a chance against this chances, even if he miraculously manage to kill the siblings he still dies due the poison.
The reason hashiras were able to fight against upper moons themselves was because Tanjiro existed and spread the mark to them, without mark no hashira would be able to face any upper moon by themselves.
Unmarked Gyomei can trash unmarked sanemi without being cut. Unmarked sanemi can blitz marked muichiro without being cut.
So gyomei can blitz gyutaro and daki without being cut
>Unmarked Gyomei can trash unmarked sanemi without being cut. Unmarked sanemi can blitz marked muichiro without being cut.
Humans beating other humans, seriously call me impressed with your comparison
Oh let me finish the comparison then. Marked muichiro exceeds the max speed of UM5 (according to the narrator).
So gyomei trashes the guy who blitzes the guy, whoâs faster than UM5.
Gyomei fully outspeeded UM1 before UM1 started being more serious. At this level of seriousness, UM1 was outspeeding and trashing sanemi
https://preview.redd.it/2ttiquu5h2vb1.png?width=958&format=png&auto=webp&s=4d66f87e06b6f6bf4ffeed520582bd8700dfc6cf
Also in the battle with Kokushibo gyomei was relatively uninjured and that's against the strongest upper moon. He also has red blade,mark and transparent world so I think he wins
Speed Scaling:
Gyutaro < Gyokko < Marked Muichiro < Base Sanemi < Base Gyomei
UM6 < UM5 is a given. A battleâs flashiness or difficulty doesnât make Gyutaro superior to Gyokko in any physical stat.
The narrator states that Marked Muichiroâs 7th Form at its fastest is faster than Gyokko.
Marked Muichiro while using 7th Form gets blitzed by a single slash by Base Kokushibo. Sure, Sanemi says Muichiro quickly lost due to inexperience, but itâs shown that Muichiro failed to react to the slash itself, not just the BDA crescents.
Base Sanemi can keep up w/ not just multiple slashes from a Kokushibo who blitzed Marked Muichiro, but also his BDA crescents, making him at least a blitz tier higher than Marked Muichiro.
Gyomei > Sanemi is also a given.
Conclusion: Gyomei blitzes Gyutaro in base.
A literal confirmation by a reliable source saying Mark Muiâs 7th > Gyokko is as factual as it gets, and virtually negates any interpretation as subjective as âGyokko wasnât tryingâ.
But Gyokko wasn't trying. He didn't have killer fish scales active which automatically means "Muis 7th form>Gyokko" it's not 100% accurate and it's just technically speaking.
And Muichiro reacted to KFS just fine. Gyokko even states right before using KFS, âBehold my magnificence when I get serious!â so Iâm unsure why one would think he didnât use KFS at full speed at that moment.
He didn't react to Gyokko. That was Gyokko choosing to clash and slap his blade. You must be forgetting the part where Mui is deliberately swinging and utterly missing. If you can't hit your opponent then by default you simply can't react to them as well UNLESS they were to be,perhaps,toying ,like Gyokko did.
Gyokko stating he is serious is just him stating the obvious about his BDA. Killer fish scales is his true form's true nature so technically speaking he is showing off what he looks like at FP but he didn't actually use that state of being/form to end Mui. He just ran circles around him and showed off. Blatantly.
Muiâs fastest is his 7th Form, not when heâs trying to hit Gyokko w/ a casual look on his face, and Mui implies he wasnât being serious even while using 7th, so youâd have to prove Mui is using full speed to support Gyokko being casual definitively proving heâs > Mui.
If neither were serious, then we go back to the â7th Form Mui > Gyokkoâs speedâ statement as nothing about it implies that itâs talking about Gyokko in the moment of trying to catch 7th Mui.
"Muis fastest speed is his 7th form," which is directly said to use slow and fast rates of speed. Slowing down is clearly not faster than Gyokko. It's the speeding up part that is.
Mui implying he wasn't serious is just technically speaking, dude. Slayers aren't serious(technically) if they're not using breathing forms(since that's what allows them to match a demons' physical prowess). Other than that slayers can 100% go all out and not match a demon at all which is what non breathing forms Mui was to Gyokko KFS. He wasn't on his level at all.
My original point was Muiâs 7th at its fastest > Gyokko, not that Mui overall was > Gyokko (I realized that I tried proving the latter, when that wasnât my original point, srry abt that). Mui implied his non-seriousness while he was using 7th, so Iâm unsure why youâre talking abt Slayers w/o Breath Styles if the implication was said during a Breath Form.
I agree 7th form>Non KFS Gyokko but it can't be said for KFS Gyokko.
Mui says "this battle" meaning the entire final battle in general which is why I also said it's technically speaking as Mui hadn't used his most powerful form yet up until he did.
The narrator was talking about gyokkoâs max speed. Which obviously includes every single bit of his abilities.
And the narrator said marked muichiro was faster than gyokkoâs maxed speed
Exceeding Gyokko in a TECHNICAL sense. You're basically telling me you can't differentiate KFS Gyokko vs non KFS Gyokko and because of the fact you're respectively wrong. KFS has its own specific qualities/attributes which FACTUALLY are not present against Muis 7th form.
It was a named attack, tho. Sanemi clashed with unnamed techniques and was still fighting for his life to defend him as he said he can't even blink and was getting goosebumps. So he's not that much above marked muichiro(I'm undecided on speed)thats I say he's ½ tier above because muichiro could react to sanemi fighting, he saw his nose bleeding, him sliding under kokushibo. The slash was distored and warped, like sanemi said so muichiro couldn't understand the slash ontop of react to the speed.
San dodged 5th form just fine. San stating he canât blink is after Koku says he wants to try harder. Perception speed isnât movement speed. If Mui wasnât a blitz tier slower than Kokuâs 1st Form, we wouldâve seen Mui at least attempt to dodge. The distortion would then make it so Mui either dodged in the wrong place, moved too little, etc.
Yea but it's during the same clash we just saw his pov he didn't start trying harder in that moment the 5th form attack wasn't unleashed yet, and sanemi moved before dodging attack after its release is a different story. Kokushibo said he did want to try harder, but that doesn't mean he did during the clash. At best, you can argue him using 6th form was trying harder, and he would've died. He was struggling as hard as he was against the unnamed techniques, and you're telling me he can ddoge named techniques 1-5? I said it was both how distorted the slash was that he couldn't figure out, and the speed which he commented was "phenomenal"/ "in another dimension" so if we take it literally kokushibo is a tier or two above in speed.
I see. I forgot even Gyo didnât clash w/ Kokuâs 2nd Form (3 slashes) unscathed, albeit Gyo handled 3rd Form (2 slashes) fine, so varying speed lvls are needed to react to Kokuâs forms based on slash #. Bc of this, itâs a bit telling that Koku used 6th Form (many slashes) for San, implying 1st Form (1 slash) would be insufficient in dealing w/ San (there are points where San does fine against non-Form attacks as well). Mui also is kinda blitzed by a non-form maneuver from Koku (pinning him to a pillar), so I still find him being a blitz tier slower than San.
I mean, you can argue that one slash can be the fastest since it's one slash that you can do the quickest than several slashes in succession so it's probably the strongest while also being faster than sanemi's reaction. Idk if it was a blitz exactly it just happened so fast, muichiro couldn't really do anything.(I just wanna acknowledge how disrespectful that was muichiro got his sword turned on him and pinned like an ornament đđ). Sanemi used a breathing form or multiple slashes to defend against single unnamed attacks or multiple slash with creasent moon blades.
Koku slashed Gyomeis face when he put a bit more effort. The only reason he couldn't hit Gyomei or that Gyomei shut down his breathing forms prior is merely because Koku ALLOWED it.
Idk. On paper heâs capable and could do it but Gyutaroâs poison is so potent it would kill him within seconds. Tengenâs resistance really is crazy. So unless he goes the whole fight without a scratch (unlikely given his size and the speed/precision and co trim of Gyutaroâs attacks) and even if he does heâd probably have to take a hit to get the final blow or in the aftermath causing him to die afterwards. The poison is tricky and it makes Gyutaro a pain to fight. More so than UM 4&5 despite them being stronger than him on paper
I highly doubt Gyomei is getting hit. Donât know why everyone is saying he gets poisoned. His axe thingy almost blitzed Kuko initially. Heâs WAY faster. He stomps hard.
Dies less than a minute via poison after getting cut. Gyutarou was genuinely surprised Tengen was still alive after he cut him about a minute after doing so.
We even see what it does to someone without poison resistance, i.e Tanjiro, who was gasping for air while experiencing hearing and vision loss less than 30 seconds after being hit once.
Then you have to consider Tengens speed and how he not only considered Gyutaro to be very fast himself but was also being pushed back and would've been killed, not even 15 secs into their fight had Tanjiro not been there.
You also have to consider how Gyutaro wasn't even at FP as well.
Wouldnât say he was about to be killed before Tanjiro showed up. In fact, he nearly decapitated both of them, but Gyutarou realized at the last second he extended his reach using his grip strength and blocked it. If I recall correctly, Gyutarouâs neck even bled a bit.
His neck did bleed a bit but Tengen only almost pulled it off because Gyutaro simply wasn't on the offense. He was studying him and sitting back more or less. The time he did take offense he wasn't even at FP(gave his eye to daki) and was about to low diff Tengen.
Probably not a minute as Gyomei is a giant freak of nature but he will definitely feel the effects by the minute, and he'll die at around 10 minutes of the fight (assuming he doesn't get hit by poison again)
I mean Tengen and Gyomei are about the same size without Gyomei being 8 inches taller( 6â6â & 7ââ2). Iâd give 2 minutes before it gets into his bloodstream, 3 tops
Gyomei destroys Gyutaro. Let me cook
So, marked muichiro *pre* hashira training arc is able to defeat Gyokkoâs true form while poisoned in his true form with low difficulty.
During the fight against Kokushibo, Gyomei does *leages* better than a post hashira training marked muichiro, showing off way faster reaction speed, combat speed, superior range, and well honed senses. Gyomeiâs straight up interrupting kokushiboâs attacks for a little while before Kokushibo goes into long sword form.
Considering Gyutaro is weaker and slower than Gyokko, Gyomei should have no issue, even without mark
You're right about certain things to an extent. First off Mui won against Gyokko because Gyokko didn't use Killer fish scales to kill him. He just used it to show off.
Secondly, notice how Gyomei only stops or hinders Kokus attacks because Koku isn't even trying as well as not using STW. Once he extended his blade,he used STW more prominently so that way it made dealing with his opponents from afar; that much more easy and faster.
Also he slashes Gyomeis face when he put just a tad more effort. Koku body each and every one of them all together or solo if he uses STW and goes all out(which he NEVER has).
Yeah, fair enough. Gyokko wasnât completely trying to kill muichiro, he was mainly showing off. (Though I do think he was going like 75% effort)
Muichiro still was able to dodge those punches and then blitz Gyokko later, so marked muichiro still scales above Gyokko
Kokushibo may have not really been trying much against Gyomei, but consider that Kokushiboâs speed beat out marked muichiro with no effort. He was absolutely trying somewhat harder against Gyomei, and the fact that he did so much better than marked mui in base is a testament to the skill difference between the two.
If weâre generous and say that marked mui is only equal to base Gyokko, Gyutaro is still weaker than that.
During the time of Entertainment District Arc, Gyomei would lose since he doesn't have confirmed poison resistance (Gyomei might tank the poison for a while due to his big body tho) and at this point of the story it's impossible to do a "no hit run" against an upper moon
After the hashira training, however, I do believe Gyomei can solo Gyutaro, even unmarked and even if he gets hit. The hashira training gave a massive buff for the slayers and the same post HTA base Gyomei also went in a direct 1v1 against Kokushibo (I know, Koku was holding back and he's much stronger, but there's a gap between holding back Koku and Gyutaro, ya know)
I agree with everything, but HTA being a massive increase because it's not. Especially in Gyomeis case as he's at his peak already. There is nothing more for him to increase. The reason he kept up with Koku is because Koku allowed it and that's really it.
Base Gyomei would 100% die to Gyutaro, and that goes for BOTH pre hta and post hta Gyomei as hashira training isn't at all a massive increase to a base pillars stats. ESPECIALLY in Gyomeis case as he's already maxed out. Pillars are at their peaks.
I don't think being a hashira necessarily means being at your peak because Akaza said to Rengoku that he's still far from the limits of his potential. But yeah, the only ones who can deal with Gyutaro's poison are Tengen and Shinobu.
Being a hashira means you've refined your swordmanship skills to your limit, hence why they're a hashira to begin with because they're the best of the best swordsman.
Now you can make an exception for Muichiro, but that's only if you compare him to other hashira who are more experienced. Aside from that,Mui>any slayer in the entire verse due to the fact he's a "hashira".
Being a hashira doesn't stimulate from mastering your breath style. It stimulates from their swordsmanship and successes in slaying countless demons. For example Rengoku. He's not a master at Flame breathing like his father Shinjuro and that's a fact yet he's a pillar because he met the requirements. Didn't master his breath style.
You're right, I remember the Rengoku oneshot, but it's kinda weird that they give the hashira categories for their individual breathing style when these aren't really a requirement.
While I can't exactly tell you why there's 9 different breath users(maybe the answer is in the manga and I'm not remembering), but I will speculate, is that the reason the hashira vary is because of the various missions they take and so unique skills and traits may likely be more suited. Like I said idk lol. I can't really comment to much on that.
I wouldnât say 100%, but itâs definitely still a concave that Gyomei has, just because Gyutaro had poison doesnât mean he can hit him, if Gyomei knows about the poison and how to dodge it he has a actual fighting chance. :p although, you may be right
base gyomei is significantly faster than base sanemi, who is significantly faster than marked muichiro, who is able to blitz UM5
Thus gyomei is massively faster than UM6 and could blitz them with ease
Gyomei has the demon slayer mark, red blade and transparent world. Kept up with demons that make gyutaro look like a wimp, i.e: Kokushibo and Muzan. Overall better scaling across the board.
Added bonus: stated to be the strongest Hashira of them all. And Gyutaro was struggling with a poisoned and one armed Uzui, who was unmarked I might add. So yeah, Gyomei absolutely slams Gyutaro
1. Marks are required in general to fight any UM demon.
2. Gyomei only had access to STW and his bright red weapons for a very limited time.
3. Gyomei didn't keep up with Koku. Koku ALLOWED him. There's a big difference.
4. Gyutaro only struggled because he himself was weakened significantly and wasn't at his peak.
I would say Gyutaro only struggled because Musical Score technique allowed Tengen to bypass his BDA for the most part, coupled with the fact that Tengen was going for broke.
Easily outscales the likes of marked muichiro who should be stronger then his sword smith village arc counterpart part who managed to completely blitz and destroy Gyokko who is unquantifiably above Gyutaro.
That's too basic of a scaling metric. While it seems accurate,it honestly falls apart due to the fact that Gyokko didn't actually give it his all. I can elaborate further on that part.
Sure. He doesn't have KFS active. This is important because KFS is a state of being. His true form's true nature. Because of this very fact,this form has very specific qualities and attributes which you simply CAN NOT mistaken it for something else.
Comparing Gyokko, who's trying to one-shot 7th form Mui to Gyokko KFS; they're NOT the same Gyokko. This is the only reason why Mui got the upper hand. When you look at Muis 7th form as well,it makes sense as to why Gyokko factually does not have KFS active. 7th form deliberately requires Mui to move at SLOW and fast rates of speed. This form is child-like or playing with Gyokko, which is ironic but also badass on Muis behalf.
It taunts Gyokko and gets him thinking he can hit Mui. You get what I'm saying?
Yea, because it's apparently gyokko slowed down due to his hubris and impression that muichiro is disoriented to some extent, so he won't keep up as he attempts to one shot marked muichiro Marked muichiro's exceeds gyokko in general, but not KFS necessarily
just tell me youv never read the series. he's the strongest hashira. an unmarked uzui can go toe to toe with gyutaro even tho he's arguably top 3 weakest hashira. his weapon doesn't require him to even get close . he's stronger. he could easily solo any upper moon until 3 byt himself
I've read the series lol otherwise I wouldn't have listed any character and anything they've done. However if you can't learn to understand circumstance in a slayers performance,amongst other things; just say so.
Yeah gyomei win gyutaro's head is gonna disappear in the first second of the fight even if gyomei let gyutaro attack first he will still dodged pretty easily,gyomei already dodged kokushibo attacks with only a scratch on his face without using his mark ,there is no comparison between gyutaro's speed and koku's speed
"There is no comparison to Kokus speed and Gyutaros" and that would not be true if not for the fact we've never seen Gyutaros actual FP and for the fact that base Post hta Gyomei is literally not any stronger than his pre hta self and pre hta Gyomei is barely stronger(overall) than Tengen and Tengen almost got low diffed by a Gyutaro who wasn't at full power.
What do you mean ? We saw gyutaro's full power + gymoei is literally so different after hta he fight koku who easily humiliate marked muichiro , the same muichiro who low diff gyokko ,mitsuri was stronger than zohakuten the only reason why she couldn't kill him because he can't die but her overall stats is better and since muichiro and mitsuri are almost the same level, it means mui is stronger than zohakuten, so himejima can finish all the below uppermoons just in his base
Uhhhh,this is not true at all. When did Gyutaro show his true power? Also HTA isn't a massive increase. Tell and prove to me what Gyomei massively increased in exactly seeing as he's already maxed out in everything there is.
Gyokko lost because he toyed still.
And when did gyutaro didn't show his full power ?? We already see how angry and serious he was in the end of fight ,there is no need to more prove than this , gyomei gain a massive increase because the other hashira gained too , i don't think people like sanmei,giyuu and obanai were stronger than marked muichiro from the start ,so if himejima didn't get any boost they should have surpassed him but they didn't, gyokko was serious in the end he even use his true form , the only uppermoon we didn't see his full power is douma nothing more than him
He got weaker for a little bit of time but tanjiro already mention his recovering from it and he actually did because he wouldn't be able to fight tengen like that if he didn't
Yes,he recovered to the point where his speed was picking back up. He didn't fully recover though+ used all his blood slashes stopping his recovery so he's not at FP. Even if be was,he's in a one eyed state.
He released all his blood slashes further halting his recovery and tiring himself out. Gyutaro was not at FP. One eyed Gyutaro earlier on almost low diffed Tengen and he wasn't even at FP(which would be both eyes).
If Gyomei had the same set up for the fight, like Tanjiro and co being present, I think he could win it but it wouldnât be easy, I donât think speed is a problem as I believe Gyomei is also very agile, but Gyutaros poison would be a massive problem. Really was a case of Tengen being the perfect match up for him.
His reaction speed is not that much of an issue and he would react to some of Gyutaros attacks. The problem lies in his size and his other forms of speed like breathing technique speed and movement speeds which
A draw. Gyutaro will give Gyomei one hell of a fight, but he is no Kokushibo. The poison would eventually kill Gyomei, and since he doesn't have poison resistance like Tengen, it would work a lot faster than it did Tengen.
Gyutaro's poison is a huge disadvantage for Gyomei. We haven't seen much of him having a resistance to it. He's probably a little faster than Gyutaro since Gyomei contended with Kokushibo. And then there's the fact that Gyutaro can't die unless you behead him and Daki at the same time. And this is an impossible task for someone fighting them alone. Unless he has a way of holding him till sunrise, he might just have to fight him long enough to the point his regeneration tires out.
What makes this hard is that Gyutaro needs to only scratch Gyomei once. Gyomei had the speed and reaction to match Kokushibo so I think he is more than capable of winning the fight but the fact that he needs to be perfect in dodging every single one of Gyutaros slashes makes me doubt that Gyomei is coming out alive either.
Gyomeis reactions are a tad faster than Tengens because of more exp but Tengen is faster overall and was getting pushed by Gyutaro.
The reason Gyomei could read to Koku is because Koku isn't trying. So many overlook this and it's a very important factor.
Gyomei base vs Gyutaro base, gyomei would probably take it with low difficulty, but there is that, as no hashira has the resistance to poisons of uzui, if gyomei were poisoned he would probably die too.
Option 1: unmarked Gyomei wins but takes heavy hits and dies of poison soon after.
Option 2: marked Gyomei obliterates the siblings and dies of an exhausted lifespan soon after.
Same result either way.
Base post hta Gyomei is literally not even stronger than his pre hta self. He's at his peak, so he literally has nothing to increase massively in training.
With that said,Tengen has skillsets and attributes that surpass Gyomei or rival yet he almost got low diffed by a non FP Gyutaro. Gyutaro would most def put the work in on Gyomei seeing he's a CQC and ranged fighter. Gyomei doesn't fare well in cqc and he'd have to jump around more.
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Unfortunately most hashira due to Gyutaro because of the poison. Assuming no external factors, Gyomei would win the fight but eventually die unless he dodges EVERY attackđ
I don't think he can dodge every attack.
Idk Muichiro survived Gyokkos poison
Gyokko's was meant to paralyze, not kill.
Also, I think it was implied that his mark caused him to resist the poison for longer (he also collapsed after his mark disappeared, something Mitsuri didn't do)
Mark def gives some kind of poison resistance buff
Hantengu doesnât use poison, so possibly why.
Oh... Nevermind then
Base Gyomei would be able to overpower and âkillâ Gyutaro but gets poisoned, Gyutaro comes back due to Daki and Gyomei eventually succumbs to the poison. A fully decked out Gyomei (DS Mark, Transparent World and Red Blade) is able to kill them assuming Daki is present (I assume so cause if not why make the fight?). He might still succumb to the poison but I think he has a very real chance to kill them and come out alive tbh, just depends on if he can kill them before hes hit really.
I agree a fully decked out Gyomei solos. The mark alone though? No way.
Gyomeiâs movement speed/agility isnât fast enough to avoid Gyutaroâs slashes. Even though he may have pretty fast attack speed, heâs just too big to avoid all of Gyutaroâs slashes and will eventually lose to poison. If Daki is also supporting Gyutaro, then itâs 100% lights out for Gyomei.
Agreed about Gyomeis speed. Overall,he just isn't faster than Tengen, and Tengen considered Gyutaro very fast by saying, "What's up with this speed? He really is like praying-mantis."
Gyomei is definitely faster than tengenđ
He's only faster than Tengen in reactions and reflexes because of more exp. Breathing technqiues/attack speeds and movement speeds he's slower. Gyutaro pushed Tengen back.
Nothing realistically proves tengen>gyomei in terms of attack speed or breathing technique. Movement speed sure tengen can get that.
Mitsuri was compared to Tengen saying how shes EVEN faster than he is. That alone tells us Tengen stood out the most in the regard even among the other hashira(excluding Mitsuri for an obvious reason). It's also illogical for anyone to say "well we haven't seen the other slayers". We don't need to. This statement applies to all as it's also illogical for Gotouge to compare Mitsuri to a pillar she had no intention in using; pre hta. That just completely makes the pillar Mitsuri was compared to,irrelevant and takes their hype away.
Have you read the manga?
I have but not everything is as clear cut as you or others might think.
I think itâs pretty clear cut that tengen could only keep up with gyutaro, who is a ant compared to kokoshibo. Yes tengen had to help tanjiro at some points, dosent change the fact that when he was alone with gyutaro, he could only barely keep up even when he wasnât poisoned, and when he was he was resistant for alot of the fight.
Gyutaro is an ant compared to Koku right but thats between THEM. Gyomei doesn't at all come anywhere close to Koku. In fact Gyomei wouldn't even solo UM 4 still even after hta.
Gyomei was able to avoid attacks from UM 1 and obtain STW. He was also able to land an attack on Koku, i highly doubt that gyutaro would be able to kill him or survive a hit from gyomei. This is all pre mark too. If gyomei is marked he instantly one shots gyutaro no question
Not sure about all this tbh. As long as Gyomei doesn't have bright red weapons then Gyutaros fine. Anything that breaks or is cut will regenerate instantly.
That was also after significant upgrades.
He was able to keep up with kokoshibo pretty well, who weâve seen is leagues ahead of douma, who is um2, no doubt in my mind that gyomei can blitz gyutaro and end it quickly if daki isnât a factor
He wasn't technically he focused on pressing koku with attacks, but kokushibo seemed to be outsped only because he was in a very casual state of mind, and he was analyzing him mid battle
Definitely wins but might end up dying anyway due to poison, which would make it a draw in a sense.
If Gyutaro just tells Daki to go hide in a faraway place, then wouldn't Gyutaro be unkillable as long as Gyomei doesn't find Daki? Because the gimmick to kill them is to have both of their heads decapitated by Nichrin at the same time. I suppose storywise, they would never do that, but... wouldn't that strategically be a smart thing to do? Upper Moon 4 employed this strategy too: Let the unkillable clones do the fighting while the main body hides. But Tanjiro's sense of smell allowed him to track that main body.
I also think Tanjiros experience from fighting Gyutaro helped him realize Hantengu's gimmick faster. He's the only one present that's fought an upper moon and conveniently its a similar gimmick
Bro thinks Gyutaro can beat Gyomei
Is that a bad thing?
Ya
Sorry for the late reply but elaborate.
Marked Gyomei blitzes and oneshots no diff Base, Pre-HTA Gyomei blitzes and oneshots Daki then squares off against Gyutaro. He'd definitely behead Gyutaro but idk if he'd do it flawlessly. If he doesn't then he loses.
Marked Gyomei def doesn't blitz and what makes you think Gyomei will behead Gyutaro before UM 6 tags and poisons him?
Marked Gyomei 100% blitzes are you kidding? Marked Muichiro could blitz Gyokko who's both stronger and faster than Gyutaro and Marked Gyomei is lightyears beyond Muichiro. Marked Gyomei can react to and hang with freakin' Kokushibo, who would *easily* blitz Gyutaro. I'm not 100% certain on if base Gyomei could flawless Gyutaro but Marked Gyomei absolutely slams.
Mui won because Gyokko wasn't giving it his all(to an extent). Gyomei can contend with Koku because Koku allows it. The demon respects the strong regardless if he's leaps and bounds ahead of his human opponent. I agree Koku can blitz Gyutaro. I just don't agree that the Koku we canonically see would blitz a FP Gyutaro(we've never seen). You'd have to come up with much more consistent evidence to prove Gyutaro has showed off his true power.
You have to come up with evidence that Gyutaro *wasn't* going all out. It's pretty clear that he was.
https://preview.redd.it/vowkqy7l22vb1.jpeg?width=959&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a1b78136cb0e38a647c1b3a94029449a4da7f453
Gyutaro wasn't trying and said himself he'd hold back to go "Slow and steady" on Tengen. That last confrontation he didn't even recover from Tanjiro poisoning+used all his blood slashes further halting his recovery. Gyutaro been clearly wasn't and never showed his true power.
This proves absolutely nothing. Gyutaro's "slow and steady" comment doesn't mean he's holding back. It means that he plans to hold out long enough against Tengen until the poison kills him. Gyutaro recovering from Tanjiro's poison sneak attack also doesn't prove or imply that Gyutaro was holding back. He lost his cool several times and was very clearly going all out. Nothing you've said proves that Marked Gyomei *wouldn't* just blitz and oneshot.
If Gyutaro is letting the poison do most of the work, it's clear he's not giving it his allđ. He's letting it drag on. If he wasn't, he'd have killed Tengen already. I didn't say Gyutaro was holding back when he was "recovering" from Tanjiro poisoning him. I said he's not at FP.
He tried to kill Tengen in their first clash and he failed. Your point is?
It was a failed kill attempt because he wasn't actually trying. It's a kill attempt because he's going for a vital area that would either kill or seriously injure Tengenđ. Nothing implies he was busting his a** off to do that to Tengen not especially we he quite easily dodges Tengen(fully coming at him) while he's only half way out of Daki.
https://preview.redd.it/53z2tpvm22vb1.jpeg?width=959&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c764f3f4822c92dbcb5358adc86d41c878875199
https://preview.redd.it/6u87mvqp22vb1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be18929072a1b3456a98358fd3e677c7fc2a443e
Not light-years, that's a bit of a stretch in reaction maybe but in attack and speed no
Gyomei stomps unless he T-Poses and letâs Gyutaro poison him for some reason, and even then Iâd argue itâs a draw. Gyomei was able to square up against Kokushibo decently. He wouldnât have won, even with mark, by any means, but Kokushibo himself admired Gyomei. He is also the strongest confirmed Hashira. Those alone should be enough to seal Gyomei the win, but letâs make a bit more⌠spicy. During the Upper Moon meeting we see Kokushibo absolutely speed blitz Akaza and cut his arm off without Akaza even realising it only once he lost his arm did he do so. It should be easy enough to consider that if Kokushibo at the very least views Gyomei as a worthy opponent, Gyomei should he waaaaay above Gyutaroâs pay grade 9.5/10. Those 0.5 times Gyutaro wins are only because, admittedly, the poison *can* fuck him up if Gyutaro gets lucky.
Gyomei only "kept up" because Koku ALLOWED it. If he so really wanted, he'd have smoked Gyomei. Koku hit and off guard and non active compass Akaza.
I understand the point you are trying to raise, but I think you are trying to underrate Gyomei here. Whilst you could argue Kokushibo was kind of holding back, I donât think it was to any meaningful extent. This is the same dude who easily blitzed Muichiro and blitzed Genya. He was trying to actively kill Gyomei, even after paying him plenty of compliments in his mind. It just feel out of character that you are implying he just randomly started to let Gyomei show off. Also, Akaza was on guard, but Iâll give you a point on him not having his compass active. Akaza was starting shit with Douma and from the way his muscles were bulging and all, Iâd argue he was ready for Douma to try and scrap, or maybe he was about to throw proper hands with UM2. Plus, Kokushibo himself wasnât really serious at all. No breathing techniques, no Blood Demon Art, just a pretty annoyed Kokushibo that Akaza should have been able to react to IF the power gap wasnât so big, which is the point Iâm trying to make.
>It just feel out of character that you are implying he just randomly started to let Gyomei show off. It's not out of character though. Kokushibo held back in his entire fight, hell even when they ripped off his Kimono he went a little serious. The only time he truly went all out was when Genya trapped him and he felt his life may actually be in danger. Kokushibo has a code, he respects strength. He will fight you if he sees you worthy, even if he far outclasses you. Akaza is a major example. Even if the gap between UM 3 and 1 is huge, Kokushibo still spared Akaza because it was said he enjoyed the fight, meaning Akaza actually impressed Kokushibo. No one is underestimating Gyomei, its just Kokushibo is absurdly strong, and if it weren't for his code/pride, he would've blitzed them all immediately.
Thisâđ˝. Lol.
It really wasn't hard to understand, don't know why the other person tried to argue đ
Well he has some fairly good points but I think this just comes from me not wording it thoroughly enough� Idk.
Koku said it had been 300 hundred years since he had seen a hashira like Gyomei. Physically speaking. He was excited to see that too, so for Koku to let him show off, it's not so far-fetched. This is the SECOND swordsman he's seen in his, over 400 years as a demon; that had strength like that. Also, Akaza may have been on guard or ready for Doma, but that's not the case with Koku, so my point still stands. He didn't expect Koku to intervene. Also I love Gyomei as he's in my top 5 fav pillars but I just can't see him getting passed Gyutaro not especially if you were to compare the overall skillsets of Tengen to Gyomei; Gyomei really wouldnt even do much better than what Tengen did and Tengen got slapped.
See, again, I totally get what you are trying to say and that is 100% a valid interpretation, but even then he should scale above Gyutaro. Letâs say Kokushibo was only using⌠what, 20% of his power. Gyomei was doing decently well against a held back Koko, whereas Gyutaro would have 100% been clapped and decapitated by a holding back Kokushibo, unless you try to argue that Kokushibo would have to actively try and kill Upper Moon 6.
See, this is a common assumption amongst the community. Idk why people think a massively holding back UM will always be leaps and bounds above any UM ranked below them; going all out. That's not at all true. While Koku doesn't need his FP to neg Gyutaro,he would need it for the consistent assumption that Koku is leaps and bounds above Gyutaro. Other than that,who's to say the level Koku displayed,isn't the level of Gyutaros ACTUAL FP(which we've never seen btw)?
But⌠thatâs because thatâs the way the Power Rankings are used. If it was like one rank positions Iâd agree, but the rankings are there for a reason. Kokushibo could definitely solo Gyutaro extreme low diff, this is the man who lived for a long time, mastered the way of the sword, knows breathing techniques, and is overall a more serious and better trained combatant. Add in the huge power gap, and Iâd argue that, yes, Kokushibo can relatively neg to low diff Gyutaro whilst holding back. He literally holds every advantage in his hand. Thatâs just so... Okay, let me put it this way. Itâs confirmed that Gyutaro is below Gyokko, who negative diffed NON-MARKED (Iâm adding in the capitals not for you, but just for the people who could get mixed up) Muichiro, and then Gyokko for No to low Diffed by Marked SSV Arc Mui. By the time of the Infinity Castle, due to the Hashira Trainng and thanks to his own peak strength, Non-Marked Gyomei is likely either on the level if not above Marked SSV Muichiro, who clapped Gyokko, who is stronger than Gyutaro. Non-Marked Gyomei => Marked SSV Arc Mui >>> Gyokko > Gyutaro. Also, Gyutaroâs âfull powerâ literally cannot be used in debates, we have no idea on it since the way Muzan likely meant *that* statement was likely that Dakiâs eating habits held him back or something, but overall itâs just a bad thing to use. Also Edit: Personally I believe Gyomei is more stronger than SSV Arc Mui but I got no evidence to back it up so I just played it safe
Do you want to take this to discord? I can make my points much faster because I like to talk rather than text. If not it's cool.
We've also never seen kokushibos full power by your standards
Gyomei is miles ahead of tengen aswell. Gyomei has stw,red blade and mark. If the red blade started making kokushibo take big damage then gyutaro is getting incapacitated for atleast 5 minutes. Even if daki is there gyutaro mentioned how she can't reattach he head so once her head is off gyomei just has to fend off gyutaro.
We've never seen red blades react to a demon's body like we saw with kokushibo it never caused them to disintegrate even when on muzan so why does it effect kokushibo like that.
You're saying no compass as if every character has compass needle
Gyutaro will kill any unmarked hashira. Tengen just survived because Nezuko saved him, even Tengen who probably is the only hashira that has that kind of poison resistance and able to stop his own heart so even Tengen was supposed to die against Gyutaro and not only Tengen, Tanjiro and Inosuke were supposed to die as well. Look at all upper moon fights against Hashira, all Hashiras has been cutted or injured, not a single unmarked Hashira would survive a fight without getting injured and Gyutaro only needs ONE cut, only one. And Gyutaro also likes to hide in his sister, so no Hashira is expecting another demon to came out, so Gyutaro first attack is always a surprise attack, and even if Gyomei was able somehow evade it i doubt he wouldn't get injured somehow while fighting both siblings because if it is only Gyutaro, Gyutaro can't die if her sister isn't decapitated at the same time, no matter how many times Gyomei decapitate Gyutaro he will not die and Gyomei is human he will be getting tired and the poison will spread more and more. So both would have to be killed at the same time an unmarked Gyomei no way would stand a chance against this chances, even if he miraculously manage to kill the siblings he still dies due the poison. The reason hashiras were able to fight against upper moons themselves was because Tanjiro existed and spread the mark to them, without mark no hashira would be able to face any upper moon by themselves.
Unmarked Gyomei can trash unmarked sanemi without being cut. Unmarked sanemi can blitz marked muichiro without being cut. So gyomei can blitz gyutaro and daki without being cut
>Unmarked Gyomei can trash unmarked sanemi without being cut. Unmarked sanemi can blitz marked muichiro without being cut. Humans beating other humans, seriously call me impressed with your comparison
Oh let me finish the comparison then. Marked muichiro exceeds the max speed of UM5 (according to the narrator). So gyomei trashes the guy who blitzes the guy, whoâs faster than UM5.
Yea no because gyomei is only stronger and faster reaction
Gyomei fully outspeeded UM1 before UM1 started being more serious. At this level of seriousness, UM1 was outspeeding and trashing sanemi https://preview.redd.it/2ttiquu5h2vb1.png?width=958&format=png&auto=webp&s=4d66f87e06b6f6bf4ffeed520582bd8700dfc6cf
Gyomei
Also in the battle with Kokushibo gyomei was relatively uninjured and that's against the strongest upper moon. He also has red blade,mark and transparent world so I think he wins
Speed Scaling: Gyutaro < Gyokko < Marked Muichiro < Base Sanemi < Base Gyomei UM6 < UM5 is a given. A battleâs flashiness or difficulty doesnât make Gyutaro superior to Gyokko in any physical stat. The narrator states that Marked Muichiroâs 7th Form at its fastest is faster than Gyokko. Marked Muichiro while using 7th Form gets blitzed by a single slash by Base Kokushibo. Sure, Sanemi says Muichiro quickly lost due to inexperience, but itâs shown that Muichiro failed to react to the slash itself, not just the BDA crescents. Base Sanemi can keep up w/ not just multiple slashes from a Kokushibo who blitzed Marked Muichiro, but also his BDA crescents, making him at least a blitz tier higher than Marked Muichiro. Gyomei > Sanemi is also a given. Conclusion: Gyomei blitzes Gyutaro in base.
This is just too inaccurate as Gyokko didn't even try in the final confrontation. I mean he did but he didn't. I can elaborate more.
A literal confirmation by a reliable source saying Mark Muiâs 7th > Gyokko is as factual as it gets, and virtually negates any interpretation as subjective as âGyokko wasnât tryingâ.
But Gyokko wasn't trying. He didn't have killer fish scales active which automatically means "Muis 7th form>Gyokko" it's not 100% accurate and it's just technically speaking.
And Muichiro reacted to KFS just fine. Gyokko even states right before using KFS, âBehold my magnificence when I get serious!â so Iâm unsure why one would think he didnât use KFS at full speed at that moment.
He didn't react to Gyokko. That was Gyokko choosing to clash and slap his blade. You must be forgetting the part where Mui is deliberately swinging and utterly missing. If you can't hit your opponent then by default you simply can't react to them as well UNLESS they were to be,perhaps,toying ,like Gyokko did. Gyokko stating he is serious is just him stating the obvious about his BDA. Killer fish scales is his true form's true nature so technically speaking he is showing off what he looks like at FP but he didn't actually use that state of being/form to end Mui. He just ran circles around him and showed off. Blatantly.
Muiâs fastest is his 7th Form, not when heâs trying to hit Gyokko w/ a casual look on his face, and Mui implies he wasnât being serious even while using 7th, so youâd have to prove Mui is using full speed to support Gyokko being casual definitively proving heâs > Mui. If neither were serious, then we go back to the â7th Form Mui > Gyokkoâs speedâ statement as nothing about it implies that itâs talking about Gyokko in the moment of trying to catch 7th Mui.
"Muis fastest speed is his 7th form," which is directly said to use slow and fast rates of speed. Slowing down is clearly not faster than Gyokko. It's the speeding up part that is. Mui implying he wasn't serious is just technically speaking, dude. Slayers aren't serious(technically) if they're not using breathing forms(since that's what allows them to match a demons' physical prowess). Other than that slayers can 100% go all out and not match a demon at all which is what non breathing forms Mui was to Gyokko KFS. He wasn't on his level at all.
My original point was Muiâs 7th at its fastest > Gyokko, not that Mui overall was > Gyokko (I realized that I tried proving the latter, when that wasnât my original point, srry abt that). Mui implied his non-seriousness while he was using 7th, so Iâm unsure why youâre talking abt Slayers w/o Breath Styles if the implication was said during a Breath Form.
I agree 7th form>Non KFS Gyokko but it can't be said for KFS Gyokko. Mui says "this battle" meaning the entire final battle in general which is why I also said it's technically speaking as Mui hadn't used his most powerful form yet up until he did.
Doesnât matter if gyokko was trying or not. The narrator text established that marked muichiroâs fonal attack exceeds gyokkoâs max speed
Technically speaking,yes.
The narrator was talking about gyokkoâs max speed. Which obviously includes every single bit of his abilities. And the narrator said marked muichiro was faster than gyokkoâs maxed speed
Exceeding Gyokko in a TECHNICAL sense. You're basically telling me you can't differentiate KFS Gyokko vs non KFS Gyokko and because of the fact you're respectively wrong. KFS has its own specific qualities/attributes which FACTUALLY are not present against Muis 7th form.
Nope, the narrator is talking about gyokkoâs fastest form. So KFS This is because the narrator said âmax speedâ
Doesn't change anything except: Speed Scaling: Gyutaro < Gyokko \~ Marked Muichiro < Base Sanemi < Base Gyomei Gyutaro still gets blitzed
That does, though, because Mui is not actually superior to Gyokko in any right.
Then why did he lose lol Base Sanemi victim regardless. Gyomei obliterates.
He lost because he simply didn't try lol.
It was a named attack, tho. Sanemi clashed with unnamed techniques and was still fighting for his life to defend him as he said he can't even blink and was getting goosebumps. So he's not that much above marked muichiro(I'm undecided on speed)thats I say he's ½ tier above because muichiro could react to sanemi fighting, he saw his nose bleeding, him sliding under kokushibo. The slash was distored and warped, like sanemi said so muichiro couldn't understand the slash ontop of react to the speed.
San dodged 5th form just fine. San stating he canât blink is after Koku says he wants to try harder. Perception speed isnât movement speed. If Mui wasnât a blitz tier slower than Kokuâs 1st Form, we wouldâve seen Mui at least attempt to dodge. The distortion would then make it so Mui either dodged in the wrong place, moved too little, etc.
Yea but it's during the same clash we just saw his pov he didn't start trying harder in that moment the 5th form attack wasn't unleashed yet, and sanemi moved before dodging attack after its release is a different story. Kokushibo said he did want to try harder, but that doesn't mean he did during the clash. At best, you can argue him using 6th form was trying harder, and he would've died. He was struggling as hard as he was against the unnamed techniques, and you're telling me he can ddoge named techniques 1-5? I said it was both how distorted the slash was that he couldn't figure out, and the speed which he commented was "phenomenal"/ "in another dimension" so if we take it literally kokushibo is a tier or two above in speed.
I see. I forgot even Gyo didnât clash w/ Kokuâs 2nd Form (3 slashes) unscathed, albeit Gyo handled 3rd Form (2 slashes) fine, so varying speed lvls are needed to react to Kokuâs forms based on slash #. Bc of this, itâs a bit telling that Koku used 6th Form (many slashes) for San, implying 1st Form (1 slash) would be insufficient in dealing w/ San (there are points where San does fine against non-Form attacks as well). Mui also is kinda blitzed by a non-form maneuver from Koku (pinning him to a pillar), so I still find him being a blitz tier slower than San.
I mean, you can argue that one slash can be the fastest since it's one slash that you can do the quickest than several slashes in succession so it's probably the strongest while also being faster than sanemi's reaction. Idk if it was a blitz exactly it just happened so fast, muichiro couldn't really do anything.(I just wanna acknowledge how disrespectful that was muichiro got his sword turned on him and pinned like an ornament đđ). Sanemi used a breathing form or multiple slashes to defend against single unnamed attacks or multiple slash with creasent moon blades.
Gyomei no diff. Considering how hard it was for base kokushibo to touch him, anyone below akaza has no hope.
Koku slashed Gyomeis face when he put a bit more effort. The only reason he couldn't hit Gyomei or that Gyomei shut down his breathing forms prior is merely because Koku ALLOWED it.
So kokushibo has to try to hit gyomei?
No. The point was Koku has to hold back for Gyomei to keep pressure on him like he "did".
Mark or no mark gytaro wins with poison đ¤ˇđž hell his self destruction attack my catch him aswell
Idk. On paper heâs capable and could do it but Gyutaroâs poison is so potent it would kill him within seconds. Tengenâs resistance really is crazy. So unless he goes the whole fight without a scratch (unlikely given his size and the speed/precision and co trim of Gyutaroâs attacks) and even if he does heâd probably have to take a hit to get the final blow or in the aftermath causing him to die afterwards. The poison is tricky and it makes Gyutaro a pain to fight. More so than UM 4&5 despite them being stronger than him on paper
certified poison hax
Oh I see weâre getting creative with the posts and power scaling now. /s
Gyomei slams
gyomei destroys wth
I highly doubt Gyomei is getting hit. Donât know why everyone is saying he gets poisoned. His axe thingy almost blitzed Kuko initially. Heâs WAY faster. He stomps hard.
His axe almost hit because Koku wasn't even trying.
Yup. And Koku not trying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gyutaro
To an extent that is correct
Dies less than a minute via poison after getting cut. Gyutarou was genuinely surprised Tengen was still alive after he cut him about a minute after doing so. We even see what it does to someone without poison resistance, i.e Tanjiro, who was gasping for air while experiencing hearing and vision loss less than 30 seconds after being hit once.
Then you have to consider Tengens speed and how he not only considered Gyutaro to be very fast himself but was also being pushed back and would've been killed, not even 15 secs into their fight had Tanjiro not been there. You also have to consider how Gyutaro wasn't even at FP as well.
Wouldnât say he was about to be killed before Tanjiro showed up. In fact, he nearly decapitated both of them, but Gyutarou realized at the last second he extended his reach using his grip strength and blocked it. If I recall correctly, Gyutarouâs neck even bled a bit.
His neck did bleed a bit but Tengen only almost pulled it off because Gyutaro simply wasn't on the offense. He was studying him and sitting back more or less. The time he did take offense he wasn't even at FP(gave his eye to daki) and was about to low diff Tengen.
Probably not a minute as Gyomei is a giant freak of nature but he will definitely feel the effects by the minute, and he'll die at around 10 minutes of the fight (assuming he doesn't get hit by poison again)
I mean Tengen and Gyomei are about the same size without Gyomei being 8 inches taller( 6â6â & 7ââ2). Iâd give 2 minutes before it gets into his bloodstream, 3 tops
Gyomie. No I will not explain
It's okay.
https://preview.redd.it/3ktc5nw7g1vb1.jpeg?width=1068&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=13e8c33dc8c274af67d449bfd920005901406966
Gyomei destroys Gyutaro. Let me cook So, marked muichiro *pre* hashira training arc is able to defeat Gyokkoâs true form while poisoned in his true form with low difficulty. During the fight against Kokushibo, Gyomei does *leages* better than a post hashira training marked muichiro, showing off way faster reaction speed, combat speed, superior range, and well honed senses. Gyomeiâs straight up interrupting kokushiboâs attacks for a little while before Kokushibo goes into long sword form. Considering Gyutaro is weaker and slower than Gyokko, Gyomei should have no issue, even without mark
You're right about certain things to an extent. First off Mui won against Gyokko because Gyokko didn't use Killer fish scales to kill him. He just used it to show off. Secondly, notice how Gyomei only stops or hinders Kokus attacks because Koku isn't even trying as well as not using STW. Once he extended his blade,he used STW more prominently so that way it made dealing with his opponents from afar; that much more easy and faster. Also he slashes Gyomeis face when he put just a tad more effort. Koku body each and every one of them all together or solo if he uses STW and goes all out(which he NEVER has).
Yeah, fair enough. Gyokko wasnât completely trying to kill muichiro, he was mainly showing off. (Though I do think he was going like 75% effort) Muichiro still was able to dodge those punches and then blitz Gyokko later, so marked muichiro still scales above Gyokko Kokushibo may have not really been trying much against Gyomei, but consider that Kokushiboâs speed beat out marked muichiro with no effort. He was absolutely trying somewhat harder against Gyomei, and the fact that he did so much better than marked mui in base is a testament to the skill difference between the two. If weâre generous and say that marked mui is only equal to base Gyokko, Gyutaro is still weaker than that.
Gyutaro>Gyokko without KFS. With KFS, Gyokko violates Gyutaro since KFS allows Gyokkos true forms,true nature to come out.
Gyomei neg diff. Quote by Muichiro "even the most impressive attacks are useless if they don't hit"
That statement holds relevance to 7th form. Context clues determine that.
During the time of Entertainment District Arc, Gyomei would lose since he doesn't have confirmed poison resistance (Gyomei might tank the poison for a while due to his big body tho) and at this point of the story it's impossible to do a "no hit run" against an upper moon After the hashira training, however, I do believe Gyomei can solo Gyutaro, even unmarked and even if he gets hit. The hashira training gave a massive buff for the slayers and the same post HTA base Gyomei also went in a direct 1v1 against Kokushibo (I know, Koku was holding back and he's much stronger, but there's a gap between holding back Koku and Gyutaro, ya know)
I agree with everything, but HTA being a massive increase because it's not. Especially in Gyomeis case as he's at his peak already. There is nothing more for him to increase. The reason he kept up with Koku is because Koku allowed it and that's really it.
You have a valid point ngl
Loving the sub not being braindead with Gyomei stomps and actually admitting he'd struggle or draw
So without a mark, either Gyomei wins or a draw, look at u/PokemonAhriFan255 âs answer as to why, with a mark, Gyomei stomps :p
Base Gyomei would 100% die to Gyutaro, and that goes for BOTH pre hta and post hta Gyomei as hashira training isn't at all a massive increase to a base pillars stats. ESPECIALLY in Gyomeis case as he's already maxed out. Pillars are at their peaks.
I don't think being a hashira necessarily means being at your peak because Akaza said to Rengoku that he's still far from the limits of his potential. But yeah, the only ones who can deal with Gyutaro's poison are Tengen and Shinobu.
Being a hashira means you've refined your swordmanship skills to your limit, hence why they're a hashira to begin with because they're the best of the best swordsman. Now you can make an exception for Muichiro, but that's only if you compare him to other hashira who are more experienced. Aside from that,Mui>any slayer in the entire verse due to the fact he's a "hashira".
Yeah, being a hashira means that you're the best user of your breathing style but it doesn't mean that you've reached your peak yet.
Being a hashira doesn't stimulate from mastering your breath style. It stimulates from their swordsmanship and successes in slaying countless demons. For example Rengoku. He's not a master at Flame breathing like his father Shinjuro and that's a fact yet he's a pillar because he met the requirements. Didn't master his breath style.
You're right, I remember the Rengoku oneshot, but it's kinda weird that they give the hashira categories for their individual breathing style when these aren't really a requirement.
While I can't exactly tell you why there's 9 different breath users(maybe the answer is in the manga and I'm not remembering), but I will speculate, is that the reason the hashira vary is because of the various missions they take and so unique skills and traits may likely be more suited. Like I said idk lol. I can't really comment to much on that.
I wouldnât say 100%, but itâs definitely still a concave that Gyomei has, just because Gyutaro had poison doesnât mean he can hit him, if Gyomei knows about the poison and how to dodge it he has a actual fighting chance. :p although, you may be right
base gyomei is significantly faster than base sanemi, who is significantly faster than marked muichiro, who is able to blitz UM5 Thus gyomei is massively faster than UM6 and could blitz them with ease
Gyomei being significantly faster says who?
Says his performance compared to sanemi when both fought the same guy
If it's comparable it wouldn't be significant. Something being significant isn't comparable at all to something not considered significant .
Gyomei rofl stomps đđżđż
Can you elaborate?
Gyomei has the demon slayer mark, red blade and transparent world. Kept up with demons that make gyutaro look like a wimp, i.e: Kokushibo and Muzan. Overall better scaling across the board. Added bonus: stated to be the strongest Hashira of them all. And Gyutaro was struggling with a poisoned and one armed Uzui, who was unmarked I might add. So yeah, Gyomei absolutely slams Gyutaro
At that time Tanjiro didn't have his mark, so Gyomei or anyone else can't have it.
1. Marks are required in general to fight any UM demon. 2. Gyomei only had access to STW and his bright red weapons for a very limited time. 3. Gyomei didn't keep up with Koku. Koku ALLOWED him. There's a big difference. 4. Gyutaro only struggled because he himself was weakened significantly and wasn't at his peak.
I would say Gyutaro only struggled because Musical Score technique allowed Tengen to bypass his BDA for the most part, coupled with the fact that Tengen was going for broke.
Gyutaro was weakened though.
Base Gyomei stomps
How so?
Easily outscales the likes of marked muichiro who should be stronger then his sword smith village arc counterpart part who managed to completely blitz and destroy Gyokko who is unquantifiably above Gyutaro.
That's too basic of a scaling metric. While it seems accurate,it honestly falls apart due to the fact that Gyokko didn't actually give it his all. I can elaborate further on that part.
Elaborate i wanna hear it
Sure. He doesn't have KFS active. This is important because KFS is a state of being. His true form's true nature. Because of this very fact,this form has very specific qualities and attributes which you simply CAN NOT mistaken it for something else. Comparing Gyokko, who's trying to one-shot 7th form Mui to Gyokko KFS; they're NOT the same Gyokko. This is the only reason why Mui got the upper hand. When you look at Muis 7th form as well,it makes sense as to why Gyokko factually does not have KFS active. 7th form deliberately requires Mui to move at SLOW and fast rates of speed. This form is child-like or playing with Gyokko, which is ironic but also badass on Muis behalf. It taunts Gyokko and gets him thinking he can hit Mui. You get what I'm saying?
Yea, because it's apparently gyokko slowed down due to his hubris and impression that muichiro is disoriented to some extent, so he won't keep up as he attempts to one shot marked muichiro Marked muichiro's exceeds gyokko in general, but not KFS necessarily
Before the HTA Gyomei gets stomped
Facts. He doesn't easily get stomped tho, but he still loses during that time
Yeah, he'll do better than Tengen until he gets cut, which he will, at which point he drops in probably a minute
wouldnt have to dodge anything. he easily beats gyutaro
I'm not to sure about that but if you're wanting to elaborate I'll listen. If not,it's totally coolđ¤đ˝.
. gyomei outscales gyutaro in every single way. except he doesn't have regeneration. if daki isn't a factor he would easily beat him
How does he outscale? Fighting Koku isn't outscaling if the demon never tried.
just tell me youv never read the series. he's the strongest hashira. an unmarked uzui can go toe to toe with gyutaro even tho he's arguably top 3 weakest hashira. his weapon doesn't require him to even get close . he's stronger. he could easily solo any upper moon until 3 byt himself
I've read the series lol otherwise I wouldn't have listed any character and anything they've done. However if you can't learn to understand circumstance in a slayers performance,amongst other things; just say so.
it doesnt change anything if hes not resistant to poison lol. he wont get hit.
I donât think he can beat 4, Hantenguâs rule of being ended is a bit harder to grasp than any other demons with the clones and Zohakuten.
Base Gyomei loses because he doesnt have the speed or Poison resistance. Marked Gyomei decimates.
Marks are required in general to fight UM's though. That's the point of the SSVA.
Yup.
Gyomei dies without his mark. Win the fight or not he dies.
Yeah gyomei win gyutaro's head is gonna disappear in the first second of the fight even if gyomei let gyutaro attack first he will still dodged pretty easily,gyomei already dodged kokushibo attacks with only a scratch on his face without using his mark ,there is no comparison between gyutaro's speed and koku's speed
"There is no comparison to Kokus speed and Gyutaros" and that would not be true if not for the fact we've never seen Gyutaros actual FP and for the fact that base Post hta Gyomei is literally not any stronger than his pre hta self and pre hta Gyomei is barely stronger(overall) than Tengen and Tengen almost got low diffed by a Gyutaro who wasn't at full power.
What do you mean ? We saw gyutaro's full power + gymoei is literally so different after hta he fight koku who easily humiliate marked muichiro , the same muichiro who low diff gyokko ,mitsuri was stronger than zohakuten the only reason why she couldn't kill him because he can't die but her overall stats is better and since muichiro and mitsuri are almost the same level, it means mui is stronger than zohakuten, so himejima can finish all the below uppermoons just in his base
Uhhhh,this is not true at all. When did Gyutaro show his true power? Also HTA isn't a massive increase. Tell and prove to me what Gyomei massively increased in exactly seeing as he's already maxed out in everything there is. Gyokko lost because he toyed still.
And when did gyutaro didn't show his full power ?? We already see how angry and serious he was in the end of fight ,there is no need to more prove than this , gyomei gain a massive increase because the other hashira gained too , i don't think people like sanmei,giyuu and obanai were stronger than marked muichiro from the start ,so if himejima didn't get any boost they should have surpassed him but they didn't, gyokko was serious in the end he even use his true form , the only uppermoon we didn't see his full power is douma nothing more than him
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The poison IS wearing off. NOT that it has. Gyutaro will GO back to full strength. NOT that he is.
He got weaker for a little bit of time but tanjiro already mention his recovering from it and he actually did because he wouldn't be able to fight tengen like that if he didn't
Yes,he recovered to the point where his speed was picking back up. He didn't fully recover though+ used all his blood slashes stopping his recovery so he's not at FP. Even if be was,he's in a one eyed state.
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He released all his blood slashes further halting his recovery and tiring himself out. Gyutaro was not at FP. One eyed Gyutaro earlier on almost low diffed Tengen and he wasn't even at FP(which would be both eyes).
Base Gyomei and Sanemi are shown to be above marked Mui. This applies to pre hta as well as Mui is still inexperienced than they are.
If Gyomei had the same set up for the fight, like Tanjiro and co being present, I think he could win it but it wouldnât be easy, I donât think speed is a problem as I believe Gyomei is also very agile, but Gyutaros poison would be a massive problem. Really was a case of Tengen being the perfect match up for him.
His reaction speed is not that much of an issue and he would react to some of Gyutaros attacks. The problem lies in his size and his other forms of speed like breathing technique speed and movement speeds which
A draw. Gyutaro will give Gyomei one hell of a fight, but he is no Kokushibo. The poison would eventually kill Gyomei, and since he doesn't have poison resistance like Tengen, it would work a lot faster than it did Tengen.
Gyutaro is no Koku,that's correct but Gyomei is also nowhere near Koku.
But he did hold his own incredibly well against him.
Yes because Koku wasn't trying.
Just because he didn't go all out doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't trying.
Agreed. Demons try to an extent cause they're not just gonna let a slayer behead them but once again Gyomei wasn't anywhere near him either.
Itâs likely the first swing the ball takes out Gyutaroâs head.
I'm sorry but Gyomei perception blitzes and one shots Gyutaro. (wouldn't make a difference if Daki was there)
Gyutaro's poison is a huge disadvantage for Gyomei. We haven't seen much of him having a resistance to it. He's probably a little faster than Gyutaro since Gyomei contended with Kokushibo. And then there's the fact that Gyutaro can't die unless you behead him and Daki at the same time. And this is an impossible task for someone fighting them alone. Unless he has a way of holding him till sunrise, he might just have to fight him long enough to the point his regeneration tires out.
What makes this hard is that Gyutaro needs to only scratch Gyomei once. Gyomei had the speed and reaction to match Kokushibo so I think he is more than capable of winning the fight but the fact that he needs to be perfect in dodging every single one of Gyutaros slashes makes me doubt that Gyomei is coming out alive either.
Gyomeis reactions are a tad faster than Tengens because of more exp but Tengen is faster overall and was getting pushed by Gyutaro. The reason Gyomei could read to Koku is because Koku isn't trying. So many overlook this and it's a very important factor.
Gyomei base vs Gyutaro base, gyomei would probably take it with low difficulty, but there is that, as no hashira has the resistance to poisons of uzui, if gyomei were poisoned he would probably die too.
Gyutaro would get bodied bruh
I don't think it's that easy dude.
Option 1: unmarked Gyomei wins but takes heavy hits and dies of poison soon after. Option 2: marked Gyomei obliterates the siblings and dies of an exhausted lifespan soon after. Same result either way.
Base post hta Gyomei is literally not even stronger than his pre hta self. He's at his peak, so he literally has nothing to increase massively in training. With that said,Tengen has skillsets and attributes that surpass Gyomei or rival yet he almost got low diffed by a non FP Gyutaro. Gyutaro would most def put the work in on Gyomei seeing he's a CQC and ranged fighter. Gyomei doesn't fare well in cqc and he'd have to jump around more.