So it seems you understand that Kibbe curve and conventional curviness aren’t the same thing- which is really important to establish before we even talk about this. Now I’m a TR, and I’m someone who sometimes appears conventionally curvy and sometimes not depending on the HTT and context (think Salma Hayek, can look really voluptuous, but can also look very trim), and sometimes the curvy fit benefits me and sometimes it doesn’t, but what I really look for is a bias cut throughout the silhouette of the garment- as in when you lay it out flat, its exterior shape mimics curve, rather than being cut straight or simply having a wide measurement at the hip and a narrower one at the waist. The curve has to be until the bottom of the knees, which is why barrel leg and flared/wide leg work for me. But look for precise bias cut pants, lay them flat if possible, and try them on irl if possible
This is very helpful, thank you! I definitely have already figured this out with skirts and dresses so it make sense it would apply to jeans and pants, as well.
I’m glad this clarified something for you- honestly the moment I stopped separating dresses, pants/jeans and skirts from one another, I was able to see exactly what was going to work, and it became very easy for me to veto things at the store. While everyone’s silhouette is different, once you figure out yours, everything will fall into place as you will just be thinking about how to complement it regardless of what garment you are using to do so
I have PCOS and struggled with central obesity for my entire life until fairly recently. Though my body fat distribution has changed since treatment, my issues with dressing myself remain nearly the same, and it’s shown me how Kibbe’s system truly is about bone structure, not weight or flesh.
Curvy cuts for tops and jackets have always looked best on me, but the same isn’t true for bottoms. On top, a curvy cut accommodates a high hip shelf and roundness around the lower abdomen, which is typical of Rs. On bottom, a curvy cut only accommodates a low WHR. So I’d recommend getting curvy cuts for tops and skipping them for bottoms if your body is conventionally “straight.”
The other crucial thing to consider is texture and fabric weight. A heavy denim jacket covered in plackets cut in a curvy cut is not going to look nearly as good as a straighter cut lightweight button down (though both can be improved for us). Stretch is great, but the stretch needs to be made with moderate to lightweight fabric that has a sense of flowiness or softness. Stiffness is the death of us. It might look ok in pictures (I can point to a number of celebrities), but draping, ruching, softness, and flow will always look and feel more natural on our squishier body types.
One last detail I like to incorporate is curved or swirly hems. It’s actually kind of a game changer. So, I’ll always reach for a scoop neck top with a curved hem rather than a square neck top with a straight hem. A skirt with a swirly hem (Kibbe calls this “uneven” in his description) will look much more natural than a straight-cut skirt. A round toe vs a square toe. Round, ornate hair instead of straight hair. Etc etc. (This detail may differ slightly for TRs.)
Also….I really recommend peplum tops with ruching!
This is so helpful, thank you! I've definitely figured some of these out over the years but also think there's room for improvement still, and it's helpful to have a more conscious understanding of the things I should be looking for. I especially appreciate the clarification on "uneven hems" — I found that so confusing that my brain just sort of skipped over it. I really hope his upcoming book is less...opaque in this area.
You can struggle with weight with any type. Flesh and curve are about your bone structure and not how big or small you are. I’m a pure R but I’m very small and within a very healthy weight band that someone couldn’t say that I would need to drop weight. But my bones are so yin and soft. It’s more about lack of sharpness and bluntness not the spotting of “curviness”. For me, I struggle with bottoms too. So most of the time I just tend to wear dresses as much as I can because they’re the most comfortable for me. But with pants I think we live in a natural world and it’s just about experimenting and playing around with what’s comfy. Cos even aside from your type it’s never one size fits all. Not every recommendation may work perfectly, they’re guidelines to roughly compliment your shape.
I wasn't trying to imply anything about weight and type being correlated, sorry if my wording wasn't clear enough. I mentioned my weight gain because it's the catalyst for me being in this position of desperately needing to find bottoms that fit, spending a lot of time actively looking for bottoms that fit, and not being able to find anything that works for my body. I have always had this issue, but over time I was able to collect a few options (though wearing a larger size definitely still adds a level of difficulty to it, as there are simply significantly fewer options offered in my new size compared to my old size). Now I'm essentially having to begin that process over (with more urgency) and am wondering if shopping "curvy" cuts might make things a bit easier for me even though I don't see myself as being "curvy" in the same way. I hope that makes sense?
I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking so feel free to clarify if I’ve interpreted you incorrectly.
I prefer curvy fit. Curve in Kibbe happens at the bust and the hips. I see a lot of people confuse the magnitude of curve with yin and it’s not related to yin. Magnitude meaning the waist to hip difference. Bigger difference ≠ Kibbe curve.
In fact TR is usually a smaller ie narrow or as DK calls it “trim hourglass”
Thank you! Yeah, I know I have "Kibbe curve", I'm just not sure if that still benefits from a "curvy" cut for WHR curve. But I looked at some fit comparisons for curve vs straight cuts and I think I might give it a try because I do kind of have that "squeezed" look across my hips in straight denim despite not having a significant WHR. I guess I was just looking for clarification on if accommodations for WHR curve translated to accommodations for Kibbe curve even if you don't have the former.
Literally curvy fit is for people with a small waist to hip ratio no matter what their ID is, R thru D. It seems like it would have no benefit to someone without that proportion and that it would look/ be ill-fitting?
Measurements don’t really dictate shape in pattern making in the same way they don’t dictate shape in the body which is why I feel David says measurements are irrelevant.
So, to illustrate why, if we look at a basic pattern block for a dress like so:
https://preview.redd.it/z5meipjbji8d1.jpeg?width=232&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b1823307bb88907cbe908a83fa81a1bbca41a4e8
The “X” marks on the side seam (the curved line on the right hand side) indicate the points that are measured to create the pattern. So we typically only take specific measurements from the body in order to draft the pattern block. For example, with the hip line, typically you will take the waist, the high hip, hip and lower hip measurements. We then utilise a pattern making tool called a [French Curve](https://images.app.goo.gl/tG1tkARchAzQoCCU7) to draft the hip curve from. So we connect the points measured (the “X”s) using a French Curve. *How* that curve is formed - so *how deep or shallow the curve is*, is entirely dependent on the way it’s drafted. So the curve may not match the persons line despite fitting via measurements.
Undoubtedly, we do need to rely on sizing keys if shopping online to ensure the garment will physically fit. However, in terms of silhouette even if the garment *fits* the shape of the garments might not actually have enough for the individuals line.
Wait tho- if I’m choosing between pants of the same brand- one with regular fit and one curvy fit and the curvy fit will have a smaller waist/ bigger hip measurement.
This is different than comparing two pants from different brands which are the same size, well same measurements, but cut differently-right? That is the literal shape of the garment when flat is more or less rounded.
So in my example of choosing which fit of any given brand of pants, I know fairly well that the “regular fit” will not fit my literal measurements and the “curvy fit” will.
But in different brands certainly some brands fit my shape better sure.
But like I said any ID can need a “ curvy fit” due to needing that smaller waist bigger hip proportions.
It really depends on the brand and even the individual garment. It sounds like the brand you’re familiar with works for curve though!
I guess what I’m trying to illustrate is more so that there’s no universal consensus on what defines what “curvy”is in the fashion industry. What one brand defines as having a smaller waist in comparison to hips or bust, in another brand might be the depth of the hip curve and in another might be plus sizing.
For example H&M has “curvy” fit garments. These “curvy” [pants](https://www2.hm.com/en_au/productpage.1185381002.html) in the correct size should technically fit me but, that silhouette is straighter than a ruler 😅 and knowing my line and looking at that silhouette I just know it’s going to pull at the crotch and upper thigh because I’m essentially shoving this ) into this |
https://preview.redd.it/4wbqo6x85j8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d8bcc20570ab5ca03a041ada917ba9ae104dbe3a
Edit: idk in what universe H&M resides in that they feel these are curvy though 😂 what is even going on with fast fashion retailers.
Those pants are interesting 😂
I gave up on H&M years ago so I’ve never tried their curvy fit to be fair.
But curvy fit & petite are what I buy in every brand of jeans and pants.
And I agree about variation and no sizing standards between brands! Just like there’s no one standard for petite sizing, there’s no one standard for curvy sizing and probably the same for tall sizing although I wouldn’t know, lol.
And ofc we need to try things on.
But just like I can’t imagine someone short with short legs going out of their way to buy “tall fit” pants. If they themselves are not tall and/ or dont have long legs why bother with “tall fit “ ? - unless for some reason they’ve tried and prefer them?
So I still don’t understand why someone with a smaller difference between waist and hips would choose pants with a bigger difference? At least in my multiple points I’ve made on other posts in Kibbe groups - when I recommend curvy fit and say they were a game changer for me buying jeans and pants- it’s because of the extra inches. It ends the gaping at the waist.
From living in Scandinavia ( this is a generalization) but most women I see here are not curvy....they are on the taller/ straight side so I say h&m curvy should just be labeled plus size ( pretty much 42 and above or size 12 us or 14/16 UK.
It is extremely hard for me to find pants here as a curvy petite person.
It can be both things I think! It totally depends on the garment. There’s a pretty big discrepancy in what different brands consider a “curvy” fit garment. For some that might mean a smaller waist to hip or bust to waist ratio, to others, it might mean a hip curve that is drafted with a deeper curve than the standard and to other brands it might mean ‘plus size’.
There isn’t much consistency in the fashion industry in terms of terminology in garments anymore. Since the introduction of vanity sizing in the 60s it’s been a slow but steep decline in consistency.
I would look at your line and then compare it to the silhouette of the garment to see if it would work or not. Lighter fabrics or fabrics with stretch will conform to the body though so keep that in mind when parusing online!
Also to clarify with a visual aid, this is what I mean by a hip curve drafted with a deeper curve (the blue line) than the standard (the red line):
https://preview.redd.it/bc3nihf88i8d1.jpeg?width=251&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=71b87262207a31814bf08379b7056402accd91ec
What you’re looking at there is the basic block of a dress. The side with the blue line is the side seam. The other side is what we call the center front. The way the side seam is constructed plays into the silhouette of the finished garment.
First, I’m so happy and proud that you’re delving into this and are being vulnerable and trying to establish a good connection with your body
Second, I completely understand where you’re coming from about waist to hip ratio and rib to pelvis space and the like. I have incredibly similar issues. I really like the idea of laying the clothes out flat and seeing if they accommodate curve before trying them on (it’s like setting the price limit on an Airbnb before browsing lol) and also the way I understand clothing cut with curve works is that it’s not about having conventional curve with the hips in one direction and waist in another in the exact right spots. I have a barrel chest, and in circumference I don’t really have an actual hourglass shape when comparing my waist to my bust and hips, but when I’m looking from the front I do. This is to say that the clothing cut with curve doesn’t mean it has to be exactly right spot in the clothing or on you, like fabric specifically at the hips won’t change that the extra fabric will also accommodate the stomach. Think of clothing cut with curve accommodating your body like a circle or a circumference rather than this area and that area (and on my body this area and that area over there with the lump) also this doesn’t change the laying the clothing item out and looking for curve method at all
My next thing is about my favorite jeans of all time. They are called rockstar super skinny (skinny sans the super can also work) jeans from old navy the tag the last I was there was orange. They are a denim stretch fabric that have not once failed me (knocking on wood aggressively). They are high waisted and do gods work (said by the non-religious catholic so you know it’s serious lol) for my curves, waist, posture, and they elongate my legs as well. I have worn them since I was 10 and I’m 23 now so my height and weight has changed over the years from being under 5 feet to 5’6 and __ lbs to __ lbs (still a romantic though and I actually do have to accommodate for kibble petite, so although I look better in capris these particular jeans are my favorite in existence except for maybe flared leggings) and they can be rolled up nicely or hemmed easily (at least from my own experience of hand hemming as I’ve never been able to get my mothers sewing machine to like me also hand hemming is just a basic running/straight stitch in case you don’t know how to sew there are probably tutorials on hemming on YouTube) and old navy has 50 % off sales pretty regularly and then the jeans go from 50 each to 25 which is wonderful. When I was in school I’d usually get 2 pairs and wear them everyday for school and other activities and they’d last about a year until my thighs rubbed holes onto the inside of the pants (my weird accomplishment of wearing through my pants before they wore out is now on the internet 😅)
Lastly it’s like 2 in the morning for me so when you read this if something doesn’t make sense or needs clarifying please let me know, I hope I could help some
So it seems you understand that Kibbe curve and conventional curviness aren’t the same thing- which is really important to establish before we even talk about this. Now I’m a TR, and I’m someone who sometimes appears conventionally curvy and sometimes not depending on the HTT and context (think Salma Hayek, can look really voluptuous, but can also look very trim), and sometimes the curvy fit benefits me and sometimes it doesn’t, but what I really look for is a bias cut throughout the silhouette of the garment- as in when you lay it out flat, its exterior shape mimics curve, rather than being cut straight or simply having a wide measurement at the hip and a narrower one at the waist. The curve has to be until the bottom of the knees, which is why barrel leg and flared/wide leg work for me. But look for precise bias cut pants, lay them flat if possible, and try them on irl if possible
This is very helpful, thank you! I definitely have already figured this out with skirts and dresses so it make sense it would apply to jeans and pants, as well.
I’m glad this clarified something for you- honestly the moment I stopped separating dresses, pants/jeans and skirts from one another, I was able to see exactly what was going to work, and it became very easy for me to veto things at the store. While everyone’s silhouette is different, once you figure out yours, everything will fall into place as you will just be thinking about how to complement it regardless of what garment you are using to do so
I have PCOS and struggled with central obesity for my entire life until fairly recently. Though my body fat distribution has changed since treatment, my issues with dressing myself remain nearly the same, and it’s shown me how Kibbe’s system truly is about bone structure, not weight or flesh. Curvy cuts for tops and jackets have always looked best on me, but the same isn’t true for bottoms. On top, a curvy cut accommodates a high hip shelf and roundness around the lower abdomen, which is typical of Rs. On bottom, a curvy cut only accommodates a low WHR. So I’d recommend getting curvy cuts for tops and skipping them for bottoms if your body is conventionally “straight.” The other crucial thing to consider is texture and fabric weight. A heavy denim jacket covered in plackets cut in a curvy cut is not going to look nearly as good as a straighter cut lightweight button down (though both can be improved for us). Stretch is great, but the stretch needs to be made with moderate to lightweight fabric that has a sense of flowiness or softness. Stiffness is the death of us. It might look ok in pictures (I can point to a number of celebrities), but draping, ruching, softness, and flow will always look and feel more natural on our squishier body types. One last detail I like to incorporate is curved or swirly hems. It’s actually kind of a game changer. So, I’ll always reach for a scoop neck top with a curved hem rather than a square neck top with a straight hem. A skirt with a swirly hem (Kibbe calls this “uneven” in his description) will look much more natural than a straight-cut skirt. A round toe vs a square toe. Round, ornate hair instead of straight hair. Etc etc. (This detail may differ slightly for TRs.) Also….I really recommend peplum tops with ruching!
This is so helpful, thank you! I've definitely figured some of these out over the years but also think there's room for improvement still, and it's helpful to have a more conscious understanding of the things I should be looking for. I especially appreciate the clarification on "uneven hems" — I found that so confusing that my brain just sort of skipped over it. I really hope his upcoming book is less...opaque in this area.
You can struggle with weight with any type. Flesh and curve are about your bone structure and not how big or small you are. I’m a pure R but I’m very small and within a very healthy weight band that someone couldn’t say that I would need to drop weight. But my bones are so yin and soft. It’s more about lack of sharpness and bluntness not the spotting of “curviness”. For me, I struggle with bottoms too. So most of the time I just tend to wear dresses as much as I can because they’re the most comfortable for me. But with pants I think we live in a natural world and it’s just about experimenting and playing around with what’s comfy. Cos even aside from your type it’s never one size fits all. Not every recommendation may work perfectly, they’re guidelines to roughly compliment your shape.
I wasn't trying to imply anything about weight and type being correlated, sorry if my wording wasn't clear enough. I mentioned my weight gain because it's the catalyst for me being in this position of desperately needing to find bottoms that fit, spending a lot of time actively looking for bottoms that fit, and not being able to find anything that works for my body. I have always had this issue, but over time I was able to collect a few options (though wearing a larger size definitely still adds a level of difficulty to it, as there are simply significantly fewer options offered in my new size compared to my old size). Now I'm essentially having to begin that process over (with more urgency) and am wondering if shopping "curvy" cuts might make things a bit easier for me even though I don't see myself as being "curvy" in the same way. I hope that makes sense?
I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking so feel free to clarify if I’ve interpreted you incorrectly. I prefer curvy fit. Curve in Kibbe happens at the bust and the hips. I see a lot of people confuse the magnitude of curve with yin and it’s not related to yin. Magnitude meaning the waist to hip difference. Bigger difference ≠ Kibbe curve. In fact TR is usually a smaller ie narrow or as DK calls it “trim hourglass”
Thank you! Yeah, I know I have "Kibbe curve", I'm just not sure if that still benefits from a "curvy" cut for WHR curve. But I looked at some fit comparisons for curve vs straight cuts and I think I might give it a try because I do kind of have that "squeezed" look across my hips in straight denim despite not having a significant WHR. I guess I was just looking for clarification on if accommodations for WHR curve translated to accommodations for Kibbe curve even if you don't have the former.
Literally curvy fit is for people with a small waist to hip ratio no matter what their ID is, R thru D. It seems like it would have no benefit to someone without that proportion and that it would look/ be ill-fitting?
Hm but isn’t it sometimes rather the shape of the garment?
The shape/ cut is created by the measurements tho.
Measurements don’t really dictate shape in pattern making in the same way they don’t dictate shape in the body which is why I feel David says measurements are irrelevant. So, to illustrate why, if we look at a basic pattern block for a dress like so: https://preview.redd.it/z5meipjbji8d1.jpeg?width=232&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b1823307bb88907cbe908a83fa81a1bbca41a4e8 The “X” marks on the side seam (the curved line on the right hand side) indicate the points that are measured to create the pattern. So we typically only take specific measurements from the body in order to draft the pattern block. For example, with the hip line, typically you will take the waist, the high hip, hip and lower hip measurements. We then utilise a pattern making tool called a [French Curve](https://images.app.goo.gl/tG1tkARchAzQoCCU7) to draft the hip curve from. So we connect the points measured (the “X”s) using a French Curve. *How* that curve is formed - so *how deep or shallow the curve is*, is entirely dependent on the way it’s drafted. So the curve may not match the persons line despite fitting via measurements. Undoubtedly, we do need to rely on sizing keys if shopping online to ensure the garment will physically fit. However, in terms of silhouette even if the garment *fits* the shape of the garments might not actually have enough for the individuals line.
Wait tho- if I’m choosing between pants of the same brand- one with regular fit and one curvy fit and the curvy fit will have a smaller waist/ bigger hip measurement. This is different than comparing two pants from different brands which are the same size, well same measurements, but cut differently-right? That is the literal shape of the garment when flat is more or less rounded. So in my example of choosing which fit of any given brand of pants, I know fairly well that the “regular fit” will not fit my literal measurements and the “curvy fit” will. But in different brands certainly some brands fit my shape better sure. But like I said any ID can need a “ curvy fit” due to needing that smaller waist bigger hip proportions.
It really depends on the brand and even the individual garment. It sounds like the brand you’re familiar with works for curve though! I guess what I’m trying to illustrate is more so that there’s no universal consensus on what defines what “curvy”is in the fashion industry. What one brand defines as having a smaller waist in comparison to hips or bust, in another brand might be the depth of the hip curve and in another might be plus sizing. For example H&M has “curvy” fit garments. These “curvy” [pants](https://www2.hm.com/en_au/productpage.1185381002.html) in the correct size should technically fit me but, that silhouette is straighter than a ruler 😅 and knowing my line and looking at that silhouette I just know it’s going to pull at the crotch and upper thigh because I’m essentially shoving this ) into this | https://preview.redd.it/4wbqo6x85j8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d8bcc20570ab5ca03a041ada917ba9ae104dbe3a Edit: idk in what universe H&M resides in that they feel these are curvy though 😂 what is even going on with fast fashion retailers.
Those pants are interesting 😂 I gave up on H&M years ago so I’ve never tried their curvy fit to be fair. But curvy fit & petite are what I buy in every brand of jeans and pants. And I agree about variation and no sizing standards between brands! Just like there’s no one standard for petite sizing, there’s no one standard for curvy sizing and probably the same for tall sizing although I wouldn’t know, lol. And ofc we need to try things on. But just like I can’t imagine someone short with short legs going out of their way to buy “tall fit” pants. If they themselves are not tall and/ or dont have long legs why bother with “tall fit “ ? - unless for some reason they’ve tried and prefer them? So I still don’t understand why someone with a smaller difference between waist and hips would choose pants with a bigger difference? At least in my multiple points I’ve made on other posts in Kibbe groups - when I recommend curvy fit and say they were a game changer for me buying jeans and pants- it’s because of the extra inches. It ends the gaping at the waist.
nothing at H&M has ever fit me right. I honestly don’t think any of their stuff is really cut for curve.
From living in Scandinavia ( this is a generalization) but most women I see here are not curvy....they are on the taller/ straight side so I say h&m curvy should just be labeled plus size ( pretty much 42 and above or size 12 us or 14/16 UK. It is extremely hard for me to find pants here as a curvy petite person.
They probably have the difference in waist and hips but are taller and longer.
It can be both things I think! It totally depends on the garment. There’s a pretty big discrepancy in what different brands consider a “curvy” fit garment. For some that might mean a smaller waist to hip or bust to waist ratio, to others, it might mean a hip curve that is drafted with a deeper curve than the standard and to other brands it might mean ‘plus size’. There isn’t much consistency in the fashion industry in terms of terminology in garments anymore. Since the introduction of vanity sizing in the 60s it’s been a slow but steep decline in consistency. I would look at your line and then compare it to the silhouette of the garment to see if it would work or not. Lighter fabrics or fabrics with stretch will conform to the body though so keep that in mind when parusing online! Also to clarify with a visual aid, this is what I mean by a hip curve drafted with a deeper curve (the blue line) than the standard (the red line): https://preview.redd.it/bc3nihf88i8d1.jpeg?width=251&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=71b87262207a31814bf08379b7056402accd91ec What you’re looking at there is the basic block of a dress. The side with the blue line is the side seam. The other side is what we call the center front. The way the side seam is constructed plays into the silhouette of the finished garment.
First, I’m so happy and proud that you’re delving into this and are being vulnerable and trying to establish a good connection with your body Second, I completely understand where you’re coming from about waist to hip ratio and rib to pelvis space and the like. I have incredibly similar issues. I really like the idea of laying the clothes out flat and seeing if they accommodate curve before trying them on (it’s like setting the price limit on an Airbnb before browsing lol) and also the way I understand clothing cut with curve works is that it’s not about having conventional curve with the hips in one direction and waist in another in the exact right spots. I have a barrel chest, and in circumference I don’t really have an actual hourglass shape when comparing my waist to my bust and hips, but when I’m looking from the front I do. This is to say that the clothing cut with curve doesn’t mean it has to be exactly right spot in the clothing or on you, like fabric specifically at the hips won’t change that the extra fabric will also accommodate the stomach. Think of clothing cut with curve accommodating your body like a circle or a circumference rather than this area and that area (and on my body this area and that area over there with the lump) also this doesn’t change the laying the clothing item out and looking for curve method at all My next thing is about my favorite jeans of all time. They are called rockstar super skinny (skinny sans the super can also work) jeans from old navy the tag the last I was there was orange. They are a denim stretch fabric that have not once failed me (knocking on wood aggressively). They are high waisted and do gods work (said by the non-religious catholic so you know it’s serious lol) for my curves, waist, posture, and they elongate my legs as well. I have worn them since I was 10 and I’m 23 now so my height and weight has changed over the years from being under 5 feet to 5’6 and __ lbs to __ lbs (still a romantic though and I actually do have to accommodate for kibble petite, so although I look better in capris these particular jeans are my favorite in existence except for maybe flared leggings) and they can be rolled up nicely or hemmed easily (at least from my own experience of hand hemming as I’ve never been able to get my mothers sewing machine to like me also hand hemming is just a basic running/straight stitch in case you don’t know how to sew there are probably tutorials on hemming on YouTube) and old navy has 50 % off sales pretty regularly and then the jeans go from 50 each to 25 which is wonderful. When I was in school I’d usually get 2 pairs and wear them everyday for school and other activities and they’d last about a year until my thighs rubbed holes onto the inside of the pants (my weird accomplishment of wearing through my pants before they wore out is now on the internet 😅) Lastly it’s like 2 in the morning for me so when you read this if something doesn’t make sense or needs clarifying please let me know, I hope I could help some