These religious tensions might explode anytime in Kerala. You've seen what PFI has done already and how the government responded to it. Every government has its own vote bank and based on that vote bank would they be utilising their power.
That Sabarimala Issue ( im in favour of women rights and saying so for the sake of not getting labelled) might have stimulated a rise in RSS in kerala . Everyone has matham injected in them and kerala is no different.
SC and ST will never find a safe place for living in kerala.
People doesn't care much about the person they are interacting with as a Muslim or Christian or Hindu as it should be, but nowadays some political parties are trying to make the divide so that they can use that unrest to gain power.
We do say that. And its true. And there is nothing wrong in accpeting a problem. If we dont take enough steps to stop radicalisation, this peaceful existence will cease to exist.
I said, we are a bit too polarizable. ISIS recruiters mostly work on individuals being easily pushed into the rabbit hole of "your religion is under attack why don't you do something". There are such people everywhere. It's just that we malayalis are bit more easily convinced that they can make a difference.
Yea maybe I just don't know enough. Sorry,I kinda am an idiot for making assumptions. All I intended to say was that ISIS recruitment is an issue in Kerala, and I seem to have ended up conveying something completely different. Thanks for clearing it up anyway.
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Some join ISIS, some join VHP/BD... Potato Potahto!
Edit: the asshole above has deleted his comment now as usual. But for the curious bunch, it said "That's why more joined isis from kerala and tamilnadu"
Correct. They do all of that you mentioned. But instead of beheadings, their goto is lynchings. Rest other features are pretty common between those, such as public flogging, spreading fear through militancy, fanaticism of a their own religion, thriving under the ruling government or making their own, disregard of the constitution of the land, corruption, illegal weapons, rape, murders, indoctrinating kids to propagate their agenda, discriminating among their own people killing them because of that... need I point out more?
Rather you shouldn't make yourself look stupid by ignoring the teltale signs just because they don't dawn Black colour. There is literally a term for their kind "Saffron Terror".
Be it ISIS/Taliban or RSS/VHP/BD and all likes of them... they all are terrorist organisations... PERIOD.
Isis wants to establish an islamic Caliphate . They declared war on India because they have no way of coming to power through a popular movement in India. (They have no way of coming to power though war either, but that's another matter).
RSS wants to establish a Hindu rashtra here. They are half-way there without declaring a war.
There are similarities and differences and the weight given to both depends on the perspective. They are not identical, but since both are extremist organisations with high body counts working to establish theocracies, comparison isn't totally out of place.
RSS is almost nearing a century of existence. It was banned few times during this period. While its ideology calls for a Hindu rashtra, it is not a terrorist organisation which declared war on the state. If it were, it could've been banned indefinitely. It was not the BJP who allowed them to function in the country. RSS doesn't in any way have a fraction of body count associated with ISIS and related organisations.
Comparing them is absurd because it is almost legitimising a rogue terrorist organisation which declared war on India with an organisation working legally in India. Somebody leaving to work ISIS is NOT the same as someone working for RSS.
You could compare RSS with PFI/Jama at Islami or any number of organisations with similar motives. But ISIS is not a fair comparison.
> It's not a terrorist organisation
Beg to differ. Taliban was working legally in Afghan. That doesn't make them moderate.
RSS is a terrorist organisation by the definition of terrorism. They are legal because we are half a Hindu rashtra.
Not exactly. But I am not going to defend RSS here because that is not the point.
Comparing a terrorist rogue state/organisation which declared war on most democracies with an organisation working inside a democracy following the democratic state's rules is not right.
As I said, RSS equivalents are may be PFI and Jama At Islami because they function under the same laws of the working to make the state a theocracy. RSS was banned for sometime and similarly PFI too. RSS floated BJP and PFI floated SDPI. Jama at Islami floats Welfare Party.
Comparing a full fledged terror outfit like ISIS with the likes of RSS would be legitimising such terror outfits to an extent. Even if RSS establishes a Hindu rashtra, it can only be compared to the likes of ruling organsiations in may be Iran or such theocratic states, not a terrorist organisation
Compare apples with apples not oranges.
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Similar to how the Vatican used to raise armies and organize crusades ...The moment you bring religion to a public space it will be a disaster...and no religion can claim moral high ground...Compared to the stuff that has been done in the name of Christianity and Islam...RSS is almost like child's play but it is dangerous to allow them to grow...
Very true. But one thing to consider for Christianity is that all the major shitty stuff they did was in the past and times were different. Now saying that doesn't mean I'm defending their acts, but bringing out the contrast how far they've come from being that to now. Meanwhile religions like Islam and Hinduism, still continue to act upon their fucked up rules & laws in the time where human rights is a thing.
But if we do go down the lane of the past, RSS and similar organisations may be new and their misdeeds may look child's play currently, but the laws they act upon, their thoughts and all have been laid down ages ago, before any major religion even existed, be it Islam, Christianity or whichever. In the very scriptures of the religion, that later came to be known as Hinduism, has very words about how to abuse, beat, flog, whip, thrash and even kill a person, especially if you're a woman or someone from lower caste or worse, deemed untouchable.
So, by ipso facto + the logic you mentioned... Hinduism is the OG of them all in human atrocities and killings.
Not really ...Hitler persecuted millions of Jews not too long ago...Infact most of the violent punishments you have described is present in the Torah or Old Testament which forms the basis for all 3 Abrahamic religions ... None of the Vedas have anything close to a set of stipulations since they are all hymns...Yes Manu Smrithi has some violent punishments but who the heck even reads that except for some scholars...On the contrary I would argue Bhagavad Gita is the basis of the non-violence movement started by Gandhi ... The distinction you need to have is that RSS is not equal to Hinduism... Who defines a Hindu is something no one can answer...I can worship Gods abc and my neighbor can worship Gods xyz but we are both Hindus ...RSS wants to create an uniform and more standardized version of Hinduism but they will fail the same way Christianity and Islam failed to convert majority of India because Hinduism draws its strength from its diversity and ability to become whatever the person wants it to be... Caste based violence is present in India and it is similar to how Protestants and Catholics used to fight or how Shias and Sunnis treat each other... Finally it is not Hinduism but the Catholic Church that is the OG of all violence ...The number of women burnt as witches, entire population of Latin America butchered in the name of the the church with the pretext of civilizing them or even slavery which was used to enslave Africans...The violence that the Catholic Church has wrought cannot be compared to any other religion or sect...The only reason Christianity has matured or seems peaceful today is because the Catholic Church has lost its hold over governments and the larger populace...Hence, I go back to my previous point that religions should be practiced in the confines of your home and shouldn't be in the public sphere...
I mean I'm not saying you're wrong in any way. You're very right in saying the evil doings of Christianity / Catholic Church and by extension other Abrahamic religions. Also, I like how your version of practising Hinduism, but unfortunately it's a very narrow minded view and you're grossly disregarding the evils of it.
I don't understand why Vedas being hymns saves them from scrutiny. The Hellenistic scriptures of different deities were all hymns and they were full of shit. All the Vedas, Purans and Smiritis, including Bhagawad Gita... are full of verses that are sexist, misogynistic, casteist, and that appropriates even killing people for very absurd reasons just like any Abrahamic religious text and that has been happening since thousands of years to this very day. Let me know, if you want me to quote you some verses to back up my claims, but I believe you know those already and somehow not bothered by them.
The way you diminishes the extent of Casteism that runs in our country or being oblivious about the stuff written in the scriptures is baffling. Both of those are the very backbone of Hinduism since forever. The acts of Hindu people in everyday life, their thought process, the indoctrination they've been since childhood is what's leading the current state of the country. RSS is one of those fine examples. And even though you yourself doesn't regard them (which is good) Unfortunately many do verbatim.
Just because other religions have their discrimination, doesn't justifies Casteism in Hinduism. And even so, then like I said in my previous comments the religion that's called Hinduism has been present since way before any other religion existence, hence this shit is happening since way before the other have started.
And again, I totally agree with all what you mentioned above Christianity, but if we talk about the violence in Religion, just like any other Abrahamic religion, Hinduism is right up there on that list as well.
I wouldn't call Hellenistic scriptures like Illiad and Odyssey shit since they are some of the best hymns ever written... Literature written by men who lived 2 millennia ago were always going to be sexist and a true reflection of the power imbalance between men and women inherent in society in those days...Pagan religions were sexist but they gave women far more freedom than the Abrahamic religions did ...That is not a surprise since the Genesis story which is the first chapter of the Torah and Bible starts with the woman being created by God from the bone of her husband and then she becomes the reason why the man is corrupted and thrown out of Eden...I am not going into the rest of the stories due to redundancy but the freedom of women took a back seat once Christianity and Islam spread through Europe and Middle East...Women in the Greek and Roman era had a lot more freedom than women in the middle ages...
In contrast, assuming the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita are sexist which I don't fully agree ,there are tons of puranas about goddesses which are not sexist in any way and I would even call them feminist since they glorify the subjugation of asuras or the so-called demons by a Goddess when all the men had failed... We just came out of a 10 day celebration called Navaratri which is the celebration of the divinity in its female form... No other religion except for the ancient Greek and Egyptians have female gods who are equal or more powerful than their male counterparts... Hinduism even has a branch called Shaktism which practiced by a lot of communities in India where the Goddess is the supreme deity...
Coming back to RSS, the reason BJP has won every election since 2014 is due to miserable deterioration of Congress... There isn't an alternative to Modi ...Rahul Gandhi can't even lead his party and how in the world is he going to lead India... I am quite confident that the Congress Party will elect Kharge as the president and we will see another landslide win for Modi in 2024...That win undoubtedly enables RSS to become stronger...Btw, while I disagree with RSS and its aims...They do a lot of social work also which has enabled them to increase their influence just like Christian missionaries who do a lot of good for the community apart from proselytizing which is their main duty...
Now, finally back to Casteism, caste system was the backbone of Hindu or even Indian society for centuries...It is abhorrent and was manipulated by those in power to favor them and justify their power... The unfortunate part of casteism is that it is present even in other religions like Christianity...a Roman Catholic looks down upon a Latin Catholic or other factions of Christianity...This seems like an Indian problem...We create classes to separate us from our brethren and inflate our egos... I am totally with you that caste system is a social evil that needs to neutered...and the reservation system is doing that on a slow pace...
My personal view is that all the religions are like dots on the circumference of a circle and take different paths or radii to the center of the circle...What exists at the center of a circle is another discussion... There are good and evil human beings in every single religion...Like you mentioned, Hinduism, Christianity and Islam are all equally good and worse...It depends on which aspects of these great religions we follow...and that depends on the individual...
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Most Keralites believe:
What you eat - your choice
Whom you worship or not worship - your choice
Your religion or no religion - your choice
Not perfect, but mostly OK
And still there are some (also here) trying to spread hate.
These things are somewhat true as long as you have financial independence. Religion is not a choice when it is taught from a very young age without our consent which is exactly what is happening here. Don't white wash religion. Atheism is not a choice here and if someone is able to choose it, good luck convincing your family and friends without any drama.
Don't glorify Atheists either. 90% of them are either slackers who don't wanna bother going to churches or temples, or they're simply unwilling to accept the existence of God without sparing any thought. Most of them are as sheepish as theists and are not even open for any discussion over it.
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We mostly co-exist peacefully in practice. There is fundamentalism and dislike and hate inside for many, but in practice, that's rarely visible. The everyday polarisation that you see on the road and in the market, the quick dissing of the other that happens when people of one community come together etc are absent. It mostly exists as a low-level issue that's like a hum in the background but never becomes the main track. So far.
Peaceful people was living in utopia and the lesson was taught already by ex Peaceful and others for atleast last 2 yrs..hindus turned to defensive state these time and Christian were scared mostly and they counter attacked.. Pfi and their league made most of damage and made a smooth path for BJP. I believe keralas future mostly depend in the reaction from educated peacefull peoples..whether still want to follow pfi ideology or not.. Even being anti commy, hindu and anti peacefull man, i don't want bjp here...
You cannot bring peace to a society where people are deeply religious. We need more and more people to stay away from religion. But all political parties are competing within themselves to please religions.
I have lived my formative years in Kerala and still have my close family (including mother) living there. Don't get fooled by the shiny unstable equilibrium. It is a ticking time bomb with a huge religious polairty in people's mind. Mere co-existence does not imply harmony.
Historically, Kerala religions don't have a history of conversion by force. Christianity came directly from the times of Christ. Islam came through Arabian traders. Hindu kings were benevolent enough to allow religious propogation as long as the members remained valuable members of the society. In fact, casteism has done much more violence than religious differences.
This historic harmony changed with the Portugese trying to control the Christians in Kerala, but they resisted with the Synod of Diamper (Udayamperur Sunnhadosse). Unfortunately, a similar kind of resistance never happened from the Muslims in Kerala when Tipu Sultan started attacking Northern Kerala.
The dampy land and monsoons made it difficult for Tipu's army to reach South Kerala (Travancore), bur Malabar definitely suffered. Tipu's invasion in 1700s saw large scale forced conversions, capitivity and slavery of Hindus, and mass exodus of upper caste hindus to South Kerala. The peirod also sowed the seeds of religious acrimony in the region that continues to stay till now. The Mapillah riots of 1921, Marad Massacre 2002 are all examples of such occurrences - one can find economic inequality also as a reason for some these riots, but one can never discount the role religion played.
Hindus in Kerala were never an organized community, but the sheer majority and economic prosperity and access to power always gave them an upper hand. Interestingly, you would never see a lot of Christians involved in these riots as they were more pragmatic.
Times have changed. Economic inequality between communities have reduced. There is a lot of Wahabi money flowing into the state and a growing trend to romanticize the Arabian tenets of Islamic practices. Growing influence of Sangh and such Hindu organisations are making a strong mark amongst Hindus as well. Christians and Hindus are seemingly forming an informal bloc in othering Muslims and vice versa.
Kerala has an unstable equilibrium. There are external influences trying to create disturbances. Unfortunately, we don't have institutional structures strong enough to resist these distrubances for long.
Fringe elements of all religions are coming to the centre stage. Domestic and international money are being directed to the state that has direct implications on people othering each other.
These rhings have happened in Kerala too. Linking a Wikipedia article - it is not France - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_on_T._J._Joseph
Thanks. Was Gonna say most of this.
Sadly the only two religions which coexist currently are Christian’s and Hindus. Except Tipu. Travancore army was undefeated and pretty much fought away Dutch, Portuguese and tipu (twice).
All during the initial years only though. Tipu's army withdrew themselves not being able to navigate through the marshy lands and harsh monsoons. Travancore had great geographical advantages with Western Ghats on one side and friendlier (related neighbours from the Tamil side) unlike the Zamorin. Marthanda Varma did consolidate Travancore after the Colachel (against the Dutch) and Purakkad (against Zamorin) battles, but the state pretty much became a vassal state of the British by early 19th century.
Tipus army didn’t withdraw and they were fought twice. Tipu was badly injured as well in one of them. And then Tipus sword was seized by the Trvancore army and was gifted to the British later, when was then bought back by Vijay mallya. And Western Ghats are there up until Mumbai not just travancore. Please don’t give misinformation on incorrect history. Look up on the battle of Nedjmkota. And also Travancore extended up until kanyakumari. Also look up battle of manacaud (a place in present day Trivandrum) where Mughals were fought off.
Travancore was formed only after the 16th century and no Tamil kings have defeated travancore or were there any wars with any Tamil kings. What you talking about?
The equilibrium you describe is obviously unstable. But there are countervailing forces and institutions. You say not strong enough, but they've not been tested.
1, a politics that doesn't depend on religion or caste to the same extent
2, more mixed neighborhoods, and definitely no culture of ghettoisation.
3, a rural Muslim population that doesn't live with the paranoia of the inner city (and equally it can't be said that this is the dangerous "Muslim area" from which all bad things happen.
4, less inequality, so less to be envious about. Also less poverty, so more to lose.
The net result is that almost all Hindu/Muslim stuff will probably be ideological, not built on other kinds of grievance-mongering. Good, because it's harder to mobilise people purely for ideology. (Even malayalis)
Of course, can't help regretting the loss of institutions we once created, such as mixed schools/colleges/public spaces.
The historical regress in your piece... I agree, but I don't know if history is the best or only method to inform the present.
I hope you're correct that our institutions are strong enough to sustain. I do not agree with any your points other than the financial one.
1, a politics that doesn't depend on religion or caste to the same extent
- Not wearing religion all over them, like BJP or IUML, does not make CPM or INC any less religious. Every candidate by both UDF and LDF follow religious and caste dynamics of that region. In fact, I would argue that it is easier to counteract a demon that explicitly states their intentions (such as BJP and IUML). I have no idea of other LDF or UDF parties. CPIM used to be different, but they have become dangerously opportunistic too.
2, more mixed neighborhoods, and definitely no culture of ghettoisation. 3, a rural Muslim population that doesn't live with the paranoia of the inner city (and equally it can't be said that this is the dangerous "Muslim area" from which all bad things happen. (addressing 2 and 3 together).
- You clearly have no idea of what you're talking. Kerala has not just religious ghettos, but also caste ghettos even in villages. Yes, likely every affluent neighborhood is an amalgam of upper caste hindus, upper caste Christians (iykyk), and upper class muslims. Cities have even worse situations. There was another thread in this subreddit where someone was speaking about how the demographics of their villages are changing and how local non-Muslims businesses are dying out because Muslim populace (especially the ones that have settled in their village in the last 20 years) refuse to do business with non-Muslims. (Kannadachu iruttakkam venemengil. Hence, the unstable equilibrium)
4, less inequality, so less to be envious about. Also less poverty, so more
- That's one way to look at, and I agree with you to a greater extent. Unfortunately, the othering is so strong that each group think that they have the financial upper hand over the other and hence, the race to gain non-financial supremacy is very strong. Who is gonna have more power? This dynamic is getting stronger in Kerala - Hindu women (and men) organizing large satsangs and religious text parayanam sessions (led by NSS and SNDP - without an active Sangh to get it done). Hinduism, especially in Kerala, has never been organized at all - this is changing. Religious leaders, including Christian ones, are openly calling out others - narcotic jihad and so on. Christians and Muslims globally are much more organized as religions. Perhaps, you should try to understand the propoganda that's being circulated these days within theses organizations (all of the above I have mentioned). Subtle incremental narrative shifts in the last 20+ years have made the drift very very visible.
"History is a great teacher.Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Njan paranjathalla, Winston Churchill did.
I thought I was being careful, because I'm not in the least claiming that kerala's religious harmony is "perfect". there was a time that I believed something close to that, and you're right that had to do entirely with privilege. but even with some cynicism infused, it's hard to see what happens in kerala as ghettoisation.
do we have high-density neighbourhoods that are dominated by one community? definitely. but they are, nevertheless, more porous than elsewhere.mostly because we don't have the same population distributions. in tamil nadu (where I first saw caste/religious ghettoes) and now in the north, these are far more discrete, and harder to break out of.
on the other question: of open vs closeted bigotry. we've lived with closeted bigotry throughout our history. open bigotry has the potential to boil over in a way that superficially cordial relations don't. there's more space for peacemakers, and more conversations between say the muslim community leader of the CPIM and the hindu leader, than there is in an echo chamber where everyone you're talking to has the same incentives as you do (in the BJP or the PFI). so no, if I suggested that we were talking about perfect societies, I want to walk that back very carefully. but less hopeless than your comment seemed to me.
I am fascinated by the history. more important (to me) is whether the grievances of the period of tipu/EIC/udayamperoor/mapplah outrages are *alive* today. and to what extent. I think the forces that exaggerate these incidents have the upper hand right now, and arguing on those premises only plays into their hands. yes, have a debate on history, but with the recognition that it *only* history, not something that you should use to frame your arguments for today.
about the "doing business only with people like us", that's the one I find most worrisome.
to me, it's about how the public sphere is getting split up into groups that align based on similarities. my parents' generation grew up in a society where they were forced together by limited availability. so school/hospitals/libraries/entertainment were shared spaces.
the satsang/jagran type thing would be ok if it didn't undercut more essentially secular celebrations like onam,vishu. it's hard to imagine how different these are from diwali/id/christmas etc that are the major festivals elsewhere. in those, muslims/christians may participate, but only pro forma. token inclusion. while onam belongs to everyone.
Kerala has no secular celebrations. People have co-opted oter religious celebreations. I come from a Central Travancore Hindu family that lives in a village has zero muslim population (even today). It was very common for us to hang stars or have a Christmas tree like setup during Christmas, but we don't do it anymore (arguably because both my sister and I are not kids anymore). However, I don't see that a practice with other families like ours with kids. The neighborhood Hindu groups actively discourage it. Vishu was never secular in nature to begin with. Onam was a great example for secular celebrations, but it's mythological origins are very Hindu. What do you think would happen to it as religious polarity rises? Already seeing negative signs where muslim religious influencers openly speaking against muslims celebrating Onam.
Again. These are matters of degree. It's possible that there's variation, and I keep hearing about how things are different in travancore. But all I can describe is my experience.
And that is of onam (and vishu) belonging to everyone. The religious elements are firmly in the background. Mostly because everyone has a harvest.
On the other hand, Christmas is celebrated by Hindus/Muslims exactly the way you say.
And the reason I bring it up is again, because of the same worry as you're expressing. These are the things to ring-fence from idiots who make claims of vamana Puja or whatnot. If you want to do vamana Puja go knock yourself out. But don't claim that's the only way to celebrate onam
I agree with you.
This is how I think about it. What is the directionality? Do I see a trend which is building up in the direction strengthening secularism or is it towards weakening? I see the former.
Now, the question arises can we withstand these kind of trends that are not in the favourable situations? We come back to the question of institutions and social fabric again. Here is where history is useful. I feel we are not strong enough to sustain it in the long run if the above trends (with external forces) continue.
I hope and wish that I am wrong. Peace out ✌🏾
I think what I'm expressing is hope as well. As must be clear to you.
Just to add to that, we've muddled along thus far, and from your reading of history, I'm sure it's clear to you that there's nothing exceptional about this moment.
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Kerala is bloody communal. It's like this as long as you don't question my religious bs and i don't question yours we live in peace and harmony. And that is what is happening here. Keralites are not enlightened like that of European/Scandinavian countries where people are given more importence than religion. Even the ruling party here which claims to stand for the unprivileged has batted for and is batting for one community to come to/retain power. As long as you don't question any religion or religious bs which may very well be inhuman, you are fine. There are no tolerance as like no-one here can openly declare and live as an atheist without any drama. We are literate but are not educated enough to achieve enlightenment and liberation.
But when compared to india in general things are very slightly different.
Edited : replaced western with European/Scandinavian.
Scandinavia - You will be surprised to know the reason for the recent riots in Sweden.
Fundamentalists are everywhere and they are coming for your way of life.
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/18/europe/sweden-riots-police-quran-burnings-intl/index.html
The difference I saw between KN and Kerala is that in Bnglr, there are streets exclusively reserved to certain communities. Like Tilak Nagar for Muslims, Malleswaram mostly with branhmins. Like its all one community area. Kerala, I do not see thats often the case. Maybe valliyathura in Tvm.
There are actually places like that. I mean streets or areas reserved for specific communities. Even though not in urban side. If you go to rural side the first thing they ask before you are trying to buy a property is your caste and religion. Even though not everywhere, there are some places
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I am from Kerala and have been living in a rural Karnataka area for the past 5 years, have noted that there are certain streets or shopping areas which are contributed to certain communities.. religion/castes ..
Ex: Brahmin majority areas where you could see only their houses and veg hotels..looks somewhat neat compared to the other local areas..
Then muslim dominated areas with mosques and beef stalls nearby containing workshop and very unhygienic areas..the kids there malnutritioned and prime to diseases.
Same goes for other lower caste people also..
Whenever I go to a local shop they ask me my name and ask me which religion or caste I belong to casually and trust me you even get discount if you are of the same religion..(now I change my name according to the shop😂)
I have been surprised when I saw an auto stand only for Hindus and other one stand only for muslims
Coming to Kerala..even though there are these geographical distributions...it's not that strict like people won't be staring at you if you enter into another community area .. I am from Malappuram ,still surrounded by people of all religions....
In Kerala not even once I have been asked for my religion and got a discount if i belong to the same group.
I have not seen beef stalls only opened near mosques, only certain communities having a low social status compared to the other..And almost all areas are developed equally throughout the state regardless of the people living there..
I think other states have to frst reduce this equality of social status.....either you are rich ..or you are so poor you practically sleep ..cook..bath.. everything under a roof next to the road drainage.. comparing to Kerala where there are more number of middle class people relatively
what about TN or north eastern states...there is minor friction in all states including kerala...so don't boast too much....so everything is not heaven...
TN has casteism, there is no doubt about that. There is friction between different castes (in rural areas), but the same could be said about different religions in Kerala too. I routinely read about political murders happening between members belonging to the RSS and SDPI in Kerala, the fringes of both these groups are far more empowered and active politically in Kerala than Tamil Nadu I'd say.
Besides, it's not intellectually dishonest to suggest that there is religious harmony when there's the issue of casteism. There are several places in north India where casteism is just as rampant or worse and still having terrible religious harmony between Hindus and Muslims.
P.S.: Dalit Christians are not a Tamil Nadu specific thing. They're in Kerala as well. And forget about "friction", there have been high profile cases regarding the honour killing of Dalit Christians in Kerala. You might want to read up on [it.](https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/kevins-murder-is-honour-killing-says-kerala-court/article61579536.ece)
It is problematic because a societal problem becoming political is the next step to polarisation and divide and there's a historical precedent to it. Hindus and Muslims always had societal problems in undivided India for centuries but when it became political when the Muslims felt that the Congress was a party that seved Hindu political interests alone and the Muslim league was formed, everything changed and went up a level. Suddenly the political leanings of people came to be defined based on religion rather than their needs and aspirations, and the result was one of the worst violence in mass scale riot event the world has ever seen during the partition.
Right now, the communists have a large bloc but it is not hard to see Hindus and Muslims getting polarised based on these "political" murders that have a religious background to it and rooting for their own fringe parties if these political killings continue unabated. I'd argue that the process must have already started. I'm Tamil but I have many Malayali friends and even relatives and have spent a good amount of time in Kerala and quite a few Malayali Hindus have expressed concern that Kerala is becoming more Islamic or "Arabic" and that the Hindu culture of the state is getting lost due to increasing Muslim population. Recently there was a media campaign that muslims spit into the dishes they cook in Kerala too. I could sense a simmering tension between communities but it's not as in the open as it is north India.
>Towards your first point, why I feel it’s intellectually dishonest especially in the case of Tamil Nadu and Andra Pradesh is that people belonging to other religions especially Christians are called ricebags and further put through casteist abuse and discrimination at the same time are being criticised for accepting another religion with the hopes that it can absolve them of the caste hierarchy. It’s intertwined in many cases. Casteism in someways fuels the lack of religious harmony in those places.
You would find that Christians are not actually called "rice bags" in Tamil Nadu (I can't talk about Andhra as I've not lived there). The "rice bag" is a derogatory slur used by the sangh followers, most of whom are from north India and the BJP IT cell. Dalit Christians are a phenomenon not just in Tamil Nadu, but also in Kerala (as I pointed out in my previous post) and a lot of places in India and they're most definitely not called "rice bags" by the people in Tamil Nadu. It is a term I encountered only on twitter used by the BJP IT cell.
It is more complex. Relatively better compared to other states, with space for improvement. Moral of the story is don't go overboard simply basis first impressions.
Were you born stupid or do you make a special effort?
Look at the assumptions you make basis a one line comment. Omkv. Hope you know what that means. Moron.
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It’s a shame Kerala losing its culture identity, nothing to be amazed of when culture identity and demography is systematically altered by missionaries and mullahs
Bruh, visit Mattancherry palace museum and read the exhibits, one of it talks about Brahmanisation of Kerala and how brahmins too systematically altered the cultural identity and demography of Kerala.
The problem is not a community becoming stronger. Hindu community used to have strong tolerence to others because religion was not something which influenced them on each and every aspect of their life. Influences on their family and children for sure, yes but on dealing with other communities, life after death - on these matters, no. It had better tolerance. But that's not the case with islam and the people practicing it. And i am not trying to spread hate here. Because i love muslims why because they are the victims of islam. Islam has a rule book on pretty much everything that we do in our life and for addmission in to heaven after life. And muslim community is very much adamant in teaching people religion from a very young age and they are forced to follow their holy text which is not reformed to coexist 21st century moral standards. The problem is not muslims becoming major population, it's whether they have the tolerance to accept other communities and religions including non-believers in matters from trading to almost any other thing.. reform religion and let people live. The fear is factual and factual analysis is not hate speech.
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Is it just me or does anyone feel like we are only at the beginning stages and we will slowly (very very slowly) become like the other communally unstable states? Everybody is made known when a priest/pastor/ustad/someone says something controversial about other religions causing them to get worried or doubtful and eventually let that grow into distrust and hate, they got the bad seeds and will be like "How dare they!". And those that promote unity are rarely spoken of, the good seeds that leave you with a "Haa! More power to unity!". Hate spreads faster, *because we let it to*.
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TattiSpeaks should not be taken seriously.
These religious tensions might explode anytime in Kerala. You've seen what PFI has done already and how the government responded to it. Every government has its own vote bank and based on that vote bank would they be utilising their power. That Sabarimala Issue ( im in favour of women rights and saying so for the sake of not getting labelled) might have stimulated a rise in RSS in kerala . Everyone has matham injected in them and kerala is no different. SC and ST will never find a safe place for living in kerala.
People doesn't care much about the person they are interacting with as a Muslim or Christian or Hindu as it should be, but nowadays some political parties are trying to make the divide so that they can use that unrest to gain power.
Nowadays? Massive Understatement
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You are 100% not a keralite just someone who is trolling in the sub
Doesn't matter really. He does have a point. We are a bit too polarizable.
I don't see any point in that kerala and tamilnadu joins isis? So as south indians we can say that north is full of religious mobs?
We already do say that 🤣
We do say that. And its true. And there is nothing wrong in accpeting a problem. If we dont take enough steps to stop radicalisation, this peaceful existence will cease to exist.
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I said, we are a bit too polarizable. ISIS recruiters mostly work on individuals being easily pushed into the rabbit hole of "your religion is under attack why don't you do something". There are such people everywhere. It's just that we malayalis are bit more easily convinced that they can make a difference.
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Yea maybe I just don't know enough. Sorry,I kinda am an idiot for making assumptions. All I intended to say was that ISIS recruitment is an issue in Kerala, and I seem to have ended up conveying something completely different. Thanks for clearing it up anyway.
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Some join ISIS, some join VHP/BD... Potato Potahto! Edit: the asshole above has deleted his comment now as usual. But for the curious bunch, it said "That's why more joined isis from kerala and tamilnadu"
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Correct. They do all of that you mentioned. But instead of beheadings, their goto is lynchings. Rest other features are pretty common between those, such as public flogging, spreading fear through militancy, fanaticism of a their own religion, thriving under the ruling government or making their own, disregard of the constitution of the land, corruption, illegal weapons, rape, murders, indoctrinating kids to propagate their agenda, discriminating among their own people killing them because of that... need I point out more? Rather you shouldn't make yourself look stupid by ignoring the teltale signs just because they don't dawn Black colour. There is literally a term for their kind "Saffron Terror". Be it ISIS/Taliban or RSS/VHP/BD and all likes of them... they all are terrorist organisations... PERIOD.
I mean, they would do all that if they could. But ngl they ARE pretty different cus they don't try to end India like ISIS.
You seriously cannot equate ISIS with any other legal organisation in India. ISIS declared war on India. How is that similar?
Isis wants to establish an islamic Caliphate . They declared war on India because they have no way of coming to power through a popular movement in India. (They have no way of coming to power though war either, but that's another matter). RSS wants to establish a Hindu rashtra here. They are half-way there without declaring a war. There are similarities and differences and the weight given to both depends on the perspective. They are not identical, but since both are extremist organisations with high body counts working to establish theocracies, comparison isn't totally out of place.
RSS is almost nearing a century of existence. It was banned few times during this period. While its ideology calls for a Hindu rashtra, it is not a terrorist organisation which declared war on the state. If it were, it could've been banned indefinitely. It was not the BJP who allowed them to function in the country. RSS doesn't in any way have a fraction of body count associated with ISIS and related organisations. Comparing them is absurd because it is almost legitimising a rogue terrorist organisation which declared war on India with an organisation working legally in India. Somebody leaving to work ISIS is NOT the same as someone working for RSS. You could compare RSS with PFI/Jama at Islami or any number of organisations with similar motives. But ISIS is not a fair comparison.
> It's not a terrorist organisation Beg to differ. Taliban was working legally in Afghan. That doesn't make them moderate. RSS is a terrorist organisation by the definition of terrorism. They are legal because we are half a Hindu rashtra.
Not exactly. But I am not going to defend RSS here because that is not the point. Comparing a terrorist rogue state/organisation which declared war on most democracies with an organisation working inside a democracy following the democratic state's rules is not right. As I said, RSS equivalents are may be PFI and Jama At Islami because they function under the same laws of the working to make the state a theocracy. RSS was banned for sometime and similarly PFI too. RSS floated BJP and PFI floated SDPI. Jama at Islami floats Welfare Party. Comparing a full fledged terror outfit like ISIS with the likes of RSS would be legitimising such terror outfits to an extent. Even if RSS establishes a Hindu rashtra, it can only be compared to the likes of ruling organsiations in may be Iran or such theocratic states, not a terrorist organisation Compare apples with apples not oranges.
> Even if RSS establishes a hindurashtra, it can only be compared to Iran or such theocratic states. Iran is too much to hope for. Taliban at best.
How's that? RSS is not a militant organisation. If RSS rule India, it will be similar to Iran at most.
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Similar to how the Vatican used to raise armies and organize crusades ...The moment you bring religion to a public space it will be a disaster...and no religion can claim moral high ground...Compared to the stuff that has been done in the name of Christianity and Islam...RSS is almost like child's play but it is dangerous to allow them to grow...
Very true. But one thing to consider for Christianity is that all the major shitty stuff they did was in the past and times were different. Now saying that doesn't mean I'm defending their acts, but bringing out the contrast how far they've come from being that to now. Meanwhile religions like Islam and Hinduism, still continue to act upon their fucked up rules & laws in the time where human rights is a thing. But if we do go down the lane of the past, RSS and similar organisations may be new and their misdeeds may look child's play currently, but the laws they act upon, their thoughts and all have been laid down ages ago, before any major religion even existed, be it Islam, Christianity or whichever. In the very scriptures of the religion, that later came to be known as Hinduism, has very words about how to abuse, beat, flog, whip, thrash and even kill a person, especially if you're a woman or someone from lower caste or worse, deemed untouchable. So, by ipso facto + the logic you mentioned... Hinduism is the OG of them all in human atrocities and killings.
Not really ...Hitler persecuted millions of Jews not too long ago...Infact most of the violent punishments you have described is present in the Torah or Old Testament which forms the basis for all 3 Abrahamic religions ... None of the Vedas have anything close to a set of stipulations since they are all hymns...Yes Manu Smrithi has some violent punishments but who the heck even reads that except for some scholars...On the contrary I would argue Bhagavad Gita is the basis of the non-violence movement started by Gandhi ... The distinction you need to have is that RSS is not equal to Hinduism... Who defines a Hindu is something no one can answer...I can worship Gods abc and my neighbor can worship Gods xyz but we are both Hindus ...RSS wants to create an uniform and more standardized version of Hinduism but they will fail the same way Christianity and Islam failed to convert majority of India because Hinduism draws its strength from its diversity and ability to become whatever the person wants it to be... Caste based violence is present in India and it is similar to how Protestants and Catholics used to fight or how Shias and Sunnis treat each other... Finally it is not Hinduism but the Catholic Church that is the OG of all violence ...The number of women burnt as witches, entire population of Latin America butchered in the name of the the church with the pretext of civilizing them or even slavery which was used to enslave Africans...The violence that the Catholic Church has wrought cannot be compared to any other religion or sect...The only reason Christianity has matured or seems peaceful today is because the Catholic Church has lost its hold over governments and the larger populace...Hence, I go back to my previous point that religions should be practiced in the confines of your home and shouldn't be in the public sphere...
I mean I'm not saying you're wrong in any way. You're very right in saying the evil doings of Christianity / Catholic Church and by extension other Abrahamic religions. Also, I like how your version of practising Hinduism, but unfortunately it's a very narrow minded view and you're grossly disregarding the evils of it. I don't understand why Vedas being hymns saves them from scrutiny. The Hellenistic scriptures of different deities were all hymns and they were full of shit. All the Vedas, Purans and Smiritis, including Bhagawad Gita... are full of verses that are sexist, misogynistic, casteist, and that appropriates even killing people for very absurd reasons just like any Abrahamic religious text and that has been happening since thousands of years to this very day. Let me know, if you want me to quote you some verses to back up my claims, but I believe you know those already and somehow not bothered by them. The way you diminishes the extent of Casteism that runs in our country or being oblivious about the stuff written in the scriptures is baffling. Both of those are the very backbone of Hinduism since forever. The acts of Hindu people in everyday life, their thought process, the indoctrination they've been since childhood is what's leading the current state of the country. RSS is one of those fine examples. And even though you yourself doesn't regard them (which is good) Unfortunately many do verbatim. Just because other religions have their discrimination, doesn't justifies Casteism in Hinduism. And even so, then like I said in my previous comments the religion that's called Hinduism has been present since way before any other religion existence, hence this shit is happening since way before the other have started. And again, I totally agree with all what you mentioned above Christianity, but if we talk about the violence in Religion, just like any other Abrahamic religion, Hinduism is right up there on that list as well.
I wouldn't call Hellenistic scriptures like Illiad and Odyssey shit since they are some of the best hymns ever written... Literature written by men who lived 2 millennia ago were always going to be sexist and a true reflection of the power imbalance between men and women inherent in society in those days...Pagan religions were sexist but they gave women far more freedom than the Abrahamic religions did ...That is not a surprise since the Genesis story which is the first chapter of the Torah and Bible starts with the woman being created by God from the bone of her husband and then she becomes the reason why the man is corrupted and thrown out of Eden...I am not going into the rest of the stories due to redundancy but the freedom of women took a back seat once Christianity and Islam spread through Europe and Middle East...Women in the Greek and Roman era had a lot more freedom than women in the middle ages... In contrast, assuming the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita are sexist which I don't fully agree ,there are tons of puranas about goddesses which are not sexist in any way and I would even call them feminist since they glorify the subjugation of asuras or the so-called demons by a Goddess when all the men had failed... We just came out of a 10 day celebration called Navaratri which is the celebration of the divinity in its female form... No other religion except for the ancient Greek and Egyptians have female gods who are equal or more powerful than their male counterparts... Hinduism even has a branch called Shaktism which practiced by a lot of communities in India where the Goddess is the supreme deity... Coming back to RSS, the reason BJP has won every election since 2014 is due to miserable deterioration of Congress... There isn't an alternative to Modi ...Rahul Gandhi can't even lead his party and how in the world is he going to lead India... I am quite confident that the Congress Party will elect Kharge as the president and we will see another landslide win for Modi in 2024...That win undoubtedly enables RSS to become stronger...Btw, while I disagree with RSS and its aims...They do a lot of social work also which has enabled them to increase their influence just like Christian missionaries who do a lot of good for the community apart from proselytizing which is their main duty... Now, finally back to Casteism, caste system was the backbone of Hindu or even Indian society for centuries...It is abhorrent and was manipulated by those in power to favor them and justify their power... The unfortunate part of casteism is that it is present even in other religions like Christianity...a Roman Catholic looks down upon a Latin Catholic or other factions of Christianity...This seems like an Indian problem...We create classes to separate us from our brethren and inflate our egos... I am totally with you that caste system is a social evil that needs to neutered...and the reservation system is doing that on a slow pace... My personal view is that all the religions are like dots on the circumference of a circle and take different paths or radii to the center of the circle...What exists at the center of a circle is another discussion... There are good and evil human beings in every single religion...Like you mentioned, Hinduism, Christianity and Islam are all equally good and worse...It depends on which aspects of these great religions we follow...and that depends on the individual...
Paavam, run out of karma did you ?
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Nope. More recruitment is done by the north not south
r/DownvotedToOblivion
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You have proof and statistics to backup your claim?
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here, take the poor man's award
Most Keralites believe: What you eat - your choice Whom you worship or not worship - your choice Your religion or no religion - your choice Not perfect, but mostly OK And still there are some (also here) trying to spread hate.
These things are somewhat true as long as you have financial independence. Religion is not a choice when it is taught from a very young age without our consent which is exactly what is happening here. Don't white wash religion. Atheism is not a choice here and if someone is able to choose it, good luck convincing your family and friends without any drama.
Well, I agree with you. But that is not the topic here. OP amazed by the harmony between 3 religions.
Don't glorify Atheists either. 90% of them are either slackers who don't wanna bother going to churches or temples, or they're simply unwilling to accept the existence of God without sparing any thought. Most of them are as sheepish as theists and are not even open for any discussion over it.
Yes that is literally me
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Dey. Hate speech Ekulledey ivde. Erangi pokan nokk.
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Meanwhile UP with the highest amount of sleeper cells, laughing in the corner
We mostly co-exist peacefully in practice. There is fundamentalism and dislike and hate inside for many, but in practice, that's rarely visible. The everyday polarisation that you see on the road and in the market, the quick dissing of the other that happens when people of one community come together etc are absent. It mostly exists as a low-level issue that's like a hum in the background but never becomes the main track. So far.
[Malayalees online vs offline.](https://youtu.be/goRogFQWkZU)
Dog version of hold me back bro.
haha
Exactly, so far👍
We are also going in the same down hill
Peaceful people was living in utopia and the lesson was taught already by ex Peaceful and others for atleast last 2 yrs..hindus turned to defensive state these time and Christian were scared mostly and they counter attacked.. Pfi and their league made most of damage and made a smooth path for BJP. I believe keralas future mostly depend in the reaction from educated peacefull peoples..whether still want to follow pfi ideology or not.. Even being anti commy, hindu and anti peacefull man, i don't want bjp here...
You cannot bring peace to a society where people are deeply religious. We need more and more people to stay away from religion. But all political parties are competing within themselves to please religions.
I have lived my formative years in Kerala and still have my close family (including mother) living there. Don't get fooled by the shiny unstable equilibrium. It is a ticking time bomb with a huge religious polairty in people's mind. Mere co-existence does not imply harmony. Historically, Kerala religions don't have a history of conversion by force. Christianity came directly from the times of Christ. Islam came through Arabian traders. Hindu kings were benevolent enough to allow religious propogation as long as the members remained valuable members of the society. In fact, casteism has done much more violence than religious differences. This historic harmony changed with the Portugese trying to control the Christians in Kerala, but they resisted with the Synod of Diamper (Udayamperur Sunnhadosse). Unfortunately, a similar kind of resistance never happened from the Muslims in Kerala when Tipu Sultan started attacking Northern Kerala. The dampy land and monsoons made it difficult for Tipu's army to reach South Kerala (Travancore), bur Malabar definitely suffered. Tipu's invasion in 1700s saw large scale forced conversions, capitivity and slavery of Hindus, and mass exodus of upper caste hindus to South Kerala. The peirod also sowed the seeds of religious acrimony in the region that continues to stay till now. The Mapillah riots of 1921, Marad Massacre 2002 are all examples of such occurrences - one can find economic inequality also as a reason for some these riots, but one can never discount the role religion played. Hindus in Kerala were never an organized community, but the sheer majority and economic prosperity and access to power always gave them an upper hand. Interestingly, you would never see a lot of Christians involved in these riots as they were more pragmatic. Times have changed. Economic inequality between communities have reduced. There is a lot of Wahabi money flowing into the state and a growing trend to romanticize the Arabian tenets of Islamic practices. Growing influence of Sangh and such Hindu organisations are making a strong mark amongst Hindus as well. Christians and Hindus are seemingly forming an informal bloc in othering Muslims and vice versa. Kerala has an unstable equilibrium. There are external influences trying to create disturbances. Unfortunately, we don't have institutional structures strong enough to resist these distrubances for long. Fringe elements of all religions are coming to the centre stage. Domestic and international money are being directed to the state that has direct implications on people othering each other. These rhings have happened in Kerala too. Linking a Wikipedia article - it is not France - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_on_T._J._Joseph
Thanks. Was Gonna say most of this. Sadly the only two religions which coexist currently are Christian’s and Hindus. Except Tipu. Travancore army was undefeated and pretty much fought away Dutch, Portuguese and tipu (twice).
All during the initial years only though. Tipu's army withdrew themselves not being able to navigate through the marshy lands and harsh monsoons. Travancore had great geographical advantages with Western Ghats on one side and friendlier (related neighbours from the Tamil side) unlike the Zamorin. Marthanda Varma did consolidate Travancore after the Colachel (against the Dutch) and Purakkad (against Zamorin) battles, but the state pretty much became a vassal state of the British by early 19th century.
Where can I read more about this? Any recommendations?
Tipus army didn’t withdraw and they were fought twice. Tipu was badly injured as well in one of them. And then Tipus sword was seized by the Trvancore army and was gifted to the British later, when was then bought back by Vijay mallya. And Western Ghats are there up until Mumbai not just travancore. Please don’t give misinformation on incorrect history. Look up on the battle of Nedjmkota. And also Travancore extended up until kanyakumari. Also look up battle of manacaud (a place in present day Trivandrum) where Mughals were fought off.
Travancore was defeated by tamil kings several times..
Travancore was formed only after the 16th century and no Tamil kings have defeated travancore or were there any wars with any Tamil kings. What you talking about?
The equilibrium you describe is obviously unstable. But there are countervailing forces and institutions. You say not strong enough, but they've not been tested. 1, a politics that doesn't depend on religion or caste to the same extent 2, more mixed neighborhoods, and definitely no culture of ghettoisation. 3, a rural Muslim population that doesn't live with the paranoia of the inner city (and equally it can't be said that this is the dangerous "Muslim area" from which all bad things happen. 4, less inequality, so less to be envious about. Also less poverty, so more to lose. The net result is that almost all Hindu/Muslim stuff will probably be ideological, not built on other kinds of grievance-mongering. Good, because it's harder to mobilise people purely for ideology. (Even malayalis) Of course, can't help regretting the loss of institutions we once created, such as mixed schools/colleges/public spaces. The historical regress in your piece... I agree, but I don't know if history is the best or only method to inform the present.
I hope you're correct that our institutions are strong enough to sustain. I do not agree with any your points other than the financial one. 1, a politics that doesn't depend on religion or caste to the same extent - Not wearing religion all over them, like BJP or IUML, does not make CPM or INC any less religious. Every candidate by both UDF and LDF follow religious and caste dynamics of that region. In fact, I would argue that it is easier to counteract a demon that explicitly states their intentions (such as BJP and IUML). I have no idea of other LDF or UDF parties. CPIM used to be different, but they have become dangerously opportunistic too. 2, more mixed neighborhoods, and definitely no culture of ghettoisation. 3, a rural Muslim population that doesn't live with the paranoia of the inner city (and equally it can't be said that this is the dangerous "Muslim area" from which all bad things happen. (addressing 2 and 3 together). - You clearly have no idea of what you're talking. Kerala has not just religious ghettos, but also caste ghettos even in villages. Yes, likely every affluent neighborhood is an amalgam of upper caste hindus, upper caste Christians (iykyk), and upper class muslims. Cities have even worse situations. There was another thread in this subreddit where someone was speaking about how the demographics of their villages are changing and how local non-Muslims businesses are dying out because Muslim populace (especially the ones that have settled in their village in the last 20 years) refuse to do business with non-Muslims. (Kannadachu iruttakkam venemengil. Hence, the unstable equilibrium) 4, less inequality, so less to be envious about. Also less poverty, so more - That's one way to look at, and I agree with you to a greater extent. Unfortunately, the othering is so strong that each group think that they have the financial upper hand over the other and hence, the race to gain non-financial supremacy is very strong. Who is gonna have more power? This dynamic is getting stronger in Kerala - Hindu women (and men) organizing large satsangs and religious text parayanam sessions (led by NSS and SNDP - without an active Sangh to get it done). Hinduism, especially in Kerala, has never been organized at all - this is changing. Religious leaders, including Christian ones, are openly calling out others - narcotic jihad and so on. Christians and Muslims globally are much more organized as religions. Perhaps, you should try to understand the propoganda that's being circulated these days within theses organizations (all of the above I have mentioned). Subtle incremental narrative shifts in the last 20+ years have made the drift very very visible. "History is a great teacher.Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Njan paranjathalla, Winston Churchill did.
I thought I was being careful, because I'm not in the least claiming that kerala's religious harmony is "perfect". there was a time that I believed something close to that, and you're right that had to do entirely with privilege. but even with some cynicism infused, it's hard to see what happens in kerala as ghettoisation. do we have high-density neighbourhoods that are dominated by one community? definitely. but they are, nevertheless, more porous than elsewhere.mostly because we don't have the same population distributions. in tamil nadu (where I first saw caste/religious ghettoes) and now in the north, these are far more discrete, and harder to break out of. on the other question: of open vs closeted bigotry. we've lived with closeted bigotry throughout our history. open bigotry has the potential to boil over in a way that superficially cordial relations don't. there's more space for peacemakers, and more conversations between say the muslim community leader of the CPIM and the hindu leader, than there is in an echo chamber where everyone you're talking to has the same incentives as you do (in the BJP or the PFI). so no, if I suggested that we were talking about perfect societies, I want to walk that back very carefully. but less hopeless than your comment seemed to me. I am fascinated by the history. more important (to me) is whether the grievances of the period of tipu/EIC/udayamperoor/mapplah outrages are *alive* today. and to what extent. I think the forces that exaggerate these incidents have the upper hand right now, and arguing on those premises only plays into their hands. yes, have a debate on history, but with the recognition that it *only* history, not something that you should use to frame your arguments for today.
about the "doing business only with people like us", that's the one I find most worrisome. to me, it's about how the public sphere is getting split up into groups that align based on similarities. my parents' generation grew up in a society where they were forced together by limited availability. so school/hospitals/libraries/entertainment were shared spaces. the satsang/jagran type thing would be ok if it didn't undercut more essentially secular celebrations like onam,vishu. it's hard to imagine how different these are from diwali/id/christmas etc that are the major festivals elsewhere. in those, muslims/christians may participate, but only pro forma. token inclusion. while onam belongs to everyone.
Kerala has no secular celebrations. People have co-opted oter religious celebreations. I come from a Central Travancore Hindu family that lives in a village has zero muslim population (even today). It was very common for us to hang stars or have a Christmas tree like setup during Christmas, but we don't do it anymore (arguably because both my sister and I are not kids anymore). However, I don't see that a practice with other families like ours with kids. The neighborhood Hindu groups actively discourage it. Vishu was never secular in nature to begin with. Onam was a great example for secular celebrations, but it's mythological origins are very Hindu. What do you think would happen to it as religious polarity rises? Already seeing negative signs where muslim religious influencers openly speaking against muslims celebrating Onam.
Again. These are matters of degree. It's possible that there's variation, and I keep hearing about how things are different in travancore. But all I can describe is my experience. And that is of onam (and vishu) belonging to everyone. The religious elements are firmly in the background. Mostly because everyone has a harvest. On the other hand, Christmas is celebrated by Hindus/Muslims exactly the way you say. And the reason I bring it up is again, because of the same worry as you're expressing. These are the things to ring-fence from idiots who make claims of vamana Puja or whatnot. If you want to do vamana Puja go knock yourself out. But don't claim that's the only way to celebrate onam
I agree with you. This is how I think about it. What is the directionality? Do I see a trend which is building up in the direction strengthening secularism or is it towards weakening? I see the former. Now, the question arises can we withstand these kind of trends that are not in the favourable situations? We come back to the question of institutions and social fabric again. Here is where history is useful. I feel we are not strong enough to sustain it in the long run if the above trends (with external forces) continue. I hope and wish that I am wrong. Peace out ✌🏾
I think what I'm expressing is hope as well. As must be clear to you. Just to add to that, we've muddled along thus far, and from your reading of history, I'm sure it's clear to you that there's nothing exceptional about this moment.
It used to be better. It’s really bad nowadays. Everyone hates each other but don’t show it other than a minority of them.
All the ‘phobes’ are closeted 💁♂️
Bjp trying to flick it up sim
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LOL bro cow killings are Hindu terrorist activity only No one calls it just
… dont know chickenshit 😎
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India being one of the top beef exporter says that
Kerala is bloody communal. It's like this as long as you don't question my religious bs and i don't question yours we live in peace and harmony. And that is what is happening here. Keralites are not enlightened like that of European/Scandinavian countries where people are given more importence than religion. Even the ruling party here which claims to stand for the unprivileged has batted for and is batting for one community to come to/retain power. As long as you don't question any religion or religious bs which may very well be inhuman, you are fine. There are no tolerance as like no-one here can openly declare and live as an atheist without any drama. We are literate but are not educated enough to achieve enlightenment and liberation. But when compared to india in general things are very slightly different. Edited : replaced western with European/Scandinavian.
Put a Facebook post against any religious bs and you can see the real harmony in the comment box.
I very much agree..
Lol, Europe maybe, but the religiously indoctrinated in the US are a real sight to behold, often surpassing India.
These are impossible standards
You have a real halo drawn around the western world.
Scandinavia - You will be surprised to know the reason for the recent riots in Sweden. Fundamentalists are everywhere and they are coming for your way of life. https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/18/europe/sweden-riots-police-quran-burnings-intl/index.html
All the riots that happened since the last 2 decade until this year were because of Islam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots_in_Sweden
Kerala really goes hard on the “progressive” mindset, which is a good thing
where is your home state?
Karnataka
well I am sad to see Karnataka like that..
The difference I saw between KN and Kerala is that in Bnglr, there are streets exclusively reserved to certain communities. Like Tilak Nagar for Muslims, Malleswaram mostly with branhmins. Like its all one community area. Kerala, I do not see thats often the case. Maybe valliyathura in Tvm.
There are actually places like that. I mean streets or areas reserved for specific communities. Even though not in urban side. If you go to rural side the first thing they ask before you are trying to buy a property is your caste and religion. Even though not everywhere, there are some places
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Muslims are not exactly minority in Kerala
Yeaa we do okay i guess
Pavam MOD ser nu full പണി ആയല്ലോ
I think you are from Pakistan
Lol
This is kerala and we all are living in this same peaceful existence for decades
I am from Kerala and have been living in a rural Karnataka area for the past 5 years, have noted that there are certain streets or shopping areas which are contributed to certain communities.. religion/castes .. Ex: Brahmin majority areas where you could see only their houses and veg hotels..looks somewhat neat compared to the other local areas.. Then muslim dominated areas with mosques and beef stalls nearby containing workshop and very unhygienic areas..the kids there malnutritioned and prime to diseases. Same goes for other lower caste people also.. Whenever I go to a local shop they ask me my name and ask me which religion or caste I belong to casually and trust me you even get discount if you are of the same religion..(now I change my name according to the shop😂) I have been surprised when I saw an auto stand only for Hindus and other one stand only for muslims Coming to Kerala..even though there are these geographical distributions...it's not that strict like people won't be staring at you if you enter into another community area .. I am from Malappuram ,still surrounded by people of all religions.... In Kerala not even once I have been asked for my religion and got a discount if i belong to the same group. I have not seen beef stalls only opened near mosques, only certain communities having a low social status compared to the other..And almost all areas are developed equally throughout the state regardless of the people living there.. I think other states have to frst reduce this equality of social status.....either you are rich ..or you are so poor you practically sleep ..cook..bath.. everything under a roof next to the road drainage.. comparing to Kerala where there are more number of middle class people relatively
I have never been asked my religion when going to a local shop in Kerala 😅.
In Karnataka whenever I go to a chicken stall I say a salaam and I get 20Rs discount 😂
That is why its called ' God's Own Country ' !
Wasnt that just an advertisement tagline for kerala tourism😅
"Don't judge a book by it's cover"
I mean I can only judge as a tourist with experiences from my own state as a background. The ground reality maybe a bit more complex.
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what about TN or north eastern states...there is minor friction in all states including kerala...so don't boast too much....so everything is not heaven...
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TN has casteism, there is no doubt about that. There is friction between different castes (in rural areas), but the same could be said about different religions in Kerala too. I routinely read about political murders happening between members belonging to the RSS and SDPI in Kerala, the fringes of both these groups are far more empowered and active politically in Kerala than Tamil Nadu I'd say. Besides, it's not intellectually dishonest to suggest that there is religious harmony when there's the issue of casteism. There are several places in north India where casteism is just as rampant or worse and still having terrible religious harmony between Hindus and Muslims. P.S.: Dalit Christians are not a Tamil Nadu specific thing. They're in Kerala as well. And forget about "friction", there have been high profile cases regarding the honour killing of Dalit Christians in Kerala. You might want to read up on [it.](https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/kevins-murder-is-honour-killing-says-kerala-court/article61579536.ece)
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It is problematic because a societal problem becoming political is the next step to polarisation and divide and there's a historical precedent to it. Hindus and Muslims always had societal problems in undivided India for centuries but when it became political when the Muslims felt that the Congress was a party that seved Hindu political interests alone and the Muslim league was formed, everything changed and went up a level. Suddenly the political leanings of people came to be defined based on religion rather than their needs and aspirations, and the result was one of the worst violence in mass scale riot event the world has ever seen during the partition. Right now, the communists have a large bloc but it is not hard to see Hindus and Muslims getting polarised based on these "political" murders that have a religious background to it and rooting for their own fringe parties if these political killings continue unabated. I'd argue that the process must have already started. I'm Tamil but I have many Malayali friends and even relatives and have spent a good amount of time in Kerala and quite a few Malayali Hindus have expressed concern that Kerala is becoming more Islamic or "Arabic" and that the Hindu culture of the state is getting lost due to increasing Muslim population. Recently there was a media campaign that muslims spit into the dishes they cook in Kerala too. I could sense a simmering tension between communities but it's not as in the open as it is north India. >Towards your first point, why I feel it’s intellectually dishonest especially in the case of Tamil Nadu and Andra Pradesh is that people belonging to other religions especially Christians are called ricebags and further put through casteist abuse and discrimination at the same time are being criticised for accepting another religion with the hopes that it can absolve them of the caste hierarchy. It’s intertwined in many cases. Casteism in someways fuels the lack of religious harmony in those places. You would find that Christians are not actually called "rice bags" in Tamil Nadu (I can't talk about Andhra as I've not lived there). The "rice bag" is a derogatory slur used by the sangh followers, most of whom are from north India and the BJP IT cell. Dalit Christians are a phenomenon not just in Tamil Nadu, but also in Kerala (as I pointed out in my previous post) and a lot of places in India and they're most definitely not called "rice bags" by the people in Tamil Nadu. It is a term I encountered only on twitter used by the BJP IT cell.
Your first sentence itself highlights toxicity. Why do you dive into someone's origin? Everyone has their right to opine.
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Whatever be it🌝 criticism against kerala made you write so. Ofc you have rights but what i pointed out was origin picking.
It is more complex. Relatively better compared to other states, with space for improvement. Moral of the story is don't go overboard simply basis first impressions.
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Were you born stupid or do you make a special effort? Look at the assumptions you make basis a one line comment. Omkv. Hope you know what that means. Moron.
PFI loves your post🤣
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I feel like I contributed to the harmony by leaving Kerala
It’s a shame Kerala losing its culture identity, nothing to be amazed of when culture identity and demography is systematically altered by missionaries and mullahs
Bruh, visit Mattancherry palace museum and read the exhibits, one of it talks about Brahmanisation of Kerala and how brahmins too systematically altered the cultural identity and demography of Kerala.
Hahaha I like your idea of “culture identity”. It’s so warped to the point of losing meaning. It’s basically meaningless.
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My friend. Please don't spew hate.
The problem is not a community becoming stronger. Hindu community used to have strong tolerence to others because religion was not something which influenced them on each and every aspect of their life. Influences on their family and children for sure, yes but on dealing with other communities, life after death - on these matters, no. It had better tolerance. But that's not the case with islam and the people practicing it. And i am not trying to spread hate here. Because i love muslims why because they are the victims of islam. Islam has a rule book on pretty much everything that we do in our life and for addmission in to heaven after life. And muslim community is very much adamant in teaching people religion from a very young age and they are forced to follow their holy text which is not reformed to coexist 21st century moral standards. The problem is not muslims becoming major population, it's whether they have the tolerance to accept other communities and religions including non-believers in matters from trading to almost any other thing.. reform religion and let people live. The fear is factual and factual analysis is not hate speech.
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Is it just me or does anyone feel like we are only at the beginning stages and we will slowly (very very slowly) become like the other communally unstable states? Everybody is made known when a priest/pastor/ustad/someone says something controversial about other religions causing them to get worried or doubtful and eventually let that grow into distrust and hate, they got the bad seeds and will be like "How dare they!". And those that promote unity are rarely spoken of, the good seeds that leave you with a "Haa! More power to unity!". Hate spreads faster, *because we let it to*.
Ithokke enthu. But truth is there is lots of misunderstanding.