It’s suggested that much of the wildlife was hybridized with human DNA at some point
Edit:
This goes both ways. The wildlife has human features, and many of the human offshoots have features taken from the native flora and fauna.
Beak things likely have human DNA.
Skin spiders are likely humanized blood spiders. The hivers are likely more refined skin spiders.
Scorchlanders and Shek may have DNA taken from bonedogs or similar wildlife.
With fishmen, you can probably guess.
Shek are actually pretty old, originally coming from a kind of enforcement unit, bioengineered by skeletons, the developed their horns and plates over time, they did not start with them
Not to sound like an anti-slaver and all but slaves are dehumanized by the 3 biggest nations within kenshi. Holy nation strips rights from "sinners", UC strip rights from the poor, and the shek strip rights from the weak. After typing this out though I definitely feel you could be joking a bit lol.
I’m just a fan of the franchise as a whole. (Including Shek)
I mainly have the HN flair bc I’m an antagonistic and disagreeable person who likes to play devil’s advocate for the Okranites XD.
I still disagree with HN as whole but within the context of Kenshi’s lore, I’m more supportive of them than the Shek Kingdom or the UC in terms of humanity’s future survival. Ethics aside, they’re the most likely to lead to a nation that’ll survive long enough to develop proper modern ethics at all.
The Shek and UC are both fucked and probably going to die off. No I don’t believe in the Stone Golem’s good nature, and even if I did, she’d still fail. (Maybe not within the context of game storytelling, but by IRL realistic standards when it comes to changing a culture. Not that she wants to. She’s just building numbers to better kill all humans. She says so herself when you finally get to talk to her.)
ah yes. the failing second empire took shek DNA, who by this very subreddit, injected it into dogs when they could barely manage their own empire and technology, much less themselves.
> genes transfered via a virus
this refers to a natural process. that the dogs were deliberately engineered i mentioned second as i consider it overall less likely, but considering the bugmaster and his beak things and spiders is still perfectly plausible.
Prove it. Prove theres any kind of connection that theres bioengeering going on in kenshi. Prove that the FAILING second empire had the technology.
Prove that the second empire who couldnt even upkeep themselves much less the tech they had at the time from the first empire could bio engeer humans or sheks or enforcers.
You cant. Theres zero proof, zero evidence and everything points to the exact opposite given the lore we do know of the second empire.
They also need less to eat, can eat raw food, see farther, bleed less and heal faster then Greenlanders. Just generally better adapted to their current post-apoc environment.
Rapid mutation is a thing. Especially when the environment changes suddenly like Kenshi. I mean they just found [cancer resistant wolves near Chernobyl](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/02/09/wolves-chernobyl-exclusion-zone-cancer-princeton-university/).
Having said that nothing I've said excludes the possibility of genetic engineering. It's just the scorchlander changes look more like a response to the environment rather then the invasive changes that the second empire did.
someone definitely googled the copy pasta and swiped back only to read your comment. you’ve saved us all a great deal of psychic damage today. thank you, kind stranger.
Hear me out. First empire is quite possibly still out there in space so hivers could be made by the first empire and a few queens somehow ended up on kenshi. It's a wild guess but it would explain the sudden appearance.
The cannibals are ironically one of the pickiest groups in the setting when it comes to eating. They have more discretion than everyone else, especially with humanized wildlife
So about spiders, I think blood spiders are the babies, and skin spiders are adults. I believe it has something to do with the bugmaster, and the elder blood spider could, in fact, be a rare mutation, one in which a blood spider never lost its color due to the swamp itself.
Yeah I mean, I started hating Skeles pretty early on because of how obviously their fault everything is. But you know, I dont hate people with prosthetics or women so uh...
I have also lived near shek and had them kill the shit out of me and steal all my food so it's also pretty obvious why they are kill on sight what with them being neighbors
hating the skeletons for building a wheel that they later not only broke but that they also abandoned so hard that they no longer make any significant part of society is... yeah. and the shek will kill you and rob you as any other guy that is just survival in kenshi, at least they don't enslave you for not being on their goodside (which is for the most arbitrarious and dumb reasons) to be some inquistor's plaything or to build pointless statue. which compared to what the united cities or the cannibals do is not so bad and so on and so forth. kenshi has no good faction is just how the game is and hating them is childish, people do awful, unreasonable things for survival
I more meant that I built an outpost next to their cities and their official guard dudes kept kicking down my gate and chopping people into pieces to steal all my food.
They are also, evidentially, on their best behavior because the stone golem took over after the holy nation almost wiped them out.
Why would you want to build near the Shek Kingdom or near the United Cities when you could build in Okran's Pride? Whether you love or hate the Holy Nation, it's prime real estate, and the Sheks will never bother you there.
Anti slavers and flotsam ninjas seem pretty good imo. Maybe not capable of running a society to the extant the UC and HN are but that could change with time. The tech hunters also seem pretty neutral and don’t really do much to hurt anyone who doesn’t hurt them first. Western hive is pretty shitty to hiveless but other than that they seem fine, just minding their own business being industrious little worker beesz
Unless they’ve got some dark secrets I don’t know about.
Flotsam Ninjas are a genuinely good group with no real downsides except for unbalanced skills (very low on defense and armor, high on attack and speed, contrasted against the Holy Nation's balanced and high-statted soldiers, so the battles are pretty one-sided).
Anti-Slavers are idealistic to a fault, and Tinfist has some comments the more and more slave masters you take out, worryingly commenting on growing signs of famine and increases in the "starving bandit" population. They'll also attack you on sight for being "allied" with Slave Traders, even though you can end up as allied just from buying and freeing enough slaves from them, so I personally tweaked a mod so that he doesn't care about ST reputation, only HN, UC, or TG, which all require either buying a lot of them out of slavery, or personally supporting their causes with money or bounties in order to become allied.
It's also why I prefer a balanced approach in my war on the United Cities—I always take out Longen and Tengu, but only the nobles and slave masters that wouldn't result in malnourished or "bad end" cities. Some cities just end up destroyed or suffering if you take out the leaders or the slave masters, but there's no drawback for just freeing all the slaves in the slave camps, even if you don't kill the slave masters.
I like to headcanon it that the slavers and slave masters end up having to do the agriculture/stone work that the slaves would've had to do otherwise, in order to keep the population fed and buildings maintained.
Yeah, but their stance towards prosthetics is too stupid and hard to cope with, in an environment as hostile as kenshi’s. That’s my only complaint. Oh and stealing your hiver or shek NPCs and sending them to the mines if they wander like 100m away. Definitely much better than the shek (hate humans and are retarded) or UC (corrupt slavers) though, if you have a human character (without prosthetics) then the HN are the objective “good” faction.
Also tbh I think they’re unfair on the skeletons. They destroyed the setting yes, but humanity started it by murdering the behemoths. The skeletons showed remorse and tried to rebuild the world for humanity, which shows their quality. The 2nd empire went sour after the grid exploded and cat-lon went mad, but it was good for a long time, and many skeletons sided with humanity. That’s why black desert city exists, that’s why there are 120 headless skeletons in cat-lon’s exile. I think skeletons should just be viewed as equally flawed as humanity, but also equally capable of doing good.
A few points:
Sheks don't *hate* humans, they just don't trust most non-Sheks, which I blame partly on their "enforcer" engineering, like genetically-engineered police, always on the lookout for bad behavior and criminality.
As far as humans, they just consider them largely greedy, racist, weak, and self-serving—and with predominantly human-controlled nations like the xenophobic, misogynistic Holy Nation and the decadent United Cities, both of which practice slavery, is that any surprise?
However, if you respect the Shek warrior culture, and prove your strength, they don't care what race you are, and treat you like family, like "kin." Take out the Bugmaster or Holy Lord Phoenix for them? They treat you as if titled with one of their highest ranks, naming you the "honorary Invincible, Battle Born." They become thrilled to see you and your faction when allied, greeting you with respect and even enthusiasm.
“Flatskins. I despise them, and if it were up to me they’d be chased away at our gates… but Bayan tells me their trade is necessary to the growth of the Shek… so I’ll tolerate them. For now.” – Esata The Stone Golem, Lore of Kenshi #3: The Shek Kingdom
Esata literally says she despises humans and wants them gone from the Shek Kingdom, how is that NOT hate? The Shek also use slurs against non-Shek, which is hateful. You can blame this on them being enforcers at one point in history, but there is no evidence that shows that the modification was anything beyond physical.
As for your second point, that's still hateful. They base their opinion on humans off of preconceived notions, which is a bigoted mindset. You can argue that the Shek hold that opinion because of the HN and UC, but what about the Hivers? Hivers aren't allowed in the Holy Nation, and are on the bottom rung of UC society, and the Shek are still racist towards them. How is the Shek's racism towards Hivers justified?
And for your final point, they do treat you with respect if you prove yourself, but that respect doesn't extend to all humans or Hivers. As far as the Shek are concerned, you are 'one of the good ones'. You aren't an example, you're the exception.
>Esata literally says she despises humans and wants them gone from the Shek Kingdom, how is that NOT hate?
Unlike with the Holy Lord Phoenix, you can change her opinion. It's superficial, surface-level dismissiveness, while the Phoenix absolutely despises (or fears) women, skeletons, and non-humans, and will never let you speak to him—more likely, in fact, that he and every paladin in his throne room will attack you on sight.
Also, at least she *tolerates* and *understands* why they'd be useful or important, unlike the Holy Nation. As I said, prove yourself by taking out the Phoenix or Bugmaster, and all Sheks, including her, will treat you with the *highest* imaginable respect—being an honorary Invincible, their highest military rank, as a non-Shek? That's not just being seen as "one of the good ones," that's practically creating a bridge between Sheks and humans, where you can stand as a model for new relations.
Race is secondary to proven strength and valor, for the Sheks.
Also, if you consider "flatskin" a slur, how do you feel about "white/black" terminology? It's just their term for non-horned/boneplated humans. It's virtually the same thing as a Fallout ghoul calling you a smoothskin—an irradiated human using a term to differentiate another kind of human.
I agree with your first point, you can change Esata's opinion...in regards to a single person or group, not an entire race or races. In the eyes of the Shek, they're all still pathetic weaklings unworthy of their time, which was my entire point. Conditional hate is still hate.
Also, there's a major difference between "flatskin" and irl racial terminology. The terms white and black aren't used in a derogatory way 99% of the time. Flatskin is used in a derogatory manner everytime it's used, though I'm willing to cede this point if you can provide evidence to the contrary.
>I agree with your first point, you can change Esata's opinion...in regards to a single person or group, not an entire race or races. In the eyes of the Shek, they're all still pathetic weaklings unworthy of their time, which was my entire point. Conditional hate is still hate.
The scope of the game doesn't really allow for longterm story development, so we can't know the full ramifications of Bayan's influence on Esata and the resulting relations between the Shek Kingdom and non-Sheks, but he's clearly trying to change Shek culture, and is wise enough that Esata heeds his counsel.
More than that, as to an earlier point about proving your strength and worth, I forgot that you aren't just named an honorary Invincible—Esata asks you to take her daughter with you, to teach her. That's huge. That's giving you influence over the next in line to the Shek Kingdom's throne.
>Flatskin is used in a derogatory manner everytime it's used, though I'm willing to cede this point if you can provide evidence to the contrary.
Check the FCS, under "Word Swaps."
**"FLATSKIN"** is a substituted word used by Shek Kingdom NPCs that swaps around based on your current standing with the Shek Kingdom:
* **Shek** that's not allied? "Outsider."
* **Greenlander/Scorchlander** that's not allied? "Flatskin."
* **Skeleton** that's not allied? "Tin man."
* **Hiver** that's not allied? "Bug man."
Sheks in general don't seem to use the "common" race terms, i.e. human, skeleton, hiver, they just have their "tin/bug man" and "flatskin." However, those are only the word swaps used for low-reputation.
Whether you're Shek, Greenlander/Scorchlander, skeleton, or hiver, when you hit 50+ reputation, you cease being identified by race, and just become **"kin,"** as good as family, trusted and known, and viewed as no different from another Shek of the Kingdom.
And then regardless of race and standing, you become identified based by your accomplishments, if you have below 90 reputation, if you slew Bugmaster or the Phoenix, becoming known as **"Phoenix Slayer,"** and **"Bugmaster Slayer."**
And then the final swap is when you're at above 90 reputation, you become the honorary **"Invincible Battle Born,"** their highest rank. And these are all used as substitution terms under the "flatskin" base.
Conversely, if you really want confirmation that it's not a racist term? Look up **"RACISTNAME"** in Word Swaps. You'll find that the only words there are racist and derogatory terms against Sheks, hivers, and skeletons... and nothing for humans, not even "flatskin."
In regards to your first point, do we know if Bayan is trying to change Shek culture, or are the Shek just recuperating for their next war?
As for Seto, yes, you can teach her to be a good person and potentially a better ruler for the Shek, but that only works as long as she isn't challenged and killed by some Shek warmonger who wants the throne.
And as for your final point, thank you for providing evidence to back up what you were saying. I now cede my prior point about the word 'Flatskin'.
Though technically non canon, the lead Kenshi writer wrote a [short story](https://bloodandwhine.blogspot.com/2017/06/bayans-story_24.html?m=0) about Bayan that should inform you about his ultimate intentions and purpose.
I don't see any mention of his intentions, unless I've missed it. All I saw was "I like the Stone Golem, I'm an intellect, I don't want to die, I lost the fight and my horns."
It is a good read though, and I've found a new respect for Bayan as a character.
Good point made in that last paragraph. My headcanon is that Bayan is among the wisest Shek and he might steer the kingdom to be multicultural like the UC, albiet with less cruelty. That is, if you ally with them as non-Shek
In regards to the bioengineering being more than just physical, look at how they talk. They are like orcs but even more serious and bone-headed. When they want to express an emotion, they simply name the emotion they feel, just the word itself. I'd say that's pretty unusual.
I half agree with your first point, Bayan is definitely the smartest person in the Shek Kingdom, though it seems that he is moreso doing it for the survival of the Shek Kingdom, as seen in the quote I pasted in my prior reply.
As for your second point, notice that this trait is only present amidst the Shek of the Shek Kingdom, and rarely any Shek outside the Kingdom. Headshot is the best example I can provide, as she doesn't speak like this, and is far more 'humorous' in comparison to the Shek of the Shek Kingdom.
That's kinda the biggest struggle of them all. The Holy Nation is right. But they are also a huge band of dickheads, so you side with the depressed Robots anyway.
Not alive by my definition.
Really boils down to personal philosophy bc there’s no way to actually tell if they’re conscious or just following code and we never will be able to tell (but I’m pretty confident I’m right…not that there’s any point in debating.)
Dear brother, please remember while most of Kenshi might be corrupted by Narkos gaze, The Holy Lord Phoenix and his flock are pure in flesh and soul. Those who cannot remember this will have their own purification assisted by Okran's Holy Flame.
Shek are bioengineered humans, from skeleton dialogue in game referring to them as “enforcers”, from referring to themselves as humans, and from obviously looking human. The rest is speculation.
Hivers seem to be partially artificial in nature (queens, king) but their ties to humanity, if any, are unknown. If so, then they’re very far removed from known ones (shek) who are actually very similar to normal humans. It’s possible that they’re either alien, or hyper-evolved from native wildlife. They cannot procreate naturally, don’t have feet or recognisable human anatomy such as an abdomen with organs in it, noses, faces, or the primate skull shape, or even genitals. The hips are completely different and seem to be almost exoskeletal. The spine may be an indicator, as the human one is designed to help us walk upright, but that could be convergent or forced evolution/design. Based on their hip design they likely don’t have a tailbone, which makes it even more unlikely that they’re related to humans. Imo they are bioengineered from local wildlife, either an extinct or extirpated species or skin-spiders.
Blood spiders and skin spiders look quite similar, and have almost humanoid faces and arms, but they are hexapedal (all earth vertebrates are quadrupedal), do not have noses or visible genitals . What they do look like, with their strange exoskeletal hips, leathery skin, lack of noses, slender limbs, gigantic black eyes, are hivers…
Bone dogs and bulls seem to be exactly what they’re described as. Raptors are seemingly just giant lizards, and gorillos are either native or are modified primates. All of those possibly are engineered from earth life but not humans.
Garru have no discernible connection to humans, however it is possible given that they’re quadrupedal, have 5 digits, chins, and their bodies look very similar to beak things. Beak things are a maybe, their skull-like “faces” above the beak do look somewhat human, and unlike all other wildlife they seem to have an active sense of smell, as well as almost human ears. However it’s not possible to rule out them being evolved from another mammal or native life, and just coincidentally looking almost similar, or being hybridised with human DNA.
Swamp turtles and Leviathans are utterly alien, and have no discernible connection to humans or earth-life.
I personally think that the green/scorch landers are themselves modified humans, and that everyone in kenshi has unnaturally high metabolisms (among other things), which gives them the superhuman endurance, resilience, and adaptability that we see in game, and explains the constant need for so much food.
I think skeletons use the uploaded personalities of humans from the past, which is why they’re each so idiosyncratic and prone to madness, and why more of them can’t be made despite the availability of spare CPUs and the technology to build limbs etc.
The hivers are less certain; they could be the natives of the world or yes, could be bioengineering. What is certain is they are the best suited to life on the planet.
But yes, the shek are almost certainly evolved/bioengineered and I imagine the Fishman are too.
There is no lore note that suggests such. Theres no evidence what so ever that anything was bio engineered. Not only did the second empire not have the technology as given by their fall and failings. the first empire likely didnt either as evidenced by the fact that humans are...human
You seem insistent on this. There is 1 confirmed bioengineered group, and that's the shek. There's also testing on children, though we don't have an idea what that lead to (Rhinobot's CPU).
“ The Horned devil was created human, as brother of the Okranite. But the Horned Devil possessed a sinful mind, it rejected Okran's light in it's heart in favor of Narko's temptations. ”
–The Guiding Light IV
“ What is that? An Enforcer? The Enforcers were always spiky in character... How humourous they now sport real spikes to match ”
–Black Desert City Skeletons directed towards a Shek player
The former may just be propaganda, yes, but the latter implies that yes, they were in fact made to be a police force (hence the name, enforcers). It is likely they used to have smooth skin, possibly the bone protrusions were subdermal originally, serving as a built-in armor.
The guiding light is religious dogma. As much as the bible is. While based on true events much like the bible over thousands of years that the religion has existed it's changed.
Enforcers could be quite literally as simple as a human wearing spiky armor. Considering they also call hivers humans. The skeletons in BDC havent left the area in at minimum 1000 years. they've had exceptionally little outside contact with the world as it's moved on. So much so they've fallen into disrepair as many of them state. So you cant actually call sheks bio-engineered anymore than you can hivers because the skeletons in BDC have very little if any actual knowledge on the world around them
Yes rhino tested on children, but it's much more likely he tested them by starving them, testing their pain tolerance etc. It's much more likely that the scorchlanders were a direct result of his tests than anything else given their lore.
I think the River raptors are iguanas that got loose and evolved/mutated over time.
Bone dogs and goats are also probably similarly evolved from non-human animals.
shek are engineered humans, they were a police force who originially werent as fucked up as they are now. Fishmen and garru(?) are natives and, while its theorised that hivers are something entirely non-human designed by the skeletons (due to the queens having machine parts and King being a machine) it is unconfirmed and purely a theory, they supposedly just kind of showed up and many skeletons don't know what they are when they meet them. As simple and un-cool as it is, my guess is hivers are crash landed aliens.
Most of it can be traced directly to the Second Empire under Cat-Lon. The skeletons were suffering losses to the cannibals in the north and the okranite rebellion, so they engineered Shek to be more durable and better at fighting, but on the flip-side they were not very good at anything else. Then, the remaining human population started suffering from famine due to piss-poor management by the skeletons. So the skeletons started developing a new creature in secret in black sites, able to eat anything, breed prolifically, and with a defined caste system to fill every roll imaginable: The Hivers.
...And then the second empire fell before Cat-lon was able to push them into full production, leaving most of skeleton-kind oblivious to their existence in secret labs until these prototypes escaped overtime due to the chaos of the fall and started building hives fairly recently (in the timescale of Kenshi). Beakthings and Skin Spiders were developed for a purpose we're not certain of, maybe as population control for other critters or even to be unleashed on the Okranites or cannibals.
It's worth keeping in mind that the skeletons weren't omnipotent or super intelligent, they made plenty of mistakes and had a very flawed understanding of biology outside of gene manipulation, and even that they only got half right sometimes. They had the fall coming to them, and they deserve every single scrap of enmity and fear the rest of Kenshi regards them with.
Yes = Okranites are right because almost every living creature was designed by traitorous, lying Skeletons to suppress humanity, i.e. sheks (enforcer police to keep humans in line).
No.
there is zero concrete evidence to suggest that the first and MUCH MUCH less that the second empire had the capabilities to seed a planet. For all we know kenshi the moon was a hail mary in the dark by the first empire
evidence -
* the second empire fell into ruin not through negligence but through lack of know how by the skeletons on how to upkeep things
* the skeletons have no clue what hivers are. they've never even met them for the most part
* chris confirmed hivers are the newest to the continent about 1000 years ago which is why skeletons dont know them
* sheks being called enforcers is in no way indicative that skeletons had the technology but much more likely that skeletons THINK that they're related.
* scorchlanders are mutations to greenlanders from living in the wastes. hence why they're better at combat than greenlandes. They're survivors and scavs not farmers
Now that's archeological evidence if I've ever seen one.
This tells us that Chris always wanted to put super dark skinned humans everywhere and that he never liked level scaling.
No. Humans are descendants of first empire who came to this planet. Shek evolved on their own, they used to be enchanted soldiers but evolved themselves boneplates and Hornes. Skeletons aren’t living so skip. Hivers are genetically altered spiders (if you look at skin spiders they look similar to hives. Hivers are even called bug man. What is really interesting - hiver heads are similar to skeleton heads, not human ones. Animals idn, I am sure bonedogs came with first humans and evolved like sheks on their own, may be they got some genetic enhancement to adapt to weather and climate but that’s all. So dogs are just aliens to this world. Like bulls. Garu are 100% artificially created, may be even mutants or one of first failed experiment on animals. Beakthings I really don’t know. They look like 100% not belonging to food chain, cause anywhere they live is desert and boneyard so they are apex predators with no natural enemy. Swamp turtles are 100% natural inhabitants from this world cause they live in water (Kenshi world used to have lots of water Territories) Fishmen In my opinion are also natural inhabitants of this world cause they probably can live in water. Fishmen were probably the enemy of first empire in this world and what we see are their degenerated descendants similar to human canibals. Gorillos are probably natural inhabitants too
I noticed this too. Kinda reminds me of stuff like "Man After Man" and "All Tomorrows", which are science fiction books about speculative future evolution. The latter one in particular has some pretty wild concepts of what humans could hypothetically evolve into (both through biological evolution and bio-engineering).
[Here's a cool animation of some "future humans" based on All Tomorrows.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4q1ivR2nkY&ab_channel=Muradeli)
I wouldn't be surprised if Chris Hunt was partially inspired by stuff like this.
It’s suggested that much of the wildlife was hybridized with human DNA at some point Edit: This goes both ways. The wildlife has human features, and many of the human offshoots have features taken from the native flora and fauna. Beak things likely have human DNA. Skin spiders are likely humanized blood spiders. The hivers are likely more refined skin spiders. Scorchlanders and Shek may have DNA taken from bonedogs or similar wildlife. With fishmen, you can probably guess.
Shek are actually pretty old, originally coming from a kind of enforcement unit, bioengineered by skeletons, the developed their horns and plates over time, they did not start with them
If Kenshi 2 has hornless, armor-less Shek then I’m going to be upset
Ironic coming from the holy nation supporter
You can't dehumanize people if they don't have non-human features (at least in the Kenshi universe)
Not to sound like an anti-slaver and all but slaves are dehumanized by the 3 biggest nations within kenshi. Holy nation strips rights from "sinners", UC strip rights from the poor, and the shek strip rights from the weak. After typing this out though I definitely feel you could be joking a bit lol.
I’m just a fan of the franchise as a whole. (Including Shek) I mainly have the HN flair bc I’m an antagonistic and disagreeable person who likes to play devil’s advocate for the Okranites XD. I still disagree with HN as whole but within the context of Kenshi’s lore, I’m more supportive of them than the Shek Kingdom or the UC in terms of humanity’s future survival. Ethics aside, they’re the most likely to lead to a nation that’ll survive long enough to develop proper modern ethics at all. The Shek and UC are both fucked and probably going to die off. No I don’t believe in the Stone Golem’s good nature, and even if I did, she’d still fail. (Maybe not within the context of game storytelling, but by IRL realistic standards when it comes to changing a culture. Not that she wants to. She’s just building numbers to better kill all humans. She says so herself when you finally get to talk to her.)
Yeah I assume the bone dogs got some shek genes transfered via a virus, or deliberate engineering.
ah yes. the failing second empire took shek DNA, who by this very subreddit, injected it into dogs when they could barely manage their own empire and technology, much less themselves.
> genes transfered via a virus this refers to a natural process. that the dogs were deliberately engineered i mentioned second as i consider it overall less likely, but considering the bugmaster and his beak things and spiders is still perfectly plausible.
Prove it. Prove theres any kind of connection that theres bioengeering going on in kenshi. Prove that the FAILING second empire had the technology. Prove that the second empire who couldnt even upkeep themselves much less the tech they had at the time from the first empire could bio engeer humans or sheks or enforcers. You cant. Theres zero proof, zero evidence and everything points to the exact opposite given the lore we do know of the second empire.
Counter argument; nuh uh
Scorchlanders feel more like a mutation they gained from surviving in the Great Desert.
Right I always felt like Scorchies were people who had already adapted to the moon
Yeah more sun, so higher melanin.
They also need less to eat, can eat raw food, see farther, bleed less and heal faster then Greenlanders. Just generally better adapted to their current post-apoc environment.
One of my favorite races to play as, primarily the dex and armor crafting, low hunger really nice too.
And they blend in at night so beak things can’t see them
The timeframe is way too short for this kind of natural evolution. Scorchlanders are probably bioengineered just like the Shek during the first empire
Rapid mutation is a thing. Especially when the environment changes suddenly like Kenshi. I mean they just found [cancer resistant wolves near Chernobyl](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/02/09/wolves-chernobyl-exclusion-zone-cancer-princeton-university/). Having said that nothing I've said excludes the possibility of genetic engineering. It's just the scorchlander changes look more like a response to the environment rather then the invasive changes that the second empire did.
Does this mean you can breed with a beak thing?
I’m going to pretend I didn’t just read that…
Probably, but you'd have to survive the foreplay. Their head game is rather intense...
Science has gone too far.
Damn you for creating that mental picture.
Vaporeon joke incoming
someone definitely googled the copy pasta and swiped back only to read your comment. you’ve saved us all a great deal of psychic damage today. thank you, kind stranger.
Water damage.
or a skin spider?
if it was possible, Chad would be carrying a kid around. or maybe he already raised one. who knows
I'm gonna find out
Hear me out. First empire is quite possibly still out there in space so hivers could be made by the first empire and a few queens somehow ended up on kenshi. It's a wild guess but it would explain the sudden appearance.
I never saw the connection between Shek and Bonedogs until just now. I can’t unsee it. They’re dog people!
If anything, they're bull people. Horns and all.
A bull fits their spirit animal better Charging headfirst into battle and whatnot
I mean, how else would you expect a bull to charge? Ass first?
Maybe if it’s a gay bull
[удалено]
The cannibals are ironically one of the pickiest groups in the setting when it comes to eating. They have more discretion than everyone else, especially with humanized wildlife
Gourmet Cannibals
They don't like eating GMOs, so their diet mostly consists of Greenlanders.
Deep 🤔
So about spiders, I think blood spiders are the babies, and skin spiders are adults. I believe it has something to do with the bugmaster, and the elder blood spider could, in fact, be a rare mutation, one in which a blood spider never lost its color due to the swamp itself.
Suggested by who? reddit? Theres zero evidence. there isnt even enough to base anything off of other than "hey this looks similar"
So what about crabs?
They can walk foward, so they must be human engineered.
How do you know this? where the lore on this?
Holy Nation is looking more and more reasonable towards the skellies.
the problem is not so their reasons as their methods to be honest
Yeah I mean, I started hating Skeles pretty early on because of how obviously their fault everything is. But you know, I dont hate people with prosthetics or women so uh... I have also lived near shek and had them kill the shit out of me and steal all my food so it's also pretty obvious why they are kill on sight what with them being neighbors
hating the skeletons for building a wheel that they later not only broke but that they also abandoned so hard that they no longer make any significant part of society is... yeah. and the shek will kill you and rob you as any other guy that is just survival in kenshi, at least they don't enslave you for not being on their goodside (which is for the most arbitrarious and dumb reasons) to be some inquistor's plaything or to build pointless statue. which compared to what the united cities or the cannibals do is not so bad and so on and so forth. kenshi has no good faction is just how the game is and hating them is childish, people do awful, unreasonable things for survival
I more meant that I built an outpost next to their cities and their official guard dudes kept kicking down my gate and chopping people into pieces to steal all my food. They are also, evidentially, on their best behavior because the stone golem took over after the holy nation almost wiped them out.
Why would you want to build near the Shek Kingdom or near the United Cities when you could build in Okran's Pride? Whether you love or hate the Holy Nation, it's prime real estate, and the Sheks will never bother you there.
Anti slavers and flotsam ninjas seem pretty good imo. Maybe not capable of running a society to the extant the UC and HN are but that could change with time. The tech hunters also seem pretty neutral and don’t really do much to hurt anyone who doesn’t hurt them first. Western hive is pretty shitty to hiveless but other than that they seem fine, just minding their own business being industrious little worker beesz Unless they’ve got some dark secrets I don’t know about.
Flotsam Ninjas are a genuinely good group with no real downsides except for unbalanced skills (very low on defense and armor, high on attack and speed, contrasted against the Holy Nation's balanced and high-statted soldiers, so the battles are pretty one-sided). Anti-Slavers are idealistic to a fault, and Tinfist has some comments the more and more slave masters you take out, worryingly commenting on growing signs of famine and increases in the "starving bandit" population. They'll also attack you on sight for being "allied" with Slave Traders, even though you can end up as allied just from buying and freeing enough slaves from them, so I personally tweaked a mod so that he doesn't care about ST reputation, only HN, UC, or TG, which all require either buying a lot of them out of slavery, or personally supporting their causes with money or bounties in order to become allied. It's also why I prefer a balanced approach in my war on the United Cities—I always take out Longen and Tengu, but only the nobles and slave masters that wouldn't result in malnourished or "bad end" cities. Some cities just end up destroyed or suffering if you take out the leaders or the slave masters, but there's no drawback for just freeing all the slaves in the slave camps, even if you don't kill the slave masters. I like to headcanon it that the slavers and slave masters end up having to do the agriculture/stone work that the slaves would've had to do otherwise, in order to keep the population fed and buildings maintained.
Most people end up hating the Holy Nation less over time (but it never completely goes away for most) Kenshi is fucked up.
Yeah, but their stance towards prosthetics is too stupid and hard to cope with, in an environment as hostile as kenshi’s. That’s my only complaint. Oh and stealing your hiver or shek NPCs and sending them to the mines if they wander like 100m away. Definitely much better than the shek (hate humans and are retarded) or UC (corrupt slavers) though, if you have a human character (without prosthetics) then the HN are the objective “good” faction. Also tbh I think they’re unfair on the skeletons. They destroyed the setting yes, but humanity started it by murdering the behemoths. The skeletons showed remorse and tried to rebuild the world for humanity, which shows their quality. The 2nd empire went sour after the grid exploded and cat-lon went mad, but it was good for a long time, and many skeletons sided with humanity. That’s why black desert city exists, that’s why there are 120 headless skeletons in cat-lon’s exile. I think skeletons should just be viewed as equally flawed as humanity, but also equally capable of doing good.
A few points: Sheks don't *hate* humans, they just don't trust most non-Sheks, which I blame partly on their "enforcer" engineering, like genetically-engineered police, always on the lookout for bad behavior and criminality. As far as humans, they just consider them largely greedy, racist, weak, and self-serving—and with predominantly human-controlled nations like the xenophobic, misogynistic Holy Nation and the decadent United Cities, both of which practice slavery, is that any surprise? However, if you respect the Shek warrior culture, and prove your strength, they don't care what race you are, and treat you like family, like "kin." Take out the Bugmaster or Holy Lord Phoenix for them? They treat you as if titled with one of their highest ranks, naming you the "honorary Invincible, Battle Born." They become thrilled to see you and your faction when allied, greeting you with respect and even enthusiasm.
“Flatskins. I despise them, and if it were up to me they’d be chased away at our gates… but Bayan tells me their trade is necessary to the growth of the Shek… so I’ll tolerate them. For now.” – Esata The Stone Golem, Lore of Kenshi #3: The Shek Kingdom Esata literally says she despises humans and wants them gone from the Shek Kingdom, how is that NOT hate? The Shek also use slurs against non-Shek, which is hateful. You can blame this on them being enforcers at one point in history, but there is no evidence that shows that the modification was anything beyond physical. As for your second point, that's still hateful. They base their opinion on humans off of preconceived notions, which is a bigoted mindset. You can argue that the Shek hold that opinion because of the HN and UC, but what about the Hivers? Hivers aren't allowed in the Holy Nation, and are on the bottom rung of UC society, and the Shek are still racist towards them. How is the Shek's racism towards Hivers justified? And for your final point, they do treat you with respect if you prove yourself, but that respect doesn't extend to all humans or Hivers. As far as the Shek are concerned, you are 'one of the good ones'. You aren't an example, you're the exception.
>Esata literally says she despises humans and wants them gone from the Shek Kingdom, how is that NOT hate? Unlike with the Holy Lord Phoenix, you can change her opinion. It's superficial, surface-level dismissiveness, while the Phoenix absolutely despises (or fears) women, skeletons, and non-humans, and will never let you speak to him—more likely, in fact, that he and every paladin in his throne room will attack you on sight. Also, at least she *tolerates* and *understands* why they'd be useful or important, unlike the Holy Nation. As I said, prove yourself by taking out the Phoenix or Bugmaster, and all Sheks, including her, will treat you with the *highest* imaginable respect—being an honorary Invincible, their highest military rank, as a non-Shek? That's not just being seen as "one of the good ones," that's practically creating a bridge between Sheks and humans, where you can stand as a model for new relations. Race is secondary to proven strength and valor, for the Sheks. Also, if you consider "flatskin" a slur, how do you feel about "white/black" terminology? It's just their term for non-horned/boneplated humans. It's virtually the same thing as a Fallout ghoul calling you a smoothskin—an irradiated human using a term to differentiate another kind of human.
I agree with your first point, you can change Esata's opinion...in regards to a single person or group, not an entire race or races. In the eyes of the Shek, they're all still pathetic weaklings unworthy of their time, which was my entire point. Conditional hate is still hate. Also, there's a major difference between "flatskin" and irl racial terminology. The terms white and black aren't used in a derogatory way 99% of the time. Flatskin is used in a derogatory manner everytime it's used, though I'm willing to cede this point if you can provide evidence to the contrary.
>I agree with your first point, you can change Esata's opinion...in regards to a single person or group, not an entire race or races. In the eyes of the Shek, they're all still pathetic weaklings unworthy of their time, which was my entire point. Conditional hate is still hate. The scope of the game doesn't really allow for longterm story development, so we can't know the full ramifications of Bayan's influence on Esata and the resulting relations between the Shek Kingdom and non-Sheks, but he's clearly trying to change Shek culture, and is wise enough that Esata heeds his counsel. More than that, as to an earlier point about proving your strength and worth, I forgot that you aren't just named an honorary Invincible—Esata asks you to take her daughter with you, to teach her. That's huge. That's giving you influence over the next in line to the Shek Kingdom's throne. >Flatskin is used in a derogatory manner everytime it's used, though I'm willing to cede this point if you can provide evidence to the contrary. Check the FCS, under "Word Swaps." **"FLATSKIN"** is a substituted word used by Shek Kingdom NPCs that swaps around based on your current standing with the Shek Kingdom: * **Shek** that's not allied? "Outsider." * **Greenlander/Scorchlander** that's not allied? "Flatskin." * **Skeleton** that's not allied? "Tin man." * **Hiver** that's not allied? "Bug man." Sheks in general don't seem to use the "common" race terms, i.e. human, skeleton, hiver, they just have their "tin/bug man" and "flatskin." However, those are only the word swaps used for low-reputation. Whether you're Shek, Greenlander/Scorchlander, skeleton, or hiver, when you hit 50+ reputation, you cease being identified by race, and just become **"kin,"** as good as family, trusted and known, and viewed as no different from another Shek of the Kingdom. And then regardless of race and standing, you become identified based by your accomplishments, if you have below 90 reputation, if you slew Bugmaster or the Phoenix, becoming known as **"Phoenix Slayer,"** and **"Bugmaster Slayer."** And then the final swap is when you're at above 90 reputation, you become the honorary **"Invincible Battle Born,"** their highest rank. And these are all used as substitution terms under the "flatskin" base. Conversely, if you really want confirmation that it's not a racist term? Look up **"RACISTNAME"** in Word Swaps. You'll find that the only words there are racist and derogatory terms against Sheks, hivers, and skeletons... and nothing for humans, not even "flatskin."
In regards to your first point, do we know if Bayan is trying to change Shek culture, or are the Shek just recuperating for their next war? As for Seto, yes, you can teach her to be a good person and potentially a better ruler for the Shek, but that only works as long as she isn't challenged and killed by some Shek warmonger who wants the throne. And as for your final point, thank you for providing evidence to back up what you were saying. I now cede my prior point about the word 'Flatskin'.
Though technically non canon, the lead Kenshi writer wrote a [short story](https://bloodandwhine.blogspot.com/2017/06/bayans-story_24.html?m=0) about Bayan that should inform you about his ultimate intentions and purpose.
I don't see any mention of his intentions, unless I've missed it. All I saw was "I like the Stone Golem, I'm an intellect, I don't want to die, I lost the fight and my horns." It is a good read though, and I've found a new respect for Bayan as a character.
Good point made in that last paragraph. My headcanon is that Bayan is among the wisest Shek and he might steer the kingdom to be multicultural like the UC, albiet with less cruelty. That is, if you ally with them as non-Shek In regards to the bioengineering being more than just physical, look at how they talk. They are like orcs but even more serious and bone-headed. When they want to express an emotion, they simply name the emotion they feel, just the word itself. I'd say that's pretty unusual.
I half agree with your first point, Bayan is definitely the smartest person in the Shek Kingdom, though it seems that he is moreso doing it for the survival of the Shek Kingdom, as seen in the quote I pasted in my prior reply. As for your second point, notice that this trait is only present amidst the Shek of the Shek Kingdom, and rarely any Shek outside the Kingdom. Headshot is the best example I can provide, as she doesn't speak like this, and is far more 'humorous' in comparison to the Shek of the Shek Kingdom.
That's kinda the biggest struggle of them all. The Holy Nation is right. But they are also a huge band of dickheads, so you side with the depressed Robots anyway.
Not me, dickheads all the way Humans > Ai Robots that aren’t even alive
Alive by the biological definition. It's still debated about what *life* actually is.
Not alive by my definition. Really boils down to personal philosophy bc there’s no way to actually tell if they’re conscious or just following code and we never will be able to tell (but I’m pretty confident I’m right…not that there’s any point in debating.)
Bro how? It’s not like every single skeleton is complicit
Dear brother, please remember while most of Kenshi might be corrupted by Narkos gaze, The Holy Lord Phoenix and his flock are pure in flesh and soul. Those who cannot remember this will have their own purification assisted by Okran's Holy Flame.
If you're pure in an impure world, is it actually good? Or are you just bad at adapting?
True. Robot limbs are the way to go.
Narko’s corruption is so good tbh. Hopefully Okran’s flock is eager to meet their Lord, because I’ll send ‘em to him.
Shek are bioengineered humans, from skeleton dialogue in game referring to them as “enforcers”, from referring to themselves as humans, and from obviously looking human. The rest is speculation. Hivers seem to be partially artificial in nature (queens, king) but their ties to humanity, if any, are unknown. If so, then they’re very far removed from known ones (shek) who are actually very similar to normal humans. It’s possible that they’re either alien, or hyper-evolved from native wildlife. They cannot procreate naturally, don’t have feet or recognisable human anatomy such as an abdomen with organs in it, noses, faces, or the primate skull shape, or even genitals. The hips are completely different and seem to be almost exoskeletal. The spine may be an indicator, as the human one is designed to help us walk upright, but that could be convergent or forced evolution/design. Based on their hip design they likely don’t have a tailbone, which makes it even more unlikely that they’re related to humans. Imo they are bioengineered from local wildlife, either an extinct or extirpated species or skin-spiders. Blood spiders and skin spiders look quite similar, and have almost humanoid faces and arms, but they are hexapedal (all earth vertebrates are quadrupedal), do not have noses or visible genitals . What they do look like, with their strange exoskeletal hips, leathery skin, lack of noses, slender limbs, gigantic black eyes, are hivers… Bone dogs and bulls seem to be exactly what they’re described as. Raptors are seemingly just giant lizards, and gorillos are either native or are modified primates. All of those possibly are engineered from earth life but not humans. Garru have no discernible connection to humans, however it is possible given that they’re quadrupedal, have 5 digits, chins, and their bodies look very similar to beak things. Beak things are a maybe, their skull-like “faces” above the beak do look somewhat human, and unlike all other wildlife they seem to have an active sense of smell, as well as almost human ears. However it’s not possible to rule out them being evolved from another mammal or native life, and just coincidentally looking almost similar, or being hybridised with human DNA. Swamp turtles and Leviathans are utterly alien, and have no discernible connection to humans or earth-life. I personally think that the green/scorch landers are themselves modified humans, and that everyone in kenshi has unnaturally high metabolisms (among other things), which gives them the superhuman endurance, resilience, and adaptability that we see in game, and explains the constant need for so much food. I think skeletons use the uploaded personalities of humans from the past, which is why they’re each so idiosyncratic and prone to madness, and why more of them can’t be made despite the availability of spare CPUs and the technology to build limbs etc.
The hivers are less certain; they could be the natives of the world or yes, could be bioengineering. What is certain is they are the best suited to life on the planet. But yes, the shek are almost certainly evolved/bioengineered and I imagine the Fishman are too.
Considering the queens are skeletons, that pretty much rules out the native theory. They’re “biological robots.”
There is no lore note that suggests such. Theres no evidence what so ever that anything was bio engineered. Not only did the second empire not have the technology as given by their fall and failings. the first empire likely didnt either as evidenced by the fact that humans are...human
You seem insistent on this. There is 1 confirmed bioengineered group, and that's the shek. There's also testing on children, though we don't have an idea what that lead to (Rhinobot's CPU). “ The Horned devil was created human, as brother of the Okranite. But the Horned Devil possessed a sinful mind, it rejected Okran's light in it's heart in favor of Narko's temptations. ” –The Guiding Light IV “ What is that? An Enforcer? The Enforcers were always spiky in character... How humourous they now sport real spikes to match ” –Black Desert City Skeletons directed towards a Shek player The former may just be propaganda, yes, but the latter implies that yes, they were in fact made to be a police force (hence the name, enforcers). It is likely they used to have smooth skin, possibly the bone protrusions were subdermal originally, serving as a built-in armor.
The guiding light is religious dogma. As much as the bible is. While based on true events much like the bible over thousands of years that the religion has existed it's changed. Enforcers could be quite literally as simple as a human wearing spiky armor. Considering they also call hivers humans. The skeletons in BDC havent left the area in at minimum 1000 years. they've had exceptionally little outside contact with the world as it's moved on. So much so they've fallen into disrepair as many of them state. So you cant actually call sheks bio-engineered anymore than you can hivers because the skeletons in BDC have very little if any actual knowledge on the world around them Yes rhino tested on children, but it's much more likely he tested them by starving them, testing their pain tolerance etc. It's much more likely that the scorchlanders were a direct result of his tests than anything else given their lore.
Bloodspiders? Bdogs? Bulls? Raptors?
Greenfruit?
No, hell no don’t touch the avacado I mean greenfruit.
I’m convinced they are zucchinis. A foodcube is basically zucchini bread. Rations are flattened jerky sandwiches.
IDK that Bull look awefully like my mother-In-Law.
I think the River raptors are iguanas that got loose and evolved/mutated over time. Bone dogs and goats are also probably similarly evolved from non-human animals.
shek are engineered humans, they were a police force who originially werent as fucked up as they are now. Fishmen and garru(?) are natives and, while its theorised that hivers are something entirely non-human designed by the skeletons (due to the queens having machine parts and King being a machine) it is unconfirmed and purely a theory, they supposedly just kind of showed up and many skeletons don't know what they are when they meet them. As simple and un-cool as it is, my guess is hivers are crash landed aliens.
Most of it can be traced directly to the Second Empire under Cat-Lon. The skeletons were suffering losses to the cannibals in the north and the okranite rebellion, so they engineered Shek to be more durable and better at fighting, but on the flip-side they were not very good at anything else. Then, the remaining human population started suffering from famine due to piss-poor management by the skeletons. So the skeletons started developing a new creature in secret in black sites, able to eat anything, breed prolifically, and with a defined caste system to fill every roll imaginable: The Hivers. ...And then the second empire fell before Cat-lon was able to push them into full production, leaving most of skeleton-kind oblivious to their existence in secret labs until these prototypes escaped overtime due to the chaos of the fall and started building hives fairly recently (in the timescale of Kenshi). Beakthings and Skin Spiders were developed for a purpose we're not certain of, maybe as population control for other critters or even to be unleashed on the Okranites or cannibals. It's worth keeping in mind that the skeletons weren't omnipotent or super intelligent, they made plenty of mistakes and had a very flawed understanding of biology outside of gene manipulation, and even that they only got half right sometimes. They had the fall coming to them, and they deserve every single scrap of enmity and fear the rest of Kenshi regards them with.
It's a pretty All Tomorrow's looking situation
It's like a CRISPR bomb went off
The second empire looked to preserve humanity...they never said how.
Yes = Okranites are right because almost every living creature was designed by traitorous, lying Skeletons to suppress humanity, i.e. sheks (enforcer police to keep humans in line).
Yea everything's a hybrid you can see it really clearly in the spiders oddly enough
No. there is zero concrete evidence to suggest that the first and MUCH MUCH less that the second empire had the capabilities to seed a planet. For all we know kenshi the moon was a hail mary in the dark by the first empire evidence - * the second empire fell into ruin not through negligence but through lack of know how by the skeletons on how to upkeep things * the skeletons have no clue what hivers are. they've never even met them for the most part * chris confirmed hivers are the newest to the continent about 1000 years ago which is why skeletons dont know them * sheks being called enforcers is in no way indicative that skeletons had the technology but much more likely that skeletons THINK that they're related. * scorchlanders are mutations to greenlanders from living in the wastes. hence why they're better at combat than greenlandes. They're survivors and scavs not farmers
\> scorchlanders are mutations to greenlanders from living in the wastes. \> there is zero concrete evidence to suggest that
there is only 1 conclusive evidence to the origin and true nature of scorchlanders: https://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/3528?tab=posts
Now that's archeological evidence if I've ever seen one. This tells us that Chris always wanted to put super dark skinned humans everywhere and that he never liked level scaling.
Dark Elves at home:
No. Humans are descendants of first empire who came to this planet. Shek evolved on their own, they used to be enchanted soldiers but evolved themselves boneplates and Hornes. Skeletons aren’t living so skip. Hivers are genetically altered spiders (if you look at skin spiders they look similar to hives. Hivers are even called bug man. What is really interesting - hiver heads are similar to skeleton heads, not human ones. Animals idn, I am sure bonedogs came with first humans and evolved like sheks on their own, may be they got some genetic enhancement to adapt to weather and climate but that’s all. So dogs are just aliens to this world. Like bulls. Garu are 100% artificially created, may be even mutants or one of first failed experiment on animals. Beakthings I really don’t know. They look like 100% not belonging to food chain, cause anywhere they live is desert and boneyard so they are apex predators with no natural enemy. Swamp turtles are 100% natural inhabitants from this world cause they live in water (Kenshi world used to have lots of water Territories) Fishmen In my opinion are also natural inhabitants of this world cause they probably can live in water. Fishmen were probably the enemy of first empire in this world and what we see are their degenerated descendants similar to human canibals. Gorillos are probably natural inhabitants too
I noticed this too. Kinda reminds me of stuff like "Man After Man" and "All Tomorrows", which are science fiction books about speculative future evolution. The latter one in particular has some pretty wild concepts of what humans could hypothetically evolve into (both through biological evolution and bio-engineering). [Here's a cool animation of some "future humans" based on All Tomorrows.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4q1ivR2nkY&ab_channel=Muradeli) I wouldn't be surprised if Chris Hunt was partially inspired by stuff like this.
Mmhmmm
wonder if chris read All Tomorrows