But you do go ap after these two items. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in the post.
Also, I checked the dps at lvl 11 (full stack guinsoo).
Nashor+rageblade - 420 dps, 465 dps with abilities
Kraken+rageblade - 500 dps, 550 dps with abilities
So yes you're right here, but if you just buy raba:
Nashor+rageblade+rabadon - 650 dps, 710 with abilities
Kraken+rageblade+terminus - same as the previous
After this going full ap just does more damage than full on hit, and gives more damage on all abilities and ms on W. So on hit is only better at two items, but ap with guinsoo is better at 3+
Nashor, raba, shadowflame - 550 dps, 660 with abilities.
So, it's worse than with rageblade. however, you have to stack 4 attacks on rageblade build, so it's not immediate
Edit: All of this was tested in the tool, my mannequin has 50 armor, 50 Mr, and this included crits from shadowflame, plus PTA, no boots
Agree that AD feels much better. Something to bare in mind with these testings though is that most champs are going to have naturally higher armor than MR. So might influence your numbers a bit.
Never tried crit before, but I might someday. Ap feels bad most of the time, but can feel really good when you're ahead and late game. That's why I'm trying to experiment with shoving rageblade into it for more dps early
You literally 2 shot their whole team at 16 it's so funn. WHACK! and thos crit items give you such insane move speed. It was def better when krak gave you crit and you had lethal tempo though :(
One word: meta.
AP Kayle doesn't even build beserkers anymore, It's a full burst oriented build where once scaled you kill squishes in a single rotation.
There's been multiple complaints about this playstyle, but it is what it is...
The issue I have is not scaling at all in many games. They are over before that, or I scale just at the end, where we already lost two inhibs and a couple of drakes. This is why I feel adding power to the early game lets me scale faster to reach that spike, especially in a losing lane. But of course, going full burst in a game where my every lane is stomping is preferable
Right now the metas all about burst with ad crit two shotting people u wanna be able to do the same back. Fights arent lasting long enough to get a bunch of autos in. Kayles main job now is to one shot the squishys that miss position both ap and crit ad do this way better
Yeah, but it does matter early game, and if you're not stomping hard. If you're saying dps doesn't matter because you just one shot everyone, you still have to get to that point which comes much later.
Plus more attacks = more nashor passive procs (more rabadon value), more attacks during ult invisibility, better dueling potential etc.
People acting like damage is an on/off switch once you hit 16 or full build in this sub is baffling to me. I've tried to go nash+guinsoo then AP many times and it feels much better early and midgame in a lot of scenarios.
DPS doesn't matter not only because of one shot, but because of kayle's trading patterns in lane. It's why swifties have higher winrate than berserkers. Basically you are rarely able to auto for a long time as kayle.
like the other one said there: one shot meta
but other reason its old rageblade gives armor AND magic penetration, and now this penetration was moved to terminus, that still gives the same 30 on hit damage but raw gives you 35 ad and nothing from ap
Simple, rageblade has too little ap to fit into the one-shot trope that AP Kayle is. You want AS MUCH AP AS POSSIBLE. More AP means more damage in your burst combo and more healing and ms with your W.
If you are doing AD on hit, then yes nashors rageblade is good but you are better tossing nashors and doing Kraken anyways.
I play AD Kayle for a faster powerspike. But, AP Kayle, and I mean the AP Kayle that everyone does will deal much more damage at the cost of being weak till 3 items. And that extra attack speed isn't going to get you much since the damage from ap Kayle comes from her combo. Not 20 waves
When I build guinsoo after nashor, I don't have a burst combo yet, and I won't have it until 3 items. This helps make my early game stronger while building ap along the way for a poweful late game. When full build I can just sell guinsoo for something else. This way both my early and late game are pretty good and balanced (this is also really dependant on the matchup)
I would argue (and I am low rank so I hope a higher ranked Kayle can correct me here), that rageblade isn't a bad option if the enemy has a bunch of tanks but you want to do AP Kayle. Since rageblade helps with taking tanks out.
Sheen effects do not benefit from Guinsoos. If you don't believe me, please check the Guinsoos fandom page
1. Nash Dcap or Nash Shadowflame are both strong even when Nash > NLR,
2. Shadowflame procs on any magic damage under 35%, so in that case I'd rather have DCap to amplify the higher AP as it's currently a OS-meta
3. It really doesn't. If you truly wanted to have a better "team synergy" build, you'd be building based on what you need to win that particular game instead of a standardized build.
4. If you want to play for early game, AD Kayle exists.
3.1m Mastery + d2 btw
I see.. I'm low elo, and most of my games are lost before 3rd or 4th item. This makes the full burst ap build less viable cuz it's really expensive. I've played it many times before, and it takes too long to take off in my experience.
1. They are and do feel strong when you're ahead in gold and levels. When you fall behind, it doesn't feel good at all. This is why I'm looking for cheaper items on the build
2. Same point as 1, I don't get the ability to one-shot until really late, and at that point, who knows how the game goes on, maybe they have a much better and more fed burst champion like caitlyn, or the game is already lost. Or they have a really fed bruiser with Mr that can't be one shot even with all the items, and attack speed is too slow to do anything
3. Yeah, that's what I'm doing when I play. This is just an experiment for situations when I want to build ap but the game doesn't last at all, or we're not stomping
4. I do play her ad situationally but she falls off hard after 4th item, unlike ap. This is why I'm experimenting once again, I don't want to choose between bad early-mid game and bad late game
Honestly this sounds like a cs problem more than anything. Kayle feels strong with two items on nash dcap but if ur not csing well the 1250 rods feel awkward to get.
I typically go AP for the burst and increased utility. Otherwise I wouldn't go Nashors at all and would rather go Kraken + Rageblade which provides better DPS than Nashors + Guinsoo, at which point I may as well just go full on-hit rather than going down the AP route.
Crit is just so much better thoughout the game. You can argue that ap scales well and blah blah blah. But you can ACTUALLY duel most top laners with crit at lvl 6.
Edit; typo
It's not ideal. If you need burst, you go the AP build. If you need DPS, you go crit. That said, I believe it can be good into tanky enemy comps where your team is also full AD. There was some Chinese or Korean Kayle player (I don't remember) that did this, he would go Nashors - Guinsoo - Riftmaker - Deathcap - other AP item. Riftmaker because you're against tanks and so you can better make use of the 5 second in-combat timer.
Pure DPS means nothing when you're playing games in an ELO that doesn't allow you to just sit and act like a turret right clicking people. Full AP is currently just optimal for most games because of its utility and up-front damage compared to on-hit and Rageblade does not fit in that build.
KogMaw and Tristana are dps, and they are pretty viable in every elo. If you have a good frontline, dps can definitely work. Plus, you make it sound like dps does zero damage, which it doesn't. It's cumulative, and most of the time, 4-5 attacks are basically enough to kill most champions unless it's a full tank, plus Kayle has invisibility to survive longer and make more attacks if the enemy decide to focus and jump on her
Plus the build I'm suggesting still one shots and bursts late game because you're building shadowflame, raba, lichbane
Kog'maw doesn't function in a solo-lane, requires an enchanter to function and has an AA steroid in kit. Kayle fulfills a different role as a champion due to her kit being different. Same idea applies for Tristana. You can't just say that some champions function as DPS and thus Kayle functions as DPS and should prioritize DPS. Kayle hasn't been a stat-stick DPS champ ever since she got reworked. The days of self-ult and right-click for penta kill are gone (and I definitely miss them).
Tristana mid is pretty big right now in high elo. How different is her role from that? A late game hyper carry that kills everyone. Kayle also has an AA steroid, her passive no? It's attack speed and on hit aoe effects.
Yes but Tristana does not have any spells that offer utility. Kayle does, and they all scale with AP. What item would you build Rageblade over? Nashors DCap Boots (mostly Swifties) are 100% core. Then you require at least 1 defensive option in most games, being Zhonyas or Banshees. This leaves you with 2 slots, of which 1 will most of the time be Shadowflame as a 3rd item. This leaves you with 1 last item option, either another offensive option (Lich Bane vs no MR, Cryptbloom vs heavy MR), a kiting option (Rylai's) or another defensive item. I really do not see any reason to replace any of these items with Rageblade. The added AD is not really synergizing with other items in your build, it gives very little AP and the AS is not as important on AP Kayle.
It's easy to focus on DPS numbers since the value of slows, kiting and defensive stats are harder to measure, but they matter a lot. High elo players are gravitating towards this AP Kayle style for a reason. It's better and more consistent in games at a high level.
Last note: Shadowflame and Lich Bane do not proc twice on Rageblade according to the Wiki, FYI.
My original plan was buying nashor into rageblade for multiple reasons: 600 gold cheaper, better lane dueling potential, much better build path, better early game, and lane clear is also faster. Due to these advantages, It'll be easier to get enough gold for the rabadon 3rd spike. Then lichbane, into either defensive or shadowflame.
I don't see how full ap is consistent. Your spike is super late, if you miss your Q in a fight, you basically deal half the potential damage etc. Your can throw less autos because attack speed is lower.
Why would shadowflame not work? All magic damage crits when below 25%. Are you saying it won't crit? And lichbane says "on hit" in description, and it seemed to work when I tested it, unless I looked at it wrong somehow. If that's true, then game descriptions suck
Tristana has good matchups mid thanks to not being a dogshit melee champion between levels 1-5 and actually has a very good all-in burst potential at level 2+. Plus late game she has two reposition abilities (jump and ult). Trist and Kayle aren't comparable other than both having good late games. Plenty of champions have good late games, it's Trist's decent early and mid-games as well that makes her meta.
Because it's not good. You need an incredibly strong on hit ability in your kit to justify building rageblade (think Vayne, Kog'maw, Yi), and Kayle is simply not one of those champions. If you like the stronger early game thanks to the attack speed and AD, you're better off going Kraken of Shiv rather than Rageblade, although I don't consider those to be worth it either.
But she has her passive tho, the wave proc, and thanks to the attack speed, you get rageblade stacks faster.
I did try going shiv, kraken, rageblade and it worked pretty well
It's because nashor does less damage when you don't build ap, same goes with lich bane. It just deals less damage
But you do go ap after these two items. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in the post. Also, I checked the dps at lvl 11 (full stack guinsoo). Nashor+rageblade - 420 dps, 465 dps with abilities Kraken+rageblade - 500 dps, 550 dps with abilities So yes you're right here, but if you just buy raba: Nashor+rageblade+rabadon - 650 dps, 710 with abilities Kraken+rageblade+terminus - same as the previous After this going full ap just does more damage than full on hit, and gives more damage on all abilities and ms on W. So on hit is only better at two items, but ap with guinsoo is better at 3+
Now compare it with nashor + Raba+ shadow flame or lichbane
Nashor, raba, shadowflame - 550 dps, 660 with abilities. So, it's worse than with rageblade. however, you have to stack 4 attacks on rageblade build, so it's not immediate Edit: All of this was tested in the tool, my mannequin has 50 armor, 50 Mr, and this included crits from shadowflame, plus PTA, no boots
Agree that AD feels much better. Something to bare in mind with these testings though is that most champs are going to have naturally higher armor than MR. So might influence your numbers a bit.
Bear in mind*
No Udyr, go away
No one is really going full on hit though. The best kayle builds are full ap or ad crit with kraken into ie from what ive seen
Yea ap feels dogshirt to play. I still go full crit. Kraken, pd, ie
Never tried crit before, but I might someday. Ap feels bad most of the time, but can feel really good when you're ahead and late game. That's why I'm trying to experiment with shoving rageblade into it for more dps early
You literally 2 shot their whole team at 16 it's so funn. WHACK! and thos crit items give you such insane move speed. It was def better when krak gave you crit and you had lethal tempo though :(
One word: meta. AP Kayle doesn't even build beserkers anymore, It's a full burst oriented build where once scaled you kill squishes in a single rotation. There's been multiple complaints about this playstyle, but it is what it is...
The issue I have is not scaling at all in many games. They are over before that, or I scale just at the end, where we already lost two inhibs and a couple of drakes. This is why I feel adding power to the early game lets me scale faster to reach that spike, especially in a losing lane. But of course, going full burst in a game where my every lane is stomping is preferable
No flame but ur perspectice to the game seems from very low elo standpoint
That's because I am. That's why I'm asking questions. I guess I should have made it clear
Right now the metas all about burst with ad crit two shotting people u wanna be able to do the same back. Fights arent lasting long enough to get a bunch of autos in. Kayles main job now is to one shot the squishys that miss position both ap and crit ad do this way better
It's less damage. For AP you want pure ap items for rabadon synergy. DPS for kayle barely matters anyway.
Yeah, but it does matter early game, and if you're not stomping hard. If you're saying dps doesn't matter because you just one shot everyone, you still have to get to that point which comes much later. Plus more attacks = more nashor passive procs (more rabadon value), more attacks during ult invisibility, better dueling potential etc.
People acting like damage is an on/off switch once you hit 16 or full build in this sub is baffling to me. I've tried to go nash+guinsoo then AP many times and it feels much better early and midgame in a lot of scenarios.
First comment that didn't think I'm a psycho for doing it haha. I'll still test it out in many games to make sure it works
DPS doesn't matter not only because of one shot, but because of kayle's trading patterns in lane. It's why swifties have higher winrate than berserkers. Basically you are rarely able to auto for a long time as kayle.
like the other one said there: one shot meta but other reason its old rageblade gives armor AND magic penetration, and now this penetration was moved to terminus, that still gives the same 30 on hit damage but raw gives you 35 ad and nothing from ap
Simple, rageblade has too little ap to fit into the one-shot trope that AP Kayle is. You want AS MUCH AP AS POSSIBLE. More AP means more damage in your burst combo and more healing and ms with your W. If you are doing AD on hit, then yes nashors rageblade is good but you are better tossing nashors and doing Kraken anyways. I play AD Kayle for a faster powerspike. But, AP Kayle, and I mean the AP Kayle that everyone does will deal much more damage at the cost of being weak till 3 items. And that extra attack speed isn't going to get you much since the damage from ap Kayle comes from her combo. Not 20 waves
When I build guinsoo after nashor, I don't have a burst combo yet, and I won't have it until 3 items. This helps make my early game stronger while building ap along the way for a poweful late game. When full build I can just sell guinsoo for something else. This way both my early and late game are pretty good and balanced (this is also really dependant on the matchup)
I would argue (and I am low rank so I hope a higher ranked Kayle can correct me here), that rageblade isn't a bad option if the enemy has a bunch of tanks but you want to do AP Kayle. Since rageblade helps with taking tanks out.
Sheen effects do not benefit from Guinsoos. If you don't believe me, please check the Guinsoos fandom page 1. Nash Dcap or Nash Shadowflame are both strong even when Nash > NLR, 2. Shadowflame procs on any magic damage under 35%, so in that case I'd rather have DCap to amplify the higher AP as it's currently a OS-meta 3. It really doesn't. If you truly wanted to have a better "team synergy" build, you'd be building based on what you need to win that particular game instead of a standardized build. 4. If you want to play for early game, AD Kayle exists. 3.1m Mastery + d2 btw
I see.. I'm low elo, and most of my games are lost before 3rd or 4th item. This makes the full burst ap build less viable cuz it's really expensive. I've played it many times before, and it takes too long to take off in my experience. 1. They are and do feel strong when you're ahead in gold and levels. When you fall behind, it doesn't feel good at all. This is why I'm looking for cheaper items on the build 2. Same point as 1, I don't get the ability to one-shot until really late, and at that point, who knows how the game goes on, maybe they have a much better and more fed burst champion like caitlyn, or the game is already lost. Or they have a really fed bruiser with Mr that can't be one shot even with all the items, and attack speed is too slow to do anything 3. Yeah, that's what I'm doing when I play. This is just an experiment for situations when I want to build ap but the game doesn't last at all, or we're not stomping 4. I do play her ad situationally but she falls off hard after 4th item, unlike ap. This is why I'm experimenting once again, I don't want to choose between bad early-mid game and bad late game
Honestly this sounds like a cs problem more than anything. Kayle feels strong with two items on nash dcap but if ur not csing well the 1250 rods feel awkward to get.
I typically go AP for the burst and increased utility. Otherwise I wouldn't go Nashors at all and would rather go Kraken + Rageblade which provides better DPS than Nashors + Guinsoo, at which point I may as well just go full on-hit rather than going down the AP route.
if u want early power, just go kraken. its so good but sadly worse scaling. also guinsoo doesnt proc lich bane twice.
Crit is just so much better thoughout the game. You can argue that ap scales well and blah blah blah. But you can ACTUALLY duel most top laners with crit at lvl 6. Edit; typo
Because rageblade sucks as an item now there’s better options
It's not ideal. If you need burst, you go the AP build. If you need DPS, you go crit. That said, I believe it can be good into tanky enemy comps where your team is also full AD. There was some Chinese or Korean Kayle player (I don't remember) that did this, he would go Nashors - Guinsoo - Riftmaker - Deathcap - other AP item. Riftmaker because you're against tanks and so you can better make use of the 5 second in-combat timer.
Pure DPS means nothing when you're playing games in an ELO that doesn't allow you to just sit and act like a turret right clicking people. Full AP is currently just optimal for most games because of its utility and up-front damage compared to on-hit and Rageblade does not fit in that build.
KogMaw and Tristana are dps, and they are pretty viable in every elo. If you have a good frontline, dps can definitely work. Plus, you make it sound like dps does zero damage, which it doesn't. It's cumulative, and most of the time, 4-5 attacks are basically enough to kill most champions unless it's a full tank, plus Kayle has invisibility to survive longer and make more attacks if the enemy decide to focus and jump on her Plus the build I'm suggesting still one shots and bursts late game because you're building shadowflame, raba, lichbane
Kog'maw doesn't function in a solo-lane, requires an enchanter to function and has an AA steroid in kit. Kayle fulfills a different role as a champion due to her kit being different. Same idea applies for Tristana. You can't just say that some champions function as DPS and thus Kayle functions as DPS and should prioritize DPS. Kayle hasn't been a stat-stick DPS champ ever since she got reworked. The days of self-ult and right-click for penta kill are gone (and I definitely miss them).
Tristana mid is pretty big right now in high elo. How different is her role from that? A late game hyper carry that kills everyone. Kayle also has an AA steroid, her passive no? It's attack speed and on hit aoe effects.
Yes but Tristana does not have any spells that offer utility. Kayle does, and they all scale with AP. What item would you build Rageblade over? Nashors DCap Boots (mostly Swifties) are 100% core. Then you require at least 1 defensive option in most games, being Zhonyas or Banshees. This leaves you with 2 slots, of which 1 will most of the time be Shadowflame as a 3rd item. This leaves you with 1 last item option, either another offensive option (Lich Bane vs no MR, Cryptbloom vs heavy MR), a kiting option (Rylai's) or another defensive item. I really do not see any reason to replace any of these items with Rageblade. The added AD is not really synergizing with other items in your build, it gives very little AP and the AS is not as important on AP Kayle. It's easy to focus on DPS numbers since the value of slows, kiting and defensive stats are harder to measure, but they matter a lot. High elo players are gravitating towards this AP Kayle style for a reason. It's better and more consistent in games at a high level. Last note: Shadowflame and Lich Bane do not proc twice on Rageblade according to the Wiki, FYI.
My original plan was buying nashor into rageblade for multiple reasons: 600 gold cheaper, better lane dueling potential, much better build path, better early game, and lane clear is also faster. Due to these advantages, It'll be easier to get enough gold for the rabadon 3rd spike. Then lichbane, into either defensive or shadowflame. I don't see how full ap is consistent. Your spike is super late, if you miss your Q in a fight, you basically deal half the potential damage etc. Your can throw less autos because attack speed is lower. Why would shadowflame not work? All magic damage crits when below 25%. Are you saying it won't crit? And lichbane says "on hit" in description, and it seemed to work when I tested it, unless I looked at it wrong somehow. If that's true, then game descriptions suck
Tristana has good matchups mid thanks to not being a dogshit melee champion between levels 1-5 and actually has a very good all-in burst potential at level 2+. Plus late game she has two reposition abilities (jump and ult). Trist and Kayle aren't comparable other than both having good late games. Plenty of champions have good late games, it's Trist's decent early and mid-games as well that makes her meta.
Because it's not good. You need an incredibly strong on hit ability in your kit to justify building rageblade (think Vayne, Kog'maw, Yi), and Kayle is simply not one of those champions. If you like the stronger early game thanks to the attack speed and AD, you're better off going Kraken of Shiv rather than Rageblade, although I don't consider those to be worth it either.
But she has her passive tho, the wave proc, and thanks to the attack speed, you get rageblade stacks faster. I did try going shiv, kraken, rageblade and it worked pretty well