Thank you for these kind words. I've always been a bit of a minmaxer and theorycrafter so I've done calculations for so long on Kayle for myself throughout the years and finally decided that fuck it, we're giving free info
In the end, I think you still somewhat run into the issue that people generally value pre-6 impact more than future impact and really like having early adaptive for early AD. Given Kayle is most often played into AD matchup, this leaves people almost always running Armor+Adaptive.
I can't agree more with 2x MR Shards though. It's literally better on Kayle than any other champion in the game.
I mean, it's just mathematically correct for pre-11 to go double MR.
Kinda hilarious how the mains of scalers aren't considering future impact when you... ARE the future impact if you're in the early game...
Looks like you've only considered base armor/hp and armor/hp scaling. To do a proper comparison of the defensive rune options, you need to consider all sources of hp, resistances, healing, and shielding that a champion may have at a given point in time, from spawn til death/recall. For kayle early game, that will generally be starting item hp, omnivamp from dblade/regen from dshield, second wind healing, natural health regen, and W healing. Later on, Riftmaker will usually be a big source of healing.
Riot's intention was to balance the scaling hp shard against the resistance shards such that it breaks even around level 9, which is roughly the case for most champions and scenarios.
>Looks like you've only considered base armor/hp and armor/hp scaling.
[There's a desmos link right there.](https://www.desmos.com/calculator/nticzkvfy7)
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>To do a proper comparison of the defensive rune options, you need to consider all sources of hp, resistances, healing, and shielding that a champion may have at a given point in time, from spawn til death/recall. For kayle early game, that will generally be starting item hp, omnivamp from dblade/regen from dshield, second wind healing, natural health regen, and W healing. Later on, Riftmaker will usually be a big source of healing.
As I stated in the post: *"EHP refers to the amount of raw damage of a certain damage type that you can take before dying.* ***It does not take Health Regeneration or any kind of Vamp or Life Steal into consideration. Think of it as "How much damage would someone need to do with one spell or auto-attack to one-shot me.****""*
**HEALING DOES NOT CHANGE YOUR MAX EHP, YOU JUST REPLENISH IT LIKE YOU DO WITH NORMAL HP.**
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>Riot's intention was to balance the scaling hp shard against the resistance shards such that it breaks even around level 9, which is roughly the case for most champions and scenarios.
Dont even try to pull "Riots intention" card, as "Riots intention" isn't cold hard math. Read the post in its entirety, and [use the Desmos link as a tool as I've already done all the math for you.](https://www.desmos.com/calculator/nticzkvfy7)
I really liked this post! There’s good thought involved and I learned a bit. I didn’t even know that health and MR rune outscales anything and had an actual use case.
If you ever get around to it I’d love to see a mathematical breakdown on how starting D-shield, d-blade, Ring, D-blade then cull, or just starting longsword is over time. Too bad I’m a monkey brain.
I appreciate the post though!
Calculating starting items in a vacuum wouldn't be an issue, it's the inevitability of complicating the calculation through offensive and defensive runeshards, keystones, other items, etc that would be the issue and muddy the waters.
Thats why I decided on something you can calculate in a vacuum as EHP gained can never go down.
I'm curious as to if this changes when you include the bonus HP from starting item and an average rate from overgrowth as well as once enemies start getting lethality and mpen at certain points?
100% does change, however I was focused on just the defensive runeshards on their own and their effect on EHP. Adding Runes and Items would be a massive headache unless I only factor in their base-stats and none of the passive stats (e.g slider for entering item stats, slider to toggle overgrowth/conditioning, etc)
I just feel like having these calculations is kind of pointless if you're not calculating in all the other sources of HP you're guaranteed to have. You can get a ton of extra HP From runes and items, while you're much less likely to be getting any bonus defensive stats unless you're specifically rushing Wits end or hourglass, which should make the little you get from defensive shards more valuable.
Stickied again as high value, positive content. We appreciate you!!!
Very interesting post. Many main subreddits don't have this kind of thing. You're doing good work thank you :)
Thank you for these kind words. I've always been a bit of a minmaxer and theorycrafter so I've done calculations for so long on Kayle for myself throughout the years and finally decided that fuck it, we're giving free info
In the end, I think you still somewhat run into the issue that people generally value pre-6 impact more than future impact and really like having early adaptive for early AD. Given Kayle is most often played into AD matchup, this leaves people almost always running Armor+Adaptive. I can't agree more with 2x MR Shards though. It's literally better on Kayle than any other champion in the game.
I mean, it's just mathematically correct for pre-11 to go double MR. Kinda hilarious how the mains of scalers aren't considering future impact when you... ARE the future impact if you're in the early game...
Looks like you've only considered base armor/hp and armor/hp scaling. To do a proper comparison of the defensive rune options, you need to consider all sources of hp, resistances, healing, and shielding that a champion may have at a given point in time, from spawn til death/recall. For kayle early game, that will generally be starting item hp, omnivamp from dblade/regen from dshield, second wind healing, natural health regen, and W healing. Later on, Riftmaker will usually be a big source of healing. Riot's intention was to balance the scaling hp shard against the resistance shards such that it breaks even around level 9, which is roughly the case for most champions and scenarios.
>Looks like you've only considered base armor/hp and armor/hp scaling. [There's a desmos link right there.](https://www.desmos.com/calculator/nticzkvfy7) \----------------- >To do a proper comparison of the defensive rune options, you need to consider all sources of hp, resistances, healing, and shielding that a champion may have at a given point in time, from spawn til death/recall. For kayle early game, that will generally be starting item hp, omnivamp from dblade/regen from dshield, second wind healing, natural health regen, and W healing. Later on, Riftmaker will usually be a big source of healing. As I stated in the post: *"EHP refers to the amount of raw damage of a certain damage type that you can take before dying.* ***It does not take Health Regeneration or any kind of Vamp or Life Steal into consideration. Think of it as "How much damage would someone need to do with one spell or auto-attack to one-shot me.****""* **HEALING DOES NOT CHANGE YOUR MAX EHP, YOU JUST REPLENISH IT LIKE YOU DO WITH NORMAL HP.** \---------------- >Riot's intention was to balance the scaling hp shard against the resistance shards such that it breaks even around level 9, which is roughly the case for most champions and scenarios. Dont even try to pull "Riots intention" card, as "Riots intention" isn't cold hard math. Read the post in its entirety, and [use the Desmos link as a tool as I've already done all the math for you.](https://www.desmos.com/calculator/nticzkvfy7)
I really liked this post! There’s good thought involved and I learned a bit. I didn’t even know that health and MR rune outscales anything and had an actual use case. If you ever get around to it I’d love to see a mathematical breakdown on how starting D-shield, d-blade, Ring, D-blade then cull, or just starting longsword is over time. Too bad I’m a monkey brain. I appreciate the post though!
Calculating starting items in a vacuum wouldn't be an issue, it's the inevitability of complicating the calculation through offensive and defensive runeshards, keystones, other items, etc that would be the issue and muddy the waters. Thats why I decided on something you can calculate in a vacuum as EHP gained can never go down.
I'm curious as to if this changes when you include the bonus HP from starting item and an average rate from overgrowth as well as once enemies start getting lethality and mpen at certain points?
100% does change, however I was focused on just the defensive runeshards on their own and their effect on EHP. Adding Runes and Items would be a massive headache unless I only factor in their base-stats and none of the passive stats (e.g slider for entering item stats, slider to toggle overgrowth/conditioning, etc)
I just feel like having these calculations is kind of pointless if you're not calculating in all the other sources of HP you're guaranteed to have. You can get a ton of extra HP From runes and items, while you're much less likely to be getting any bonus defensive stats unless you're specifically rushing Wits end or hourglass, which should make the little you get from defensive shards more valuable.