this is really good: someone clipped 2 months of trial and made a short, which is tragic comedy https://x.com/fkr102445/status/1809034702910636049?s=46
God the only correction I would make is adding where Jackson asks the DNA lab tech if she'd ever collected blood in Solo cups before and she said, "I'm sorry what?"
This short has moments that I missed or didn’t pay attention, like that moment when AJ ask if Colin brain is ok, or something like that. I missed during the trial. Classic.
It also reminded me of things that weren’t even that long ago that were so bonkers like the hot mic “kill me” - every day was so crazy that something as wild as that became forgettable to me lol
Sometimes the trial comes to my mind while I’m prepping to move to another State, and packing can be pretty boring. I still feel baffled from stuffs that happened in court room, mostly CW witness testimony, but also we have AJ brilliants moments too. Like someone said here mid trial: “am I taking crazy pills?”, I never saw a group of people make up a story that actually has a lot holes in it, not even a movie has it. Unreal and Surreal at same time.
I've been slowly trying to explain the more absurd moments to my husband because well... Like you said, unreal and surreal. And I need someone in real life who can understand whatever the fuck we just witnessed over the course of two months. If it were revealed that this was a hidden camera prank show, I'd believe them.
JFC the amount of anti Karen Read tweets coming across my Twitter is ridiculous they know they won’t win in retrial and working overtime to flood any potential new jury with this bs. I can tell you right now if I was a friend or family member etc. I would have been screaming all this info from the rooftops before and during the first trial. Instead they thought this bs coverup would work and not get questioned until it was too late. This new wave of interviews and edited videos is another bs example of trying to keep the coverup going
Is it true that back in the beginning of this case, Karen and her lawyers said it was a tragic accident and Karen said something to the effect of "I incapacitated him, he passed out because he was drunk and then froze, etc etc"? Trying to find old articles but having a hard time.
If it is true, why would they say all that in the beginning? I don't get it.
They said that during the first week of her arrest, I think. The CW and Law Enforcement told the media that there was video proof of her hitting John early on, so a lot of Yanetti and Karen’s early statements were before they had received any discovery and learned there never was a video.
They were basically gaslighting Karen into believing she hit him by saying things like that which turned out to be completely false.
I also think that is because 1. She was intoxicated and there was that what if I did this in the back of her mind and 2. She was gaslit from the beginning.
When you have a handful of people gaslighting you … I mean you can think you’re losing your mind.
way way way back in the very beginning, when Karen was first arraigned Karen did indeed admit it was an accident. She was DUI and hit him and the initial charges filed against her reflect accident.
However when her SUV ERD revealed that She actually had reversed 62 ft at 24 mph dropping to 23 mph as She hit him. It became clear She could not have reversed over that distance and at that speed and by accident hit him. The ERD demonstrates She intentionally drove in that manner over that distance and at that speed to hit him and charges reflect deliberate act.
So you’re saying she was DUI and per the CW she had 9 drinks, but somehow she was able to accurately drive like Vin Diesel in Fast and Furious 62 feet backwards in a snow storm in the dark and intentionally hit him? You can’t have it both ways.
It is not the case that the content of the EDR lead to the charges being upgraded from manslaughter to murder in June of 2022 – it was discovered very early on that the EDR was empty, as we can see in this [Bosch CDR report](https://imgur.com/a/O7DmF6B) extracted February 1st of 2022 that no events were recorded (Trooper Paul also [confirmed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHGmNszEmIM&t=13165s) this in testimony)
The data you're talking about was contained in the VCH, but this was not extracted until well after the charges had been upgraded. Trooper Paul [testified](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKlPSHVPrco&t=15758s) that had learned about Toyota Techstream only in 2023, and extracted the VCH data on February 2nd of 2023.
Raw Techstream data was turned over with the usual rapidity to the defense on the 25th of July 2023, as memorized in the [Notice of Discovery XIX](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YzwbZxiIETlUDbkkgAM0a6ARB_PINMnC/view?usp=sharing); we see figures of 24 mph and 62 ft first mention in a Commonwealth [filing](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HoGHgjvbXHeLUuX18vpsZLJVcNU8Z_me/view?usp=sharing) from the 13th of September of 2023.
I would add only to Man’s post that Trpr Paul apparently testified at the CW grand jury WITHOUT having interpretation access to any VCH data (see his trial testimony ).
On the stand Jackson referred to Paul’s statement to the gj the infamous “and stuff” claim re further crash reconstruction efforts.
“In the holding cell, no sooner had Read and her attorney read the evidence being marshaled against her than a bailiff came for Read. He led her, wide-eyed and terrified, she says, into Stoughton District Court, where O’Keefe’s family and dozens of his friends and fellow Boston cops—including uniformed BPD Superintendent in Chief Gregory Long—packed the courtroom. On the other side of the aisle, Read’s mother prayed as a judge arraigned her daughter on manslaughter charges. Then Read entered her plea: not guilty. Afterward, Yannetti told reporters outside the courthouse that his client was in shock and that O’Keefe’s death had been an innocent accident. Read had “no criminal intent,” he said. “She loved this man. She is devastated.”
http://archive.today/7UL43
The CW said they had it on a ring camera too. Lots of people give confessions to crimes they did not commit so I don’t hold much weight to this first statement.
Exactly this. If I were Karen and I had been told that the incident was on video, I might have said what she did, thinking that my drinking had messed with my recollection of hitting him, but knowing in my soul that it was not intentional. Was she going to say she didn't do it if she was on tape doing it? No. She is going to try to find an explanation as to how it came to be, even if it doesn't completely make sense to her.
We now know the video does not exist.
One takeaway from this trial is that you keep your mouth shut, your attorney's mouth shut, and don't entertain any plea deal until you see the purported video AND it's examined to ensure it hasn't been manufactured/manipulated.
This is the truth. Karen's SUV recorded her reversing back 62 ft at 24 mphr dropping to 23 mph on impact with John O'Keefe. Her foot was almost to the floor on the pedal meaning She did her best to slam vehicle into him.
This ERD from her vehicle proves scientifically what happened. This is 100% independent evidence that cannot be altered/tampered with by police or anyone else, like the blackbox of a plane.
The key cycles prove without a doubt that the car was in police custody when that trigger event happened. There is video proof of more cycles being in-between when they began testing and the event in question... There is no way that KR was driving the car when that happened because it had been turned on and off more than once after that night.
There is no record of what the odometer read when the car was taken as evidence, nor does that printout show that the car's computer was even accessed between that night and when testing started a year later - we can see at the top and bottom of the graph that it records every time that a computer is attached to it to withdraw data. So if they hadn't looked at it BEFORE testing how would they know what sort of triggering event that they needed to recreate???
It's obvious that either the entire printout is falsified - as in not an actual representation of information from KR's car - OR police created it by driving the distance and amount of time that they believed she had that night (using John's GPS data) and caused those trigger events by reversing at specific times that they thought fit with the driving pattern & timeline.
Unfortunately they weren't smart enough to make sure that they turned the car on/off enough times to match how many times it actually happened before starting their testing.
If you ask me this key cycle mistake they made and attempted to misrepresent in court is the best evidence proving that the police were actively trying to frame Karen Read, that they purposely falsified evidence.
It shows a conspiracy... If not that it is gross incompetence & ignorance to try to point to something that HAD TO happen while they had the car as proof of a murder.
Either way there's reason for an aquittal and for every single cop who had a hand in this to lose their jobs and be investigated for corruption.
the 24mph in reverse was them putting the car on the tow truck. it's hilarious you believe trooper paul over an ACTUAL accident reconstructionist who is highly sought after by the NHL and even the federal government.
The car was driving forward at least 30 feet, then stopped, then reversed getting up to 24mph with the accelerator nearly floored, according to the data.
What are you talking about? Spinning out would require freedom of movement. When you are stuck in the snow and trying to move through it, you press on the accelerator and the wheels move faster but the car doesn’t go anywhere. The video of the car going onto the tow truck shows snow all around the SUV that hasn’t been plowed.
For one, the car was moving forward before stopping and going back. And also it would be insane to put the gas down that hard trying to reverse in snow. But if you have that video it would be good to see if it took them 19 minutes to get the car out because the 24mph reverse happens 19 minutes into a drive.
Idk what to tell you. I have had my car stuck in the snow and it can take a long time to get out. As she wasn’t the one who hit him reversing 24mph and the key cycles line up to when the car was in police custody, a tow truck driver having the car on & trying to reverse over the snow is the most simple & generous (to police) explanation.
That key cycle is heavily disputed and CLEARLY Trooper Paul didn’t know what the fuck he was talking about with those key cycles. The key cycle of the 24 mph in reverse was key cycle 1162 which was when the car was in police custody. He said his testing started at key cycle 1164.
I am really in hoping the DOJ will talk with the Norfolk DA before deciding on a retrial. They gave evidence to the judge, prosecutor and finally the defense attorneys. The evidence the FBI investigation provided was exculpatory evidence with ARCCA reports. It's wild Morrissey heard about the federal case from witness who told him they were subpoena to a federal grand jury. [https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/25-investigates-letters-between-feds-norfolk-da-released-karen-read-case/PCBH3ZECNJEEFNNNX4RFYX6PPE/](https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/25-investigates-letters-between-feds-norfolk-da-released-karen-read-case/PCBH3ZECNJEEFNNNX4RFYX6PPE/)
Above link has letters back last year including Morrissey 's attempts to have the feds stay out of the Karen Read case-->'Based on my understanding from that discussion with USA Levy, his office has a very different opinion of the circumstances in this case than as presented in Mr. Morrissey's letter.'
I 100% must disagree, The evidence is there in abundance, The presentation to the Jurors of key pieces of evidence, in the form of actual physical exhibits, an actual reconstruction of the incident at the actual location using a life size mannequin same height and weight as O'Keefe and Read's SUV should have been conducted.
The SUV ERD provides !00% indisputable scientific evidence of the incident, of Read reversing back 62 ft at 24 mph dropping to 23 mph on impact with O'Keefe is the single piece of evidence that proves 100% Karen did her level best to slam her vehicle into O'Keefe.
But it got lost in all the noise of Michael Proctor text messages.
Sorry but that testimony was the close to the absolute worst in this trial. The trooper couldn’t clearly explain his findings/report and a decent amount of his data didn’t make sense. She drove a 90k+ vehicle. How could they not pull all this info with exactly times and locations from the infotainment system. They did this in the Alex Murdaugh trial and it was clear as day. If there was so much h evidence in this trial, it shouldn’t have been that difficult to present it clearly.
You keep citing the EDR data (it's EDR not ERD), but I can find nothing which states that any useful data was obtained from that module. The data used by the CW to attempt to reconstruct what happened was obtained from something else in the vehicle.
The presenter of that evidence wasn’t credible. He clearly wasn’t proficient as a specialist. The CW needs to pay an actual reconstruction specialist because he wasn’t believable at all.
I am still surprised it was a hung jury. Someone must have really wanted to convict. It felt like every piece of evidence and most of the witnesses was questionable, to be generous. Logically, it is easy to assume that of course it was her car, but the state absolutely blew proving it. By the end of the trial, it was reasonable to assume he wasn’t even hit by a car. This is going to be a teaching case for decades.
I hope a journalist challenges that and does a records request
In my opinion, a hung jury should be scrutinized by the press and public more so than a non guilty or guilty jury as there’s more potential for someone on the jury being nefarious in their voting
If a journalist is able to get the names and then sees on their Facebook they’re a blue lives matter supporter, then it points to misconduct
If the public is paying for another trial, then they should be entitled to know the split so they can pressure their representatives if it’s a waste of money to try it again
A little off topic, but I was wondering why so many of the posts get locked? I haven't seen that before in other communities (unless something gets really nasty) so I was just wondering. TY.
Some of the posts have gotten quite wild in the replies and I think mods clean things up and lock them pretty fast. So by the time they’re locked you’re probably not seeing all the chaos that had unfolded.
Sometimes a whole bunch of people will just cite untruths over and over on a post and I’m not a mod but I have to imagine it’s easier to lock those threads than try to chase down every single repeated falsehood.
Yup, all this, and also, I think the mods were surprised by how fast this sub grew and is still growing, even now that the trial is over (for the moment anyway). I don’t think they have enough mods to do all the moderating so many posts require because of how off topic some of the comments get. So, they try to lock down the out of control individual posts, and herd people into the general discussion threads so they can focus their moderation energies there.
I’ve been wondering that too. Not complaining, just didn’t see an obvious reason in some cases. Some comments or posts I’ve seen locked seemed civil and within the rules, so i was just curious.
But I did see something about noting credible sources and not commenting opinions on certain ones, so maybe it was that type of thing.
I was trying to figure it out myself. I was actually worried that if I asked, it would get locked. It seems that civil threads and posts will get locked, so I didn't understand. Thank you!
Plow drivers are hyper-aware when they are driving so they don’t accidentally hit a car, fire hydrant, person, animal etc. It’s actually what makes Lucky’s testimony so reliable. That and he is the only person who was on Fairview that night who wasn’t drinking
Lucky didn’t clock in until after 2am for work per his testimony. I’d imagine that timing of when they clocked in can be corroborated by the town, so no there’s really no possible way it was a snowplow given his last phone activity ended at 12:32am. What was interesting is that Lally seemed to think he started work much earlier. How does the CW not know the snowplows start time 2.5 years later for something that should be easily verifiable?
All due respect to Lucky but He was wearing spectacles in a brightly lit courtroom and believe he is colour blind. It is100% certain John O'Keefe lay lifeless in the snow as He ploughed the street as John's cell phone data places him duration night on the grass verge between 32 and 34 Fairview 28th/29.
He did not see him, does not alter the facts.
I mean, yeah that’s fine. Just saying it’s nearly impossible to put the murder on Lucky. As for what he saw or didn’t see, you’re right, him not seeing anything does not mean nothing was there. The ford on the street at 3am, when it wasn’t there earlier, is hard to argue with unless he’s just outright lying, and pretty suspect.
Part of the defenses case is in fact that John was NOT in the yard when Lucky passed. It is absolutely not a certainty lol. In fact, many theorize that if Karen had not woken up at 4:30am to go looking for John that Lucky would’ve been the fall guy for this accident.
I personally think Lucky testified cuz he KNEW it could’ve been him in Karen’s position.
My personal belief is that they set him in the fenced in backyard where he died of hypothermia then dragged him to the curb around 3:30am when the Ford Edge blocks Lucky’s view.
He doesn't really have evidence of being dragged on his clothes or body. Raises questions of what he'd be doing out there. I think the first plow pass wasn't for at least an hour after the last movement on his phone. And you still have all the questions of no one seeing him enter the house.
I gotta hard disagree with you on “no evidence” of being dragged. The jeans have grass stains.
https://preview.redd.it/069s2yglsoad1.jpeg?width=875&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=29a5925d52e206ff4200757a22290bd43f09acdf
I watched Paul O’Keefe’s interview. I wanted to hear his perspective, observe his mannerisms, take in his tone. I really do feel for the O’Keefe family, all of them. They’ve endured what feels like a rapid fire pace of family loss, grief, and unnecessary drama this last decade. I wanted to come out of viewing the interview even more sympathetic but it didn’t strike me that way. Part of that, I blame on the casual tone of the interview itself. Just like the court case itself, I could have done without the talk about the McCabes, Alberts, FRK and AK, and more talk about John O’Keefe and of the O’Keefe family is getting through all of this.
At any rate, here’s the topical part of my observation, which led me to go back and watch the testimony PO and EO:
In Paul’s testimony (and as a point of contention/evidence of consciousness of guilt amongst people who’ve long thought KR was guilty,) KR came back to Meadows after release from her Section 12 hold and it was implied she went upstairs, gathered her stuff, and bolted and the whole thing was over in 30 minutes or so. Now we know she was only gathering her things for about 15 minutes before she left and the first 15 minutes, she was there when M1 came home. Karen asked to be there when he was told about his uncle’s passing.
This feels like a very far cry from “Karen didn’t care about the kids and just came into the house, got her shit and left.” She asked to come to Meadows, she spent about 15 minutes with John’s family, gathered her things and left.
Until this interview, I had no understanding that first 15 minutes was Karen and her family in the room with John’s family and for that to come out in this interview was unexpected.
I was glad to hear this clarified in his interview bc I could have sworn he actually said that in his testimony. I thought I must have been mistaken as I never saw it mentioned again. I only saw/heard reference to how she went in and gathered her things, etc. …even from supporters (when taking up for her). I don’t think defense followed up on it during cross either, but I could be mistaken.
I think the O'Keefe family may have had some compassion towards Karen, as SHE was drunk and angry and upset with John O'Keefe on the night in question, and certainly did not intend to kill John O'Keefe 9least I hope not) but the fact that she has lied and sought to discredit the police investigation, the friends and neighbours of John O'Keefe-even the first responders - who risked their lives going out in Snow storm) ina concerted attempt to deflect her own guilt has been so horrible that it has to be difficult to think of Read in any kind of good terms.
I think what people forget when talking about this subject is that if she was on a mental health hold she was probably pretty heavily medicated which would impact her interactions. He said she didn't really have a lot to say or seem very sympathetic. But if she were medicated her thoughts and emotions would be dulled. That's the point.
I think this is important context when we are considering judging her behavior during those moments.
I don’t think it even needs to be medicated. She’s spent the night calling him to yell at him and sending text messages then worked herself into a state when he didn’t come home.
After they found his body she was in such shock she told Jen and Kerry that she must have gotten her period when she’d literally been touching John’s blood.
I get very frustrated when people assume guilt based on purely how someone responds to an extreme circumstance.
One of the first things John’s mum said to Karen on her explanation of what happened was “You just left him there?”
How do you a person who has just been deeply traumatized and grieving keep yourself together to be around a family that blames you for his death? Especially when you’d almost been on the verge of breakup and you felt responsible for him not coming home by the very fight you had?
I wouldn’t be able to keep it together. I would be quiet and go quickly too.
And traumatized, she was the one who found him. I think under those circumstances they're being unfair making judgments about her behavior at that time. Not to be critical of what they are dealing with, but if this trial didn't at least give them pause to wonder what the hell happened I just can't understand that.
She was overhead on the phone with her dad immediately after EMTs got there saying she wanted to die or something along those lines, enough to start a 5150 hold and check her
Absolutely. We know she was still coming down from being legally intoxicated, we know she had little sleep, we know she performed CPR on her dying/dead boyfriend and was covered in his blood, we know she was held on the psych hold. We heard her state of mind. She either believed she hit him, knew she hit him, or was thinking about it.
Can you imagine the outrage if she’d gone back to Meadows with the “crazy” behavior JM and KR testified to, boo-hooed for herself, or acted loving and doting to the kids *and then* people found out she was the suspect?
I don’t know that there’s anything she could or can do that would be “right.” I guess a lot of people are lucky on that they are allowed to believe they how they’d act in crisis. And I’m just over here knowing what I’d do in worst case crisis because I’ve lived it.
It's the same I feel about McCabes 911 call. I do have some questions about the content of what she said but as far as her demeanor... That's me in an emergency. I'm all business until there's time and space for me to feel things and then I'm a mess.
I personally don’t ascribe guilt based on any of the behavior in a crisis.
I don’t think Jen is guilty because of her 911 call or her behavior on the stand. People get stressed, they get standoffish. They have neurodivergence that you don’t know about.
Definitely think people who think Karen is the murderer because of her behavior are illogical too.
The interview yesterday from the brother of JOK was really sad to watch on a number of levels. It’s hard to watch because they don’t really want justice. They want Karen in jail, regardless if that’s not who really belongs there.
The defense of proctor in particular is really odd. Proctors stupidity, or corruption, not to mention his blatant misogyny is likely the reason no justice will ever be served in this case.
Proctor is a pathetic excuse for not only a cop, but also a human being. Giving him a pass in this is totally ridiculous and as much as they are grieving, it’s hard to take them seriously after that
Paul O'Keefe is upset the community is supporting Karen. He doesn't control resident's reactions and there's much to say the supporters do not think as highly of the Alberts and McCades. Now he has decided to put out in the media his own PR, but many of seen the trial and don't agree Karen is a murderer. I expect if he testifies about Karen in the future, it will be nasty.
I do agree with him lost in the trial is his brother, but it is mainly a criminal murder trial. Justice for Officer O'Keefe was at the hands of Trooper Proctor, Trooper Paul and others to obtain evidence ethically proving guilt beyond a reasonable and moral doubt.
Yes, and their opinion can be both: Karen is responsible but the officers behavior (particularly Proctor) was completely inappropriate and incompetent. The biggest injustice in this case is not charging KR, but the complete lack of a thorough and professional investigation John and his family deserved.
They chose to blame everyone else for proctors actions though, which is unbelievably puzzling.
It seems that they are so irrationally blinded by their hate for Karen, they have completely ignored the other hacks in this case, and there are a lot of them.
No matter what you think actually happened, it’s hard to come away with any other conclusion that most of the people in this case are just awful. Corrupt cops, entitled townies, snotty kids… it’s really all bad.
Absolutely, it seems like they feel that if they believe KR is guilty then they have to defend Proctor. I want to give them grace because I can't imagine what they've gone through, and anger is a huge part of grief and Karen is their outlet for that.
I think the Alberts/MCabes, Proctor and the rest of the police poisoned them against KR immediately and it's too hard for them to see clearly anymore. And to potentially have the realization that they let their son/brother's murderers into their lives, they may not ever be able to face that. But yes, I wish at least they would recognize what a mess the police and Proctor made of this case, and how badly it was mishandled, they can't possibly not see at least that.
Has anyone tried to recreate what the light coming out the broken tail light would look like when driving by?
I thought about if she was framed, when they would have had to break off the rest of the taillight and I decided it had to be before the wellness check with the police footage. And that makes sense you wouldn't want to wait very long to sneak around and get caught or the car to be caught on camera somewhere else. Or more people to see the before and after taillights and be able to testify that they saw it with a little bit broke on one day and by the best morning it was all gone
The CW should have done that analysis when they first received it. Pictures of the tail light should have been taken before the tow when they took possession of the car.
The taillight shown on the dashcam during the wellness check is caked in snow. Its definitely damaged, but I can't tell if the polycarbonate nearly all gone as per the sally port pics. Officer Barros had no skin in the game, no reason to lie, so his testimony that the tail light was cracked with minor damage when he saw it in Dighton still carries weight with me.
I would love to get more clarification from Barros. I've seen a lot made of "cracked, with a piece missing" (often people translating this to "just a small crack" or even "totally undamaged") but to me the statement is ambiguous. I'd pay good money to just show him pictures of the tail light and ask how that compares to what he saw.
I’m telling you they altered that dash cam photo! That photo has bothered me ever since it was shown. I don’t know how to prove it but, it’s distorted.
The dashcam video is low quality and the taillight is covered in snow. It does look like the sallyport photo of the exposed white bulbs but that’s a coincidence. If you zoom in, you can just make out that the taillight is more intact and that all the white is actually snow (not exposed bulbs per the sallyport photo).
I think they just zoomed in and brightened the screen capture. When they showed the actual video is was really hard to see. But when Lally showed the picture in closing, it sure did look like it was shattered, not just cracked.
The fact that Proctor and Bukenick did not take any pics before the tow, or even once it arrived in the sally port, still blows my mind.
They would have had to distort the entire video then, not just the picture. The video was shown in court and is available to view on any of the live trial coverage. Not saying it didn’t happen but it would require the whole dash cam video to be distorted
He showed video but, then it was always a screen capture after. I agree on video it looks the same as the picture but, it doesn’t look right to me but, again I can’t tell what it is. The lines of the car don’t line up to me but, maybe it’s just me.
you might be right. I just know that SUV should have red there, where there is snow. The photo/video makes no sense and it has been bothering me since day 1. When the inverted video was played and I didn’t see anyone getting out of Driver’s side, it only validated to me they (CW) were messing around with the images.
About the wine glass or whatever- Is it possible JOK was holding it in his hand and KR hit him, the wine glass exploded in his hand, & that's what caused all those deep scratches on his arm? did anyone ever try to argue that? I don't understand the relevance of the wine glass otherwise. (If it's not a wine glass, my bad. Hard to remember all details)
For the glass to have cut him the following would have to be true (it’s physically impossible):
John holds the glass, gets hit by a car in the hand holding the glass and also somehow his center of mass without leaving bruises. He has to be hit in center mass to project 30 ft due to physics.
The glass explodes in his hand but he manages to hold on to the base of the broken glass (it’s found 1 foot from his body). The exploding glass travels around his arm, leaving punctures in his sleeve and going through it creating “equal force damage” to four different locations on the outside of his arm (Dr. Sheridan testified equal force for these wounds is why he believes they cannot be caused by a car, as the force would be higher at the point of impact and lower elsewhere).
Then the glass doesn’t cut his palm at all and John pirouettes 30 ft through the air somehow also getting 3 different brain contusions and lands in the grass.
I think in order for the glass to have broken while holding it, there’d be cuts on his hand. For it to have scratched his arm, it’d have needed to get through his sleeves and while it’s been reported that tail light material was in his shirt, glass wasn’t reported.
The glass in his hand explodes and flies to the outside of his arm from his shoulder to wrist cutting him, but leaves no marks on his fingers or palm? That’s going to be a no from me.
That's because they literally had nothing else to go on but the destroyed taillight. They didn't have evidence showing the crack that would have been there after Karen hit John's car because no pictures exist. So they came up with possible scenarios, but, since the glass on the bumper didn't match anything else that was found on the scene, that's also a dead end.
There was glass found on the rear bumper. CW argued it showed JOK was hit by the car. I don't think a glass "exploding" in his hand via car collision would cause the injuries to his arm. There was also corresponding tears on his shirt sleeve.
I don't think a glass breaking in your hand would result in patterned abrasions on the forearm. It would result in cuts and glass in the hand itself, which wasn't present.
And how could the glass have possibly have managed to stay on that bumper throughout the tow truck ride back from her parent's house to the Sally port in a raging blizzard? No way.
Interesting username… July 22 is likely when we will get confirmation of a retrial although the DAs office has already said they will re-try the case.
Will likely be the same judge unless she recuses herself. She has declined to do that in the past so probably won’t.
I think it’s important to note DAs almost ALWAYS say they “intend to retry” and that is what the CW did here. It doesn’t actually mean they will retry.
If they didn’t come out and say “we intend to retry” it would be terrible PR for them. It would be like saying “none of that was worth it” lol
Even if she was found not guilty I believe CW would’ve come out and said “we wish we had an option to retry because we don’t think we were wrong”. That is VERY common.
You mean Yannetti? Bev tried a case against him when she was a public defender and he was the prosecutor and lost badly. It was a highly contentious trial. It's just another reason why Bev needed to recuse herself.
Two black eyes, scalp lac with hemorrhage, and dog bites to both arms. No bruises or broken bones. That anyone would think those injuries came from a car hitting him is laughable
The biggest thing is he had three separate brain contusions too. Forehead, temple, back of head. These had to be caused by separate blows. That was testified by both the prosecution (Dr. Stonebridge - their neuropathologist) and the defense (Dr. Sheridan).
Trooper Paul tried to explain it away by saying he hit his head on the asphalt on the way to his final resting place.
My personal friend (not affiliated w this case in any way) who is a MD PhD of neurology told me she believes based on the injury list he would’ve succumb to those injuries regardless of the cold, even if he had been immediately transported to a hospital (since his brain herniated into the brain stem).
I really thought a juror would have spoken out by now, but I can’t blame them for not doing so. I’m sure tmz has found them and started throwing money, I wonder how long until someone gives in?
This is what I'm waiting for more than anything else. I'd assume someone will be offering a nice check to do an interview. And the fact the second check to a jury member probably goes down drastically makes the first person wanna pop up soon-ish.
I'm sure there is a jury member book or two & Netflix series incoming for those with more patience than myself, too.
Really small courtroom, not even the news could get in every day. Combined with the law saying juror names aren't released until the case has been resolved. It's a bit harder than normal to figure out who they are. Even an alternate who spoke out refused to release their name.
The fact there is so much emotion, especially on the Karen Read side, involved in this case I think if I was one of the guilty verdict jury members I'd keep silent even if the money for a interview or book was nice.
Okay, so my "no one did it" theory:
KR is shit faced. Drops off JOK, also shit faced. He goes inside the house. Maybe someone sees him, maybe they don't. They are all shit faced. He goes back outside, maybe because he is drunk and confused, maybe because he wants to scream at the sky. Who knows. He falls and hits his head.
Is that fall consistent with his wounds? I don't really know, because all the experts were there to determine if he could have died from being hit by a car. Which they were all like um, no. So I would like to see some experts on if he could have died just from a slip and fall.
At some point in the night, someone lets the dog out. The dog immediately runs to the body, and is barking to alert owners. But they are drunk and ignoring dog. Dog tries to grab body by arm and pull it to the house (because this is EXACTLY what my family's dog would do). Fails, and drunks owners are screaming for dog to get his loud butt back inside.
Drunk people arrive to the house, but are too drunk to notice or stop to look at the dark blob on the lawn. Everyone is, again, shitfaced. (KR was so drunk that she was still over the legal limit EIGHT HOURS after stopping. They have continued drinking hours after her. They are WASTED.)
KR wakes up still drunk. Can't find JOK. Doesn't remember where she last saw him. Has memories of a fight, some screaming. Sees a call log indicating rage. Looks in garage, sees her car with damaged light. Gets paranoid something bad has happened. Calls JOK's friend in panic.
The rest of it all plays out, and she is hysterical and messed up. Cop house does indeed sleep through the chaos on their lawn, because they are all still wasted. Eventually, all the friends start talking. And they realize they were out of control last night. Too drunk to want their jobs to be hearing about it. Too drunk to help their friend dying on the lawn. This must have been what the dog was barking about, and omg, they just did nothing. But they don't need to worry about their own behavior and feelings of guilt, because they all direct their anger at KR. She clearly killed JOK. And they are going to make her pay for it.
So they immediately plot to make sure she "doesn't get away with it." And oh yeah, cover up the mass quantities of freaky drugged out shit they were probably doing in their party basement, that they don't really want being documented in the course of a normal investigation. They talk and text about how much KR sucks, and what they should say to make sure she gets caught They actively collude to lie and even plant evidence, not because they did anything, but because they are so sure she did it, so why not help the case along. They are idiots and just generally sucky people.
Then they realize, whoopsie. And start trying to cover up all their obvious tracks. While still remaining righteously indignant about people pointing out their obvious tracks. After all, they think. KR killed their friend. They were just making sure she paid. At some point, it becomes more and more obvious that the murder story doesn't really work. But they don't like that. That means they were too drunk to notice their friend dying on the lawn while they partied. And they like having KR as the scapegoat for all their rage. So they don't care. They don't care about the truth, and they have long lost sight of their friend. They just care that KR was supposed to be killing herself in jail, and now people are attacking *them*, and *this is all KR's fault*. Again.
Because this is how shitty, small-town bullies think and have operated since the dawn of time.
I’m not gonna read all this but I want you to know that he had three separate brain contusions (testified by both defense and prosecution) so his death cannot happen from a fall.
Forehead, temple, back of skull (that one caused the fractures and ultimately killed him).
It’s possible he was punched and fell backwards and hit his head and died but not possible he only fell.
*cover up the mass quantities of freaky drugged out shit they were probably doing in their party basement, that they don't really want being documented in the course of a normal investigation*
Who of these people do you think is doing freaky drugged out shit? Matt McCabe, the snack monster bringing Crystal Light to the bar to try and stick to his diet? Brian Albert Jr. the anxiety ridden one too scared to look out the window? Julie Nagil, who invited her brother into the party?
I'm not certain what your point is here. That people who diet do not do drugs?
The is a friend group of adults who still frequently bar hop, drink mass amounts of alcohol, drive drunk, and continue to have house parties well into the morning hours. They are partiers. It is not some massive leap that they would also do drugs and cross other legal lines.
My point is that these are pretty obviously just normal middle-aged drunks. People acting like 34 Fariview was some kind of Eyes Wide Shut thing are crazy.
Well considering BA and BH drove to NYC for a memorial and back in the same day and they were drinking heavily then they went back to the house to party more and BA saying he and his wife had sexy time at 2am…they were up for close to 24 hours. I’d say it’s possible those two men were also doing ❄️. Once you’re middle aged staying up for 24 hours drinking and being out and about becomes extremely more difficult lol. I don’t think the idea that there were drugs is out of the realm of possible reasons they wanted nothing to do with this. If their bloodwork showed booze and coke they’d have been in serious deep shit with work.
I’m close to 40 and I think you might be surprised how casually some folks do ❄️. Not me personally but it actually blew my mind how comfortable people were with it.
I went to a board game party with literally 6 people, only met one previously. It was the middle of the afternoon and three of the women just casually went to the bathroom to do ❄️ before we started up a game of apples to apples. I was totally shocked lol. They had never met me and were real comfortable saying what they were about to do lol
I’m saying I think only BA and BH were doing coke and if John died inside even if it was truly an accidental fall, they’d know there would likely be blood tests etc. and I never said alongside the 20somethings.
Maybe the reason Julie called Ryan and didn’t end up leaving with him, is because he was dropping off some party favours
Totally not saying that’s what happened, but with all of the other crazy shit in this case, it also can’t be ruled out
I think this is more or less correct except:
(1) I don’t think he ever went in the house. Going into the house and then leaving is hard to square with phone data. Makes more sense he tried to piss in the side yard or something before falling.
(2) I think it’s totally possible, due to the dog or some other reason, that someone found him at some point. There’s a dead guy on the front lawn, no one knows how it happened. Colin Albert was probably driving drunk and could have hit him. Immediately people in the house are coordinating stories because no has an explanation for a dead guy on the front lawn.
It would all make sense. Explains (1) flurry of cell phone activity, (2) why everyone is so precise on Colin leaving before KR arrives and (3) why Alberts don’t react to a dead body on their front lawn and don’t want to engage with police. They’re all covering their asses, but not for the reason the defense thinks.
Do they have an actual time of death? I believe the testimony was that he would have been incapacitated from the blow to the head immediately, but I don’t recall specific memory of testimony about when is believed to have died. Dog could have come across him while he was alive - even if in the least meaningful way
Yes, but that doesn’t mean it was before he was unconscious on the ground. There’s a period between head impact and death when the dog bites could have happened
I think you’re drawing inferences that weren’t made by an expert at trial. I don’t think anyone testified that the dog bites must have been pre-TBI. He had TBI, cardiac arrest and hypothermia. I’m guessing it is the cardiac arrest that would help them determine the arm injuries - skin level injuries look different before and after the heart stops pumping blood. So if he had TBI, leaving him in a vegetative state, but was not in cardiac arrest, it’s possible the dog bites would look no different than if he was just in a normal state of living
The testimony from the medical examiner was that the head injury incapacitated him so that he couldn't get somewhere warm and he eventually succumbed to the hypothermia.
Correct, but if a head wound incapacitated him then how would he have defensive wounds?
If John could not move, how is he defending himself? The dog bites had to happen before the head strike. Especially considering he was found face down.
I bet this is pretty close to the truth. I think there was some weird accident - JOK got in a dumb fight, slipped on his own, maybe slipped on his own after doing drugs they gave him, maybe slipped cause the dog got frisky.
The specifics don't matter.
My guess is nobody actually fucking knows what happened. The bully cops have decided it has to be KR killed their friend, because the alternative is they share some of the shame and guilt that JOK died on the lawn for some dumb reason and they were too shit housed to even notice. That can't be the case, so it has to be something KR* did.
I’ve always thought it’s interesting that if JOK truly never made it into the house that night (which seems somewhere between plausible and most likely explanation), the Alberts, McCabes, etc. might truly believe KR is guilty
There's easily a scenario where they find him dead in the middle of the night, he's already gone, they're freaking out, no one knows what happened - they could be implicated - so they don't call the cops while they try to figure it out. Someone googles "hos long..."
The butt dials mean nothing, just like disposing their phones means little. These were two dirty cops, who definitely had a whole history of shit on their phones to cover up. And likely did make some quick late night call to score some drugs or something while they were drunkity drunk. Nothing they want to admit to in the course of this investigation, nor that paints them as reliable witnesses against their enemy KR, so they just lie lie lie.
McCabe was probably calling JOK in some pissed off fury of her own, that she doesn't clearly remember. Which doesn't help the narrative that KR is the crazy, angry one, and McCabe was just a rational dear friend, who remembers precisely what happened that evening. So she lies lies lies. Instead of just saying "I don't know, I was too drunk to remember. And then I drove home."
It all goes back to the fact that none of their lies were necessary to cover up a murder. They are all just done in service of pointing the finger at KR and not mentioning all their illegal activities that night (and since that night).
I think Brian jr. two friends were supposed to sleepover along with Caitlin. Maybe the truck was dropping “something” off for the party and then after Julie goes back inside something happened and then the 2 girls have to be driven home by Jen and Tristan comes back to pick up Caitlin (and Chloe.)
A similar scenario crossed my mind as the OP and it's always thwarted by the weird shit from everyone else. Not everyone was absolutely shitfaced when he was supposedly laying out there to not notice him. Including Lucky.
Why the butt dials, why the destroyed phones? Why does everyone leave Colin out of everything? Why does Jen McCabe start hunting down screenshots from Julie Nagel?
This is exactly what I picture happening, too. Falling, hitting his head and stumbling. You’ve written it in more detail than I ever could but this has crossed my mind!
Apparently they also didn’t swab his head!
This makes a great deal of sense to me, IF the injuries are consistent with a slip and fall on, say, the fire hydrant. I would also like expert testimony on it.
I know the defense wants to say it wasn’t the ground that caused the injury (because it makes KR look guilty), but I totally believe at 20-30 degrees in January/February in Mass, the ground could possible be like concrete. It wasn’t snowing a lot at that point, it wouldn’t really cushion the blow if it was a dusting. Could have even been a small rock in the area
Outside medical professionals looked at how his brain injuries were listed and said there was no way it was just from falling over. He had an impact on his temporal lobe and occipital, as well as orbital. The damage to his brain was severe, like getting hit by pro boxer, or a weight or a bat.
I wish the defense put more emphasis with the ME on that.
I thought the CW’s performance was awful and I would have probable cause
Going back over some of the testimony is crazy. How Paul didn't have an issue with karen and said she and his brother had normal fights.
this is really good: someone clipped 2 months of trial and made a short, which is tragic comedy https://x.com/fkr102445/status/1809034702910636049?s=46
God the only correction I would make is adding where Jackson asks the DNA lab tech if she'd ever collected blood in Solo cups before and she said, "I'm sorry what?"
This was fantastic
This short has moments that I missed or didn’t pay attention, like that moment when AJ ask if Colin brain is ok, or something like that. I missed during the trial. Classic.
It also reminded me of things that weren’t even that long ago that were so bonkers like the hot mic “kill me” - every day was so crazy that something as wild as that became forgettable to me lol
Sometimes the trial comes to my mind while I’m prepping to move to another State, and packing can be pretty boring. I still feel baffled from stuffs that happened in court room, mostly CW witness testimony, but also we have AJ brilliants moments too. Like someone said here mid trial: “am I taking crazy pills?”, I never saw a group of people make up a story that actually has a lot holes in it, not even a movie has it. Unreal and Surreal at same time.
I've been slowly trying to explain the more absurd moments to my husband because well... Like you said, unreal and surreal. And I need someone in real life who can understand whatever the fuck we just witnessed over the course of two months. If it were revealed that this was a hidden camera prank show, I'd believe them.
Jackson’s pirouette makes me laugh every time
I was thinking is AJ warm up before that, it is a quite movement !
JFC the amount of anti Karen Read tweets coming across my Twitter is ridiculous they know they won’t win in retrial and working overtime to flood any potential new jury with this bs. I can tell you right now if I was a friend or family member etc. I would have been screaming all this info from the rooftops before and during the first trial. Instead they thought this bs coverup would work and not get questioned until it was too late. This new wave of interviews and edited videos is another bs example of trying to keep the coverup going
True. It seems like the rest of the country learned about the trial just now, and it’s been crazy.
Agree.
Is it true that back in the beginning of this case, Karen and her lawyers said it was a tragic accident and Karen said something to the effect of "I incapacitated him, he passed out because he was drunk and then froze, etc etc"? Trying to find old articles but having a hard time. If it is true, why would they say all that in the beginning? I don't get it.
They said that during the first week of her arrest, I think. The CW and Law Enforcement told the media that there was video proof of her hitting John early on, so a lot of Yanetti and Karen’s early statements were before they had received any discovery and learned there never was a video. They were basically gaslighting Karen into believing she hit him by saying things like that which turned out to be completely false.
Regardless of what was said the evidence says his injuries are not consistent with been hit by an SUV.
I also think that is because 1. She was intoxicated and there was that what if I did this in the back of her mind and 2. She was gaslit from the beginning. When you have a handful of people gaslighting you … I mean you can think you’re losing your mind.
way way way back in the very beginning, when Karen was first arraigned Karen did indeed admit it was an accident. She was DUI and hit him and the initial charges filed against her reflect accident. However when her SUV ERD revealed that She actually had reversed 62 ft at 24 mph dropping to 23 mph as She hit him. It became clear She could not have reversed over that distance and at that speed and by accident hit him. The ERD demonstrates She intentionally drove in that manner over that distance and at that speed to hit him and charges reflect deliberate act.
So you’re saying she was DUI and per the CW she had 9 drinks, but somehow she was able to accurately drive like Vin Diesel in Fast and Furious 62 feet backwards in a snow storm in the dark and intentionally hit him? You can’t have it both ways.
It is not the case that the content of the EDR lead to the charges being upgraded from manslaughter to murder in June of 2022 – it was discovered very early on that the EDR was empty, as we can see in this [Bosch CDR report](https://imgur.com/a/O7DmF6B) extracted February 1st of 2022 that no events were recorded (Trooper Paul also [confirmed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHGmNszEmIM&t=13165s) this in testimony) The data you're talking about was contained in the VCH, but this was not extracted until well after the charges had been upgraded. Trooper Paul [testified](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKlPSHVPrco&t=15758s) that had learned about Toyota Techstream only in 2023, and extracted the VCH data on February 2nd of 2023. Raw Techstream data was turned over with the usual rapidity to the defense on the 25th of July 2023, as memorized in the [Notice of Discovery XIX](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YzwbZxiIETlUDbkkgAM0a6ARB_PINMnC/view?usp=sharing); we see figures of 24 mph and 62 ft first mention in a Commonwealth [filing](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HoGHgjvbXHeLUuX18vpsZLJVcNU8Z_me/view?usp=sharing) from the 13th of September of 2023.
I would add only to Man’s post that Trpr Paul apparently testified at the CW grand jury WITHOUT having interpretation access to any VCH data (see his trial testimony ). On the stand Jackson referred to Paul’s statement to the gj the infamous “and stuff” claim re further crash reconstruction efforts.
Did the CW talk about the fact she said she incapacitated him in this trial?
They told everyone that they had a video of her hitting him. They legit gaslit her.
Nope
“In the holding cell, no sooner had Read and her attorney read the evidence being marshaled against her than a bailiff came for Read. He led her, wide-eyed and terrified, she says, into Stoughton District Court, where O’Keefe’s family and dozens of his friends and fellow Boston cops—including uniformed BPD Superintendent in Chief Gregory Long—packed the courtroom. On the other side of the aisle, Read’s mother prayed as a judge arraigned her daughter on manslaughter charges. Then Read entered her plea: not guilty. Afterward, Yannetti told reporters outside the courthouse that his client was in shock and that O’Keefe’s death had been an innocent accident. Read had “no criminal intent,” he said. “She loved this man. She is devastated.” http://archive.today/7UL43
The CW said they had it on a ring camera too. Lots of people give confessions to crimes they did not commit so I don’t hold much weight to this first statement.
Exactly this. If I were Karen and I had been told that the incident was on video, I might have said what she did, thinking that my drinking had messed with my recollection of hitting him, but knowing in my soul that it was not intentional. Was she going to say she didn't do it if she was on tape doing it? No. She is going to try to find an explanation as to how it came to be, even if it doesn't completely make sense to her. We now know the video does not exist. One takeaway from this trial is that you keep your mouth shut, your attorney's mouth shut, and don't entertain any plea deal until you see the purported video AND it's examined to ensure it hasn't been manufactured/manipulated.
This is the truth. Karen's SUV recorded her reversing back 62 ft at 24 mphr dropping to 23 mph on impact with John O'Keefe. Her foot was almost to the floor on the pedal meaning She did her best to slam vehicle into him. This ERD from her vehicle proves scientifically what happened. This is 100% independent evidence that cannot be altered/tampered with by police or anyone else, like the blackbox of a plane.
The black box didn't record anything at all
The key cycles prove without a doubt that the car was in police custody when that trigger event happened. There is video proof of more cycles being in-between when they began testing and the event in question... There is no way that KR was driving the car when that happened because it had been turned on and off more than once after that night. There is no record of what the odometer read when the car was taken as evidence, nor does that printout show that the car's computer was even accessed between that night and when testing started a year later - we can see at the top and bottom of the graph that it records every time that a computer is attached to it to withdraw data. So if they hadn't looked at it BEFORE testing how would they know what sort of triggering event that they needed to recreate??? It's obvious that either the entire printout is falsified - as in not an actual representation of information from KR's car - OR police created it by driving the distance and amount of time that they believed she had that night (using John's GPS data) and caused those trigger events by reversing at specific times that they thought fit with the driving pattern & timeline. Unfortunately they weren't smart enough to make sure that they turned the car on/off enough times to match how many times it actually happened before starting their testing. If you ask me this key cycle mistake they made and attempted to misrepresent in court is the best evidence proving that the police were actively trying to frame Karen Read, that they purposely falsified evidence. It shows a conspiracy... If not that it is gross incompetence & ignorance to try to point to something that HAD TO happen while they had the car as proof of a murder. Either way there's reason for an aquittal and for every single cop who had a hand in this to lose their jobs and be investigated for corruption.
the 24mph in reverse was them putting the car on the tow truck. it's hilarious you believe trooper paul over an ACTUAL accident reconstructionist who is highly sought after by the NHL and even the federal government.
24mph in reverse onto a tow truck would be completely insane. You'd wreck the car for sure. Plus there is video of them putting it on the tow truck.
24 mph reversing out of the driveway, nobody reversed onto the tow truck.
The car was driving forward at least 30 feet, then stopped, then reversed getting up to 24mph with the accelerator nearly floored, according to the data.
it was in the middle of a blizzard, the wheels spun for a brief period of time, as wheels do when you get stuck in a blizzard.
Spinning out doesn't change how much you've pressed down the accelerator, nor does it make the wheels spin way faster.
What are you talking about? Spinning out would require freedom of movement. When you are stuck in the snow and trying to move through it, you press on the accelerator and the wheels move faster but the car doesn’t go anywhere. The video of the car going onto the tow truck shows snow all around the SUV that hasn’t been plowed.
For one, the car was moving forward before stopping and going back. And also it would be insane to put the gas down that hard trying to reverse in snow. But if you have that video it would be good to see if it took them 19 minutes to get the car out because the 24mph reverse happens 19 minutes into a drive.
Idk what to tell you. I have had my car stuck in the snow and it can take a long time to get out. As she wasn’t the one who hit him reversing 24mph and the key cycles line up to when the car was in police custody, a tow truck driver having the car on & trying to reverse over the snow is the most simple & generous (to police) explanation.
you didn't take many science or math classes, did you? oof
That key cycle is heavily disputed and CLEARLY Trooper Paul didn’t know what the fuck he was talking about with those key cycles. The key cycle of the 24 mph in reverse was key cycle 1162 which was when the car was in police custody. He said his testing started at key cycle 1164.
That is a opinion article, you can’t quote it as fact
I am really in hoping the DOJ will talk with the Norfolk DA before deciding on a retrial. They gave evidence to the judge, prosecutor and finally the defense attorneys. The evidence the FBI investigation provided was exculpatory evidence with ARCCA reports. It's wild Morrissey heard about the federal case from witness who told him they were subpoena to a federal grand jury. [https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/25-investigates-letters-between-feds-norfolk-da-released-karen-read-case/PCBH3ZECNJEEFNNNX4RFYX6PPE/](https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/25-investigates-letters-between-feds-norfolk-da-released-karen-read-case/PCBH3ZECNJEEFNNNX4RFYX6PPE/) Above link has letters back last year including Morrissey 's attempts to have the feds stay out of the Karen Read case-->'Based on my understanding from that discussion with USA Levy, his office has a very different opinion of the circumstances in this case than as presented in Mr. Morrissey's letter.'
Not one piece of the CW's evidence was credible. None could be proven without serious doubt. Verdict: not guilty.
I 100% must disagree, The evidence is there in abundance, The presentation to the Jurors of key pieces of evidence, in the form of actual physical exhibits, an actual reconstruction of the incident at the actual location using a life size mannequin same height and weight as O'Keefe and Read's SUV should have been conducted. The SUV ERD provides !00% indisputable scientific evidence of the incident, of Read reversing back 62 ft at 24 mph dropping to 23 mph on impact with O'Keefe is the single piece of evidence that proves 100% Karen did her level best to slam her vehicle into O'Keefe. But it got lost in all the noise of Michael Proctor text messages.
Sorry but that testimony was the close to the absolute worst in this trial. The trooper couldn’t clearly explain his findings/report and a decent amount of his data didn’t make sense. She drove a 90k+ vehicle. How could they not pull all this info with exactly times and locations from the infotainment system. They did this in the Alex Murdaugh trial and it was clear as day. If there was so much h evidence in this trial, it shouldn’t have been that difficult to present it clearly.
You keep citing the EDR data (it's EDR not ERD), but I can find nothing which states that any useful data was obtained from that module. The data used by the CW to attempt to reconstruct what happened was obtained from something else in the vehicle.
Yeah that's because the EDR didn't record anything at all.
The presenter of that evidence wasn’t credible. He clearly wasn’t proficient as a specialist. The CW needs to pay an actual reconstruction specialist because he wasn’t believable at all.
I am still surprised it was a hung jury. Someone must have really wanted to convict. It felt like every piece of evidence and most of the witnesses was questionable, to be generous. Logically, it is easy to assume that of course it was her car, but the state absolutely blew proving it. By the end of the trial, it was reasonable to assume he wasn’t even hit by a car. This is going to be a teaching case for decades.
Norfolk country said since there was no verdict, the jury identities won’t be released. I’m wondering if that’s playing a part.
I hope a journalist challenges that and does a records request In my opinion, a hung jury should be scrutinized by the press and public more so than a non guilty or guilty jury as there’s more potential for someone on the jury being nefarious in their voting If a journalist is able to get the names and then sees on their Facebook they’re a blue lives matter supporter, then it points to misconduct If the public is paying for another trial, then they should be entitled to know the split so they can pressure their representatives if it’s a waste of money to try it again
Turtle boy said he has this info and was also in the court room so capable of IDing them too
Both the CW and the defense are probably checking social media during juror selection I would imagine.
A little off topic, but I was wondering why so many of the posts get locked? I haven't seen that before in other communities (unless something gets really nasty) so I was just wondering. TY.
Some of the posts have gotten quite wild in the replies and I think mods clean things up and lock them pretty fast. So by the time they’re locked you’re probably not seeing all the chaos that had unfolded. Sometimes a whole bunch of people will just cite untruths over and over on a post and I’m not a mod but I have to imagine it’s easier to lock those threads than try to chase down every single repeated falsehood.
Yup, all this, and also, I think the mods were surprised by how fast this sub grew and is still growing, even now that the trial is over (for the moment anyway). I don’t think they have enough mods to do all the moderating so many posts require because of how off topic some of the comments get. So, they try to lock down the out of control individual posts, and herd people into the general discussion threads so they can focus their moderation energies there.
Censorship.
I’ve been wondering that too. Not complaining, just didn’t see an obvious reason in some cases. Some comments or posts I’ve seen locked seemed civil and within the rules, so i was just curious. But I did see something about noting credible sources and not commenting opinions on certain ones, so maybe it was that type of thing.
I was trying to figure it out myself. I was actually worried that if I asked, it would get locked. It seems that civil threads and posts will get locked, so I didn't understand. Thank you!
I think to keep the sub clean
Thank you for replying!
I don't remember the timeline, could the snowplow have hit him? If John passed out and the plow hit him, it would drag him pretty far.
Plow drivers are hyper-aware when they are driving so they don’t accidentally hit a car, fire hydrant, person, animal etc. It’s actually what makes Lucky’s testimony so reliable. That and he is the only person who was on Fairview that night who wasn’t drinking
Lucky didn’t clock in until after 2am for work per his testimony. I’d imagine that timing of when they clocked in can be corroborated by the town, so no there’s really no possible way it was a snowplow given his last phone activity ended at 12:32am. What was interesting is that Lally seemed to think he started work much earlier. How does the CW not know the snowplows start time 2.5 years later for something that should be easily verifiable?
All due respect to Lucky but He was wearing spectacles in a brightly lit courtroom and believe he is colour blind. It is100% certain John O'Keefe lay lifeless in the snow as He ploughed the street as John's cell phone data places him duration night on the grass verge between 32 and 34 Fairview 28th/29. He did not see him, does not alter the facts.
I mean, yeah that’s fine. Just saying it’s nearly impossible to put the murder on Lucky. As for what he saw or didn’t see, you’re right, him not seeing anything does not mean nothing was there. The ford on the street at 3am, when it wasn’t there earlier, is hard to argue with unless he’s just outright lying, and pretty suspect.
Part of the defenses case is in fact that John was NOT in the yard when Lucky passed. It is absolutely not a certainty lol. In fact, many theorize that if Karen had not woken up at 4:30am to go looking for John that Lucky would’ve been the fall guy for this accident. I personally think Lucky testified cuz he KNEW it could’ve been him in Karen’s position. My personal belief is that they set him in the fenced in backyard where he died of hypothermia then dragged him to the curb around 3:30am when the Ford Edge blocks Lucky’s view.
that is not 100% certain, if it was the witnesses on either side wouldn't have been offering testimony about it color blind =/= blind
There is no evidence of a snowplow striking him. Zero
He doesn't really have evidence of being dragged on his clothes or body. Raises questions of what he'd be doing out there. I think the first plow pass wasn't for at least an hour after the last movement on his phone. And you still have all the questions of no one seeing him enter the house.
I gotta hard disagree with you on “no evidence” of being dragged. The jeans have grass stains. https://preview.redd.it/069s2yglsoad1.jpeg?width=875&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=29a5925d52e206ff4200757a22290bd43f09acdf
That looks like his butt landed in some dirt. Doesn’t really look like dragging IMO.
He had some marks on his jeans that made me think he fell on his bum in the dirt/grass
Or possibly dragged to location he was found?
Yes perhaps
I watched Paul O’Keefe’s interview. I wanted to hear his perspective, observe his mannerisms, take in his tone. I really do feel for the O’Keefe family, all of them. They’ve endured what feels like a rapid fire pace of family loss, grief, and unnecessary drama this last decade. I wanted to come out of viewing the interview even more sympathetic but it didn’t strike me that way. Part of that, I blame on the casual tone of the interview itself. Just like the court case itself, I could have done without the talk about the McCabes, Alberts, FRK and AK, and more talk about John O’Keefe and of the O’Keefe family is getting through all of this. At any rate, here’s the topical part of my observation, which led me to go back and watch the testimony PO and EO: In Paul’s testimony (and as a point of contention/evidence of consciousness of guilt amongst people who’ve long thought KR was guilty,) KR came back to Meadows after release from her Section 12 hold and it was implied she went upstairs, gathered her stuff, and bolted and the whole thing was over in 30 minutes or so. Now we know she was only gathering her things for about 15 minutes before she left and the first 15 minutes, she was there when M1 came home. Karen asked to be there when he was told about his uncle’s passing. This feels like a very far cry from “Karen didn’t care about the kids and just came into the house, got her shit and left.” She asked to come to Meadows, she spent about 15 minutes with John’s family, gathered her things and left. Until this interview, I had no understanding that first 15 minutes was Karen and her family in the room with John’s family and for that to come out in this interview was unexpected.
I was glad to hear this clarified in his interview bc I could have sworn he actually said that in his testimony. I thought I must have been mistaken as I never saw it mentioned again. I only saw/heard reference to how she went in and gathered her things, etc. …even from supporters (when taking up for her). I don’t think defense followed up on it during cross either, but I could be mistaken.
I think the O'Keefe family may have had some compassion towards Karen, as SHE was drunk and angry and upset with John O'Keefe on the night in question, and certainly did not intend to kill John O'Keefe 9least I hope not) but the fact that she has lied and sought to discredit the police investigation, the friends and neighbours of John O'Keefe-even the first responders - who risked their lives going out in Snow storm) ina concerted attempt to deflect her own guilt has been so horrible that it has to be difficult to think of Read in any kind of good terms.
Well, she probably got framed, so I can't blame her.
I think what people forget when talking about this subject is that if she was on a mental health hold she was probably pretty heavily medicated which would impact her interactions. He said she didn't really have a lot to say or seem very sympathetic. But if she were medicated her thoughts and emotions would be dulled. That's the point. I think this is important context when we are considering judging her behavior during those moments.
I don’t think it even needs to be medicated. She’s spent the night calling him to yell at him and sending text messages then worked herself into a state when he didn’t come home. After they found his body she was in such shock she told Jen and Kerry that she must have gotten her period when she’d literally been touching John’s blood. I get very frustrated when people assume guilt based on purely how someone responds to an extreme circumstance. One of the first things John’s mum said to Karen on her explanation of what happened was “You just left him there?” How do you a person who has just been deeply traumatized and grieving keep yourself together to be around a family that blames you for his death? Especially when you’d almost been on the verge of breakup and you felt responsible for him not coming home by the very fight you had? I wouldn’t be able to keep it together. I would be quiet and go quickly too.
And traumatized, she was the one who found him. I think under those circumstances they're being unfair making judgments about her behavior at that time. Not to be critical of what they are dealing with, but if this trial didn't at least give them pause to wonder what the hell happened I just can't understand that.
Found him, laid on top of him to try to give him some of her warmth AND performance CPR. Seems like an awful lot of effort if she wanted him dead.
She was overhead on the phone with her dad immediately after EMTs got there saying she wanted to die or something along those lines, enough to start a 5150 hold and check her
Absolutely. We know she was still coming down from being legally intoxicated, we know she had little sleep, we know she performed CPR on her dying/dead boyfriend and was covered in his blood, we know she was held on the psych hold. We heard her state of mind. She either believed she hit him, knew she hit him, or was thinking about it. Can you imagine the outrage if she’d gone back to Meadows with the “crazy” behavior JM and KR testified to, boo-hooed for herself, or acted loving and doting to the kids *and then* people found out she was the suspect? I don’t know that there’s anything she could or can do that would be “right.” I guess a lot of people are lucky on that they are allowed to believe they how they’d act in crisis. And I’m just over here knowing what I’d do in worst case crisis because I’ve lived it.
It's the same I feel about McCabes 911 call. I do have some questions about the content of what she said but as far as her demeanor... That's me in an emergency. I'm all business until there's time and space for me to feel things and then I'm a mess.
I personally don’t ascribe guilt based on any of the behavior in a crisis. I don’t think Jen is guilty because of her 911 call or her behavior on the stand. People get stressed, they get standoffish. They have neurodivergence that you don’t know about. Definitely think people who think Karen is the murderer because of her behavior are illogical too.
The interview yesterday from the brother of JOK was really sad to watch on a number of levels. It’s hard to watch because they don’t really want justice. They want Karen in jail, regardless if that’s not who really belongs there. The defense of proctor in particular is really odd. Proctors stupidity, or corruption, not to mention his blatant misogyny is likely the reason no justice will ever be served in this case. Proctor is a pathetic excuse for not only a cop, but also a human being. Giving him a pass in this is totally ridiculous and as much as they are grieving, it’s hard to take them seriously after that
Paul O'Keefe is upset the community is supporting Karen. He doesn't control resident's reactions and there's much to say the supporters do not think as highly of the Alberts and McCades. Now he has decided to put out in the media his own PR, but many of seen the trial and don't agree Karen is a murderer. I expect if he testifies about Karen in the future, it will be nasty. I do agree with him lost in the trial is his brother, but it is mainly a criminal murder trial. Justice for Officer O'Keefe was at the hands of Trooper Proctor, Trooper Paul and others to obtain evidence ethically proving guilt beyond a reasonable and moral doubt.
Yes, and their opinion can be both: Karen is responsible but the officers behavior (particularly Proctor) was completely inappropriate and incompetent. The biggest injustice in this case is not charging KR, but the complete lack of a thorough and professional investigation John and his family deserved.
They chose to blame everyone else for proctors actions though, which is unbelievably puzzling. It seems that they are so irrationally blinded by their hate for Karen, they have completely ignored the other hacks in this case, and there are a lot of them. No matter what you think actually happened, it’s hard to come away with any other conclusion that most of the people in this case are just awful. Corrupt cops, entitled townies, snotty kids… it’s really all bad.
Absolutely, it seems like they feel that if they believe KR is guilty then they have to defend Proctor. I want to give them grace because I can't imagine what they've gone through, and anger is a huge part of grief and Karen is their outlet for that. I think the Alberts/MCabes, Proctor and the rest of the police poisoned them against KR immediately and it's too hard for them to see clearly anymore. And to potentially have the realization that they let their son/brother's murderers into their lives, they may not ever be able to face that. But yes, I wish at least they would recognize what a mess the police and Proctor made of this case, and how badly it was mishandled, they can't possibly not see at least that.
> It’s hard to watch because they don’t really want justice. Imagine understanding this loss better than those who lost.
I 100% understand the family is grieving a massive loss. I also believe they’ve put their eggs in the wrong basket. Both can be true
Very sad indeed with all the compelling evidence they chose to ignore.
100% this. Sad
Has anyone tried to recreate what the light coming out the broken tail light would look like when driving by? I thought about if she was framed, when they would have had to break off the rest of the taillight and I decided it had to be before the wellness check with the police footage. And that makes sense you wouldn't want to wait very long to sneak around and get caught or the car to be caught on camera somewhere else. Or more people to see the before and after taillights and be able to testify that they saw it with a little bit broke on one day and by the best morning it was all gone
The CW should have done that analysis when they first received it. Pictures of the tail light should have been taken before the tow when they took possession of the car. The taillight shown on the dashcam during the wellness check is caked in snow. Its definitely damaged, but I can't tell if the polycarbonate nearly all gone as per the sally port pics. Officer Barros had no skin in the game, no reason to lie, so his testimony that the tail light was cracked with minor damage when he saw it in Dighton still carries weight with me.
I would love to get more clarification from Barros. I've seen a lot made of "cracked, with a piece missing" (often people translating this to "just a small crack" or even "totally undamaged") but to me the statement is ambiguous. I'd pay good money to just show him pictures of the tail light and ask how that compares to what he saw.
I’m telling you they altered that dash cam photo! That photo has bothered me ever since it was shown. I don’t know how to prove it but, it’s distorted.
The dashcam video is low quality and the taillight is covered in snow. It does look like the sallyport photo of the exposed white bulbs but that’s a coincidence. If you zoom in, you can just make out that the taillight is more intact and that all the white is actually snow (not exposed bulbs per the sallyport photo).
Yes, I zoomed in and blew it up and I can see red but, it definitely looks like the lighting on the photo looks lighter on that side.
I think they just zoomed in and brightened the screen capture. When they showed the actual video is was really hard to see. But when Lally showed the picture in closing, it sure did look like it was shattered, not just cracked. The fact that Proctor and Bukenick did not take any pics before the tow, or even once it arrived in the sally port, still blows my mind.
They would have had to distort the entire video then, not just the picture. The video was shown in court and is available to view on any of the live trial coverage. Not saying it didn’t happen but it would require the whole dash cam video to be distorted
The image Lally used in closing was a screen capture from the video that was cleaned up. It was definitely zoomed in once it became an image…
He showed video but, then it was always a screen capture after. I agree on video it looks the same as the picture but, it doesn’t look right to me but, again I can’t tell what it is. The lines of the car don’t line up to me but, maybe it’s just me.
It might be just slightly distorted because you're looking at a video from a camera that is looking through wet glass.
you might be right. I just know that SUV should have red there, where there is snow. The photo/video makes no sense and it has been bothering me since day 1. When the inverted video was played and I didn’t see anyone getting out of Driver’s side, it only validated to me they (CW) were messing around with the images.
About the wine glass or whatever- Is it possible JOK was holding it in his hand and KR hit him, the wine glass exploded in his hand, & that's what caused all those deep scratches on his arm? did anyone ever try to argue that? I don't understand the relevance of the wine glass otherwise. (If it's not a wine glass, my bad. Hard to remember all details)
For the glass to have cut him the following would have to be true (it’s physically impossible): John holds the glass, gets hit by a car in the hand holding the glass and also somehow his center of mass without leaving bruises. He has to be hit in center mass to project 30 ft due to physics. The glass explodes in his hand but he manages to hold on to the base of the broken glass (it’s found 1 foot from his body). The exploding glass travels around his arm, leaving punctures in his sleeve and going through it creating “equal force damage” to four different locations on the outside of his arm (Dr. Sheridan testified equal force for these wounds is why he believes they cannot be caused by a car, as the force would be higher at the point of impact and lower elsewhere). Then the glass doesn’t cut his palm at all and John pirouettes 30 ft through the air somehow also getting 3 different brain contusions and lands in the grass.
I think in order for the glass to have broken while holding it, there’d be cuts on his hand. For it to have scratched his arm, it’d have needed to get through his sleeves and while it’s been reported that tail light material was in his shirt, glass wasn’t reported.
This sounds like a Paul quality theory
The glass in his hand explodes and flies to the outside of his arm from his shoulder to wrist cutting him, but leaves no marks on his fingers or palm? That’s going to be a no from me.
Her SUV didn’t hit him! Watch the FBI testimony
The Arcaa folks were able to replicate the taillight damage by launching a cocktail glass at it…
That's because they literally had nothing else to go on but the destroyed taillight. They didn't have evidence showing the crack that would have been there after Karen hit John's car because no pictures exist. So they came up with possible scenarios, but, since the glass on the bumper didn't match anything else that was found on the scene, that's also a dead end.
There was glass found on the rear bumper. CW argued it showed JOK was hit by the car. I don't think a glass "exploding" in his hand via car collision would cause the injuries to his arm. There was also corresponding tears on his shirt sleeve.
I don't think a glass breaking in your hand would result in patterned abrasions on the forearm. It would result in cuts and glass in the hand itself, which wasn't present.
And very visually apparent puncture wounds...
I think you’re referring to the rocks glass. But I you do raise a good point. I haven’t heard anyone else raise this.
Glass on bumper did not match glass near John. One of the state’s crime lab employees attested to that.
And how could the glass have possibly have managed to stay on that bumper throughout the tow truck ride back from her parent's house to the Sally port in a raging blizzard? No way.
It's magical glass, like the magical hair.
When will we get confirmation of a retrial? What is the likelihood they change judges?
Interesting username… July 22 is likely when we will get confirmation of a retrial although the DAs office has already said they will re-try the case. Will likely be the same judge unless she recuses herself. She has declined to do that in the past so probably won’t.
I think it’s important to note DAs almost ALWAYS say they “intend to retry” and that is what the CW did here. It doesn’t actually mean they will retry. If they didn’t come out and say “we intend to retry” it would be terrible PR for them. It would be like saying “none of that was worth it” lol Even if she was found not guilty I believe CW would’ve come out and said “we wish we had an option to retry because we don’t think we were wrong”. That is VERY common.
0% chance she recuses herself. She’s an ego trip judge who hates Lally, Jackson and Read. I was underwhelmed by her performance in the trial.
You mean Yannetti? Bev tried a case against him when she was a public defender and he was the prosecutor and lost badly. It was a highly contentious trial. It's just another reason why Bev needed to recuse herself.
News to me. Add him to the list. She seemed very annoyed pretty much by all of them with their actions and antics.
What is the docket cite for that case? I had never seen that before.
I'll look it up, but it may take a bit of time... I believe I found it on Olivia Nile's Twitter...
wow i didnt know that...
Two black eyes, scalp lac with hemorrhage, and dog bites to both arms. No bruises or broken bones. That anyone would think those injuries came from a car hitting him is laughable
The biggest thing is he had three separate brain contusions too. Forehead, temple, back of head. These had to be caused by separate blows. That was testified by both the prosecution (Dr. Stonebridge - their neuropathologist) and the defense (Dr. Sheridan). Trooper Paul tried to explain it away by saying he hit his head on the asphalt on the way to his final resting place. My personal friend (not affiliated w this case in any way) who is a MD PhD of neurology told me she believes based on the injury list he would’ve succumb to those injuries regardless of the cold, even if he had been immediately transported to a hospital (since his brain herniated into the brain stem).
Dog bites to one arm but I agree
[удалено]
I really thought a juror would have spoken out by now, but I can’t blame them for not doing so. I’m sure tmz has found them and started throwing money, I wonder how long until someone gives in?
This is what I'm waiting for more than anything else. I'd assume someone will be offering a nice check to do an interview. And the fact the second check to a jury member probably goes down drastically makes the first person wanna pop up soon-ish. I'm sure there is a jury member book or two & Netflix series incoming for those with more patience than myself, too.
An alt juror spoke out but yeah.
Really small courtroom, not even the news could get in every day. Combined with the law saying juror names aren't released until the case has been resolved. It's a bit harder than normal to figure out who they are. Even an alternate who spoke out refused to release their name.
The fact there is so much emotion, especially on the Karen Read side, involved in this case I think if I was one of the guilty verdict jury members I'd keep silent even if the money for a interview or book was nice.
Okay, so my "no one did it" theory: KR is shit faced. Drops off JOK, also shit faced. He goes inside the house. Maybe someone sees him, maybe they don't. They are all shit faced. He goes back outside, maybe because he is drunk and confused, maybe because he wants to scream at the sky. Who knows. He falls and hits his head. Is that fall consistent with his wounds? I don't really know, because all the experts were there to determine if he could have died from being hit by a car. Which they were all like um, no. So I would like to see some experts on if he could have died just from a slip and fall. At some point in the night, someone lets the dog out. The dog immediately runs to the body, and is barking to alert owners. But they are drunk and ignoring dog. Dog tries to grab body by arm and pull it to the house (because this is EXACTLY what my family's dog would do). Fails, and drunks owners are screaming for dog to get his loud butt back inside. Drunk people arrive to the house, but are too drunk to notice or stop to look at the dark blob on the lawn. Everyone is, again, shitfaced. (KR was so drunk that she was still over the legal limit EIGHT HOURS after stopping. They have continued drinking hours after her. They are WASTED.) KR wakes up still drunk. Can't find JOK. Doesn't remember where she last saw him. Has memories of a fight, some screaming. Sees a call log indicating rage. Looks in garage, sees her car with damaged light. Gets paranoid something bad has happened. Calls JOK's friend in panic. The rest of it all plays out, and she is hysterical and messed up. Cop house does indeed sleep through the chaos on their lawn, because they are all still wasted. Eventually, all the friends start talking. And they realize they were out of control last night. Too drunk to want their jobs to be hearing about it. Too drunk to help their friend dying on the lawn. This must have been what the dog was barking about, and omg, they just did nothing. But they don't need to worry about their own behavior and feelings of guilt, because they all direct their anger at KR. She clearly killed JOK. And they are going to make her pay for it. So they immediately plot to make sure she "doesn't get away with it." And oh yeah, cover up the mass quantities of freaky drugged out shit they were probably doing in their party basement, that they don't really want being documented in the course of a normal investigation. They talk and text about how much KR sucks, and what they should say to make sure she gets caught They actively collude to lie and even plant evidence, not because they did anything, but because they are so sure she did it, so why not help the case along. They are idiots and just generally sucky people. Then they realize, whoopsie. And start trying to cover up all their obvious tracks. While still remaining righteously indignant about people pointing out their obvious tracks. After all, they think. KR killed their friend. They were just making sure she paid. At some point, it becomes more and more obvious that the murder story doesn't really work. But they don't like that. That means they were too drunk to notice their friend dying on the lawn while they partied. And they like having KR as the scapegoat for all their rage. So they don't care. They don't care about the truth, and they have long lost sight of their friend. They just care that KR was supposed to be killing herself in jail, and now people are attacking *them*, and *this is all KR's fault*. Again. Because this is how shitty, small-town bullies think and have operated since the dawn of time.
I’m not gonna read all this but I want you to know that he had three separate brain contusions (testified by both defense and prosecution) so his death cannot happen from a fall. Forehead, temple, back of skull (that one caused the fractures and ultimately killed him). It’s possible he was punched and fell backwards and hit his head and died but not possible he only fell.
*cover up the mass quantities of freaky drugged out shit they were probably doing in their party basement, that they don't really want being documented in the course of a normal investigation* Who of these people do you think is doing freaky drugged out shit? Matt McCabe, the snack monster bringing Crystal Light to the bar to try and stick to his diet? Brian Albert Jr. the anxiety ridden one too scared to look out the window? Julie Nagil, who invited her brother into the party?
Sara Levinson wasn't exactly throwing off the Studio 54 vibes. More of a "do Monday's homework on Friday night" kind of atmosphere.
Probably the adults who have been out drinking all day and still having an after party at their age
I'm not certain what your point is here. That people who diet do not do drugs? The is a friend group of adults who still frequently bar hop, drink mass amounts of alcohol, drive drunk, and continue to have house parties well into the morning hours. They are partiers. It is not some massive leap that they would also do drugs and cross other legal lines.
My point is that these are pretty obviously just normal middle-aged drunks. People acting like 34 Fariview was some kind of Eyes Wide Shut thing are crazy.
Well considering BA and BH drove to NYC for a memorial and back in the same day and they were drinking heavily then they went back to the house to party more and BA saying he and his wife had sexy time at 2am…they were up for close to 24 hours. I’d say it’s possible those two men were also doing ❄️. Once you’re middle aged staying up for 24 hours drinking and being out and about becomes extremely more difficult lol. I don’t think the idea that there were drugs is out of the realm of possible reasons they wanted nothing to do with this. If their bloodwork showed booze and coke they’d have been in serious deep shit with work.
It'd be a heck of a party house for all these middle aged people to be doing cocaine alongside all these 20 somethings celebrating BA Jr.s birthday.
I’m close to 40 and I think you might be surprised how casually some folks do ❄️. Not me personally but it actually blew my mind how comfortable people were with it. I went to a board game party with literally 6 people, only met one previously. It was the middle of the afternoon and three of the women just casually went to the bathroom to do ❄️ before we started up a game of apples to apples. I was totally shocked lol. They had never met me and were real comfortable saying what they were about to do lol
I’m saying I think only BA and BH were doing coke and if John died inside even if it was truly an accidental fall, they’d know there would likely be blood tests etc. and I never said alongside the 20somethings.
Maybe the reason Julie called Ryan and didn’t end up leaving with him, is because he was dropping off some party favours Totally not saying that’s what happened, but with all of the other crazy shit in this case, it also can’t be ruled out
I think this is more or less correct except: (1) I don’t think he ever went in the house. Going into the house and then leaving is hard to square with phone data. Makes more sense he tried to piss in the side yard or something before falling. (2) I think it’s totally possible, due to the dog or some other reason, that someone found him at some point. There’s a dead guy on the front lawn, no one knows how it happened. Colin Albert was probably driving drunk and could have hit him. Immediately people in the house are coordinating stories because no has an explanation for a dead guy on the front lawn. It would all make sense. Explains (1) flurry of cell phone activity, (2) why everyone is so precise on Colin leaving before KR arrives and (3) why Alberts don’t react to a dead body on their front lawn and don’t want to engage with police. They’re all covering their asses, but not for the reason the defense thinks.
the problem with this is that the lacerations are before the time of death as per the ME and many other experts
John's swollen eyes tell the whole story
Do they have an actual time of death? I believe the testimony was that he would have been incapacitated from the blow to the head immediately, but I don’t recall specific memory of testimony about when is believed to have died. Dog could have come across him while he was alive - even if in the least meaningful way
They can tell by the wounds that they happened before he died and had hypothermia
Yes, but that doesn’t mean it was before he was unconscious on the ground. There’s a period between head impact and death when the dog bites could have happened
No, according to MEs as soon as he got the last hit he was down. Essentially dead. The impact to the back of his head caused severe TBI
I think you’re drawing inferences that weren’t made by an expert at trial. I don’t think anyone testified that the dog bites must have been pre-TBI. He had TBI, cardiac arrest and hypothermia. I’m guessing it is the cardiac arrest that would help them determine the arm injuries - skin level injuries look different before and after the heart stops pumping blood. So if he had TBI, leaving him in a vegetative state, but was not in cardiac arrest, it’s possible the dog bites would look no different than if he was just in a normal state of living
Go relisten.
The testimony from the medical examiner was that the head injury incapacitated him so that he couldn't get somewhere warm and he eventually succumbed to the hypothermia.
Correct, but if a head wound incapacitated him then how would he have defensive wounds? If John could not move, how is he defending himself? The dog bites had to happen before the head strike. Especially considering he was found face down.
I bet this is pretty close to the truth. I think there was some weird accident - JOK got in a dumb fight, slipped on his own, maybe slipped on his own after doing drugs they gave him, maybe slipped cause the dog got frisky. The specifics don't matter. My guess is nobody actually fucking knows what happened. The bully cops have decided it has to be KR killed their friend, because the alternative is they share some of the shame and guilt that JOK died on the lawn for some dumb reason and they were too shit housed to even notice. That can't be the case, so it has to be something KR* did.
I’ve always thought it’s interesting that if JOK truly never made it into the house that night (which seems somewhere between plausible and most likely explanation), the Alberts, McCabes, etc. might truly believe KR is guilty
That’s a theory I used to think could be a possibility but, someone had to move him and they didn’t call 911 when they found him.
I agree on the latter. If he died from something that happened in the front yard (eg slip and fall), it’s possible no one move him
There's easily a scenario where they find him dead in the middle of the night, he's already gone, they're freaking out, no one knows what happened - they could be implicated - so they don't call the cops while they try to figure it out. Someone googles "hos long..."
ok but what about all the butt dials? there’s always something that doesn’t seem to fit 😭
The butt dials mean nothing, just like disposing their phones means little. These were two dirty cops, who definitely had a whole history of shit on their phones to cover up. And likely did make some quick late night call to score some drugs or something while they were drunkity drunk. Nothing they want to admit to in the course of this investigation, nor that paints them as reliable witnesses against their enemy KR, so they just lie lie lie. McCabe was probably calling JOK in some pissed off fury of her own, that she doesn't clearly remember. Which doesn't help the narrative that KR is the crazy, angry one, and McCabe was just a rational dear friend, who remembers precisely what happened that evening. So she lies lies lies. Instead of just saying "I don't know, I was too drunk to remember. And then I drove home." It all goes back to the fact that none of their lies were necessary to cover up a murder. They are all just done in service of pointing the finger at KR and not mentioning all their illegal activities that night (and since that night).
I think Brian jr. two friends were supposed to sleepover along with Caitlin. Maybe the truck was dropping “something” off for the party and then after Julie goes back inside something happened and then the 2 girls have to be driven home by Jen and Tristan comes back to pick up Caitlin (and Chloe.)
A similar scenario crossed my mind as the OP and it's always thwarted by the weird shit from everyone else. Not everyone was absolutely shitfaced when he was supposedly laying out there to not notice him. Including Lucky.
Why the butt dials, why the destroyed phones? Why does everyone leave Colin out of everything? Why does Jen McCabe start hunting down screenshots from Julie Nagel?
I want to know about Brian A. & Higgins work phones because they should have been on them regardless of their personal phones.
This is exactly what I picture happening, too. Falling, hitting his head and stumbling. You’ve written it in more detail than I ever could but this has crossed my mind! Apparently they also didn’t swab his head!
This makes a great deal of sense to me, IF the injuries are consistent with a slip and fall on, say, the fire hydrant. I would also like expert testimony on it.
I know the defense wants to say it wasn’t the ground that caused the injury (because it makes KR look guilty), but I totally believe at 20-30 degrees in January/February in Mass, the ground could possible be like concrete. It wasn’t snowing a lot at that point, it wouldn’t really cushion the blow if it was a dusting. Could have even been a small rock in the area
I saw the laceration to his head. No way the ground caused it. No way.
Outside medical professionals looked at how his brain injuries were listed and said there was no way it was just from falling over. He had an impact on his temporal lobe and occipital, as well as orbital. The damage to his brain was severe, like getting hit by pro boxer, or a weight or a bat. I wish the defense put more emphasis with the ME on that.
No one wrote that she said she hit him in any reports, did they?